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CNN Crossfire

Political Fallout From Deadly Day in Iraq

Aired November 03, 2003 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.

In the CROSSFIRE: the political fallout from one of America's deadliest days in Iraq.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The enemy in Iraq believes America will run. America will never run.

ANNOUNCER: Is America winning the war? Should there be a change in strategy?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The United States made a serious miscalculation.

ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(APPLAUSE)

ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

(APPLAUSE)

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Another U.S. soldier died in Iraq this afternoon when his vehicle hit a land mine. There was a mortar attack in Baghdad after dark. And, of course, 16 of our brave soldiers died Sunday when their helicopter was shot down.

Today's debate, is the U.S. winning the war?

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: As President Bush has reminded us all along, the war isn't over, even though the U.S. is winning it. We'll try again to get some realistic Democratic alternatives right after the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

Senator Bob Graham of Florida dropped out of the Democratic race for president last month. But today, he was supposed to announce for a fourth term in the Senate as an overwhelming favorite. But he didn't. Bob Graham today became the fourth Southern Democratic senator not to run next year. That gives the Republicans a leg up for picking up Senate seats in North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, and now Florida.

The solid South is becoming solidly Republican. Senator Graham went a little over the top trying to run for president, but he's been an able public servant for more than 30 years. Graham for vice president? The Democrats could do worse. And they undoubtedly will.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: Senator Graham was on Al Gore's short list. He should be on anybody's short list. He has been a remarkable public servant. You're right about that. I admire your willingness to tip your hat to a great Democrat.

And he'll go down in history as a guy who was absolutely right about this war in the way our president was not. He said that Saddam was no threat to us. He said that a war there would distract us from al Qaeda. He said there was poor planning for occupation afterwards. He was right all the way down the line. And I think he deserves our credit.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Aren't you a little worried about the fact that the Democrats are losing their...

(BELL RINGING)

NOVAK: ... all the Democratic senators in the South?

BEGALA: Yes, we should do a whole show about this. I think we would have different prescriptions for it.

Well, tomorrow is Election Day. And a pattern is emerging. In Mississippi, President Bush campaigned for cigarette lobbyist Haley Barbour, who's running for governor. Barbour had earlier posed for a picture with leaders of a group that the Anti-Defamation League says is racist. And he's refused to ask the group to remove his photo from their hate-filled Web site.

In Kentucky, Republicans are promising to challenge voters in heavily Democratic precincts, a tactic civil rights leaders say is racial intimidation. And in Philadelphia, someone has planted a bug in the office of Democratic Mayor John Street, who is up for reelect. Now, if these tactics don't work out, then maybe the Republicans will have to start fighting dirty.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: The off-year elections haven't even been held yet and Paul Begala is trotting out his excuses.

In Mississippi, Republican Haley Barbour has disowned that segregationist organization that Paul is talking about. The governor of Mississippi, who won't even advertise that he's a Democrat, outrageously, accuses Barbour of poisoning kids. In Kentucky, the Democratic candidate is losing big because of corruption by the current Democratic governor. That's two more major Republican wins in prospect.

In Philadelphia, the Democratic mayor's office was bugged by the FBI, Paul, to investigate you have to pay the play rule in city hall. Now, voters in Philadelphia may tolerate corruption. But, elsewhere, tomorrow looks like another bummer for the Democrats.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Well, why? You mentioned that. Why have Democrats done so poorly over the last 40 years in the South? Well, we used to win all the elections in the South. Now we lose a whole lot of them. A whole lot has to do with the fact that Lyndon Johnson moved my party from being a racist party, which was our bad past, into being for a party for civil rights. And a whole lot of the people in the South didn't like that. It's my South. I love the South desperately.

But that's what changed all this. The Democrats came out for civil rights and some of the old-line segregationists didn't like it and they switched to the Republican Party.

(APPLAUSE)

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: That was 40 years ago. All those things are over, Paul. What they don't like is...

(BELL RINGING)

NOVAK: ... is gun control, pro-abortion, social left-wing gay marriage. That's why the Democrats are losing in

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: The Schwarzenegger agenda, in other words.

(LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Well, the right-wing Republicans who are protesting what they see as an inaccurate portrayal of President Reagan in a new movie have gained an unlikely ally, the senior most Democrat in the House, Congressman John Dingell. In a letter to CBS president Les Moonves, Dingell points out that, to be accurate, the movie should include the following, reading now from Dingell's press release -- quote -- "$640 Pentagon toilet seats, ketchup as a vegetable, union busting, Iran- Contra, selling arms to terrorist nations, trading arms for hostages, retreating from terrorists in Beirut, lying to Congress, financing an illegal war in Nicaragua, visiting Bitburg cemetery, a cozy relationship with Saddam Hussein, shredding documents, apartheid apologia, Savings and Loan scandal, voodoo economics, record budget deficit, double digit unemployment, farm bankruptcies, trade deficits, astrologers in the White House, and Star Wars and influence peddling."

