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CNN Crossfire
Is Kerry Unstoppable?
Aired February 06, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: Will three more states mean three more wins for Senator John Kerry?
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Bring it on!
ANNOUNCER: More and more Democrats are jumping on the Kerry bandwagon.
REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D), MISSOURI: We need a leader who can defeat George Bush in November.
ANNOUNCER: But not everyone is convinced.
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We believe that people are voting for Senator Kerry without knowing anything about him.
ANNOUNCER: Is John Kerry unstoppable?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Michigan, Maine, and the state of Washington should be caucusing their way into the John Kerry column this weekend. But is it time for the Democrats there to start experiencing a little buyers' remorse?
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Well, I'll say this, Bob.
The corporate interests who bought the White House for George W. Bush, they don't have any buyers' remorse. And they're sticking us with the bill.
We will debate whether John Kerry or one of the other Democrats can return our White House to we the people in a minute. First, the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
President Bush today named seven members of the commission to investigate prewar intelligence on Iraq. One of the co-chairs, former federal Judge Lawrence Silberman was outed by former right-wing journalist David Brock as a key supporter of the right wing witch-hunt of President Clinton's sex life, even though, as a federal judge, he really wasn't supposed to be involved in politics.
Another commissioner member, Senator John McCain, has already pronounced judgment saying -- quote -- "I don't think anyone intentionally misled the American people" -- unquote. Well, I do, Senator McCain. The president misled us. He said Iraq was an urgent threat, a growing threat. Dick Cheney said it was a mortal threat. And the Bush White House repeatedly called Iraq an imminent threat.
I'll tell you what. With guys like that, this commission's starting to look like the biggest whitewash since Tom Sawyer.
NOVAK: You know, Paul, what you want is an auto defay (ph), like the Spanish Inquisition.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Those were the days.
NOVAK: Yes.
You're not really interested in finding out what happened, because John McCain, I'm telling you straight that he is no patsy for George W. Bush. And let me tell you something about Larry Silberman. That is one of the most distinguished federal jurists in America. And I'm embarrassed to be sitting with you having slurring and having canards against him by a left-wing attack man like David Brock.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Do you deny that Silberman was supportive of that whole right-wing witch-hunt?
NOVAK: He -- certainly not. And neither was I.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: A sighting on the Al Gore watch. I would have thought that the former vice president would continue to keep out of sight after Howard Dean's candidacy crashed and burned following Gore's endorsement. But Al was in New York calling the Republican Party a -- quote -- "coalition of people who fear other Americans" -- end quote.
Who's writing his stuff, Paul Begala?
(LAUGHTER) NOVAK: Gore went on for 40 unendurable minutes with similar blather, accusing George W. Bush of running the machinery of fear and comparing the president with Richard Nixon. Gore ought to know. Al Gore is the most Nixonian Democrat I've ever seen.
BEGALA: Nixonian? No, Al Gore is a great patriot.
He could have continued to drag the country on through the recount when Bush stole the election, which he did.
NOVAK: Oh.
BEGALA: Instead he gave a great patriotic speech. He has been a beacon of patriotism in opposing this president and his policies. He doesn't speak out often. But when he does, I sure listen.
NOVAK: Do you have your fingers crossed when you saying
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I think this -- it was a great speech by him.
NOVAK: You know, he gave up on the recount because he didn't have the votes.
BEGALA: On the Supreme Court, because his daddy didn't appoint the court.
NOVAK: He kept it -- he kept it on too long.
BEGALA: No. No. I think Gore did a great job. And the fact that you guys are attacking him is a good sign that he's on the right message.
NOVAK: I love...
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: ... to attack Gore.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, President Bush has agreed to do a rare one-hour interview on "Meet the Press" with Tim Russert this Sunday.
Now, look, Russert's the best. But, Mr. President, if you'll come here on CROSSFIRE for just a half-an-hour, I'll give you the questions in advance. Here they are. Why did you throw your arm around a firefighter at ground zero and then cut grants to local firefighters by 50 percent? Why do you say you honor those who wear the uniform, then produce a veterans budget so savage that the VFW calls it -- quote -- "a disgrace and a shame" -- unquote?
Why do you speak so emotionally about overcoming drinking and then cut $30 million from youth alcohol treatment? By the way, Mr. President, can you produce one person, even one, who remembers serving with you in the Alabama National Guard?
NOVAK: You know, Paul, I...
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: I know you have a lot of commitment to CROSSFIRE, that you like CROSSFIRE. You want it to succeed. We'd like to get the president.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: We'd love to have him here.
NOVAK: Well, maybe you could make a little self-sacrifice, if we get a different Democrat to sit over there. And I have a candidate, Senator Zell Miller of Georgia. If we can get him as the other
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: ... would you give it up?
BEGALA: Oh, if I can cast -- if I can cast votes for Zell in the Senate, he can have my seat on CROSSFIRE. We'll trade tomorrow. That would be a great deal. Let me cast votes as a senator from Georgia and he can run his mouth on TV. I don't Zell would make that trade.
NOVAK: See, those are mean and nasty questions?
BEGALA: Those are legitimate questions about the budget.
NOVAK: Those are insulting questions.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: No. Here's a man who overcame drinking. God bless him for doing it. But he wants to cut other people who want to make the same success.
NOVAK: Every day, we learn more about why General Wes Clark was detested by his fellow officers and why his superior officer, General Hugh Shelton, has questioned Clark's integrity and character.
