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CNN Crossfire
Low-Carb Thanksgiving?
Aired November 26, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: What are you having for Thanksgiving? How are you going to take it all off?
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Tofu Turkey.
ANNOUNCER: Or is low carb the way to go this Thanksgiving? Food for thought and thoughts about food.
Plus, Michael Jackson's latest video -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to the Thanksgiving eve edition of CROSSFIRE, where, with the exception of orthodox vegan Dennis Kucinich, Democrats and Republicans can agree on something. We're all going to stuff ourselves sick tomorrow.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: The question is, what should we be stuffing ourselves with? We'll debate high carbs, low fat and tofu turkey, whatever that is.
But, first, our 100 percent certified lean political briefing, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
In his campaign for governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger wasn't very specific about what spending he would cut to balance California's budget. But now aides have released a preliminary list. And it's a wonderful example of the hypocrisy of the so-called compassionate conservatism. Republicans want to eliminate certain therapies for the mentally retarded, program -- and programs that provide life- sustaining medicine for people with AIDS, and even cut the state's prison system. And that's just a start.
Governor Schwarzenegger also wants to repeal the constitutional mandate that requires half of all California's new revenues go to education. Educators, of course, say that would decimate that state's public schools.
Hammering the retarded, the dying and the poor, while promoting ignorance? Welcome to the Republican dream state.
CARLSON: Oh, I'm not...
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I'm not much of a Schwarzenegger man. I will say, though, that the lesson of the Soviet Union, if there is one, is that government can't do everything. It can do some things -- not that way. You have to choose. I'm not convinced an amendment saying half of all revenues ought to go to education is a good idea. More money does not necessarily mean better education.
BEGALA: No, but they're cutting -- they're taking away AIDS medicine from people who need it. They're taking away treatment from people who are retarded, all so they don't have to pay a little bit of taxes.
CARLSON: Actually, actually...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Is money that important to Republicans that they're going to take away drugs from people who are dying of AIDS?
CARLSON: That's so stupid.
BEGALA: God almighty!
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: That I'm not even going to respond to it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's such a series of dumb slogans. I mean, truly...
BEGALA: That's real.
CARLSON: You have to make choices about where to spend your money.
BEGALA: Right. So, sorry, retarded children and people with AIDS.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Oh, come on.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Well, Joe Lieberman's presidential campaign is in deep trouble, of course. How deep? Well, deep enough that the Connecticut senator has taken to comparing himself to John McCain. Here's an actual clip from Lieberman's latest ad, which is airing in New Hampshire.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, LIEBERMAN CAMPAIGN AD)
NARRATOR: Something's happening.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An ethical leader.
NARRATOR: McCain supporters are backing Joe Lieberman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're both straight talkers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Both John McCain and Joe Lieberman vote their own conscience.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They both get past party ideology and focus on the key issues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: OK. Let's think this through. McCain is a pro-life, pro-gun, Sun Belt Republican. Lieberman is a run-of-the-mill Northeastern Democrat. McCain is, by temperament, a radical. Joe Lieberman embodies conventional wisdom, Beltway conventional wisdom. McCain spent 5 1/2 years in a North Vietnamese prison camp. Lieberman went to law school.
They're like soul brothers. Actually, Joe Lieberman and John McCain do have at least one thing in common. Neither one will ever be president of the United States.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Look, I'm not taking sides, but I think it's a good ad. I think Lieberman's is trying to tap into something. He's trying to be a little more independent than the rest of his party, as McCain was.
And I bet you this. If John McCain had the only vote for the presidency, it was between Lieberman and Bush, Joe Lieberman would be moving into that White House.
CARLSON: I don't think so.
BEGALA: Because I don't think John McCain would ever vote for George W. Bush in a secret ballot.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I don't agree with that at all.
I do think, though, that the idea isn't bad, that you want to go after the McCain independents in New Hampshire.
(BELL RINGING) CARLSON: But this ad is just so obvious and dumb. "I'm a McCain independent." People are going to ignore it.
BEGALA: I like it.
Well, one of John McCain's Republican colleagues in the Senate, Republican Orrin Hatch of Utah, is the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. As such, he's placed a Republican staffer on that committee on leave, pending an investigation into whether that staffer broke into Democratic computers and leaked a confidential Democratic memo.
"I am mortified," Hatch said, "that this improper, unethical and simply unacceptable breach of confidential files may have occurred on my watch" -- unquote. Now, while Senator Hatch takes responsibility for the alleged misconduct of his aides, President Bush has refused to take any responsibility for the potentially criminal leaking of the name of a covert CIA operative allegedly done for political reasons.
Now, Mr. Bush may have defeated Senator Hatch in the race for the presidency in the Republican primaries, but he can't hold a candle to him when it comes to class, integrity and real leadership.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Good for Orrin Hatch.
CARLSON: That's just...
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: You know what? That's's just demagoguery. The real difference is that Orrin Hatch believes he knows who leaked it. George W. Bush and the White House have no idea, despite an FBI investigation ongoing. Bush has said, if we find this guy, he's in deep trouble. And he ought to be. And I think he ought to be.
BEGALA: Bush has said they'll catch the guy, therefore giving a signal. He put John Ashcroft in charge of it, who's not doing a lick of work on it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Are you alleging that the FBI is corrupt because John Ashcroft
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm alleging that John Ashcroft cannot be trusted to investigate George W. Bush.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: John Ashcroft is not... BEGALA: And I'm alleging that George W. Bush should have hauled those guys into his office on the first day and said...