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: That's the Reagan legacy that John Dingell sees.

NOVAK: Paul, you know that John Dingell is the only member of Congress who's been here longer than I have. But I think maybe he's been here too long, because that was a stupid and senseless thing to do.

Ronald Reagan is about to meet his maker. He is dying. He has Alzheimer's. He is dying. He is a beloved congressman who won the Cold War, revived the economy, restored American morale. And shame on John Dingell for putting out a silly letter like that.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: You notice he didn't dispute any of these particulars. Well, we've debated that.

President Bush says America will do whatever is necessary to make our country more secure. In a minute, we'll ask if that includes telling the truth about the quagmire he's gotten us into in Iraq.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: In Alabama today, President Bush told a crowd that the enemy in Iraq believes that America will run. That's why they're willing to kill innocent civilians, relief workers, and coalition troops. The president added, "America will never run." I might add, unless, of course, Dennis Kucinich wins the White House.

In the CROSSFIRE to debate how the war is going, Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky Democrat of Illinois. She joins us from Chicago. And Congressman Mike Pence, Republican of Indiana.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Congresswoman Schakowsky, Congressman Pence, thank you both for joining us.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: First, let me say, I absolutely agree with our president when he says America will never run. I certainly hope he's right. And I believe that he's right.

REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: You bet.

BEGALA: But I heard our secretary of defense on "This Week" with George Stephanopoulos asked about this. Let me just play what he said and ask for a comment. Here's Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THIS WEEK") DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: In a long hard war, we're going to have tragic days, as this is. But they're necessary. They're part of a war that's difficult and complicated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: Now, that's an attitude that does make some Americans think we ought to just get the heck out. It bespeaks arrogance. To say that it's necessary, when we lost no troops occupying Germany, Japan, or Kosovo? Clearly, we have a flawed plan and we have a secretary of defense and an administration that is too arrogant to change it, don't we, Congressman?

PENCE: Well, I think -- actually, I disagree with that strongly, Paul.

I think what you see in the words of the secretary of defense, and what Jan and I, frankly, have heard on Capitol Hill literally since the inception of Operation Iraqi Freedom, is candor. It is refreshing candor, that we are in a part of the world that, in the words of the secretary in that now famed memo, is going to be a long, hard slog.

But I think the choice here is clear, Paul, whether we're going to stay and we're going to deliver freedom and stability to the people of Iraq, or whether we're going to do what we did 20 years go under, sadly, a Republican administration. And that is, we're going to be hit like we were in Beirut. We're going to pull out and we're going to leave a generation of mess and a beehive for terrorism behind.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: ... necessary? Again, when we had successful occupations in Germany, in Japan, and in Kosovo, why does our secretary just throw up his hands and say, it's just necessary that a whole lot of our young men and women have to die? I don't agree. Why doesn't he get a smarter, better plan, more troops, different troops, more allies, do something different to save these young men's lives?

(APPLAUSE)

PENCE: And I'll tell you, as a member of Congress that's had to pick up the phone and call some parents in Hagerstown, Indiana, with that news, I can tell you that my heart longs for the day that we will be able to leave this country behind with peace and freedom and security and stability.

But the reality is that our enemies are hoping precisely, Paul, that we'll have the attitude that, frankly, you're reflecting and giving voice today, that we will

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: That we need to win? That's my attitude.

(CROSSTALK) PENCE: That will we see 16 Americans lost and that we'll cut and run. Unacceptable. We must not fail.

NOVAK: Congresswoman Schakowsky.

SEN. JAN SCHAKOWSKY (D), ILLINOIS: Yes.

NOVAK: I want to -- listen -- I want you to listen to a different point of view. And I don't want to give you some Republican or administration official. I want to give you a Democrat, not only a Democrat, but a Democrat that Paul Begala managed his campaigns to be elected governor. And that is Senator Zell Miller of Georgia. Listen to what Senator Miller said yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP);

SEN. ZELL MILLER (D), GEORGIA: Any time some of these Democratic candidates who are putting their own partisan politics ahead of the country and saying some of the things that they are saying, you know, whenever Saddam Hussein reads that or Osama bin Laden hears that, that they must be high-fiving one another.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Do you worry about that, Congresswoman, what you say and what Dennis Kucinich says and the other get-out people, what that does to our enemies, how that encourages them?

SCHAKOWSKY: You know, here we go, Bob, the drumbeat that says that anybody who disagrees with the president in what is clearly a failed policy, poor planning, wishful thinking, is somehow then aiding and abetting the enemy.

