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CNN Crossfire
President Bush Meets the Press
Aired February 09, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: He survived "Meet the Press." Today, he meets the voters, talking jobs and trying to keep his own.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When they say, we're going to repeal Bush's tax cuts, that means they're going to raise your taxes. And that's wrong. And that's bad economics.
ANNOUNCER: The Democrats are turning up the volume.
AL GORE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He betrayed this country!
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: And it looks like, pretty soon, they may have a nominee.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Amen. Yes, indeed. Amen.
ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Amen. Amen.
Oh, welcome to CROSSFIRE. Senator John Kerry went three for three in the weekend caucuses. Polls indicate, he'll go two for two in tomorrow's primaries. President Bush must be getting worried. He went on "Meet the Press" yesterday.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Well, nominate in haste. Regret at leisure. We'll debate the prospects of the Democrats getting clobbered and the president getting four more years.
But, first, the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert." Well, since September 11, you have often heard Democrats whine that whenever they criticize this administration's foreign policy, they are called unpatriotic. That is a lie. Over the past two years, no elected Republican has attacked his political opponents as unpatriotic or un-American, not one. Instead, the patriotism- mongering has come exclusively from the left.
Democrat after Democrat has accused George W. Bush of being not simply a bad president, but a bad American. Terry McAuliffe, the Democratic chairman, accused Bush of being AWOL from his military service, which is a crime. Now former Vice President Al Gore has gone all the way. During a speech yesterday, Gore called the president a traitor -- quote -- "He betrayed the country," Gore screamed.
This is too far. It is fascist slogan-mongering, something Joe McCarthy would have done. Democrats ought to be ashamed of themselves and they should stop it right now. And they should. That's disgusting.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Well, you know what? let me say this.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: To question a man's patriotism, it's outrageous.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Based on what I know, he was AWOL from National Guard duty.
CARLSON: No, but to call someone a traitor, James.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You know, look, it's only a presidential election. You don't need to torque it up that high.
CARVILLE: We now -- we now -- we now -- we now know that President Bush was told, caveat, that we wasn't sure about this -- I'll talk about it today.
CARLSON: Are you defending calling him a traitor to his nation?
CARVILLE: I don't think he was a traitor.
CARLSON: Oh, my God.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I think he led the country down the wrong path. But history -- history will determine as facts come out.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: But you're making the point that I've mentioned.
CARVILLE: I don't think the facts have come out yet.
CARLSON: Don't call him a traitor. That's an outrage.
CARVILLE: OK.
CARLSON: And you ought to be ashamed of that.
CARVILLE: Yesterday, President Bush said he would be willing to meet hand -- with his hand-picked commission to figure out why not a single claim he made about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction has turned out to be true.
To co-chair this commission, President Bush chose Judge Lawrence Silberman, a right-wing hack who makes Ken Starr look nonpartisan. As a Reagan Bush campaign official, Silberman met with Iranians to discuss the release of hostages in return for arms,. Then later, as a judge, he reversed the felony conviction of Oliver North for his role in Iran-Contra.
If President Bush actually wanted answers, he'd have someone asking questions. Of course, we all know the real problem with Iraq intelligence occurred somewhere between President Bush's desk and his mouth, because he made Iraq sound a lot more like a threat than it actually was. Appointing Lawrence Silberman to head this commission does show one thing, though. It's a lot easier to rig a jury when you've already got the judge.
CARLSON: You know, I think...
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I mean, look, you -- you didn't agree with the war in Iraq. There's no reason to attack a decent, intelligent guy like Judge Silberman as a hack.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... an intelligent guy. He is a right -- he is really a hack.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's an awful thing to say.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He's a bad man. He's a bad man.
CARLSON: Do you know him?
CARVILLE: No, I know everything about him.
CARLSON: Where are you going?
CARVILLE: All he wanted to do was investigate Clinton's sex life.
CARLSON: You know
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: If they want to find out something about Iraq, find a sexual fact in there and Lawrence Silberman will go crazy.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: You know what, James?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He is a sex-obsessed, scummy guy who is nothing but a partisan hack. You hear that?
CARLSON: You know what?
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: Call me unpatriotic.
CARLSON: I have to say, it's disgusting what you said.
CARVILLE: Attack me. It's not disgusting. It's true.
CARLSON: It is disgusting. It's totally wrong to say that.
CARVILLE: I'm proud of it. I'm very proud I said the .
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: If you disagree with the president, argue it.
CARVILLE: I'm proud of it.
CARLSON: Instead, you attack him.
CARVILLE: I'm so proud I said that about Lawrence Silberman. You're a right-wing hack.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: You ought to be ashamed.
CARVILLE: I'm proud.
CARLSON: Well, at the end -- in the end, the 2004 presidential race won't be fought over the economy or gay marriage or drilling for oil in ANWR. It will be decided by the following question: Which party takes the war on terror more seriously? Well, with that in mind, consider this. In 1999, Wesley Clark was the American general in charge of the war in Kosovo. According to an official statement Clark gave to a NATO historian, these are the precise instructions he received from Bill Clinton's White House that year, 1999 -- quote -- "Hey, you've got to finish the bombing before the Fourth of July weekend. That's the start of the next presidential campaign," Gore's campaign. "So stop it. It doesn't matter what you do, just turn it off. You don't have to win this thing. Let it die" -- end quote.
"You don't have to win this thing," that's the official line from the Democratic White House, just so a Democrat could be elected. Can you even imagine that? With that in mind, vote this November.
CARVILLE: You know what? They won the war. And you know what?
CARLSON: You know...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: And they didn't lie to the American people, like this administration did.
CARLSON: No, James, are you going to defend that?
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: You're not covering up for this administration anymore. The noose of history is around the neck of this administration.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm not covering up. Are you going to defend that, telling them to stop the bombing for Al Gore?
