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CNN Crossfire
Bush Faces Protests in Britain; Police to Arrest Michael Jackson
Aired November 19, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: In the CROSSFIRE, he's getting the royal treatment at Buckingham Palace.
And getting no respect in the streets of London.
Plus, an arrest warrant for Michael Jackson.
Today on CROSSFIRE.
Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
In London today, President Bush compared himself to magician David Blaine, who was ridiculed and harassed as he was suspended in a box over the Thames for 40 days.
With all due respect, Mr. President, we're not very concerned with your precarious perch, but rather with the danger faced by 130,000 American troops who are stranded in Iraq while you're bedding down at Buckingham Palace.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: And that gets to the larger question of the danger posed by dictators and terrorists -- and the world is full of both -- and the need for a more coherent policy than one espoused by a mob of angry former Stalinists in the streets of London.
We'll debate President Bush and the British, right after the best political briefing in television, our "CROSSFIRE Political Alert."
Well, the Massachusetts Supreme Court this week ruled that the state has no right to prevent gay couples from getting married. While Massachusetts is far more liberal than the rest of the country, there is no question that the decision means gay marriage will soon become a national reality.
In the meantime, a few questions. Why is it that not a single mainstream Democratic presidential candidate favors gay marriage? Instead, all, every one opposes it. The answer, because they're hypocrites.
Here's another question. Now that liberals have officially abandoned the yuck test -- just because you find it icky doesn't mean it should be illegal -- how can they oppose any sort of marriage? In other words, why stop with two men or two women? Why not three men, or six? Or a father and a daughter?
As long as they're consenting adults who love each other, who can call it wrong. The answer? Nobody can call it wrong.
Liberals won't admit that, of course. They'll start screaming about Rick Santorum and ignore the question. But they shouldn't be allowed to ignore the question. It's too important. Answer it.
BEGALA: There's important public policy ramifications. Obviously, incest has public policy, public health ramifications. And plural marriages are very often, almost always, based on some sort of victimization.
CARLSON: That's not necessarily true at all.
BEGALA: Let me ask you the question.
CARLSON: What about three women?
BEGALA: What is the harm done by a gay marriage?
CARLSON: Actually, here's my question.
BEGALA: What's the harm.
CARLSON: I'm not sure what the non-theological argument against gay marriage is. Honestly.
BEGALA: Bigotry. That's what the non-theological argument is.
CARLSON: You know what? You totally dodged the question, as usual.
BEGALA: I answered the question. You dodged it.
Well, right-wing radio blowhard and massive hypocrite Rush Limbaugh has returned to the airwaves after drug rehab. Personally, I hope and pray that he beats his drug addiction. Most of us know someone who's wrestled with addiction and our hearts go out to Rush.
But most of us do not know money launderers. And ABC News is reporting that law enforcement officials in two states claim that Mr. Limbaugh may have broken money-laundering laws in the way that he paid for his drugs.
Now Limbaugh's attorney, the great criminal lawyer, Roy Black, absolutely denies the allegation. ABC reports said in Florida, money laundering is a felony with as much as a 30-year prison term.
Well, let's hope Rush one day is not broadcasting on the Excellence in Incarceration Network.
CARLSON: You know, this is just one of those authoritarian laws passed during the pro-law enforcement Clinton years...
BEGALA: Money laundering? CARLSON: ... that just makes me sick. The idea that if you deposit more than 10 grand in cash, you're required by law to send a notice to the federal government, telling them of that is an outrage. It's not a crime to deposit your own money in a bank. Nobody has accused him of depositing anything but his own money.
BEGALA: The accusation is about withdrawals. You may not like the law.
CARLSON: I hate the law.
BEGALA: I hope Mr. Limbaugh is innocent of a crime. But it is a law.
CARLSON: No. It's totally...
BEGALA: Just like you cannot take prescription drugs when they're not prescribed. That is a law. And conservatives like Rush Limbaugh like to lecture us about the law.
CARLSON: You know what? Paul, you just made the argument that not all laws are right. Laws against gay marriage you said were based on bigotry. Just because it's a law doesn't mean it's right.
BEGALA: You appeal them in the courts. That's what you do. If you think it's bigotry to stop a man from using illegal drugs.
CARLSON: Still, I think it's wrong for the federal government to keep track of how much money you've got in your checking account. None of their business. Period.
BEGALA: So, break the law.
CARLSON: Well, in London today, President Bush thanked the British for standing by the United States and for standing up to terrorists. And yet many on the streets of London wish their government would do neither one.
To debate President Bush's reception abroad, we're joined from New York by Bianca Jagger. Here with us in Washington is "Washington Times" editorial page editor Tony Blankley.
Ms. Jagger, Tony, thank you very much for joining us.
Let me play a piece of videotape of our president speaking very forcefully in London today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We did not charge hundreds of miles into the heart of Iraq and pay a bitter cost of casualties and liberate 25 million people, only to retreat before a band of thugs and assassins.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BEGALA: Tony, those are strong words. Why, when he's saying we're not going to retreat to a bunch of thugs and assassins, is he simultaneously saying, we're going to withdraw a huge amount of our forces just before the election? Is he kind of talking like Dirty Harry and acting like Barney Fife, right?
