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CNN Crossfire
Can Anyone Catch Howard Dean?
Aired January 12, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: The CNN Election Express rolls into Iowa, where the race is getting close.
REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D-MO), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I really believe I'm going to win.
ANNOUNCER: Can anyone catch Howard Dean or the president?
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We need every Democrat and then a lot of independents to beat George Bush.
ANNOUNCER: Plus, the campaign from a woman's perspective -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the CNN Election Express in Des Moines, Iowa, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE and to the great state of Iowa. The presidential caucuses are just one week away. And the latest polls show the Democratic field is tighter than a Republican banker's wallet.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: And, of course, Howard Dean is still out front, but Congressman Dick Gephardt is within the margin of error in the latest poll. We'll talk with representatives of both campaigns, right after the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Well, there's some -- there's some good news and some bad news for the struggling John Edwards campaign. In the first column, Edwards won the endorsement of "The Des Moines Register," Iowa's biggest newspaper yesterday. As for bad news, "The New York Times" profiled Edwards this morning and revealed this: Despite making at least $38 million during his career as a trial lawyer, John Edwards did a total of no pro bono work or public interest work, none, nor did he take on any civil rights cases. They don't pay enough money.
John Edwards cares about the poor and oppressed, but, apparently, it's a fairly abstract concern. BEGALA: Well, you know, Tucker, I don't think that's really fair. I read that profile. And what Edwards told "The Post" -- told "The Times," that he didn't take those cases, he was illustrating a point, a time in his life where he was more self-centered. And he had a life-changing experience. He -- it propelled him into politics...
CARLSON: Sure.
BEGALA: ... into public service. And I think it's wonderful that the guy has changed. George W. Bush is 58.
CARLSON: Wait.
BEGALA: He's changed in many ways, but he still doesn't give a rip about the poor.
CARLSON: Wait. Wait. No, but that's -- I mean, that's a totally un -- ridiculous, unfair, and outrageous thing to say. Edwards admitted it was wrong. I have nothing against John Edwards personally.
But it's very striking that someone who claims to represent the poor, to have lived his life for the oppressed and the underdog, did no pro bono work. You're a lawyer. You know, most lawyers do pro bono work. He didn't. It's interesting.
BEGALA: Actually...
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: ... most lawyers don't.
But I -- I think it's telling that the guy has changed. He's grown. And I think it's an impressive testament to his character and honesty that he said that in the paper.
Well, in the early days of his presidency, fresh from a campaign in which he had promised us a humble foreign policy, George W. Bush was secretly planning to invade Iraq. This comes not from a member of the left-wing conspiracy, but rather from a senior member of Mr. Bush's National Security Council.
Former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill details President Bush's dishonesty about Iraq in a new book entitled "The Price of Loyalty." O'Neill also reveals that Mr. Bush was almost totally disengaged from economic policy and that Dick Cheney really calls the shots.
I suppose it's only a matter of time before Mr. Bush calls in airstrikes on Mr. O'Neill's home.
CARLSON: Well, the fact that there were a lot of intellectuals out there who, since the end of the first Gulf War, thought that Saddam Hussein ought to be removed from power is hardly news to anyone.
The former President Bill Clinton thought he out to be removed from power. The idea...
BEGALA: Not by force.
CARLSON: The idea -- well, we used force against Saddam Hussein. You were there. You remember in 1998, killed a lot of Iraqis doing it. The idea that this is somehow some secret conspiracy that's come to light is ludicrous. It was in public record.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: It was published in magazines.
BEGALA: No. It was a -- no. We wanted to have regime change, just like we do in communist China or North Korea or Cuba, but we did not plan an invasion. Apparently, Mr. Bush did without telling us. And that's an outrage.
CARLSON: He did not plan an invasion. That's ridiculous. Nobody's even alleged that.
BEGALA: Of course he did.
CARLSON: He did not plan an invasion.
BEGALA: That's what Mr. O'Neill says in his book.
CARLSON: It takes thousands of people to plan an invasion and he didn't say that in his book. But we'll get to the book in another show.
Wesley Clark spends his days attacking George W. Bush's policy in Iraq, particularly the administration's claims that there was a connection between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda terrorists. "This is a lie," Clark said. But he didn't always say that. According to an account in this morning's "New York Times" Clark said this just over a year ago -- quote -- "Certainly, there's a connection between Iraq and al Qaeda. It doesn't surprise me at all."
Well, of course, Wesley Clark was a Republican back then. What exactly does Wes Clark believe now, if anything? If you have any idea, e-mail us at CROSSFIRE@CNN.com. We'd love to know.
BEGALA: It's not a question of what he believes. It's who he did believe. He made a mistake. He believed President Bush. He believed Dick Cheney.
He believed the people who were misleading us, who knew or should have known from intelligence sources there was no connection to al Qaeda.
CARLSON: Actually, Paul -- actually, Paul...
BEGALA: And the president and the vice president told us that over and over again.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: Shame on Wes Clark for believing that.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: First of all, there's beyond dispute -- there's beyond dispute -- beyond dispute, a link established. But moreover, no evidence has arisen in that time to change his mind. What changed his mind was running for president. This is a guy whose core beliefs, if he has them, are very unclear.
BEGALA: Even Colin Powell now admits that there was no link.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: He does not.
BEGALA: Because there wasn't a link.
CARLSON: What are you talking about?
BEGALA: Colin Powell gave an interview last week
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Admits that there's no link between Iraq and al Qaeda?
BEGALA: Yes.
CARLSON: That's actually totally false. That's not what he said.
BEGALA: That's what he said, what General Powell said. Take it up with him.
Well, Louisiana, home of the national champion LSU Tigers, is also home of America's newest Democratic governor. Kathleen Blanco was sworn in as governor of the Bayou State today, confounding the hand-wringers and whiners, who pronounced Democrats dead in the South. Democrats now hold governor's mansions in such key Southern strongholds as Virginia, North Carolina and now Louisiana.