That is such a dangerous kind of statement and allegation to make. What we are saying is that we support our troops. We support the goal of peace in this world. And we think that this president has taken us on a very dangerous course, getting into the war in the first place, a preemptive strike and now his utter inability to plan and to get us out of there in a way that makes Iraq a democracy. This has been a failure. We should say it.

(APPLAUSE)

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Congresswoman, when you say the troops ought to get out now, or soon...

SCHAKOWSKY: No, I have never said that.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: When do you want the troops to get out, then?

SCHAKOWSKY: Look, we need to make sure that we have a successful outcome in Iraq. I agree with that. How do we get there? The president said he has the right strategy.

NOVAK: You want the terror to stay, then?

SCHAKOWSKY: Here's what we should do.

First of all, I say, let's get rid of Donald Rumsfeld. He's about as successful in handling the war as the president is in creating jobs.

(APPLAUSE)

SCHAKOWSKY: We have to get rid of that leadership.

NOVAK: You want the troops to say -- can you answer that? I asked you three times. Do you want the troops to stay or go? Stay or go?

SCHAKOWSKY: We need more troops. And that includes U.N. and allied troops.

NOVAK: You won't answer the question.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHAKOWSKY: And that would include the Iraqis.

Do we need more personnel on the ground? I think we do. Does it necessarily have to be more American troops? No. We need to internationalize this. And that means giving more power to our allies in the postwar situation.

PENCE: Jan, if I can interject here, there are 30,000 troops from our coalition partners on the ground. We've gone from zero Iraqi troops in uniform on May 1 to 100,000 Iraqis in uniform today. We've actually reduced our troops from 150,000 to 130,000.

I honestly don't understand the criticism of suggesting that we're going in the wrong direction in terms of bringing the family of nations and the people of Iraq to bear on this challenge.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Well, here's what makes a lot of people think it's going in the wrong direction. It's comment like that. In the face of the worst day of casualties that we've had since the president declared major combat operations had ended six months ago, there's still no recognition that the plan we have is failing.

See, the argument -- we're talking past each other.

(CROSSTALK)

PENCE: What's the definition of failure? Resistance?

BEGALA: No, definition of failure is losing a kid a day and $1 billion a week, Congressman, when we could have a different plan, the way we did in Kosovo.

NOVAK: Those are not kids. They're troops. They're troops. They're not kids.

BEGALA: They're heroic young men.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Don't call them kids. They're troops.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: They are young men in harm's way, and young women, increasingly.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHAKOWSKY: They are our kids, our daughters and our sons. They are our children who are there. And we do need a better plan. Of course we need a plan.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: You remember, Congresswoman, when I asked you on April 7 if you weren't thrilled by the performance of our troops in removing the tyrant, Saddam Hussein? I asked you four times on April 7, some of them from the Chicago area. You would not say you were thrilled, because you said they had brought death and destruction to Iraq.

Do you remember me telling you that?

SCHAKOWSKY: Do you remember, Bob Novak, when you were opposing the U.S. entry into Iraq and invading Iraq? Do you remember that?

NOVAK: I'm saying, do you remember saying that that was death and destruction? Do you?

(CROSSTALK)

PENCE: Let me tell you, Paul, if I can back to the question you were asking me before this brawl, look...

BEGALA: The question is whether we have the right plan.

(CROSSTALK)

PENCE: Well, whether we have the right plan or whether this is in fact a failure.

And, Jan, I respect you immensely, but I don't understand the definition of failure here. We executed a plan in Operation Iraqi Freedom that was virtually flawless. We had very minimal civilian casualties. We literally took down Iraqi divisions in historic numbers in a historic period of time. We have troops on the ground. And the overwhelming majority of this country is peaceful and secure. The Sunni Triangle, we are faced with leftover Baathist members and terrorists coming into the country. I don't understand the definition of failure because there are people on the ground that want to kill Americans and disrupt the transition to peace and democracy.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHAKOWSKY: I would happily explain failure to you. And that would be an increase in the sophistication and the effectiveness of the opposition forces, no real plan for how we get out, the increasing number of American young men and women being killed over there, no democracy coming, sabotage daily on oil wells and the electrical system, lack of security, increased lack of security in Iraq right now.

To say that's it's a success, to use the words of John McCain, is, duh, as my kids would say.

(APPLAUSE)

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: In fact, Senator Chuck Hagel, himself a decorated combat veteran, said that we had done -- the Bush administration did a miserable job -- I'm quoting him -- a miserable job of planning for post-Saddam Iraq.

PENCE: Well, and I disagree strongly with Senator Hagel on that.