TONY BLANKLEY, "WASHINGTON TIMES" EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR: Wrong. Actually, he has said and Rumsfeld has said they're going to keep at least 100,000 troops there through all of next year, more if needed.
The 100,000 level is only based on the assumption that violence comes down and less is needed.
I know that some people are arguing that this is a cut-and-run strategy. My judgment is it's wrong; that's not a cut-and-run strategy. The president has been -- and has said again today that it's not. We'll have to wait and see who's right.
But it's been a theme of the anti-war people that this is Vietnam. And they've been playing that theme since the quagmire in Afghanistan. And now the Vietnamization has become the Iraqization and decent interval (ph).
We understand the scenario, and those people who believe that scenario keep repeating it. I think they're wrong.
CARLSON: Bianca Jagger, thanks a lot for joining us.
I want to read you a quote from the mayor of London, Ken Livingstone. Doubtless you know his. He's a leader of the anti-Bush demonstrations in London this week. This is what he said about President Bush. I'm quoting now.
"Bush is the greatest threat to life on this planet that we've most probably ever seen. The policies he is initiating will doom us to extinction." Most threatening. Greatest threat ever. That's going above a lot of people, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Kim Jong-Il. I mean, the list goes on. That's a completely ludicrous, very non-adult thing to say.
How can you take seriously Ken Livingstone or anyone who would follow him after he says something like that?
BIANCA JAGGER, HUMAN RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Well, I think that, one, Mr. Livingstone is trying to say is that President Bush's policies have really endangered our future.
This is a president that has turned his back on all international treaties, who has totally disregarded the U.N. charter. Who has launched a war that was illegal and immoral. And now he cannot justify, because weapons of mass destruction have not been found.
And what is really embarrassing for Prime Minister Blair is that this is really not a very untimely visit of President Bush. Because at a moment when they're trying to find reasons to have gone to war, it becomes more and more evident that, one, there were no weapons of mass destruction, and two, that the policies that they have for Iraq are all failing.
And on one hand they tell us that they're withdrawing, and on the other hand they're telling that they will not give up.
And, therefore, I think that what Ken Livingstone is trying to say is that President Bush is someone that we all are very concerned to have as the president of the United States, the most powerful nation in the world.
BEGALA: Let me pick up on something Bianca just said. She mentioned President Bush talking about weapons of mass destruction in the hands of terrorists. That was his principle justification for the war in Iraq.
Today, again, he came back to beating that drum. Here's the president again talking about Iraq -- or talking about terrorists and weapons of mass destruction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: The greatest threat of our age is nuclear, chemical or biological weapons in the hands of terrorists, and the dictators who aid them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Set aside the halting delivery, more evocative of Forrest Gump than Winston Churchill, and get to the point: it's inarguable true that that's a threat. But doesn't he diminish his credibility, having already misled us about Saddam Hussein, who he said he was about to arm terrorists with chemicals and biological weapons, and that was false then?
Hasn't he destroyed his credibility to lead on one of the most important issues of our time?
BLANKLEY: Well, I think the first point you're wrong on. Winston Churchill, whom I much admire, stammered and stuttered in his time, if you listen to his old speeches. So in that way, it was evocative of Churchill.
BEGALA: I'm calling baloney on that. But...
BLANKLEY: But no. Let me just have a couple of words in. Look, this is an argument that you folks keep making, that he said the weapons were an imminent threat. He never said that was a big point mad. Testimony was given. We have lots of examples of...
(CROSSTALK)
BLANKLEY: ... a great and gathering threat.
BEGALA: He said there was a mushroom cloud.
BLANKLEY: No, he...
BEGALA: The president of the United States said that.
BLANKLEY: Let me just finish.
JAGGER: I'm terribly sorry, but he did say that there were weapons of mass destruction. Not only did he say it, but Prime Minister Blair said that within 45 minutes they could launch a chemical and biological war against Great Britain and the United States.
BLANKLEY: Blair -- Blair -- Blair said 45 minutes. The president of the United States never did. He never said the threat was imminent. His assistant secretary went and testified.
There was a debate about imminence. And what -- some of the reasons the Democrats opposed the president before the war, because he wouldn't say it was imminent. They said there's no imminent threat. He says we agree. And they said we shouldn't go until it's...
JAGGER: Well, I don't...
BLANKLEY: Let me make...
JAGGER: I don't know where you were during all the debates.
BLANKLEY: We have to reestablish what objective facts were six months ago. Every time that we have a discussion with people who are against the war now and against the war then, it's difficult to ever go beyond Point A.
But the fact is that the world remains in danger from rogue dictators who may come into possession of weapons of mass destruction and may pass them to terrorists.
That is the fundamental truth of our time. And we can haggle over words, but the fact -- if we don't deal with that fact, millions of Americans and Europeans are going to be killed. And I don't know why the debate never addresses, how do we deal with that fact.