Look for George W. Bush to fight to hold the South, perhaps by returning to sucking up to the bigots at Bob Jones University or maybe bashing gay people, maybe even wrapping himself in the Confederate Flag, or why not all three. It should be a fun election, Tucker.
CARLSON: Well, that's totally unfair.
Accusing the Republicans of racism day after day after day, as you just, at some point is going to reach its limit as an effective tactic. I will say that Governor Blanco -- congratulations to her -- is one of the very few anti-abortion Democrats left in this country, Democrats who don't pledge allegiance to abortion. That says a lot. She wouldn't have gotten elected in that state had she been pro- choice. And I -- I mean, good for her. I would have voted for her. And I'm glad that... BEGALA: And she ran a terrific campaign. It was about education, though, and about jobs, which are two things...
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: ... the Democrats have more credibility on.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Democrats in Louisiana are very different than the rest of the Democrats in this country. And that tells you everything. So to even call her a Democrat is, of course, not exactly accurate.
BEGALA: She's not a Democrat?
CARLSON: In what sense? She would never -- she would not be allowed to speak to your national convention. I'll tell you that.
BEGALA: Oh, nonsense. Of course she will. I guarantee you she'll be speaking in Boston.
CARLSON: All right. We'll see.
The battle for Iowa is entering its final week. The two front- runners at this point appear to be Howard Dean and Dick Gephardt. But the rest of the Democrats are not yet giving up. We'll have the latest from the campaign trail next.
And later, the boys on the bus never traveled quite like this. We'll take you inside this one-of-a-kind campaign vehicle. You actually won't believe it. We barely did.
We'll be right back.
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to the live Washington audience, call 202-994-8CNN or e-mail us at CNN@gwu.edu. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
It's T-minus one week to the Iowa caucuses and the race is getting tighter. No surprise there. A Zogby survey of likely caucus- goers, taken Friday through Sunday, gives Howard Dean a three-point edge over Congressman Dick Gephardt, 26 percent to 23 percent. That's within the poll's margin of error. It could not be tighter.
In the CROSSFIRE now is Dean supporter and Texas Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee, along with Gephardt campaign adviser, senior campaign adviser, David Plouffe.
BEGALA: Thank you. Good to see both of you.
REP. SHEILA JACKSON LEE (D), TEXAS: Thank you. (CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Congresswoman, let me ask you, as a Dean supporter, an issue that came up in the debate yesterday, the Black and Brown debate, is affirmative action.
Howard Dean, on CNN back in 1995 said this: "We ought to look at affirmative action programs based not on race, but on class and opportunity to participate."
Do you share Governor Dean's view of moving away from affirmative action for African-Americans and other minorities?
JACKSON LEE: Well, I think what we need to look at is Governor Dean's commitment today, tomorrow and as president of the United States. And I think we also need to note a positive part of the debate last night was to say that all of those who were there committed to supporting whoever the ultimate candidate is to beat George Bush.
But as it relates to the president's prospective position, if he becomes president...
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON LEE: ... Governor Dean has been very clear on affirmative action. In his State of the Union -- state of the state address, he made it clear that he looks for a diverse work force and a diverse nation. He signed...
BEGALA: But that is wrong. As a Democrat, I'll say I think it's wrong to move away from affirmative action, like Governor Dean seems to do in that interview.
JACKSON LEE: And I don't think he has. I think it's very clear that he is a strong proponent of affirmative action. I think that it's very clear that his support for the University of Michigan case, as announced by the Supreme Court, he is clearly in support of that.
He signed a hate crimes legislation into law. So we're very comfortable. Many of us who are supporting him, we're very comfortable about his position on affirmative action.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: David, before you attack Howard Dean, as I suspect you're about to, I want to call your attention to a remarkable piece -- you're quoted in it -- that ran today in "The New York Times." It pulls back the cover on some of the diabolical things the Gephardt campaign has been doing, direct mail in particular, sending out pieces with pictures of Howard Dean looking like a monster, accusing -- accusing Mr. Gephardt's opponents of supporting -- quote -- "slave labor and sweatshops," attacking him in the most nasty way.
Why doesn't Dick Gephardt talk this way to Howard Dean's face? DAVID PLOUFFE, GEPHARDT CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISER: Well, we're trying to tell the truth about Howard Dean and his record, because he won't do the same about his record.
Trade is a very important issue in this race. Governor Dean said he was a strong supporter of NAFTA back in 1993. It's cost the people of Iowa over 10,000 jobs. And Governor Dean won't straight-talk about his record. On affirmative action, Governor...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... not coming from Dick Gephardt. Dick Gephardt is accusing his opponents of supporting slave labor and sweatshops. Why doesn't he use that phrasing in the debates?
PLOUFFE: Well, Governor Dean has supported policies, Senator Kerry has supported policies that resulted in sweatshops and slave labor. It's a very important issue in this race.
You know, affirmative action is just another issue where Governor Dean has engaged in double-talk. On affirmative action he said he was opposed to affirmative action based on race in 1995. Now he says he's not. He supported deep Republican cuts in Medicare in 1995 and has never really told us why. He said Medicare was the worst federal program ever and said it was one of the worst things that ever happened, and really won't explain why
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON LEE: You know, one thing I like about Governor Dean...
PLOUFFE: We will not beat George Bush with a candidate who engages in that kind of double-talk.
JACKSON LEE: One thing I like about Governor Dean is that he's not willing to engage in the politics of hostilities. That's all we're getting in these last couple of days. We know this is a tight race.
BEGALA: You think the best thing about him is that he's
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: .. part of his appeal, that he's a guy who gets pretty hostile with Bush. That's what we love, right?
JACKSON LEE: We know this is a tough race. The politics of hostilities against Democrats, we've got a challenge. And that is to become the president of the United States in November 2004.