CARVILLE: I don't know what he said. But then he came back and said he didn't say it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: We won that war.
CARLSON: So he is lying? Is that what you're saying?
CARVILLE: We leveled with the American people. I don't know.
CARLSON: Address what I just said.
CARVILLE: Who won the Kosovo war?
CARLSON: Is he lying, Wes Clark?
CARVILLE: I don't know what he was doing.
CARLSON: That he came under political pressure from Bill Clinton's White House?
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: I don't know what he was doing. Bill Clinton won the war. Bill Clinton won this war.
I thought I'd report on the most important story written since the end of the Iraq war, one you'll never see. In Saturday's "Washington Post," Dana Priest and Walter Pincus write that Bush and his top advisers repeatedly ignored all of the caveats and qualifiers that the CIA's classified report on Saddam Hussein's weapons -- let me give you an example. In August, Dick Cheney said that Saddam Hussein would give chemical or biological weapons to terrorists. It turns out, the report actually said that Saddam Hussein would give weapons to terrorists only if he was attacked and faced annihilation.
I don't know about you, but there's something I'd like to know before we were attacked. Either out of stupidity or cover for the stupidity of this war-supporting editorial page, this story was relegated to page A-17. At lunch at the Palm today, people were joking that Walter Pincus had a new middle name. It's Walter "A-17" Pincus. Maybe, one day, Walter, "The Post" will wise up and get you back on the front page.
CARLSON: Well, this just shows that you have no idea what you're talking about, James. Actually, no report can predict the actions of another government. So, to say that the report said that Saddam may do this or may not do that, that is all purely subjective, OK?
CARVILLE: That's what the report said.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No, no. Actually, the report guessed, as all reports do.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's the nature of intelligence. So, for you to say, the Bush administration ignored this report, that's merely their assessment. The Bush administration came to a separate assessment.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: They may have been wrong. But the idea that it was a cover-up is ridiculous.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And outrageous
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: They didn't...
(BELL RINGING) CARVILLE: They didn't tell the American people all the things that they did. They lied to the American people. It's simple. What are we talking about?
CARLSON: OK.
Well, President Bush meets the press and addresses his critics. How will it play with the voters? Let the campaign begin. We'll hear next from supporters of the president and Democrat John Kerry.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Well, after enduring months of rabid, nonstop pounding and foaming from the mouth from his Democratic opponents, President Bush is finally engaged. Yesterday, on "Meet the Press," the president told Tim Russert that he has a clear vision for the country and looks forward to what he called a good campaign.
Well, if the Democrats have all but formally settled on John Kerry as their candidate, let that campaign begin right now. In the CROSSFIRE is Kerry supporter and Massachusetts Congressman Marty Meehan, who joins us from Boston. And right here in Washington is California Republican Congressman David Dreier.
Welcome.
REP. DAVID DREIER (R), CALIFORNIA: Nice to be here.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Congressman, always good to have you here.
Let's go right to the videotape, as they say in the trade. Let's listen to Tim Russert and President Bush here.
DREIER: OK. That looks like Meehan.
CARVILLE: It does.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "MEET THE PRESS")
TIM RUSSERT, HOST: ... pay stubs, tax records, anything to show that you were serving during that period?
BUSH: Yes. We still have them. But, you know, the records are kept in Colorado, as I understand. And they scoured the records. And I'm just telling you, I did my duty. And it's politics that, you know, kind of ascribe all kinds of motives to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: Now, Congressman, if the IRS has that, would you recommend to the president that he write a letter to his IRS commissioner and say, would you please release my tax return from 1972, so we can get this little issue out of the way and get to the big issues of this campaign, the deficit, why we found no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, the savaging of the environment, and really get to the things that really matter to the American people? Should he do that?
DREIER: Well, the president obviously wants to focus on the issues that really matter to the American people.
And I will tell you, the kind of division that has come from this issue of military duty -- and the fact of the matter is, I mean, I will tell you, it's really incredible if you go back 12 years and look at what John Kerry said about the issue of military duty, when it had to do with a guy you were close to.
CARVILLE: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: And what he said is, he said, getting into this issue was divisive and he didn't believe that we should be divisive on it.
And so -- and this campaign is not about where people were and what they were doing three decades ago. It's about what kind of leadership is being provided, are we, in fact, getting this economy going, are we beginning the war on terrorism.
CARVILLE: Name me three Republicans in 19...
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Name me three Republicans in 1992, when President, then candidate, Governor Clinton, as I was his campaign manager was being savaged on the draft, name me three Republicans who said, this is really not about what happened when Bill Clinton was in college; this is about America? Name me three off the top.
DREIER: Well, you're looking at one of them right here. I focused on the issues.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
DREIER: Let me just tell you, I focused on the issues then, James. And I believe that was the right thing to do.
CARVILLE: Did you say
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: But I will tell you, it's very interesting. It's interesting. CARLSON: What year is this?
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: It's interesting.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: That's 12 years ago.
CARLSON: Gentlemen, I'm sorry to interrupt.
DREIER: John Kerry is -- John Kerry is the guy who, 12 years ago, said we shouldn't be divisive. And now he's being that.
CARLSON: Congressman Meehan, I want to bring you in. You heard Congressman Dreier refer repeatedly to John Kerry's quote from '92.
Let me just read a selection of it. I'm quoting now. This is February 27, 1992: "We do not need more division" on this issue. "We certainly do not need something as complex and emotional as Vietnam reduced to simple campaign rhetoric." Twelve years later, of course, he has reduced the issue to simple campaign rhetoric and is attacking this president for being unaccounted for during his National Guard service.
Isn't this a revolting, disgusting issue? Shouldn't you be ashamed that your fellow Democrats are engaging in it? And, by the way, where were you in Vietnam?
