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CNN Crossfire
Government Doing Enough to Fight Terrorism?
Aired December 22, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: Thanks to terrorism threats, getting over the river, through the woods, and past security is a lot harder.
TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: We cannot quit being America just because of these threats.
ANNOUNCER: Are you on alert? Is the government doing enough to keep us safe?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Bay Buchanan.
(APPLAUSE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
And a special welcome to today's guest host on the right, Bay Buchanan of the American Cause.
Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge says we should go about our business even though the country has gone on a code orange terror alert. So, we're going to start like always, with the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
(CROSSTALK)
BAY BUCHANAN, GUEST HOST: The Democratic primary never ceases to amuse.
On "INSIDE POLITICS" just now and yesterday's "This Week," General Clark said Howard Dean asked him to be his running mate. And that was when the two met last September, before Clark got into the race. Dean's camp says, no way; it never happened. Dean himself said the same thing today. I don't know who is telling the truth, but I do know one thing. And that is that Clark is the loser in this exchange.
Those who believe Dean now know Clark, or believe Clark to be a liar. And those that believe Clark wonder why a man who was once offered the No. 2 spot on the ticket by the front-runner would so offend the front-runner as to never get that offer again -- James.
(LAUGHTER)
J. CARVILLE: Well, maybe they ought to have Ken Starr come in and investigate.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
J. CARVILLE: Everybody recounting an event and a different thing. But it is an interesting thing. And I bet you they get asked about it in the next debate. And we're going to get a chance to see them go toe to toe at each other and have two different stories.
BUCHANAN: But, James, why didn't they just finesse it? They could have very easily said, well, they talked about it, but didn't ask him, or something like that.
J. CARVILLE: That's a good question. Maybe somebody will ask them, say, why didn't you just fake it...
(LAUGHTER)
J. CARVILLE: ... and just say, well, we talked about it, but it could have been interpreted two different ways?
(BELL RINGING)
J. CARVILLE: I don't know. But I want to watch the next debate to see what happens.
All right, there's a fancy word to describe the so-called news put out by the Bush administration, apocryphal. It's means something that is doubtful or not authentic or not genuine. "TIME" magazine has a great example. You know the story. When U.S. troops found Saddam Hussein in his spider hole, a soldier said, "Regards from President Bush."
A U.S. intelligence official tells "TIME," this story is suspected of being apocryphal. Even people who want to believe this administration can't. It's all about right-wing publicity, in other words, apocryphal.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
J. CARVILLE: Maybe the meeting between Clark and Dean was apocryphal.
(LAUGHTER)
BUCHANAN: The problem with your -- your little anecdote there is that the sergeant, an Army sergeant, told that story directly to the press, and the press ran with it. It wasn't the administration that put that piece out. They may have thought it was a very interesting little tidbit, but...
J. CARVILLE: But did they correct it? It's just like the administration didn't put out that they were told they would have all of these problems in Iraq, but they were told that by Mr. Warrick. And they didn't do anything to correct it. Of course, they didn't. And they knew it wasn't the case. It was the same thing with Air Force One being under attack on 9/11.
BUCHANAN: Oh, come on.
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: They can't be worried about all these -- the administration can't be worried about all these little details. But the press has some job here, some responsibility.
J. CARVILLE: Apocryphal.
(LAUGHTER)
BUCHANAN: Whatever.
(LAUGHTER)
J. CARVILLE: All right.
BUCHANAN: And "TIME" -- OK.
(BELL RINGING)
BUCHANAN: Next little one here.
"TIME" magazine's selection for person of the year, they are often off the wall. But this year, "TIME"'s editorial board got it right by selecting the American soldier.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: My sentiments precisely.
Part of the "TIME"'s explanation reads: "They swept across Iraq and conquered it in 21 days. They stand guard on streets potholed with skepticism and rancor. They caught Saddam Hussein. They are the face of America, its might and goodwill." "TIME"'s choice is one that I believe all of us, right, left, and center, can agree and should salute.
J. CARVILLE: I agree completely. I said the same thing yesterday morning on Tim Russert's "Meet the Press."
But I -- I would point out that our fighting men and women deserve better than to have a war that they start that they have no plan how to deal with the peace. (APPLAUSE)
J. CARVILLE: We would have served them better had they listened to people like Mr. Warrick, had they listened to people who talked about the problems they would have, because a report of the 3rd Infantry Division points out that, when they got to Baghdad, they had no idea what to do. That's not the way you should deal with people.
BUCHANAN: But, you know -- you know, whatever happened, this military really sat down there and studied it. I really have looked into what happened and how we captured Saddam Hussein. James, maybe you've done the same. And it's really the terrific hard work of the military, their intelligence, putting that system together.