It is clear that Governor Dean, one, signed hate crimes legislation in Vermont. It is clear Governor Dean created 41,000 jobs in Vermont. I can't say that any other candidates can suggest that they created any jobs. It is clear what his position is on trade policies, what the position is, that he would redesign NAFTA, be willing to repeal NAFTA. But it's also his position, as I understand it, that no new trade bill will be implemented without ensuring that worker's rights on both sides of the border, if you will, in the United States and in the country that is so designated as a trading partner would be protected, as well as human rights.
What we need to look at is, one, one's record. Yes, there are many times when you can say things. But look at the record. Governor Dean has produced for the citizens of Vermont. Governor Dean will produce for those in the United States. And those of us who are supporting him as African-Americans and Latinos, many in the United States Congress believe that he is a forward thinker and he will support affirmative action.
CARLSON: Now, David -- David, in 1988, Dick Gephardt won the Iowa caucuses. If he loses the Iowa caucuses next week, that's a pretty bad trend, isn't it, win in 1988, loss in 2004? That's the sign of a political career ending, isn't it?
PLOUFFE: Tucker, we're going to win the Iowa caucuses. This race is tied right now. Dick Gephardt has the momentum. Howard Dean is stalling.
We're going to finish in the top tier in New Hampshire, go on and win the most states and delegates on February 3, win the pivotal battleground of Michigan, and go on to the Democratic nomination. As voters in Iowa begin to hone in on this decision, they want to, A, pick the candidate who is best to defeat George Bush. Clearly, that is Dick Gephardt.
He can win in the battleground states in the Midwest. He's not compromised on issues like Medicare and trade, like Governor Dean is. He has also has got the boldest plans to grow this economy, the best health care plan in the field. And he's going to win this nomination and defeat George Bush next November.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm sorry to interrupt, but I want to come back to that.
I worked for Dick Gephardt here in Iowa in 1988. Our viewers should know that. I know that you do. But he traveled all over the state, went to all 99 counties. He won in Iowa and has spent almost all of his public career working very closely with Iowans like Tom Harkin. Yet Howard Dean got Harkin's support. He has been sucking up to the Iowa media for 16 years now, and yet the major newspapers have all endorsed either Dean, John Kerry or John Edwards.
That's got to be a bitter disappointment, that people who do know him quite well as a neighbor are not supporting him this time around.
PLOUFFE: Well, we have received endorsements, two newspapers in Storm Lake and Council Bluffs. And we always knew this was going to be a very tight race. There's no free pass in a contest like this.
We obviously have a deep reservoir of goodwill in this state, but we have to fight for every vote. We like very much where we are right now in this race. We have the strongest organization of any candidate in the state. In fact, the bulk of Tom Harkin's organization are the 95,000 union members that come from unions that have endorsed Dick Gephardt. So we feel we're going to win on January 19.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm sorry. Congresswoman, we're going to...
JACKSON LEE: If I just might say one thing...
BEGALA: ... have to go to a break.
JACKSON LEE: ... this race is going to be about winning new voters. If there's ever a candidate that can win new voters to the Democratic Party with good-sense politics for America, it's Howard Dean. Howard Dean's going to win. He's got the largest union support. He's going to win. But we are going to not take any vote for granted, not one.
BEGALA: Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee, from my hometown of Houston, David Plouffe, senior adviser for the Gephardt campaign, thank you both very much for joining us here in the CROSSFIRE.
JACKSON LEE: Thank you for having us.
BEGALA: Well, yesterday's Black and Brown debate had plenty of fireworks here in Iowa. And when we come back, we'll be joined by one presidential candidate who was not at all shy about hurling rhetorical bombs.
Also, Wolf Blitzer tells us what President Bush is hearing about his immigration plan during a visit to Mexico.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
BEGALA: Thank you, Wolf.
During last night's presidential debate here in Iowa, Reverend Al Sharpton attacked Governor Howard Dean's record on empowering minorities, which provoked a scolding from Carol Moseley Braun, who said the country cannot afford a racial screaming match.
Joining us now in the CROSSFIRE, former Senator and Ambassador Carol Moseley Braun.
It's good to see you again.
CAROL MOSELEY BRAUN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hi. Great to be here with you.
CARLSON: Ambassador, thanks for joining us. In the -- during the debate, it was notable that you went after Howard Dean and Dick Gephardt, two people who are obstacles, potentially, in the way of Howard Dean, leading some people to speculate that you've been coordinating with the Dean campaign. When was the last time you spoke to anyone from the Dean campaign?
MOSELEY BRAUN: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Tucker, first off, I'm running for president. Let's start with that.
CARLSON: Yes, ma'am. I know you are. But...
MOSELEY BRAUN: No. 2, No. 2, I know Howard Dean can take up for himself. No. 3, when I was being nice to John Kerry, they said I was cozying up with the Kerry campaign. So...
CARLSON: When was the last time you had contact with the Howard Dean campaign, with anybody on the Howard Dean campaign?
MOSELEY BRAUN: Last night. We're all staying in the same hotel here in Iowa.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: I mean -- I mean in private.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It's a conspiracy.
(CROSSTALK)
MOSELEY BRAUN: Last night. We're all staying -- what do you mean? I'm running for president.
CARLSON: I'm saying, in the event you don't win, would you keep an open mind...
MOSELEY BRAUN: Listen...
CARLSON: ..accept a job in a Dean administration?
MOSELEY BRAUN: Listen, all Democrats are going to be united behind whoever our nominee is to get a change of the -- at the White House. We're all going to be there.
And my guess is that there's a lot of Democratic talent out here that will be willing to serve in a Dean or a Kerry or a Gephardt or a Moseley Braun administration. So, I'm not, you know, speculating out and just kind of conceding to Howard Dean this race, when the voters haven't spoken yet, when the race hasn't really firmed up yet. So it's kind of early.
BEGALA: Well, let me ask you
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... on the issues, then, because I...
