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CNN Crossfire
Interview With Senator John Edwards; Interview With Senator John Kerry; Interview With Congressman Dick Gephardt
Aired December 10, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: three -- count them -- three presidential candidates.
REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D-MO), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have the best chance to beat George Bush.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: People want constructive discussion about our nation. And that's what I'm trying to give them.
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Because the election is not about politicians. The election is about the voters.
ANNOUNCER: We're on the road and in the candidates' faces -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the CNN Election Express in Manchester, New Hampshire, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
The CNN Election Express has careened into Manchester, New Hampshire. We are at the center of the political universe right now. Today, you should know we're setting an all-time record for the number of presidential candidates we can cram into one edition of CROSSFIRE.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: We're pretty aggressive.
But it's easy, because this time of year, you're more likely to find a presidential candidate on a street corner than Santa. This morning, in fact, we bumped into Senator and presidential candidate John Edwards in a restaurant. As he walked with us to CNN Election Express, our bus, he talked about last night's Democratic debate.
Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CARLSON: What did you think of Koppel's questions last night?
EDWARDS: A little process-oriented, probably not enough kind of questions that I'm getting in town hall meetings.
CARLSON: Kind of nasty, didn't you think, some of them?
EDWARDS: Some of them were nasty. That wasn't the problem, though. The big problem was not enough focus on the issues that people are concerned about.
CARLSON: Yes.
BEGALA: So what are they asking you at town hall meetings that the press is not asking you about?
EDWARDS: Jobs, health care, education, Iraq. We did talk about Iraq last night.
CARLSON: A lot.
EDWARDS: But these domestic issues, we talked about very little.
BEGALA: So, like, what are they looking for in health care? Are they suspicious of the Medicare bill?
EDWARDS: Oh, yes, very suspicious of it. There are -- be careful.
BEGALA: Thank you.
EDWARDS: Yes, they're very suspicious about it, because they see the money going to HMOs. They see the lack of any cost controls on prescription drugs. They're very suspicious about it.
BEGALA: Is that something you can make a general issue with Mr. Bush, because he's going to say, look, I promised it and I delivered it.
EDWARDS: I think we can make an issue of it. How potent an issue it is probably depends on what happens between now and then, how much people understand
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: What about flipping it around and going after Bush as a big spender? Does that work for you?
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: No, really. No, I mean, he's taking hits from the right. And I've seen some Democrats make that point.
EDWARDS: He is. No, you're right. You're right. That's true, particularly not bringing down the cost of prescription drugs.
CARLSON: Right.
EDWARDS: Yes, I that's correct. You're right about that.
BEGALA: Well, yes, that's, to me, the key word, cost.
Let's get you on the bus here.
EDWARDS: Oh, cool bus.
BEGALA: Senator Edwards, welcome to the CNN Election Express. We'll set you up back here. We can do the whole show, we can run the whole network, actually, from this bus.
EDWARDS: Is that true?
CARLSON: We can invade Canada on this thing. Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
EDWARDS: You guys could do some major damage.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: We'll put you back here in the interview nook, we've decided it's going to be called.
CARLSON: Our noble studio.
BEGALA: You are our first interview on the bus.
EDWARDS: Is that true?
BEGALA: Yes. So thank you.
CARLSON: Thanks for joining us.
EDWARDS: Sure.
CARLSON: Now, Senator Edwards, I've been struck by how much you -- and not just you -- have talked about your background, growing up working class. And a lot of other candidates on the Democratic side have talked about where they come from.
Howard Dean has not talked at all about where he comes from. In fact, his background is, if anything, more affluent than George W. Bush's. And yet he's risen to the top. I wonder if that's a lesson about how biography is not sellable, really.
EDWARDS: I don't think so.
I think that what biography is relevant to is your credibility when you talk about what you want to do for the country, whether it's health care, education, tax cuts for the middle class, which is actually a place that I strongly disagree with Howard Dean. And I think my background and growing up in a working middle-class family gives me a lot of credibility on those issues.
BEGALA: Do you believe, for example, that Governor Dean's prior support for cuts in Medicare is because he came from Park Avenue and grew up in a privileged home?
EDWARDS: No. No, I don't.
I think that he comes from a different background than I come from, a different background than some of the other candidates come from. And I think, because of that, when he talks about raising taxes on the middle class, which he does talk about and which he does support, I think I have a better understanding of what that means in people's lives. I mean, $1,000, $2,000 in a family that is making $30,000 or $40,000 a year is an enormous amount of money. It pays a lots of bills. It makes a lot of house payments and car payments.
And I think it is important for us as Democrats to recognize that.
BEGALA: Well, so, why are we as a party losing those folks, right? You were born in Robbins, South Carolina, grew up in North Carolina.
EDWARDS: North Carolina. Robbins, North Carolina.
BEGALA: North Carolina. Forgive me.
EDWARDS: I was born in South Carolina and grew up in Robbins, North Carolina.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Thanks. All right. Got a bit confused there.
But we're losing those folks. You and I are part of a hearty, but endangered species.
EDWARDS: Yes.
BEGALA: Southern White House Democrats. Why?
EDWARDS: We can get them. We can get them.
But to get them, No. 1, we have to have a candidate who they feel a personal connection to. They have to believe that our candidate, the person who is leading our ticket, understands their lives at a gut level. And then we get to the policy arguments, education, health care, those things.
