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CNN Crossfire
Should Democrats Stop Beating Up on Howard Dean?
Aired January 02, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: It's a new year. He's way out in front in a new poll. Is it time for the Democrats to stop beating up on Howard Dean? After all, somebody else is waiting.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm looking forward to 2004.
ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Chances are, Howard Dean's going to be disappointed if he thinks his fellow Democrats have made New Year's resolutions to stop attacking him.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Today, we will ask two congressmen, one a Dean supporter, one a supporter of Wesley Clark, if their candidates can stand up to the rough-and-tumble of a presidential campaign.
But first, year out and year in, it remains the best little political briefing in television. Here it is, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Yet another flight from London to Washington was canceled today because of security concerns. Meanwhile, at Washington's Dulles Airport, where five terrorists had slipped through security, hijacked a jet and crashed it into the Pentagon on 9/11, "Washington Post" reports today that the Bush administration's top security official for Dulles Airport was allegedly drunk while he was on duty for a code orange alert on New Year's Eve.
I think this is just a perfect metaphor for Mr. Bush's priorities in the war on terror. You see, he's wasted trillions of your tax money on tax cuts for the wealthy, which gives them quite a party. But there's no money left over to hire good people or inspect ships or protect plants or to fulfill the president's first constitutional duty, to provide for the common defense. Party on, indeed.
NOVAK: A couple...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: A couple of facts, Paul.
First place, this guy who was arrested was arrested DUI, driving in his car. We don't know that he was on duty that night at all. No. 2, he's not a member of the Bush administration. He's a part of a bureaucracy, the Transportation Security Agency, which the Democrats insisted on setting up as a bureaucratic operation. So don't -- don't foist this guy or his behavior that was reprehensible...
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: ... on the administration.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: In 19 -- in 1864, the worst year of the Civil War, General George B. McClellan landed as the Democratic candidate against Abraham Lincoln as an anti-war candidate, figuring to clean with war- weary soldiers.
Now, 140 years later, another general turned Democrat, Wes Clark, is running against George Bush as an anti-war candidate, probably expecting the support from the troops that McClellan expected and didn't get. Clark is likely to be just as disappointed. According to an "Army Times" poll of the troops, it shows them 53 percent conservative, 7 percent liberal. It also indicates 57 percent Republican to 13 percent Democrat in a country otherwise evenly divided.
General Clark, you better not campaign in the barracks.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: This is the first time anybody compared George W. Bush to Abraham Lincoln. You know, they called Abraham Lincoln "Honest Abe' for a reason. Ain't nobody is calling Bush "Honest George." Abraham Lincoln didn't lie us into the Civil War.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: George W. Bush has misled us and he has misused those troops. And those soldiers would be better represented by General Clark or any of the Democrats in the White House.
NOVAK: What do you think? What do you think? You think that they're just dumb that they're Republicans, conservative? You have contempt for those troops, because they want your
(BELL RINGING) (CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I don't want to -- I don't want to lie about them and send them halfway around the world for a war we didn't need to fight. That's contempt.
NOVAK: You didn't answer.
BEGALA: That's what Mr. Bush has.
NOVAK: You didn't answer.
BEGALA: Well, the Associated Press reports that, after nine months of searching and $700 million of your money, not a single item on a long classified list of weapons of mass destruction has been found in Iraq, not one. The AP calls it -- quote -- "the most secretive, expensive and fruitless weapons hunt in history" -- unquote.
Now, nearly 500 of those brave American troopers dead. Thousands more are wounded. And $160 billion of your money is gone. But there is no evidence, none, that Iraq ever threatened America, as President Bush claimed. In fact, Mr. Bush's chief arms hunter, David Kay, called the president's claim that trailers found in Iraq housed biological weapons labs -- quote -- "a fiasco" -- unquote.
No, Mr. Kay, it's not just a fiasco. It's also a falsehood and surely not the last you'll hear from Mr. Bush about this war.
NOVAK: Let me...
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Let me ask you, Paul. Quite apart from the weapons of mass destruction, do you wish that Saddam Hussein were back in power in Baghdad? Is that what's eating you?
BEGALA: I wish we had a president that told us the truth. He was no threat to America. He knew it or should have known it. He should have never launched that war.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: ... won't answer my question.
BEGALA: He should have never launched that war.
NOVAK: Answer my question.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: It was not worth the lives of 500 men and women.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: No, sir.
NOVAK: Answer my question.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Not for a lie. It was not worth the life of one American to attack a country that was no threat to the United States of America.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Answer my question. Answer my question. Do you wish he were back -- do you wish he were back in Baghdad?
BEGALA: I'm glad he's gone, Bob. But I'm more sorry that those Americans are dead.
NOVAK: You're glad he's gone.
BEGALA: That's what we've done with
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: I admire Willie Nelson, who comes from my wife's hometown, Abbott, Texas, as a great country singer who was persecuted by federal tax collectors.
But he went over the top on Christmas Day, when he got so angry watching the TV news that he composed an anti-Bush screed called "Whatever Happened to Peace On Earth?" He'll sing it tomorrow at a benefit for presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich. The chorus: "Hell they wont lie to me, not on my own damn TV. But how much is a liar's word worth? And whatever happened to peace on Earth?"
I didn't sing that.
Willie, calling the president, any president, a liar, is over the top, even a past president who lied about sex.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: So it's OK to lie about a war, but not about sex?
Look, Willie Nelson is a great American. I love his entertainment. But I love his courage even more. He could sit there on his millions of dollars, as a rich Texan with a rich Texan in the White House. But he has the courage to stand up for those soldiers and for every American who wants a president that tells us the truth.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: And that's what we deserve.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: God bless Willie.
