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CNN Crossfire
Hollywood Comes to Iowa
Aired January 14, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: Look who's getting help from Hollywood.
MARTIN SHEEN, ACTOR: I am honored to come here today and declare next Monday, January 19, Howard Dean day in Iowa.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Tucker Carlson sits down with Martin Sheen and Rob Reiner.
ROB REINER, ACTOR/DIRECTOR: Howard Dean has really energized Democrats like no other candidate we've seen.
ANNOUNCER: Plus, Dick Gephardt on the attack.
REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D-MO), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I may not be the flashiest guy in the race, but I'll put my ideas up against anyone's.
ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the CNN Election Express in Iowa City, Iowa, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody and welcome to CROSSFIRE.
We are in the heart of America's heartland, where, as my dad would say, it's colder than a well digger's rear end. Well, we're on the campus of the University of Iowa in Iowa City, Iowa, on the banks of the Iowa River.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: That's a lot of Iowa. As you can tell, we are a long way from Hollywood, but a couple of Hollywood entertainers are here to stump for Howard Dean. We'll hear from Rob Reiner and Martin Sheen in a moment.
But first, the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Well, Dick Gephardt has represented a congressional district not far from Iowa for most of his adult life. In 1988, he won the Iowa caucuses. For these and other reasons, Gephardt had every reason to think he'd win the state this year. And then came Howard Dean. The Vermont fireplug came from nowhere, shouting louder than anyone else. Suddenly, he displaced Gephardt for first place in the polls. The lesson learned? The angriest man wins.
Gephardt is trying hard to become that man. In a speech here in Iowa this morning, Gephardt accused Dean of being a shameless phony, a political chameleon who secretly does the bidding of Republicans. Worst of all, he charged that Dean isn't really angry -- quote -- "There is no room for the cynical politics of manufactured anger," Gephardt growled.
Dean, meanwhile, angrily defended his anger. Who is genuinely dyspeptic and who is just faking? That's the question in the fight between Dean and Dick Gephardt. And may the most unpleasant man win.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: This is what politics ought to be. It's passionate. And you seen anger. I see passion. Gephardt has his ideas. He's fighting for them.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Governor Dean has his and he's fighting for them.
CARLSON: I understand.
BEGALA: It's great.
CARLSON: I like men with ideas. But you know as well as I do that anger is not going to get you elected president. People want a vision for hope. They want a temperament that's appealing.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: They want someone who seems like he is happy to be there.
BEGALA: Well, there's nobody more dyspeptic than George W. Bush.
But -- well, anyway, Senator Edward Moore Kennedy has served with nine presidents through four wars. Not long ago, he was a silent witness at the burial of a private from Massachusetts who was killed in Iraq. Well, today, Senator Kennedy spoke out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: The administration capitalized on the fear created by 9/11, put a spin on the intelligence, and put a spin on the truth to justify a war that could well become one of the worst blunders in more than two centuries of American foreign policy.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BEGALA: Amen, Senator Kennedy.
Indeed, newly discovered documents prove that Saddam Hussein ordered his followers not to ally themselves with Muslim radicals. Thank God Senator Kennedy at least has the courage to speak the truth to power. God bless him.
CARLSON: To which I say, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, he's always getting mad about something.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It's a war. He's got constituents being killed.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: If that's -- so does every member of Congress. And if that's your greatest moral leader.
BEGALA: He's a great moral leader.
CARLSON: But I will say that the fact that these documents indicate Saddam asked Muslims from outside, jihadis, not to fight the Americans is an interesting fact. It doesn't prove anything or show anything. I mean, that was -- those are documents apparently from after the American takeover of the country.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: This proves that President Bush was misleading us when he said that Iraq was the focal point of the al Qaeda movement. Vice President Cheney actually was the one who said that.
CARLSON: I don't think it does show that.
BEGALA: Of course it does.
CARLSON: But, anyway, yesterday on our show, your faithful hosts asked Dean campaign manager Joe Trippi if former President Jimmy Carter will be endorsing Howard Dean. Trippi's response, not really. Well, it seemed like a pretty odd thing to say.
Well, as we were reminded yet once more, Jimmy Carter is a pretty odd guy. In a statement issued today, Carter, who is the most sanctimonious man who ever to hold federal office of any kind, explained that he will not be endorsing Howard Dean next week. Instead, he has summoned Dean to the rural Georgia the day before the vital Iowa caucuses to -- quote -- "learn more about the candidate and his views." And that's it.
How incredibly insulting to Howard Dean, what a waste of time, and how perfectly, perfectly Jimmy Carter. If Howard Dean had any guts -- and he's run his whole presidential campaign on the promise that he does have guts -- he'd tell Carter to come to him here to Iowa, just forget the whole thing. We'll keep you posted on what he does. BEGALA: Well, I think it's terrific that a great moral leader like Jimmy Carter, who won the Nobel Peace Prize.
CARLSON: So did Yasser Arafat.
BEGALA: So did Martin Luther King, another great American.
CARLSON: So did Yasser Arafat.
BEGALA: That he is standing up against this wrongful war. Governor Dean has. I suspect that's why Jimmy Carter wants to give him his blessing.
CARLSON: It's the day before the caucuses, Paul.
BEGALA: That's
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: If he's not going to endorse Howard Dean, then he shouldn't ask him to come down to Plains, Georgia. That's the mark of a pompous man. I don't care if he's the former president or not.
BEGALA: It's the mark of a
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... who sees a war and wants to end it.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: The caucuses are the next day. Come on.
BEGALA: Well, this is a big risk for Dean. I think you make a good point there. We'll see if it pays off for Governor Dean.