(BELL RINGING)
BUCHANAN: They caught him. It was not luck.
J. CARVILLE: If you're just listening, look up at your screen. You're not going to believe what you're about to see. The New Orleans Saints added a real doozy to their long and illustrious history yesterday.
(LAUGHTER)
J. CARVILLE: They scored a 75-yard touchdown on the last play of the game, a never-say-die pass play that saw the ball in the air four times. Look at this. The impossible pulled the Saints within one point of Jacksonville.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back to McAllister. Still alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my God!
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He does, into the end zone for the touchdown!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
J. CARVILLE: All they needed to get to overtime was the extra point. Can you believe it? The kicker missed and the Saints lost. People in Boston talk about the curse of the Bambino. And Chicago Cub fans have the curse of the billy goat. But every New Orleans Saint fans know they pale in comparison to the curse of Marie Laveau. The voodoo queen has struck again.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: You know, James, what is amazing -- and I don't follow that team very well, but I -- very closely -- but I do know the kicker is an amazing kicker; 35 out of 35 this season, he's been successful; 130 out of the last 130, he's successful. What is this?
J. CARVILLE: Well, actually, 402 out of 404, 402 out of 405. He's now 402 out of 406.
It's very simple. This Boston-Chicago tiddlywinks little old curses they claim to have don't amount to anything. If you want a real curse, go to New Orleans, where they have voodoo, Marie Laveau. She's got something for you. This ain't no little billy goat, Bambino.
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: And with that, the holidays are here. And for some, the stress is even greater than usual.
Up next, handling a high-alert holiday. Does it make us any safer?
And later, Tim Russert comes up against some one-of-a-kind guests on his Sunday talk show.
Stay with us.
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to the live Washington audience, call 202-994-8CNN or e-mail us at CNN@gwu.edu. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
J. CARVILLE: A day after raising the threat level to orange, Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge is warning, the airlines remain the terrorist weapon of choice.
A senior Defense Department tells CNN that surface-to-air missiles mounted on vehicles may soon be deployed around Washington. Happy holidays from al Qaeda. The question is, are we doing enough about it?
In the CROSSFIRE, Bob Walker, former congressman from Pennsylvania, and D.C. Democratic Delegate to Congress Eleanor Holmes Norton.
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: Welcome, both of you.
BOB WALKER (R), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Thank you.
BUCHANAN: Congresswoman Norton, what happened in the last couple of days is, you had an incredible increase in the volume of e-mails and calls that were interpreted by or received by our community, our intelligence community. FBI, CIA, Pentagon, all got together, along with Homeland Security, Justice Department, recommended to the president, we've got to raise the alert. He did so. Did he not do the right thing?
ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (D), WASHINGTON, D.C. DELEGATE: Of course he did.
The problem is not in raising the alert. The problem is that they got the same alert in Podunk that they have in Washington. These alerts have not been calibrated. The Gilmore Commission, which is the commission set up by the president, the Republican governor of Virginia, said as much. We're wasting a lot. It's a jobless recovery. We're wasting a lot of effort and time by giving a blanket alert to the entire country, as if everybody were equally at risk. And that is simply not the case.
BUCHANAN: But, Congresswoman, I think that -- and every citizen in this country has a certain amount of intelligence here. They can figure this out for themselves. Obviously, if you live in New York or D.C., you understand that it's a greater threat.
But if I live out there in Podunk, I may be sending my son back to New York on a plane for the holidays. I read this and say, you know, maybe I'll put him on the train, instead of putting him on a plane. Don't they have a right to understand that this is scary times and that they might be able to make decisions and change what they were going to do?
NORTON: They have a right to have this translated to their locale, so that they can make the very decision you say.
The fact is that this is not impossible to do, or else these commissions wouldn't be telling them that you can do better than that. And a blanket alert does not help a person to make that decision. Indeed, even law enforcement officers can't translate these alerts to their own locale. They just say, everybody, do the same thing. And they're doing it their own way.
There's no real guidance on what to do if you're in one locale or in another.
J. CARVILLE: Congressman, you and I have gotten into some pretty heated battles here about tax cuts or fiscal policy or the war in Iraq, anything else. But I think we -- I know we both can agree that we don't want another terrorist alert.
(CROSSTALK)
J. CARVILLE: And I think we both can agree this is a very difficult decision for these guys to make.
WALKER: Absolutely.
J. CARVILLE: What -- try to take us a little bit, based on what you know. What kind of intelligence -- how do we -- I know it's an orange alert. They're getting something. How accurate is what they get? Or is this just a case of...
WALKER: Well, it's certainly subject to interpretation.
You've got a lot of information. And a lot of it comes from different sources, some of them electronic sources, electronic gathering sources, some of them from people on the ground, some of them from the kinds of networks that we have. And it's up to people to interpret.