NOVAK: I remember when you said it was disrespectful to call Bill Clinton a liar.
BEGALA: I try not to use that word about George W. Bush. I try not to. But he begs for it, man.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, you're using it. You're using it right now.
BEGALA: I try not to.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: But, like we say in Texas, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.
NOVAK: All right, 2004 is there. And that means, things are heating up in the race for president.
On the Democrats' side of the race, all eyes are on Dr. Howard Dean. Can anybody stop the little guy from Vermont from getting the party nomination?
And later, who is in, who is out on the style scene? And why is James Carville part of this discussion?
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Get ahead of the CROSSFIRE. Sign up for CROSSFIRE's daily "Political Alert" e-mail. You'll get a preview of each day's show, plus an inside look at the day's political headlines. Just go to CNN.com/CROSSFIRE and sign up today.
Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to the live Washington audience, call 202-994-8CNN or e- mail us at CNN@gwu.edu. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
A just released CNN/"TIME" magazine poll shows Howard Dean is starting off the new year at the very top of the pack of nine Democratic candidates. But Dean's opponents say that the former Vermont governor would almost surely lose to President George W. Bush in a fall matchup.
So, is Howard Dean unstoppable or is he unelectable?
Joining us from the Big Apple to discuss is New York Democratic Congressman Anthony Weiner, who is a Wesley Clark supporter.
Congress Weiner, good to see you again, sir. Happy new year.
REP. ANTHONY WEINER (D), NEW YORK: Happy new year to you as well.
NOVAK: Congressman Weiner, we all know that your candidate, General Clark, is a rookie. He's made all the rookie mistakes that are made.
But I think the thing that hurts him so much more than anything else is a quote in September by his former commanding officer, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Hugh Shelton, a real soldier's soldier, one of Bill Clinton's favorite soldiers.
And Hugh Shelton this: "I will tell you, the reason he" -- that is General Clark -- came out of Europe early had to do with integrity and character issues, things that are very near and dear to my heart. Wes won't get my vote."
How do you explain that?
WEINER: Well, first of all, General Shelton's boss, Bill Clinton, disagreed with that.
But, more importantly, it isn't about one vote, General Shelton's vote. It's about who is going to be the person to take this battle to George Bush. Look, any of the Democratic nominees, on their worst day, is better than George Bush on his best day. But if we want to look at who has the best chance of beating President Bush, I want to see President Bush try to make national security and defense his defining issue when he's looking across the podium in a debate at General Clark. He's not going to be able to do it.
General Clark has shown he can raise the money to keep up with just about anyone in the field. And that's why I'm supporting him. But make no mistake about it. Any one of the nominees that emerges from the Democratic field would be preferable to George Bush.
NOVAK: I understand you feel that way, but I'd love to have you try to answer the question, because I've been trying to get the Clark supporters to answer it for months. What are these integrity and character issues? You must have looked into it, if you're supporting the man for president. And a man with the reputation of General Hugh Shelton said that. You must wonder, what in the world is eating him about his fellow officer?
WEINER: Well, you also have to wonder about General Shelton not answering that question himself. He's refused to, ever since he has made it. He's hiding under a desk somewhere, hoping that you never find him to ask that question in person. Get him on, on the show.
But he certainly is out of sync with just about everyone else who has worked with General Clark, who say that he's a true American hero. And I think that President Bush would also probably say that about General Clark, if pressed. BEGALA: Congressman Weiner, first, thanks for coming on. Good to see you again.
I want to ask you about that war. It's become the central issue in the Democratic primaries, that -- the vote to use force in Iraq. Now, you supported the use of force in Iraq. But your candidate, General Clark, has said, he would have never supported such a resolution. So, were you wrong, or was General Clark wrong about the most important issue in the election?
WEINER: Well, he and I came from a very similar position to this to begin with. We both thought we wanted to be supportive of President Bush. We wanted to be supportive of the commander in chief in negotiating to disarm Iraq. Came to a different conclusion about whether to vote yes on the resolution.
I don't begrudge him that. But I certainly want to tell you something. He's someone that has a record second to none on defense issues, is much smarter on national security issues than President Bush is, and someone I think would be a preferable president. And I have to tell you, our party was -- is and was split on the right thing to do on that vote. It was a very difficult call.
There's probably no vote that's tougher for a member of Congress. But our nominee has to be able to go into this debate with answers and solutions on a broad slew of national security and anti-terrorism matters. And if that's going to be the seminal issue of the campaign, I want General Clark as our nominee.
BEGALA: Well, let me press it. Is Howard Dean qualified to be commander in chief?
WEINER: Absolutely.
BEGALA: He is?
NOVAK: I want to ask you this. You know, you talk about electability and all that and who can win. In the Democratic Party, among registered Democrats, according to a poll just taken over the New Year's weekend by CNN/"TIME" -- let's put it on the screen -- Howard Dean, 46 percent, General Clark, 32 percent.
That -- that isn't even close. I mean, this is -- he's got -- this early, Governor Dean has almost half of the Republican -- of the Democratic votes. Congressman, that's going to be very hard to beat, isn't it?
WEINER: Well, there's no doubt about it. Dean is the front- runner and General Clark is the alternative.
I think that, right about now, Dean in many of the polls in Iowa, New Hampshire and other places has plateaued at about 40 percent, which, in a seven- or eight-way field, is pretty impressive. No doubt about it, Governor Dean is the front-runner. The question that I hope that Democratic primary voters, who, by the way, have not cast a single vote, I hope they focus on the question, who is the most electable in a general election, not who gets us fired up, not who do we send a message with.