Well, in his State of the Union address, President Bush will reportedly propose spending $1.5 billion of your money to promote marriage. How very Republican, how very hypocritical, but I repeat myself. Republicans like Newt Gingrich, for example, like marriage so very much that they've been married three times so far. But the night is young.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Mr. Bush, of course, does not want to regulate what corporations do in the bedroom -- but he would very much like to control what you do in the bedroom, not what corporations do in the boardroom.
Well, so, why not continue it? Why not ask Bill Bennett, say, to lead a crusade against gambling or Rush Limbaugh to lead the war on drugs? Now, of course, every Bush initiative needs a poster child. And for the marriage initiative, I fully expect to look up at the first lady's box at the State of the Union and see that loyal Republican paragon of marriage, Britney Spears.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You know, I don't think I've ever run across a larger group of sanctimonious, finger-wagging moralizers than liberals who prevent you from smoking in restaurants, if you want.
Look, I'm actually, I think, opposed to this, too, as a crypto- libertarian. I would just as soon the government stay away from advising me or anyone else on marriage. On the other hand, it's nice to have people who are at least pro-marriage. There's real hostility to traditional marriage coming from the left, as you know.
BEGALA: That's nonsense. It's Newt Gingrich that is getting divorced three times. Rush Limbaugh has been divorced, all the right- wingers.
CARLSON: Who cares?
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Who cares if they've been divorced? What does that have to do with anything? I feel sorry for them.
BEGALA: It has something to do with marriage. Since they're not very good at marriage, they shouldn't be lecturing the rest of us about it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: They should work on their own marriage and not spend my money trying to get other people married.
CARLSON: All right, Iowa Democrats are seeing stars. And, in a moment, we will, too. Rob Reiner and Martin Sheen sit down to discuss politics, culture shock and yet more politics, all in a terrific diner here in Iowa City.
And later, Dick Gephardt unleashes his attack dogs. Stay with us for biting political commentary. Get it? Biting. Ouch.
We'll be right back.
(LAUGHTER)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Following the example of CROSSFIRE and the CNN Election Express, Howard Dean sets off on his own bus tour of Iowa later today. Copycat.
Joining him for a rally at the Iowa State Fairgrounds will be actor/director Rob Reiner and actor Martin Sheen, who plays President Josiah 'Bartlet on "The West Wing."
I sat down with them earlier today at the Hamburg Inn here in Iowa City, probably the best breakfast restaurant in the Western Hemisphere.
Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CARLSON: We are here at the Hamburg Inn, the most charming restaurant in Iowa City, the most charming city in Iowa.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: It's a restaurant that has seen a lot of presidential candidates, but very few people from Los Angeles and the entertainment business. What are you all doing here?
SHEEN: I thought that Ronald Reagan started there.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: That's a excellent point.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: What are you doing here?
REINER: We're not stumping for Ronald Reagan. No, we're here for -- obviously, for Howard Dean.
This year, the Iowa caucus is always important. They're first in the country, and they're always important, but this year I think even more so because of the nature of the schedule of the schedule, the primary schedule, which is very front-loaded. Iowa takes on even greater importance now. And we've got a very hot, closely contested race here in Iowa.
And I think, whoever comes out of Iowa is going to have a huge leg up for getting the nomination. So we're here to stump for Howard Dean.
CARLSON: Now, Martin Sheen, you're here on behalf of a guy whose wife is a doctor. He's a liberal governor from a small New England state.
SHEEN: I have a sense where you're leading me.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: That's exactly right. This is the life-imitating-art question.
SHEEN: You know, it's a -- it's a -- it's a very interesting coincidence, but it's not bad, you know?
Bartlet is a Democrat, liberal, a very progressive guy, a very honest guy, a very bright guy. Should I go on and on?
(LAUGHTER)
SHEEN: He's not me. But I play him and I'm delighted -- but I'm delighted more so to support a guy who reflects a Bartlet-type guy.
(CROSSTALK)
REINER: You know, I gave him his start in politics.
SHEEN: It's true.
REINER: I hired him as chief of staff in "The American President."
(LAUGHTER)
REINER: So that gave him his political sea legs. And now's gotten a tremendous promotion, obviously. He's president of the United States now.
CARLSON: But in your films and on television, almost always the candidate, the president, no matter what his politics, is the most hopeful, sunniest, cheeriest guy. Is that Howard Dean in this race? Is he really the sunniest, cheeriest guy?
REINER: Well, I don't know, you know, in terms of his personality, but certainly in terms of his message. And he's really brought new energy into the Democratic Party.
We've seen people under 30 years old. Over 25 percent of his following is under 30 years old, people who've never voted before, people who've been given a reason to vote, a reason to participate in the political process. Howard Dean has really energized Democrats, like no other candidate we've seen.
CARLSON: But he's made a lot of them mad, and particularly in Washington. A lot of Washington Democrats don't like him. They think he threatens the party. Have you all taken any grief for supporting him?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You laugh. Tell me.
SHEEN: Well, because he's returning us to where we started. The party was for the working man, the working class, the poor, the marginal, the voiceless. That's what the party was.
And we lost that edge. And he has tapped into that resource again, and particularly among young people. And so this is very encouraging to me. And I think that all those Democrats that are upset with him had better, you know, watch their futures, because this is where the party is going to return and regain its strength and start to be a force again in American lives.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But why not Wes Clark, who is an outsider? He's not a Washington guy. He's bringing new people into the party. And he doesn't scare Terry McAuliffe and the rest of the Democrats.
SHEEN: Well, he just decided he was a Democrat a few months ago.
(LAUGHTER)
SHEEN: That's the difference.
CARLSON: You don't believe him?