All the demonstrators don't have a solution. They don't even recognize it as a problem. And you and I could die tomorrow because of that.
CARLSON: Bianca Jagger, you quote Tony Blair a moment ago. I want to quote him again. This is what he said to the House of Commons just recently. I'm quoting now.
"It really is about time we started to realize who our allies are, who our enemies are, stick with the one and fight the other."
It's a pretty simple concept. It's not in evidence in the demonstrations in London, where you see people with pro-Castro signs, for instance. Nobody is denouncing Saddam Hussein. Nobody even cares about Saddam Hussein. In fact, it's in effect a defense of Saddam Hussein.
Why is that? Why are they more upset about the United States than they are about murderous dictators?
JAGGER: Let me address the issue of what's happening today in Great Britain, and in the rest of the world, vis-a-vis, President Bush.
What is unfortunate, and I think that -- I hope that the American public is becoming aware by seeing the hostility that exists among the demonstrators in England -- is that the United States has enjoyed for decades a great sympathy from the people in Great Britain, and in the rest of the world.
And since President Bush has become the president, and has launched his "war against terrorism," quote unquote, has made the United States a country that many people regard with distrust, and that many people have become, since his war against terrorism, anti- American.
And I think it is extremely dangerous, and is very -- is actually regrettable that when you have a great relationship between the United States and Great Britain, and that the British people really felt great empathy for America, all of that has been lost. Not just in the United States, but in many parts of the world.
And I think that that's really important for Americans to understand, the hostility that exists throughout the world in many countries, where I have visited in the last year. Whether we're talking about India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Latin America, in many of those countries.
BEGALA: Ms. Jagger...
JAGGER: I think President Bush has...
BEGALA: We'll have to take a break. I'm sorry.
JAGGER: ... left behind a terrible animosity.
BEGALA: I'm sorry to interrupt you. We'll be back in a minute. I'll let Tony Blankley respond to that when we come back. And when we do, I'm going to ask Mr. Blankley more particularly, why do people rule by an unelected queen have such a problem with our unelected president?
And later, Michael Jackson is in the legal spotlight again, folks. We will talk to a former spiritual adviser to the King of Pop.
And get this, "People" magazine says that one of the hosts of CROSSFIRE is one of the sexiest men alive. Who knew? We'll let you know which one of us it is, later on CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back. Time now for "Rapid Fire," where we move about as fast as President Bush trying to avoid all those protesters in London.
With us, human rights advocate Bianca Jagger. She's in New York. And "Washington Times" editorial page editor Tony Blankley.
BLANKLEY: I'm also a human rights advocate.
BEGALA: Himself a human rights advocate.
CARLSON: Bianca Jagger, you're a big fan of the U.N., so maybe you can tell me why U.N., if it cares so deeply about the people of Iraq, has pretty much pulled out of that country, and isn't hanging tough and helping people get new sewers and water and electricity? Where is the U.N.?
JAGGER: Well, the problem with the U.N. was that if President Bush had put in the hands of the U.N. the care and protection of the people of Iraq and not undermined, as he has done, I think that the U.N. would be there to respond to those questions that you asked me.
But unfortunately, President Bush decided that the U.N. was irrelevant, and undermined the role that the U.N. has played until now, since the Second World War. And this is where he finds now, in a terrible predicament and a quagmire, where he doesn't know whether he should go in or out or what he should do before the next election.
BEGALA: Tony, do Britons hate America or President Bush?
BLANKLEY: Well, they don't hate America or President Bush. Right now he probably has a lower approval than he usually does there.
But I understand, Bush is not a popular man in Britain, and he's not a popular man in Europe. Nonetheless the war...
BEGALA: Not a popular man in our country.
BLANKLEY: Nonetheless, 60 some percent, I believe, consider America to be a country that they are friends with. The war has become, relatively speaking, more popular in Britain in the last month. The polls, as you know, from the "Manchester Guardian" showed it up to a plurality supporting the war.
But I just want to talk briefly about what Ms. Jagger said about, Americans always used to be popular and now we're hated. I would remind her that in the '80s we had, I believe, millions of demonstrators against the United States, when we were trying to place Pershing missiles there.
America has gone up and down in popular esteem in Europe depending on current events. Right now we're down because the war hasn't gone as well in the aftermath as people like, and there's been a lot of propaganda, all sides, going.
My guess is that the mood will come back nicely in the year or two if things are working better.
JAGGER: And you must admit that there's never been hostility like there is today. And you never had demonstrations like you had today against President Bush. BLANKLEY: Look, you have barely 100,000 in the streets tomorrow, so they say. They had a million before the war. And they had millions...
JAGGER: No, no. We didn't have a million. I was there present. I was one of the speakers.
BLANKLEY: The media -- the media claimed.
JAGGER: We had 750,000 after the war began.
