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CNN Crossfire
Southern Showdown
Aired February 10, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: Can a Yankee Democrat win in the South?
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't think there are differences between the South and North and West.
ANNOUNCER: Will Tennessee and Virginia be General Wesley Clark's last stand?
WESLEY CLARK (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're going to get the votes up and we're going to win.
ANNOUNCER: And can John Edwards keep his presidential campaign alive if he doesn't win?
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What I want to do is finish in the top two here in Virginia, top two in Tennessee. Then we go on to Wisconsin.
ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody.
Welcome to CROSSFIRE. In just a couple of hours, we will know whether John Edwards and Wesley Clark's Southern roots will produce a stunning victory for one of them, or will they just be another Pickett's Charge?
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: And will anyone emerge as a realistic alternative to the junior senator from Massachusetts, other than, of course, the president from Texas? That's our debate.
But first, the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Last week, Howard Dean promised to drop out of the presidential race if he loses the Wisconsin primary seven days from now. This week, he changed his mind. In this morning's "New York Times," Dean explains that he was -- quote -- "unaware of making this decision when he made that promise," leaving open the question of what exactly Howard Dean is aware of.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: In other words, the Democratic primary is basically over. John Kerry won it by default. Happily, honorable Democrats still have one last chance to force their corrupt, corpulent party here in Washington to listen to their concerns.
The Virginia and Tennessee primaries are today. Kerry will likely win both of them by a big margin. On the other hand, the polls have not yet closed. There is still time to cast a vote for the most talented Democrat in this race, not simply a candidate, but a folk hero, a man who, from bitter experience, distrust moist liberals. We're speaking, of course, of the Reverend Al Sharpton.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Democrats, awake, arise, head to the polls today. Take your party back. Sharpton 2004.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Thank you for that commercial for Reverend Sharpton.
But, you know, Howard Dean and the rest of these candidates have to decide for themselves. He has a perfect right to say, I'm going to get out after Wisconsin, and then change his mind. I will defend that to the end. He has a right to run in every primary. He's got supporters. If he wants to go and do it and he's willing to put his name on the ballot...
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Of course, I totally agree with that.
BEGALA: ... God bless him.
CARLSON: I think better it's for John Kerry if the primary had gone on longer. It will make him a better candidate. I think you guys out-thought yourselves
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, I think you're right. I think longer primaries could help the nominee, whoever he is.
Well, Howie Kurtz is the man, of course, who keeps a eye on the media for CNN's "RELIABLE SOURCES" and "The Washington Post." He reports that the Bush administration is engaged in a rather novel new form of censorship. Articles that are critical of the military or Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld are simply excluded from the all- important Early Bird clipping service.
Now, you may not have heard of the Early Bird, but it is a must- read for everyone in the national security field, especially in the Pentagon. So, by censoring unflattering articles, the Bush administration is ensuring that our senior defense officials are fundamentally misinformed about how their work is being covered in the press. Of course, President Bush censors himself by refusing to read anything in the papers. He even brags about it.
So I guess, you know, if ignorance is bliss, George W. Bush is the happiest man in America.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I love this. I mean, I got to admit, that's probably the most amusing "Political Alert."
BEGALA: It's on outrage, censorship.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: First of all, it's self-censorship, if it exists at all.
BEGALA: Yes.
CARLSON: But the idea that nobody at the Pentagon reads "The New York Times" or "The Washington Post" in the paper editions or online or listens to -- listens to the radio or watches television, I mean, that's ludicrous. I'm sure some people look at the front-runner or whatever it's called, but most people get their media from traditional sources.
BEGALA: The Early Bird is a very big deal. The government should not be censoring it. They should put, without favor or favoritism, whatever's in the paper...
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: ... in the clips, so that these guys can know...
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: But it's their own clipping service.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: And they're censoring it. They want to keep their people ignorant, which is a state of play for the Republicans, I guess.
CARLSON: Oh, please.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: OK. Well, John Kerry promises that, when he gets the White House, his very first order of business will be to drive what he calls the special interests from the temple, as he puts it, usually while screaming -- quote -- "We're coming. You're going. Don't let the door hit you on the way out." Oh, pretty tough.
But has there ever been a phonier claim in all the history of politics? Probably not, because, as "The Washington Post" recently pointed out, Kerry is, in fact, the single largest recipient of campaign contributions from lobbyists in the entire U.S. Senate, No. 1 on the list. There is none bigger than John Kerry.
Add to that a devastating report from ABC News star reporter Jake Tapper about Kerry's ties to a company called Predictive Networks -- quote -- "It absolutely is a special interest," said Paul Davis, a Democrat who helped found the company in question. Quote: "Make no mistake about it. We're in that business to make money, not to perform any kind of social service" -- end quote.