But I also disagree with Jan today. The characterization that our security has become more lax, that we're losing troops in increasing number, the truth is that, despite a horrific day on Sunday, where we lost 16 soldiers in an attack on a Chinook helicopter, we've actually begun to see our offensive operations begin to succeeded within the Sunni Triangle, Paul.

And we're also beginning to see greater effectiveness in terms of intercepting terrorist attacks. We intercepted the Syrian with the car bomb and stopped him before he could do any damage. Even in the last several hours, the mortar fire in Baghdad reported no casualties, no impacts, thuds, and no reports of damage.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Congresswoman Schakowsky, hold that thought just a minute, because we're going to come back after this break for our "Rapid Fire" segment. And I'm going to ask Congressman Pence why some say that the Bush administration is in fact dishonoring the sacrifice of our heroic war dead.

And, right after the break, Wolf Blitzer will have the very latest on today's attack in Iraq.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

BEGALA: It is six months and two days since our president stood under that banner declaring mission accomplished. And yet, the postwar death toll now dwarfs the number killed in full-scale combat.

In the CROSSFIRE to debate Iraq policy, Democratic Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky and Indiana Republican Congressman Mike Pence.

NOVAK: Congressman, the ABC/"Washington Post" poll shows that Americans feel that troops in Iraq are part of the war on terrorism, 61 percent yes, 37 percent no. Do you agree with the American people on that?

SCHAKOWSKY: Well, I agree with the American people when 51 percent of them say that they believe that this president is mishandling the war in Iraq.

That's the first time since it began that the majority of Americans do not say that the president is handling this war -- this situation well. That, I do agree with.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Excuse me, Congresswoman. Sorry about that.

Congressman Pence, shouldn't the Bush administration reverse its policy and allow us to publicly honor our war dead as they return in caskets?

PENCE: I'm going to agree with you once this year, Paul, on this issue...

(LAUGHTER)

PENCE: ... and say that we ought to lift the curtain and we ought to be willing to receive these fallen soldiers home. I thought the president's comments today in Kentucky were a part of that reflection. I expect we'll see some modification of that policy.

NOVAK: Congresswoman, since Dennis Kucinich, your colleague in the Democratic caucus from Ohio, wants to pull out the troops tomorrow, why don't you endorse him for president? You haven't endorsed anybody yet.

SCHAKOWSKY: I haven't endorsed anybody yet. I think that it is a good thing that all of the Democratic candidates right now are, in fact, raising serious questions. Most are critical of the president and the administration's handling of the situation in Iraq. And I am not, Bob, calling for withdrawal of the troops from Iraq.

NOVAK: You want them to stay, then.

BEGALA: (AUDIO GAP) He wants more troops in. Do you agree with him?

(BELL RINGING)

PENCE: On this point, I don't. I am going to defer to General John Abizaid and the secretary of defense.

NOVAK: Out of time.

Congressman Pence, thank you very much. Congresswoman Schakowsky, thank you.

Tomorrow is Election Day. But we'd like to know which Democratic presidential candidate was first elected to the U.S. Senate on this very date in 1992. Was it Carol Moseley Braun, John Edwards, or John Kerry?

And one of our viewers thinks he knows what I would consider a perfect day. He really doesn't, but we'll let him fire back anyway.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

Time now for "Fireback."

Before the break, we asked you which of these presidential candidates was first elected to the United States Senate on this date in 1992, the date that was Bill Clinton was elected president, by the way. And the answer, the audience is right, Carol Moseley Braun, 40 percent. This is a very smart audience. You all got it right. She is now running for the presidency. She was the first African-American elected to the Senate on this day in 1992.

NOVAK: OK. Our first "Fireback" is from Mickey Hubbert of Denton, Texas: "Bob, why do I get the impression that your idea of a perfect day includes going by the unemployment office, telling people to get a job, then chasing the nasty invectives with a mint julep at your neighborhood country club?"

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: Well, Mickey, baby, let me tell you something. I don't belong to a country club. I don't drink mint juleps. But I do think people should work for a living. And Democrats of your ilk disagree with me.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: Democrats believe in jobs. That's why we create so many when we have a Democratic president.

Roger of Dayton, Ohio, writes: "Using the Bush formula, that more attacks on U.S. troops means more success of his Iraq insurgency, this weekend had way more success than I can stand. Bring 'em home, not bring 'em on."

That's an increasing view out there. NOVAK: OK, William Schwarz of Midlothian, Virginia, says: "It's interesting to see these Democrats destroying their careers in the Senate so that they can try and stay to the left of Dr. Dean. First Edwards talks his way into never being electable in North Carolina, and now Graham. Pity, huh?"

Mr. Schwarz, that's a real problem for these Democrats.

BEGALA: Not as big a problem as the problem our president has gotten us into Iraq. The Democrats will get us out.