MOSELEY BRAUN: It's like counting the chickens even before the chickens, you know...
BEGALA: I was interested that you did. You criticized John Edwards. You criticized Dick Gephardt. You criticized Reverend Sharpton last night, but -- but not Governor Dean.
And as -- I'm somebody, as a white boy from a small town in Texas, who benefited greatly from affirmative action, because I went to a school that was integrated and I went to a university that was diverse. And I learned a lot from that. Well, Governor Dean called in an interview with CNN for repealing affirmative action in 1995. I wonder why you didn't call him on the carpet for that?
MOSELEY BRAUN: Well, because, as I said last night, we can't afford a screaming match. That's not the point. We have to move forward and create policies that will bring us together and help us solve the problems of health care, of education, of creating jobs for everybody.
I take second position to no one in this country on -- on advocacy for -- for African-Americans, for women, for Hispanics, for racial and ethnic minorities, back to the days in the state legislature, when I sued my own party. You'll like that part, Tucker.
(LAUGHTER)
MOSELEY BRAUN: I sued the Democratic Party for...
CARLSON: Well, do it again!
MOSELEY BRAUN: ... discriminating against blacks and Hispanics, and I won.
BEGALA: So, would you support, in Governor Dean's words, looking at affirmative action programs based not on race, but on class? Would you support that?
MOSELEY BRAUN: Well, class is an issue, but race is still the primary issue in the whole question of affirmative action.
And there are people who have started talking...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: So why not raise that in the debate last night?
MOSELEY BRAUN: There are people who have started talking about reparations as a conversation race, because we do need to have an honest conversation about race in this country, so that we can move on.
I mean, that's where we have to get to. And I just don't think it's real constructive or productive to just keep lobbing racial epithets at each other and not moving forward.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And yet, if there's one thing Democrats are good at, it's counting by race, as you know. I mean, let's keep track of the progress of African-Americans. So I'm surprised...
MOSELEY BRAUN: Oh, Tucker.
CARLSON: Wait. Hold on.
I'm surprised, Ambassador, that you're not bothered at all by the fact that Governor Dean had not a single minority Cabinet member.
MOSELEY BRAUN: Tucker, you didn't hear me...
CARLSON: That doesn't bother you?
MOSELEY BRAUN: You didn't hear me say I'm not bothered at all. Of course, we want to have diversity.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Then what's his problem?
(CROSSTALK)
MOSELEY BRAUN: Let me finish. Let me finish.
Because it's good for everybody. But you can't sit here and tell me that Republicans are not guilty of playing the old race card and the old wedge issue and divisionary politics.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Democrats are officially for favoring people based on their race.
MOSELEY BRAUN: No, that's not so, Tucker.
CARLSON: Of course it is. You just said it a second ago.
MOSELEY BRAUN: What are you doing, Tucker?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's literally true. I don't -- it's not a controversial statement.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Let me ask you about a pretty different shift in style last night.
MOSELEY BRAUN: Yes.
BEGALA: You were sort of scolding the men. You're the only woman running in either party. And I have to say, as somebody who used to coach politicians for a living, you're the only one who ever smiles. And you light up the room when you do it.
MOSELEY BRAUN: Oh, thank you. Thank you.
BEGALA: Among your competitors, do any of them have that sort of optimism? Or do -- they all, to me sometimes, look they like suck the same lemon. I mean, what's the matter with these guys?
MOSELEY BRAUN: You know, I don't talk about other people's campaigns. I kind of got a little testy last night. I got -- I'm allergic to lies. So when they start
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Who was lying?
MOSELEY BRAUN: Oh, we're not going there again. I did my...
BEGALA: Oh, come on.
MOSELEY BRAUN: I did my piece last night.
But the fact of the matter is that I just -- you know, the emotion, and we're all working on fumes at this point. It's been -- it's a campaign for president, so everybody is a little tired. And I think, just being in the room, that I just responded spontaneously to something that was -- that concerned me.
CARLSON: OK.
Ambassador Carol Moseley Braun of Illinois, thank you very much for joining us. Good luck in the D.C. primary tomorrow. We'll be watching.
MOSELEY BRAUN: Well, that's -- thank you. I support statehood for D.C.
CARLSON: All right.
MOSELEY BRAUN: Good luck with that.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, you won't find Shirley Partridge behind the wheel of this bus. There is no heat. There is no toilet, but who says they're not having fun?
We'll explain when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back. Well, the CNN Election Express is not the only magic bus now touring the highways of Iowa. Iowa voters may think they're having a flashback when they see supporters of the Dennis-Kucinich-for- president campaign touring the state in a converted 1976 school bus. It comes complete with a crew of 14, including a bus mama, who makes certain everyone is comfortable and warm. There is also a vibe master, who make certain there are always positive vibrations. We need one of those. There's no toilet and there's no heat.
But they do have cooking facilities. They eat vegetarian, not vegan, like their candidate. The bus runs on biodiesel, which, we're told, makes riding smell like a cross between french fries and diesel oil. Yum.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: So, if they run out of gas, can they, like, go to Taco Bell and get a cheese and bean burrito? Is that...
CARLSON: So there's always something to eat. I'm really taken with this idea of a vibe master.
BEGALA: A vibe master?
CARLSON: We do have a bathroom. We do
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: We need one for the
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: We have no vibe master on our bus.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Every time Dennis Kucinich comes and joins us -- and I hope he will later again today -- I think, you know, he could be our vibe master.
BEGALA: Although we still carry the vibes in this bus of the great Hank Williams Jr., one of the great losers of all time, probably passed out drunk in that bus more times than we can count. But we've cleaned it up a little.
CARLSON: Our bus still has an upholstered ceiling and it still smells like Jack Daniel's. The vibes are already good.
BEGALA: But we've got the vibes going, too.
From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
And join us again tomorrow for another Iowa-bound edition of CROSSFIRE. "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now. Have a great night.
