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CNN Crossfire

Michael Jackson Case Crumbling?

Aired December 04, 2003 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.

In the CROSSFIRE: Case crumbling? The celebrated arrest of the king of pop, still no formal charges filed. The police tip line is bare. Some call the case against Michael Jackson a vendetta.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We didn't go looking for this case. It came to us.

ANNOUNCER: But Jackson's lawyer sees the case evaporating.

MARK GERAGOS, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL JACKSON: He considers this to be a big lie.

ANNOUNCER: And a fowl play for the holiday, a half-baked turkey story from Baghdad -- today on CROSSFIRE.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.

(APPLAUSE)

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Two weeks ago today, Mr. Moonwalk was doing the perp walk. The world watched Michael Jackson in handcuffs, charged with child molestation. Now, of course, the case against the music icon is said by some to be weakening. That debate just ahead.

But, first, we put the impending celebrity trial on hold momentarily for the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert" -- Mr. Carlson.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Mr. Begala.

Well, the Howard Dean juggernaut continues to gain steam in the Granite State. A Zogby International poll released today shows the former Vermont governor defeating his closest rival -- that would be Massachusetts Senator John Kerry -- by a 30-point margin, this on top of yesterday's Zogby results in Iowa showing Dean beating Dick Gephardt 26 to 22 percent. Perhaps due to this new poll position, the self-proclaimed outsider has started courting the Washington insiders, the establishment. Recent discussions with top DNC officials and Democratic backers, including the Association of Trial Lawyers of America, show that Dean may be warming to the Beltway mentality. And good for him. Even now, lawmakers, from -- dismissed Dean as -- quote -- "cockroaches." He mocked them, calling them that earlier this year. They're pursuing him nonetheless.

Some are lining up to kiss his ring and help with campaign fund- raising, which is a smart move, because, believe it or not, Howard Dean is likely to become the next leader of the Democratic Party. His new followers are wise to get used to it.

And that includes you, Paul. Congratulations.

BEGALA: Look, I'm not -- I'm neutral in this. I'm not for everybody. But this is a remarkable development, this poll. He's up 30 points, as you said, in New Hampshire. And we got a ways to go before then, but it's a commanding lead. It's his to lose now.

CARLSON: It's interesting -- it will be interesting, from my point of view, to see if, the Clinton people...

(BELL RINGING)

CARLSON: ... Clinton people like you will, in the end, swallow hard and accept Howard Dean as the party's leader. They hate him so much.

BEGALA: In a heartbeat. He's not -- I'll tell you what, ABB, man, anybody but Bush, that's my issue.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: Well, a new poll shows...

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: ... that the vast majority of Americans reject President Bush's argument that his war in Iraq has reduced terrorism. A remarkable 70 percent tell the Program on International Policy Attitudes that the war in Iraq has not made us safer from terrorism. And 71 percent say the U.N., not the U.S., should take the lead in establishing a new government in Iraq.

President Bush's reaction was said to be: 71 percent, wow, that's almost half.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: But then Mr. Bush swung into action. Rumor is, he plans on firing his photographer and bringing in a new team to create brand new photo-ops.

CARLSON: You know... BEGALA: It seems like the photo-ops aren't working.

CARLSON: You know, that statistic about 71 percent want the U.N. to take the lead. The U.N. has pretty much pulled out of Iraq. The U.N. has shown no initiative at all. The U.N. isn't capable of running Iraq, doesn't appear to want to run Iraq. That's a fantasy. It's infantile. And it doesn't address the real question, what do we do next?

BEGALA: Well, first, we have to get rid of Mr. Bush, because, when he is gone, a new leader can bring new allies in to share the burden with us.

But as long as he's in there...

CARLSON: Paul, Paul, Paul...

BEGALA: ... no one is going to want to help us.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: Paul, that's such a non-serious...

BEGALA: That's how you internationalize the conflict.

CARLSON: That's such a nonserious point. The election...

BEGALA: No, it's not. It's deeply serious.

CARLSON: No, the election is not for almost a full year. Between now and then, the United States is charged with...

BEGALA: He could resign, which would be honorable.

CARLSON: Has a solemn moral duty to get Iraq under control. What do we do now? No Democrat has an answer.

BEGALA: Because...

(BELL RINGING)

BEGALA: We need more foreign troops. We need more allies.

CARLSON: But that's not...

BEGALA: But they won't come as long as George W. Bush, who insulted them...

CARLSON: Paul...

BEGALA: ... is still our leader.

CARLSON: They didn't want to come in the first place. And that's not going to happen, in any case.

BEGALA: That's why we need a better leader to bring them along. CARLSON: With a year to go.

Well, speaking of the election, doomed Democratic presidential candidate Joe Lieberman is declaring war on Ding-Dongs and Cheetos. The Connecticut senator is asking the Federal Trade Commission to investigate whether there's a connection between junk food advertising and the expanding waistlines of tubby youngsters.

With Lieberman in the Oval Office -- and don't worry, that will not happen -- America could look forward to nutritional information complete with a parental warning on every package of Ho-Hos. Restaurant chains might also be required to provide nutritional information on menus. And the Agriculture Department might even get in on the act by setting standards for food sold in school vending machines. Can you imagine?

Western civilization itself is under attack from Islamic extremism and Joe Lieberman is fretting about Twinkies. Well, here's an idea. Why don't the liberal food neurotics back off and leave other people's plates alone? Truly, why do you people need to weigh in on what we eat? Leave us alone.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Give us the facts. That's all Joe is saying. God bless Joe Lieberman.

CARLSON: A parental warning?

BEGALA: Corporate America should be required to disclose to us what kind of garbage...

CARLSON: No, no.

BEGALA: ... they're putting in the food that they want us to feed our children.

(CROSSTALK)

(APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: It's on the package right now.

BEGALA: The simple facts.

CARLSON: Paul,...

BEGALA: No, it is not on a lot of the packages now.

CARLSON: Actually, it is on every single prepared food package in the United States.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Not in a restaurant. Go to McDonald's. They could put it on their wrapper, but they don't. They should. CARLSON: Imagine -- imagine the arrogance of someone who would think that a Twinkie needs a parental warning...