From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak.

Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

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Aired November 3, 2003 - 16:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.

In the CROSSFIRE: the political fallout from one of America's deadliest days in Iraq.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The enemy in Iraq believes America will run. America will never run.

ANNOUNCER: Is America winning the war? Should there be a change in strategy?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The United States made a serious miscalculation.

ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(APPLAUSE)

ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

(APPLAUSE)

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Another U.S. soldier died in Iraq this afternoon when his vehicle hit a land mine. There was a mortar attack in Baghdad after dark. And, of course, 16 of our brave soldiers died Sunday when their helicopter was shot down.

Today's debate, is the U.S. winning the war?

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: As President Bush has reminded us all along, the war isn't over, even though the U.S. is winning it. We'll try again to get some realistic Democratic alternatives right after the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

Senator Bob Graham of Florida dropped out of the Democratic race for president last month. But today, he was supposed to announce for a fourth term in the Senate as an overwhelming favorite. But he didn't. Bob Graham today became the fourth Southern Democratic senator not to run next year. That gives the Republicans a leg up for picking up Senate seats in North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, and now Florida.

The solid South is becoming solidly Republican. Senator Graham went a little over the top trying to run for president, but he's been an able public servant for more than 30 years. Graham for vice president? The Democrats could do worse. And they undoubtedly will.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: Senator Graham was on Al Gore's short list. He should be on anybody's short list. He has been a remarkable public servant. You're right about that. I admire your willingness to tip your hat to a great Democrat.

And he'll go down in history as a guy who was absolutely right about this war in the way our president was not. He said that Saddam was no threat to us. He said that a war there would distract us from al Qaeda. He said there was poor planning for occupation afterwards. He was right all the way down the line. And I think he deserves our credit.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Aren't you a little worried about the fact that the Democrats are losing their...

(BELL RINGING)

NOVAK: ... all the Democratic senators in the South?

BEGALA: Yes, we should do a whole show about this. I think we would have different prescriptions for it.

Well, tomorrow is Election Day. And a pattern is emerging. In Mississippi, President Bush campaigned for cigarette lobbyist Haley Barbour, who's running for governor. Barbour had earlier posed for a picture with leaders of a group that the Anti-Defamation League says is racist. And he's refused to ask the group to remove his photo from their hate-filled Web site.

In Kentucky, Republicans are promising to challenge voters in heavily Democratic precincts, a tactic civil rights leaders say is racial intimidation. And in Philadelphia, someone has planted a bug in the office of Democratic Mayor John Street, who is up for reelect. Now, if these tactics don't work out, then maybe the Republicans will have to start fighting dirty.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: The off-year elections haven't even been held yet and Paul Begala is trotting out his excuses.

In Mississippi, Republican Haley Barbour has disowned that segregationist organization that Paul is talking about. The governor of Mississippi, who won't even advertise that he's a Democrat, outrageously, accuses Barbour of poisoning kids. In Kentucky, the Democratic candidate is losing big because of corruption by the current Democratic governor. That's two more major Republican wins in prospect.

In Philadelphia, the Democratic mayor's office was bugged by the FBI, Paul, to investigate you have to pay the play rule in city hall. Now, voters in Philadelphia may tolerate corruption. But, elsewhere, tomorrow looks like another bummer for the Democrats.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Well, why? You mentioned that. Why have Democrats done so poorly over the last 40 years in the South? Well, we used to win all the elections in the South. Now we lose a whole lot of them. A whole lot has to do with the fact that Lyndon Johnson moved my party from being a racist party, which was our bad past, into being for a party for civil rights. And a whole lot of the people in the South didn't like that. It's my South. I love the South desperately.

But that's what changed all this. The Democrats came out for civil rights and some of the old-line segregationists didn't like it and they switched to the Republican Party.

(APPLAUSE)

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: That was 40 years ago. All those things are over, Paul. What they don't like is...

(BELL RINGING)

NOVAK: ... is gun control, pro-abortion, social left-wing gay marriage. That's why the Democrats are losing in

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: The Schwarzenegger agenda, in other words.

(LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Well, the right-wing Republicans who are protesting what they see as an inaccurate portrayal of President Reagan in a new movie have gained an unlikely ally, the senior most Democrat in the House, Congressman John Dingell. In a letter to CBS president Les Moonves, Dingell points out that, to be accurate, the movie should include the following, reading now from Dingell's press release -- quote -- "$640 Pentagon toilet seats, ketchup as a vegetable, union busting, Iran- Contra, selling arms to terrorist nations, trading arms for hostages, retreating from terrorists in Beirut, lying to Congress, financing an illegal war in Nicaragua, visiting Bitburg cemetery, a cozy relationship with Saddam Hussein, shredding documents, apartheid apologia, Savings and Loan scandal, voodoo economics, record budget deficit, double digit unemployment, farm bankruptcies, trade deficits, astrologers in the White House, and Star Wars and influence peddling."