And what they have found in the past is that, when we have an increased volume of traffic, when you have people actually saying that something's going to come, it sometimes happens. And I think that they just found that, in this particular instance, they had enough information to believe that this was something that they had to act on.
And the real question here is one of, we don't know where they might strike. It's logical that they might go to a New York or a Washington. But who knows? They might go to a freight terminal someplace else.
(CROSSTALK)
J. CARVILLE: Let me take Congresswoman Norton. She represents a place that has hundreds of -- tens of thousands of businesses that are very dependent on the tourist trade. These have come out before. I've seen these orange alerts before, elevated terror threat or something.
Every time that one comes out, a businessperson in her district is hurt. An employee at that place is hurt. And she is asking the question that her people are being hurt by this as to -- do we -- do we have to do this this way, or can we look into ways of trying to narrow the threat?
WALKER: Well, I think it's -- I think it's very hard.
And I think Tom Ridge made the point that people ought to try to go about their regular business, but that they need to have an understanding of why it is that some places are now going to have increased levels of security. I went to a federal building today. I understood why my car was stopped, why we had increased security beyond which we usually have, because we were in orange alert.
I went by the Baltimore Airport on my drive down from Pennsylvania today. I noticed that they were checking cars going into the airport. If people have an understanding of why we are at that level of threat, they understand why they have to wait a little bit longer. It seems to me, that's good information for people to have at a time when officials believe that there's a real problem.
BUCHANAN: Congresswoman, it seems, following that up, I would believe that the citizens of every city and every town in this country have a right to know what's happening, so they can to make their own decisions. You talk about this calibrated thing. The Homeland Security, Tom Ridge, he has only a few minutes to make this quick call. The president makes the call. They're going to announce it so that hospitals across the country can then go to the next level. They have protocols already set up. You have certain places -- in airports, they bring in those dogs that sniff for the bombs. In other places, they close roads. And they do it automatically as soon as they hear this.
Isn't that much more effective and efficient?
NORTON: You act as though this is only a case of -- a matter of stop, look, and listen, and everybody put their eyes out and it will be fine.
Look, the airlines today, the stocks took a huge hit. Why? Because everywhere, all over the United States, the -- people who invest wonder whether or whether not people are going to get on airplanes. Look, I am the first to say that this information should be made widely available and we need to give people as much information as possible.
What I am saying is, you don't give the same information to everybody. And law enforcement officials across the United States are saying, they need to have training on how to respond based on where they are. And the information needs to be translated by the people who are in a -- the best position to translate it. And that is Uncle Sam, not people at the local level.
Only half the jurisdictions -- I'm on Homeland Security -- only half the jurisdictions have had FBI training about what to do if you get a terrorist suspect. We need to put our resources where our mouths have been.
J. CARVILLE: Let me -- because it's kind of my job to sort of question these things. And let me -- this is something that bothers me. This doesn't bother me as a Democrat or somebody that doesn't -- just as a citizen.
I suspect, when they put this alert out, the al Qaeda people, even though they live in caves, they probably hear about it.
(LAUGHTER)
J. CARVILLE: We ain't keeping a very good secret here, OK?
And so, it strikes me that, if they were planning something, that just probably, if they were -- my sense is that they know enough about doctrine to know that surprise is one of the elementary tactics in warfare. So -- and I'm not saying I disagree with the administration, but isn't it a problem that, when we put these alerts out, that we tell the bad guys that we're spending more time looking for you and invite them to hit us when the threat level goes back down?
WALKER: Oh, that's always a risk.
But, remember, what we've seen from al Qaeda attacks in the past is that they're pretty well networked. They take place over a long period of time. And they do not have instantaneous communication with the groups that are doing these attacks.
And, in fact, we would probably love it if they attempted to communicate to the groups, OK, the alert is up; don't attack, because that communication alone would likely be picked up and we would have an opportunity to catch them. So they don't do that kind of communicating, James.
(CROSSTALK)
J. CARVILLE: I stay up at night worrying about stuff maybe I didn't need to worry about. But if I was, like, one of the guys, I'd say, 33 days after the threat goes down is the time that you do X. They probably could -- I don't disagree with what the administration is doing, but I just -- a lot of things scare me.
WALKER: But that's the reason why there's a constant state of checking and trying to keep the threats down.
And the fact is, we've been successful. We shouldn't ignore the fact that there have been a number of instances where we believe that planned attacks against the United States have been thwarted by the network that we have in place. It seems to me that's
(CROSSTALK)
NORTON: It's interesting. The experts say that putting the alert up has a deterrent effect. And since the experts say that, I'm for putting the alerts up. I'm just for making sure that everybody doesn't run for cover.