Who do we put in the field that is going to win? Who is the best person to kind of put together this Clinton coalition of moderate Southern voters, liberal Eastern voters, and everyone in between? And I think General Clark is the perfect candidate for that.
BEGALA: Congressman, do you think it was fair for General Clark to attack Governor Dean for failing his draft physical about 30 years? Was that a fair attack?
WEINER: I -- I hadn't heard that, but if he -- and I don't know much about that.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Here's what he said. Let me fill you in on the background.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Let me fill you in on the background.
He -- General Clark pointed out that Governor Dean submitted to a physical and failed and so was not drafted and then went skiing in Aspen. He pointed out that, while Governor Dean was skiing, he was recovering from his war wounds in Vietnam. Do you think that that's a fair issue to raise, the fact that...
WEINER: I think that...
BEGALA: ... General Clark is a decorated military hero and Governor Dean did not serve?
WEINER: I think it's fair to point out that General Clark is a decorated war veteran a decorated patriotic American.
I don't believe that Governor Dean is not patriotic. I don't believe he's any less of an American. But, look, one of the things that they're doing is comparing biographies now. There's no doubt about it that some voters are going to be interested in hearing that, while one candidate was skiing, another candidate was risking his life in Vietnam.
NOVAK: Congressman, try to enlighten me on something, because I really always try to find the truth
(CROSSTALK)
WEINER: That's why I come on the show, to enlighten you, Mr. Novak.
NOVAK: Thank you.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: You know, it was just last year, General Clark was appearing at Republican fund-raisers in his home state of Arkansas, saying that there was a dream team that had been assembled of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld. And -- and he -- he told people he was a Republican.
What do you think suddenly turned him overnight into a Democrat and a Democratic presidential candidate? Do you think it might have been that the job, as far as the Republican nomination, beating George Bush for the Republican nomination was pretty tough, and that, if he wanted to be president, he had to be a Democrat?
WEINER: No, I think that he was voiced where a lot of Americans were. They were supportive of president. They wanted him to do well. They were rooting for him.
Then they watched after month after month, he drove the economy into the ground, bungled the recovery in Iraq, and essentially said where a lot of voters are going to be come November 2004, and said, listen, I was pulling for this guy, but he's let us down and I'm going to vote the other way.
NOVAK: Why is it, Congressman, that all you left-wing New Yorkers, like Charlie Rangel and you and several members of your delegation, you like this general who used to be a Republican? Can you explain that to me?
WEINER: Well, I don't know where to start correcting the question.
(LAUGHTER)
WEINER: First of all, I would probably say that General Clark is one of the more moderate voices in the primary, not the more liberal one.
And any -- anyone who is supporting General Clark, one of the reasons that's highest on their list is his electability. And many Democrats want to follow the model that Bill Clinton drew up for us in 1992, with the help of Paul Begala. And that is, try to figure out ways to get elected first. And then we can all find our ways to govern for the next eight years.
I think Democrats are unified in our desire to get rid of President Bush. General Clark is our ticket to doing that.
NOVAK: Congressman Weiner, thank you very much for being with us. A happy new year to you.
WEINER: Happy new year to you, too.
NOVAK: And right after the break, we'll be joined by a congressman who is a Howard Dean supporter. Can the doctor operate under all the political heat?
But first, a news update on those canceled flights and security concerns facing people who are trying to fly to the United States.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
We're talking about Howard Dean's prospects of remaining the Democratic front-runner.
In the CROSSFIRE now is Congressman James Moran, Democrat of Virginia. And he has endorsed Dr. Dean.
BEGALA: Congressman Moran, good to see you again. Thank you for joining us.
REP. JIM MORAN (D), VIRGINIA: Good to see you. Thank you.
BEGALA: A moment ago, your colleague, fellow Democrat, Congressman Anthony Weiner, supporting Wesley Clark, said one of the big issues for him is electability. He says his guy can beat President Bush and your guy can't.
And, indeed, let's take a look at a poll that was conducted recently in New Hampshire, the state where, of course, Governor Dean is winning.
MORAN: Is leading.
BEGALA: Overwhelmingly.
MORAN: Right.
BEGALA: And his campaign's strong and, frankly, has campaigned brilliantly.
MORAN: Right.
BEGALA: Despite all that exposure, look at this poll.
MORAN: I was just in New Hampshire last week.
BEGALA: Well, President Bush is pounding him in New Hampshire, 57 to 30. Bush crushes Dean. This is a state that was basically a tossup against Al Gore. Bush carried by 7,000 votes. What gives?
MORAN: Well, I think it's early to be focusing on the general election. And we're talking about different issues right now.
Howard Dean is going to take every issue to George Bush. That's why he's running. I do think that the problem with his opponents is, they're not taking the issues to George Bush. They're trying to undermine Howard Dean.
And they'd be far better served, both in the Democratic primary and as candidates, individually and collectively, if they would do what Howard Dean is doing, which is raising the issue that this Medicare bill is a horrible bill for our sickest and oldest seniors. These tax cuts have put our -- the next generation into $12 trillion of debt they'll never get out of, and that the going to war was done under false pretenses.
That's what the Democrats need to be focusing on, not trying to find distinctions between themselves and Howard Dean. The distinction ought to be between themselves and George Bush.
NOVAK: Congressman...
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Congressman, I want you to listen to a fellow Democrat who puts the question of electability in a little stronger terms than Congressman Weiner did. And that's Joe Lieberman, the senator from Connecticut who is running for president.