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: That's the Reagan legacy that John Dingell sees.

NOVAK: Paul, you know that John Dingell is the only member of Congress who's been here longer than I have. But I think maybe he's been here too long, because that was a stupid and senseless thing to do.

Ronald Reagan is about to meet his maker. He is dying. He has Alzheimer's. He is dying. He is a beloved congressman who won the Cold War, revived the economy, restored American morale. And shame on John Dingell for putting out a silly letter like that.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: You notice he didn't dispute any of these particulars. Well, we've debated that.

President Bush says America will do whatever is necessary to make our country more secure. In a minute, we'll ask if that includes telling the truth about the quagmire he's gotten us into in Iraq.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: In Alabama today, President Bush told a crowd that the enemy in Iraq believes that America will run. That's why they're willing to kill innocent civilians, relief workers, and coalition troops. The president added, "America will never run." I might add, unless, of course, Dennis Kucinich wins the White House.

In the CROSSFIRE to debate how the war is going, Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky Democrat of Illinois. She joins us from Chicago. And Congressman Mike Pence, Republican of Indiana.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Congresswoman Schakowsky, Congressman Pence, thank you both for joining us.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: First, let me say, I absolutely agree with our president when he says America will never run. I certainly hope he's right. And I believe that he's right.

REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: You bet.

BEGALA: But I heard our secretary of defense on "This Week" with George Stephanopoulos asked about this. Let me just play what he said and ask for a comment. Here's Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THIS WEEK") DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: In a long hard war, we're going to have tragic days, as this is. But they're necessary. They're part of a war that's difficult and complicated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: Now, that's an attitude that does make some Americans think we ought to just get the heck out. It bespeaks arrogance. To say that it's necessary, when we lost no troops occupying Germany, Japan, or Kosovo? Clearly, we have a flawed plan and we have a secretary of defense and an administration that is too arrogant to change it, don't we, Congressman?

PENCE: Well, I think -- actually, I disagree with that strongly, Paul.

I think what you see in the words of the secretary of defense, and what Jan and I, frankly, have heard on Capitol Hill literally since the inception of Operation Iraqi Freedom, is candor. It is refreshing candor, that we are in a part of the world that, in the words of the secretary in that now famed memo, is going to be a long, hard slog.

But I think the choice here is clear, Paul, whether we're going to stay and we're going to deliver freedom and stability to the people of Iraq, or whether we're going to do what we did 20 years go under, sadly, a Republican administration. And that is, we're going to be hit like we were in Beirut. We're going to pull out and we're going to leave a generation of mess and a beehive for terrorism behind.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: ... necessary? Again, when we had successful occupations in Germany, in Japan, and in Kosovo, why does our secretary just throw up his hands and say, it's just necessary that a whole lot of our young men and women have to die? I don't agree. Why doesn't he get a smarter, better plan, more troops, different troops, more allies, do something different to save these young men's lives?

(APPLAUSE)

PENCE: And I'll tell you, as a member of Congress that's had to pick up the phone and call some parents in Hagerstown, Indiana, with that news, I can tell you that my heart longs for the day that we will be able to leave this country behind with peace and freedom and security and stability.

But the reality is that our enemies are hoping precisely, Paul, that we'll have the attitude that, frankly, you're reflecting and giving voice today, that we will

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: That we need to win? That's my attitude.

(CROSSTALK) PENCE: That will we see 16 Americans lost and that we'll cut and run. Unacceptable. We must not fail.

NOVAK: Congresswoman Schakowsky.

SEN. JAN SCHAKOWSKY (D), ILLINOIS: Yes.

NOVAK: I want to -- listen -- I want you to listen to a different point of view. And I don't want to give you some Republican or administration official. I want to give you a Democrat, not only a Democrat, but a Democrat that Paul Begala managed his campaigns to be elected governor. And that is Senator Zell Miller of Georgia. Listen to what Senator Miller said yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP);

SEN. ZELL MILLER (D), GEORGIA: Any time some of these Democratic candidates who are putting their own partisan politics ahead of the country and saying some of the things that they are saying, you know, whenever Saddam Hussein reads that or Osama bin Laden hears that, that they must be high-fiving one another.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Do you worry about that, Congresswoman, what you say and what Dennis Kucinich says and the other get-out people, what that does to our enemies, how that encourages them?

SCHAKOWSKY: You know, here we go, Bob, the drumbeat that says that anybody who disagrees with the president in what is clearly a failed policy, poor planning, wishful thinking, is somehow then aiding and abetting the enemy.