(BELL RINGING)

CARLSON: ... as if you don't know it's filled with sugar.

BEGALA: Just give us the facts. Just give us the facts.

CARLSON: They're already on the package.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Well, the Presidential Medal of Freedom is our nation's highest civilian honor. Yesterday, President Bush tarnished that award by giving it to right-wing hack Robert Bartley.

As editorial editor of "The Wall Street Journal," Mr. Bartley presided over a vicious, vituperative vendetta against President Clinton and everyone around him. Bartley's editorials were referenced in the poignant suicide note of Vince Foster, who wrote -- quote -- "The 'WSJ' editors lie without consequence" -- unquote. Bartley's rants now litter the dustbin of history. He was wrong about the Clinton economic program, wrong about the Clinton foreign policy, wrong about Whitewater, and pretty much every issue he ever addressed.

But Mr. Bush says Bartley -- quote -- "helped shape the times in which we live" -- unquote. Well, that he did. He replaced Ronald Reagan's sunny optimism with paranoia, cruelty, and bitterness. And for our president to honor this thug disgraces the Medal of Freedom. Shame on George Bush.

(APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: You know, if you disagree with the guy, you don't need to call him a right-wing hack or a thug.

BEGALA: He is.

CARLSON: Second, it's time for you get over the Clinton years.

Third, it's not clear that was Vince Foster's suicide note. And, fourth, for you to imply that some of "The Wall Street Journal" is responsible for this man killing himself is horrible charge to imply.

BEGALA: I didn't imply anything. I said

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: It wasn't necessarily a suicide note.

BEGALA: When they found the note that Foster note, his last writing, it had a reference to the lies in "The Wall Street Journal."

CARLSON: It wasn't clear that it was hit his last writing.

BEGALA: I'm also saying, if Mr. Bush wants to change the tone...

(BELL RINGING)

BEGALA: .,.. why does he pick the biggest hate-monger on the kook right and give him our nation's highest honor? Shame on him.

(APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: Why are you calling him names?

BEGALA: Shame on him.

CARLSON: If you disagree with the guy, just say, I disagree with his politics.

BEGALA: You know what? President Clinton gave that award to Bob Dole. That gives honor to the award and shows the kind of character Bill Clinton has.

CARLSON: Why don't you make an argument him, rather than call him names, Paul?

BEGALA: Why does Mr. Bush have to give it to this hack?

Well, can the king of pop beat the rap? In the case against Michael Jackson, some are beginning to wonder, where's the beef?

And then later, where's the turkey? This bird is not all that it's cooked up to be.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

On November 20, Michael Jackson was paraded in handcuffs into the Santa Barbara County, California, Sheriff's Department. He was arrested, booked and then set free on $3 million bond on suspicion of child molestation. Two weeks later, the district attorney has not filed formal charges. Apparently, that won't happen until December 15. Now, some lawyers are saying, that's not unusual; it doesn't mean that there are any problems with the case. But others aren't so sure.

So let's see what our lawyers have to say. Wendy Murphy is a former prosecutor. She's in Boston. Mickey Sherman also joins us. He's a criminal defense attorney. He's in Stamford, Connecticut.

Thank you both very much.

(APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: Wendy, I'm not much of a Michael Jackson defender. But I must say, I have to wonder why this guy has not been formally charged yet and why the formal charges keep being delayed. Why do you think that is?

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, I don't think we can make much of it or -- we really have to speculate, because things are a little bit different in California.

They often have much more time between the original charging process that we saw in November and the actual formal date for formal charges. One of the things I've heard and that the defense apparently doesn't even contest is that the arraignment date has already been pushed off to January because Mark Geragos has a vacation scheduled with his family at the end of the -- at the end of December.

So this really isn't unusual at all. And, frankly, it could be because the police have received some extra tips from the phone line that they set up. It could be that there are other victims out there. We really don't know and we do have to speculate. But I don't see it as a weakening of the case, because the case is the child's testimony. And that hasn't changed.

CARLSON: But wait a second, Wendy. But isn't that the point? I guess my question is, isn't it a little unfair? I mean, they arrest this guy, in the most public possible way, on November 20. Don't they owe him, even if he's a child molester, don't they owe him sort of speedy adjudication here? Why are they dragging it out?

MURPHY: You know, Tucker, it's almost funny to hear it characterized as unfair to Michael. I think Michael Jackson would rather stick pins in his eyes than show up for another court appearance in this case. Rushing this case along would be criticized. The prosecutor would be accused of doing something wrong for moving too quickly.

The prosecution can't win in this case. The defense is going to complain about everything. And, really, there is not much to this delay. I don't even think it's much of a delay, as California and law and practice goes.

BEGALA: Well, in fact Mickey Sherman, picking up on that, doesn't Wendy have a good point? In fact, I'm told, for example, California prosecutors waited a year before charging Robert Blake in the murder case there. They waited eight months before charging Phil Spector in a similar case.

MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, and look what happened to Robert Blake.

BEGALA: What's the big deal about two weeks?

SHERMAN: Look what happened to Robert Blake. They locked him up, no bond. Then they finally went through a preliminary hearing. And it was so weak and shabby that the judge let him out on bond. And I think it does show weakness on their part.

I think the state's attorney, when he went out on that press conference, where he was kind of gleeful and giddy and joking about how he hates Michael Jackson's music, they either had the goods then or they didn't. And what they did is, they basically started a telethon and they have asked other people to come forward. And I think that's why we're waiting, because they're want to see other victims come forward.

And if they do come forward, it's going to be very problematic for Michael Jackson. But if they don't come forward, if this is all they have in 10 years of waiting for this guy, I don't think they got much of a case.

BEGALA: Well, Mickey, here's what Mr. Jackson...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Just a second, Wendy.

Here's what Mr. Jackson's attorney says, all right? He's a brilliant lawyer. His name is Mark Geragos. And here's what he said -- "We will not sit back and allow him" -- that Mr. Jackson -- to be abused. And that's what actually going on here. If anybody doesn't think based upon what's happened so far that the true motivation of these charges and these allegations is anything but money and the seeking of money, then they're living in their own Neverland."