SHEEN: No, not for minute. He's a good and decent man, mind you, and a very intelligent man.
(CROSSTALK)
REINER: You know, we are...
SHEEN: But he became a Democrat just a few months ago.
CARLSON: I did notice that.
SHEEN: Yes. That's the difference.
(LAUGHTER)
REINER: Yes. You know, you often say, I don't belong to any political party. I'm a Democrat.
(LAUGHTER)
REINER: We have a way of airing our dirty linen in public, if you will. That's what we do.
I mean, I've often said, the difference between Republicans and Democrats are, Republicans know they're right. Democrats entertain the possibility they might be wrong.
(LAUGHTER)
REINER: And that creates wonderful debate, wonderful exchange of ideas. Just today in this restaurant, I'm having great conversations with folks that are supporting Dennis Kucinich.
We love to exchange ideas. At the end of the day, though, there's a lot of these internecine battles going on between the DLC and the more established part of the party and Howard Dean. But, at the end of the day, if Howard Dean is to get the nomination, he will bring the party together. Democrats always do that, ultimately, because we all unify around the idea of getting George Bush out of the White House, because we believe that George Bush...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: What if Howard Dean -- what if Howard Dean loses in the South to, say, Wes Clark, doesn't get the nomination. There's a Dean movement. Can it really decelerate and stop? Doesn't it sort of have to go third party at that point? Can he really just say, OK, I didn't get it; I'm throwing my weight behind Wes Clark? Can that really happen?
REINER: I think Howard Dean will unify this party one way or the other. He will -- he will either get the nomination and bring all the rest of the folks into the fold, or if, you know, for some reason, he doesn't, he will make it clear that he is supporting a Democrat, because his first and foremost thrust is to make sure that this country is going in the right direction. It is going in the wrong direction now. And the way to do that is to get George Bush out of the White House.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: My last question.
Martin Sheen, do you think that -- that Howard Dean is appealing enough to star in a show like yours?
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
SHEEN: The question is, am I...
REINER: If he's got Aaron Sorkin writing for him, he will be.
(LAUGHTER)
SHEEN: There you go.
Am I appealing enough to star in his show? Because that's what I'm doing right now.
CARLSON: Well, that's a much -- that's a much different question.
REINER: Hey, see how he turned it around?
CARLSON: Yes! I'm impressed.
(LAUGHTER)
REINER: He turned it around.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: He's learning politics already. That is fantastic.
Thank you very much. Martin Sheen, Rob Reiner, thanks a lot.
REINER: Thanks, Tucker.
CARLSON: Get the sausage. It's excellent.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BEGALA: Fascinating discussion.
To counter Dean's star power, rumor is, President Bush is going to ask his own favorite celebrities to campaign for him. That would be the board of directors of Halliburton.
Well, meanwhile, Dick Gephardt is heating up the frigid campaign trail here in Iowa with a blistering attack on the front-runner, Howard Dean. Coming up, we will ask Mr. Gephardt's chief of staff how the congressman's new message is being received.
But next, in a CNN news update, Wolf Blitzer tells us more about President Bush's plan to send Americans back to the moon and even on to Mars.
Stay with us.
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to the live Washington audience, call 202-994-8CNN or e-mail us at CNN@gwu.edu. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE and to Iowa City and to the University of Iowa, home of the Fighting Hawkeyes.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Presidential candidate Dick Gephardt today took a hard shot directly at Howard Dean's honesty, calling Governor Dean -- quote -- "a fair-weather friend of the American worker" -- unquote -- whose promises can't be trusted and whose motives must be questioned.
Stepping into the CROSSFIRE to discuss all of this is Gephardt campaign chief of staff Steve Elmendorf.
Steve, good to see you again.
STEVE ELMENDORF, DICK GEPHARDT CAMPAIGN CHIEF OF STAFF: How you guys doing?
CARLSON: Steve, thanks for joining us. Great, but a little confused, Steve. Your candidate, Congressman Gephardt, today accused Governor Dean of engaging in -- quote -- "manufactured anger." What does that mean? Does that mean Howard Dean is secretly a cheery guy, actually in a pretty good mood, pretty nice? He's just hiding it from the American voter? What is he talking about?
ELMENDORF: You know, I think for the Dean campaign to be whining about being attacked here in this campaign is really unbelievable. This is a guy who began his campaign...
CARLSON: I -- wait, wait, wait. I agree with you. But what does the attack mean? I mean, I agree that Dean is a whiner. But what does it mean that he's not really angry?
(LAUGHTER)
ELMENDORF: Huh?
CARLSON: What does it mean when Congressman Gephardt says it's manufactured anger, that it's not real anger?
ELMENDORF: Look, we gave a -- Dick Gephardt gave a speech today that talked about Howard Dean's record and talked about Dick Gephardt's big, bold ideas in this campaign, what he was standing for, his Midwestern values, his experience. And Howard Dean and his campaign are continuing to complain that we're attacking him.
BEGALA: Well, Steve, in fact, you are attacking him. And good for you. I praised Joe Trippi yesterday for running a negative ad.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: I think it's good to fight these things out, as long as it's fair and factual and on the record.
But let me play you a sound bite from Congressman Gephardt's speech today and then ask you about it. Here's Dick Gephardt today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEPHARDT: Howard Dean travels the country and yells and pounds the podium against NAFTA, against the secrecy of the Bush-Cheney White House, and against insider corporate deals. This is the same Governor Dean who said he -- quote -- "strongly supported NAFTA," who won't release his records as governor, and who wanted Vermont to -- quote -- "overtake Bermuda" as a tax haven for companies like Enron.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Wow, Steve, isn't that kind of harsh to be comparing Governor Dean to Bush and Cheney?