(CROSSTALK)
J. CARVILLE: ... trying to do it when we're really looking for them to a time we're not looking. That's my kind of concern.
BUCHANAN: And following up on what James is saying, if you put out an alert that says, Boston, D.C. and New York should be cautious, they're the ones we have to up the alert, then it seems to me that the al Qaeda that come in say, change to Saint Louis.
(CROSSTALK)
BUCHANAN: How about San Francisco? I mean, you can't...
NORTON: Let me tell you, when it comes to alerts, there's certainly a risk you have to take that the more you tell the public, the more you also tell them.
So -- but, as I said to James -- and I'm on the Homeland Security Committee -- we are assured that the alerts have a deterrent effect. So I'm saying, put the alerts up. But I'm saying, when you have this color code that even law enforcement officials don't know how to make hide or hair of it yet, and we've been using it for 18 months and the colors don't mean -- we've been on yellow, by the way, for the last six mow months. That's we've been in elevated. Do you know what that means?
(APPLAUSE)
(LAUGHTER)
WALKER: Well, but the fact is -- the fact is, what we've had is a series of decisions by local officials to get the kind of training that they need. And so we are moving in the right direction on that front.
BUCHANAN: We're going to have -- we're have to take a quick break here.
But up ahead, we will be having "Rapid Fire." And right after the break, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on the damage that's been done in today's earthquake out there in California.
You all stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
J. CARVILLE: It's time for "Rapid Fire," where the questions and answers come a whole lot faster than folks get through the security line at the airline terminals, thanks to our higher security alert.
(LAUGHTER)
J. CARVILLE: We're talking about homeland security with former Pennsylvania Republican Congressman Bob Walker and D.C. Democratic Delegate to the Congress of the United States of America Eleanor Holmes Norton.
BUCHANAN: Congresswoman, Saddam Hussein is captured. He is going to be tried for his crimes. The president of the United States -- this is a good thing and the president of the United States does deserve credit. Do you agree?
NORTON: Of course it's a good thing. We all wanted that. But it's not what the president told us we were invading Iraq for.
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: But it's a good thing he gets credit for, right?
(LAUGHTER)
J. CARVILLE: Congressman Walker, we have elections, free elections in Iraq in under a year or over a year?
WALKER: No, I think it will be under a year.
J. CARVILLE: Under a year.
WALKER: But when there will be elections. Your interpretation of free will be the question
(CROSSTALK)
J. CARVILLE: Well, it's not free, it ain't an election.
(LAUGHTER)
WALKER: No, the point being, they will write their own constitution. And their own constitution will not necessarily reflect elections the way we do them. But I think that there will be elections within a year.
J. CARVILLE: All right. One more, quickly.
BUCHANAN: Yes.
Libya is now turning over their weapons of mass destruction. President Bush, again, we're a safer place and he gets the credit.
(BELL RINGING)
NORTON: Sure the administration gets the credit for that. And I think who also gets the credit for it...
J. CARVILLE: Well, we ought to give credit for -- ought to give credit to
(CROSSTALK)
BUCHANAN: To George Bush. George Bush. That's the way it is.
J. CARVILLE: Thank you. Oh, my goodness. Does he get the blame for the deaths?
And NBC's Tim Russert has a lot of big-name guests on his "Meet the Press" program, but few could rival the star power he encountered this weekend.
We'll show you what the CROSSFIRE connection is right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
J. CARVILLE: People talk about "Meet the Press" moderator Tim Russert being one of the toughest interviewers on TV. But in the hands of some good guests, he's like butter.
Here's a quick lesson about how to handle tough Tim
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "MEET THE PRESS")
TIM RUSSERT, HOST: And on this Christmas week, we are joined by Matty, age 8, Emma, age 5, the Carville-Matalin girls.
Matty, who's going to win the Sugar Bowl?
MATTY CARVILLE, DAUGHTER OF JAMES CARVILLE: LSU, period. RUSSERT: Now, Emma, my boy is getting ready to go to college, because boys go to college to get knowledge.
EMMA CARVILLE, DAUGHTER OF JAMES J. CARVILLE: No. Girls go to college to get more knowledge.
J. CARVILLE: And what do boys do, Emma?
E. CARVILLE: Go to Jupiter to get more stupider.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
J. CARVILLE: All right. Now that's the way you handle things, all right?
BUCHANAN: I've got to tell you, you've got two girls there with Mary's looks and Mary's brains. Going to make two great conservatives one day, James.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
J. CARVILLE: Well, I'm not going to get into -- I'm not going to get into their political affiliation, but I have the two best-looking children and brightest, wittiest, sweetest children in the entire world, bar none. I don't know if I deserve it, but I've got them, and they're great children.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
J. CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
BUCHANAN: And from the right, I'm Bay Buchanan.