But I think the starting place, for us to have credibility and for them to listen to what we have to say, is for them to feel like they have a personal connection with our candidate. I mean, a perfect example of that is Bill Clinton. Whatever the Republicans think of Bill Clinton, he -- voters in that group that you just described, a lot of them felt like he understood them, he came from them, and he had a personal connection with them.
CARLSON: Now, Senator, you, last night, along with seven others, indicated you didn't think Howard Dean could beat George W. Bush in a general election. But you didn't explain why. Why specifically can't he beat Bush?
EDWARDS: I think this is a more complicated question than the way the question was asked.
I think there are conditions in which any Democratic candidate can beat George Bush, depending on what happens between now and the election. That's not where we are today. Where we are today is, I believe somebody like me, who can compete everywhere in America, not just geographically, because I think that oversimplifies it -- I think, for example, in these key Southern states, we have to be able to compete not just in the urban areas, but also in the rural areas, small towns, small communities.
We don't win statewide elections in Southern states unless we have a candidate who can compete in those areas. History has proven that. It's why Jim Hunt was elected governor four times in North Carolina. It's why our present governor comes from that kind of background. We Democrats have to be able to compete in those parts of the country. And not only that. It changes the underlying structure of the race if we have a candidate who can do that, because then George Bush can't spend all of his time and all of his money concentrating in places like
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, everyone -- that makes complete sense and everyone says it. But why can't Howard Dean win in the South, apart from the fact he doesn't have a Southern accent? What specifically about Dean will prevent him from winning in states like yours?
EDWARDS: I would rather say to the positive for why I can win.
CARLSON: But, at this point, all things remaining equal, he becomes the nominee. So why shouldn't -- what's wrong with Howard Dean?
EDWARDS: But he's not going to be the nominee. He's not going to be the nominee, because you guys are spending every day focused on this election. Voters are just now starting to pay attention.
And what will happen is what's always happened in these multi- candidate races. There's going to be huge changes between now and the New Hampshire primary, the Iowa caucuses, the South Carolina primary. Voters are going to start to focus on who their candidate should be. And they're going to care about a lot of things. And one of the things is what we just talked about, who, in fact, can compete with George Bush everywhere, who will be the best candidate for the Democratic Party.
BEGALA: Well, let me ask you about an issue that you're raising today, big story in the paper -- two stories. First, the Bush administration has said that our allies in Russia and France and Germany can't compete for contracts in Iraq. They say it's because of our national security interests.
Second, the Halliburton company, it turns out, according to "The New York Times," is charging we, the taxpayers, twice as much for gasoline in Iraq.
EDWARDS: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Now, is this an issue you're going to take to President Bush in the campaign?
EDWARDS: Absolutely. Absolutely. About 70 companies have gotten contracts in Iraq, totaling up to close to $8 billion. And, amazingly enough, those companies, their executives, have contributed mostly -- the most to one politician, one candidate, George W. Bush.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, is that a quid pro quo, though?
EDWARDS: There's no way for me to know that.
What I do know is, it looks terrible. It looks terrible to the American people, which is why we have to change the rules that apply. We shouldn't allow people who are getting these big contracts with the government to make political contributions, I believe, within a year on either side of the contract being bid.
I mean, we've got to change this environment, because what -- the American people hear this story about what's happening with Halliburton. They know about the no-bid contract with Halliburton. And their reaction, understandably, is, there's something wrong with this. This smells bad. And it affects the integrity of -- the integrity of their government.
CARLSON: Senator Edwards, we're almost out of time. One final question.
Senator Kerry, last night during the debate, said he would not bring not simply the U.N. into Iraq, but also the Dalai Lama. Would you?
(LAUGHTER)
EDWARDS: I was a little struck by the Dalai Lama comment.
CARLSON: Are you anti-Dalai Lama?
(LAUGHTER)
EDWARDS: I'm not.
CARLSON: Stake out a position on the Dalai Lama, would you?
EDWARDS: I promise you, I'm not anti-Dalai Lama.
(LAUGHTER)
EDWARDS: I was a little struck by the Dalai Lama suggestion. I'm glad you were, too.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Thank you.
Senator John Edwards of North Carolina, you didn't answer the question except by defaulting.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: We appreciate it. Thanks for coming on the bus.
EDWARDS: Thanks, Tucker. Nice to see you.
BEGALA: Thanks, Senator.
EDWARDS: Nice to see you, Paul.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BEGALA: Little-known fact: John Edwards actually once caddied for the Dalai Lama.
Well, just ahead, as CROSSFIRE rolls on from New Hampshire: Debates are often kind of ponderous affairs. But, after the debate, politicians and their handlers sometimes actually say what's on their minds. Tucker and I were in the spin room after last night's debate here in New Hampshire. We spoke with John Kerry, Dick Gephardt and Howard Dean's campaign manager, Joe Trippi. I pretty much begged them to take the gloves off. You'll hear what they had to say in response next.
And then later: Former New Hampshire Governor and current John Kerry campaign chairwoman Jeanne Shaheen steps into the CROSSFIRE to share her take on the campaign.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
We have come to sunny downtown Manchester, New Hampshire, with our campaign bus right behind us.