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Aired January 12, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: The CNN Election Express rolls into Iowa, where the race is getting close.
REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D-MO), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I really believe I'm going to win.
ANNOUNCER: Can anyone catch Howard Dean or the president?
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We need every Democrat and then a lot of independents to beat George Bush.
ANNOUNCER: Plus, the campaign from a woman's perspective -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the CNN Election Express in Des Moines, Iowa, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE and to the great state of Iowa. The presidential caucuses are just one week away. And the latest polls show the Democratic field is tighter than a Republican banker's wallet.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: And, of course, Howard Dean is still out front, but Congressman Dick Gephardt is within the margin of error in the latest poll. We'll talk with representatives of both campaigns, right after the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Well, there's some -- there's some good news and some bad news for the struggling John Edwards campaign. In the first column, Edwards won the endorsement of "The Des Moines Register," Iowa's biggest newspaper yesterday. As for bad news, "The New York Times" profiled Edwards this morning and revealed this: Despite making at least $38 million during his career as a trial lawyer, John Edwards did a total of no pro bono work or public interest work, none, nor did he take on any civil rights cases. They don't pay enough money.
John Edwards cares about the poor and oppressed, but, apparently, it's a fairly abstract concern. BEGALA: Well, you know, Tucker, I don't think that's really fair. I read that profile. And what Edwards told "The Post" -- told "The Times," that he didn't take those cases, he was illustrating a point, a time in his life where he was more self-centered. And he had a life-changing experience. He -- it propelled him into politics...
CARLSON: Sure.
BEGALA: ... into public service. And I think it's wonderful that the guy has changed. George W. Bush is 58.
CARLSON: Wait.
BEGALA: He's changed in many ways, but he still doesn't give a rip about the poor.
CARLSON: Wait. Wait. No, but that's -- I mean, that's a totally un -- ridiculous, unfair, and outrageous thing to say. Edwards admitted it was wrong. I have nothing against John Edwards personally.
But it's very striking that someone who claims to represent the poor, to have lived his life for the oppressed and the underdog, did no pro bono work. You're a lawyer. You know, most lawyers do pro bono work. He didn't. It's interesting.
BEGALA: Actually...
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: ... most lawyers don't.
But I -- I think it's telling that the guy has changed. He's grown. And I think it's an impressive testament to his character and honesty that he said that in the paper.
Well, in the early days of his presidency, fresh from a campaign in which he had promised us a humble foreign policy, George W. Bush was secretly planning to invade Iraq. This comes not from a member of the left-wing conspiracy, but rather from a senior member of Mr. Bush's National Security Council.
Former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill details President Bush's dishonesty about Iraq in a new book entitled "The Price of Loyalty." O'Neill also reveals that Mr. Bush was almost totally disengaged from economic policy and that Dick Cheney really calls the shots.
I suppose it's only a matter of time before Mr. Bush calls in airstrikes on Mr. O'Neill's home.
CARLSON: Well, the fact that there were a lot of intellectuals out there who, since the end of the first Gulf War, thought that Saddam Hussein ought to be removed from power is hardly news to anyone.
The former President Bill Clinton thought he out to be removed from power. The idea...
BEGALA: Not by force.
CARLSON: The idea -- well, we used force against Saddam Hussein. You were there. You remember in 1998, killed a lot of Iraqis doing it. The idea that this is somehow some secret conspiracy that's come to light is ludicrous. It was in public record.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: It was published in magazines.
BEGALA: No. It was a -- no. We wanted to have regime change, just like we do in communist China or North Korea or Cuba, but we did not plan an invasion. Apparently, Mr. Bush did without telling us. And that's an outrage.
CARLSON: He did not plan an invasion. That's ridiculous. Nobody's even alleged that.
BEGALA: Of course he did.
CARLSON: He did not plan an invasion.
BEGALA: That's what Mr. O'Neill says in his book.
CARLSON: It takes thousands of people to plan an invasion and he didn't say that in his book. But we'll get to the book in another show.
Wesley Clark spends his days attacking George W. Bush's policy in Iraq, particularly the administration's claims that there was a connection between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda terrorists. "This is a lie," Clark said. But he didn't always say that. According to an account in this morning's "New York Times" Clark said this just over a year ago -- quote -- "Certainly, there's a connection between Iraq and al Qaeda. It doesn't surprise me at all."
Well, of course, Wesley Clark was a Republican back then. What exactly does Wes Clark believe now, if anything? If you have any idea, e-mail us at CROSSFIRE@CNN.com. We'd love to know.
BEGALA: It's not a question of what he believes. It's who he did believe. He made a mistake. He believed President Bush. He believed Dick Cheney.
He believed the people who were misleading us, who knew or should have known from intelligence sources there was no connection to al Qaeda.
CARLSON: Actually, Paul -- actually, Paul...
BEGALA: And the president and the vice president told us that over and over again.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: Shame on Wes Clark for believing that.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: First of all, there's beyond dispute -- there's beyond dispute -- beyond dispute, a link established. But moreover, no evidence has arisen in that time to change his mind. What changed his mind was running for president. This is a guy whose core beliefs, if he has them, are very unclear.
BEGALA: Even Colin Powell now admits that there was no link.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: He does not.
BEGALA: Because there wasn't a link.
CARLSON: What are you talking about?
BEGALA: Colin Powell gave an interview last week
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Admits that there's no link between Iraq and al Qaeda?
BEGALA: Yes.
CARLSON: That's actually totally false. That's not what he said.
BEGALA: That's what he said, what General Powell said. Take it up with him.
Well, Louisiana, home of the national champion LSU Tigers, is also home of America's newest Democratic governor. Kathleen Blanco was sworn in as governor of the Bayou State today, confounding the hand-wringers and whiners, who pronounced Democrats dead in the South. Democrats now hold governor's mansions in such key Southern strongholds as Virginia, North Carolina and now Louisiana.