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: ... which one of you did it, and fired them all if
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: It's pretty heavy rhetoric to accuse the Department of Justice of being corrupt, as you just have. I think you should rethink that. I really do.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: I will speak for myself, until Mr. Ashcroft wants to come investigate me, Tucker Carlson.
CARLSON: Gosh.
Well, if you're not an obscenely rich trial lawyer, chances are you probably have not given a dime to the John-Edwards-for-president campaign and you probably don't plan to. Well, Senator Edwards would like to change that, of course, which is why he's begun offering a copy of his autobiography to anyone who gives him $35 or more. The plan will help fund his doomed bid for the White House and move a few copies of his book, which is entitled "Four Trials" -- two birds, one stone.
The Edwards campaign also hopes the book will explain why a former trial lawyer who, until just a very few years ago, was trying Jacuzzi cases, ought to be the president of the United States. As his spokeswoman admitted to "The New York Times" this morning -- quote -- "People don't necessarily understand how his career translates to the presidency."
That's for certain, not that Edwards necessarily had much to do with his own book. According to his campaign, of the $150,000 Edwards received from Simon & Schuster, his publisher, $135,000 of that went to researchers and ghost writers.
BEGALA: Now...
CARLSON: The guy doesn't even pretend to write his own book.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: It's embarrassing.
BEGALA: Jacuzzi cases you say? That case a little girl who...
CARLSON: There were a couple cases.
BEGALA: Excuse me. Let me -- let me finish. This is important. A little girl had her intestines sucked out by a pool that the manufacturer could have prevented with a $1 part. John Edwards stood up to a big corporation. Republicans support the big corporations.
CARLSON: Stood up. Paul, Paul...
BEGALA: Edwards supported that family whose little girl was devastated by that product.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: God bless John Edwards, God bless trial lawyers for standing up to corporate America.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Do you really think you're convincing anybody when you say, Republicans are for the company that kills the little girls? That's...
BEGALA: Of course they are.
CARLSON: That's not an argument. That's a bumper sticker.
BEGALA: Of course they are.
CARLSON: And you don't convince anybody.
BEGALA: Tucker, they're trying to take away all of our rights to stand up to any kind of corporate power. That's what Republicans are all about, sucking up to corporate power.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: That's so overstated, it's insane. Nobody believes a word you say.
BEGALA: Well, are you getting ready to pig out for Thanksgiving? If you are, maybe you should be thinking about what you eat. The diet dilemma: Do we really need to turn Thanksgiving into a low-carb holiday?
And then later, you're not going to believe who's endorsing Dennis Kucinich for the presidency.
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to the live Washington audience, call 202-994-8CNN or e-mail us at CNN@gwu.edu. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Well, by now, most of you probably have your Thanksgiving menus planned. And they probably don't include tofurkey, whatever that is. But since two-thirds of Americans qualify as being overweight -- that is, fat -- it's worth consulting a couple of doctors to see what we should be considering eating for the other 364 days of the year.
In the CROSSFIRE from San Francisco is Dr. Dean Ornish. He's the founder and director of the Preventive Medicine Research Institute and author, among many other books, "Eat More, Weigh Less." And in Philadelphia is Dr. Stuart Trager. He is the chairman of the Atkins Physicians Council, as in the Atkins diet.
Welcome.
BEGALA: Gentlemen, good to see you both again.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Thank you for joining us.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Stuart Trager, a group of physicians calling themselves Physicians For Responsible Medicine called a press conference to talk about the dangers and, in fact, even in some cases fatalities, from the Atkins diet.
Now, here's a spokesman for that group. I want you to listen to what he has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. NEAL BARNARD, PHYSICIANS COMMITTEE FOR RESPONSIBLE MEDICINE: If we look at the nutrient profile, it's exactly the kind of profile you would expect to cause heart disease, to cause kidney disease. There's very little fiber in the Atkins diet. There's an astronomical amount of saturated fat and cholesterol. The protein content is far too high. That taxes the kidneys. It contributes to osteoporosis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Stuart Trager, how do you respond to that?
DR. STUART TRAGER, CHAIRMAN, ATKINS PHYSICIANS COUNCIL: Sure.
Right now, we live in a country where 300,000 people are fighting an epidemic of obesity and not succeeding; 300,000 people are dying each year because of this obesity epidemic. We need to provide people with solutions that work. Neil Barnard is not a concerned physician. Neil Barnard is a vegan animal rights activist who is trying to use science to present his own point of view on how he thinks people should eat, to promote vegetarianism and his vegan agenda.
Science demands that people use the accurate, correct collection of data and present it in a way, in peer-review journals, that stands up and prevents bias like that we're seeing here. What he's talking about really doesn't apply. He's selling half-truths and trying to manipulate a situation to promote an agenda that, quite frankly, doesn't work for the American public.
We see people right now who have tried to fight their weight and manage their weight by reducing calories and by limiting their fat intake, and it's not working.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm sorry. Sorry to jump in, Doctor. I just wanted to get Mr. Ornish, Dr. Ornish's, reaction to that.
If it is true, as "The New York Times" says, 65 percent of Americans are fat, then obesity itself is a real health problem. And we know the Atkins diet works.
DR. DEAN ORNISH, DIRECTOR, PREVENTIVE MEDICINE RESEARCH INSTITUTE: Well, you're right.
CARLSON: It works because people say it works and it works because studies show it works. So why not recommend the Atkins diet?
ORNISH: Well, the Atkins diet is a way to lose weight. And I think one thing that we all agree on is that there really is an epidemic of obesity in this country.