And yet, John Kerry co-sponsored legislation specifically designed to help this special interest. In return, he received more than $100,000 in donations bundled by the company's CEO. It could be time for John Kerry to stop pretending to be a populist.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: You know what? It could be time for Republicans to put the same scrutiny of President Bush's special interest money.
CARLSON: No, but
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, wait a minute. There is one bigger, George W. Bush. He gets money from environmental...
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: From environmental polluters and lets them write the environmental laws.
CARLSON: You're missing the point, Paul. He's not running up there as someone who is going to take on the lobbyists.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: So he's honestly corrupt.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: No, no, he' not corrupt. It's OK to deal with lobbyists. Actually, they're people, too.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: They're Americans. But to get up there and pretend you're a populist when you live on Beacon Hill, it's too much. It makes -- it's too phony. Come on.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: No, actually, I think he's right. And I think that somebody needs to clean house around here.
Well, the White House has released a report praising the exporting of American jobs overseas. I'm not making this up. Let me show you some of the headlines. Here's "The L.A. Times"' headline from today's report: "Bush Supports Shift of Jobs Overseas." Just in case you think "The L.A. Times" might have got it wrong, here's "The Seattle Times." "Bush Report: Sending Jobs Overseas Helps U.S." Not satisfied?
Let's look at that the East Coast. "The Pittsburgh Post Gazette," headline: "Bush Economic Report Praises Outsourcing Jobs." Or down South in "The Orlando Sentinel." Their headline today reads, "Bush Says Sending Jobs Abroad Can Be Beneficial."
Can you imagine this? Well, I guess, if exporting jobs is beneficial, I don't know how much more benefit we can stand. Take a look at this chart. The red line going up shows the new jobs Mr. Bush promised that his tax cuts would create. You see it going way, way up there. The blue line going down is the jobs we actually lost. The space in between? Well, that's the Bush credibility gap.
CARLSON: Well, you've brought up two different issues here. I'll just address only the first one, without even getting to tax cut argument. Actually, losing some jobs in lower-skilled jobs, that's just part of what it means to open up trade and NAFTA, which, of course, your -- the Clinton administration supported.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: We gained jobs after NAFTA.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And that's exactly the point that the president is making, is that some jobs in the text sector, for instance, they go to India and China, the fact they left doesn't hurt the economy at all. In the long run, it increases the number of American jobs. You know that that's true.
BEGALA: Actually, it's nonsense and it's heartless and it's Republican economics.
CARLSON: God, that's...
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Well, can John Kerry close out the race for the Democratic nomination with a Southern sweep? It looks like it, but John Edwards is counting on his own Southern strategy to slow the Kerry momentum. And, of course, there's Al Sharpton. We'll talk to support of the two main campaigns next. And why some are trying to wrap the Janet Jackson controversy in the Virginia state flag? It's a bizarre story. We'll bring it to you anyway.
We'll be right back.
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to the live Washington audience, call 202-994-8CNN or e-mail us at CNN@gwu.edu. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Senator John Edwards tells reporters that he expects to do well in today's primaries in Tennessee and Virginia. But, if the polls before the election are any indication, neither he, nor Wesley Clark will do nearly as well as Senator John Kerry, the self-proclaimed New England patriot who may be storming across the South today.
In fact, a new nationwide CNN poll shows the majority of Democrats across the country are supporting Senator Kerry.
In the CROSSFIRE today, Edwards supporter and Maryland Congressman Albert Wynn, along with Senator Jon Corzine of New Jersey. He is a supporter of John Kerry.
Gentlemen, thanks for joining us.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Thanks for joining us.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Senator Corzine, I have some concerns about the themes of the Kerry campaign. I'm going to just let you listen -- hear a quote from one of your colleagues, Senator Zell Miller, Democrat, as you know, from Georgia in the Senate. This is his concern about the Kerry campaign.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: He said this just the other day. And I'm quoting now. "This is a very vulnerable candidate on several issues. As far as special interests, I don't put much faith in that, because nearly all of the candidates are beholden to special interests. But this man has wallowed in their money. Of all of the senators, he got more special interest money than any senator ever has in 15 years. I mean, he is the Olympic gold medalist when it comes to special interest money."
That's true, of course. Isn't it time for him to stop pretending to be a populist, John Kerry?
SEN. JON CORZINE (D), NEW JERSEY: You know PAC money? You ever heard of PAC money?
CARLSON: Oh, yes.
CORZINE: John Kerry doesn't make PAC money.
CARLSON: But he's first in lobbyist money.
CORZINE: The idea that -- the idea that anyone who is running for political office isn't going to reach out to the broader communities that are involved in Washington to raise money, given the campaign system that we have today, is just being absolutely naive. And John Kerry has actually put down some rules that are actually much stronger than most people, by staying away from PAC money, which is absolutely special interest money.
CARLSON: But, then, why is he first, out of all 100 senators, first in taking money from lobbyists? That's not exactly an outsider position, is it?