Well, in what seems like the longest-running series on television, the nine Democratic presidential candidates held yet another debate last night. After such events, the candidates and the press all gather in what is called the spin room to ask questions, boast, and swap restaurant reviews.
Last night, we took CROSSFIRE into the spin room, where, in quick succession, we bumped into Howard Dean's campaign manager, Joe Trippi, as well as presidential candidates Dick Gephardt and John Kerry.
Here's what it looked like. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEGALA: My first question is, why didn't you hit Howard Dean? You're 30 points behind him. You're in your own backyard.
KERRY: Now, don't you do that. God almighty, these numbers. I'm not 30 points behind.
BEGALA: Well, let's say you're 10. Why didn't you hit him? He wants your job. He wants the job you want.
KERRY: Because I...
BEGALA: There are principled differences between the two of you.
KERRY: Because I think people want to know positively what I want to do for the country. And I think people want to hear my vision for how I can show leadership in the nation. And I don't think they just want rat-a-tat-tat. I people want a constructive discussion about our nation. And that's what I'm trying to give them.
CARLSON: Can you give us the crisp explanation of the key differences between you and Governor Dean on Iraq?
KERRY: Yes.
I think that, on Iraq, at this point, we're in relatively close agreement, though I believe what we have to do is get a U.N. special representative in there in place of Paul Bremer, and that we need to have a separate coalition for the security component under U.S. control. But you can't achieve that unless you get either the U.N. or NATO to accept the larger reconstruction.
The main difference between the governor and me, frankly, on domestic policy is on taxes. I don't want to raise taxes. The governor wants to raise taxes on the middle class. I think that's an enormous mistake for our economy. And I think it's unfair to middle- class people, who don't have the problem of having too much money and not spending it.
CARLSON: Well, there you go. Why didn't you say that?
(CROSSTALK)
KERRY: Because we never talked -- we never got to the economy. We spent the whole time on polls.
Goodbye.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEGALA: You and Governor Dean had a disagreement in 1995. You were helping President Clinton fight off cuts in Medicare. He endorsed Republican cuts in Medicare. I don't have a favorite in this, but that's a legitimate thing to say right to his face. Why not do it that way, instead of running ads?
GEPHARDT: Well, we've said it. We've said it in other debates. We'll say it in debates in the future. But the format didn't lend itself to that kind of dialogue tonight. But we'll get at it. We'll get it done. We'll get those disagreements out. That's what elections are about, disagreements.
BEGALA: That's why I love them.
(CROSSTALK)
GEPHARDT: But that's why we do this.
CARLSON: You talked and the other candidates talked for probably an hour just on Iraq. I would be interested to get your take on one specific question. It was never brought up tonight. Should Iraq be allowed to become an Islamic republic? It seems a pretty basic question. Nobody has addressed it.
GEPHARDT: I think, ultimately, the Iraqis have to figure that out.
CARLSON: So, yes, it should be allowed if the Iraqis want an Iranian-style Islamic republic?
GEPHARDT: We -- we believe in democracy. We are advocating democracy. Now we've got to get to democracy. Democracy means that, ultimately, the people of Iraq have to make that decision. We can't make it for them.
CARLSON: So, if they decide to become a radical theocracy that hates the United States, we have to let them?
GEPHARDT: Well, you're jumping way ahead.
CARLSON: No, I'm just -- it's a simple, straightforward question.
GEPHARDT: Well, it may not. It may be a theocracy sorts. It may be different than Iran. It may be different than other countries in the world.
I'm seeing good signs out of the Shias. I think they want to build a country that has a secular base. They do want to have the ability to do what they haven't been able to do under Saddam Hussein. And that's live their lives. I mean, this guy was killing them. He was gassing them. He was torturing them. They deserve a chance to live a peaceful life in their own country. And I think, if we give them time and we help this thing go forward, we can have a very diverse Iraq, with Kurds and Sunnis and Shias who are living together in peace in a single country. That's the goal.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: Dick Gephardt, before we let you go, did you know, if you type in your signature phrase attacking George W. Bush, "miserable failure," into the Google search engine, you know what comes up? President Bush's official biography from the White House Web site.
CARLSON: How long did it take you to program that?
(LAUGHTER)
GEPHARDT: No, no, no, I didn't do it. It's just -- it's the truth.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Amen.
Well, congratulations.
GEPHARDT: Thanks so much. Appreciate it.
BEGALA: Thanks again. Great to see you again.
(CROSSTALK)
GEPHARDT: Good to see you. Bye-bye. Thanks.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEGALA: Joe Trippi, campaign manager for Howard Dean.
First off, I'm not objective. Let me tell you my biased opinion. I think Dean did quite a good job. I think he did his job, which is -- by me. Your guys is 30 points ahead in this state, having run a pretty unconventional campaign. But I was struck at how unconventional your -- his opponents were. None of your opponents attacked Governor Dean, not in a personal way, which I don't like. But they didn't even attack him on the issues. Were you surprised?
JOE TRIPPI, DEAN CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Yes and no.
So far, every time someone has attacked us, we've gotten stronger. We've grown stronger. And we've had more people sign up and contribute on the net. Today, we're having an amazing day. I mean, it's just been amazing how many hits we've got on our Web site. More people are signing up than ever before.
And I don't know that it was a good day for us to -- I think maybe they decided not to hit us today. On the other hand, a 30-point lead, these guys have all -- I think one of the reasons we're here is because they've underestimated us from the beginning. And we have no intention at this point to make the mistake of underestimating any of them.