But the goal for me is not just to lose weight. You want to lose weight with amphetamines or fen-phen. The goal is to lose weight in a way that's healthy. And what -- and I agree with Dr. Trager that science can help sort out what is true from what isn't, which is why I have spent the last 26 years of my life doing science published in the leading peer-review journals.
And what did we find? We found that the average person lost 25 pounds and kept half that weight off five years later. There is no long-term data on the Atkins diet. We found they lowered their LDL, or their bad cholesterol, by 40 percent. And we actually found that they were able to reverse heart disease in every way we can measure. The more they followed it, the longer they did it, the more reversal they showed.
And there have never been any studies looking at the effects of an Atkins diet on blood flow to your heart, except for one, which found that it actually got worse. Now, there's no mystery in how you lose weight. You burn more calories by exercise or you eat fewer calories. One thing that Dr. Trager and I, and Dr. Atkins, who I debated a number of times before he died, including here on CROSSFIRE, what we all agree on is that Americans eat way too many what are called simple carbs or refined carbohydrates.
And these are things like sugar, white flower, white rice. And you get a double whammy when you eat all these carbs. You get all these calories that don't fill you up, because you've removed all the fiber. And they get absorbed quickly, so they make your blood sugar zoom up. Your pancreas makes insulin. And the insulin not only lowers your blood sugar, but it causes you to convert those calories into fat. So we both agree on that.
Where we differ is where you go from there. And you don't go from simple carbs to pork rinds and bacon and sausage and butter and Brie. Those are not health foods, even though I would like to be able to tell you they are. You go from simple carbs to what are called whole foods, fruits, vegetables, whole grains, whole wheat flower, brown rice, soy products. Beans and fish and things like this are rich in fiber. The fiber fills you up before you get too many calories.
And it slows the absorption of the food, so you don't get that rapid rise in blood sugar.
(CROSSTALK)
ORNISH: Let me just make one last point and then I'll be quiet. The other reason people get too many calories is, they eat too much fat. And fat has nine calories per gram. And protein and carbs have only four. So when you eat less fat, you get fewer calories without having to eat less food.
So an optimal diet is low in simple carbs, low in fat, high in complex carbs, and high in the fruits and vegetables and grains and beans, that are low in the substances that cause you to get sick and high in at least 1,000 others that are protective.
BEGALA: Stuart Trager, it sounds like common sense. And I have to say, your diet sounds rather counterintuitive. Tell me -- try to persuade me why a big old slab of bacon and a cheeseburger are actually better for me than the whole foods that Dr. Ornish was talking about.
TRAGER: Sure.
The biggest problem is that people have been unable to follow the diet that Dr. Ornish is talking about. And, in fact, they don't need to. What we're finding in good research from prestigious universities, be it Duke, Tufts, Harvard, the University of Pennsylvania, studies that are funded by independent sources like the National Institute of Health or the American Heart Association, that following a diet that reduces carbohydrates in fact not only helps people lose weight, but improves their cardiac risk factors.
What Dr. Ornish doesn't tell you, just another one of the half- truths, is that, when people go on a very low-fat diet, like he recommends and like Dr. Barnard recommends, triglycerides, an independent risk factor for heart disease, go up, and HDL, the good cholesterol, goes down.
(CROSSTALK)
I would expect more from Dr. Ornish than to tell the half-truths.
ORNISH: Stuart, give me a break.
TRAGER: No, listen. (CROSSTALK)
TRAGER: Look, we can tell half-truths about the Fleming (ph) study all you would like.
(CROSSTALK)
ORNISH: Let me tell you about the half-truths.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
TRAGER: When we talk about a high-fat diet, not the Atkins diet, we're telling half-truths. And we need to see more. We need to expect more from each other, Dean, than to tell half-truths and to mislead people.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Excuse me, Doctor.
Dr. Ornish, we're almost out of time. I just want to ask you a quick question, though.
ORNISH: Sure.
CARLSON: You seem to advocate a pretty radical vegetarian diet. And that -- not only does meat make...
ORNISH: No. No.
CARLSON: Oh, you don't advocate a vegetarian diet?
ORNISH: For reversing heart disease, that's what it takes.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Wait. But hold it. My question is, aren't people designed to eat meat?
ORNISH: Wait a minute.
TRAGER: People do eat meat. And they want to eat meat.
(CROSSTALK)
ORNISH: Stuart, let me finish here.
We have proven that heart disease is reversible using the state- of-the-art measures, published in "JAMA," "Circulation," "Lancet," "New England Journal." No one has ever done a study of Atkins showing that it can reverse heart disease. So keep me a break when we're talking about half-truths.
TRAGER: And we're not claiming to reduce heart disease, Dean. ORNISH: When you're talking about cardiac risk...
TRAGER: We're claiming to be able to allow people to lose weight and lower their established risk factors.
(CROSSTALK)
TRAGER: Since this has been shown in real, credible studies, Dean, we need to admit it.
(CROSSTALK)
ORNISH: We have done real, credible studies. And we have published them. And we've found
(CROSSTALK)
TRAGER: And you know what? And it may be that there's no one right way to eat for everyone.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm sorry to have to cut it off.
Stuart Trager, Dr. Dean Ornish out in San Francisco, thank you very much. We're going to have to go to a break and probably sell a bunch of junk food to our audience via commercials.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: But thank you very much, both, gentlemen, for your advice on the diets.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Thanks, guys.