Now, that's a rather aggressive defense, to suggest Michael Jackson is the one being abused here, Mickey. Is that over the top?

SHERMAN: Well, he's the defendant in this case.

I mean, you want so too say it's about the victims, but it's about Michael Jackson. His rights are the ones that are being protected or abused here. And I think Geragos is right. He's got to come out swinging. And I think he has to have some good-faith basis to say that. I don't think he's just swinging in the dark, because it's not going to win him any points later on, if he doesn't deliver the goods.

(CROSSTALK)

MURPHY: A good-faith basis.

(CROSSTALK)

MURPHY: It's almost funny to hear this attack about, oh, it's all about money. What wealthy person who has been accused of a crime hasn't said, it's all about money? And it never is.

And if it was all about money, Mark Geragos would have sued the family by now, because he showed a real willingness to slap a lawsuit on the guy who took his picture on the plane. He's not suing the family, because it isn't about money.

SHERMAN: No, he can't sue the family.

MURPHY: And he doesn't have the goods.

SHERMAN: If he sues the family, it puts Michael Jackson ripe for a deposition. He can't do that. He can't put him on the witness stand right now.

MURPHY: Too bad. Hey, if you're innocent, what are you afraid of a deposition for, Mickey?

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: What's the problem with putting Michael under oath?

SHERMAN: The problem is that he shouldn't be forced to testify until it's his time for trial in the criminal case. It shouldn't be an exploratory session for the alleged victims here. I mean, it's just not done.

(CROSSTALK)

MURPHY: That's a fancy way of saying you're afraid because he's guilty.

SHERMAN: No.

(CROSSTALK)

MURPHY: You're just basically say he has a Fifth Amendment right and something to hide.

CARLSON: Wendy, Wendy -- hold on, Wendy. I want to ask you about...

MURPHY: And that's why a deposition in a civil case would be bad for him.

CARLSON: I want to ask about a piece in "The New York Times" this morning. One of the things we learned in the Catholic sex scandal is that pedophiles tend to be pretty prolific.

Given that, there's a report today in "The Times" that the district attorney put this -- out this line for people -- this tip line for people to call who have been molested by Jackson and haven't gotten much of a response. It's pretty interesting, isn't it? Wouldn't you expect, I don't know, dozens of people to call up and say, yes, I was molested by Michael Jackson?

Are you surprised?

MURPHY: Actually -- you know, actually, Tucker, I do think that most predatory pedophiles do have lots of victims. But the fact that people aren't calling in droves doesn't mean he hasn't hurt lots of kid.

We know, at a minimum, that he hurt a child in 1993. There have been reports of many other settlements between 1993 and now. And if you've received several hundred thousand dollars in hush money from Michael Jackson, why would you call the tip line? All that means is, you're going to get sued for violating the confidentiality clause he made you sign when you got the money.

SHERMAN: Tucker, you're 100 percent right.

People who commit this crime don't do it once, whether they're a priest, a coach, a doctor. It happens all the time. I've represented them. I've prosecuted them. And I know Wendy is familiar with their history too. They don't do it just once or twice. They do it all their lives. And if this guy is such -- if this guy is guilty, there are droves, as she says, droves of victims out there. And a lot of them should or would be coming forward.

And if they're not coming forward, there's something inherently wrong with whether or not he should be charged.

BEGALA: Well, Mickey, let me ask you.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Let me ask Mickey a question, though. I'm sorry, Wendy. I want to put Mickey on the spot, though.

As a defense attorney, you're not representing Mr. Jackson. Let's pretend you are.

SHERMAN: Yes.

BEGALA: Isn't this a bit of a setback, when Claire Reeves, who is the founder of Mothers Against Sexual Abuse, I think speaks for most people with common sense, when she says: "I don't know of any other 45-year-old man who is not a child molester who likes to share his bed with children who are not his. I consider that a huge red flag."

Isn't that a bit of a drawback for his defense lawyers, that he's advertising he likes to sleep with children?

(CROSSTALK)

SHERMAN: I know you're going to think I'm being creative and inventive here, but I got to tell you, that's almost a defense here. Michael Jackson is strange. He is weird. He has these habits which he has worn on his sleeve, to his detriment, for years.

So, for you or I to do that, of course it is odd and would probably be criminal.

BEGALA: Rules don't apply to Michael Jackson?

(CROSSTALK)

SHERMAN: For Michael Jackson, this is him.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Mickey, wait.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Hold. Hold on. Wait. No, let me just -- hold on.

There's weird and then there's something beyond weird. I want to read you a quote from Cher, who I think knows something about weird. Here's what Cher said about Michael Jackson. This is a quote: "I don't really care what he does to his face." Understandable she wouldn't. "He could just erase it, as far as I'm concerned. I don't like him anymore. And it's because of his children. I cannot imagine putting my children through what he put his children through. I saw the recent documentary on him, and I thought, this guy is nuts. He shouldn't have these children."

Now, when Cher thinks you're an unfit parent, not good.

(LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE)

SHERMAN: Yes, but where does Rosie stand on this, Tucker?

MURPHY: It's not just Cher.

SHERMAN: Where does Rosie and Oprah -- we have got to get a consensus here. No one is saying he's not strange. No one is saying he's not nuts. The question, is he a criminal? That's the deal here.

MURPHY: You know, look, look, look, can we talk about the fact of these weird characteristics as not being some kind of generic weirdness? But things we know about pedophiles -- and the studies are out there that tell us this -- are, they're narcissistic. They're naive. They're immature. They are self-centered. They spend very little time with peers of their own age. And they spend gobs of time with children, especially prepubescent boys.

Hello, Mickey Sherman?

SHERMAN: That's fine. Those are great profiles, but let's talk about this case.

MURPHY: That's not weird. That's a pedophile, period.

BEGALA: Wendy, let me press that point, though. That is a generalization, though. Doesn't the prosecutor at some point have to prove rape, child molestation?

MURPHY: Absolutely.

BEGALA: Not just -- not just weirdness. Well, where are facts?