CORZINE: Again, you know, there are different ways that special interests get in. And I promise you, John Kerry stands up to the special interests. He stands up to the oil companies. He pushed back against ANWR. He stood up to the auto companies and pushed back on fuel standards.
This is a man that has, in my view, demonstrated by what he does, not by what he says or what Zell Miller happens to categorize, that he is not a captive to special interest. And I'll tell you, that White House has got full-throttle control in the hands of the folks from the oil companies and the pharmaceutical industry and other places.
BEGALA: Amen.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Congressman Wynn, your man, John Edwards, though, is in a little bit of trouble. He won in South Carolina, with your help. You came and joined us on the CROSSFIRE down there. I saw you campaigning for him. You carried the state for him.
REP. ALBERT WYNN (D), MARYLAND: All right.
BEGALA: But today is Tennessee and today is Virginia. And Larry Sabato at the University of Virginia knows more about his state, I think, than anybody. Here's what he had to say.
"If Kerry" -- John Kerry, that is -- "secures two Southern states against two Southern Democrats, that eliminates the last argument against Kerry, that argument being that he can't carry the South."
Isn't Professor Sabato right?
WYNN: No, not at all. First of all, John Edwards is going to do very well today. He says he want to finish in the top two. I think he will do that. The thing... BEGALA: But America finished in the top two in World War II, and so did Germany. We've got to win, right? That's the point is, you've got to win these things.
WYNN: Now, wait a minute. This is a long race. This is a marathon. This is not a sprint. A few months ago, you guys were declaring Howard Dean the next president of the United States, or at least the next Democratic nominee.
(CROSSTALK)
WYNN: In fact, Edwards is running a surging campaign. From where he started to where he is now, he's done tremendously well. He's going to do well today in both states. I've personally been out campaigning for him, so I'm a true believer in that regard.
But I think it is true that he can continue and will continue to campaign very effectively in the South and in other parts or the country. The point is, people connect to John Edwards. His message connects to them. This race is going to be about domestic issue, about jobs, about displacement of workers, American workers. He's going to sell very well.
Let me tell you, after today, 80 percent of the delegates will not have been elected. Therefore, this race is far from over.
CARLSON: But, Congressman Wynn, as you know, Mr. Edwards is running a campaign based on the idea that he's going to -- he's going to work in the South. And yet he's not running again for Senate, partly because he might not win. Don't believe me. Listen to what John Kerry said in a remark to one of his aides, David
(CROSSTALK)
WYNN: About John Edwards?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Yes. Listen to this. I thought this was a great, very deep point. He said -- quote -- "Edwards says" -- he said this very contemptuously -- "Edwards says he's the only one who can win states in the South. He can't win his own state," John Kerry said.
Now, if that's what the Democratic front-runner says, how can you argue with that?
WYNN: Again, let's look at the facts. John Edwards ran against an incumbent Republican and beat the pants off of him.
CARLSON: He was a weak Republican.
WYNN: Oh, wait a minute. Come on.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I covered that. That was a sad race. I mean, seriously.
WYNN: Wait. Wait. Wait.
(CROSSTALK)
WYNN: He wasn't a weak Republican. He was well funded and he was an incumbent. And he got beat by John Edwards. So, there's no question that John Edwards has great appeal. He was not in any worry -- had no worry about retaining his seat.
He has a larger message. He's campaigned to be president of the United States because he wants to represent working-class and middle- class Americans. He's been very effective coming from far back in the pack to the very top of the pack, communicating with America, saying, look, it's about jobs. It's about a better quality of life. It's about health care. It's about paying teachers to work in disadvantaged communities.
He's talking about the things that matter. This race is about domestic issues. John Edwards has a message. He will continue forward, no question.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: All right, Senator Corzine, let me look forward a little bit to a general election. Scott McClellan, the president's spokesman at the White House, today, a good guy -- I happen to know him from Austin, a terrific guy -- has as hard a day in that job, and my heart goes out to him, because he released a few records from then Lieutenant Bush's reported service in the Alabama National Guard.
The records didn't show if he ever showed up in Alabama. They didn't release disciplinary records, if any. They didn't release military medical records, if any. They didn't explain why he didn't take his flight test and why he quit flying back in those days. Is this something that Senator Kerry, as a Vietnam war hero, ought to raise as an issue? He's been kind of stand-off from it. Should he raise this as an issue?
CORZINE: I think the American public will make a judgment about those questions, about Senator Kerry's service compared to then -- President Bush's service in the National Guard.
I think it speaks for itself. I think the questions will be asked by the media. And I think common sense says, we have one person who put their life on the line, demonstrated their commitment to their country. And the other record speaks for itself.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Wait. I worked for Bill Clinton. And Bob Dole put his life on the line for our country. And I love Bill Clinton, and he never did. Why is that so important?
CORZINE: I think that the issue is, is John Kerry a man of character that can represent this nation? And I'm not making a judgment about George Bush.