Well, who shot Michael Jackson's new video? That's just one question the FBI and more than a few attorneys want to find an answer to. We'll look at the legal ramifications in the latest twist in the Michael Jackson case just ahead.
And right after the break, Martin Savidge has the latest on the obstacles you just might face trying to get home for the holidays.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
BEGALA: Well, the FBI is checking to see if any federal laws were broken when Michael Jackson and his attorney, Mark Geragos, were secretly videotaped aboard a private jet last week. Tapes were made as Jackson was flying to Santa Barbara to turn himself in on child molestation charges, charges Mr. Jackson vehemently denies. For more on this surprising development in the case, we're joined from Miami by attorney Kendall Coffey.
Kendall, good to see you, sir.
(APPLAUSE)
KENDALL COFFEY, ATTORNEY: Hey, good afternoon.
CARLSON: Kendall, thanks for joining us.
Just a week ago, this case, just from an outsider's perspective, looked like a slam dunk. Michael Jackson molests child, doesn't sound hard to prove. And, in the space of that week, Mark Geragos has planted all these seeds of doubt, that the family is a bunch of money- grubbers, etcetera. Is it possible that Michael Jackson could be charged and then acquitted, do you think?
COFFEY: Well, certainly there's not a slam-dunk from a prosecution standpoint. The leak factories and the rumor mill are in full blast right now.
And, meanwhile, we saw how they took, in effect, advantage of this apparently inexcusable silent video surveillance, turned it into a press conference, turned it into a court order freezing the stuff, proclaiming that Michael Jackson is a victim, not only of this illicit surveillance, but also scurrilous allegations and, by the way, a victim of an accusation from an alleged child victim that's nothing short of a scam.
BEGALA: Well, Kendall, as a former prosecutor, is it a federal crime to surreptitiously videotape Michael Jackson under these situations, or is it the stuff of lawsuits? Just a tort or is it just a nuisance that he ought to just get over?
COFFEY: Well, it's clearly a good lawsuit. If there is an audio component to the video surveillance, then it could well be a federal crime.
But most court decisions say that, if it's purely a silent video, that's not a federal crime. They're also looking at California crimes as possibilities as well.
CARLSON: Jeff Toobin made the point on "PAULA ZAHN" last night that Geragos surrendered Jackson to the authorities before charges were formally filed against him. Do you think this was a blunder?
COFFEY: No.
No, he did exactly the right thing, because, if you say you are innocent, then you, of course, want to go forward to the authorities. You're not going to hide. You're not going to run. You're going to be right there and go through the process.
BEGALA: Well, Kendall, in an earlier interview today with CNN's Art Harris, the Santa Barbara district attorney, Tom Sneddon, apologized for a joke he told at a press conference about Michael Jackson's music, not about the alleged victim, not about the crime.
I have to say, you were a federal prosecutor in Miami. You had to deal with tough, tough criminals. Is this guy tough enough, if he's already whining and apologizing for just telling a joke? Is Tom Sneddon tough enough to
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... Michael Jackson?
COFFEY: Well, I also remember the press conferences were very serious matters. And, frankly, I was a little surprised by some of the joviality.
I think it's a good idea that he apologized, or else he's at some risk of becoming an issue here. They have talked about, 10 years ago, he was sort of the relentless guy trying to make a case. He couldn't. Michael Jackson did a song about him in his 1995 album. So I think it was appropriate for him to apologize, try to take himself out as an issue in this case.
BEGALA: Jackson's got a new Web site, Kendall, in which he calls all of this -- quote -- "a big lie." Is that setting up to call this child, this alleged victim, a big liar? Are they going to attack the kid?
COFFEY: Well, isn't that the message, if you're calling this a big lie? I guess he got the idea from Martha Stewart. I think she was the first one to go with a Web site.
But their strategy, ultimately, is going to be that the child is a victim, not of Michael Jackson, but of adult manipulators who are trying to turn this case, exploit this child into a big settlement, big dollars that the adults can at some point reap for their own benefit. Remember, they may not have brought a civil suit now. But if there is a successful criminal prosecution, a subsequent civil lawsuit following on the coattails of that prosecution could be big enough to get the bringers of that lawsuit most of Neverland.
CARLSON: OK, most of Neverland.
OK, Kendall Coffey in Miami, thanks very much for joining us and explaining the unfolding Michael Jackson case. We'll talk to you again.
BEGALA: Thanks.
COFFEY: Thanks for inviting me.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: New evidence that Dennis Kucinich is running a different kind of campaign, as if we needed more. We'll check out a one-of-a-kind endorsement right after this.
We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Well, finally, Grandfather Twilight has broken his silence. He's endorsing Dennis Kucinich. The campaign Web site quotes the children's book character as saying, no doubt in a wise, gentle voice, "Whenever I hear Dennis speak, I feel the spark of hope again. He spreads the light in people."
There's also a touching endorsement signed in paw prints by the creatures of the forest, none of whom are registered voters.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: It says -- quote -- "We see Dennis Kucinich as uniquely qualified to stand for us and Mother Earth, as well as all of human kind."
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Well, Dennis Kucinich has locked up the pothead vote. There's no doubt about that.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, I'm waiting for President Bush, then, to be endorsed by Smoggy the polluter. That's kind of his thing, Oily the driller, the creatures who destroy the forest.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Dennis Kucinich
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Oily the driller, all the rich and scary characters from Busytown, Huckle Cat and Lowly Worm.
BEGALA: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You know what? I'm all for...
BEGALA: Chokey the arsenic poisoner in the water.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: We'll try to think of some more.
From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
We will back on tomorrow, Thanksgiving. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
See you then.