MURPHY: Look, Paul, I am not...

BEGALA: Where's the case?

MURPHY: I don't care what he looks like. I don't care if he's black, white, gay, straight, female, male or some combination of all of the above. That's not what I'm judging him on. No one should judge him on that. But we should judge him on the testimony of the child. And we haven't heard from that child yet.

(CROSSTALK)

MURPHY: And we're talking about how weak the case is. That child deserves to be heard in a court of law and to have his demeanor and his credibility judged by unbiased people who don't dislike Michael Jackson for all the wrong reasons...

SHERMAN: Wendy, there's nobody -- nobody is arguing about that. We're just saying...

MURPHY: ... and who won't disbelieve the child for all the wrong reasons.

SHERMAN: We're saying, by the same token, we shouldn't say that Michael Jackson is guilty yet. We should say, let's see what shakes out in court and let's see if there's any more other victims coming out of the woodwork.

MURPHY: Yes, but I'm saying that, look

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: All right. I'm sorry, Wendy, I'm just going to have to cut you off there.

We're just going to take a quick commercial break. And we'll being be back momentarily.

When our guests return, we'll put them in "Rapid Fire." We'll try this one on for size. Will Democrats support Michael Jackson, one of their biggest fund raisers?

And coming up in Wolf Blitzer's headlines, the search for the missing student is -- he will give you an update on that.

We'll be right back.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Time now for "Rapid Fire," where our questions come with machine gun-like rapidity. We're talking about the case against singer and renowned Democratic fund raiser Michael Jackson.

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: If there is a case.

In the CROSSFIRE, former prosecutor Wendy Murphy and defense attorney Mickey Sherman.

BEGALA: Wendy, I've got to ask you, if he goes to jail, does he lose the nose? Apparently, it's a prosthetic nose. Does that come off if he goes to jail?

MURPHY: I don't know. I've never heard of a person having to remove their prosthetic device as a punishment. I think, actually, he'll probably be able to keep it. I don't know. I haven't heard of such a case before.

CARLSON: Well, the nose question remains open, then.

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: Mickey, Michael Jackson, as you know, not only a great singer, but a major Democratic fund raiser. Should this go to trial, do you expect say, Terry McAuliffe, head of the party, to appear as a character witness on Michael Jackson's behalf?

SHERMAN: No. And, you know, when I think Michael Jackson, I somehow don't think Democratic fund raiser at the same time. I think that the politicians will be running as fast as they can away from him, a la Cher.

CARLSON: Party's over. That's another casualty. I'm sorry.

BEGALA: Wendy, I will grant you that Mark Geragos is as good as they get, but he was in court just yesterday at a hearing defending accused murderer Scott Peterson. Now, today, he's working for Michael Jackson. Is he stretched too thin?

SHERMAN: No, you know, that's what good lawyers do.

MURPHY: Mickey...

SHERMAN: I always use the example not of people like me or Mark Geragos or Johnnie Cochran, but public defenders around the country, people who get paid very little to do a lot. They represent major murder cases and rape cases and kidnapping cases two, three, four, or five at a time routinely. It's just the nature of the business. It doesn't mean they're going to be bad at one.

MURPHY: You know, I wouldn't describe...

CARLSON: Wendy...

MURPHY: I...

CARLSON: Let me just ask you. Another nature of the business is to play the race card in cases like this. Do you think Geragos will?

MURPHY: You know, look, most defense attorneys will play the race card from bottom of the deck, if they can. And, by the bottom of the deck, I mean it really doesn't have anything to do with the case, but they do it anyway, because it gets them some bang for the buck.

I think it's unacceptable, un-American. I think it's outrageous.

(BELL RINGING)

MURPHY: It should be unethical to play the race card where it doesn't belong. And it doesn't belong in Michael Jackson's case.

BEGALA: Wendy Murphy, Mickey Sherman, thank you both very much.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Two of the best in the business. This case and this debate will go on. Thank you again for your time.

Just ahead, a post-Thanksgiving conundrum: When is a turkey not a turkey?

The answer when CROSSFIRE comes back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

A thanksgiving turkey in more ways than one. It was the highlight of the holiday, President Bush's hush-hush trip to visit the troops in Baghdad, complete with pictures of food fit for a king. Well, it turns out the turkey Mr. Bush grabbed was not for eating. "The Washington Post" reports it was a real turkey, but it was a centerpiece just for show. What the soldiers actually got was steamed turkey and stuffing from the cafeteria line, all of it, by the way, cooked by the fine folks at Halliburton.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: It turns out the president never did serve that turkey to the troops. But he did serve a lot of baloney to the American people.

CARLSON: Well, as...

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: Well, as someone who has eaten quite a few centerpieces in my time, I am not one to cast stones.

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: I would say, the whole trip was for show. Sometimes, show is the whole point. The statement, the symbolism of the president going into one of the most dangerous places in the world to show support for the troops, that's the essence of the trip. That's why

(CROSSTALK)

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: I think that's a very good -- that's a very good point.

But reality matters, too. Thank God he had perfect security while he was there. But our soldiers don't. There's a new story in the papers today... CARLSON: He didn't have perfect security

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: ... that our men and women there don't even have enough body armor, body vests to protect themselves.

CARLSON: Paul, Paul, Paul, Paul...

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: He owes our soldiers better protection than he's giving them, yes, he does.

CARLSON: Actually, he didn't have perfect security when he was there. There was real risk in there. Ask anybody who has tried to fly into Baghdad Airport, even the president of the United States. And it's the physical risk and the physical courage it implies that makes this one of the greatest statements of his whole presidency.

(APPLAUSE)

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: So why does he have to sully it by misleading, for example, about this nonsense that somehow...

CARLSON: It's a stupid turkey. Who cares?

BEGALA: He's telling us this totally false story. The White House tells us this false story that British Airways saw his plane and radioed in. And it was all fiction. He just can't tell the truth about anything.

CARLSON: You know, if you're against the war, argue against the war

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: ... turkey.

BEGALA: I'm just arguing against lying.

From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.

Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE.

"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" follows us.