With his campaign not going much of anywhere, Clark today attacked his opponent, Senator John Edwards, for being anti-veterans. Clark isolated one single Edwards vote against tying extra veterans benefits to tax increases. Edwards voted exactly the same as those two intrepid friends of the veterans, Senator John McCain and Chuck Hagel.
Also today, the little general whacked front-runner John Kerry for being a Washington insider, this from a careerist who used political contacts to get his fourth star as general that was denied him through regular channels.
BEGALA: The little general. First off, this little general won a war successfully in Kosovo without losing a single American soldier. We can't say that about President Bush. And he ran an occupation in Kosovo without losing a single soldier. We can't say that about President Bush. He has distinguished himself on the field of battle. He's now in the field of political battle. And he's taken on George W. Bush and the right- wingers, and that's why you're angry with him. God bless Wes Clark.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: If you call that a war.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: What he was doing was killing Serbians from many thousands of feet in the air.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Now, as we head into a weekend of caucuses, is John Kerry the unstoppable candidate? Kerry is on top in the polls, but Howard Dean insists, he is not ready to give up the ship. We'll talk to advisers of both of those campaigns next.
And, later, one campaign's efforts to turn pie, pie, into a recipe for success.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Declaring that -- quote -- "This is the most important election in my lifetime," Congressman and former presidential candidate Dick Gephardt endorsed John Kerry today. But John Edwards, Wesley Clark and Howard Dean all have strategies that they hope will keep them going until the 10 contests on Super Tuesday, March the 2nd.
In the CROSSFIRE to debate the Democratic campaign, Dean media adviser Steve McMahon, along with campaign -- Kerry campaign senior adviser Michael Meehan.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Steve McMahon, I have depended on you to guide me through the wondrous...
STEVE MCMAHON, HOWARD DEAN CAMPAIGN MEDIA ADVISER: I've been trying to guide you, Bob, all these years.
(LAUGHTER) NOVAK: Through the wondrous world of Howard Dean.
And, in Michigan, yesterday morning Howard Dean said -- "We'll put it up on the screen -- -- quote -- "I am here. I am contesting Michigan and we want to win here. We're working our rear ends off here" -- end quote.
Today, Howard Dean left Michigan suddenly, canceling all his appointments, his scheduled dates. Was it that he left his rear end there and he couldn't find it? What happened?
MCMAHON: Well, Wisconsin is coming up, too, Bob.
And Howard's going to try to campaign in both places. He spent quite a bit of time in Michigan over the last week or so.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Then why did he cancel his dates?
MCMAHON: Well, he's -- he's -- look, we put out -- we put out a challenge or an invitation to our supporters on the Internet the other day to help us get back in the game and win Wisconsin. And they have responded overwhelmingly.
We're going to go spend a lot of time in Wisconsin. And he's committed to fighting and winning in Wisconsin. And we need to be there in order to do that. The caucuses in Michigan are tomorrow. We felt like the campaign there was in reasonably good shape and that spending an extra day there probably wasn't going to do quite as much good as spending an extra day in Wisconsin. So that's what he's doing.
BEGALA: Michael, let me ask you about your man's campaign.
John Kerry clearly wants to make the election about things like Iraq, where we've had 500 men and some women come home in body bags, or jobs, where we've had 2.5 million jobs lost under President Bush. But the right wing of the Republicans clearly want to make it about gay marriage.
In your man's home state, the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court this week said that gay marriage has to be sanctioned there. How are you going to keep the Republicans from using that issue to trump war and the economy?
MICHAEL MEEHAN, SENIOR ADVISER, JOHN KERRY CAMPAIGN: Well, John Kerry is not going to stand for gay bashing. And he hasn't his entire career.
He opposes gay marriage, but he will fight for the fundamental rights that gay men and women have, equal protection, whether it comes to health care, to inheritance benefits. He stood up in the Senate when there was political gay bashing going on and said no. And he won't stand for it. But, you know, six out of seven of those judges in Massachusetts, they're Republicans. And that's one of those little things that you pay attention, with the cheap, lazy...
BEGALA: The Dick Cheney Republicans. Dick Cheney is for civil unions. I guess he's not for marriage. But Dick Cheney is for the same position as Kerry.
MEEHAN: Right. And John Kerry has the same position as everybody else in the Democratic field.
BEGALA: Or Dean.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Michael Meehan, I want you to listen to the former governor of Vermont, Howard Dean, what he said about your candidate, Senator Kerry.
Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEAN: The truth is that those folks are also taking all that special interest money. John Kerry is a perfectly nice guy. He got more special interest money than any other senator in the last 15 years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: You know, I've been asking people from your campaign this for two weeks and nobody gives me a straight answer. They change the conduct. How do you defend that John Kerry is such a tool of the special interests? He takes all this money from them.
MEEHAN: Actually, John Kerry ranks 92nd out of 100 senators in terms of collecting special interest money. And that's in part. He doesn't take PAC money. He has not
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: He takes it from lobbyists, more than any other senator.
MEEHAN: No, actually, that's not -- that's not...
NOVAK: That's what "The Washington Post" says.
MEEHAN: It's not factually true.
In fact, in the fourth quarter of this cycle, John Kerry finished sixth in terms of money from lobbyists. George Bush finished first with $292,000.
(LAUGHTER)
MEEHAN: Howard Dean finished first on the Democratic side. John Kerry finished sixth. So, let's be clear. And it's not about whether you take the money; 99 percent of all the money that John Kerry's ever collected in 20 years...
NOVAK: So he can take it and be pure?
MEEHAN: No, it's what you do with it, whether you stand up and fight back. Do you invite them in the White House and write the laws and then go ahead try to drill the Arctic after you take all their money? No, John Kerry would not do that. And he's fought to stop George Bush and the Republicans doing that exact thing.