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Aired November 26, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: What are you having for Thanksgiving? How are you going to take it all off?
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Tofu Turkey.
ANNOUNCER: Or is low carb the way to go this Thanksgiving? Food for thought and thoughts about food.
Plus, Michael Jackson's latest video -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to the Thanksgiving eve edition of CROSSFIRE, where, with the exception of orthodox vegan Dennis Kucinich, Democrats and Republicans can agree on something. We're all going to stuff ourselves sick tomorrow.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: The question is, what should we be stuffing ourselves with? We'll debate high carbs, low fat and tofu turkey, whatever that is.
But, first, our 100 percent certified lean political briefing, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
In his campaign for governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger wasn't very specific about what spending he would cut to balance California's budget. But now aides have released a preliminary list. And it's a wonderful example of the hypocrisy of the so-called compassionate conservatism. Republicans want to eliminate certain therapies for the mentally retarded, program -- and programs that provide life- sustaining medicine for people with AIDS, and even cut the state's prison system. And that's just a start.
Governor Schwarzenegger also wants to repeal the constitutional mandate that requires half of all California's new revenues go to education. Educators, of course, say that would decimate that state's public schools.
Hammering the retarded, the dying and the poor, while promoting ignorance? Welcome to the Republican dream state.
CARLSON: Oh, I'm not...
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I'm not much of a Schwarzenegger man. I will say, though, that the lesson of the Soviet Union, if there is one, is that government can't do everything. It can do some things -- not that way. You have to choose. I'm not convinced an amendment saying half of all revenues ought to go to education is a good idea. More money does not necessarily mean better education.
BEGALA: No, but they're cutting -- they're taking away AIDS medicine from people who need it. They're taking away treatment from people who are retarded, all so they don't have to pay a little bit of taxes.
CARLSON: Actually, actually...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Is money that important to Republicans that they're going to take away drugs from people who are dying of AIDS?
CARLSON: That's so stupid.
BEGALA: God almighty!
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: That I'm not even going to respond to it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's such a series of dumb slogans. I mean, truly...
BEGALA: That's real.
CARLSON: You have to make choices about where to spend your money.
BEGALA: Right. So, sorry, retarded children and people with AIDS.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Oh, come on.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Well, Joe Lieberman's presidential campaign is in deep trouble, of course. How deep? Well, deep enough that the Connecticut senator has taken to comparing himself to John McCain. Here's an actual clip from Lieberman's latest ad, which is airing in New Hampshire.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, LIEBERMAN CAMPAIGN AD)
NARRATOR: Something's happening.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An ethical leader.
NARRATOR: McCain supporters are backing Joe Lieberman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're both straight talkers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Both John McCain and Joe Lieberman vote their own conscience.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They both get past party ideology and focus on the key issues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: OK. Let's think this through. McCain is a pro-life, pro-gun, Sun Belt Republican. Lieberman is a run-of-the-mill Northeastern Democrat. McCain is, by temperament, a radical. Joe Lieberman embodies conventional wisdom, Beltway conventional wisdom. McCain spent 5 1/2 years in a North Vietnamese prison camp. Lieberman went to law school.
They're like soul brothers. Actually, Joe Lieberman and John McCain do have at least one thing in common. Neither one will ever be president of the United States.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Look, I'm not taking sides, but I think it's a good ad. I think Lieberman's is trying to tap into something. He's trying to be a little more independent than the rest of his party, as McCain was.
And I bet you this. If John McCain had the only vote for the presidency, it was between Lieberman and Bush, Joe Lieberman would be moving into that White House.
CARLSON: I don't think so.
BEGALA: Because I don't think John McCain would ever vote for George W. Bush in a secret ballot.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I don't agree with that at all.
I do think, though, that the idea isn't bad, that you want to go after the McCain independents in New Hampshire.
(BELL RINGING) CARLSON: But this ad is just so obvious and dumb. "I'm a McCain independent." People are going to ignore it.
BEGALA: I like it.
Well, one of John McCain's Republican colleagues in the Senate, Republican Orrin Hatch of Utah, is the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. As such, he's placed a Republican staffer on that committee on leave, pending an investigation into whether that staffer broke into Democratic computers and leaked a confidential Democratic memo.
"I am mortified," Hatch said, "that this improper, unethical and simply unacceptable breach of confidential files may have occurred on my watch" -- unquote. Now, while Senator Hatch takes responsibility for the alleged misconduct of his aides, President Bush has refused to take any responsibility for the potentially criminal leaking of the name of a covert CIA operative allegedly done for political reasons.
Now, Mr. Bush may have defeated Senator Hatch in the race for the presidency in the Republican primaries, but he can't hold a candle to him when it comes to class, integrity and real leadership.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Good for Orrin Hatch.
CARLSON: That's just...
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: You know what? That's's just demagoguery. The real difference is that Orrin Hatch believes he knows who leaked it. George W. Bush and the White House have no idea, despite an FBI investigation ongoing. Bush has said, if we find this guy, he's in deep trouble. And he ought to be. And I think he ought to be.
BEGALA: Bush has said they'll catch the guy, therefore giving a signal. He put John Ashcroft in charge of it, who's not doing a lick of work on it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Are you alleging that the FBI is corrupt because John Ashcroft
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm alleging that John Ashcroft cannot be trusted to investigate George W. Bush.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: John Ashcroft is not... BEGALA: And I'm alleging that George W. Bush should have hauled those guys into his office on the first day and said...