But, you know, that record speaks for itself, by comparison to what it is that John Kerry's done, did for his fellow human beings by going back into a battle to get an individual out of a tough situation. I think this is just an issue of people making their own judgment about character.
CARLSON: Well, wait. Wait a second, Senator. I mean, you are making a judgment about the president. You're doing it by comparing him to Senator Kerry.
You're about the same age as George W. Bush. You're one year younger. You also, according to your official biography, served in the Reserves while you were going to business school. Nothing dishonorable about that. But if you were running a race against a war hero, why would it not be fair for the war hero to say, apart from issues: "I'm a war hero. Jon Corzine was merely in the Reserves while he went to business school. Vote for me"?
By the criteria you're setting up, that would be a fair comparison.
CARLSON: I'm only saying that the American people must look at the character of the individual.
And, by the way, I don't think I missed any of those meetings. I don't think that, if you went back in...
(CROSSTALK)
CORZINE: I don't think, if you went back and looked at the record, that I got anything other than promotions as you went along.
I -- I think what you want to do is assess the character by what people do in their lives. John Kerry is a war hero. He was a prosecutor that pushed back against criminal organizations. He has been a defender of people over and over again with his record. He has stood up on very tough issues against special interests, as opposed to actually embracing them and bringing them in and putting them on the board of directors of the operation in the White House.
I think John Kerry's record, his experience, speaks for itself. And I think it has to be compared with who will be his opponent. And the America people should make that judgment. I don't think John Kerry has to bring that out.
BEGALA: Congressman Wynn, is this a legitimate issue for you and for Senator Edwards' campaign?
WYNN: I think it's a legitimate issue for the American people. And I think the senator is right. The American people will look at this. They will turn it around. They will say, well, we know...
BEGALA: Why hasn't Edwards raised it?
WYNN: Well, John Edwards doesn't talk about other candidates. He talks about his message.
The message that we're talking about is, why is President Bush bragging about exporting U.S. jobs? John Edwards is saying, wait a minute, I'm from a mill town. I know what it's like to lose jobs. I know what the manufacturing communities are feeling. So I think that's his message. And he's focused on that message.
CARLSON: OK, we're going to have to take a break. Thank you very much, Congressman Wynn, Senator Corzine. We really appreciate it.
(APPLAUSE)
WYNN: Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Thanks, Senator.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Just ahead in "Fireback," did Al Gore have anything to do with Howard Dean's downfall? It's a deep question. We will probe it.
And right after the break, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on the controversy over President Bush's military records.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time now for audience questions. We're throwing open the floor in the best small-d Democratic addition.
Yes, ma'am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is -- I'm Debbie (ph) from Conroe, Texas.
And I have a question about if there is a direct correlation between the Dean campaign's downturn and Al Gore's endorsement?
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: I don't know direct. I think it's more of a metaphor. It's very hard to run a campaign as an outsider and then, all of a sudden, turn on a dime and crave the acceptance of insiders like Al Gore, who, on the other hand, is a bit of an outsider, because nobody likes him here in Washington.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: So...
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: No, it is -- it's -- there's a logical fallacy, post hoc ergo propter hoc. After this or because of this, right -- I wore my blue tie and it was sunny, so I'll wear it tomorrow, it will be sunny again. It wasn't Gore's fault.
CARLSON: But it didn't help. I don't think there's any question.
BEGALA: I think you're right. It was a hypocritical message.
CARLSON: Yes.
BEGALA: To try to say I'm the outsider with all the insider endorsements.
Yes, ma'am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm Myra (ph) Los Angeles.
And my question is for Tucker Carlson. Who would you like to see on the Democratic ticket and why?
CARLSON: Well, obviously, Sharpton-Kucinich.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Simply because I think they're two candidates who tell the truth most often, mostly because they have nothing to lose, but also because they're pretty honest guys. I think they're by far the most amusing ticket. And, third, I think they're the ticket with the most hostility toward the Democratic establishment. And I think that's fair to be hostile to that establishment.
BEGALA: Tucker leaves out the best reason, which is the hair primary. The two guys with the most interesting hair in my party, Reverend Sharpton and Dennis Kucinich.
CARLSON: That is an excellent -- that is an excellent point.
BEGALA: So vote the hair. Vote Sharpton, Kucinich.
CARLSON: And neither one eats red meat.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, I do.
Well, coming up next, is FCC Chairman Michael Powell going to demand that the Commonwealth of Virginia change its flag? We will show you how that flag and the Janet Jackson controversy are inextricably linked right after this break.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Of course, somebody sent deadly ricin to the United States Senate. Someone else sent anthrax. And someone in the Bush administration allegedly leaked the name of an undercover CIA operative. So what are conservatives most upset about these days? Boob-gate, Janet Jackson's exposed breast during the Super Bowl.