We will see you tomorrow. Good night.

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Aired December 4, 2003 - 16:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.

In the CROSSFIRE: Case crumbling? The celebrated arrest of the king of pop, still no formal charges filed. The police tip line is bare. Some call the case against Michael Jackson a vendetta.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We didn't go looking for this case. It came to us.

ANNOUNCER: But Jackson's lawyer sees the case evaporating.

MARK GERAGOS, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL JACKSON: He considers this to be a big lie.

ANNOUNCER: And a fowl play for the holiday, a half-baked turkey story from Baghdad -- today on CROSSFIRE.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.

(APPLAUSE)

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Two weeks ago today, Mr. Moonwalk was doing the perp walk. The world watched Michael Jackson in handcuffs, charged with child molestation. Now, of course, the case against the music icon is said by some to be weakening. That debate just ahead.

But, first, we put the impending celebrity trial on hold momentarily for the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert" -- Mr. Carlson.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Mr. Begala.

Well, the Howard Dean juggernaut continues to gain steam in the Granite State. A Zogby International poll released today shows the former Vermont governor defeating his closest rival -- that would be Massachusetts Senator John Kerry -- by a 30-point margin, this on top of yesterday's Zogby results in Iowa showing Dean beating Dick Gephardt 26 to 22 percent. Perhaps due to this new poll position, the self-proclaimed outsider has started courting the Washington insiders, the establishment. Recent discussions with top DNC officials and Democratic backers, including the Association of Trial Lawyers of America, show that Dean may be warming to the Beltway mentality. And good for him. Even now, lawmakers, from -- dismissed Dean as -- quote -- "cockroaches." He mocked them, calling them that earlier this year. They're pursuing him nonetheless.

Some are lining up to kiss his ring and help with campaign fund- raising, which is a smart move, because, believe it or not, Howard Dean is likely to become the next leader of the Democratic Party. His new followers are wise to get used to it.

And that includes you, Paul. Congratulations.

BEGALA: Look, I'm not -- I'm neutral in this. I'm not for everybody. But this is a remarkable development, this poll. He's up 30 points, as you said, in New Hampshire. And we got a ways to go before then, but it's a commanding lead. It's his to lose now.

CARLSON: It's interesting -- it will be interesting, from my point of view, to see if, the Clinton people...

(BELL RINGING)

CARLSON: ... Clinton people like you will, in the end, swallow hard and accept Howard Dean as the party's leader. They hate him so much.

BEGALA: In a heartbeat. He's not -- I'll tell you what, ABB, man, anybody but Bush, that's my issue.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: Well, a new poll shows...

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: ... that the vast majority of Americans reject President Bush's argument that his war in Iraq has reduced terrorism. A remarkable 70 percent tell the Program on International Policy Attitudes that the war in Iraq has not made us safer from terrorism. And 71 percent say the U.N., not the U.S., should take the lead in establishing a new government in Iraq.

President Bush's reaction was said to be: 71 percent, wow, that's almost half.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: But then Mr. Bush swung into action. Rumor is, he plans on firing his photographer and bringing in a new team to create brand new photo-ops.

CARLSON: You know... BEGALA: It seems like the photo-ops aren't working.

CARLSON: You know, that statistic about 71 percent want the U.N. to take the lead. The U.N. has pretty much pulled out of Iraq. The U.N. has shown no initiative at all. The U.N. isn't capable of running Iraq, doesn't appear to want to run Iraq. That's a fantasy. It's infantile. And it doesn't address the real question, what do we do next?

BEGALA: Well, first, we have to get rid of Mr. Bush, because, when he is gone, a new leader can bring new allies in to share the burden with us.

But as long as he's in there...

CARLSON: Paul, Paul, Paul...

BEGALA: ... no one is going to want to help us.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: Paul, that's such a non-serious...

BEGALA: That's how you internationalize the conflict.

CARLSON: That's such a nonserious point. The election...

BEGALA: No, it's not. It's deeply serious.

CARLSON: No, the election is not for almost a full year. Between now and then, the United States is charged with...

BEGALA: He could resign, which would be honorable.

CARLSON: Has a solemn moral duty to get Iraq under control. What do we do now? No Democrat has an answer.

BEGALA: Because...

(BELL RINGING)

BEGALA: We need more foreign troops. We need more allies.

CARLSON: But that's not...

BEGALA: But they won't come as long as George W. Bush, who insulted them...

CARLSON: Paul...

BEGALA: ... is still our leader.

CARLSON: They didn't want to come in the first place. And that's not going to happen, in any case.

BEGALA: That's why we need a better leader to bring them along. CARLSON: With a year to go.

Well, speaking of the election, doomed Democratic presidential candidate Joe Lieberman is declaring war on Ding-Dongs and Cheetos. The Connecticut senator is asking the Federal Trade Commission to investigate whether there's a connection between junk food advertising and the expanding waistlines of tubby youngsters.

With Lieberman in the Oval Office -- and don't worry, that will not happen -- America could look forward to nutritional information complete with a parental warning on every package of Ho-Hos. Restaurant chains might also be required to provide nutritional information on menus. And the Agriculture Department might even get in on the act by setting standards for food sold in school vending machines. Can you imagine?

Western civilization itself is under attack from Islamic extremism and Joe Lieberman is fretting about Twinkies. Well, here's an idea. Why don't the liberal food neurotics back off and leave other people's plates alone? Truly, why do you people need to weigh in on what we eat? Leave us alone.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Give us the facts. That's all Joe is saying. God bless Joe Lieberman.

CARLSON: A parental warning?

BEGALA: Corporate America should be required to disclose to us what kind of garbage...

CARLSON: No, no.

BEGALA: ... they're putting in the food that they want us to feed our children.

(CROSSTALK)

(APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: It's on the package right now.

BEGALA: The simple facts.

CARLSON: Paul,...

BEGALA: No, it is not on a lot of the packages now.

CARLSON: Actually, it is on every single prepared food package in the United States.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Not in a restaurant. Go to McDonald's. They could put it on their wrapper, but they don't. They should. CARLSON: Imagine -- imagine the arrogance of someone who would think that a Twinkie needs a parental warning...