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: ... which one of you did it, and fired them all if
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: It's pretty heavy rhetoric to accuse the Department of Justice of being corrupt, as you just have. I think you should rethink that. I really do.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: I will speak for myself, until Mr. Ashcroft wants to come investigate me, Tucker Carlson.
CARLSON: Gosh.
Well, if you're not an obscenely rich trial lawyer, chances are you probably have not given a dime to the John-Edwards-for-president campaign and you probably don't plan to. Well, Senator Edwards would like to change that, of course, which is why he's begun offering a copy of his autobiography to anyone who gives him $35 or more. The plan will help fund his doomed bid for the White House and move a few copies of his book, which is entitled "Four Trials" -- two birds, one stone.
The Edwards campaign also hopes the book will explain why a former trial lawyer who, until just a very few years ago, was trying Jacuzzi cases, ought to be the president of the United States. As his spokeswoman admitted to "The New York Times" this morning -- quote -- "People don't necessarily understand how his career translates to the presidency."
That's for certain, not that Edwards necessarily had much to do with his own book. According to his campaign, of the $150,000 Edwards received from Simon & Schuster, his publisher, $135,000 of that went to researchers and ghost writers.
BEGALA: Now...
CARLSON: The guy doesn't even pretend to write his own book.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: It's embarrassing.
BEGALA: Jacuzzi cases you say? That case a little girl who...
CARLSON: There were a couple cases.
BEGALA: Excuse me. Let me -- let me finish. This is important. A little girl had her intestines sucked out by a pool that the manufacturer could have prevented with a $1 part. John Edwards stood up to a big corporation. Republicans support the big corporations.
CARLSON: Stood up. Paul, Paul...
BEGALA: Edwards supported that family whose little girl was devastated by that product.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: God bless John Edwards, God bless trial lawyers for standing up to corporate America.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Do you really think you're convincing anybody when you say, Republicans are for the company that kills the little girls? That's...
BEGALA: Of course they are.
CARLSON: That's not an argument. That's a bumper sticker.
BEGALA: Of course they are.
CARLSON: And you don't convince anybody.
BEGALA: Tucker, they're trying to take away all of our rights to stand up to any kind of corporate power. That's what Republicans are all about, sucking up to corporate power.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: That's so overstated, it's insane. Nobody believes a word you say.
BEGALA: Well, are you getting ready to pig out for Thanksgiving? If you are, maybe you should be thinking about what you eat. The diet dilemma: Do we really need to turn Thanksgiving into a low-carb holiday?
And then later, you're not going to believe who's endorsing Dennis Kucinich for the presidency.
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to the live Washington audience, call 202-994-8CNN or e-mail us at CNN@gwu.edu. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Well, by now, most of you probably have your Thanksgiving menus planned. And they probably don't include tofurkey, whatever that is. But since two-thirds of Americans qualify as being overweight -- that is, fat -- it's worth consulting a couple of doctors to see what we should be considering eating for the other 364 days of the year.
In the CROSSFIRE from San Francisco is Dr. Dean Ornish. He's the founder and director of the Preventive Medicine Research Institute and author, among many other books, "Eat More, Weigh Less." And in Philadelphia is Dr. Stuart Trager. He is the chairman of the Atkins Physicians Council, as in the Atkins diet.
Welcome.
BEGALA: Gentlemen, good to see you both again.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Thank you for joining us.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Stuart Trager, a group of physicians calling themselves Physicians For Responsible Medicine called a press conference to talk about the dangers and, in fact, even in some cases fatalities, from the Atkins diet.
Now, here's a spokesman for that group. I want you to listen to what he has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. NEAL BARNARD, PHYSICIANS COMMITTEE FOR RESPONSIBLE MEDICINE: If we look at the nutrient profile, it's exactly the kind of profile you would expect to cause heart disease, to cause kidney disease. There's very little fiber in the Atkins diet. There's an astronomical amount of saturated fat and cholesterol. The protein content is far too high. That taxes the kidneys. It contributes to osteoporosis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Stuart Trager, how do you respond to that?
DR. STUART TRAGER, CHAIRMAN, ATKINS PHYSICIANS COUNCIL: Sure.
Right now, we live in a country where 300,000 people are fighting an epidemic of obesity and not succeeding; 300,000 people are dying each year because of this obesity epidemic. We need to provide people with solutions that work. Neil Barnard is not a concerned physician. Neil Barnard is a vegan animal rights activist who is trying to use science to present his own point of view on how he thinks people should eat, to promote vegetarianism and his vegan agenda.
Science demands that people use the accurate, correct collection of data and present it in a way, in peer-review journals, that stands up and prevents bias like that we're seeing here. What he's talking about really doesn't apply. He's selling half-truths and trying to manipulate a situation to promote an agenda that, quite frankly, doesn't work for the American public.
We see people right now who have tried to fight their weight and manage their weight by reducing calories and by limiting their fat intake, and it's not working.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm sorry. Sorry to jump in, Doctor. I just wanted to get Mr. Ornish, Dr. Ornish's, reaction to that.
If it is true, as "The New York Times" says, 65 percent of Americans are fat, then obesity itself is a real health problem. And we know the Atkins diet works.
DR. DEAN ORNISH, DIRECTOR, PREVENTIVE MEDICINE RESEARCH INSTITUTE: Well, you're right.
CARLSON: It works because people say it works and it works because studies show it works. So why not recommend the Atkins diet?
ORNISH: Well, the Atkins diet is a way to lose weight. And I think one thing that we all agree on is that there really is an epidemic of obesity in this country.