In fact, the self-appointed guardians of public decency have exposed an even more horrific threat to America's moral fiber. As "The Washington Post" points out, schoolchildren across the Commonwealth of Virginia are routinely required to draw their state flag, which contains a bare-breasted image of the Roman goddess Virtus.
Well, you know, I've got an idea. If they don't like that, maybe we should replace the goddess bodice with the image of the man I think is the biggest boob in America. Here he is, ladies and gentlemen, George W. Bush.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: From one boob to another right on the Virginia flag.
CARLSON: You know, I'm going to ignore the second part of that. But the first part of it...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... good-looking boob.
CARLSON: If you look closely at the Virginia state flag, you will notice a starburst nipple.
BEGALA: Is that right?
CARLSON: Yes. That's exactly it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: She's got the -- she's got the ornament.
BEGALA: Can you say nipple on cable?
CARLSON: I don't know if you can, but I think you just did.
BEGALA: Under that -- I just repeated it.
Under that flag here in Virginia, though, primary day.
CARLSON: Yes. Did you vote? BEGALA: I did vote today. I didn't wear my sticker.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And who did you vote for, Paul?
BEGALA: That's a secret ballot here in America, until John Ashcroft carts me away.
CARLSON: Really? You're not going to admit it? Well, I'll admit I voted in the Democratic primary. I voted for Al Sharpton. That's right.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Al Sharpton.
CARLSON: And I got a...
BEGALA: So Kucinich is heartbroken, you know.
CARLSON: And I got to call -- this is a true fact.
BEGALA: Kucinich has promised to make me ambassador to Mars.
CARLSON: Well, if I had two votes, I would -- maybe I'll vote for him tonight.
But I got a call from a Democratic Party official here in the state of Virginia, scolding me for daring to vote, daring to exercise my right to vote today in Virginia. The idea was, you're just not the kind of person that should be allowed to vote. That's sort of the Democratic idea about voting. If you're not the right person, you shouldn't be allowed to do it.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: That's a true story.
BEGALA: And I'm glad you voted Democrat today. I hope it becomes a habit.
From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE. Remember, polls still open in Virginia and Tennessee. Go, Al Sharpton.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Up next, "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS." Have a great night.
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Aired February 10, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: Can a Yankee Democrat win in the South?
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't think there are differences between the South and North and West.
ANNOUNCER: Will Tennessee and Virginia be General Wesley Clark's last stand?
WESLEY CLARK (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're going to get the votes up and we're going to win.
ANNOUNCER: And can John Edwards keep his presidential campaign alive if he doesn't win?
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What I want to do is finish in the top two here in Virginia, top two in Tennessee. Then we go on to Wisconsin.
ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody.
Welcome to CROSSFIRE. In just a couple of hours, we will know whether John Edwards and Wesley Clark's Southern roots will produce a stunning victory for one of them, or will they just be another Pickett's Charge?
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: And will anyone emerge as a realistic alternative to the junior senator from Massachusetts, other than, of course, the president from Texas? That's our debate.
But first, the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Last week, Howard Dean promised to drop out of the presidential race if he loses the Wisconsin primary seven days from now. This week, he changed his mind. In this morning's "New York Times," Dean explains that he was -- quote -- "unaware of making this decision when he made that promise," leaving open the question of what exactly Howard Dean is aware of.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: In other words, the Democratic primary is basically over. John Kerry won it by default. Happily, honorable Democrats still have one last chance to force their corrupt, corpulent party here in Washington to listen to their concerns.
The Virginia and Tennessee primaries are today. Kerry will likely win both of them by a big margin. On the other hand, the polls have not yet closed. There is still time to cast a vote for the most talented Democrat in this race, not simply a candidate, but a folk hero, a man who, from bitter experience, distrust moist liberals. We're speaking, of course, of the Reverend Al Sharpton.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Democrats, awake, arise, head to the polls today. Take your party back. Sharpton 2004.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Thank you for that commercial for Reverend Sharpton.
But, you know, Howard Dean and the rest of these candidates have to decide for themselves. He has a perfect right to say, I'm going to get out after Wisconsin, and then change his mind. I will defend that to the end. He has a right to run in every primary. He's got supporters. If he wants to go and do it and he's willing to put his name on the ballot...
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Of course, I totally agree with that.
BEGALA: ... God bless him.
CARLSON: I think better it's for John Kerry if the primary had gone on longer. It will make him a better candidate. I think you guys out-thought yourselves
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, I think you're right. I think longer primaries could help the nominee, whoever he is.
Well, Howie Kurtz is the man, of course, who keeps a eye on the media for CNN's "RELIABLE SOURCES" and "The Washington Post." He reports that the Bush administration is engaged in a rather novel new form of censorship. Articles that are critical of the military or Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld are simply excluded from the all- important Early Bird clipping service.
Now, you may not have heard of the Early Bird, but it is a must- read for everyone in the national security field, especially in the Pentagon. So, by censoring unflattering articles, the Bush administration is ensuring that our senior defense officials are fundamentally misinformed about how their work is being covered in the press. Of course, President Bush censors himself by refusing to read anything in the papers. He even brags about it.