CARLSON: I'm afraid, Bianca Jagger, we're going to have to get the park service to adjudicate this debate, as always. But we thank you very much for coming, Bianca Jagger in New York, Tony Blankley, the best dressed man in Washington here at GWU.
Thank you.
Well, Michael Jackson, the plastic surgery icon and long-time Democratic Party fund-raiser, earned a new title today: likely defendant. The so-called King of Pop is the subject of an arrest warrant. We'll talk to a former spiritual adviser of Jackson's just ahead.
Right after the break, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on the Jackson investigation.
And we all know CROSSFIRE hosts are known for their profound sexiness. Now "People" magazine deems it official. We'll reveal "People's" choice later in the show.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER (singing): I'm looking at the man in the mirror. I'm asking him to change his ways. And no message could have been any clearer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: A Jackson spokesman issued a statement, saying in part, quote, "These scurrilous and totally unfounded allegations will be proven false in a courtroom," end quote. Good luck.
Joining us from New York is someone who knows him well. Rabbi Shmuley Boteach once served as Michael Jackson's spiritual adviser.
Welcome, Rabbi.
RABBI SHMULEY BOTEACH, FORMER SPIRITUAL ADVISER TO MICHAEL JACKSON: Hello.
BEGALA: Nice to see you. BEGALA: Numerous people now, including apparently legal authorities in California, accusing Mr. Jackson of child molestation. Do you believe he's innocent, and if so, why?
BOTEACH: Up until 2 p.m. today, I've always believed that Michael was not capable of harming a child, even when I condemned his immoral statement that he invites children that are not his own into his bed. But there's a difference between immoral, unacceptable and criminal and illegal.
And I have to admit that I have a profound sadness in my heart, seeing these charges waged against Michael. And I believe this a tragedy, not just for people who know him, but for all of America.
And not only because we were all once inspired by his music and grew up with him. But because Michael Jackson was the only celebrity that I know of that actually cherished children. Madonna wants our kids to grow up and wear thongs. Hollywood wants...
BEGALA: With respect, he's not accused of cherishing children. So do you believe these charges or not?
BOTEACH: Well, what I'm trying to say is that he once cherished kids, and now people are going to say anyone who does cherish kids, there must be something wrong, that you must be sick and you must be a molester.
A man is proven until proven guilty. Is my faith shattered? To an extent, yes. It's devastating, absolutely.
CARLSON: But Rabbi, wait a second. I don't think anybody who cherishes children will be under the microscope, just those who invite pre-teen children to sleep with them in bed and pay off children who accuse them of molesting them.
You knew that he invited kids into his bed. You knew that he paid off this child who accused him some ten years ago. You didn't think there was anything sexual going on between Michael Jackson and children? You must be the only person in America who didn't think that.
BOTEACH: First of all, why do you say I knew he invited children into his bed? I never knew any such thing. And he told me...
CARLSON: I don't know, it was in every newspaper in America.
BOTEACH: Just a second. And he told me that is not true. And he only admitted that on TV, this past February.
I severed my relationship with Michael two years ago, not because I thought he was a molester, but because I saw him disintegrating before my eyes. And I was trying my best to instill within his daily life the necessary components of a healthy life. And he wasn't listening to me, and he was treating me as an irritant.
And I was not just going to be a sycophant who sucked up to a world-renowned superstar. I was not going to see someone I cared about dissolve before my eyes.
And when he said that in February, the next day I was on TV saying that is despicable, immoral and unacceptable. But I still believed that there may be an innocent component to it, because maybe for him it was like a sleepover.
Now it's different. He's been charged. And I am profoundly saddened, and I'm not going to lie and say that I'm not hurt by the allegations. It's a tragedy.
BEGALA: Rabbi Boteach, I'm sorry, it's going to be the last word in a very truncated discussion, but we appreciate you coming on. Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, a former spiritual adviser to pop star Michael Jackson.
Well, up next, on a lighter note, we will reveal to you which CROSSFIRE host has been chosen by "People" magazine as one of the sexiest men of the year. Apparently, this is an issue for the visually impaired.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back.
Finally today, "People" magazine's new survey of the sexiest men alive hits the newsstands later this week.
Now, we can't disclose to you who is on the cover, but we're happy to note that if you look inside, you'll find that "People" has finally given CROSSFIRE's own James Carville the recognition he so richly deserves, at least in the eyes of his lovely wife Mary.
Sexiest man alive, one of them at least. Fortunately, James posed without the trash can his head, which usually helps the look. It's a great picture, though.
CARLSON: You know what? If there was ever a moment that demanded a recount, it's this. I mean, I actually would like Scalia.
But you know what? The deeper question is, Paul, and I'm sure you agree. I have a mother; I have a wife; I have three daughters. OK? You would think I would know something about women? I know nothing. I know absolutely nothing about women.
If James, whom I love, is considered one of the world's sexiest men, it just shows I'm profoundly ignorant about what women want.
BEGALA: Well, apparently, they want James.
So congratulations, James. Everybody go snap up your...
CARLSON: What does this say about America? I mean...