We're going to fight for every vote in Iowa, every vote in New Hampshire and every vote out there. We'll fight for it. We are. And this election is too important to lay back. We've got to take to Bush. And we're coming out fighting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CARLSON: Well, that was Joe Trippi, now the world's most famous political consultant.
John Kerry is trying to rally political support here in his backyard in New Hampshire.
Up next, we'll talk to someone who knows what it takes to do that, former Governor of New Hampshire Jeanne Shaheen.
And then next, right after the break, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on a series of military raids in Iraq aimed at former members of Saddam Hussein's Fedayeen. CNN was there as the arrests were made.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
BEGALA: Thank you, Wolf. You look mighty comfortable and warm in the studio.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: We look forward to your report at the top of the hour.
Well, despite trailing Howard Dean here in New Hampshire in the latest polls by anywhere from 14 to more than 20 points, Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts refused to attack the Vermont governor in last night's debate. But today, Senator Kerry let loose, sarcastically asking which of Governor Dean's positions on Iraq Al Gore is endorsing.
Joining us in the CROSSFIRE is the Kerry campaign's national chairwoman, former New Hampshire governor, Democrat Jeanne Shaheen.
BEGALA: Good to see you, Governor.
JEANNE SHAHEEN (D), FORMER GOVERNOR OF NEW HAMPSHIRE: Nice to be here.
CARLSON: Governor Shaheen, as Senator Kerry's most prominent endorser, how did you feel yesterday when he announced to the world that endorsements make no difference at all, just don't matter?
SHAHEEN: Well, I think the important thing about endorsements is whether you're willing to work. And I'm here working for John Kerry, because I think he's the best person to be president. And I think he's glad to have me.
CARLSON: I think he is. BEGALA: And where is Al Gore? He went to Iowa. Do you think it hurts Dean? Or is it maybe just a sign that he's so far ahead that the vice president didn't come here, where he's very popular?
SHAHEEN: You know, I worked very hard for Al Gore in 2000 to get him -- to win the New Hampshire primary and to help get him elected. But he decided not to run. And I looked around at who I thought the best candidate to be president was. And I chose John Kerry, because he's got...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but did Gore call you? You helped Al Gore...
SHAHEEN: No, he didn't call me.
BEGALA: ... come from behind Bill Bradley to beat him here. But he didn't call you?
SHAHEEN: Listen, if he didn't call Joe Lieberman, he wasn't going to call me.
CARLSON: Governor Shaheen, a couple of months ago, John Kerry was caught on camera so frustrated at Howard Dean, he muttered, "Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean." Do you think he runs the risk of becoming obsessed with Howard Dean?
SHAHEEN: No, I -- listen, I think he pointed out today that Howard Dean's position on Iraq was what John Kerry's and most of the candidates' in this race were at that time that they voted on the resolution on Iraq.
But what John Kerry is doing is fighting for every vote in New Hampshire, talking about why he is the best person to be president, what he would do to help people deal with their health care issues, help to get this economy moving again, what he would do to make us energy-independent, what he wants to do to bring us back to a foreign policy that makes sense.
That's what voters are concerned about. They want to know who's the best person to be president. And I think, when they give John Kerry a second look, that they're going to decide that he's the best person to win the nomination, because he's the best person to stand up to George Bush.
CARLSON: Well, Governor, a few moments ago, on this broadcast, Senator Kerry accused Howard Dean of wanting to raise taxes on the middle class. Are you worried that your candidate, John Kerry, is actually now making what will become ads for the Republican, George Bush, if Dean is the nominee?
SHAHEEN: No.
Look, the candidates in the primary are going to point out their differences on issues. That's one very important difference to people in the middle class, is that John Kerry's position is that there are tax cuts that are important to middle-class families, that we do need a child care credit for middle-class families, that we should eliminate the marriage penalty, so that people who are married don't get penalized for that.
And I think that's a position that most people in this state and in this country support.
CARLSON: Governor Jeanne Shaheen, a woman who knows a lot about winning elections in New Hampshire, thank you for joining us in a frigid CROSSFIRE.
SHAHEEN: Thank you. Nice to be here.
CARLSON: Thanks, Governor.
SHAHEEN: That's right. Thank you.
CARLSON: Thank you. We appreciate it.
Up next: Yet another presidential candidate joins us on the bus. It's getting kind of crowded, but it's worth it in this case. We'll show you who it is.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Well, this is almost the end of our jaunt in sunny New Hampshire. Tomorrow, you'll be able to see the full extent of our semi-exclusive interview with presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich of Ohio. And it is worth the wait.
BEGALA: I want to come back to one thing Governor Shaheen said.
When you talk to the Lieberman campaign, the Kerry campaign, they're saying that there's a backlash from Al Gore endorsing Governor Dean that is actually getting them more volunteers and more money.
CARLSON: And that may be true. On the other hand, what else are they going to say?
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: "It is over! Boy, Howard Dean is going to be the nominee. Now we're bowing out!"
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: I mean, it is sort of the only talking point left.
BEGALA: Well, that may well be. That's why you got to use what you got.
CARLSON: You got to use it.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, from the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson in New Hampshire.
Join us again tomorrow for more CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
Have a great night.