REP. MARTY MEEHAN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Well, first...
(LAUGHTER)
MEEHAN: Well, first, I was a little young for Vietnam, Tucker.
But, look, John Kerry's going to run on his record. And part of his record is a great war record in Vietnam. He served with distinction. He won medals in Vietnam. And, frankly, it's more than that. It's also making sure that we have a president that takes care of veterans, a president that's willing to take care of the reservists and the National Guard who are serving.
Senator Kerry is willing and able to do that. So, I think it's natural that people are going to look at the records of both candidates.
CARLSON: Congressman, I understand. I understand that. Absolutely. And I understand there are broader issue, but let's just talk about this one specific issue.
John Kerry and the head of your party, Terry McAuliffe, have both zeroed in on this question of where Bush was for that one year in the National Guard. Is this a legitimate thing to do, to attack the president, claiming he was AWOL, when there's no evidence there was? DREIER: Well, Marty just -- you just answered the question, Marty, by saying, no. You said that John Kerry wants to focus on the future.
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: Listen, the president can solve this -- the president can solve this by simply releasing the records. That would -- he should release the records.
(APPLAUSE)
MEEHAN: The problem the president has -- the reason the president has a problem on this is because he's never settled the issue from four years ago. And it becomes not such an issue of whether he served or not, but whether he's fully telling the truth about his service.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: He's clearly doing it.
Let me tell just say, the issue has been settled time and time again. As he said in his interview with Tim Russert, this first came up in his first campaign. He ran a quarter of a century ago and people talked about it. They talked about it when he right now for governor. This is the only thing
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: He should release the records. He should release the records.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I'm going to ask -- I'm going to ask this simple thing. Why doesn't he write to the IRS commissioner and release his '72 tax return, and we'll see how many meetings he went to? What's the problem? Let's get it behind us. Why don't we just be forward?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: What's the problem with a simple letter to the IRS commissioner and ask him to release
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: You're absolutely right, James.
CARVILLE: Thank you.
DREIER: We need to focus forward. And that's really what we're trying to do.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Do you think he should write this letter?
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: We're trying to focus forward.
CARVILLE: Do you think he should write the letter?
DREIER: You know what? The president has put this issue behind him. It's been asked time and time again. I think, form from perspective, it's a campaign that is about the future and not about
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: In Louisiana, in Louisiana, this is called shucking and jiving.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Now, Congressman...
CARVILLE: This is a man who doesn't want to ask a -- answer a question.
DREIER: I learned it from you, James.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I want to read you a quote.
DREIER: You're a great teacher, James.
CARLSON: I want to read you a quote from a speech that was given on the floor of the United States Congress on October 9, 2002, before we went to war in Iraq. Here's just part of the speech.
I'm quoting now. "We now know that, sometimes, our nation must act to prevent that which may happen in the future, which brings us to Saddam Hussein and Iraq's pursuit of weapons of mass destruction. Saddam has a unique blend of state-sponsored terror that threatens the world like no other. Unchecked, he pursues chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons and has demonstrated the capacity to use them."
That was you speaking on the floor of the House of Representatives.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: I wonder now that we know what we know whether you need to apologize to America for misleading it and/or resign.
MEEHAN: Look, we have learned a lot since then.
(APPLAUSE)
MEEHAN: That, in fact the president -- the president has -- the president -- the president has not -- we saw his interview on Sunday.
The fact is, the president, apparently, we didn't have weapons of mass destruction over there. Here the president represented to the Congress, the secretary of state represented to the Congress that there were weapons of mass destruction.
CARLSON: But, Congressman, so did you. Wait, wait, wait.
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: We rely on a president to provide the intelligence and provide the information, which he didn't do.
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: The other thing about the resolution that we voted on -- let -- the resolution required the president to go to the United Nations and to bring the world together before he took military action. He should have done what we required in the resolution.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Can I ask you a question, as a fellow Democrat? You believed President Bush in September, when you went on the floor of the House, didn't you?
MEEHAN: I did. I believed...
CARVILLE: You believed the president of the United States?
MEEHAN: I believed -- I believed the president. And I also believed Secretary of State Colin Powell.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Can I ask a question, please?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... and demagogue and...
CARVILLE: Will you believe this president again, just take him on his word, without any proof?
DREIER: Shuck and jive.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: James...
MEEHAN: I will never -- I will never believe this president without any proof. I don't think anybody in the world will.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Congressman, you had access to information, to intelligence information, that every member of Congress did. Not all voted for the war. But you did. You're not apologizing. You're simply saying, "I was wrong." But, somehow, the president is more responsible than that. He lied, in your estimation. I don't understand the argument you're making.
MEEHAN: Look, the president brought all -- the president brought all the members into the White House and he told the members of Congress, we know that they have weapons of mass destruction. He brought in the head of the CIA, who said, we know they had weapons of -- those are the briefings that we received. And now we find no weapons of mass destruction.
DREIER: Marty, let me ask
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: There were a lot of good reasons. There may have been good reasons to go in and take out Saddam Hussein. But we have an obligation, the United States of America and the president, to tell the truth about why we're going to go
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: And that's exactly what's happening.
I will tell you, Marty, it wasn't just the president of the United States who provided these briefings. You got them. I got them. We regularly had top-secret briefings on the floor of the House. We obviously had access to information that the president had access to.
MEEHAN: And they were wrong.
DREIER: And we came to the same conclusion.
No. The fact of the matter is, if you look at the last couple of decades...
(APPLAUSE)
DREIER: If you look at the last couple of decades, it's very clear, Porter Goss, the chairman of the Intelligence Committee, pointed out yesterday, during the mid-1990s, we saw double-digit cuts in human intelligence.