BEGALA: From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow, Thursday, for yet more CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now. Have a great night.
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Aired November 19, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: In the CROSSFIRE, he's getting the royal treatment at Buckingham Palace.
And getting no respect in the streets of London.
Plus, an arrest warrant for Michael Jackson.
Today on CROSSFIRE.
Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
In London today, President Bush compared himself to magician David Blaine, who was ridiculed and harassed as he was suspended in a box over the Thames for 40 days.
With all due respect, Mr. President, we're not very concerned with your precarious perch, but rather with the danger faced by 130,000 American troops who are stranded in Iraq while you're bedding down at Buckingham Palace.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: And that gets to the larger question of the danger posed by dictators and terrorists -- and the world is full of both -- and the need for a more coherent policy than one espoused by a mob of angry former Stalinists in the streets of London.
We'll debate President Bush and the British, right after the best political briefing in television, our "CROSSFIRE Political Alert."
Well, the Massachusetts Supreme Court this week ruled that the state has no right to prevent gay couples from getting married. While Massachusetts is far more liberal than the rest of the country, there is no question that the decision means gay marriage will soon become a national reality.
In the meantime, a few questions. Why is it that not a single mainstream Democratic presidential candidate favors gay marriage? Instead, all, every one opposes it. The answer, because they're hypocrites.
Here's another question. Now that liberals have officially abandoned the yuck test -- just because you find it icky doesn't mean it should be illegal -- how can they oppose any sort of marriage? In other words, why stop with two men or two women? Why not three men, or six? Or a father and a daughter?
As long as they're consenting adults who love each other, who can call it wrong. The answer? Nobody can call it wrong.
Liberals won't admit that, of course. They'll start screaming about Rick Santorum and ignore the question. But they shouldn't be allowed to ignore the question. It's too important. Answer it.
BEGALA: There's important public policy ramifications. Obviously, incest has public policy, public health ramifications. And plural marriages are very often, almost always, based on some sort of victimization.
CARLSON: That's not necessarily true at all.
BEGALA: Let me ask you the question.
CARLSON: What about three women?
BEGALA: What is the harm done by a gay marriage?
CARLSON: Actually, here's my question.
BEGALA: What's the harm.
CARLSON: I'm not sure what the non-theological argument against gay marriage is. Honestly.
BEGALA: Bigotry. That's what the non-theological argument is.
CARLSON: You know what? You totally dodged the question, as usual.
BEGALA: I answered the question. You dodged it.
Well, right-wing radio blowhard and massive hypocrite Rush Limbaugh has returned to the airwaves after drug rehab. Personally, I hope and pray that he beats his drug addiction. Most of us know someone who's wrestled with addiction and our hearts go out to Rush.
But most of us do not know money launderers. And ABC News is reporting that law enforcement officials in two states claim that Mr. Limbaugh may have broken money-laundering laws in the way that he paid for his drugs.
Now Limbaugh's attorney, the great criminal lawyer, Roy Black, absolutely denies the allegation. ABC reports said in Florida, money laundering is a felony with as much as a 30-year prison term.
Well, let's hope Rush one day is not broadcasting on the Excellence in Incarceration Network.
CARLSON: You know, this is just one of those authoritarian laws passed during the pro-law enforcement Clinton years...
BEGALA: Money laundering? CARLSON: ... that just makes me sick. The idea that if you deposit more than 10 grand in cash, you're required by law to send a notice to the federal government, telling them of that is an outrage. It's not a crime to deposit your own money in a bank. Nobody has accused him of depositing anything but his own money.
BEGALA: The accusation is about withdrawals. You may not like the law.
CARLSON: I hate the law.
BEGALA: I hope Mr. Limbaugh is innocent of a crime. But it is a law.
CARLSON: No. It's totally...
BEGALA: Just like you cannot take prescription drugs when they're not prescribed. That is a law. And conservatives like Rush Limbaugh like to lecture us about the law.
CARLSON: You know what? Paul, you just made the argument that not all laws are right. Laws against gay marriage you said were based on bigotry. Just because it's a law doesn't mean it's right.
BEGALA: You appeal them in the courts. That's what you do. If you think it's bigotry to stop a man from using illegal drugs.
CARLSON: Still, I think it's wrong for the federal government to keep track of how much money you've got in your checking account. None of their business. Period.
BEGALA: So, break the law.
CARLSON: Well, in London today, President Bush thanked the British for standing by the United States and for standing up to terrorists. And yet many on the streets of London wish their government would do neither one.
To debate President Bush's reception abroad, we're joined from New York by Bianca Jagger. Here with us in Washington is "Washington Times" editorial page editor Tony Blankley.
Ms. Jagger, Tony, thank you very much for joining us.
Let me play a piece of videotape of our president speaking very forcefully in London today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We did not charge hundreds of miles into the heart of Iraq and pay a bitter cost of casualties and liberate 25 million people, only to retreat before a band of thugs and assassins.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BEGALA: Tony, those are strong words. Why, when he's saying we're not going to retreat to a bunch of thugs and assassins, is he simultaneously saying, we're going to withdraw a huge amount of our forces just before the election? Is he kind of talking like Dirty Harry and acting like Barney Fife, right?