BEGALA: Steve, let me play you a piece of tape from your new
(CROSSTALK)
MCMAHON: Don't I get to talk about John Kerry's special interest money?
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: You can talk about
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, because I'm interested, actually, in a lobbyist named Roy Neel, one of the lobbyist who never gave money to John Kerry. He's a lobbyist who runs the Dean campaign now.
MCMAHON: Former.
BEGALA: A friend of mine. But I have to say, I think it's a big mistake to ask a lobbyist to run the outsider insurgent campaign.
But he was on CNN this morning and here's what he said about Wisconsin. Here's Roy Neel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROY NEEL, HOWARD DEAN CAMPAIGN MANAGER: We're going to win Wisconsin. I mean, the response from that appeal from Governor Dean to our supporters all over the country has been phenomenal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: So, we're going to win Wisconsin, period.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: There was some suggestion that maybe he was backing off from that.
MCMAHON: Can I go back to the ad hominem for a second and defend our friend Roy, who hasn't lobbied for quite a long time? And, as you know, he's had a long career in public service. He served under President Clinton. He served in Al Gore's Senate office and the vice president's office. And he's spent more time actually working to improve the lives of Americans, than he ever spent working outside of government.
NOVAK: Is that being in AA and a drunkard? If you haven't lobbied in a long time
(CROSSTALK)
MCMAHON: No.
NOVAK: No?
MCMAHON: No.
I'll tell you what it's like. Anybody who's been in this town any length of time has been in and out of government or in and out of television.
(LAUGHTER)
MCMAHON: And, you know, everybody's entitled to make a living. And Roy has never last his idealism, has never lost his commitment to helping folks.
BEGALA: I understand.
But if somebody were attacking talk show hosts, they ought not to hire me to run the campaign.
MCMAHON: Well, listen...
BEGALA: And Governor Dean has a perfect right to attack lobbyists.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Then he hired one to run the campaign. I just think it's a mistake.
MCMAHON: Well, but, Paul, Paul, here's what he's talking about.
He's saying, look, you can do this the old-fashioned way, like Senator Kerry's doing and President Bush is doing, and you can fund your campaign with special interest, lobbyist money. Or you can do it the way Howard Dean's doing it, with hundreds of thousands...
BEGALA: Well, that's
(CROSSTALK)
MCMAHON: Hundreds of thousands of people who are donating an average of $77.
Now, the question becomes, if you fund your campaign the old- fashioned way, who are you beholden to if you become president, vs. if you fund it with hundreds of thousands of regular people giving you $77?
NOVAK: Go ahead. You want to respond to that?
MEEHAN: Well, 99 percent of the people who have contributed to John Kerry's campaign do not lobby. And name some place where John Kerry's done something to help the lobbyists.
NOVAK: OK. I will.
MEEHAN: His vote is not bought and paid for and never has been in 20 years.
NOVAK: There was a case the AP came up with of taking a contribution from somebody and then recommending him and getting him named to the federal Home Loan Bank Court. How do you defend that?
MEEHAN: I'm not sure what you're talking about.
MCMAHON: Oh, I've got it right here. You want me to show you?
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: You saw the story.
MCMAHON: I actually do. I'll tell you what's he talking about.
(CROSSTALK)
MCMAHON: There was literally...
BEGALA: Go ahead.
MCMAHON: An appointment was made. And within a day of the appointment -- in fact, three appointments were made. But, in one instance, within a day of the appointment being made, a $1,000 check was received from the person who benefited from the letter that was written that got the appointment.
MEEHAN: Well, as you pointed many times in your campaign, John Kerry is a senator who doesn't really appoint anybody to anything. So tell me where John Kerry appointed someone.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: He recommended it. He recommended it.
MEEHAN: Oh, he recommended it. But who appointed him?
MCMAHON: Who gave him the money, is the question?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: If you get a recommendation for somebody and you get money for him, isn't that sleazy? I mean, you get money and then you recommend him for federal appointment?
MEEHAN: No, actually, what Steve's saying is the opposite of what you just said. He said he got the federal appointment and then
(CROSSTALK)
MCMAHON: In 24 hours, 24 hours.
BEGALA: Well, you know what, guys? We'll get the facts on that. Believe me, we're going to have both of you on a lot more.
But let me come back to Steve. And that is, is it Wisconsin or bust? Because that's what I was trying to get at before. Your candidate sent out an e-mail saying, basically, if we don't win Wisconsin, we're out. Then later, he called it a ploy. And so I just need to know, on the record, if you lose Wisconsin, is your man out of the race?
MCMAHON: We intend win Wisconsin. You know, as I think has been pointed out before, 339 of the 4,322 delegates that are at stake here have been picked. Howard Dean needs to do well in Wisconsin. We expect to win. But I don't think that there's a do-or-die scenario for Howard Dean. He's got to do very well.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: So it was a ploy when he said the campaign is over if we don't win?
MCMAHON: It wasn't a ploy. It wasn't a ploy.
NOVAK: Steve...
MCMAHON: It was...
NOVAK: Let me put this up on the board. A University of Wisconsin poll taken just this week -- it's not an old poll -- it's a University of Wisconsin poll, Kerry 35 percent, Clark 11 percent, Edwards 9 percent, Dean 8 percent. He's tied with Joe Lieberman, who isn't even running anymore.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: There it is. Look it up right there. Isn't that -- isn't that -- how can you say you're going to win that?