And the director of central intelligence, James Woolsey, who quit out of frustration, because he couldn't meet with President Clinton, the joke was, when that plane flew into the White House, he was simply trying to get an appointment with President Clinton. The fact of the matter is, during the 1990s, we saw a diminution of our intelligence. This president has been increasing it.
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: The United States of America has to be correct. The United States of America has to be correct when we take unilateral action.
DREIER: Absolutely. And that's what we're working on.
CARLSON: Congressman Meehan...
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: In this instance, it wasn't.
DREIER: And, Marty, that conclusion can't be drawn yet.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Congressman Meehan, I admire you, because you live by the adage, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. You're a man that's not going to be fooled by this administration again.
Congressman Dreier, this is the cover of "TIME" magazine. "Does Bush Have a Credibility Gap?" In a poll, only 44 percent of Americans describe the president as honest and trustworthy.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: What can he do to get his good name back? What can he do?
DREIER: Let me just tell you exactly...
CARVILLE: What can he do to restore trust in him?
DREIER: James, let me just tell you exactly the way that exists.
We just saw the clip before Marty and I came on here of Al Gore doing a great impression of Howard Dean. He used terms...
(LAUGHTER)
DREIER: Listen.
(APPLAUSE)
DREIER: Let me -- and James, when I -- when I listen to you use terms like traitor, when I listen to you -- hear you use these...
CARVILLE: I didn't say anything like that.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Actually, you did.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: You did say that, James. You did use that
(CROSSTALK) DREIER: But as that kind of stuff goes on, of course, there's a credibility gap.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm going to have to -- I'm going to have to cut you off on that low note. We're going to take a quick commercial break.
When we return, we'll put our guests into "Rapid Fire."
And right after the break, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on why authorities in Iraq are so concerned about a message they intercepted which may be on its way to leaders of al Qaeda.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
CARVILLE: It's time for "Rapid Fire." We ask short questions and our guests answers don't get a second turn.
Joining us from Watertown, Massachusetts, is Congressman Marty Meehan, a John Kerry supporter. And with us here is California Republican Congressman David Dreier.
CARLSON: Congressman Meehan, in a speech yesterday, former Vice President Al Gore accused President George W. Bush of being a traitor. He said, "He betrayed his country" -- quote.
Will you please distance yourself from that allegation?
MEEHAN: He didn't call him a traitor. He said he betrayed his country because he didn't come clean on what the intelligence was.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: A traitor, Congressman, is someone who betrays his country.
MEEHAN: In addition to that, Tucker, the fact of the matter is, this president won't take responsibility.
CARLSON: You're defending that
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: On one hand, on Sunday, he's not taking responsibility for the mistakes that he made.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Let the record show
(CROSSTALK) DREIER: So Marty is joining this gang of calling him a traitor. Let's understand.
CARVILLE: Congressman, you're a great fiscal conservative. The president said his Medicare billion was $400 billion. Now it's $540 billion. What do you think it will be next week?
DREIER: You know what? I'll tell you something.
CARVILLE: Huh?
DREIER: Getting prescription drugs to senior citizens was our priority.
CARVILLE: Right.
DREIER: Doing it in the most cost-effective way is the right thing to do.
CARVILLE: Right.
DREIER: And you know what? We've had different projections. It's possible that it could be less than that, James.
CARVILLE: It's possible it could be more.
DREIER: And it is possible -- it is possible that it could be more. But you know what?
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: This is something the American people wanted.
CARVILLE: Why didn't you tell us the price tag?
DREIER: As the president said in his interview yesterday, he wanted to bring this town together. And, on this issue, Democrats clearly should have been more supportive, other than the two senators who did help us out.
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: The American people did not ask -- the American people did not ask you to cut a deal with the pharmaceutical industry. We ought to be
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Congressman Meehan, we're almost out of time.
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: ... not a deal with the pharmaceutical industry.
CARLSON: I know. It's
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I'll bet Congressman Meehan is a great man.
CARLSON: Congressman Meehan, I never ask a question twice. I just want to be absolutely clear. You believe George W. Bush is a traitor who betrayed his country? You didn't distance yourself from that. I want to ask you again.
MEEHAN: No.
What I said is -- what I said is, on the clip that I saw, I saw former Vice President Gore simply say that, when a president says one thing and then says something completely different on the issue of when we go to war, that's betraying the American people.
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: I only saw the clip that you showed me. I thought the president's performance -- I thought the president's performance with Tim Russert...
(BELL RINGING)
MEEHAN: ... was an embarrassment.
DREIER: Is he a traitor?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: OK. We'll discuss who's being embarrassed at a later date.
Congressman Meehan, thanks a lot for joining us from outside Boston.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Congressman Dreier, thank you very much. We appreciate it.
Next, have the Grammys gone political? Of course they have. The question is by how much. We'll tell you why some big-name politicians were being talked about at last night's award show.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Unlike the half time show at the Super Bowl, last night's Grammy Awards merely featured bare-naked politics.
Doubtless, you recognize the music. Coldplay's song "Clocks" won record of the year, something that inspired band member Chris Martin to wax political. Here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS MARTIN, COLDPLAY: Thank you. And we'd like to dedicate this to Johnny Cash and to John Kerry, who hopefully will be your president one day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Sure thing, Chris.
But the award for the most nauseating political suck-up was handed out in the heretofore unknown category of -- quote -- "best spoken word album for children," whatever that is. The Grammy went to -- we're not making this up -- a recording of "Peter and the Wolf," with the wolf tracks that featured Sophia Loren, Mikhail Gorbachev and Bill Clinton. And so there is the Clinton legacy for you, the wolf tracks on "Peter and the Wolf."
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He brought us our greatest era of prosperity, when he told the truth and we didn't lie to get in any wars. And, by the way, he can read a hell of a children's book.
Way to go, Mr. President. You're the greatest president we ever had.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: He's a great kids book reader.
CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now. Have a great night.