And let's listen to what he said just about a half-hour ago on "INSIDE POLITICS."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D-CT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Some of the things that -- people in New Hampshire are worried that some of the things that Howard Dean has said are going to be turned right back on him by George W. Bush and Karl Rove and make him unelectable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: And what Joe is saying that the things like, he doesn't think we're safer with Saddam Hussein captured; he doesn't know whether Osama bin Laden is guilty; he doesn't know whether his brother is alive or dead. There's just a lot of peculiar things that Dean has said. Doesn't that bother you?
MORAN: I could find peculiar things that every human being I know has said, including you, Bob.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
MORAN: You know, that's -- I don't think that's the issue.
The issue is, who is going to pick up the mantle and stand for the principles that we believe in as Democrats? And Joe is an example. I like Joe. Joe is a good friend. And I think he's a good Democrat. I think he'd be a better Democrat if he focused on distinguishing himself from George Bush, instead of from Howard Dean.
Joe was one of the earliest supporters, really of the Iraq war among Democrats. And I think a lot of Democrats were influenced by Joe's support. And I think Joe ought to be focusing on the things that he was disappointed in, in terms of George Bush's leadership with the Iraq war. BEGALA: Well, one of the issues you mentioned before when we said what issues is Dean going to take to President Bush. You mentioned Medicare first.
But let me ask you about that. It's emerged as an issue in the primaries. In 1995, I remember well -- and certainly you do -- you helped the Democrats in Congress. You bitterly opposed a Republican plan that would have cut $270 billion from Medicare.
MORAN: That's right.
BEGALA: Yet your candidate, Howard Dean, in 1995 told his hometown paper he fully subscribes -- his words, not mine -- to the notion of the Republican Medicare cuts and that he applauded them. Wasn't he wrong about Medicare? Weren't you right then and wasn't he wrong then?
MORAN: Well, it's sometimes, where you sit is where you stand. And he was a governor of a state that was fiscally conservative. He was a fiscally conservative governor.
And he felt that there are better ways of delivering health care. But he felt that everybody needs to have access to a health care system. So you have to put that in the context that he was struggling to get universal health care for all of the residents of Vermont. And he achieved that objective. He wasn't opposing the Medicare program
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: But, as a great defender of Medicare, you're not troubled by the fact that he sided, frankly, with the Republicans and Speaker Gingrich against you and President Clinton and Democrats in the biggest fight of -- one of the biggest fights of the whole Clinton presidency?
MORAN: You know, I think that sometimes, people's views evolve.
The fact is that he was a -- he was a governor and he recognized that there were some ways to -- I think he was addressing the Medicaid program, frankly, more than the Medicare program.
NOVAK: Jim Moran, I tried to get Congressman Weiner to inform me about some things.
MORAN: Yes.
NOVAK: And, frankly, he failed. I want you to do a better job.
(CROSSTALK)
MORAN: Set me up.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: No.
Howard Dean, on December 1, said, we've got to stop having the campaigns running this country based on abortion, guns, God, and gays. And a lot of people have commented that Howard may be the most secular candidate they've ever seen. He doesn't like to mention God.
And then, on December 27, two days after Christmas, there was a miracle.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: He said, interviewed by, I think -- I won't say who interviewed him. He said, "I think religion is important and spiritual values are very important, which what this election is really about." Is this -- was this a religious experience, like Saint Paul?
(LAUGHTER)
MORAN: Well, you're very clever in setting up this argument.
But you know at least as well as I do that the people who are most spiritual don't talk about their religion or their spirituality. They live it. I think he lives it.
NOVAK: He's a spiritual person?
MORAN: I think do think he's a spiritual person. I do.
NOVAK: I was told he switched from Episcopalian to Congregationalist because the parking spaces were better. Is that true?
(LAUGHTER)
MORAN: Well, you were told wrong. It's not -- you know, sometimes, we don't get accurate information. That's not -- but he doesn't talk about his religion.
(CROSSTALK)
MORAN: But I think he's lived a spiritual life. And that's why he's in public service, instead of making a lot more money as a doctor.
BEGALA: Well, briefly, let me ask you -- we're almost out of time.
MORAN: Yes.
BEGALA: You're a member of Democratic Leadership Council.
MORAN: Yes.
BEGALA: Was Governor Dean wrong when he called it the Republican wing of the Democratic Party? MORAN: It's the more moderate wing of the...
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
MORAN: Good question.
I think that the DLC has been reticent about showing the kinds of differences, stark differences, between George Bush's leadership and -- and the traditional core of the Democratic Party. They have been trying to move the Democratic Party to the middle. I think they've been successful. I think a lot of their ideas are very good. And I think, when Howard Dean is president, he's going to adopt a lot of the ideas of the Democratic Leadership Council. And they're all going to
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Congressman Jim Moran of Virginia, thank you for joining us right after the New Year's holiday.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Well done.
(APPLAUSE)
MORAN: See you, Paul.
BEGALA: Now, just ahead, my buddy James Carville made "The Washington Post"'s out list? Now we'll show you who is taking his -- James's place on the in list in Washington when we come back.
Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: "The Washington Post" has published its list of what's in and what's out for 2004. One item did catch people's eyes here at CROSSFIRE. According to "The Washington Post," our James Carville is out!
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: And Gollum, that sneaky, obsessive, misbehaving character from "The Lord of the Rings" movies is in.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: How can they tell the difference, Paul?
BEGALA: Oh, I don't know. You know, James is one of "People" magazine's sexiest men of the year.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: So I take "People" magazine over "The Washington Post" any day.