MCMAHON: We're surging, Bob.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
MCMAHON: Listen, it's going -- Howard Dean is going to be in Wisconsin. You know, three or four weeks ago, Howard Dean was leading in Wisconsin, which means that there's something about Howard Dean Wisconsin voters like. We need to remind people of what that is. We need to go back to our message.
Frankly, Senator Kerry's done a very good job with his special interest money of stealing our message and...
BEGALA: Well, we're almost out of time. Let me ask Michael about that.
Dean attacked you for supporting -- your man -- for supporting the Iraq use of force, the Patriot Act, No Child Left Behind. These are things Kerry now seem to walk away from on the campaign. Doesn't Steve have a point that your guy has adopted some of Dean's message?
MEEHAN: Well, you know, it's the wonderful thing about being a Democrat in the Democratic primary. Most of us agree on a majority of things. But campaigns are about something you have a difference of opinion on.
John Kerry and actually Howard Dean supported a measure that would have had the use of force several days before that vote happened. But here we are in 2004. And the question is, what are you going to do for voters now? Are you going to restore the three million jobs that have been lost? Are you going to have a health care plan that's -- that's affordable? And are you going to stand up when the Republicans come attacking you for being a left wing and whatever they want to attack?
And I have a candidate I work for who signed up to go to the military, went to war, prosecuted, put people away for life, and has got a record that he's going to run on and win in the fall.
MEEHAN: He got everything in. He got everything in.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Both you guys have been doing great.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Keep your seats, though. We're going to give you another shot at this in just a minute.
When we bring them back, we'll have our "Rapid Fire" section -- segment. And we just may ask these guys if a little Kerry-Dean ticket is a possibility.
And then, right after the break, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on the commission members chosen by President Bush today to review U.S. intelligence gathering.
Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to the live Washington audience, call 202-994-8CNN or e-mail us at CNN@gwu.edu. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (NEWS BREAK)
NOVAK: It's time for our "Rapid Fire," where the questions and answers need to be even shorter than the life expectancy of some of John Kerry's opponents' campaigns.
In the CROSSFIRE, Kerry campaign senior adviser Michael Meehan, Dean media adviser Steve McMahon.
BEGALA: Steve, is it possible either Dean-Kerry or Kerry-Dean? Could these two guys run together?
MCMAHON: Sure.
BEGALA: That's a straight, honest, quick answer.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: Was that fast enough?
BEGALA: That's a "Rapid Fire" record.
NOVAK: Mr. Meehan, since you adapted all of so many -- you've stolen so many of Dean's proposals, is that a good fit, Dean for vice president?
MEEHAN: Sure. Sure.
(LAUGHTER)
MCMAHON: You're going to run out of questions.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Is the fact that George W. Bush missed a year, was AWOL for a year of his National Guard duty a legitimate issue, Steve McMahon?
MCMAHON: Yes, absolutely.
NOVAK: Do you think he was a deserter?
MEEHAN: Senator Kerry thinks that those who made their choices in the '60s made their choices, and that's what they did.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Yes or no, deserter or not?
MEEHAN: I don't know.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Wes Clark might have an opinion on that, though. (LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Will Al Gore help in Tennessee or is Tennessee a lost cause for you?
MCMAHON: I don't think we know the answer to that. Al Gore, we're delighted to have his support. And we hope he's a help and we certainly are hoping for the best. If you're in Tennessee, please go vote.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: If John Kerry is nominated, haven't we seen the last of him arm in arm with Teddy Kennedy in the general election?
MEEHAN: Oh, no.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: He'll still campaign with Kennedy?
MEEHAN: Yes.
NOVAK: All right.
BEGALA: On Sunday -- we talked about this at the top of the show.
(CROSSTALK)
MCMAHON: You're out of questions, aren't you?
BEGALA: No. President Bush is going to be on "Meet the Press." What would you ask him, if you were Tim Russert?
MCMAHON: What I would ask him is, did he know, and, if so, why not, that the weapons of mass destruction excuse for war in Iraq was a myth?
NOVAK: Michael Meehan, will you criticize the appointment of the former governor of Virginia, former U.S. senator, U.S. Marine LBJ's son-in-law, Chuck Robb, or do you think it's a good appointment?
MEEHAN: One of the nine slots? Yes, it's one. It's a good appointment.
BEGALA: Do you think it was wise to appoint John McCain, who has already said he doesn't think anybody intentionally misled the American people? And the point of the commission is to find out how, whether and why Bush misled us?
MCMAHON: Well, I hope that the facts will lead John McCain to whatever conclusion they warrant. And I presume, because I have no reason to think otherwise, that they will.
NOVAK: Do you think that's a bad appointment, John McCain? MEEHAN: No. It's a good appointment.
BEGALA: Lawrence Silberman, the ultra-right-wing judge, who, again, we talked at the top of the show, was a cheerleader for some of the sleaziest anti-Clinton hate stuff.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Is he a good appointment for this position?
MCMAHON: No.
NOVAK: He's left of me, so he can't be that right-wing.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: All right, thank you very much, Michael Meehan. Thank you very much, Steve McMahon.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Next, I'll tell you how politics mixes with peanut butter pie.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: Senator John Edwards' campaign for president has tried some pretty tasteless ways to raise money. Back at Thanksgiving, they were selling a T-shirt featuring a drawing of a turkey with President Bush's head.
Now it's time for a better taste. The Edwards campaign is hawking his mother's previously secret family recipe for peanut butter pie with fudge sauce. You can get that for a minimum donation of $50. Thanks, anyway, Senator, but I'll pass.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: And for $50 million, President Bush will let you write the environmental laws of the United States.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: So it's just the same sort of thing.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak.
Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
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Aired February 6, 2004 - 16:30 ET
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(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: Will three more states mean three more wins for Senator John Kerry?
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Bring it on!
ANNOUNCER: More and more Democrats are jumping on the Kerry bandwagon.
REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D), MISSOURI: We need a leader who can defeat George Bush in November.
ANNOUNCER: But not everyone is convinced.
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We believe that people are voting for Senator Kerry without knowing anything about him.
ANNOUNCER: Is John Kerry unstoppable?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Michigan, Maine, and the state of Washington should be caucusing their way into the John Kerry column this weekend. But is it time for the Democrats there to start experiencing a little buyers' remorse?
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Well, I'll say this, Bob.
The corporate interests who bought the White House for George W. Bush, they don't have any buyers' remorse. And they're sticking us with the bill.
We will debate whether John Kerry or one of the other Democrats can return our White House to we the people in a minute. First, the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
President Bush today named seven members of the commission to investigate prewar intelligence on Iraq. One of the co-chairs, former federal Judge Lawrence Silberman was outed by former right-wing journalist David Brock as a key supporter of the right wing witch-hunt of President Clinton's sex life, even though, as a federal judge, he really wasn't supposed to be involved in politics.
Another commissioner member, Senator John McCain, has already pronounced judgment saying -- quote -- "I don't think anyone intentionally misled the American people" -- unquote. Well, I do, Senator McCain. The president misled us. He said Iraq was an urgent threat, a growing threat. Dick Cheney said it was a mortal threat. And the Bush White House repeatedly called Iraq an imminent threat.
I'll tell you what. With guys like that, this commission's starting to look like the biggest whitewash since Tom Sawyer.
NOVAK: You know, Paul, what you want is an auto defay (ph), like the Spanish Inquisition.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Those were the days.
NOVAK: Yes.
You're not really interested in finding out what happened, because John McCain, I'm telling you straight that he is no patsy for George W. Bush. And let me tell you something about Larry Silberman. That is one of the most distinguished federal jurists in America. And I'm embarrassed to be sitting with you having slurring and having canards against him by a left-wing attack man like David Brock.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Do you deny that Silberman was supportive of that whole right-wing witch-hunt?
NOVAK: He -- certainly not. And neither was I.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: A sighting on the Al Gore watch. I would have thought that the former vice president would continue to keep out of sight after Howard Dean's candidacy crashed and burned following Gore's endorsement. But Al was in New York calling the Republican Party a -- quote -- "coalition of people who fear other Americans" -- end quote.
Who's writing his stuff, Paul Begala?
(LAUGHTER) NOVAK: Gore went on for 40 unendurable minutes with similar blather, accusing George W. Bush of running the machinery of fear and comparing the president with Richard Nixon. Gore ought to know. Al Gore is the most Nixonian Democrat I've ever seen.
BEGALA: Nixonian? No, Al Gore is a great patriot.
He could have continued to drag the country on through the recount when Bush stole the election, which he did.
NOVAK: Oh.
BEGALA: Instead he gave a great patriotic speech. He has been a beacon of patriotism in opposing this president and his policies. He doesn't speak out often. But when he does, I sure listen.
NOVAK: Do you have your fingers crossed when you saying
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I think this -- it was a great speech by him.
NOVAK: You know, he gave up on the recount because he didn't have the votes.
BEGALA: On the Supreme Court, because his daddy didn't appoint the court.
NOVAK: He kept it -- he kept it on too long.
BEGALA: No. No. I think Gore did a great job. And the fact that you guys are attacking him is a good sign that he's on the right message.
NOVAK: I love...
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: ... to attack Gore.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, President Bush has agreed to do a rare one-hour interview on "Meet the Press" with Tim Russert this Sunday.
Now, look, Russert's the best. But, Mr. President, if you'll come here on CROSSFIRE for just a half-an-hour, I'll give you the questions in advance. Here they are. Why did you throw your arm around a firefighter at ground zero and then cut grants to local firefighters by 50 percent? Why do you say you honor those who wear the uniform, then produce a veterans budget so savage that the VFW calls it -- quote -- "a disgrace and a shame" -- unquote?
Why do you speak so emotionally about overcoming drinking and then cut $30 million from youth alcohol treatment? By the way, Mr. President, can you produce one person, even one, who remembers serving with you in the Alabama National Guard?
NOVAK: You know, Paul, I...
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: I know you have a lot of commitment to CROSSFIRE, that you like CROSSFIRE. You want it to succeed. We'd like to get the president.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: We'd love to have him here.
NOVAK: Well, maybe you could make a little self-sacrifice, if we get a different Democrat to sit over there. And I have a candidate, Senator Zell Miller of Georgia. If we can get him as the other
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: ... would you give it up?
BEGALA: Oh, if I can cast -- if I can cast votes for Zell in the Senate, he can have my seat on CROSSFIRE. We'll trade tomorrow. That would be a great deal. Let me cast votes as a senator from Georgia and he can run his mouth on TV. I don't Zell would make that trade.
NOVAK: See, those are mean and nasty questions?
BEGALA: Those are legitimate questions about the budget.
NOVAK: Those are insulting questions.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: No. Here's a man who overcame drinking. God bless him for doing it. But he wants to cut other people who want to make the same success.
NOVAK: Every day, we learn more about why General Wes Clark was detested by his fellow officers and why his superior officer, General Hugh Shelton, has questioned Clark's integrity and character.
With his campaign not going much of anywhere, Clark today attacked his opponent, Senator John Edwards, for being anti-veterans. Clark isolated one single Edwards vote against tying extra veterans benefits to tax increases. Edwards voted exactly the same as those two intrepid friends of the veterans, Senator John McCain and Chuck Hagel.