ELMENDORF: We're -- we're just talking about Governor Dean's record. He should release his records. He's criticized Dick Cheney for not releasing his records. He ought to tell us what he really believes about trade. He was on your friend George Stephanopoulos show how many years ago saying he strongly supported NAFTA. We'd like to see his real record.
CARLSON: Wait.
But the implication, Steve, of what you're saying and of what Congressman Gephardt said earlier today and has said before is that Dean isn't really the liberal he purports to be, that he's secretly right-wing and in league with the Republicans.
ELMENDORF: Well...
CARLSON: Do you believe that? Do you really think that Howard Dean is secretly conservative?
ELMENDORF: No, we didn't say he was secretly conservative.
We're saying he ought -- it's not a conservative or a liberal issue whether you ought to release your records as governor, so that people can -- Karl Rove and George Bush are going to be looking for those records. Before we nominate a candidate for president to run against George Bush, we ought to know everything we can about him.
BEGALA: Well, let me read you another quote that Mr. Gephardt said today, Steve. He said, "The only way we can beat George Bush is to be clear about where we stand and to be truthful with the American people."
Is Congressman Gephardt suggesting that Howard Dean is not truthful, that he's a liar?
ELMENDORF: No. He said -- he didn't -- that quote you read stands on its own.
Dick Gephardt thinks he is the best candidate against George Bush. He thinks that he is the best candidate on the issues and he's the best candidate who can beat George Bush in the Midwest, where we need to win this election. And he needs to make a clear contrast with George Bush on issues like trade, issues like Medicare, issues like the assault ban on weapons -- the ban on assault weapons. And Howard Dean is not going to be able to make a clear distinction with George Bush on those issues.
BEGALA: Well, and that is because, you allege and Mr. Gephardt alleged in a speech, that Dean has flip-flopped on trade and on guns.
But, in point of fact...
ELMENDORF: I don't know...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I worked for Dick Gephardt 16 years ago in 1988 here in Iowa. And he changed his position on abortion. Dick Gephardt came into politics strongly pro-life. Now he's strongly pro-abortion rights. So what's wrong with flip-flopping? If Gephardt changed on abortion, what's wrong with Dean changing on guns and trade?
ELMENDORF: I don't know that -- I don't know that Howard Dean has flip-flopped.
I don't know that Howard Dean has told us what he really believes about Medicare. I don't know that Howard Dean has repudiated what he said about Medicare in 1985. I don't think he's flip-flopped. I think the problem is, he hasn't necessarily changed his positions.
CARLSON: Interesting.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: OK, Steve Elmendorf from Washington of the Dick Gephardt for president campaign, thanks a lot for joining us.
ELMENDORF: Hey.
CARLSON: We'll see you in Iowa tomorrow, I think.
ELMENDORF: If you want guys some Dick Gephardt hats, we can get them for you at www.DickGephardt2004.com.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: We -- thanks for offering, Steve. This is the last time we're ever going to wear hats on television.
ELMENDORF: I'll pay for them.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: We appreciate it. Thanks a lot.
Well, Howard Dean not the topic of the next segment. Almost as good, however. It's one thing to support your favorite presidential candidate. It's another thing to lay money on the question of who is going to win and who's not going to win. Coming up, we'll talk with the director of the University of Iowa's political stock market, which we are told can be more accurate than the polls themselves.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: You've heard of the stock market, the commodities market, even the pork bellies market, whatever that is. It's big in Iowa. There's an innovation here, though, that is unique to American politics. It is the political stock market.
And one of the guys who put it together here at the University of Iowa is economics professor George Neumann.
Professor Neumann, thank you for joining us on CROSSFIRE. GEORGE NEUMANN, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF IOWA: Thank you.
CARLSON: So, Professor Neumann, as I understand it, you are saying you have a better way to predict who is going to win even than, say, talk show hosts guessing?
(LAUGHTER)
NEUMANN: Exactly. We just rely on persons observing the market and placing bets.
BEGALA: Well, so -- but what would stop, say, Dick Cheney, who's worth millions of dollars, from just putting a whole lot of money on, say, Dennis Kucinich and throwing your whole market off?
NEUMANN: Well, we have a limitation imposed on us by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission of $500 an account.
But, in fact, when you watch these students here, when someone does something crazy like that -- and it happens -- the students are in the labs watching this, and they'll just say, there's fresh meat on the street. And they just trade -- if it doesn't make sense, they trade against it.
CARLSON: Interesting.
BEGALA: Really?
CARLSON: So who are they -- who are they -- who are your investors betting is going to win at this point?
NEUMANN: Well, right now, we have one market in the Democratic Convention. And in that, Howard Dean has been the leader at 60 percent right now. But he's fallen from 70 percent about a week ago. Clark has come up from 10 percent to 20 percent. And that's been pretty much the dynamic there. Everyone else is below the radar screen.
BEGALA: Who did your market pick in 2000, where the voters really couldn't pick a winner?
NEUMANN: Well, there's an interesting case.
We paid off on Gore, because we had the vote-share market and he won the popular vote. It was -- we had thousands of trades in the last minute, as people couldn't figure out, is it going to be Gore, is it going to be Bush? And we had -- we had a dead heat from August on.
CARLSON: But in -- in the reality market, of course, Bush won.
NEUMANN: No.
BEGALA: No, just in the thievery market.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Professor Neumann, thanks so much for joining us.
BEGALA: Professor George Neumann, thank you so much, University of Iowa.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: From the left and from the home of the Hawkeyes, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Tomorrow, the CNN Election Express will stop in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. Join us then for yet more CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now. Have a great night.