From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak.
Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
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Aired January 2, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: It's a new year. He's way out in front in a new poll. Is it time for the Democrats to stop beating up on Howard Dean? After all, somebody else is waiting.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm looking forward to 2004.
ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Chances are, Howard Dean's going to be disappointed if he thinks his fellow Democrats have made New Year's resolutions to stop attacking him.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Today, we will ask two congressmen, one a Dean supporter, one a supporter of Wesley Clark, if their candidates can stand up to the rough-and-tumble of a presidential campaign.
But first, year out and year in, it remains the best little political briefing in television. Here it is, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Yet another flight from London to Washington was canceled today because of security concerns. Meanwhile, at Washington's Dulles Airport, where five terrorists had slipped through security, hijacked a jet and crashed it into the Pentagon on 9/11, "Washington Post" reports today that the Bush administration's top security official for Dulles Airport was allegedly drunk while he was on duty for a code orange alert on New Year's Eve.
I think this is just a perfect metaphor for Mr. Bush's priorities in the war on terror. You see, he's wasted trillions of your tax money on tax cuts for the wealthy, which gives them quite a party. But there's no money left over to hire good people or inspect ships or protect plants or to fulfill the president's first constitutional duty, to provide for the common defense. Party on, indeed.
NOVAK: A couple...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: A couple of facts, Paul.
First place, this guy who was arrested was arrested DUI, driving in his car. We don't know that he was on duty that night at all. No. 2, he's not a member of the Bush administration. He's a part of a bureaucracy, the Transportation Security Agency, which the Democrats insisted on setting up as a bureaucratic operation. So don't -- don't foist this guy or his behavior that was reprehensible...
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: ... on the administration.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: In 19 -- in 1864, the worst year of the Civil War, General George B. McClellan landed as the Democratic candidate against Abraham Lincoln as an anti-war candidate, figuring to clean with war- weary soldiers.
Now, 140 years later, another general turned Democrat, Wes Clark, is running against George Bush as an anti-war candidate, probably expecting the support from the troops that McClellan expected and didn't get. Clark is likely to be just as disappointed. According to an "Army Times" poll of the troops, it shows them 53 percent conservative, 7 percent liberal. It also indicates 57 percent Republican to 13 percent Democrat in a country otherwise evenly divided.
General Clark, you better not campaign in the barracks.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: This is the first time anybody compared George W. Bush to Abraham Lincoln. You know, they called Abraham Lincoln "Honest Abe' for a reason. Ain't nobody is calling Bush "Honest George." Abraham Lincoln didn't lie us into the Civil War.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: George W. Bush has misled us and he has misused those troops. And those soldiers would be better represented by General Clark or any of the Democrats in the White House.
NOVAK: What do you think? What do you think? You think that they're just dumb that they're Republicans, conservative? You have contempt for those troops, because they want your
(BELL RINGING) (CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I don't want to -- I don't want to lie about them and send them halfway around the world for a war we didn't need to fight. That's contempt.
NOVAK: You didn't answer.
BEGALA: That's what Mr. Bush has.
NOVAK: You didn't answer.
BEGALA: Well, the Associated Press reports that, after nine months of searching and $700 million of your money, not a single item on a long classified list of weapons of mass destruction has been found in Iraq, not one. The AP calls it -- quote -- "the most secretive, expensive and fruitless weapons hunt in history" -- unquote.
Now, nearly 500 of those brave American troopers dead. Thousands more are wounded. And $160 billion of your money is gone. But there is no evidence, none, that Iraq ever threatened America, as President Bush claimed. In fact, Mr. Bush's chief arms hunter, David Kay, called the president's claim that trailers found in Iraq housed biological weapons labs -- quote -- "a fiasco" -- unquote.
No, Mr. Kay, it's not just a fiasco. It's also a falsehood and surely not the last you'll hear from Mr. Bush about this war.
NOVAK: Let me...
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Let me ask you, Paul. Quite apart from the weapons of mass destruction, do you wish that Saddam Hussein were back in power in Baghdad? Is that what's eating you?
BEGALA: I wish we had a president that told us the truth. He was no threat to America. He knew it or should have known it. He should have never launched that war.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: ... won't answer my question.
BEGALA: He should have never launched that war.
NOVAK: Answer my question.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: It was not worth the lives of 500 men and women.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: No, sir.
NOVAK: Answer my question.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Not for a lie. It was not worth the life of one American to attack a country that was no threat to the United States of America.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Answer my question. Answer my question. Do you wish he were back -- do you wish he were back in Baghdad?
BEGALA: I'm glad he's gone, Bob. But I'm more sorry that those Americans are dead.
NOVAK: You're glad he's gone.
BEGALA: That's what we've done with
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: I admire Willie Nelson, who comes from my wife's hometown, Abbott, Texas, as a great country singer who was persecuted by federal tax collectors.
But he went over the top on Christmas Day, when he got so angry watching the TV news that he composed an anti-Bush screed called "Whatever Happened to Peace On Earth?" He'll sing it tomorrow at a benefit for presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich. The chorus: "Hell they wont lie to me, not on my own damn TV. But how much is a liar's word worth? And whatever happened to peace on Earth?"
I didn't sing that.
Willie, calling the president, any president, a liar, is over the top, even a past president who lied about sex.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: So it's OK to lie about a war, but not about sex?
Look, Willie Nelson is a great American. I love his entertainment. But I love his courage even more. He could sit there on his millions of dollars, as a rich Texan with a rich Texan in the White House. But he has the courage to stand up for those soldiers and for every American who wants a president that tells us the truth.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: And that's what we deserve.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: God bless Willie.