Look for George W. Bush to fight to hold the South, perhaps by returning to sucking up to the bigots at Bob Jones University or maybe bashing gay people, maybe even wrapping himself in the Confederate Flag, or why not all three. It should be a fun election, Tucker.
CARLSON: Well, that's totally unfair.
Accusing the Republicans of racism day after day after day, as you just, at some point is going to reach its limit as an effective tactic. I will say that Governor Blanco -- congratulations to her -- is one of the very few anti-abortion Democrats left in this country, Democrats who don't pledge allegiance to abortion. That says a lot. She wouldn't have gotten elected in that state had she been pro- choice. And I -- I mean, good for her. I would have voted for her. And I'm glad that... BEGALA: And she ran a terrific campaign. It was about education, though, and about jobs, which are two things...
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: ... the Democrats have more credibility on.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Democrats in Louisiana are very different than the rest of the Democrats in this country. And that tells you everything. So to even call her a Democrat is, of course, not exactly accurate.
BEGALA: She's not a Democrat?
CARLSON: In what sense? She would never -- she would not be allowed to speak to your national convention. I'll tell you that.
BEGALA: Oh, nonsense. Of course she will. I guarantee you she'll be speaking in Boston.
CARLSON: All right. We'll see.
The battle for Iowa is entering its final week. The two front- runners at this point appear to be Howard Dean and Dick Gephardt. But the rest of the Democrats are not yet giving up. We'll have the latest from the campaign trail next.
And later, the boys on the bus never traveled quite like this. We'll take you inside this one-of-a-kind campaign vehicle. You actually won't believe it. We barely did.
We'll be right back.
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to the live Washington audience, call 202-994-8CNN or e-mail us at CNN@gwu.edu. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
It's T-minus one week to the Iowa caucuses and the race is getting tighter. No surprise there. A Zogby survey of likely caucus- goers, taken Friday through Sunday, gives Howard Dean a three-point edge over Congressman Dick Gephardt, 26 percent to 23 percent. That's within the poll's margin of error. It could not be tighter.
In the CROSSFIRE now is Dean supporter and Texas Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee, along with Gephardt campaign adviser, senior campaign adviser, David Plouffe.
BEGALA: Thank you. Good to see both of you.
REP. SHEILA JACKSON LEE (D), TEXAS: Thank you. (CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Congresswoman, let me ask you, as a Dean supporter, an issue that came up in the debate yesterday, the Black and Brown debate, is affirmative action.
Howard Dean, on CNN back in 1995 said this: "We ought to look at affirmative action programs based not on race, but on class and opportunity to participate."
Do you share Governor Dean's view of moving away from affirmative action for African-Americans and other minorities?
JACKSON LEE: Well, I think what we need to look at is Governor Dean's commitment today, tomorrow and as president of the United States. And I think we also need to note a positive part of the debate last night was to say that all of those who were there committed to supporting whoever the ultimate candidate is to beat George Bush.
But as it relates to the president's prospective position, if he becomes president...
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON LEE: ... Governor Dean has been very clear on affirmative action. In his State of the Union -- state of the state address, he made it clear that he looks for a diverse work force and a diverse nation. He signed...
BEGALA: But that is wrong. As a Democrat, I'll say I think it's wrong to move away from affirmative action, like Governor Dean seems to do in that interview.
JACKSON LEE: And I don't think he has. I think it's very clear that he is a strong proponent of affirmative action. I think that it's very clear that his support for the University of Michigan case, as announced by the Supreme Court, he is clearly in support of that.
He signed a hate crimes legislation into law. So we're very comfortable. Many of us who are supporting him, we're very comfortable about his position on affirmative action.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: David, before you attack Howard Dean, as I suspect you're about to, I want to call your attention to a remarkable piece -- you're quoted in it -- that ran today in "The New York Times." It pulls back the cover on some of the diabolical things the Gephardt campaign has been doing, direct mail in particular, sending out pieces with pictures of Howard Dean looking like a monster, accusing -- accusing Mr. Gephardt's opponents of supporting -- quote -- "slave labor and sweatshops," attacking him in the most nasty way.
Why doesn't Dick Gephardt talk this way to Howard Dean's face? DAVID PLOUFFE, GEPHARDT CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISER: Well, we're trying to tell the truth about Howard Dean and his record, because he won't do the same about his record.
Trade is a very important issue in this race. Governor Dean said he was a strong supporter of NAFTA back in 1993. It's cost the people of Iowa over 10,000 jobs. And Governor Dean won't straight-talk about his record. On affirmative action, Governor...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... not coming from Dick Gephardt. Dick Gephardt is accusing his opponents of supporting slave labor and sweatshops. Why doesn't he use that phrasing in the debates?
PLOUFFE: Well, Governor Dean has supported policies, Senator Kerry has supported policies that resulted in sweatshops and slave labor. It's a very important issue in this race.
You know, affirmative action is just another issue where Governor Dean has engaged in double-talk. On affirmative action he said he was opposed to affirmative action based on race in 1995. Now he says he's not. He supported deep Republican cuts in Medicare in 1995 and has never really told us why. He said Medicare was the worst federal program ever and said it was one of the worst things that ever happened, and really won't explain why
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON LEE: You know, one thing I like about Governor Dean...
PLOUFFE: We will not beat George Bush with a candidate who engages in that kind of double-talk.
JACKSON LEE: One thing I like about Governor Dean is that he's not willing to engage in the politics of hostilities. That's all we're getting in these last couple of days. We know this is a tight race.
BEGALA: You think the best thing about him is that he's
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: .. part of his appeal, that he's a guy who gets pretty hostile with Bush. That's what we love, right?
JACKSON LEE: We know this is a tough race. The politics of hostilities against Democrats, we've got a challenge. And that is to become the president of the United States in November 2004.