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Aired January 14, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: Look who's getting help from Hollywood.
MARTIN SHEEN, ACTOR: I am honored to come here today and declare next Monday, January 19, Howard Dean day in Iowa.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Tucker Carlson sits down with Martin Sheen and Rob Reiner.
ROB REINER, ACTOR/DIRECTOR: Howard Dean has really energized Democrats like no other candidate we've seen.
ANNOUNCER: Plus, Dick Gephardt on the attack.
REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D-MO), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I may not be the flashiest guy in the race, but I'll put my ideas up against anyone's.
ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the CNN Election Express in Iowa City, Iowa, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody and welcome to CROSSFIRE.
We are in the heart of America's heartland, where, as my dad would say, it's colder than a well digger's rear end. Well, we're on the campus of the University of Iowa in Iowa City, Iowa, on the banks of the Iowa River.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: That's a lot of Iowa. As you can tell, we are a long way from Hollywood, but a couple of Hollywood entertainers are here to stump for Howard Dean. We'll hear from Rob Reiner and Martin Sheen in a moment.
But first, the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Well, Dick Gephardt has represented a congressional district not far from Iowa for most of his adult life. In 1988, he won the Iowa caucuses. For these and other reasons, Gephardt had every reason to think he'd win the state this year. And then came Howard Dean. The Vermont fireplug came from nowhere, shouting louder than anyone else. Suddenly, he displaced Gephardt for first place in the polls. The lesson learned? The angriest man wins.
Gephardt is trying hard to become that man. In a speech here in Iowa this morning, Gephardt accused Dean of being a shameless phony, a political chameleon who secretly does the bidding of Republicans. Worst of all, he charged that Dean isn't really angry -- quote -- "There is no room for the cynical politics of manufactured anger," Gephardt growled.
Dean, meanwhile, angrily defended his anger. Who is genuinely dyspeptic and who is just faking? That's the question in the fight between Dean and Dick Gephardt. And may the most unpleasant man win.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: This is what politics ought to be. It's passionate. And you seen anger. I see passion. Gephardt has his ideas. He's fighting for them.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Governor Dean has his and he's fighting for them.
CARLSON: I understand.
BEGALA: It's great.
CARLSON: I like men with ideas. But you know as well as I do that anger is not going to get you elected president. People want a vision for hope. They want a temperament that's appealing.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: They want someone who seems like he is happy to be there.
BEGALA: Well, there's nobody more dyspeptic than George W. Bush.
But -- well, anyway, Senator Edward Moore Kennedy has served with nine presidents through four wars. Not long ago, he was a silent witness at the burial of a private from Massachusetts who was killed in Iraq. Well, today, Senator Kennedy spoke out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: The administration capitalized on the fear created by 9/11, put a spin on the intelligence, and put a spin on the truth to justify a war that could well become one of the worst blunders in more than two centuries of American foreign policy.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BEGALA: Amen, Senator Kennedy.
Indeed, newly discovered documents prove that Saddam Hussein ordered his followers not to ally themselves with Muslim radicals. Thank God Senator Kennedy at least has the courage to speak the truth to power. God bless him.
CARLSON: To which I say, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, he's always getting mad about something.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It's a war. He's got constituents being killed.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: If that's -- so does every member of Congress. And if that's your greatest moral leader.
BEGALA: He's a great moral leader.
CARLSON: But I will say that the fact that these documents indicate Saddam asked Muslims from outside, jihadis, not to fight the Americans is an interesting fact. It doesn't prove anything or show anything. I mean, that was -- those are documents apparently from after the American takeover of the country.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: This proves that President Bush was misleading us when he said that Iraq was the focal point of the al Qaeda movement. Vice President Cheney actually was the one who said that.
CARLSON: I don't think it does show that.
BEGALA: Of course it does.
CARLSON: But, anyway, yesterday on our show, your faithful hosts asked Dean campaign manager Joe Trippi if former President Jimmy Carter will be endorsing Howard Dean. Trippi's response, not really. Well, it seemed like a pretty odd thing to say.
Well, as we were reminded yet once more, Jimmy Carter is a pretty odd guy. In a statement issued today, Carter, who is the most sanctimonious man who ever to hold federal office of any kind, explained that he will not be endorsing Howard Dean next week. Instead, he has summoned Dean to the rural Georgia the day before the vital Iowa caucuses to -- quote -- "learn more about the candidate and his views." And that's it.
How incredibly insulting to Howard Dean, what a waste of time, and how perfectly, perfectly Jimmy Carter. If Howard Dean had any guts -- and he's run his whole presidential campaign on the promise that he does have guts -- he'd tell Carter to come to him here to Iowa, just forget the whole thing. We'll keep you posted on what he does. BEGALA: Well, I think it's terrific that a great moral leader like Jimmy Carter, who won the Nobel Peace Prize.
CARLSON: So did Yasser Arafat.
BEGALA: So did Martin Luther King, another great American.
CARLSON: So did Yasser Arafat.
BEGALA: That he is standing up against this wrongful war. Governor Dean has. I suspect that's why Jimmy Carter wants to give him his blessing.
CARLSON: It's the day before the caucuses, Paul.
BEGALA: That's
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: If he's not going to endorse Howard Dean, then he shouldn't ask him to come down to Plains, Georgia. That's the mark of a pompous man. I don't care if he's the former president or not.
BEGALA: It's the mark of a
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... who sees a war and wants to end it.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: The caucuses are the next day. Come on.
BEGALA: Well, this is a big risk for Dean. I think you make a good point there. We'll see if it pays off for Governor Dean.