So I guess, you know, if ignorance is bliss, George W. Bush is the happiest man in America.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I love this. I mean, I got to admit, that's probably the most amusing "Political Alert."
BEGALA: It's on outrage, censorship.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: First of all, it's self-censorship, if it exists at all.
BEGALA: Yes.
CARLSON: But the idea that nobody at the Pentagon reads "The New York Times" or "The Washington Post" in the paper editions or online or listens to -- listens to the radio or watches television, I mean, that's ludicrous. I'm sure some people look at the front-runner or whatever it's called, but most people get their media from traditional sources.
BEGALA: The Early Bird is a very big deal. The government should not be censoring it. They should put, without favor or favoritism, whatever's in the paper...
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: ... in the clips, so that these guys can know...
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: But it's their own clipping service.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: And they're censoring it. They want to keep their people ignorant, which is a state of play for the Republicans, I guess.
CARLSON: Oh, please.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: OK. Well, John Kerry promises that, when he gets the White House, his very first order of business will be to drive what he calls the special interests from the temple, as he puts it, usually while screaming -- quote -- "We're coming. You're going. Don't let the door hit you on the way out." Oh, pretty tough.
But has there ever been a phonier claim in all the history of politics? Probably not, because, as "The Washington Post" recently pointed out, Kerry is, in fact, the single largest recipient of campaign contributions from lobbyists in the entire U.S. Senate, No. 1 on the list. There is none bigger than John Kerry.
Add to that a devastating report from ABC News star reporter Jake Tapper about Kerry's ties to a company called Predictive Networks -- quote -- "It absolutely is a special interest," said Paul Davis, a Democrat who helped found the company in question. Quote: "Make no mistake about it. We're in that business to make money, not to perform any kind of social service" -- end quote.
And yet, John Kerry co-sponsored legislation specifically designed to help this special interest. In return, he received more than $100,000 in donations bundled by the company's CEO. It could be time for John Kerry to stop pretending to be a populist.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: You know what? It could be time for Republicans to put the same scrutiny of President Bush's special interest money.
CARLSON: No, but
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, wait a minute. There is one bigger, George W. Bush. He gets money from environmental...
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: From environmental polluters and lets them write the environmental laws.
CARLSON: You're missing the point, Paul. He's not running up there as someone who is going to take on the lobbyists.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: So he's honestly corrupt.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: No, no, he' not corrupt. It's OK to deal with lobbyists. Actually, they're people, too.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: They're Americans. But to get up there and pretend you're a populist when you live on Beacon Hill, it's too much. It makes -- it's too phony. Come on.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: No, actually, I think he's right. And I think that somebody needs to clean house around here.
Well, the White House has released a report praising the exporting of American jobs overseas. I'm not making this up. Let me show you some of the headlines. Here's "The L.A. Times"' headline from today's report: "Bush Supports Shift of Jobs Overseas." Just in case you think "The L.A. Times" might have got it wrong, here's "The Seattle Times." "Bush Report: Sending Jobs Overseas Helps U.S." Not satisfied?
Let's look at that the East Coast. "The Pittsburgh Post Gazette," headline: "Bush Economic Report Praises Outsourcing Jobs." Or down South in "The Orlando Sentinel." Their headline today reads, "Bush Says Sending Jobs Abroad Can Be Beneficial."
Can you imagine this? Well, I guess, if exporting jobs is beneficial, I don't know how much more benefit we can stand. Take a look at this chart. The red line going up shows the new jobs Mr. Bush promised that his tax cuts would create. You see it going way, way up there. The blue line going down is the jobs we actually lost. The space in between? Well, that's the Bush credibility gap.
CARLSON: Well, you've brought up two different issues here. I'll just address only the first one, without even getting to tax cut argument. Actually, losing some jobs in lower-skilled jobs, that's just part of what it means to open up trade and NAFTA, which, of course, your -- the Clinton administration supported.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: We gained jobs after NAFTA.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And that's exactly the point that the president is making, is that some jobs in the text sector, for instance, they go to India and China, the fact they left doesn't hurt the economy at all. In the long run, it increases the number of American jobs. You know that that's true.
BEGALA: Actually, it's nonsense and it's heartless and it's Republican economics.
CARLSON: God, that's...
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Well, can John Kerry close out the race for the Democratic nomination with a Southern sweep? It looks like it, but John Edwards is counting on his own Southern strategy to slow the Kerry momentum. And, of course, there's Al Sharpton. We'll talk to support of the two main campaigns next. And why some are trying to wrap the Janet Jackson controversy in the Virginia state flag? It's a bizarre story. We'll bring it to you anyway.
We'll be right back.