Tune in tomorrow again for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
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Aired December 22, 2003 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: Thanks to terrorism threats, getting over the river, through the woods, and past security is a lot harder.
TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: We cannot quit being America just because of these threats.
ANNOUNCER: Are you on alert? Is the government doing enough to keep us safe?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Bay Buchanan.
(APPLAUSE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
And a special welcome to today's guest host on the right, Bay Buchanan of the American Cause.
Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge says we should go about our business even though the country has gone on a code orange terror alert. So, we're going to start like always, with the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
(CROSSTALK)
BAY BUCHANAN, GUEST HOST: The Democratic primary never ceases to amuse.
On "INSIDE POLITICS" just now and yesterday's "This Week," General Clark said Howard Dean asked him to be his running mate. And that was when the two met last September, before Clark got into the race. Dean's camp says, no way; it never happened. Dean himself said the same thing today. I don't know who is telling the truth, but I do know one thing. And that is that Clark is the loser in this exchange.
Those who believe Dean now know Clark, or believe Clark to be a liar. And those that believe Clark wonder why a man who was once offered the No. 2 spot on the ticket by the front-runner would so offend the front-runner as to never get that offer again -- James.
(LAUGHTER)
J. CARVILLE: Well, maybe they ought to have Ken Starr come in and investigate.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
J. CARVILLE: Everybody recounting an event and a different thing. But it is an interesting thing. And I bet you they get asked about it in the next debate. And we're going to get a chance to see them go toe to toe at each other and have two different stories.
BUCHANAN: But, James, why didn't they just finesse it? They could have very easily said, well, they talked about it, but didn't ask him, or something like that.
J. CARVILLE: That's a good question. Maybe somebody will ask them, say, why didn't you just fake it...
(LAUGHTER)
J. CARVILLE: ... and just say, well, we talked about it, but it could have been interpreted two different ways?
(BELL RINGING)
J. CARVILLE: I don't know. But I want to watch the next debate to see what happens.
All right, there's a fancy word to describe the so-called news put out by the Bush administration, apocryphal. It's means something that is doubtful or not authentic or not genuine. "TIME" magazine has a great example. You know the story. When U.S. troops found Saddam Hussein in his spider hole, a soldier said, "Regards from President Bush."
A U.S. intelligence official tells "TIME," this story is suspected of being apocryphal. Even people who want to believe this administration can't. It's all about right-wing publicity, in other words, apocryphal.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
J. CARVILLE: Maybe the meeting between Clark and Dean was apocryphal.
(LAUGHTER)
BUCHANAN: The problem with your -- your little anecdote there is that the sergeant, an Army sergeant, told that story directly to the press, and the press ran with it. It wasn't the administration that put that piece out. They may have thought it was a very interesting little tidbit, but...
J. CARVILLE: But did they correct it? It's just like the administration didn't put out that they were told they would have all of these problems in Iraq, but they were told that by Mr. Warrick. And they didn't do anything to correct it. Of course, they didn't. And they knew it wasn't the case. It was the same thing with Air Force One being under attack on 9/11.
BUCHANAN: Oh, come on.
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: They can't be worried about all these -- the administration can't be worried about all these little details. But the press has some job here, some responsibility.
J. CARVILLE: Apocryphal.
(LAUGHTER)
BUCHANAN: Whatever.
(LAUGHTER)
J. CARVILLE: All right.
BUCHANAN: And "TIME" -- OK.
(BELL RINGING)
BUCHANAN: Next little one here.
"TIME" magazine's selection for person of the year, they are often off the wall. But this year, "TIME"'s editorial board got it right by selecting the American soldier.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: My sentiments precisely.
Part of the "TIME"'s explanation reads: "They swept across Iraq and conquered it in 21 days. They stand guard on streets potholed with skepticism and rancor. They caught Saddam Hussein. They are the face of America, its might and goodwill." "TIME"'s choice is one that I believe all of us, right, left, and center, can agree and should salute.
J. CARVILLE: I agree completely. I said the same thing yesterday morning on Tim Russert's "Meet the Press."
But I -- I would point out that our fighting men and women deserve better than to have a war that they start that they have no plan how to deal with the peace. (APPLAUSE)
J. CARVILLE: We would have served them better had they listened to people like Mr. Warrick, had they listened to people who talked about the problems they would have, because a report of the 3rd Infantry Division points out that, when they got to Baghdad, they had no idea what to do. That's not the way you should deal with people.
BUCHANAN: But, you know -- you know, whatever happened, this military really sat down there and studied it. I really have looked into what happened and how we captured Saddam Hussein. James, maybe you've done the same. And it's really the terrific hard work of the military, their intelligence, putting that system together.
(BELL RINGING)
BUCHANAN: They caught him. It was not luck.