Well, in his State of the Union address, President Bush will reportedly propose spending $1.5 billion of your money to promote marriage. How very Republican, how very hypocritical, but I repeat myself. Republicans like Newt Gingrich, for example, like marriage so very much that they've been married three times so far. But the night is young.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Mr. Bush, of course, does not want to regulate what corporations do in the bedroom -- but he would very much like to control what you do in the bedroom, not what corporations do in the boardroom.
Well, so, why not continue it? Why not ask Bill Bennett, say, to lead a crusade against gambling or Rush Limbaugh to lead the war on drugs? Now, of course, every Bush initiative needs a poster child. And for the marriage initiative, I fully expect to look up at the first lady's box at the State of the Union and see that loyal Republican paragon of marriage, Britney Spears.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You know, I don't think I've ever run across a larger group of sanctimonious, finger-wagging moralizers than liberals who prevent you from smoking in restaurants, if you want.
Look, I'm actually, I think, opposed to this, too, as a crypto- libertarian. I would just as soon the government stay away from advising me or anyone else on marriage. On the other hand, it's nice to have people who are at least pro-marriage. There's real hostility to traditional marriage coming from the left, as you know.
BEGALA: That's nonsense. It's Newt Gingrich that is getting divorced three times. Rush Limbaugh has been divorced, all the right- wingers.
CARLSON: Who cares?
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Who cares if they've been divorced? What does that have to do with anything? I feel sorry for them.
BEGALA: It has something to do with marriage. Since they're not very good at marriage, they shouldn't be lecturing the rest of us about it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: They should work on their own marriage and not spend my money trying to get other people married.
CARLSON: All right, Iowa Democrats are seeing stars. And, in a moment, we will, too. Rob Reiner and Martin Sheen sit down to discuss politics, culture shock and yet more politics, all in a terrific diner here in Iowa City.
And later, Dick Gephardt unleashes his attack dogs. Stay with us for biting political commentary. Get it? Biting. Ouch.
We'll be right back.
(LAUGHTER)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Following the example of CROSSFIRE and the CNN Election Express, Howard Dean sets off on his own bus tour of Iowa later today. Copycat.
Joining him for a rally at the Iowa State Fairgrounds will be actor/director Rob Reiner and actor Martin Sheen, who plays President Josiah 'Bartlet on "The West Wing."
I sat down with them earlier today at the Hamburg Inn here in Iowa City, probably the best breakfast restaurant in the Western Hemisphere.
Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CARLSON: We are here at the Hamburg Inn, the most charming restaurant in Iowa City, the most charming city in Iowa.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: It's a restaurant that has seen a lot of presidential candidates, but very few people from Los Angeles and the entertainment business. What are you all doing here?
SHEEN: I thought that Ronald Reagan started there.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: That's a excellent point.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: What are you doing here?
REINER: We're not stumping for Ronald Reagan. No, we're here for -- obviously, for Howard Dean.
This year, the Iowa caucus is always important. They're first in the country, and they're always important, but this year I think even more so because of the nature of the schedule of the schedule, the primary schedule, which is very front-loaded. Iowa takes on even greater importance now. And we've got a very hot, closely contested race here in Iowa.
And I think, whoever comes out of Iowa is going to have a huge leg up for getting the nomination. So we're here to stump for Howard Dean.
CARLSON: Now, Martin Sheen, you're here on behalf of a guy whose wife is a doctor. He's a liberal governor from a small New England state.
SHEEN: I have a sense where you're leading me.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: That's exactly right. This is the life-imitating-art question.
SHEEN: You know, it's a -- it's a -- it's a very interesting coincidence, but it's not bad, you know?
Bartlet is a Democrat, liberal, a very progressive guy, a very honest guy, a very bright guy. Should I go on and on?
(LAUGHTER)
SHEEN: He's not me. But I play him and I'm delighted -- but I'm delighted more so to support a guy who reflects a Bartlet-type guy.
(CROSSTALK)
REINER: You know, I gave him his start in politics.
SHEEN: It's true.
REINER: I hired him as chief of staff in "The American President."
(LAUGHTER)
REINER: So that gave him his political sea legs. And now's gotten a tremendous promotion, obviously. He's president of the United States now.
CARLSON: But in your films and on television, almost always the candidate, the president, no matter what his politics, is the most hopeful, sunniest, cheeriest guy. Is that Howard Dean in this race? Is he really the sunniest, cheeriest guy?
REINER: Well, I don't know, you know, in terms of his personality, but certainly in terms of his message. And he's really brought new energy into the Democratic Party.
We've seen people under 30 years old. Over 25 percent of his following is under 30 years old, people who've never voted before, people who've been given a reason to vote, a reason to participate in the political process. Howard Dean has really energized Democrats, like no other candidate we've seen.
CARLSON: But he's made a lot of them mad, and particularly in Washington. A lot of Washington Democrats don't like him. They think he threatens the party. Have you all taken any grief for supporting him?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You laugh. Tell me.
SHEEN: Well, because he's returning us to where we started. The party was for the working man, the working class, the poor, the marginal, the voiceless. That's what the party was.
And we lost that edge. And he has tapped into that resource again, and particularly among young people. And so this is very encouraging to me. And I think that all those Democrats that are upset with him had better, you know, watch their futures, because this is where the party is going to return and regain its strength and start to be a force again in American lives.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But why not Wes Clark, who is an outsider? He's not a Washington guy. He's bringing new people into the party. And he doesn't scare Terry McAuliffe and the rest of the Democrats.
SHEEN: Well, he just decided he was a Democrat a few months ago.
(LAUGHTER)
SHEEN: That's the difference.
CARLSON: You don't believe him?