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to the live Washington audience, call 202-994-8CNN or e-mail us at CNN@gwu.edu. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Senator John Edwards tells reporters that he expects to do well in today's primaries in Tennessee and Virginia. But, if the polls before the election are any indication, neither he, nor Wesley Clark will do nearly as well as Senator John Kerry, the self-proclaimed New England patriot who may be storming across the South today.
In fact, a new nationwide CNN poll shows the majority of Democrats across the country are supporting Senator Kerry.
In the CROSSFIRE today, Edwards supporter and Maryland Congressman Albert Wynn, along with Senator Jon Corzine of New Jersey. He is a supporter of John Kerry.
Gentlemen, thanks for joining us.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Thanks for joining us.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Senator Corzine, I have some concerns about the themes of the Kerry campaign. I'm going to just let you listen -- hear a quote from one of your colleagues, Senator Zell Miller, Democrat, as you know, from Georgia in the Senate. This is his concern about the Kerry campaign.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: He said this just the other day. And I'm quoting now. "This is a very vulnerable candidate on several issues. As far as special interests, I don't put much faith in that, because nearly all of the candidates are beholden to special interests. But this man has wallowed in their money. Of all of the senators, he got more special interest money than any senator ever has in 15 years. I mean, he is the Olympic gold medalist when it comes to special interest money."
That's true, of course. Isn't it time for him to stop pretending to be a populist, John Kerry?
SEN. JON CORZINE (D), NEW JERSEY: You know PAC money? You ever heard of PAC money?
CARLSON: Oh, yes.
CORZINE: John Kerry doesn't make PAC money.
CARLSON: But he's first in lobbyist money.
CORZINE: The idea that -- the idea that anyone who is running for political office isn't going to reach out to the broader communities that are involved in Washington to raise money, given the campaign system that we have today, is just being absolutely naive. And John Kerry has actually put down some rules that are actually much stronger than most people, by staying away from PAC money, which is absolutely special interest money.
CARLSON: But, then, why is he first, out of all 100 senators, first in taking money from lobbyists? That's not exactly an outsider position, is it?
CORZINE: Again, you know, there are different ways that special interests get in. And I promise you, John Kerry stands up to the special interests. He stands up to the oil companies. He pushed back against ANWR. He stood up to the auto companies and pushed back on fuel standards.
This is a man that has, in my view, demonstrated by what he does, not by what he says or what Zell Miller happens to categorize, that he is not a captive to special interest. And I'll tell you, that White House has got full-throttle control in the hands of the folks from the oil companies and the pharmaceutical industry and other places.
BEGALA: Amen.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Congressman Wynn, your man, John Edwards, though, is in a little bit of trouble. He won in South Carolina, with your help. You came and joined us on the CROSSFIRE down there. I saw you campaigning for him. You carried the state for him.
REP. ALBERT WYNN (D), MARYLAND: All right.
BEGALA: But today is Tennessee and today is Virginia. And Larry Sabato at the University of Virginia knows more about his state, I think, than anybody. Here's what he had to say.
"If Kerry" -- John Kerry, that is -- "secures two Southern states against two Southern Democrats, that eliminates the last argument against Kerry, that argument being that he can't carry the South."
Isn't Professor Sabato right?
WYNN: No, not at all. First of all, John Edwards is going to do very well today. He says he want to finish in the top two. I think he will do that. The thing... BEGALA: But America finished in the top two in World War II, and so did Germany. We've got to win, right? That's the point is, you've got to win these things.
WYNN: Now, wait a minute. This is a long race. This is a marathon. This is not a sprint. A few months ago, you guys were declaring Howard Dean the next president of the United States, or at least the next Democratic nominee.
(CROSSTALK)
WYNN: In fact, Edwards is running a surging campaign. From where he started to where he is now, he's done tremendously well. He's going to do well today in both states. I've personally been out campaigning for him, so I'm a true believer in that regard.
But I think it is true that he can continue and will continue to campaign very effectively in the South and in other parts or the country. The point is, people connect to John Edwards. His message connects to them. This race is going to be about domestic issue, about jobs, about displacement of workers, American workers. He's going to sell very well.
Let me tell you, after today, 80 percent of the delegates will not have been elected. Therefore, this race is far from over.
CARLSON: But, Congressman Wynn, as you know, Mr. Edwards is running a campaign based on the idea that he's going to -- he's going to work in the South. And yet he's not running again for Senate, partly because he might not win. Don't believe me. Listen to what John Kerry said in a remark to one of his aides, David
(CROSSTALK)
WYNN: About John Edwards?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Yes. Listen to this. I thought this was a great, very deep point. He said -- quote -- "Edwards says" -- he said this very contemptuously -- "Edwards says he's the only one who can win states in the South. He can't win his own state," John Kerry said.
Now, if that's what the Democratic front-runner says, how can you argue with that?
WYNN: Again, let's look at the facts. John Edwards ran against an incumbent Republican and beat the pants off of him.