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Aired February 9, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: He survived "Meet the Press." Today, he meets the voters, talking jobs and trying to keep his own.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When they say, we're going to repeal Bush's tax cuts, that means they're going to raise your taxes. And that's wrong. And that's bad economics.
ANNOUNCER: The Democrats are turning up the volume.
AL GORE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He betrayed this country!
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: And it looks like, pretty soon, they may have a nominee.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Amen. Yes, indeed. Amen.
ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Amen. Amen.
Oh, welcome to CROSSFIRE. Senator John Kerry went three for three in the weekend caucuses. Polls indicate, he'll go two for two in tomorrow's primaries. President Bush must be getting worried. He went on "Meet the Press" yesterday.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Well, nominate in haste. Regret at leisure. We'll debate the prospects of the Democrats getting clobbered and the president getting four more years.
But, first, the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert." Well, since September 11, you have often heard Democrats whine that whenever they criticize this administration's foreign policy, they are called unpatriotic. That is a lie. Over the past two years, no elected Republican has attacked his political opponents as unpatriotic or un-American, not one. Instead, the patriotism- mongering has come exclusively from the left.
Democrat after Democrat has accused George W. Bush of being not simply a bad president, but a bad American. Terry McAuliffe, the Democratic chairman, accused Bush of being AWOL from his military service, which is a crime. Now former Vice President Al Gore has gone all the way. During a speech yesterday, Gore called the president a traitor -- quote -- "He betrayed the country," Gore screamed.
This is too far. It is fascist slogan-mongering, something Joe McCarthy would have done. Democrats ought to be ashamed of themselves and they should stop it right now. And they should. That's disgusting.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Well, you know what? let me say this.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: To question a man's patriotism, it's outrageous.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Based on what I know, he was AWOL from National Guard duty.
CARLSON: No, but to call someone a traitor, James.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You know, look, it's only a presidential election. You don't need to torque it up that high.
CARVILLE: We now -- we now -- we now -- we now know that President Bush was told, caveat, that we wasn't sure about this -- I'll talk about it today.
CARLSON: Are you defending calling him a traitor to his nation?
CARVILLE: I don't think he was a traitor.
CARLSON: Oh, my God.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I think he led the country down the wrong path. But history -- history will determine as facts come out.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: But you're making the point that I've mentioned.
CARVILLE: I don't think the facts have come out yet.
CARLSON: Don't call him a traitor. That's an outrage.
CARVILLE: OK.
CARLSON: And you ought to be ashamed of that.
CARVILLE: Yesterday, President Bush said he would be willing to meet hand -- with his hand-picked commission to figure out why not a single claim he made about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction has turned out to be true.
To co-chair this commission, President Bush chose Judge Lawrence Silberman, a right-wing hack who makes Ken Starr look nonpartisan. As a Reagan Bush campaign official, Silberman met with Iranians to discuss the release of hostages in return for arms,. Then later, as a judge, he reversed the felony conviction of Oliver North for his role in Iran-Contra.
If President Bush actually wanted answers, he'd have someone asking questions. Of course, we all know the real problem with Iraq intelligence occurred somewhere between President Bush's desk and his mouth, because he made Iraq sound a lot more like a threat than it actually was. Appointing Lawrence Silberman to head this commission does show one thing, though. It's a lot easier to rig a jury when you've already got the judge.
CARLSON: You know, I think...
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I mean, look, you -- you didn't agree with the war in Iraq. There's no reason to attack a decent, intelligent guy like Judge Silberman as a hack.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... an intelligent guy. He is a right -- he is really a hack.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's an awful thing to say.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He's a bad man. He's a bad man.
CARLSON: Do you know him?
CARVILLE: No, I know everything about him.
CARLSON: Where are you going?
CARVILLE: All he wanted to do was investigate Clinton's sex life.
CARLSON: You know
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: If they want to find out something about Iraq, find a sexual fact in there and Lawrence Silberman will go crazy.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: You know what, James?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He is a sex-obsessed, scummy guy who is nothing but a partisan hack. You hear that?
CARLSON: You know what?
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: Call me unpatriotic.
CARLSON: I have to say, it's disgusting what you said.
CARVILLE: Attack me. It's not disgusting. It's true.
CARLSON: It is disgusting. It's totally wrong to say that.
CARVILLE: I'm proud of it. I'm very proud I said the .
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: If you disagree with the president, argue it.
CARVILLE: I'm proud of it.
CARLSON: Instead, you attack him.
CARVILLE: I'm so proud I said that about Lawrence Silberman. You're a right-wing hack.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: You ought to be ashamed.
CARVILLE: I'm proud.
CARLSON: Well, at the end -- in the end, the 2004 presidential race won't be fought over the economy or gay marriage or drilling for oil in ANWR. It will be decided by the following question: Which party takes the war on terror more seriously? Well, with that in mind, consider this. In 1999, Wesley Clark was the American general in charge of the war in Kosovo. According to an official statement Clark gave to a NATO historian, these are the precise instructions he received from Bill Clinton's White House that year, 1999 -- quote -- "Hey, you've got to finish the bombing before the Fourth of July weekend. That's the start of the next presidential campaign," Gore's campaign. "So stop it. It doesn't matter what you do, just turn it off. You don't have to win this thing. Let it die" -- end quote.
"You don't have to win this thing," that's the official line from the Democratic White House, just so a Democrat could be elected. Can you even imagine that? With that in mind, vote this November.
CARVILLE: You know what? They won the war. And you know what?
CARLSON: You know...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: And they didn't lie to the American people, like this administration did.
CARLSON: No, James, are you going to defend that?
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: You're not covering up for this administration anymore. The noose of history is around the neck of this administration.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm not covering up. Are you going to defend that, telling them to stop the bombing for Al Gore?