That is such a dangerous kind of statement and allegation to make. What we are saying is that we support our troops. We support the goal of peace in this world. And we think that this president has taken us on a very dangerous course, getting into the war in the first place, a preemptive strike and now his utter inability to plan and to get us out of there in a way that makes Iraq a democracy. This has been a failure. We should say it.

(APPLAUSE)

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Congresswoman, when you say the troops ought to get out now, or soon...

SCHAKOWSKY: No, I have never said that.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: When do you want the troops to get out, then?

SCHAKOWSKY: Look, we need to make sure that we have a successful outcome in Iraq. I agree with that. How do we get there? The president said he has the right strategy.

NOVAK: You want the terror to stay, then?

SCHAKOWSKY: Here's what we should do.

First of all, I say, let's get rid of Donald Rumsfeld. He's about as successful in handling the war as the president is in creating jobs.

(APPLAUSE)

SCHAKOWSKY: We have to get rid of that leadership.

NOVAK: You want the troops to say -- can you answer that? I asked you three times. Do you want the troops to stay or go? Stay or go?

SCHAKOWSKY: We need more troops. And that includes U.N. and allied troops.

NOVAK: You won't answer the question.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHAKOWSKY: And that would include the Iraqis.

Do we need more personnel on the ground? I think we do. Does it necessarily have to be more American troops? No. We need to internationalize this. And that means giving more power to our allies in the postwar situation.

PENCE: Jan, if I can interject here, there are 30,000 troops from our coalition partners on the ground. We've gone from zero Iraqi troops in uniform on May 1 to 100,000 Iraqis in uniform today. We've actually reduced our troops from 150,000 to 130,000.

I honestly don't understand the criticism of suggesting that we're going in the wrong direction in terms of bringing the family of nations and the people of Iraq to bear on this challenge.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Well, here's what makes a lot of people think it's going in the wrong direction. It's comment like that. In the face of the worst day of casualties that we've had since the president declared major combat operations had ended six months ago, there's still no recognition that the plan we have is failing.

See, the argument -- we're talking past each other.

(CROSSTALK)

PENCE: What's the definition of failure? Resistance?

BEGALA: No, definition of failure is losing a kid a day and $1 billion a week, Congressman, when we could have a different plan, the way we did in Kosovo.

NOVAK: Those are not kids. They're troops. They're troops. They're not kids.

BEGALA: They're heroic young men.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Don't call them kids. They're troops.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: They are young men in harm's way, and young women, increasingly.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHAKOWSKY: They are our kids, our daughters and our sons. They are our children who are there. And we do need a better plan. Of course we need a plan.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: You remember, Congresswoman, when I asked you on April 7 if you weren't thrilled by the performance of our troops in removing the tyrant, Saddam Hussein? I asked you four times on April 7, some of them from the Chicago area. You would not say you were thrilled, because you said they had brought death and destruction to Iraq.

Do you remember me telling you that?

SCHAKOWSKY: Do you remember, Bob Novak, when you were opposing the U.S. entry into Iraq and invading Iraq? Do you remember that?

NOVAK: I'm saying, do you remember saying that that was death and destruction? Do you?

(CROSSTALK)

PENCE: Let me tell you, Paul, if I can back to the question you were asking me before this brawl, look...

BEGALA: The question is whether we have the right plan.

(CROSSTALK)

PENCE: Well, whether we have the right plan or whether this is in fact a failure.

And, Jan, I respect you immensely, but I don't understand the definition of failure here. We executed a plan in Operation Iraqi Freedom that was virtually flawless. We had very minimal civilian casualties. We literally took down Iraqi divisions in historic numbers in a historic period of time. We have troops on the ground. And the overwhelming majority of this country is peaceful and secure. The Sunni Triangle, we are faced with leftover Baathist members and terrorists coming into the country. I don't understand the definition of failure because there are people on the ground that want to kill Americans and disrupt the transition to peace and democracy.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHAKOWSKY: I would happily explain failure to you. And that would be an increase in the sophistication and the effectiveness of the opposition forces, no real plan for how we get out, the increasing number of American young men and women being killed over there, no democracy coming, sabotage daily on oil wells and the electrical system, lack of security, increased lack of security in Iraq right now.

To say that's it's a success, to use the words of John McCain, is, duh, as my kids would say.

(APPLAUSE)

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: In fact, Senator Chuck Hagel, himself a decorated combat veteran, said that we had done -- the Bush administration did a miserable job -- I'm quoting him -- a miserable job of planning for post-Saddam Iraq.

PENCE: Well, and I disagree strongly with Senator Hagel on that.

But I also disagree with Jan today. The characterization that our security has become more lax, that we're losing troops in increasing number, the truth is that, despite a horrific day on Sunday, where we lost 16 soldiers in an attack on a Chinook helicopter, we've actually begun to see our offensive operations begin to succeeded within the Sunni Triangle, Paul.