J. CARVILLE: If you're just listening, look up at your screen. You're not going to believe what you're about to see. The New Orleans Saints added a real doozy to their long and illustrious history yesterday.
(LAUGHTER)
J. CARVILLE: They scored a 75-yard touchdown on the last play of the game, a never-say-die pass play that saw the ball in the air four times. Look at this. The impossible pulled the Saints within one point of Jacksonville.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back to McAllister. Still alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my God!
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He does, into the end zone for the touchdown!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
J. CARVILLE: All they needed to get to overtime was the extra point. Can you believe it? The kicker missed and the Saints lost. People in Boston talk about the curse of the Bambino. And Chicago Cub fans have the curse of the billy goat. But every New Orleans Saint fans know they pale in comparison to the curse of Marie Laveau. The voodoo queen has struck again.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: You know, James, what is amazing -- and I don't follow that team very well, but I -- very closely -- but I do know the kicker is an amazing kicker; 35 out of 35 this season, he's been successful; 130 out of the last 130, he's successful. What is this?
J. CARVILLE: Well, actually, 402 out of 404, 402 out of 405. He's now 402 out of 406.
It's very simple. This Boston-Chicago tiddlywinks little old curses they claim to have don't amount to anything. If you want a real curse, go to New Orleans, where they have voodoo, Marie Laveau. She's got something for you. This ain't no little billy goat, Bambino.
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: And with that, the holidays are here. And for some, the stress is even greater than usual.
Up next, handling a high-alert holiday. Does it make us any safer?
And later, Tim Russert comes up against some one-of-a-kind guests on his Sunday talk show.
Stay with us.
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to the live Washington audience, call 202-994-8CNN or e-mail us at CNN@gwu.edu. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
J. CARVILLE: A day after raising the threat level to orange, Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge is warning, the airlines remain the terrorist weapon of choice.
A senior Defense Department tells CNN that surface-to-air missiles mounted on vehicles may soon be deployed around Washington. Happy holidays from al Qaeda. The question is, are we doing enough about it?
In the CROSSFIRE, Bob Walker, former congressman from Pennsylvania, and D.C. Democratic Delegate to Congress Eleanor Holmes Norton.
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: Welcome, both of you.
BOB WALKER (R), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Thank you.
BUCHANAN: Congresswoman Norton, what happened in the last couple of days is, you had an incredible increase in the volume of e-mails and calls that were interpreted by or received by our community, our intelligence community. FBI, CIA, Pentagon, all got together, along with Homeland Security, Justice Department, recommended to the president, we've got to raise the alert. He did so. Did he not do the right thing?
ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (D), WASHINGTON, D.C. DELEGATE: Of course he did.
The problem is not in raising the alert. The problem is that they got the same alert in Podunk that they have in Washington. These alerts have not been calibrated. The Gilmore Commission, which is the commission set up by the president, the Republican governor of Virginia, said as much. We're wasting a lot. It's a jobless recovery. We're wasting a lot of effort and time by giving a blanket alert to the entire country, as if everybody were equally at risk. And that is simply not the case.
BUCHANAN: But, Congresswoman, I think that -- and every citizen in this country has a certain amount of intelligence here. They can figure this out for themselves. Obviously, if you live in New York or D.C., you understand that it's a greater threat.
But if I live out there in Podunk, I may be sending my son back to New York on a plane for the holidays. I read this and say, you know, maybe I'll put him on the train, instead of putting him on a plane. Don't they have a right to understand that this is scary times and that they might be able to make decisions and change what they were going to do?
NORTON: They have a right to have this translated to their locale, so that they can make the very decision you say.
The fact is that this is not impossible to do, or else these commissions wouldn't be telling them that you can do better than that. And a blanket alert does not help a person to make that decision. Indeed, even law enforcement officers can't translate these alerts to their own locale. They just say, everybody, do the same thing. And they're doing it their own way.
There's no real guidance on what to do if you're in one locale or in another.
J. CARVILLE: Congressman, you and I have gotten into some pretty heated battles here about tax cuts or fiscal policy or the war in Iraq, anything else. But I think we -- I know we both can agree that we don't want another terrorist alert.
(CROSSTALK)
J. CARVILLE: And I think we both can agree this is a very difficult decision for these guys to make.
WALKER: Absolutely.
J. CARVILLE: What -- try to take us a little bit, based on what you know. What kind of intelligence -- how do we -- I know it's an orange alert. They're getting something. How accurate is what they get? Or is this just a case of...
WALKER: Well, it's certainly subject to interpretation.
You've got a lot of information. And a lot of it comes from different sources, some of them electronic sources, electronic gathering sources, some of them from people on the ground, some of them from the kinds of networks that we have. And it's up to people to interpret.