CARVILLE: I don't know what he said. But then he came back and said he didn't say it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: We won that war.
CARLSON: So he is lying? Is that what you're saying?
CARVILLE: We leveled with the American people. I don't know.
CARLSON: Address what I just said.
CARVILLE: Who won the Kosovo war?
CARLSON: Is he lying, Wes Clark?
CARVILLE: I don't know what he was doing.
CARLSON: That he came under political pressure from Bill Clinton's White House?
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: I don't know what he was doing. Bill Clinton won the war. Bill Clinton won this war.
I thought I'd report on the most important story written since the end of the Iraq war, one you'll never see. In Saturday's "Washington Post," Dana Priest and Walter Pincus write that Bush and his top advisers repeatedly ignored all of the caveats and qualifiers that the CIA's classified report on Saddam Hussein's weapons -- let me give you an example. In August, Dick Cheney said that Saddam Hussein would give chemical or biological weapons to terrorists. It turns out, the report actually said that Saddam Hussein would give weapons to terrorists only if he was attacked and faced annihilation.
I don't know about you, but there's something I'd like to know before we were attacked. Either out of stupidity or cover for the stupidity of this war-supporting editorial page, this story was relegated to page A-17. At lunch at the Palm today, people were joking that Walter Pincus had a new middle name. It's Walter "A-17" Pincus. Maybe, one day, Walter, "The Post" will wise up and get you back on the front page.
CARLSON: Well, this just shows that you have no idea what you're talking about, James. Actually, no report can predict the actions of another government. So, to say that the report said that Saddam may do this or may not do that, that is all purely subjective, OK?
CARVILLE: That's what the report said.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No, no. Actually, the report guessed, as all reports do.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's the nature of intelligence. So, for you to say, the Bush administration ignored this report, that's merely their assessment. The Bush administration came to a separate assessment.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: They may have been wrong. But the idea that it was a cover-up is ridiculous.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And outrageous
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: They didn't...
(BELL RINGING) CARVILLE: They didn't tell the American people all the things that they did. They lied to the American people. It's simple. What are we talking about?
CARLSON: OK.
Well, President Bush meets the press and addresses his critics. How will it play with the voters? Let the campaign begin. We'll hear next from supporters of the president and Democrat John Kerry.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Well, after enduring months of rabid, nonstop pounding and foaming from the mouth from his Democratic opponents, President Bush is finally engaged. Yesterday, on "Meet the Press," the president told Tim Russert that he has a clear vision for the country and looks forward to what he called a good campaign.
Well, if the Democrats have all but formally settled on John Kerry as their candidate, let that campaign begin right now. In the CROSSFIRE is Kerry supporter and Massachusetts Congressman Marty Meehan, who joins us from Boston. And right here in Washington is California Republican Congressman David Dreier.
Welcome.
REP. DAVID DREIER (R), CALIFORNIA: Nice to be here.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Congressman, always good to have you here.
Let's go right to the videotape, as they say in the trade. Let's listen to Tim Russert and President Bush here.
DREIER: OK. That looks like Meehan.
CARVILLE: It does.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "MEET THE PRESS")
TIM RUSSERT, HOST: ... pay stubs, tax records, anything to show that you were serving during that period?
BUSH: Yes. We still have them. But, you know, the records are kept in Colorado, as I understand. And they scoured the records. And I'm just telling you, I did my duty. And it's politics that, you know, kind of ascribe all kinds of motives to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: Now, Congressman, if the IRS has that, would you recommend to the president that he write a letter to his IRS commissioner and say, would you please release my tax return from 1972, so we can get this little issue out of the way and get to the big issues of this campaign, the deficit, why we found no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, the savaging of the environment, and really get to the things that really matter to the American people? Should he do that?
DREIER: Well, the president obviously wants to focus on the issues that really matter to the American people.
And I will tell you, the kind of division that has come from this issue of military duty -- and the fact of the matter is, I mean, I will tell you, it's really incredible if you go back 12 years and look at what John Kerry said about the issue of military duty, when it had to do with a guy you were close to.
CARVILLE: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: And what he said is, he said, getting into this issue was divisive and he didn't believe that we should be divisive on it.
And so -- and this campaign is not about where people were and what they were doing three decades ago. It's about what kind of leadership is being provided, are we, in fact, getting this economy going, are we beginning the war on terrorism.
CARVILLE: Name me three Republicans in 19...
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Name me three Republicans in 1992, when President, then candidate, Governor Clinton, as I was his campaign manager was being savaged on the draft, name me three Republicans who said, this is really not about what happened when Bill Clinton was in college; this is about America? Name me three off the top.
DREIER: Well, you're looking at one of them right here. I focused on the issues.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
DREIER: Let me just tell you, I focused on the issues then, James. And I believe that was the right thing to do.
CARVILLE: Did you say
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: But I will tell you, it's very interesting. It's interesting. CARLSON: What year is this?
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: It's interesting.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: That's 12 years ago.
CARLSON: Gentlemen, I'm sorry to interrupt.
DREIER: John Kerry is -- John Kerry is the guy who, 12 years ago, said we shouldn't be divisive. And now he's being that.
CARLSON: Congressman Meehan, I want to bring you in. You heard Congressman Dreier refer repeatedly to John Kerry's quote from '92.
Let me just read a selection of it. I'm quoting now. This is February 27, 1992: "We do not need more division" on this issue. "We certainly do not need something as complex and emotional as Vietnam reduced to simple campaign rhetoric." Twelve years later, of course, he has reduced the issue to simple campaign rhetoric and is attacking this president for being unaccounted for during his National Guard service.
Isn't this a revolting, disgusting issue? Shouldn't you be ashamed that your fellow Democrats are engaging in it? And, by the way, where were you in Vietnam?
REP. MARTY MEEHAN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Well, first...