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Senator John Kerry; Interview With Congressman Dick Gephardt>
Aired December 10, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: three -- count them -- three presidential candidates.
REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D-MO), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have the best chance to beat George Bush.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: People want constructive discussion about our nation. And that's what I'm trying to give them.
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Because the election is not about politicians. The election is about the voters.
ANNOUNCER: We're on the road and in the candidates' faces -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the CNN Election Express in Manchester, New Hampshire, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
The CNN Election Express has careened into Manchester, New Hampshire. We are at the center of the political universe right now. Today, you should know we're setting an all-time record for the number of presidential candidates we can cram into one edition of CROSSFIRE.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: We're pretty aggressive.
But it's easy, because this time of year, you're more likely to find a presidential candidate on a street corner than Santa. This morning, in fact, we bumped into Senator and presidential candidate John Edwards in a restaurant. As he walked with us to CNN Election Express, our bus, he talked about last night's Democratic debate.
Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CARLSON: What did you think of Koppel's questions last night?
EDWARDS: A little process-oriented, probably not enough kind of questions that I'm getting in town hall meetings.
CARLSON: Kind of nasty, didn't you think, some of them?
EDWARDS: Some of them were nasty. That wasn't the problem, though. The big problem was not enough focus on the issues that people are concerned about.
CARLSON: Yes.
BEGALA: So what are they asking you at town hall meetings that the press is not asking you about?
EDWARDS: Jobs, health care, education, Iraq. We did talk about Iraq last night.
CARLSON: A lot.
EDWARDS: But these domestic issues, we talked about very little.
BEGALA: So, like, what are they looking for in health care? Are they suspicious of the Medicare bill?
EDWARDS: Oh, yes, very suspicious of it. There are -- be careful.
BEGALA: Thank you.
EDWARDS: Yes, they're very suspicious about it, because they see the money going to HMOs. They see the lack of any cost controls on prescription drugs. They're very suspicious about it.
BEGALA: Is that something you can make a general issue with Mr. Bush, because he's going to say, look, I promised it and I delivered it.
EDWARDS: I think we can make an issue of it. How potent an issue it is probably depends on what happens between now and then, how much people understand
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: What about flipping it around and going after Bush as a big spender? Does that work for you?
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: No, really. No, I mean, he's taking hits from the right. And I've seen some Democrats make that point.
EDWARDS: He is. No, you're right. You're right. That's true, particularly not bringing down the cost of prescription drugs.
CARLSON: Right.
EDWARDS: Yes, I that's correct. You're right about that.
BEGALA: Well, yes, that's, to me, the key word, cost.
Let's get you on the bus here.
EDWARDS: Oh, cool bus.
BEGALA: Senator Edwards, welcome to the CNN Election Express. We'll set you up back here. We can do the whole show, we can run the whole network, actually, from this bus.
EDWARDS: Is that true?
CARLSON: We can invade Canada on this thing. Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
EDWARDS: You guys could do some major damage.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: We'll put you back here in the interview nook, we've decided it's going to be called.
CARLSON: Our noble studio.
BEGALA: You are our first interview on the bus.
EDWARDS: Is that true?
BEGALA: Yes. So thank you.
CARLSON: Thanks for joining us.
EDWARDS: Sure.
CARLSON: Now, Senator Edwards, I've been struck by how much you -- and not just you -- have talked about your background, growing up working class. And a lot of other candidates on the Democratic side have talked about where they come from.
Howard Dean has not talked at all about where he comes from. In fact, his background is, if anything, more affluent than George W. Bush's. And yet he's risen to the top. I wonder if that's a lesson about how biography is not sellable, really.
EDWARDS: I don't think so.
I think that what biography is relevant to is your credibility when you talk about what you want to do for the country, whether it's health care, education, tax cuts for the middle class, which is actually a place that I strongly disagree with Howard Dean. And I think my background and growing up in a working middle-class family gives me a lot of credibility on those issues.
BEGALA: Do you believe, for example, that Governor Dean's prior support for cuts in Medicare is because he came from Park Avenue and grew up in a privileged home?
EDWARDS: No. No, I don't.
I think that he comes from a different background than I come from, a different background than some of the other candidates come from. And I think, because of that, when he talks about raising taxes on the middle class, which he does talk about and which he does support, I think I have a better understanding of what that means in people's lives. I mean, $1,000, $2,000 in a family that is making $30,000 or $40,000 a year is an enormous amount of money. It pays a lots of bills. It makes a lot of house payments and car payments.
And I think it is important for us as Democrats to recognize that.
BEGALA: Well, so, why are we as a party losing those folks, right? You were born in Robbins, South Carolina, grew up in North Carolina.
EDWARDS: North Carolina. Robbins, North Carolina.
BEGALA: North Carolina. Forgive me.
EDWARDS: I was born in South Carolina and grew up in Robbins, North Carolina.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Thanks. All right. Got a bit confused there.
But we're losing those folks. You and I are part of a hearty, but endangered species.
EDWARDS: Yes.
BEGALA: Southern White House Democrats. Why?
EDWARDS: We can get them. We can get them.
But to get them, No. 1, we have to have a candidate who they feel a personal connection to. They have to believe that our candidate, the person who is leading our ticket, understands their lives at a gut level. And then we get to the policy arguments, education, health care, those things.