Also today, the little general whacked front-runner John Kerry for being a Washington insider, this from a careerist who used political contacts to get his fourth star as general that was denied him through regular channels.
BEGALA: The little general. First off, this little general won a war successfully in Kosovo without losing a single American soldier. We can't say that about President Bush. And he ran an occupation in Kosovo without losing a single soldier. We can't say that about President Bush. He has distinguished himself on the field of battle. He's now in the field of political battle. And he's taken on George W. Bush and the right- wingers, and that's why you're angry with him. God bless Wes Clark.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: If you call that a war.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: What he was doing was killing Serbians from many thousands of feet in the air.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Now, as we head into a weekend of caucuses, is John Kerry the unstoppable candidate? Kerry is on top in the polls, but Howard Dean insists, he is not ready to give up the ship. We'll talk to advisers of both of those campaigns next.
And, later, one campaign's efforts to turn pie, pie, into a recipe for success.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Declaring that -- quote -- "This is the most important election in my lifetime," Congressman and former presidential candidate Dick Gephardt endorsed John Kerry today. But John Edwards, Wesley Clark and Howard Dean all have strategies that they hope will keep them going until the 10 contests on Super Tuesday, March the 2nd.
In the CROSSFIRE to debate the Democratic campaign, Dean media adviser Steve McMahon, along with campaign -- Kerry campaign senior adviser Michael Meehan.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Steve McMahon, I have depended on you to guide me through the wondrous...
STEVE MCMAHON, HOWARD DEAN CAMPAIGN MEDIA ADVISER: I've been trying to guide you, Bob, all these years.
(LAUGHTER) NOVAK: Through the wondrous world of Howard Dean.
And, in Michigan, yesterday morning Howard Dean said -- "We'll put it up on the screen -- -- quote -- "I am here. I am contesting Michigan and we want to win here. We're working our rear ends off here" -- end quote.
Today, Howard Dean left Michigan suddenly, canceling all his appointments, his scheduled dates. Was it that he left his rear end there and he couldn't find it? What happened?
MCMAHON: Well, Wisconsin is coming up, too, Bob.
And Howard's going to try to campaign in both places. He spent quite a bit of time in Michigan over the last week or so.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Then why did he cancel his dates?
MCMAHON: Well, he's -- he's -- look, we put out -- we put out a challenge or an invitation to our supporters on the Internet the other day to help us get back in the game and win Wisconsin. And they have responded overwhelmingly.
We're going to go spend a lot of time in Wisconsin. And he's committed to fighting and winning in Wisconsin. And we need to be there in order to do that. The caucuses in Michigan are tomorrow. We felt like the campaign there was in reasonably good shape and that spending an extra day there probably wasn't going to do quite as much good as spending an extra day in Wisconsin. So that's what he's doing.
BEGALA: Michael, let me ask you about your man's campaign.
John Kerry clearly wants to make the election about things like Iraq, where we've had 500 men and some women come home in body bags, or jobs, where we've had 2.5 million jobs lost under President Bush. But the right wing of the Republicans clearly want to make it about gay marriage.
In your man's home state, the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court this week said that gay marriage has to be sanctioned there. How are you going to keep the Republicans from using that issue to trump war and the economy?
MICHAEL MEEHAN, SENIOR ADVISER, JOHN KERRY CAMPAIGN: Well, John Kerry is not going to stand for gay bashing. And he hasn't his entire career.
He opposes gay marriage, but he will fight for the fundamental rights that gay men and women have, equal protection, whether it comes to health care, to inheritance benefits. He stood up in the Senate when there was political gay bashing going on and said no. And he won't stand for it. But, you know, six out of seven of those judges in Massachusetts, they're Republicans. And that's one of those little things that you pay attention, with the cheap, lazy...
BEGALA: The Dick Cheney Republicans. Dick Cheney is for civil unions. I guess he's not for marriage. But Dick Cheney is for the same position as Kerry.
MEEHAN: Right. And John Kerry has the same position as everybody else in the Democratic field.
BEGALA: Or Dean.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Michael Meehan, I want you to listen to the former governor of Vermont, Howard Dean, what he said about your candidate, Senator Kerry.
Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEAN: The truth is that those folks are also taking all that special interest money. John Kerry is a perfectly nice guy. He got more special interest money than any other senator in the last 15 years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: You know, I've been asking people from your campaign this for two weeks and nobody gives me a straight answer. They change the conduct. How do you defend that John Kerry is such a tool of the special interests? He takes all this money from them.
MEEHAN: Actually, John Kerry ranks 92nd out of 100 senators in terms of collecting special interest money. And that's in part. He doesn't take PAC money. He has not
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: He takes it from lobbyists, more than any other senator.
MEEHAN: No, actually, that's not -- that's not...
NOVAK: That's what "The Washington Post" says.
MEEHAN: It's not factually true.
In fact, in the fourth quarter of this cycle, John Kerry finished sixth in terms of money from lobbyists. George Bush finished first with $292,000.
(LAUGHTER)
MEEHAN: Howard Dean finished first on the Democratic side. John Kerry finished sixth. So, let's be clear. And it's not about whether you take the money; 99 percent of all the money that John Kerry's ever collected in 20 years...
NOVAK: So he can take it and be pure?
MEEHAN: No, it's what you do with it, whether you stand up and fight back. Do you invite them in the White House and write the laws and then go ahead try to drill the Arctic after you take all their money? No, John Kerry would not do that. And he's fought to stop George Bush and the Republicans doing that exact thing.