(LAUGHTER)
MEEHAN: Well, first, I was a little young for Vietnam, Tucker.
But, look, John Kerry's going to run on his record. And part of his record is a great war record in Vietnam. He served with distinction. He won medals in Vietnam. And, frankly, it's more than that. It's also making sure that we have a president that takes care of veterans, a president that's willing to take care of the reservists and the National Guard who are serving.
Senator Kerry is willing and able to do that. So, I think it's natural that people are going to look at the records of both candidates.
CARLSON: Congressman, I understand. I understand that. Absolutely. And I understand there are broader issue, but let's just talk about this one specific issue.
John Kerry and the head of your party, Terry McAuliffe, have both zeroed in on this question of where Bush was for that one year in the National Guard. Is this a legitimate thing to do, to attack the president, claiming he was AWOL, when there's no evidence there was? DREIER: Well, Marty just -- you just answered the question, Marty, by saying, no. You said that John Kerry wants to focus on the future.
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: Listen, the president can solve this -- the president can solve this by simply releasing the records. That would -- he should release the records.
(APPLAUSE)
MEEHAN: The problem the president has -- the reason the president has a problem on this is because he's never settled the issue from four years ago. And it becomes not such an issue of whether he served or not, but whether he's fully telling the truth about his service.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: He's clearly doing it.
Let me tell just say, the issue has been settled time and time again. As he said in his interview with Tim Russert, this first came up in his first campaign. He ran a quarter of a century ago and people talked about it. They talked about it when he right now for governor. This is the only thing
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: He should release the records. He should release the records.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I'm going to ask -- I'm going to ask this simple thing. Why doesn't he write to the IRS commissioner and release his '72 tax return, and we'll see how many meetings he went to? What's the problem? Let's get it behind us. Why don't we just be forward?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: What's the problem with a simple letter to the IRS commissioner and ask him to release
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: You're absolutely right, James.
CARVILLE: Thank you.
DREIER: We need to focus forward. And that's really what we're trying to do.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Do you think he should write this letter?
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: We're trying to focus forward.
CARVILLE: Do you think he should write the letter?
DREIER: You know what? The president has put this issue behind him. It's been asked time and time again. I think, form from perspective, it's a campaign that is about the future and not about
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: In Louisiana, in Louisiana, this is called shucking and jiving.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Now, Congressman...
CARVILLE: This is a man who doesn't want to ask a -- answer a question.
DREIER: I learned it from you, James.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I want to read you a quote.
DREIER: You're a great teacher, James.
CARLSON: I want to read you a quote from a speech that was given on the floor of the United States Congress on October 9, 2002, before we went to war in Iraq. Here's just part of the speech.
I'm quoting now. "We now know that, sometimes, our nation must act to prevent that which may happen in the future, which brings us to Saddam Hussein and Iraq's pursuit of weapons of mass destruction. Saddam has a unique blend of state-sponsored terror that threatens the world like no other. Unchecked, he pursues chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons and has demonstrated the capacity to use them."
That was you speaking on the floor of the House of Representatives.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: I wonder now that we know what we know whether you need to apologize to America for misleading it and/or resign.
MEEHAN: Look, we have learned a lot since then.
(APPLAUSE)
MEEHAN: That, in fact the president -- the president has -- the president -- the president has not -- we saw his interview on Sunday.
The fact is, the president, apparently, we didn't have weapons of mass destruction over there. Here the president represented to the Congress, the secretary of state represented to the Congress that there were weapons of mass destruction.
CARLSON: But, Congressman, so did you. Wait, wait, wait.
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: We rely on a president to provide the intelligence and provide the information, which he didn't do.
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: The other thing about the resolution that we voted on -- let -- the resolution required the president to go to the United Nations and to bring the world together before he took military action. He should have done what we required in the resolution.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Can I ask you a question, as a fellow Democrat? You believed President Bush in September, when you went on the floor of the House, didn't you?
MEEHAN: I did. I believed...
CARVILLE: You believed the president of the United States?
MEEHAN: I believed -- I believed the president. And I also believed Secretary of State Colin Powell.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Can I ask a question, please?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... and demagogue and...
CARVILLE: Will you believe this president again, just take him on his word, without any proof?
DREIER: Shuck and jive.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: James...
MEEHAN: I will never -- I will never believe this president without any proof. I don't think anybody in the world will.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Congressman, you had access to information, to intelligence information, that every member of Congress did. Not all voted for the war. But you did. You're not apologizing. You're simply saying, "I was wrong." But, somehow, the president is more responsible than that. He lied, in your estimation. I don't understand the argument you're making.
MEEHAN: Look, the president brought all -- the president brought all the members into the White House and he told the members of Congress, we know that they have weapons of mass destruction. He brought in the head of the CIA, who said, we know they had weapons of -- those are the briefings that we received. And now we find no weapons of mass destruction.
DREIER: Marty, let me ask
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: There were a lot of good reasons. There may have been good reasons to go in and take out Saddam Hussein. But we have an obligation, the United States of America and the president, to tell the truth about why we're going to go
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: And that's exactly what's happening.
I will tell you, Marty, it wasn't just the president of the United States who provided these briefings. You got them. I got them. We regularly had top-secret briefings on the floor of the House. We obviously had access to information that the president had access to.
MEEHAN: And they were wrong.
DREIER: And we came to the same conclusion.
No. The fact of the matter is, if you look at the last couple of decades...
(APPLAUSE)
DREIER: If you look at the last couple of decades, it's very clear, Porter Goss, the chairman of the Intelligence Committee, pointed out yesterday, during the mid-1990s, we saw double-digit cuts in human intelligence.
And the director of central intelligence, James Woolsey, who quit out of frustration, because he couldn't meet with President Clinton, the joke was, when that plane flew into the White House, he was simply trying to get an appointment with President Clinton. The fact of the matter is, during the 1990s, we saw a diminution of our intelligence. This president has been increasing it.