But the goal for me is not just to lose weight. You want to lose weight with amphetamines or fen-phen. The goal is to lose weight in a way that's healthy. And what -- and I agree with Dr. Trager that science can help sort out what is true from what isn't, which is why I have spent the last 26 years of my life doing science published in the leading peer-review journals.
And what did we find? We found that the average person lost 25 pounds and kept half that weight off five years later. There is no long-term data on the Atkins diet. We found they lowered their LDL, or their bad cholesterol, by 40 percent. And we actually found that they were able to reverse heart disease in every way we can measure. The more they followed it, the longer they did it, the more reversal they showed.
And there have never been any studies looking at the effects of an Atkins diet on blood flow to your heart, except for one, which found that it actually got worse. Now, there's no mystery in how you lose weight. You burn more calories by exercise or you eat fewer calories. One thing that Dr. Trager and I, and Dr. Atkins, who I debated a number of times before he died, including here on CROSSFIRE, what we all agree on is that Americans eat way too many what are called simple carbs or refined carbohydrates.
And these are things like sugar, white flower, white rice. And you get a double whammy when you eat all these carbs. You get all these calories that don't fill you up, because you've removed all the fiber. And they get absorbed quickly, so they make your blood sugar zoom up. Your pancreas makes insulin. And the insulin not only lowers your blood sugar, but it causes you to convert those calories into fat. So we both agree on that.
Where we differ is where you go from there. And you don't go from simple carbs to pork rinds and bacon and sausage and butter and Brie. Those are not health foods, even though I would like to be able to tell you they are. You go from simple carbs to what are called whole foods, fruits, vegetables, whole grains, whole wheat flower, brown rice, soy products. Beans and fish and things like this are rich in fiber. The fiber fills you up before you get too many calories.
And it slows the absorption of the food, so you don't get that rapid rise in blood sugar.
(CROSSTALK)
ORNISH: Let me just make one last point and then I'll be quiet. The other reason people get too many calories is, they eat too much fat. And fat has nine calories per gram. And protein and carbs have only four. So when you eat less fat, you get fewer calories without having to eat less food.
So an optimal diet is low in simple carbs, low in fat, high in complex carbs, and high in the fruits and vegetables and grains and beans, that are low in the substances that cause you to get sick and high in at least 1,000 others that are protective.
BEGALA: Stuart Trager, it sounds like common sense. And I have to say, your diet sounds rather counterintuitive. Tell me -- try to persuade me why a big old slab of bacon and a cheeseburger are actually better for me than the whole foods that Dr. Ornish was talking about.
TRAGER: Sure.
The biggest problem is that people have been unable to follow the diet that Dr. Ornish is talking about. And, in fact, they don't need to. What we're finding in good research from prestigious universities, be it Duke, Tufts, Harvard, the University of Pennsylvania, studies that are funded by independent sources like the National Institute of Health or the American Heart Association, that following a diet that reduces carbohydrates in fact not only helps people lose weight, but improves their cardiac risk factors.
What Dr. Ornish doesn't tell you, just another one of the half- truths, is that, when people go on a very low-fat diet, like he recommends and like Dr. Barnard recommends, triglycerides, an independent risk factor for heart disease, go up, and HDL, the good cholesterol, goes down.
(CROSSTALK)
I would expect more from Dr. Ornish than to tell the half-truths.
ORNISH: Stuart, give me a break.
TRAGER: No, listen. (CROSSTALK)
TRAGER: Look, we can tell half-truths about the Fleming (ph) study all you would like.
(CROSSTALK)
ORNISH: Let me tell you about the half-truths.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
TRAGER: When we talk about a high-fat diet, not the Atkins diet, we're telling half-truths. And we need to see more. We need to expect more from each other, Dean, than to tell half-truths and to mislead people.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Excuse me, Doctor.
Dr. Ornish, we're almost out of time. I just want to ask you a quick question, though.
ORNISH: Sure.
CARLSON: You seem to advocate a pretty radical vegetarian diet. And that -- not only does meat make...
ORNISH: No. No.
CARLSON: Oh, you don't advocate a vegetarian diet?
ORNISH: For reversing heart disease, that's what it takes.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Wait. But hold it. My question is, aren't people designed to eat meat?
ORNISH: Wait a minute.
TRAGER: People do eat meat. And they want to eat meat.
(CROSSTALK)
ORNISH: Stuart, let me finish here.
We have proven that heart disease is reversible using the state- of-the-art measures, published in "JAMA," "Circulation," "Lancet," "New England Journal." No one has ever done a study of Atkins showing that it can reverse heart disease. So keep me a break when we're talking about half-truths.
TRAGER: And we're not claiming to reduce heart disease, Dean. ORNISH: When you're talking about cardiac risk...
TRAGER: We're claiming to be able to allow people to lose weight and lower their established risk factors.
(CROSSTALK)
TRAGER: Since this has been shown in real, credible studies, Dean, we need to admit it.
(CROSSTALK)
ORNISH: We have done real, credible studies. And we have published them. And we've found
(CROSSTALK)
TRAGER: And you know what? And it may be that there's no one right way to eat for everyone.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm sorry to have to cut it off.
Stuart Trager, Dr. Dean Ornish out in San Francisco, thank you very much. We're going to have to go to a break and probably sell a bunch of junk food to our audience via commercials.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: But thank you very much, both, gentlemen, for your advice on the diets.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Thanks, guys.
Well, who shot Michael Jackson's new video? That's just one question the FBI and more than a few attorneys want to find an answer to. We'll look at the legal ramifications in the latest twist in the Michael Jackson case just ahead.