BEGALA: Steve, let me play you a piece of tape from your new
(CROSSTALK)
MCMAHON: Don't I get to talk about John Kerry's special interest money?
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: You can talk about
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, because I'm interested, actually, in a lobbyist named Roy Neel, one of the lobbyist who never gave money to John Kerry. He's a lobbyist who runs the Dean campaign now.
MCMAHON: Former.
BEGALA: A friend of mine. But I have to say, I think it's a big mistake to ask a lobbyist to run the outsider insurgent campaign.
But he was on CNN this morning and here's what he said about Wisconsin. Here's Roy Neel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROY NEEL, HOWARD DEAN CAMPAIGN MANAGER: We're going to win Wisconsin. I mean, the response from that appeal from Governor Dean to our supporters all over the country has been phenomenal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: So, we're going to win Wisconsin, period.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: There was some suggestion that maybe he was backing off from that.
MCMAHON: Can I go back to the ad hominem for a second and defend our friend Roy, who hasn't lobbied for quite a long time? And, as you know, he's had a long career in public service. He served under President Clinton. He served in Al Gore's Senate office and the vice president's office. And he's spent more time actually working to improve the lives of Americans, than he ever spent working outside of government.
NOVAK: Is that being in AA and a drunkard? If you haven't lobbied in a long time
(CROSSTALK)
MCMAHON: No.
NOVAK: No?
MCMAHON: No.
I'll tell you what it's like. Anybody who's been in this town any length of time has been in and out of government or in and out of television.
(LAUGHTER)
MCMAHON: And, you know, everybody's entitled to make a living. And Roy has never last his idealism, has never lost his commitment to helping folks.
BEGALA: I understand.
But if somebody were attacking talk show hosts, they ought not to hire me to run the campaign.
MCMAHON: Well, listen...
BEGALA: And Governor Dean has a perfect right to attack lobbyists.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Then he hired one to run the campaign. I just think it's a mistake.
MCMAHON: Well, but, Paul, Paul, here's what he's talking about.
He's saying, look, you can do this the old-fashioned way, like Senator Kerry's doing and President Bush is doing, and you can fund your campaign with special interest, lobbyist money. Or you can do it the way Howard Dean's doing it, with hundreds of thousands...
BEGALA: Well, that's
(CROSSTALK)
MCMAHON: Hundreds of thousands of people who are donating an average of $77.
Now, the question becomes, if you fund your campaign the old- fashioned way, who are you beholden to if you become president, vs. if you fund it with hundreds of thousands of regular people giving you $77?
NOVAK: Go ahead. You want to respond to that?
MEEHAN: Well, 99 percent of the people who have contributed to John Kerry's campaign do not lobby. And name some place where John Kerry's done something to help the lobbyists.
NOVAK: OK. I will.
MEEHAN: His vote is not bought and paid for and never has been in 20 years.
NOVAK: There was a case the AP came up with of taking a contribution from somebody and then recommending him and getting him named to the federal Home Loan Bank Court. How do you defend that?
MEEHAN: I'm not sure what you're talking about.
MCMAHON: Oh, I've got it right here. You want me to show you?
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: You saw the story.
MCMAHON: I actually do. I'll tell you what's he talking about.
(CROSSTALK)
MCMAHON: There was literally...
BEGALA: Go ahead.
MCMAHON: An appointment was made. And within a day of the appointment -- in fact, three appointments were made. But, in one instance, within a day of the appointment being made, a $1,000 check was received from the person who benefited from the letter that was written that got the appointment.
MEEHAN: Well, as you pointed many times in your campaign, John Kerry is a senator who doesn't really appoint anybody to anything. So tell me where John Kerry appointed someone.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: He recommended it. He recommended it.
MEEHAN: Oh, he recommended it. But who appointed him?
MCMAHON: Who gave him the money, is the question?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: If you get a recommendation for somebody and you get money for him, isn't that sleazy? I mean, you get money and then you recommend him for federal appointment?
MEEHAN: No, actually, what Steve's saying is the opposite of what you just said. He said he got the federal appointment and then
(CROSSTALK)
MCMAHON: In 24 hours, 24 hours.
BEGALA: Well, you know what, guys? We'll get the facts on that. Believe me, we're going to have both of you on a lot more.
But let me come back to Steve. And that is, is it Wisconsin or bust? Because that's what I was trying to get at before. Your candidate sent out an e-mail saying, basically, if we don't win Wisconsin, we're out. Then later, he called it a ploy. And so I just need to know, on the record, if you lose Wisconsin, is your man out of the race?
MCMAHON: We intend win Wisconsin. You know, as I think has been pointed out before, 339 of the 4,322 delegates that are at stake here have been picked. Howard Dean needs to do well in Wisconsin. We expect to win. But I don't think that there's a do-or-die scenario for Howard Dean. He's got to do very well.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: So it was a ploy when he said the campaign is over if we don't win?
MCMAHON: It wasn't a ploy. It wasn't a ploy.
NOVAK: Steve...
MCMAHON: It was...
NOVAK: Let me put this up on the board. A University of Wisconsin poll taken just this week -- it's not an old poll -- it's a University of Wisconsin poll, Kerry 35 percent, Clark 11 percent, Edwards 9 percent, Dean 8 percent. He's tied with Joe Lieberman, who isn't even running anymore.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: There it is. Look it up right there. Isn't that -- isn't that -- how can you say you're going to win that?