It is clear that Governor Dean, one, signed hate crimes legislation in Vermont. It is clear Governor Dean created 41,000 jobs in Vermont. I can't say that any other candidates can suggest that they created any jobs. It is clear what his position is on trade policies, what the position is, that he would redesign NAFTA, be willing to repeal NAFTA. But it's also his position, as I understand it, that no new trade bill will be implemented without ensuring that worker's rights on both sides of the border, if you will, in the United States and in the country that is so designated as a trading partner would be protected, as well as human rights.
What we need to look at is, one, one's record. Yes, there are many times when you can say things. But look at the record. Governor Dean has produced for the citizens of Vermont. Governor Dean will produce for those in the United States. And those of us who are supporting him as African-Americans and Latinos, many in the United States Congress believe that he is a forward thinker and he will support affirmative action.
CARLSON: Now, David -- David, in 1988, Dick Gephardt won the Iowa caucuses. If he loses the Iowa caucuses next week, that's a pretty bad trend, isn't it, win in 1988, loss in 2004? That's the sign of a political career ending, isn't it?
PLOUFFE: Tucker, we're going to win the Iowa caucuses. This race is tied right now. Dick Gephardt has the momentum. Howard Dean is stalling.
We're going to finish in the top tier in New Hampshire, go on and win the most states and delegates on February 3, win the pivotal battleground of Michigan, and go on to the Democratic nomination. As voters in Iowa begin to hone in on this decision, they want to, A, pick the candidate who is best to defeat George Bush. Clearly, that is Dick Gephardt.
He can win in the battleground states in the Midwest. He's not compromised on issues like Medicare and trade, like Governor Dean is. He has also has got the boldest plans to grow this economy, the best health care plan in the field. And he's going to win this nomination and defeat George Bush next November.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm sorry to interrupt, but I want to come back to that.
I worked for Dick Gephardt here in Iowa in 1988. Our viewers should know that. I know that you do. But he traveled all over the state, went to all 99 counties. He won in Iowa and has spent almost all of his public career working very closely with Iowans like Tom Harkin. Yet Howard Dean got Harkin's support. He has been sucking up to the Iowa media for 16 years now, and yet the major newspapers have all endorsed either Dean, John Kerry or John Edwards.
That's got to be a bitter disappointment, that people who do know him quite well as a neighbor are not supporting him this time around.
PLOUFFE: Well, we have received endorsements, two newspapers in Storm Lake and Council Bluffs. And we always knew this was going to be a very tight race. There's no free pass in a contest like this.
We obviously have a deep reservoir of goodwill in this state, but we have to fight for every vote. We like very much where we are right now in this race. We have the strongest organization of any candidate in the state. In fact, the bulk of Tom Harkin's organization are the 95,000 union members that come from unions that have endorsed Dick Gephardt. So we feel we're going to win on January 19.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm sorry. Congresswoman, we're going to...
JACKSON LEE: If I just might say one thing...
BEGALA: ... have to go to a break.
JACKSON LEE: ... this race is going to be about winning new voters. If there's ever a candidate that can win new voters to the Democratic Party with good-sense politics for America, it's Howard Dean. Howard Dean's going to win. He's got the largest union support. He's going to win. But we are going to not take any vote for granted, not one.
BEGALA: Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee, from my hometown of Houston, David Plouffe, senior adviser for the Gephardt campaign, thank you both very much for joining us here in the CROSSFIRE.
JACKSON LEE: Thank you for having us.
BEGALA: Well, yesterday's Black and Brown debate had plenty of fireworks here in Iowa. And when we come back, we'll be joined by one presidential candidate who was not at all shy about hurling rhetorical bombs.
Also, Wolf Blitzer tells us what President Bush is hearing about his immigration plan during a visit to Mexico.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
BEGALA: Thank you, Wolf.
During last night's presidential debate here in Iowa, Reverend Al Sharpton attacked Governor Howard Dean's record on empowering minorities, which provoked a scolding from Carol Moseley Braun, who said the country cannot afford a racial screaming match.
Joining us now in the CROSSFIRE, former Senator and Ambassador Carol Moseley Braun.
It's good to see you again.
CAROL MOSELEY BRAUN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hi. Great to be here with you.
CARLSON: Ambassador, thanks for joining us. In the -- during the debate, it was notable that you went after Howard Dean and Dick Gephardt, two people who are obstacles, potentially, in the way of Howard Dean, leading some people to speculate that you've been coordinating with the Dean campaign. When was the last time you spoke to anyone from the Dean campaign?
MOSELEY BRAUN: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Tucker, first off, I'm running for president. Let's start with that.
CARLSON: Yes, ma'am. I know you are. But...
MOSELEY BRAUN: No. 2, No. 2, I know Howard Dean can take up for himself. No. 3, when I was being nice to John Kerry, they said I was cozying up with the Kerry campaign. So...
CARLSON: When was the last time you had contact with the Howard Dean campaign, with anybody on the Howard Dean campaign?
MOSELEY BRAUN: Last night. We're all staying in the same hotel here in Iowa.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: I mean -- I mean in private.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It's a conspiracy.
(CROSSTALK)
MOSELEY BRAUN: Last night. We're all staying -- what do you mean? I'm running for president.
CARLSON: I'm saying, in the event you don't win, would you keep an open mind...
MOSELEY BRAUN: Listen...
CARLSON: ..accept a job in a Dean administration?
MOSELEY BRAUN: Listen, all Democrats are going to be united behind whoever our nominee is to get a change of the -- at the White House. We're all going to be there.
And my guess is that there's a lot of Democratic talent out here that will be willing to serve in a Dean or a Kerry or a Gephardt or a Moseley Braun administration. So, I'm not, you know, speculating out and just kind of conceding to Howard Dean this race, when the voters haven't spoken yet, when the race hasn't really firmed up yet. So it's kind of early.
BEGALA: Well, let me ask you
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... on the issues, then, because I...