NOVAK: I remember when you said it was disrespectful to call Bill Clinton a liar.
BEGALA: I try not to use that word about George W. Bush. I try not to. But he begs for it, man.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, you're using it. You're using it right now.
BEGALA: I try not to.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: But, like we say in Texas, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.
NOVAK: All right, 2004 is there. And that means, things are heating up in the race for president.
On the Democrats' side of the race, all eyes are on Dr. Howard Dean. Can anybody stop the little guy from Vermont from getting the party nomination?
And later, who is in, who is out on the style scene? And why is James Carville part of this discussion?
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Get ahead of the CROSSFIRE. Sign up for CROSSFIRE's daily "Political Alert" e-mail. You'll get a preview of each day's show, plus an inside look at the day's political headlines. Just go to CNN.com/CROSSFIRE and sign up today.
Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to the live Washington audience, call 202-994-8CNN or e- mail us at CNN@gwu.edu. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
A just released CNN/"TIME" magazine poll shows Howard Dean is starting off the new year at the very top of the pack of nine Democratic candidates. But Dean's opponents say that the former Vermont governor would almost surely lose to President George W. Bush in a fall matchup.
So, is Howard Dean unstoppable or is he unelectable?
Joining us from the Big Apple to discuss is New York Democratic Congressman Anthony Weiner, who is a Wesley Clark supporter.
Congress Weiner, good to see you again, sir. Happy new year.
REP. ANTHONY WEINER (D), NEW YORK: Happy new year to you as well.
NOVAK: Congressman Weiner, we all know that your candidate, General Clark, is a rookie. He's made all the rookie mistakes that are made.
But I think the thing that hurts him so much more than anything else is a quote in September by his former commanding officer, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Hugh Shelton, a real soldier's soldier, one of Bill Clinton's favorite soldiers.
And Hugh Shelton this: "I will tell you, the reason he" -- that is General Clark -- came out of Europe early had to do with integrity and character issues, things that are very near and dear to my heart. Wes won't get my vote."
How do you explain that?
WEINER: Well, first of all, General Shelton's boss, Bill Clinton, disagreed with that.
But, more importantly, it isn't about one vote, General Shelton's vote. It's about who is going to be the person to take this battle to George Bush. Look, any of the Democratic nominees, on their worst day, is better than George Bush on his best day. But if we want to look at who has the best chance of beating President Bush, I want to see President Bush try to make national security and defense his defining issue when he's looking across the podium in a debate at General Clark. He's not going to be able to do it.
General Clark has shown he can raise the money to keep up with just about anyone in the field. And that's why I'm supporting him. But make no mistake about it. Any one of the nominees that emerges from the Democratic field would be preferable to George Bush.
NOVAK: I understand you feel that way, but I'd love to have you try to answer the question, because I've been trying to get the Clark supporters to answer it for months. What are these integrity and character issues? You must have looked into it, if you're supporting the man for president. And a man with the reputation of General Hugh Shelton said that. You must wonder, what in the world is eating him about his fellow officer?
WEINER: Well, you also have to wonder about General Shelton not answering that question himself. He's refused to, ever since he has made it. He's hiding under a desk somewhere, hoping that you never find him to ask that question in person. Get him on, on the show.
But he certainly is out of sync with just about everyone else who has worked with General Clark, who say that he's a true American hero. And I think that President Bush would also probably say that about General Clark, if pressed. BEGALA: Congressman Weiner, first, thanks for coming on. Good to see you again.
I want to ask you about that war. It's become the central issue in the Democratic primaries, that -- the vote to use force in Iraq. Now, you supported the use of force in Iraq. But your candidate, General Clark, has said, he would have never supported such a resolution. So, were you wrong, or was General Clark wrong about the most important issue in the election?
WEINER: Well, he and I came from a very similar position to this to begin with. We both thought we wanted to be supportive of President Bush. We wanted to be supportive of the commander in chief in negotiating to disarm Iraq. Came to a different conclusion about whether to vote yes on the resolution.
I don't begrudge him that. But I certainly want to tell you something. He's someone that has a record second to none on defense issues, is much smarter on national security issues than President Bush is, and someone I think would be a preferable president. And I have to tell you, our party was -- is and was split on the right thing to do on that vote. It was a very difficult call.
There's probably no vote that's tougher for a member of Congress. But our nominee has to be able to go into this debate with answers and solutions on a broad slew of national security and anti-terrorism matters. And if that's going to be the seminal issue of the campaign, I want General Clark as our nominee.
BEGALA: Well, let me press it. Is Howard Dean qualified to be commander in chief?
WEINER: Absolutely.
BEGALA: He is?
NOVAK: I want to ask you this. You know, you talk about electability and all that and who can win. In the Democratic Party, among registered Democrats, according to a poll just taken over the New Year's weekend by CNN/"TIME" -- let's put it on the screen -- Howard Dean, 46 percent, General Clark, 32 percent.
That -- that isn't even close. I mean, this is -- he's got -- this early, Governor Dean has almost half of the Republican -- of the Democratic votes. Congressman, that's going to be very hard to beat, isn't it?
WEINER: Well, there's no doubt about it. Dean is the front- runner and General Clark is the alternative.
I think that, right about now, Dean in many of the polls in Iowa, New Hampshire and other places has plateaued at about 40 percent, which, in a seven- or eight-way field, is pretty impressive. No doubt about it, Governor Dean is the front-runner. The question that I hope that Democratic primary voters, who, by the way, have not cast a single vote, I hope they focus on the question, who is the most electable in a general election, not who gets us fired up, not who do we send a message with.