And right after the break, Martin Savidge has the latest on the obstacles you just might face trying to get home for the holidays.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
BEGALA: Well, the FBI is checking to see if any federal laws were broken when Michael Jackson and his attorney, Mark Geragos, were secretly videotaped aboard a private jet last week. Tapes were made as Jackson was flying to Santa Barbara to turn himself in on child molestation charges, charges Mr. Jackson vehemently denies. For more on this surprising development in the case, we're joined from Miami by attorney Kendall Coffey.
Kendall, good to see you, sir.
(APPLAUSE)
KENDALL COFFEY, ATTORNEY: Hey, good afternoon.
CARLSON: Kendall, thanks for joining us.
Just a week ago, this case, just from an outsider's perspective, looked like a slam dunk. Michael Jackson molests child, doesn't sound hard to prove. And, in the space of that week, Mark Geragos has planted all these seeds of doubt, that the family is a bunch of money- grubbers, etcetera. Is it possible that Michael Jackson could be charged and then acquitted, do you think?
COFFEY: Well, certainly there's not a slam-dunk from a prosecution standpoint. The leak factories and the rumor mill are in full blast right now.
And, meanwhile, we saw how they took, in effect, advantage of this apparently inexcusable silent video surveillance, turned it into a press conference, turned it into a court order freezing the stuff, proclaiming that Michael Jackson is a victim, not only of this illicit surveillance, but also scurrilous allegations and, by the way, a victim of an accusation from an alleged child victim that's nothing short of a scam.
BEGALA: Well, Kendall, as a former prosecutor, is it a federal crime to surreptitiously videotape Michael Jackson under these situations, or is it the stuff of lawsuits? Just a tort or is it just a nuisance that he ought to just get over?
COFFEY: Well, it's clearly a good lawsuit. If there is an audio component to the video surveillance, then it could well be a federal crime.
But most court decisions say that, if it's purely a silent video, that's not a federal crime. They're also looking at California crimes as possibilities as well.
CARLSON: Jeff Toobin made the point on "PAULA ZAHN" last night that Geragos surrendered Jackson to the authorities before charges were formally filed against him. Do you think this was a blunder?
COFFEY: No.
No, he did exactly the right thing, because, if you say you are innocent, then you, of course, want to go forward to the authorities. You're not going to hide. You're not going to run. You're going to be right there and go through the process.
BEGALA: Well, Kendall, in an earlier interview today with CNN's Art Harris, the Santa Barbara district attorney, Tom Sneddon, apologized for a joke he told at a press conference about Michael Jackson's music, not about the alleged victim, not about the crime.
I have to say, you were a federal prosecutor in Miami. You had to deal with tough, tough criminals. Is this guy tough enough, if he's already whining and apologizing for just telling a joke? Is Tom Sneddon tough enough to
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... Michael Jackson?
COFFEY: Well, I also remember the press conferences were very serious matters. And, frankly, I was a little surprised by some of the joviality.
I think it's a good idea that he apologized, or else he's at some risk of becoming an issue here. They have talked about, 10 years ago, he was sort of the relentless guy trying to make a case. He couldn't. Michael Jackson did a song about him in his 1995 album. So I think it was appropriate for him to apologize, try to take himself out as an issue in this case.
BEGALA: Jackson's got a new Web site, Kendall, in which he calls all of this -- quote -- "a big lie." Is that setting up to call this child, this alleged victim, a big liar? Are they going to attack the kid?
COFFEY: Well, isn't that the message, if you're calling this a big lie? I guess he got the idea from Martha Stewart. I think she was the first one to go with a Web site.
But their strategy, ultimately, is going to be that the child is a victim, not of Michael Jackson, but of adult manipulators who are trying to turn this case, exploit this child into a big settlement, big dollars that the adults can at some point reap for their own benefit. Remember, they may not have brought a civil suit now. But if there is a successful criminal prosecution, a subsequent civil lawsuit following on the coattails of that prosecution could be big enough to get the bringers of that lawsuit most of Neverland.
CARLSON: OK, most of Neverland.
OK, Kendall Coffey in Miami, thanks very much for joining us and explaining the unfolding Michael Jackson case. We'll talk to you again.
BEGALA: Thanks.
COFFEY: Thanks for inviting me.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: New evidence that Dennis Kucinich is running a different kind of campaign, as if we needed more. We'll check out a one-of-a-kind endorsement right after this.
We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Well, finally, Grandfather Twilight has broken his silence. He's endorsing Dennis Kucinich. The campaign Web site quotes the children's book character as saying, no doubt in a wise, gentle voice, "Whenever I hear Dennis speak, I feel the spark of hope again. He spreads the light in people."
There's also a touching endorsement signed in paw prints by the creatures of the forest, none of whom are registered voters.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: It says -- quote -- "We see Dennis Kucinich as uniquely qualified to stand for us and Mother Earth, as well as all of human kind."
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Well, Dennis Kucinich has locked up the pothead vote. There's no doubt about that.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, I'm waiting for President Bush, then, to be endorsed by Smoggy the polluter. That's kind of his thing, Oily the driller, the creatures who destroy the forest.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Dennis Kucinich
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Oily the driller, all the rich and scary characters from Busytown, Huckle Cat and Lowly Worm.
BEGALA: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You know what? I'm all for...
BEGALA: Chokey the arsenic poisoner in the water.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: We'll try to think of some more.
From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: From the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
We will back on tomorrow, Thanksgiving. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
See you then.
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