MOSELEY BRAUN: It's like counting the chickens even before the chickens, you know...
BEGALA: I was interested that you did. You criticized John Edwards. You criticized Dick Gephardt. You criticized Reverend Sharpton last night, but -- but not Governor Dean.
And as -- I'm somebody, as a white boy from a small town in Texas, who benefited greatly from affirmative action, because I went to a school that was integrated and I went to a university that was diverse. And I learned a lot from that. Well, Governor Dean called in an interview with CNN for repealing affirmative action in 1995. I wonder why you didn't call him on the carpet for that?
MOSELEY BRAUN: Well, because, as I said last night, we can't afford a screaming match. That's not the point. We have to move forward and create policies that will bring us together and help us solve the problems of health care, of education, of creating jobs for everybody.
I take second position to no one in this country on -- on advocacy for -- for African-Americans, for women, for Hispanics, for racial and ethnic minorities, back to the days in the state legislature, when I sued my own party. You'll like that part, Tucker.
(LAUGHTER)
MOSELEY BRAUN: I sued the Democratic Party for...
CARLSON: Well, do it again!
MOSELEY BRAUN: ... discriminating against blacks and Hispanics, and I won.
BEGALA: So, would you support, in Governor Dean's words, looking at affirmative action programs based not on race, but on class? Would you support that?
MOSELEY BRAUN: Well, class is an issue, but race is still the primary issue in the whole question of affirmative action.
And there are people who have started talking...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: So why not raise that in the debate last night?
MOSELEY BRAUN: There are people who have started talking about reparations as a conversation race, because we do need to have an honest conversation about race in this country, so that we can move on.
I mean, that's where we have to get to. And I just don't think it's real constructive or productive to just keep lobbing racial epithets at each other and not moving forward.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And yet, if there's one thing Democrats are good at, it's counting by race, as you know. I mean, let's keep track of the progress of African-Americans. So I'm surprised...
MOSELEY BRAUN: Oh, Tucker.
CARLSON: Wait. Hold on.
I'm surprised, Ambassador, that you're not bothered at all by the fact that Governor Dean had not a single minority Cabinet member.
MOSELEY BRAUN: Tucker, you didn't hear me...
CARLSON: That doesn't bother you?
MOSELEY BRAUN: You didn't hear me say I'm not bothered at all. Of course, we want to have diversity.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Then what's his problem?
(CROSSTALK)
MOSELEY BRAUN: Let me finish. Let me finish.
Because it's good for everybody. But you can't sit here and tell me that Republicans are not guilty of playing the old race card and the old wedge issue and divisionary politics.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Democrats are officially for favoring people based on their race.
MOSELEY BRAUN: No, that's not so, Tucker.
CARLSON: Of course it is. You just said it a second ago.
MOSELEY BRAUN: What are you doing, Tucker?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's literally true. I don't -- it's not a controversial statement.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Let me ask you about a pretty different shift in style last night.
MOSELEY BRAUN: Yes.
BEGALA: You were sort of scolding the men. You're the only woman running in either party. And I have to say, as somebody who used to coach politicians for a living, you're the only one who ever smiles. And you light up the room when you do it.
MOSELEY BRAUN: Oh, thank you. Thank you.
BEGALA: Among your competitors, do any of them have that sort of optimism? Or do -- they all, to me sometimes, look they like suck the same lemon. I mean, what's the matter with these guys?
MOSELEY BRAUN: You know, I don't talk about other people's campaigns. I kind of got a little testy last night. I got -- I'm allergic to lies. So when they start
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Who was lying?
MOSELEY BRAUN: Oh, we're not going there again. I did my...
BEGALA: Oh, come on.
MOSELEY BRAUN: I did my piece last night.
But the fact of the matter is that I just -- you know, the emotion, and we're all working on fumes at this point. It's been -- it's a campaign for president, so everybody is a little tired. And I think, just being in the room, that I just responded spontaneously to something that was -- that concerned me.
CARLSON: OK.
Ambassador Carol Moseley Braun of Illinois, thank you very much for joining us. Good luck in the D.C. primary tomorrow. We'll be watching.
MOSELEY BRAUN: Well, that's -- thank you. I support statehood for D.C.
CARLSON: All right.
MOSELEY BRAUN: Good luck with that.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, you won't find Shirley Partridge behind the wheel of this bus. There is no heat. There is no toilet, but who says they're not having fun?
We'll explain when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back. Well, the CNN Election Express is not the only magic bus now touring the highways of Iowa. Iowa voters may think they're having a flashback when they see supporters of the Dennis-Kucinich-for- president campaign touring the state in a converted 1976 school bus. It comes complete with a crew of 14, including a bus mama, who makes certain everyone is comfortable and warm. There is also a vibe master, who make certain there are always positive vibrations. We need one of those. There's no toilet and there's no heat.
But they do have cooking facilities. They eat vegetarian, not vegan, like their candidate. The bus runs on biodiesel, which, we're told, makes riding smell like a cross between french fries and diesel oil. Yum.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: So, if they run out of gas, can they, like, go to Taco Bell and get a cheese and bean burrito? Is that...
CARLSON: So there's always something to eat. I'm really taken with this idea of a vibe master.
BEGALA: A vibe master?
CARLSON: We do have a bathroom. We do
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: We need one for the
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: We have no vibe master on our bus.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Every time Dennis Kucinich comes and joins us -- and I hope he will later again today -- I think, you know, he could be our vibe master.
BEGALA: Although we still carry the vibes in this bus of the great Hank Williams Jr., one of the great losers of all time, probably passed out drunk in that bus more times than we can count. But we've cleaned it up a little.
CARLSON: Our bus still has an upholstered ceiling and it still smells like Jack Daniel's. The vibes are already good.
BEGALA: But we've got the vibes going, too.
From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
And join us again tomorrow for another Iowa-bound edition of CROSSFIRE. "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now. Have a great night.
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