And what they have found in the past is that, when we have an increased volume of traffic, when you have people actually saying that something's going to come, it sometimes happens. And I think that they just found that, in this particular instance, they had enough information to believe that this was something that they had to act on.
And the real question here is one of, we don't know where they might strike. It's logical that they might go to a New York or a Washington. But who knows? They might go to a freight terminal someplace else.
(CROSSTALK)
J. CARVILLE: Let me take Congresswoman Norton. She represents a place that has hundreds of -- tens of thousands of businesses that are very dependent on the tourist trade. These have come out before. I've seen these orange alerts before, elevated terror threat or something.
Every time that one comes out, a businessperson in her district is hurt. An employee at that place is hurt. And she is asking the question that her people are being hurt by this as to -- do we -- do we have to do this this way, or can we look into ways of trying to narrow the threat?
WALKER: Well, I think it's -- I think it's very hard.
And I think Tom Ridge made the point that people ought to try to go about their regular business, but that they need to have an understanding of why it is that some places are now going to have increased levels of security. I went to a federal building today. I understood why my car was stopped, why we had increased security beyond which we usually have, because we were in orange alert.
I went by the Baltimore Airport on my drive down from Pennsylvania today. I noticed that they were checking cars going into the airport. If people have an understanding of why we are at that level of threat, they understand why they have to wait a little bit longer. It seems to me, that's good information for people to have at a time when officials believe that there's a real problem.
BUCHANAN: Congresswoman, it seems, following that up, I would believe that the citizens of every city and every town in this country have a right to know what's happening, so they can to make their own decisions. You talk about this calibrated thing. The Homeland Security, Tom Ridge, he has only a few minutes to make this quick call. The president makes the call. They're going to announce it so that hospitals across the country can then go to the next level. They have protocols already set up. You have certain places -- in airports, they bring in those dogs that sniff for the bombs. In other places, they close roads. And they do it automatically as soon as they hear this.
Isn't that much more effective and efficient?
NORTON: You act as though this is only a case of -- a matter of stop, look, and listen, and everybody put their eyes out and it will be fine.
Look, the airlines today, the stocks took a huge hit. Why? Because everywhere, all over the United States, the -- people who invest wonder whether or whether not people are going to get on airplanes. Look, I am the first to say that this information should be made widely available and we need to give people as much information as possible.
What I am saying is, you don't give the same information to everybody. And law enforcement officials across the United States are saying, they need to have training on how to respond based on where they are. And the information needs to be translated by the people who are in a -- the best position to translate it. And that is Uncle Sam, not people at the local level.
Only half the jurisdictions -- I'm on Homeland Security -- only half the jurisdictions have had FBI training about what to do if you get a terrorist suspect. We need to put our resources where our mouths have been.
J. CARVILLE: Let me -- because it's kind of my job to sort of question these things. And let me -- this is something that bothers me. This doesn't bother me as a Democrat or somebody that doesn't -- just as a citizen.
I suspect, when they put this alert out, the al Qaeda people, even though they live in caves, they probably hear about it.
(LAUGHTER)
J. CARVILLE: We ain't keeping a very good secret here, OK?
And so, it strikes me that, if they were planning something, that just probably, if they were -- my sense is that they know enough about doctrine to know that surprise is one of the elementary tactics in warfare. So -- and I'm not saying I disagree with the administration, but isn't it a problem that, when we put these alerts out, that we tell the bad guys that we're spending more time looking for you and invite them to hit us when the threat level goes back down?
WALKER: Oh, that's always a risk.
But, remember, what we've seen from al Qaeda attacks in the past is that they're pretty well networked. They take place over a long period of time. And they do not have instantaneous communication with the groups that are doing these attacks.
And, in fact, we would probably love it if they attempted to communicate to the groups, OK, the alert is up; don't attack, because that communication alone would likely be picked up and we would have an opportunity to catch them. So they don't do that kind of communicating, James.
(CROSSTALK)
J. CARVILLE: I stay up at night worrying about stuff maybe I didn't need to worry about. But if I was, like, one of the guys, I'd say, 33 days after the threat goes down is the time that you do X. They probably could -- I don't disagree with what the administration is doing, but I just -- a lot of things scare me.
WALKER: But that's the reason why there's a constant state of checking and trying to keep the threats down.
And the fact is, we've been successful. We shouldn't ignore the fact that there have been a number of instances where we believe that planned attacks against the United States have been thwarted by the network that we have in place. It seems to me that's
(CROSSTALK)
NORTON: It's interesting. The experts say that putting the alert up has a deterrent effect. And since the experts say that, I'm for putting the alerts up. I'm just for making sure that everybody doesn't run for cover.
(CROSSTALK)
J. CARVILLE: ... trying to do it when we're really looking for them to a time we're not looking. That's my kind of concern.