Who do we put in the field that is going to win? Who is the best person to kind of put together this Clinton coalition of moderate Southern voters, liberal Eastern voters, and everyone in between? And I think General Clark is the perfect candidate for that.
BEGALA: Congressman, do you think it was fair for General Clark to attack Governor Dean for failing his draft physical about 30 years? Was that a fair attack?
WEINER: I -- I hadn't heard that, but if he -- and I don't know much about that.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Here's what he said. Let me fill you in on the background.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Let me fill you in on the background.
He -- General Clark pointed out that Governor Dean submitted to a physical and failed and so was not drafted and then went skiing in Aspen. He pointed out that, while Governor Dean was skiing, he was recovering from his war wounds in Vietnam. Do you think that that's a fair issue to raise, the fact that...
WEINER: I think that...
BEGALA: ... General Clark is a decorated military hero and Governor Dean did not serve?
WEINER: I think it's fair to point out that General Clark is a decorated war veteran a decorated patriotic American.
I don't believe that Governor Dean is not patriotic. I don't believe he's any less of an American. But, look, one of the things that they're doing is comparing biographies now. There's no doubt about it that some voters are going to be interested in hearing that, while one candidate was skiing, another candidate was risking his life in Vietnam.
NOVAK: Congressman, try to enlighten me on something, because I really always try to find the truth
(CROSSTALK)
WEINER: That's why I come on the show, to enlighten you, Mr. Novak.
NOVAK: Thank you.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: You know, it was just last year, General Clark was appearing at Republican fund-raisers in his home state of Arkansas, saying that there was a dream team that had been assembled of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld. And -- and he -- he told people he was a Republican.
What do you think suddenly turned him overnight into a Democrat and a Democratic presidential candidate? Do you think it might have been that the job, as far as the Republican nomination, beating George Bush for the Republican nomination was pretty tough, and that, if he wanted to be president, he had to be a Democrat?
WEINER: No, I think that he was voiced where a lot of Americans were. They were supportive of president. They wanted him to do well. They were rooting for him.
Then they watched after month after month, he drove the economy into the ground, bungled the recovery in Iraq, and essentially said where a lot of voters are going to be come November 2004, and said, listen, I was pulling for this guy, but he's let us down and I'm going to vote the other way.
NOVAK: Why is it, Congressman, that all you left-wing New Yorkers, like Charlie Rangel and you and several members of your delegation, you like this general who used to be a Republican? Can you explain that to me?
WEINER: Well, I don't know where to start correcting the question.
(LAUGHTER)
WEINER: First of all, I would probably say that General Clark is one of the more moderate voices in the primary, not the more liberal one.
And any -- anyone who is supporting General Clark, one of the reasons that's highest on their list is his electability. And many Democrats want to follow the model that Bill Clinton drew up for us in 1992, with the help of Paul Begala. And that is, try to figure out ways to get elected first. And then we can all find our ways to govern for the next eight years.
I think Democrats are unified in our desire to get rid of President Bush. General Clark is our ticket to doing that.
NOVAK: Congressman Weiner, thank you very much for being with us. A happy new year to you.
WEINER: Happy new year to you, too.
NOVAK: And right after the break, we'll be joined by a congressman who is a Howard Dean supporter. Can the doctor operate under all the political heat?
But first, a news update on those canceled flights and security concerns facing people who are trying to fly to the United States.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
We're talking about Howard Dean's prospects of remaining the Democratic front-runner.
In the CROSSFIRE now is Congressman James Moran, Democrat of Virginia. And he has endorsed Dr. Dean.
BEGALA: Congressman Moran, good to see you again. Thank you for joining us.
REP. JIM MORAN (D), VIRGINIA: Good to see you. Thank you.
BEGALA: A moment ago, your colleague, fellow Democrat, Congressman Anthony Weiner, supporting Wesley Clark, said one of the big issues for him is electability. He says his guy can beat President Bush and your guy can't.
And, indeed, let's take a look at a poll that was conducted recently in New Hampshire, the state where, of course, Governor Dean is winning.
MORAN: Is leading.
BEGALA: Overwhelmingly.
MORAN: Right.
BEGALA: And his campaign's strong and, frankly, has campaigned brilliantly.
MORAN: Right.
BEGALA: Despite all that exposure, look at this poll.
MORAN: I was just in New Hampshire last week.
BEGALA: Well, President Bush is pounding him in New Hampshire, 57 to 30. Bush crushes Dean. This is a state that was basically a tossup against Al Gore. Bush carried by 7,000 votes. What gives?
MORAN: Well, I think it's early to be focusing on the general election. And we're talking about different issues right now.
Howard Dean is going to take every issue to George Bush. That's why he's running. I do think that the problem with his opponents is, they're not taking the issues to George Bush. They're trying to undermine Howard Dean.
And they'd be far better served, both in the Democratic primary and as candidates, individually and collectively, if they would do what Howard Dean is doing, which is raising the issue that this Medicare bill is a horrible bill for our sickest and oldest seniors. These tax cuts have put our -- the next generation into $12 trillion of debt they'll never get out of, and that the going to war was done under false pretenses.
That's what the Democrats need to be focusing on, not trying to find distinctions between themselves and Howard Dean. The distinction ought to be between themselves and George Bush.
NOVAK: Congressman...
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Congressman, I want you to listen to a fellow Democrat who puts the question of electability in a little stronger terms than Congressman Weiner did. And that's Joe Lieberman, the senator from Connecticut who is running for president.