But I think the starting place, for us to have credibility and for them to listen to what we have to say, is for them to feel like they have a personal connection with our candidate. I mean, a perfect example of that is Bill Clinton. Whatever the Republicans think of Bill Clinton, he -- voters in that group that you just described, a lot of them felt like he understood them, he came from them, and he had a personal connection with them.
CARLSON: Now, Senator, you, last night, along with seven others, indicated you didn't think Howard Dean could beat George W. Bush in a general election. But you didn't explain why. Why specifically can't he beat Bush?
EDWARDS: I think this is a more complicated question than the way the question was asked.
I think there are conditions in which any Democratic candidate can beat George Bush, depending on what happens between now and the election. That's not where we are today. Where we are today is, I believe somebody like me, who can compete everywhere in America, not just geographically, because I think that oversimplifies it -- I think, for example, in these key Southern states, we have to be able to compete not just in the urban areas, but also in the rural areas, small towns, small communities.
We don't win statewide elections in Southern states unless we have a candidate who can compete in those areas. History has proven that. It's why Jim Hunt was elected governor four times in North Carolina. It's why our present governor comes from that kind of background. We Democrats have to be able to compete in those parts of the country. And not only that. It changes the underlying structure of the race if we have a candidate who can do that, because then George Bush can't spend all of his time and all of his money concentrating in places like
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, everyone -- that makes complete sense and everyone says it. But why can't Howard Dean win in the South, apart from the fact he doesn't have a Southern accent? What specifically about Dean will prevent him from winning in states like yours?
EDWARDS: I would rather say to the positive for why I can win.
CARLSON: But, at this point, all things remaining equal, he becomes the nominee. So why shouldn't -- what's wrong with Howard Dean?
EDWARDS: But he's not going to be the nominee. He's not going to be the nominee, because you guys are spending every day focused on this election. Voters are just now starting to pay attention.
And what will happen is what's always happened in these multi- candidate races. There's going to be huge changes between now and the New Hampshire primary, the Iowa caucuses, the South Carolina primary. Voters are going to start to focus on who their candidate should be. And they're going to care about a lot of things. And one of the things is what we just talked about, who, in fact, can compete with George Bush everywhere, who will be the best candidate for the Democratic Party.
BEGALA: Well, let me ask you about an issue that you're raising today, big story in the paper -- two stories. First, the Bush administration has said that our allies in Russia and France and Germany can't compete for contracts in Iraq. They say it's because of our national security interests.
Second, the Halliburton company, it turns out, according to "The New York Times," is charging we, the taxpayers, twice as much for gasoline in Iraq.
EDWARDS: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Now, is this an issue you're going to take to President Bush in the campaign?
EDWARDS: Absolutely. Absolutely. About 70 companies have gotten contracts in Iraq, totaling up to close to $8 billion. And, amazingly enough, those companies, their executives, have contributed mostly -- the most to one politician, one candidate, George W. Bush.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, is that a quid pro quo, though?
EDWARDS: There's no way for me to know that.
What I do know is, it looks terrible. It looks terrible to the American people, which is why we have to change the rules that apply. We shouldn't allow people who are getting these big contracts with the government to make political contributions, I believe, within a year on either side of the contract being bid.
I mean, we've got to change this environment, because what -- the American people hear this story about what's happening with Halliburton. They know about the no-bid contract with Halliburton. And their reaction, understandably, is, there's something wrong with this. This smells bad. And it affects the integrity of -- the integrity of their government.
CARLSON: Senator Edwards, we're almost out of time. One final question.
Senator Kerry, last night during the debate, said he would not bring not simply the U.N. into Iraq, but also the Dalai Lama. Would you?
(LAUGHTER)
EDWARDS: I was a little struck by the Dalai Lama comment.
CARLSON: Are you anti-Dalai Lama?
(LAUGHTER)
EDWARDS: I'm not.
CARLSON: Stake out a position on the Dalai Lama, would you?
EDWARDS: I promise you, I'm not anti-Dalai Lama.
(LAUGHTER)
EDWARDS: I was a little struck by the Dalai Lama suggestion. I'm glad you were, too.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Thank you.
Senator John Edwards of North Carolina, you didn't answer the question except by defaulting.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: We appreciate it. Thanks for coming on the bus.
EDWARDS: Thanks, Tucker. Nice to see you.
BEGALA: Thanks, Senator.
EDWARDS: Nice to see you, Paul.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BEGALA: Little-known fact: John Edwards actually once caddied for the Dalai Lama.
Well, just ahead, as CROSSFIRE rolls on from New Hampshire: Debates are often kind of ponderous affairs. But, after the debate, politicians and their handlers sometimes actually say what's on their minds. Tucker and I were in the spin room after last night's debate here in New Hampshire. We spoke with John Kerry, Dick Gephardt and Howard Dean's campaign manager, Joe Trippi. I pretty much begged them to take the gloves off. You'll hear what they had to say in response next.
And then later: Former New Hampshire Governor and current John Kerry campaign chairwoman Jeanne Shaheen steps into the CROSSFIRE to share her take on the campaign.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
We have come to sunny downtown Manchester, New Hampshire, with our campaign bus right behind us.
Well, in what seems like the longest-running series on television, the nine Democratic presidential candidates held yet another debate last night. After such events, the candidates and the press all gather in what is called the spin room to ask questions, boast, and swap restaurant reviews.