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: The United States of America has to be correct. The United States of America has to be correct when we take unilateral action.
DREIER: Absolutely. And that's what we're working on.
CARLSON: Congressman Meehan...
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: In this instance, it wasn't.
DREIER: And, Marty, that conclusion can't be drawn yet.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Congressman Meehan, I admire you, because you live by the adage, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. You're a man that's not going to be fooled by this administration again.
Congressman Dreier, this is the cover of "TIME" magazine. "Does Bush Have a Credibility Gap?" In a poll, only 44 percent of Americans describe the president as honest and trustworthy.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: What can he do to get his good name back? What can he do?
DREIER: Let me just tell you exactly...
CARVILLE: What can he do to restore trust in him?
DREIER: James, let me just tell you exactly the way that exists.
We just saw the clip before Marty and I came on here of Al Gore doing a great impression of Howard Dean. He used terms...
(LAUGHTER)
DREIER: Listen.
(APPLAUSE)
DREIER: Let me -- and James, when I -- when I listen to you use terms like traitor, when I listen to you -- hear you use these...
CARVILLE: I didn't say anything like that.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Actually, you did.
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: You did say that, James. You did use that
(CROSSTALK) DREIER: But as that kind of stuff goes on, of course, there's a credibility gap.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm going to have to -- I'm going to have to cut you off on that low note. We're going to take a quick commercial break.
When we return, we'll put our guests into "Rapid Fire."
And right after the break, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on why authorities in Iraq are so concerned about a message they intercepted which may be on its way to leaders of al Qaeda.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
CARVILLE: It's time for "Rapid Fire." We ask short questions and our guests answers don't get a second turn.
Joining us from Watertown, Massachusetts, is Congressman Marty Meehan, a John Kerry supporter. And with us here is California Republican Congressman David Dreier.
CARLSON: Congressman Meehan, in a speech yesterday, former Vice President Al Gore accused President George W. Bush of being a traitor. He said, "He betrayed his country" -- quote.
Will you please distance yourself from that allegation?
MEEHAN: He didn't call him a traitor. He said he betrayed his country because he didn't come clean on what the intelligence was.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: A traitor, Congressman, is someone who betrays his country.
MEEHAN: In addition to that, Tucker, the fact of the matter is, this president won't take responsibility.
CARLSON: You're defending that
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: On one hand, on Sunday, he's not taking responsibility for the mistakes that he made.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Let the record show
(CROSSTALK) DREIER: So Marty is joining this gang of calling him a traitor. Let's understand.
CARVILLE: Congressman, you're a great fiscal conservative. The president said his Medicare billion was $400 billion. Now it's $540 billion. What do you think it will be next week?
DREIER: You know what? I'll tell you something.
CARVILLE: Huh?
DREIER: Getting prescription drugs to senior citizens was our priority.
CARVILLE: Right.
DREIER: Doing it in the most cost-effective way is the right thing to do.
CARVILLE: Right.
DREIER: And you know what? We've had different projections. It's possible that it could be less than that, James.
CARVILLE: It's possible it could be more.
DREIER: And it is possible -- it is possible that it could be more. But you know what?
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: This is something the American people wanted.
CARVILLE: Why didn't you tell us the price tag?
DREIER: As the president said in his interview yesterday, he wanted to bring this town together. And, on this issue, Democrats clearly should have been more supportive, other than the two senators who did help us out.
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: The American people did not ask -- the American people did not ask you to cut a deal with the pharmaceutical industry. We ought to be
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Congressman Meehan, we're almost out of time.
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: ... not a deal with the pharmaceutical industry.
CARLSON: I know. It's
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I'll bet Congressman Meehan is a great man.
CARLSON: Congressman Meehan, I never ask a question twice. I just want to be absolutely clear. You believe George W. Bush is a traitor who betrayed his country? You didn't distance yourself from that. I want to ask you again.
MEEHAN: No.
What I said is -- what I said is, on the clip that I saw, I saw former Vice President Gore simply say that, when a president says one thing and then says something completely different on the issue of when we go to war, that's betraying the American people.
(CROSSTALK)
MEEHAN: I only saw the clip that you showed me. I thought the president's performance -- I thought the president's performance with Tim Russert...
(BELL RINGING)
MEEHAN: ... was an embarrassment.
DREIER: Is he a traitor?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: OK. We'll discuss who's being embarrassed at a later date.
Congressman Meehan, thanks a lot for joining us from outside Boston.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Congressman Dreier, thank you very much. We appreciate it.
Next, have the Grammys gone political? Of course they have. The question is by how much. We'll tell you why some big-name politicians were being talked about at last night's award show.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Unlike the half time show at the Super Bowl, last night's Grammy Awards merely featured bare-naked politics.
Doubtless, you recognize the music. Coldplay's song "Clocks" won record of the year, something that inspired band member Chris Martin to wax political. Here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS MARTIN, COLDPLAY: Thank you. And we'd like to dedicate this to Johnny Cash and to John Kerry, who hopefully will be your president one day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Sure thing, Chris.
But the award for the most nauseating political suck-up was handed out in the heretofore unknown category of -- quote -- "best spoken word album for children," whatever that is. The Grammy went to -- we're not making this up -- a recording of "Peter and the Wolf," with the wolf tracks that featured Sophia Loren, Mikhail Gorbachev and Bill Clinton. And so there is the Clinton legacy for you, the wolf tracks on "Peter and the Wolf."
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He brought us our greatest era of prosperity, when he told the truth and we didn't lie to get in any wars. And, by the way, he can read a hell of a children's book.
Way to go, Mr. President. You're the greatest president we ever had.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: He's a great kids book reader.
CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now. Have a great night.
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