And let's listen to what he said just about a half-hour ago on "INSIDE POLITICS."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D-CT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Some of the things that -- people in New Hampshire are worried that some of the things that Howard Dean has said are going to be turned right back on him by George W. Bush and Karl Rove and make him unelectable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: And what Joe is saying that the things like, he doesn't think we're safer with Saddam Hussein captured; he doesn't know whether Osama bin Laden is guilty; he doesn't know whether his brother is alive or dead. There's just a lot of peculiar things that Dean has said. Doesn't that bother you?
MORAN: I could find peculiar things that every human being I know has said, including you, Bob.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
MORAN: You know, that's -- I don't think that's the issue.
The issue is, who is going to pick up the mantle and stand for the principles that we believe in as Democrats? And Joe is an example. I like Joe. Joe is a good friend. And I think he's a good Democrat. I think he'd be a better Democrat if he focused on distinguishing himself from George Bush, instead of from Howard Dean.
Joe was one of the earliest supporters, really of the Iraq war among Democrats. And I think a lot of Democrats were influenced by Joe's support. And I think Joe ought to be focusing on the things that he was disappointed in, in terms of George Bush's leadership with the Iraq war. BEGALA: Well, one of the issues you mentioned before when we said what issues is Dean going to take to President Bush. You mentioned Medicare first.
But let me ask you about that. It's emerged as an issue in the primaries. In 1995, I remember well -- and certainly you do -- you helped the Democrats in Congress. You bitterly opposed a Republican plan that would have cut $270 billion from Medicare.
MORAN: That's right.
BEGALA: Yet your candidate, Howard Dean, in 1995 told his hometown paper he fully subscribes -- his words, not mine -- to the notion of the Republican Medicare cuts and that he applauded them. Wasn't he wrong about Medicare? Weren't you right then and wasn't he wrong then?
MORAN: Well, it's sometimes, where you sit is where you stand. And he was a governor of a state that was fiscally conservative. He was a fiscally conservative governor.
And he felt that there are better ways of delivering health care. But he felt that everybody needs to have access to a health care system. So you have to put that in the context that he was struggling to get universal health care for all of the residents of Vermont. And he achieved that objective. He wasn't opposing the Medicare program
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: But, as a great defender of Medicare, you're not troubled by the fact that he sided, frankly, with the Republicans and Speaker Gingrich against you and President Clinton and Democrats in the biggest fight of -- one of the biggest fights of the whole Clinton presidency?
MORAN: You know, I think that sometimes, people's views evolve.
The fact is that he was a -- he was a governor and he recognized that there were some ways to -- I think he was addressing the Medicaid program, frankly, more than the Medicare program.
NOVAK: Jim Moran, I tried to get Congressman Weiner to inform me about some things.
MORAN: Yes.
NOVAK: And, frankly, he failed. I want you to do a better job.
(CROSSTALK)
MORAN: Set me up.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: No.
Howard Dean, on December 1, said, we've got to stop having the campaigns running this country based on abortion, guns, God, and gays. And a lot of people have commented that Howard may be the most secular candidate they've ever seen. He doesn't like to mention God.
And then, on December 27, two days after Christmas, there was a miracle.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: He said, interviewed by, I think -- I won't say who interviewed him. He said, "I think religion is important and spiritual values are very important, which what this election is really about." Is this -- was this a religious experience, like Saint Paul?
(LAUGHTER)
MORAN: Well, you're very clever in setting up this argument.
But you know at least as well as I do that the people who are most spiritual don't talk about their religion or their spirituality. They live it. I think he lives it.
NOVAK: He's a spiritual person?
MORAN: I think do think he's a spiritual person. I do.
NOVAK: I was told he switched from Episcopalian to Congregationalist because the parking spaces were better. Is that true?
(LAUGHTER)
MORAN: Well, you were told wrong. It's not -- you know, sometimes, we don't get accurate information. That's not -- but he doesn't talk about his religion.
(CROSSTALK)
MORAN: But I think he's lived a spiritual life. And that's why he's in public service, instead of making a lot more money as a doctor.
BEGALA: Well, briefly, let me ask you -- we're almost out of time.
MORAN: Yes.
BEGALA: You're a member of Democratic Leadership Council.
MORAN: Yes.
BEGALA: Was Governor Dean wrong when he called it the Republican wing of the Democratic Party? MORAN: It's the more moderate wing of the...
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
MORAN: Good question.
I think that the DLC has been reticent about showing the kinds of differences, stark differences, between George Bush's leadership and -- and the traditional core of the Democratic Party. They have been trying to move the Democratic Party to the middle. I think they've been successful. I think a lot of their ideas are very good. And I think, when Howard Dean is president, he's going to adopt a lot of the ideas of the Democratic Leadership Council. And they're all going to
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Congressman Jim Moran of Virginia, thank you for joining us right after the New Year's holiday.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Well done.
(APPLAUSE)
MORAN: See you, Paul.
BEGALA: Now, just ahead, my buddy James Carville made "The Washington Post"'s out list? Now we'll show you who is taking his -- James's place on the in list in Washington when we come back.
Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: "The Washington Post" has published its list of what's in and what's out for 2004. One item did catch people's eyes here at CROSSFIRE. According to "The Washington Post," our James Carville is out!
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: And Gollum, that sneaky, obsessive, misbehaving character from "The Lord of the Rings" movies is in.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: How can they tell the difference, Paul?
BEGALA: Oh, I don't know. You know, James is one of "People" magazine's sexiest men of the year.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: So I take "People" magazine over "The Washington Post" any day.
From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak.
Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
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