Last night, we took CROSSFIRE into the spin room, where, in quick succession, we bumped into Howard Dean's campaign manager, Joe Trippi, as well as presidential candidates Dick Gephardt and John Kerry.
Here's what it looked like. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEGALA: My first question is, why didn't you hit Howard Dean? You're 30 points behind him. You're in your own backyard.
KERRY: Now, don't you do that. God almighty, these numbers. I'm not 30 points behind.
BEGALA: Well, let's say you're 10. Why didn't you hit him? He wants your job. He wants the job you want.
KERRY: Because I...
BEGALA: There are principled differences between the two of you.
KERRY: Because I think people want to know positively what I want to do for the country. And I think people want to hear my vision for how I can show leadership in the nation. And I don't think they just want rat-a-tat-tat. I people want a constructive discussion about our nation. And that's what I'm trying to give them.
CARLSON: Can you give us the crisp explanation of the key differences between you and Governor Dean on Iraq?
KERRY: Yes.
I think that, on Iraq, at this point, we're in relatively close agreement, though I believe what we have to do is get a U.N. special representative in there in place of Paul Bremer, and that we need to have a separate coalition for the security component under U.S. control. But you can't achieve that unless you get either the U.N. or NATO to accept the larger reconstruction.
The main difference between the governor and me, frankly, on domestic policy is on taxes. I don't want to raise taxes. The governor wants to raise taxes on the middle class. I think that's an enormous mistake for our economy. And I think it's unfair to middle- class people, who don't have the problem of having too much money and not spending it.
CARLSON: Well, there you go. Why didn't you say that?
(CROSSTALK)
KERRY: Because we never talked -- we never got to the economy. We spent the whole time on polls.
Goodbye.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEGALA: You and Governor Dean had a disagreement in 1995. You were helping President Clinton fight off cuts in Medicare. He endorsed Republican cuts in Medicare. I don't have a favorite in this, but that's a legitimate thing to say right to his face. Why not do it that way, instead of running ads?
GEPHARDT: Well, we've said it. We've said it in other debates. We'll say it in debates in the future. But the format didn't lend itself to that kind of dialogue tonight. But we'll get at it. We'll get it done. We'll get those disagreements out. That's what elections are about, disagreements.
BEGALA: That's why I love them.
(CROSSTALK)
GEPHARDT: But that's why we do this.
CARLSON: You talked and the other candidates talked for probably an hour just on Iraq. I would be interested to get your take on one specific question. It was never brought up tonight. Should Iraq be allowed to become an Islamic republic? It seems a pretty basic question. Nobody has addressed it.
GEPHARDT: I think, ultimately, the Iraqis have to figure that out.
CARLSON: So, yes, it should be allowed if the Iraqis want an Iranian-style Islamic republic?
GEPHARDT: We -- we believe in democracy. We are advocating democracy. Now we've got to get to democracy. Democracy means that, ultimately, the people of Iraq have to make that decision. We can't make it for them.
CARLSON: So, if they decide to become a radical theocracy that hates the United States, we have to let them?
GEPHARDT: Well, you're jumping way ahead.
CARLSON: No, I'm just -- it's a simple, straightforward question.
GEPHARDT: Well, it may not. It may be a theocracy sorts. It may be different than Iran. It may be different than other countries in the world.
I'm seeing good signs out of the Shias. I think they want to build a country that has a secular base. They do want to have the ability to do what they haven't been able to do under Saddam Hussein. And that's live their lives. I mean, this guy was killing them. He was gassing them. He was torturing them. They deserve a chance to live a peaceful life in their own country. And I think, if we give them time and we help this thing go forward, we can have a very diverse Iraq, with Kurds and Sunnis and Shias who are living together in peace in a single country. That's the goal.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: Dick Gephardt, before we let you go, did you know, if you type in your signature phrase attacking George W. Bush, "miserable failure," into the Google search engine, you know what comes up? President Bush's official biography from the White House Web site.
CARLSON: How long did it take you to program that?
(LAUGHTER)
GEPHARDT: No, no, no, I didn't do it. It's just -- it's the truth.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Amen.
Well, congratulations.
GEPHARDT: Thanks so much. Appreciate it.
BEGALA: Thanks again. Great to see you again.
(CROSSTALK)
GEPHARDT: Good to see you. Bye-bye. Thanks.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEGALA: Joe Trippi, campaign manager for Howard Dean.
First off, I'm not objective. Let me tell you my biased opinion. I think Dean did quite a good job. I think he did his job, which is -- by me. Your guys is 30 points ahead in this state, having run a pretty unconventional campaign. But I was struck at how unconventional your -- his opponents were. None of your opponents attacked Governor Dean, not in a personal way, which I don't like. But they didn't even attack him on the issues. Were you surprised?
JOE TRIPPI, DEAN CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Yes and no.
So far, every time someone has attacked us, we've gotten stronger. We've grown stronger. And we've had more people sign up and contribute on the net. Today, we're having an amazing day. I mean, it's just been amazing how many hits we've got on our Web site. More people are signing up than ever before.
And I don't know that it was a good day for us to -- I think maybe they decided not to hit us today. On the other hand, a 30-point lead, these guys have all -- I think one of the reasons we're here is because they've underestimated us from the beginning. And we have no intention at this point to make the mistake of underestimating any of them.