TONY BLANKLEY, "WASHINGTON TIMES" EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR: Wrong. Actually, he has said and Rumsfeld has said they're going to keep at least 100,000 troops there through all of next year, more if needed.
The 100,000 level is only based on the assumption that violence comes down and less is needed.
I know that some people are arguing that this is a cut-and-run strategy. My judgment is it's wrong; that's not a cut-and-run strategy. The president has been -- and has said again today that it's not. We'll have to wait and see who's right.
But it's been a theme of the anti-war people that this is Vietnam. And they've been playing that theme since the quagmire in Afghanistan. And now the Vietnamization has become the Iraqization and decent interval (ph).
We understand the scenario, and those people who believe that scenario keep repeating it. I think they're wrong.
CARLSON: Bianca Jagger, thanks a lot for joining us.
I want to read you a quote from the mayor of London, Ken Livingstone. Doubtless you know his. He's a leader of the anti-Bush demonstrations in London this week. This is what he said about President Bush. I'm quoting now.
"Bush is the greatest threat to life on this planet that we've most probably ever seen. The policies he is initiating will doom us to extinction." Most threatening. Greatest threat ever. That's going above a lot of people, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Kim Jong-Il. I mean, the list goes on. That's a completely ludicrous, very non-adult thing to say.
How can you take seriously Ken Livingstone or anyone who would follow him after he says something like that?
BIANCA JAGGER, HUMAN RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Well, I think that, one, Mr. Livingstone is trying to say is that President Bush's policies have really endangered our future.
This is a president that has turned his back on all international treaties, who has totally disregarded the U.N. charter. Who has launched a war that was illegal and immoral. And now he cannot justify, because weapons of mass destruction have not been found.
And what is really embarrassing for Prime Minister Blair is that this is really not a very untimely visit of President Bush. Because at a moment when they're trying to find reasons to have gone to war, it becomes more and more evident that, one, there were no weapons of mass destruction, and two, that the policies that they have for Iraq are all failing.
And on one hand they tell us that they're withdrawing, and on the other hand they're telling that they will not give up.
And, therefore, I think that what Ken Livingstone is trying to say is that President Bush is someone that we all are very concerned to have as the president of the United States, the most powerful nation in the world.
BEGALA: Let me pick up on something Bianca just said. She mentioned President Bush talking about weapons of mass destruction in the hands of terrorists. That was his principle justification for the war in Iraq.
Today, again, he came back to beating that drum. Here's the president again talking about Iraq -- or talking about terrorists and weapons of mass destruction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: The greatest threat of our age is nuclear, chemical or biological weapons in the hands of terrorists, and the dictators who aid them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Set aside the halting delivery, more evocative of Forrest Gump than Winston Churchill, and get to the point: it's inarguable true that that's a threat. But doesn't he diminish his credibility, having already misled us about Saddam Hussein, who he said he was about to arm terrorists with chemicals and biological weapons, and that was false then?
Hasn't he destroyed his credibility to lead on one of the most important issues of our time?
BLANKLEY: Well, I think the first point you're wrong on. Winston Churchill, whom I much admire, stammered and stuttered in his time, if you listen to his old speeches. So in that way, it was evocative of Churchill.
BEGALA: I'm calling baloney on that. But...
BLANKLEY: But no. Let me just have a couple of words in. Look, this is an argument that you folks keep making, that he said the weapons were an imminent threat. He never said that was a big point mad. Testimony was given. We have lots of examples of...
(CROSSTALK)
BLANKLEY: ... a great and gathering threat.
BEGALA: He said there was a mushroom cloud.
BLANKLEY: No, he...
BEGALA: The president of the United States said that.
BLANKLEY: Let me just finish.
JAGGER: I'm terribly sorry, but he did say that there were weapons of mass destruction. Not only did he say it, but Prime Minister Blair said that within 45 minutes they could launch a chemical and biological war against Great Britain and the United States.
BLANKLEY: Blair -- Blair -- Blair said 45 minutes. The president of the United States never did. He never said the threat was imminent. His assistant secretary went and testified.
There was a debate about imminence. And what -- some of the reasons the Democrats opposed the president before the war, because he wouldn't say it was imminent. They said there's no imminent threat. He says we agree. And they said we shouldn't go until it's...
JAGGER: Well, I don't...
BLANKLEY: Let me make...
JAGGER: I don't know where you were during all the debates.
BLANKLEY: We have to reestablish what objective facts were six months ago. Every time that we have a discussion with people who are against the war now and against the war then, it's difficult to ever go beyond Point A.
But the fact is that the world remains in danger from rogue dictators who may come into possession of weapons of mass destruction and may pass them to terrorists.
That is the fundamental truth of our time. And we can haggle over words, but the fact -- if we don't deal with that fact, millions of Americans and Europeans are going to be killed. And I don't know why the debate never addresses, how do we deal with that fact.