SHEEN: No, not for minute. He's a good and decent man, mind you, and a very intelligent man.
(CROSSTALK)
REINER: You know, we are...
SHEEN: But he became a Democrat just a few months ago.
CARLSON: I did notice that.
SHEEN: Yes. That's the difference.
(LAUGHTER)
REINER: Yes. You know, you often say, I don't belong to any political party. I'm a Democrat.
(LAUGHTER)
REINER: We have a way of airing our dirty linen in public, if you will. That's what we do.
I mean, I've often said, the difference between Republicans and Democrats are, Republicans know they're right. Democrats entertain the possibility they might be wrong.
(LAUGHTER)
REINER: And that creates wonderful debate, wonderful exchange of ideas. Just today in this restaurant, I'm having great conversations with folks that are supporting Dennis Kucinich.
We love to exchange ideas. At the end of the day, though, there's a lot of these internecine battles going on between the DLC and the more established part of the party and Howard Dean. But, at the end of the day, if Howard Dean is to get the nomination, he will bring the party together. Democrats always do that, ultimately, because we all unify around the idea of getting George Bush out of the White House, because we believe that George Bush...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: What if Howard Dean -- what if Howard Dean loses in the South to, say, Wes Clark, doesn't get the nomination. There's a Dean movement. Can it really decelerate and stop? Doesn't it sort of have to go third party at that point? Can he really just say, OK, I didn't get it; I'm throwing my weight behind Wes Clark? Can that really happen?
REINER: I think Howard Dean will unify this party one way or the other. He will -- he will either get the nomination and bring all the rest of the folks into the fold, or if, you know, for some reason, he doesn't, he will make it clear that he is supporting a Democrat, because his first and foremost thrust is to make sure that this country is going in the right direction. It is going in the wrong direction now. And the way to do that is to get George Bush out of the White House.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: My last question.
Martin Sheen, do you think that -- that Howard Dean is appealing enough to star in a show like yours?
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
SHEEN: The question is, am I...
REINER: If he's got Aaron Sorkin writing for him, he will be.
(LAUGHTER)
SHEEN: There you go.
Am I appealing enough to star in his show? Because that's what I'm doing right now.
CARLSON: Well, that's a much -- that's a much different question.
REINER: Hey, see how he turned it around?
CARLSON: Yes! I'm impressed.
(LAUGHTER)
REINER: He turned it around.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: He's learning politics already. That is fantastic.
Thank you very much. Martin Sheen, Rob Reiner, thanks a lot.
REINER: Thanks, Tucker.
CARLSON: Get the sausage. It's excellent.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BEGALA: Fascinating discussion.
To counter Dean's star power, rumor is, President Bush is going to ask his own favorite celebrities to campaign for him. That would be the board of directors of Halliburton.
Well, meanwhile, Dick Gephardt is heating up the frigid campaign trail here in Iowa with a blistering attack on the front-runner, Howard Dean. Coming up, we will ask Mr. Gephardt's chief of staff how the congressman's new message is being received.
But next, in a CNN news update, Wolf Blitzer tells us more about President Bush's plan to send Americans back to the moon and even on to Mars.
Stay with us.
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to the live Washington audience, call 202-994-8CNN or e-mail us at CNN@gwu.edu. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE and to Iowa City and to the University of Iowa, home of the Fighting Hawkeyes.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Presidential candidate Dick Gephardt today took a hard shot directly at Howard Dean's honesty, calling Governor Dean -- quote -- "a fair-weather friend of the American worker" -- unquote -- whose promises can't be trusted and whose motives must be questioned.
Stepping into the CROSSFIRE to discuss all of this is Gephardt campaign chief of staff Steve Elmendorf.
Steve, good to see you again.
STEVE ELMENDORF, DICK GEPHARDT CAMPAIGN CHIEF OF STAFF: How you guys doing?
CARLSON: Steve, thanks for joining us. Great, but a little confused, Steve. Your candidate, Congressman Gephardt, today accused Governor Dean of engaging in -- quote -- "manufactured anger." What does that mean? Does that mean Howard Dean is secretly a cheery guy, actually in a pretty good mood, pretty nice? He's just hiding it from the American voter? What is he talking about?
ELMENDORF: You know, I think for the Dean campaign to be whining about being attacked here in this campaign is really unbelievable. This is a guy who began his campaign...
CARLSON: I -- wait, wait, wait. I agree with you. But what does the attack mean? I mean, I agree that Dean is a whiner. But what does it mean that he's not really angry?
(LAUGHTER)
ELMENDORF: Huh?
CARLSON: What does it mean when Congressman Gephardt says it's manufactured anger, that it's not real anger?
ELMENDORF: Look, we gave a -- Dick Gephardt gave a speech today that talked about Howard Dean's record and talked about Dick Gephardt's big, bold ideas in this campaign, what he was standing for, his Midwestern values, his experience. And Howard Dean and his campaign are continuing to complain that we're attacking him.
BEGALA: Well, Steve, in fact, you are attacking him. And good for you. I praised Joe Trippi yesterday for running a negative ad.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: I think it's good to fight these things out, as long as it's fair and factual and on the record.
But let me play you a sound bite from Congressman Gephardt's speech today and then ask you about it. Here's Dick Gephardt today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEPHARDT: Howard Dean travels the country and yells and pounds the podium against NAFTA, against the secrecy of the Bush-Cheney White House, and against insider corporate deals. This is the same Governor Dean who said he -- quote -- "strongly supported NAFTA," who won't release his records as governor, and who wanted Vermont to -- quote -- "overtake Bermuda" as a tax haven for companies like Enron.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Wow, Steve, isn't that kind of harsh to be comparing Governor Dean to Bush and Cheney?