(BELL RINGING)

CARLSON: ... as if you don't know it's filled with sugar.

BEGALA: Just give us the facts. Just give us the facts.

CARLSON: They're already on the package.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Well, the Presidential Medal of Freedom is our nation's highest civilian honor. Yesterday, President Bush tarnished that award by giving it to right-wing hack Robert Bartley.

As editorial editor of "The Wall Street Journal," Mr. Bartley presided over a vicious, vituperative vendetta against President Clinton and everyone around him. Bartley's editorials were referenced in the poignant suicide note of Vince Foster, who wrote -- quote -- "The 'WSJ' editors lie without consequence" -- unquote. Bartley's rants now litter the dustbin of history. He was wrong about the Clinton economic program, wrong about the Clinton foreign policy, wrong about Whitewater, and pretty much every issue he ever addressed.

But Mr. Bush says Bartley -- quote -- "helped shape the times in which we live" -- unquote. Well, that he did. He replaced Ronald Reagan's sunny optimism with paranoia, cruelty, and bitterness. And for our president to honor this thug disgraces the Medal of Freedom. Shame on George Bush.

(APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: You know, if you disagree with the guy, you don't need to call him a right-wing hack or a thug.

BEGALA: He is.

CARLSON: Second, it's time for you get over the Clinton years.

Third, it's not clear that was Vince Foster's suicide note. And, fourth, for you to imply that some of "The Wall Street Journal" is responsible for this man killing himself is horrible charge to imply.

BEGALA: I didn't imply anything. I said

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: It wasn't necessarily a suicide note.

BEGALA: When they found the note that Foster note, his last writing, it had a reference to the lies in "The Wall Street Journal."

CARLSON: It wasn't clear that it was hit his last writing.

BEGALA: I'm also saying, if Mr. Bush wants to change the tone...

(BELL RINGING)

BEGALA: .,.. why does he pick the biggest hate-monger on the kook right and give him our nation's highest honor? Shame on him.

(APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: Why are you calling him names?

BEGALA: Shame on him.

CARLSON: If you disagree with the guy, just say, I disagree with his politics.

BEGALA: You know what? President Clinton gave that award to Bob Dole. That gives honor to the award and shows the kind of character Bill Clinton has.

CARLSON: Why don't you make an argument him, rather than call him names, Paul?

BEGALA: Why does Mr. Bush have to give it to this hack?

Well, can the king of pop beat the rap? In the case against Michael Jackson, some are beginning to wonder, where's the beef?

And then later, where's the turkey? This bird is not all that it's cooked up to be.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

On November 20, Michael Jackson was paraded in handcuffs into the Santa Barbara County, California, Sheriff's Department. He was arrested, booked and then set free on $3 million bond on suspicion of child molestation. Two weeks later, the district attorney has not filed formal charges. Apparently, that won't happen until December 15. Now, some lawyers are saying, that's not unusual; it doesn't mean that there are any problems with the case. But others aren't so sure.

So let's see what our lawyers have to say. Wendy Murphy is a former prosecutor. She's in Boston. Mickey Sherman also joins us. He's a criminal defense attorney. He's in Stamford, Connecticut.

Thank you both very much.

(APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: Wendy, I'm not much of a Michael Jackson defender. But I must say, I have to wonder why this guy has not been formally charged yet and why the formal charges keep being delayed. Why do you think that is?

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, I don't think we can make much of it or -- we really have to speculate, because things are a little bit different in California.

They often have much more time between the original charging process that we saw in November and the actual formal date for formal charges. One of the things I've heard and that the defense apparently doesn't even contest is that the arraignment date has already been pushed off to January because Mark Geragos has a vacation scheduled with his family at the end of the -- at the end of December.

So this really isn't unusual at all. And, frankly, it could be because the police have received some extra tips from the phone line that they set up. It could be that there are other victims out there. We really don't know and we do have to speculate. But I don't see it as a weakening of the case, because the case is the child's testimony. And that hasn't changed.

CARLSON: But wait a second, Wendy. But isn't that the point? I guess my question is, isn't it a little unfair? I mean, they arrest this guy, in the most public possible way, on November 20. Don't they owe him, even if he's a child molester, don't they owe him sort of speedy adjudication here? Why are they dragging it out?

MURPHY: You know, Tucker, it's almost funny to hear it characterized as unfair to Michael. I think Michael Jackson would rather stick pins in his eyes than show up for another court appearance in this case. Rushing this case along would be criticized. The prosecutor would be accused of doing something wrong for moving too quickly.

The prosecution can't win in this case. The defense is going to complain about everything. And, really, there is not much to this delay. I don't even think it's much of a delay, as California and law and practice goes.

BEGALA: Well, in fact Mickey Sherman, picking up on that, doesn't Wendy have a good point? In fact, I'm told, for example, California prosecutors waited a year before charging Robert Blake in the murder case there. They waited eight months before charging Phil Spector in a similar case.

MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, and look what happened to Robert Blake.

BEGALA: What's the big deal about two weeks?

SHERMAN: Look what happened to Robert Blake. They locked him up, no bond. Then they finally went through a preliminary hearing. And it was so weak and shabby that the judge let him out on bond. And I think it does show weakness on their part.

I think the state's attorney, when he went out on that press conference, where he was kind of gleeful and giddy and joking about how he hates Michael Jackson's music, they either had the goods then or they didn't. And what they did is, they basically started a telethon and they have asked other people to come forward. And I think that's why we're waiting, because they're want to see other victims come forward.

And if they do come forward, it's going to be very problematic for Michael Jackson. But if they don't come forward, if this is all they have in 10 years of waiting for this guy, I don't think they got much of a case.

BEGALA: Well, Mickey, here's what Mr. Jackson...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Just a second, Wendy.

Here's what Mr. Jackson's attorney says, all right? He's a brilliant lawyer. His name is Mark Geragos. And here's what he said -- "We will not sit back and allow him" -- that Mr. Jackson -- to be abused. And that's what actually going on here. If anybody doesn't think based upon what's happened so far that the true motivation of these charges and these allegations is anything but money and the seeking of money, then they're living in their own Neverland."