All the demonstrators don't have a solution. They don't even recognize it as a problem. And you and I could die tomorrow because of that.
CARLSON: Bianca Jagger, you quote Tony Blair a moment ago. I want to quote him again. This is what he said to the House of Commons just recently. I'm quoting now.
"It really is about time we started to realize who our allies are, who our enemies are, stick with the one and fight the other."
It's a pretty simple concept. It's not in evidence in the demonstrations in London, where you see people with pro-Castro signs, for instance. Nobody is denouncing Saddam Hussein. Nobody even cares about Saddam Hussein. In fact, it's in effect a defense of Saddam Hussein.
Why is that? Why are they more upset about the United States than they are about murderous dictators?
JAGGER: Let me address the issue of what's happening today in Great Britain, and in the rest of the world, vis-a-vis, President Bush.
What is unfortunate, and I think that -- I hope that the American public is becoming aware by seeing the hostility that exists among the demonstrators in England -- is that the United States has enjoyed for decades a great sympathy from the people in Great Britain, and in the rest of the world.
And since President Bush has become the president, and has launched his "war against terrorism," quote unquote, has made the United States a country that many people regard with distrust, and that many people have become, since his war against terrorism, anti- American.
And I think it is extremely dangerous, and is very -- is actually regrettable that when you have a great relationship between the United States and Great Britain, and that the British people really felt great empathy for America, all of that has been lost. Not just in the United States, but in many parts of the world.
And I think that that's really important for Americans to understand, the hostility that exists throughout the world in many countries, where I have visited in the last year. Whether we're talking about India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Latin America, in many of those countries.
BEGALA: Ms. Jagger...
JAGGER: I think President Bush has...
BEGALA: We'll have to take a break. I'm sorry.
JAGGER: ... left behind a terrible animosity.
BEGALA: I'm sorry to interrupt you. We'll be back in a minute. I'll let Tony Blankley respond to that when we come back. And when we do, I'm going to ask Mr. Blankley more particularly, why do people rule by an unelected queen have such a problem with our unelected president?
And later, Michael Jackson is in the legal spotlight again, folks. We will talk to a former spiritual adviser to the King of Pop.
And get this, "People" magazine says that one of the hosts of CROSSFIRE is one of the sexiest men alive. Who knew? We'll let you know which one of us it is, later on CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back. Time now for "Rapid Fire," where we move about as fast as President Bush trying to avoid all those protesters in London.
With us, human rights advocate Bianca Jagger. She's in New York. And "Washington Times" editorial page editor Tony Blankley.
BLANKLEY: I'm also a human rights advocate.
BEGALA: Himself a human rights advocate.
CARLSON: Bianca Jagger, you're a big fan of the U.N., so maybe you can tell me why U.N., if it cares so deeply about the people of Iraq, has pretty much pulled out of that country, and isn't hanging tough and helping people get new sewers and water and electricity? Where is the U.N.?
JAGGER: Well, the problem with the U.N. was that if President Bush had put in the hands of the U.N. the care and protection of the people of Iraq and not undermined, as he has done, I think that the U.N. would be there to respond to those questions that you asked me.
But unfortunately, President Bush decided that the U.N. was irrelevant, and undermined the role that the U.N. has played until now, since the Second World War. And this is where he finds now, in a terrible predicament and a quagmire, where he doesn't know whether he should go in or out or what he should do before the next election.
BEGALA: Tony, do Britons hate America or President Bush?
BLANKLEY: Well, they don't hate America or President Bush. Right now he probably has a lower approval than he usually does there.
But I understand, Bush is not a popular man in Britain, and he's not a popular man in Europe. Nonetheless the war...
BEGALA: Not a popular man in our country.
BLANKLEY: Nonetheless, 60 some percent, I believe, consider America to be a country that they are friends with. The war has become, relatively speaking, more popular in Britain in the last month. The polls, as you know, from the "Manchester Guardian" showed it up to a plurality supporting the war.
But I just want to talk briefly about what Ms. Jagger said about, Americans always used to be popular and now we're hated. I would remind her that in the '80s we had, I believe, millions of demonstrators against the United States, when we were trying to place Pershing missiles there.
America has gone up and down in popular esteem in Europe depending on current events. Right now we're down because the war hasn't gone as well in the aftermath as people like, and there's been a lot of propaganda, all sides, going.
My guess is that the mood will come back nicely in the year or two if things are working better.
JAGGER: And you must admit that there's never been hostility like there is today. And you never had demonstrations like you had today against President Bush. BLANKLEY: Look, you have barely 100,000 in the streets tomorrow, so they say. They had a million before the war. And they had millions...
JAGGER: No, no. We didn't have a million. I was there present. I was one of the speakers.
BLANKLEY: The media -- the media claimed.
JAGGER: We had 750,000 after the war began.
CARLSON: I'm afraid, Bianca Jagger, we're going to have to get the park service to adjudicate this debate, as always. But we thank you very much for coming, Bianca Jagger in New York, Tony Blankley, the best dressed man in Washington here at GWU.