And we're also beginning to see greater effectiveness in terms of intercepting terrorist attacks. We intercepted the Syrian with the car bomb and stopped him before he could do any damage. Even in the last several hours, the mortar fire in Baghdad reported no casualties, no impacts, thuds, and no reports of damage.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Congresswoman Schakowsky, hold that thought just a minute, because we're going to come back after this break for our "Rapid Fire" segment. And I'm going to ask Congressman Pence why some say that the Bush administration is in fact dishonoring the sacrifice of our heroic war dead.

And, right after the break, Wolf Blitzer will have the very latest on today's attack in Iraq.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

BEGALA: It is six months and two days since our president stood under that banner declaring mission accomplished. And yet, the postwar death toll now dwarfs the number killed in full-scale combat.

In the CROSSFIRE to debate Iraq policy, Democratic Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky and Indiana Republican Congressman Mike Pence.

NOVAK: Congressman, the ABC/"Washington Post" poll shows that Americans feel that troops in Iraq are part of the war on terrorism, 61 percent yes, 37 percent no. Do you agree with the American people on that?

SCHAKOWSKY: Well, I agree with the American people when 51 percent of them say that they believe that this president is mishandling the war in Iraq.

That's the first time since it began that the majority of Americans do not say that the president is handling this war -- this situation well. That, I do agree with.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Excuse me, Congresswoman. Sorry about that.

Congressman Pence, shouldn't the Bush administration reverse its policy and allow us to publicly honor our war dead as they return in caskets?

PENCE: I'm going to agree with you once this year, Paul, on this issue...

(LAUGHTER)

PENCE: ... and say that we ought to lift the curtain and we ought to be willing to receive these fallen soldiers home. I thought the president's comments today in Kentucky were a part of that reflection. I expect we'll see some modification of that policy.

NOVAK: Congresswoman, since Dennis Kucinich, your colleague in the Democratic caucus from Ohio, wants to pull out the troops tomorrow, why don't you endorse him for president? You haven't endorsed anybody yet.

SCHAKOWSKY: I haven't endorsed anybody yet. I think that it is a good thing that all of the Democratic candidates right now are, in fact, raising serious questions. Most are critical of the president and the administration's handling of the situation in Iraq. And I am not, Bob, calling for withdrawal of the troops from Iraq.

NOVAK: You want them to stay, then.

BEGALA: (AUDIO GAP) He wants more troops in. Do you agree with him?

(BELL RINGING)

PENCE: On this point, I don't. I am going to defer to General John Abizaid and the secretary of defense.

NOVAK: Out of time.

Congressman Pence, thank you very much. Congresswoman Schakowsky, thank you.

Tomorrow is Election Day. But we'd like to know which Democratic presidential candidate was first elected to the U.S. Senate on this very date in 1992. Was it Carol Moseley Braun, John Edwards, or John Kerry?

And one of our viewers thinks he knows what I would consider a perfect day. He really doesn't, but we'll let him fire back anyway.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

Time now for "Fireback."

Before the break, we asked you which of these presidential candidates was first elected to the United States Senate on this date in 1992, the date that was Bill Clinton was elected president, by the way. And the answer, the audience is right, Carol Moseley Braun, 40 percent. This is a very smart audience. You all got it right. She is now running for the presidency. She was the first African-American elected to the Senate on this day in 1992.

NOVAK: OK. Our first "Fireback" is from Mickey Hubbert of Denton, Texas: "Bob, why do I get the impression that your idea of a perfect day includes going by the unemployment office, telling people to get a job, then chasing the nasty invectives with a mint julep at your neighborhood country club?"

(LAUGHTER)

NOVAK: Well, Mickey, baby, let me tell you something. I don't belong to a country club. I don't drink mint juleps. But I do think people should work for a living. And Democrats of your ilk disagree with me.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: Democrats believe in jobs. That's why we create so many when we have a Democratic president.

Roger of Dayton, Ohio, writes: "Using the Bush formula, that more attacks on U.S. troops means more success of his Iraq insurgency, this weekend had way more success than I can stand. Bring 'em home, not bring 'em on."

That's an increasing view out there. NOVAK: OK, William Schwarz of Midlothian, Virginia, says: "It's interesting to see these Democrats destroying their careers in the Senate so that they can try and stay to the left of Dr. Dean. First Edwards talks his way into never being electable in North Carolina, and now Graham. Pity, huh?"

Mr. Schwarz, that's a real problem for these Democrats.

BEGALA: Not as big a problem as the problem our president has gotten us into Iraq. The Democrats will get us out.

From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak.

Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

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