Now, that's a rather aggressive defense, to suggest Michael Jackson is the one being abused here, Mickey. Is that over the top?

SHERMAN: Well, he's the defendant in this case.

I mean, you want so too say it's about the victims, but it's about Michael Jackson. His rights are the ones that are being protected or abused here. And I think Geragos is right. He's got to come out swinging. And I think he has to have some good-faith basis to say that. I don't think he's just swinging in the dark, because it's not going to win him any points later on, if he doesn't deliver the goods.

(CROSSTALK)

MURPHY: A good-faith basis.

(CROSSTALK)

MURPHY: It's almost funny to hear this attack about, oh, it's all about money. What wealthy person who has been accused of a crime hasn't said, it's all about money? And it never is.

And if it was all about money, Mark Geragos would have sued the family by now, because he showed a real willingness to slap a lawsuit on the guy who took his picture on the plane. He's not suing the family, because it isn't about money.

SHERMAN: No, he can't sue the family.

MURPHY: And he doesn't have the goods.

SHERMAN: If he sues the family, it puts Michael Jackson ripe for a deposition. He can't do that. He can't put him on the witness stand right now.

MURPHY: Too bad. Hey, if you're innocent, what are you afraid of a deposition for, Mickey?

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: What's the problem with putting Michael under oath?

SHERMAN: The problem is that he shouldn't be forced to testify until it's his time for trial in the criminal case. It shouldn't be an exploratory session for the alleged victims here. I mean, it's just not done.

(CROSSTALK)

MURPHY: That's a fancy way of saying you're afraid because he's guilty.

SHERMAN: No.

(CROSSTALK)

MURPHY: You're just basically say he has a Fifth Amendment right and something to hide.

CARLSON: Wendy, Wendy -- hold on, Wendy. I want to ask you about...

MURPHY: And that's why a deposition in a civil case would be bad for him.

CARLSON: I want to ask about a piece in "The New York Times" this morning. One of the things we learned in the Catholic sex scandal is that pedophiles tend to be pretty prolific.

Given that, there's a report today in "The Times" that the district attorney put this -- out this line for people -- this tip line for people to call who have been molested by Jackson and haven't gotten much of a response. It's pretty interesting, isn't it? Wouldn't you expect, I don't know, dozens of people to call up and say, yes, I was molested by Michael Jackson?

Are you surprised?

MURPHY: Actually -- you know, actually, Tucker, I do think that most predatory pedophiles do have lots of victims. But the fact that people aren't calling in droves doesn't mean he hasn't hurt lots of kid.

We know, at a minimum, that he hurt a child in 1993. There have been reports of many other settlements between 1993 and now. And if you've received several hundred thousand dollars in hush money from Michael Jackson, why would you call the tip line? All that means is, you're going to get sued for violating the confidentiality clause he made you sign when you got the money.

SHERMAN: Tucker, you're 100 percent right.

People who commit this crime don't do it once, whether they're a priest, a coach, a doctor. It happens all the time. I've represented them. I've prosecuted them. And I know Wendy is familiar with their history too. They don't do it just once or twice. They do it all their lives. And if this guy is such -- if this guy is guilty, there are droves, as she says, droves of victims out there. And a lot of them should or would be coming forward.

And if they're not coming forward, there's something inherently wrong with whether or not he should be charged.

BEGALA: Well, Mickey, let me ask you.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Let me ask Mickey a question, though. I'm sorry, Wendy. I want to put Mickey on the spot, though.

As a defense attorney, you're not representing Mr. Jackson. Let's pretend you are.

SHERMAN: Yes.

BEGALA: Isn't this a bit of a setback, when Claire Reeves, who is the founder of Mothers Against Sexual Abuse, I think speaks for most people with common sense, when she says: "I don't know of any other 45-year-old man who is not a child molester who likes to share his bed with children who are not his. I consider that a huge red flag."

Isn't that a bit of a drawback for his defense lawyers, that he's advertising he likes to sleep with children?

(CROSSTALK)

SHERMAN: I know you're going to think I'm being creative and inventive here, but I got to tell you, that's almost a defense here. Michael Jackson is strange. He is weird. He has these habits which he has worn on his sleeve, to his detriment, for years.

So, for you or I to do that, of course it is odd and would probably be criminal.

BEGALA: Rules don't apply to Michael Jackson?

(CROSSTALK)

SHERMAN: For Michael Jackson, this is him.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Mickey, wait.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Hold. Hold on. Wait. No, let me just -- hold on.

There's weird and then there's something beyond weird. I want to read you a quote from Cher, who I think knows something about weird. Here's what Cher said about Michael Jackson. This is a quote: "I don't really care what he does to his face." Understandable she wouldn't. "He could just erase it, as far as I'm concerned. I don't like him anymore. And it's because of his children. I cannot imagine putting my children through what he put his children through. I saw the recent documentary on him, and I thought, this guy is nuts. He shouldn't have these children."

Now, when Cher thinks you're an unfit parent, not good.

(LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE)

SHERMAN: Yes, but where does Rosie stand on this, Tucker?

MURPHY: It's not just Cher.

SHERMAN: Where does Rosie and Oprah -- we have got to get a consensus here. No one is saying he's not strange. No one is saying he's not nuts. The question, is he a criminal? That's the deal here.

MURPHY: You know, look, look, look, can we talk about the fact of these weird characteristics as not being some kind of generic weirdness? But things we know about pedophiles -- and the studies are out there that tell us this -- are, they're narcissistic. They're naive. They're immature. They are self-centered. They spend very little time with peers of their own age. And they spend gobs of time with children, especially prepubescent boys.

Hello, Mickey Sherman?

SHERMAN: That's fine. Those are great profiles, but let's talk about this case.

MURPHY: That's not weird. That's a pedophile, period.

BEGALA: Wendy, let me press that point, though. That is a generalization, though. Doesn't the prosecutor at some point have to prove rape, child molestation?

MURPHY: Absolutely.

BEGALA: Not just -- not just weirdness. Well, where are facts?