MCMAHON: We're surging, Bob.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
MCMAHON: Listen, it's going -- Howard Dean is going to be in Wisconsin. You know, three or four weeks ago, Howard Dean was leading in Wisconsin, which means that there's something about Howard Dean Wisconsin voters like. We need to remind people of what that is. We need to go back to our message.
Frankly, Senator Kerry's done a very good job with his special interest money of stealing our message and...
BEGALA: Well, we're almost out of time. Let me ask Michael about that.
Dean attacked you for supporting -- your man -- for supporting the Iraq use of force, the Patriot Act, No Child Left Behind. These are things Kerry now seem to walk away from on the campaign. Doesn't Steve have a point that your guy has adopted some of Dean's message?
MEEHAN: Well, you know, it's the wonderful thing about being a Democrat in the Democratic primary. Most of us agree on a majority of things. But campaigns are about something you have a difference of opinion on.
John Kerry and actually Howard Dean supported a measure that would have had the use of force several days before that vote happened. But here we are in 2004. And the question is, what are you going to do for voters now? Are you going to restore the three million jobs that have been lost? Are you going to have a health care plan that's -- that's affordable? And are you going to stand up when the Republicans come attacking you for being a left wing and whatever they want to attack?
And I have a candidate I work for who signed up to go to the military, went to war, prosecuted, put people away for life, and has got a record that he's going to run on and win in the fall.
MEEHAN: He got everything in. He got everything in.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Both you guys have been doing great.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Keep your seats, though. We're going to give you another shot at this in just a minute.
When we bring them back, we'll have our "Rapid Fire" section -- segment. And we just may ask these guys if a little Kerry-Dean ticket is a possibility.
And then, right after the break, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on the commission members chosen by President Bush today to review U.S. intelligence gathering.
Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to the live Washington audience, call 202-994-8CNN or e-mail us at CNN@gwu.edu. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (NEWS BREAK)
NOVAK: It's time for our "Rapid Fire," where the questions and answers need to be even shorter than the life expectancy of some of John Kerry's opponents' campaigns.
In the CROSSFIRE, Kerry campaign senior adviser Michael Meehan, Dean media adviser Steve McMahon.
BEGALA: Steve, is it possible either Dean-Kerry or Kerry-Dean? Could these two guys run together?
MCMAHON: Sure.
BEGALA: That's a straight, honest, quick answer.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: Was that fast enough?
BEGALA: That's a "Rapid Fire" record.
NOVAK: Mr. Meehan, since you adapted all of so many -- you've stolen so many of Dean's proposals, is that a good fit, Dean for vice president?
MEEHAN: Sure. Sure.
(LAUGHTER)
MCMAHON: You're going to run out of questions.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Is the fact that George W. Bush missed a year, was AWOL for a year of his National Guard duty a legitimate issue, Steve McMahon?
MCMAHON: Yes, absolutely.
NOVAK: Do you think he was a deserter?
MEEHAN: Senator Kerry thinks that those who made their choices in the '60s made their choices, and that's what they did.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Yes or no, deserter or not?
MEEHAN: I don't know.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Wes Clark might have an opinion on that, though. (LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Will Al Gore help in Tennessee or is Tennessee a lost cause for you?
MCMAHON: I don't think we know the answer to that. Al Gore, we're delighted to have his support. And we hope he's a help and we certainly are hoping for the best. If you're in Tennessee, please go vote.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: If John Kerry is nominated, haven't we seen the last of him arm in arm with Teddy Kennedy in the general election?
MEEHAN: Oh, no.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: He'll still campaign with Kennedy?
MEEHAN: Yes.
NOVAK: All right.
BEGALA: On Sunday -- we talked about this at the top of the show.
(CROSSTALK)
MCMAHON: You're out of questions, aren't you?
BEGALA: No. President Bush is going to be on "Meet the Press." What would you ask him, if you were Tim Russert?
MCMAHON: What I would ask him is, did he know, and, if so, why not, that the weapons of mass destruction excuse for war in Iraq was a myth?
NOVAK: Michael Meehan, will you criticize the appointment of the former governor of Virginia, former U.S. senator, U.S. Marine LBJ's son-in-law, Chuck Robb, or do you think it's a good appointment?
MEEHAN: One of the nine slots? Yes, it's one. It's a good appointment.
BEGALA: Do you think it was wise to appoint John McCain, who has already said he doesn't think anybody intentionally misled the American people? And the point of the commission is to find out how, whether and why Bush misled us?
MCMAHON: Well, I hope that the facts will lead John McCain to whatever conclusion they warrant. And I presume, because I have no reason to think otherwise, that they will.
NOVAK: Do you think that's a bad appointment, John McCain? MEEHAN: No. It's a good appointment.
BEGALA: Lawrence Silberman, the ultra-right-wing judge, who, again, we talked at the top of the show, was a cheerleader for some of the sleaziest anti-Clinton hate stuff.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Is he a good appointment for this position?
MCMAHON: No.
NOVAK: He's left of me, so he can't be that right-wing.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: All right, thank you very much, Michael Meehan. Thank you very much, Steve McMahon.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Next, I'll tell you how politics mixes with peanut butter pie.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: Senator John Edwards' campaign for president has tried some pretty tasteless ways to raise money. Back at Thanksgiving, they were selling a T-shirt featuring a drawing of a turkey with President Bush's head.
Now it's time for a better taste. The Edwards campaign is hawking his mother's previously secret family recipe for peanut butter pie with fudge sauce. You can get that for a minimum donation of $50. Thanks, anyway, Senator, but I'll pass.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: And for $50 million, President Bush will let you write the environmental laws of the United States.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: So it's just the same sort of thing.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak.
Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
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