BUCHANAN: And following up on what James is saying, if you put out an alert that says, Boston, D.C. and New York should be cautious, they're the ones we have to up the alert, then it seems to me that the al Qaeda that come in say, change to Saint Louis.
(CROSSTALK)
BUCHANAN: How about San Francisco? I mean, you can't...
NORTON: Let me tell you, when it comes to alerts, there's certainly a risk you have to take that the more you tell the public, the more you also tell them.
So -- but, as I said to James -- and I'm on the Homeland Security Committee -- we are assured that the alerts have a deterrent effect. So I'm saying, put the alerts up. But I'm saying, when you have this color code that even law enforcement officials don't know how to make hide or hair of it yet, and we've been using it for 18 months and the colors don't mean -- we've been on yellow, by the way, for the last six mow months. That's we've been in elevated. Do you know what that means?
(APPLAUSE)
(LAUGHTER)
WALKER: Well, but the fact is -- the fact is, what we've had is a series of decisions by local officials to get the kind of training that they need. And so we are moving in the right direction on that front.
BUCHANAN: We're going to have -- we're have to take a quick break here.
But up ahead, we will be having "Rapid Fire." And right after the break, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on the damage that's been done in today's earthquake out there in California.
You all stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
J. CARVILLE: It's time for "Rapid Fire," where the questions and answers come a whole lot faster than folks get through the security line at the airline terminals, thanks to our higher security alert.
(LAUGHTER)
J. CARVILLE: We're talking about homeland security with former Pennsylvania Republican Congressman Bob Walker and D.C. Democratic Delegate to the Congress of the United States of America Eleanor Holmes Norton.
BUCHANAN: Congresswoman, Saddam Hussein is captured. He is going to be tried for his crimes. The president of the United States -- this is a good thing and the president of the United States does deserve credit. Do you agree?
NORTON: Of course it's a good thing. We all wanted that. But it's not what the president told us we were invading Iraq for.
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: But it's a good thing he gets credit for, right?
(LAUGHTER)
J. CARVILLE: Congressman Walker, we have elections, free elections in Iraq in under a year or over a year?
WALKER: No, I think it will be under a year.
J. CARVILLE: Under a year.
WALKER: But when there will be elections. Your interpretation of free will be the question
(CROSSTALK)
J. CARVILLE: Well, it's not free, it ain't an election.
(LAUGHTER)
WALKER: No, the point being, they will write their own constitution. And their own constitution will not necessarily reflect elections the way we do them. But I think that there will be elections within a year.
J. CARVILLE: All right. One more, quickly.
BUCHANAN: Yes.
Libya is now turning over their weapons of mass destruction. President Bush, again, we're a safer place and he gets the credit.
(BELL RINGING)
NORTON: Sure the administration gets the credit for that. And I think who also gets the credit for it...
J. CARVILLE: Well, we ought to give credit for -- ought to give credit to
(CROSSTALK)
BUCHANAN: To George Bush. George Bush. That's the way it is.
J. CARVILLE: Thank you. Oh, my goodness. Does he get the blame for the deaths?
And NBC's Tim Russert has a lot of big-name guests on his "Meet the Press" program, but few could rival the star power he encountered this weekend.
We'll show you what the CROSSFIRE connection is right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
J. CARVILLE: People talk about "Meet the Press" moderator Tim Russert being one of the toughest interviewers on TV. But in the hands of some good guests, he's like butter.
Here's a quick lesson about how to handle tough Tim
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "MEET THE PRESS")
TIM RUSSERT, HOST: And on this Christmas week, we are joined by Matty, age 8, Emma, age 5, the Carville-Matalin girls.
Matty, who's going to win the Sugar Bowl?
MATTY CARVILLE, DAUGHTER OF JAMES CARVILLE: LSU, period. RUSSERT: Now, Emma, my boy is getting ready to go to college, because boys go to college to get knowledge.
EMMA CARVILLE, DAUGHTER OF JAMES J. CARVILLE: No. Girls go to college to get more knowledge.
J. CARVILLE: And what do boys do, Emma?
E. CARVILLE: Go to Jupiter to get more stupider.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
J. CARVILLE: All right. Now that's the way you handle things, all right?
BUCHANAN: I've got to tell you, you've got two girls there with Mary's looks and Mary's brains. Going to make two great conservatives one day, James.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
J. CARVILLE: Well, I'm not going to get into -- I'm not going to get into their political affiliation, but I have the two best-looking children and brightest, wittiest, sweetest children in the entire world, bar none. I don't know if I deserve it, but I've got them, and they're great children.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
J. CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
BUCHANAN: And from the right, I'm Bay Buchanan.
Tune in tomorrow again for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
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