MURPHY: Look, Paul, I am not...

BEGALA: Where's the case?

MURPHY: I don't care what he looks like. I don't care if he's black, white, gay, straight, female, male or some combination of all of the above. That's not what I'm judging him on. No one should judge him on that. But we should judge him on the testimony of the child. And we haven't heard from that child yet.

(CROSSTALK)

MURPHY: And we're talking about how weak the case is. That child deserves to be heard in a court of law and to have his demeanor and his credibility judged by unbiased people who don't dislike Michael Jackson for all the wrong reasons...

SHERMAN: Wendy, there's nobody -- nobody is arguing about that. We're just saying...

MURPHY: ... and who won't disbelieve the child for all the wrong reasons.

SHERMAN: We're saying, by the same token, we shouldn't say that Michael Jackson is guilty yet. We should say, let's see what shakes out in court and let's see if there's any more other victims coming out of the woodwork.

MURPHY: Yes, but I'm saying that, look

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: All right. I'm sorry, Wendy, I'm just going to have to cut you off there.

We're just going to take a quick commercial break. And we'll being be back momentarily.

When our guests return, we'll put them in "Rapid Fire." We'll try this one on for size. Will Democrats support Michael Jackson, one of their biggest fund raisers?

And coming up in Wolf Blitzer's headlines, the search for the missing student is -- he will give you an update on that.

We'll be right back.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Time now for "Rapid Fire," where our questions come with machine gun-like rapidity. We're talking about the case against singer and renowned Democratic fund raiser Michael Jackson.

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: If there is a case.

In the CROSSFIRE, former prosecutor Wendy Murphy and defense attorney Mickey Sherman.

BEGALA: Wendy, I've got to ask you, if he goes to jail, does he lose the nose? Apparently, it's a prosthetic nose. Does that come off if he goes to jail?

MURPHY: I don't know. I've never heard of a person having to remove their prosthetic device as a punishment. I think, actually, he'll probably be able to keep it. I don't know. I haven't heard of such a case before.

CARLSON: Well, the nose question remains open, then.

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: Mickey, Michael Jackson, as you know, not only a great singer, but a major Democratic fund raiser. Should this go to trial, do you expect say, Terry McAuliffe, head of the party, to appear as a character witness on Michael Jackson's behalf?

SHERMAN: No. And, you know, when I think Michael Jackson, I somehow don't think Democratic fund raiser at the same time. I think that the politicians will be running as fast as they can away from him, a la Cher.

CARLSON: Party's over. That's another casualty. I'm sorry.

BEGALA: Wendy, I will grant you that Mark Geragos is as good as they get, but he was in court just yesterday at a hearing defending accused murderer Scott Peterson. Now, today, he's working for Michael Jackson. Is he stretched too thin?

SHERMAN: No, you know, that's what good lawyers do.

MURPHY: Mickey...

SHERMAN: I always use the example not of people like me or Mark Geragos or Johnnie Cochran, but public defenders around the country, people who get paid very little to do a lot. They represent major murder cases and rape cases and kidnapping cases two, three, four, or five at a time routinely. It's just the nature of the business. It doesn't mean they're going to be bad at one.

MURPHY: You know, I wouldn't describe...

CARLSON: Wendy...

MURPHY: I...

CARLSON: Let me just ask you. Another nature of the business is to play the race card in cases like this. Do you think Geragos will?

MURPHY: You know, look, most defense attorneys will play the race card from bottom of the deck, if they can. And, by the bottom of the deck, I mean it really doesn't have anything to do with the case, but they do it anyway, because it gets them some bang for the buck.

I think it's unacceptable, un-American. I think it's outrageous.

(BELL RINGING)

MURPHY: It should be unethical to play the race card where it doesn't belong. And it doesn't belong in Michael Jackson's case.

BEGALA: Wendy Murphy, Mickey Sherman, thank you both very much.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Two of the best in the business. This case and this debate will go on. Thank you again for your time.

Just ahead, a post-Thanksgiving conundrum: When is a turkey not a turkey?

The answer when CROSSFIRE comes back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

A thanksgiving turkey in more ways than one. It was the highlight of the holiday, President Bush's hush-hush trip to visit the troops in Baghdad, complete with pictures of food fit for a king. Well, it turns out the turkey Mr. Bush grabbed was not for eating. "The Washington Post" reports it was a real turkey, but it was a centerpiece just for show. What the soldiers actually got was steamed turkey and stuffing from the cafeteria line, all of it, by the way, cooked by the fine folks at Halliburton.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: It turns out the president never did serve that turkey to the troops. But he did serve a lot of baloney to the American people.

CARLSON: Well, as...

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

CARLSON: Well, as someone who has eaten quite a few centerpieces in my time, I am not one to cast stones.

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: I would say, the whole trip was for show. Sometimes, show is the whole point. The statement, the symbolism of the president going into one of the most dangerous places in the world to show support for the troops, that's the essence of the trip. That's why

(CROSSTALK)

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: I think that's a very good -- that's a very good point.

But reality matters, too. Thank God he had perfect security while he was there. But our soldiers don't. There's a new story in the papers today... CARLSON: He didn't have perfect security

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: ... that our men and women there don't even have enough body armor, body vests to protect themselves.

CARLSON: Paul, Paul, Paul, Paul...

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: He owes our soldiers better protection than he's giving them, yes, he does.

CARLSON: Actually, he didn't have perfect security when he was there. There was real risk in there. Ask anybody who has tried to fly into Baghdad Airport, even the president of the United States. And it's the physical risk and the physical courage it implies that makes this one of the greatest statements of his whole presidency.

(APPLAUSE)

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: So why does he have to sully it by misleading, for example, about this nonsense that somehow...

CARLSON: It's a stupid turkey. Who cares?

BEGALA: He's telling us this totally false story. The White House tells us this false story that British Airways saw his plane and radioed in. And it was all fiction. He just can't tell the truth about anything.

CARLSON: You know, if you're against the war, argue against the war

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: ... turkey.

BEGALA: I'm just arguing against lying.

From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.

Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE.

"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" follows us.

We will see you tomorrow. Good night.

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