ELMENDORF: We're -- we're just talking about Governor Dean's record. He should release his records. He's criticized Dick Cheney for not releasing his records. He ought to tell us what he really believes about trade. He was on your friend George Stephanopoulos show how many years ago saying he strongly supported NAFTA. We'd like to see his real record.
CARLSON: Wait.
But the implication, Steve, of what you're saying and of what Congressman Gephardt said earlier today and has said before is that Dean isn't really the liberal he purports to be, that he's secretly right-wing and in league with the Republicans.
ELMENDORF: Well...
CARLSON: Do you believe that? Do you really think that Howard Dean is secretly conservative?
ELMENDORF: No, we didn't say he was secretly conservative.
We're saying he ought -- it's not a conservative or a liberal issue whether you ought to release your records as governor, so that people can -- Karl Rove and George Bush are going to be looking for those records. Before we nominate a candidate for president to run against George Bush, we ought to know everything we can about him.
BEGALA: Well, let me read you another quote that Mr. Gephardt said today, Steve. He said, "The only way we can beat George Bush is to be clear about where we stand and to be truthful with the American people."
Is Congressman Gephardt suggesting that Howard Dean is not truthful, that he's a liar?
ELMENDORF: No. He said -- he didn't -- that quote you read stands on its own.
Dick Gephardt thinks he is the best candidate against George Bush. He thinks that he is the best candidate on the issues and he's the best candidate who can beat George Bush in the Midwest, where we need to win this election. And he needs to make a clear contrast with George Bush on issues like trade, issues like Medicare, issues like the assault ban on weapons -- the ban on assault weapons. And Howard Dean is not going to be able to make a clear distinction with George Bush on those issues.
BEGALA: Well, and that is because, you allege and Mr. Gephardt alleged in a speech, that Dean has flip-flopped on trade and on guns.
But, in point of fact...
ELMENDORF: I don't know...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I worked for Dick Gephardt 16 years ago in 1988 here in Iowa. And he changed his position on abortion. Dick Gephardt came into politics strongly pro-life. Now he's strongly pro-abortion rights. So what's wrong with flip-flopping? If Gephardt changed on abortion, what's wrong with Dean changing on guns and trade?
ELMENDORF: I don't know that -- I don't know that Howard Dean has flip-flopped.
I don't know that Howard Dean has told us what he really believes about Medicare. I don't know that Howard Dean has repudiated what he said about Medicare in 1985. I don't think he's flip-flopped. I think the problem is, he hasn't necessarily changed his positions.
CARLSON: Interesting.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: OK, Steve Elmendorf from Washington of the Dick Gephardt for president campaign, thanks a lot for joining us.
ELMENDORF: Hey.
CARLSON: We'll see you in Iowa tomorrow, I think.
ELMENDORF: If you want guys some Dick Gephardt hats, we can get them for you at www.DickGephardt2004.com.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: We -- thanks for offering, Steve. This is the last time we're ever going to wear hats on television.
ELMENDORF: I'll pay for them.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: We appreciate it. Thanks a lot.
Well, Howard Dean not the topic of the next segment. Almost as good, however. It's one thing to support your favorite presidential candidate. It's another thing to lay money on the question of who is going to win and who's not going to win. Coming up, we'll talk with the director of the University of Iowa's political stock market, which we are told can be more accurate than the polls themselves.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: You've heard of the stock market, the commodities market, even the pork bellies market, whatever that is. It's big in Iowa. There's an innovation here, though, that is unique to American politics. It is the political stock market.
And one of the guys who put it together here at the University of Iowa is economics professor George Neumann.
Professor Neumann, thank you for joining us on CROSSFIRE. GEORGE NEUMANN, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF IOWA: Thank you.
CARLSON: So, Professor Neumann, as I understand it, you are saying you have a better way to predict who is going to win even than, say, talk show hosts guessing?
(LAUGHTER)
NEUMANN: Exactly. We just rely on persons observing the market and placing bets.
BEGALA: Well, so -- but what would stop, say, Dick Cheney, who's worth millions of dollars, from just putting a whole lot of money on, say, Dennis Kucinich and throwing your whole market off?
NEUMANN: Well, we have a limitation imposed on us by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission of $500 an account.
But, in fact, when you watch these students here, when someone does something crazy like that -- and it happens -- the students are in the labs watching this, and they'll just say, there's fresh meat on the street. And they just trade -- if it doesn't make sense, they trade against it.
CARLSON: Interesting.
BEGALA: Really?
CARLSON: So who are they -- who are they -- who are your investors betting is going to win at this point?
NEUMANN: Well, right now, we have one market in the Democratic Convention. And in that, Howard Dean has been the leader at 60 percent right now. But he's fallen from 70 percent about a week ago. Clark has come up from 10 percent to 20 percent. And that's been pretty much the dynamic there. Everyone else is below the radar screen.
BEGALA: Who did your market pick in 2000, where the voters really couldn't pick a winner?
NEUMANN: Well, there's an interesting case.
We paid off on Gore, because we had the vote-share market and he won the popular vote. It was -- we had thousands of trades in the last minute, as people couldn't figure out, is it going to be Gore, is it going to be Bush? And we had -- we had a dead heat from August on.
CARLSON: But in -- in the reality market, of course, Bush won.
NEUMANN: No.
BEGALA: No, just in the thievery market.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Professor Neumann, thanks so much for joining us.
BEGALA: Professor George Neumann, thank you so much, University of Iowa.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: From the left and from the home of the Hawkeyes, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Tomorrow, the CNN Election Express will stop in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. Join us then for yet more CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now. Have a great night.
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