Thank you.
Well, Michael Jackson, the plastic surgery icon and long-time Democratic Party fund-raiser, earned a new title today: likely defendant. The so-called King of Pop is the subject of an arrest warrant. We'll talk to a former spiritual adviser of Jackson's just ahead.
Right after the break, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on the Jackson investigation.
And we all know CROSSFIRE hosts are known for their profound sexiness. Now "People" magazine deems it official. We'll reveal "People's" choice later in the show.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER (singing): I'm looking at the man in the mirror. I'm asking him to change his ways. And no message could have been any clearer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: A Jackson spokesman issued a statement, saying in part, quote, "These scurrilous and totally unfounded allegations will be proven false in a courtroom," end quote. Good luck.
Joining us from New York is someone who knows him well. Rabbi Shmuley Boteach once served as Michael Jackson's spiritual adviser.
Welcome, Rabbi.
RABBI SHMULEY BOTEACH, FORMER SPIRITUAL ADVISER TO MICHAEL JACKSON: Hello.
BEGALA: Nice to see you. BEGALA: Numerous people now, including apparently legal authorities in California, accusing Mr. Jackson of child molestation. Do you believe he's innocent, and if so, why?
BOTEACH: Up until 2 p.m. today, I've always believed that Michael was not capable of harming a child, even when I condemned his immoral statement that he invites children that are not his own into his bed. But there's a difference between immoral, unacceptable and criminal and illegal.
And I have to admit that I have a profound sadness in my heart, seeing these charges waged against Michael. And I believe this a tragedy, not just for people who know him, but for all of America.
And not only because we were all once inspired by his music and grew up with him. But because Michael Jackson was the only celebrity that I know of that actually cherished children. Madonna wants our kids to grow up and wear thongs. Hollywood wants...
BEGALA: With respect, he's not accused of cherishing children. So do you believe these charges or not?
BOTEACH: Well, what I'm trying to say is that he once cherished kids, and now people are going to say anyone who does cherish kids, there must be something wrong, that you must be sick and you must be a molester.
A man is proven until proven guilty. Is my faith shattered? To an extent, yes. It's devastating, absolutely.
CARLSON: But Rabbi, wait a second. I don't think anybody who cherishes children will be under the microscope, just those who invite pre-teen children to sleep with them in bed and pay off children who accuse them of molesting them.
You knew that he invited kids into his bed. You knew that he paid off this child who accused him some ten years ago. You didn't think there was anything sexual going on between Michael Jackson and children? You must be the only person in America who didn't think that.
BOTEACH: First of all, why do you say I knew he invited children into his bed? I never knew any such thing. And he told me...
CARLSON: I don't know, it was in every newspaper in America.
BOTEACH: Just a second. And he told me that is not true. And he only admitted that on TV, this past February.
I severed my relationship with Michael two years ago, not because I thought he was a molester, but because I saw him disintegrating before my eyes. And I was trying my best to instill within his daily life the necessary components of a healthy life. And he wasn't listening to me, and he was treating me as an irritant.
And I was not just going to be a sycophant who sucked up to a world-renowned superstar. I was not going to see someone I cared about dissolve before my eyes.
And when he said that in February, the next day I was on TV saying that is despicable, immoral and unacceptable. But I still believed that there may be an innocent component to it, because maybe for him it was like a sleepover.
Now it's different. He's been charged. And I am profoundly saddened, and I'm not going to lie and say that I'm not hurt by the allegations. It's a tragedy.
BEGALA: Rabbi Boteach, I'm sorry, it's going to be the last word in a very truncated discussion, but we appreciate you coming on. Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, a former spiritual adviser to pop star Michael Jackson.
Well, up next, on a lighter note, we will reveal to you which CROSSFIRE host has been chosen by "People" magazine as one of the sexiest men of the year. Apparently, this is an issue for the visually impaired.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back.
Finally today, "People" magazine's new survey of the sexiest men alive hits the newsstands later this week.
Now, we can't disclose to you who is on the cover, but we're happy to note that if you look inside, you'll find that "People" has finally given CROSSFIRE's own James Carville the recognition he so richly deserves, at least in the eyes of his lovely wife Mary.
Sexiest man alive, one of them at least. Fortunately, James posed without the trash can his head, which usually helps the look. It's a great picture, though.
CARLSON: You know what? If there was ever a moment that demanded a recount, it's this. I mean, I actually would like Scalia.
But you know what? The deeper question is, Paul, and I'm sure you agree. I have a mother; I have a wife; I have three daughters. OK? You would think I would know something about women? I know nothing. I know absolutely nothing about women.
If James, whom I love, is considered one of the world's sexiest men, it just shows I'm profoundly ignorant about what women want.
BEGALA: Well, apparently, they want James.
So congratulations, James. Everybody go snap up your...
CARLSON: What does this say about America? I mean...
BEGALA: From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow, Thursday, for yet more CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now. Have a great night.
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