We're going to fight for every vote in Iowa, every vote in New Hampshire and every vote out there. We'll fight for it. We are. And this election is too important to lay back. We've got to take to Bush. And we're coming out fighting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CARLSON: Well, that was Joe Trippi, now the world's most famous political consultant.
John Kerry is trying to rally political support here in his backyard in New Hampshire.
Up next, we'll talk to someone who knows what it takes to do that, former Governor of New Hampshire Jeanne Shaheen.
And then next, right after the break, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on a series of military raids in Iraq aimed at former members of Saddam Hussein's Fedayeen. CNN was there as the arrests were made.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
BEGALA: Thank you, Wolf. You look mighty comfortable and warm in the studio.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: We look forward to your report at the top of the hour.
Well, despite trailing Howard Dean here in New Hampshire in the latest polls by anywhere from 14 to more than 20 points, Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts refused to attack the Vermont governor in last night's debate. But today, Senator Kerry let loose, sarcastically asking which of Governor Dean's positions on Iraq Al Gore is endorsing.
Joining us in the CROSSFIRE is the Kerry campaign's national chairwoman, former New Hampshire governor, Democrat Jeanne Shaheen.
BEGALA: Good to see you, Governor.
JEANNE SHAHEEN (D), FORMER GOVERNOR OF NEW HAMPSHIRE: Nice to be here.
CARLSON: Governor Shaheen, as Senator Kerry's most prominent endorser, how did you feel yesterday when he announced to the world that endorsements make no difference at all, just don't matter?
SHAHEEN: Well, I think the important thing about endorsements is whether you're willing to work. And I'm here working for John Kerry, because I think he's the best person to be president. And I think he's glad to have me.
CARLSON: I think he is. BEGALA: And where is Al Gore? He went to Iowa. Do you think it hurts Dean? Or is it maybe just a sign that he's so far ahead that the vice president didn't come here, where he's very popular?
SHAHEEN: You know, I worked very hard for Al Gore in 2000 to get him -- to win the New Hampshire primary and to help get him elected. But he decided not to run. And I looked around at who I thought the best candidate to be president was. And I chose John Kerry, because he's got...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but did Gore call you? You helped Al Gore...
SHAHEEN: No, he didn't call me.
BEGALA: ... come from behind Bill Bradley to beat him here. But he didn't call you?
SHAHEEN: Listen, if he didn't call Joe Lieberman, he wasn't going to call me.
CARLSON: Governor Shaheen, a couple of months ago, John Kerry was caught on camera so frustrated at Howard Dean, he muttered, "Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean." Do you think he runs the risk of becoming obsessed with Howard Dean?
SHAHEEN: No, I -- listen, I think he pointed out today that Howard Dean's position on Iraq was what John Kerry's and most of the candidates' in this race were at that time that they voted on the resolution on Iraq.
But what John Kerry is doing is fighting for every vote in New Hampshire, talking about why he is the best person to be president, what he would do to help people deal with their health care issues, help to get this economy moving again, what he would do to make us energy-independent, what he wants to do to bring us back to a foreign policy that makes sense.
That's what voters are concerned about. They want to know who's the best person to be president. And I think, when they give John Kerry a second look, that they're going to decide that he's the best person to win the nomination, because he's the best person to stand up to George Bush.
CARLSON: Well, Governor, a few moments ago, on this broadcast, Senator Kerry accused Howard Dean of wanting to raise taxes on the middle class. Are you worried that your candidate, John Kerry, is actually now making what will become ads for the Republican, George Bush, if Dean is the nominee?
SHAHEEN: No.
Look, the candidates in the primary are going to point out their differences on issues. That's one very important difference to people in the middle class, is that John Kerry's position is that there are tax cuts that are important to middle-class families, that we do need a child care credit for middle-class families, that we should eliminate the marriage penalty, so that people who are married don't get penalized for that.
And I think that's a position that most people in this state and in this country support.
CARLSON: Governor Jeanne Shaheen, a woman who knows a lot about winning elections in New Hampshire, thank you for joining us in a frigid CROSSFIRE.
SHAHEEN: Thank you. Nice to be here.
CARLSON: Thanks, Governor.
SHAHEEN: That's right. Thank you.
CARLSON: Thank you. We appreciate it.
Up next: Yet another presidential candidate joins us on the bus. It's getting kind of crowded, but it's worth it in this case. We'll show you who it is.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Well, this is almost the end of our jaunt in sunny New Hampshire. Tomorrow, you'll be able to see the full extent of our semi-exclusive interview with presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich of Ohio. And it is worth the wait.
BEGALA: I want to come back to one thing Governor Shaheen said.
When you talk to the Lieberman campaign, the Kerry campaign, they're saying that there's a backlash from Al Gore endorsing Governor Dean that is actually getting them more volunteers and more money.
CARLSON: And that may be true. On the other hand, what else are they going to say?
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: "It is over! Boy, Howard Dean is going to be the nominee. Now we're bowing out!"
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: I mean, it is sort of the only talking point left.
BEGALA: Well, that may well be. That's why you got to use what you got.
CARLSON: You got to use it.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, from the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson in New Hampshire.
Join us again tomorrow for more CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
Have a great night.
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Senator John Kerry; Interview With Congressman Dick Gephardt>