CARLSON: He was a weak Republican.
WYNN: Oh, wait a minute. Come on.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I covered that. That was a sad race. I mean, seriously.
WYNN: Wait. Wait. Wait.
(CROSSTALK)
WYNN: He wasn't a weak Republican. He was well funded and he was an incumbent. And he got beat by John Edwards. So, there's no question that John Edwards has great appeal. He was not in any worry -- had no worry about retaining his seat.
He has a larger message. He's campaigned to be president of the United States because he wants to represent working-class and middle- class Americans. He's been very effective coming from far back in the pack to the very top of the pack, communicating with America, saying, look, it's about jobs. It's about a better quality of life. It's about health care. It's about paying teachers to work in disadvantaged communities.
He's talking about the things that matter. This race is about domestic issues. John Edwards has a message. He will continue forward, no question.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: All right, Senator Corzine, let me look forward a little bit to a general election. Scott McClellan, the president's spokesman at the White House, today, a good guy -- I happen to know him from Austin, a terrific guy -- has as hard a day in that job, and my heart goes out to him, because he released a few records from then Lieutenant Bush's reported service in the Alabama National Guard.
The records didn't show if he ever showed up in Alabama. They didn't release disciplinary records, if any. They didn't release military medical records, if any. They didn't explain why he didn't take his flight test and why he quit flying back in those days. Is this something that Senator Kerry, as a Vietnam war hero, ought to raise as an issue? He's been kind of stand-off from it. Should he raise this as an issue?
CORZINE: I think the American public will make a judgment about those questions, about Senator Kerry's service compared to then -- President Bush's service in the National Guard.
I think it speaks for itself. I think the questions will be asked by the media. And I think common sense says, we have one person who put their life on the line, demonstrated their commitment to their country. And the other record speaks for itself.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Wait. I worked for Bill Clinton. And Bob Dole put his life on the line for our country. And I love Bill Clinton, and he never did. Why is that so important?
CORZINE: I think that the issue is, is John Kerry a man of character that can represent this nation? And I'm not making a judgment about George Bush.
But, you know, that record speaks for itself, by comparison to what it is that John Kerry's done, did for his fellow human beings by going back into a battle to get an individual out of a tough situation. I think this is just an issue of people making their own judgment about character.
CARLSON: Well, wait. Wait a second, Senator. I mean, you are making a judgment about the president. You're doing it by comparing him to Senator Kerry.
You're about the same age as George W. Bush. You're one year younger. You also, according to your official biography, served in the Reserves while you were going to business school. Nothing dishonorable about that. But if you were running a race against a war hero, why would it not be fair for the war hero to say, apart from issues: "I'm a war hero. Jon Corzine was merely in the Reserves while he went to business school. Vote for me"?
By the criteria you're setting up, that would be a fair comparison.
CARLSON: I'm only saying that the American people must look at the character of the individual.
And, by the way, I don't think I missed any of those meetings. I don't think that, if you went back in...
(CROSSTALK)
CORZINE: I don't think, if you went back and looked at the record, that I got anything other than promotions as you went along.
I -- I think what you want to do is assess the character by what people do in their lives. John Kerry is a war hero. He was a prosecutor that pushed back against criminal organizations. He has been a defender of people over and over again with his record. He has stood up on very tough issues against special interests, as opposed to actually embracing them and bringing them in and putting them on the board of directors of the operation in the White House.
I think John Kerry's record, his experience, speaks for itself. And I think it has to be compared with who will be his opponent. And the America people should make that judgment. I don't think John Kerry has to bring that out.
BEGALA: Congressman Wynn, is this a legitimate issue for you and for Senator Edwards' campaign?
WYNN: I think it's a legitimate issue for the American people. And I think the senator is right. The American people will look at this. They will turn it around. They will say, well, we know...
BEGALA: Why hasn't Edwards raised it?
WYNN: Well, John Edwards doesn't talk about other candidates. He talks about his message.
The message that we're talking about is, why is President Bush bragging about exporting U.S. jobs? John Edwards is saying, wait a minute, I'm from a mill town. I know what it's like to lose jobs. I know what the manufacturing communities are feeling. So I think that's his message. And he's focused on that message.
CARLSON: OK, we're going to have to take a break. Thank you very much, Congressman Wynn, Senator Corzine. We really appreciate it.
(APPLAUSE)
WYNN: Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Thanks, Senator.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Just ahead in "Fireback," did Al Gore have anything to do with Howard Dean's downfall? It's a deep question. We will probe it.
And right after the break, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on the controversy over President Bush's military records.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Time now for audience questions. We're throwing open the floor in the best small-d Democratic addition.
Yes, ma'am?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is -- I'm Debbie (ph) from Conroe, Texas.
And I have a question about if there is a direct correlation between the Dean campaign's downturn and Al Gore's endorsement?
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: I don't know direct. I think it's more of a metaphor. It's very hard to run a campaign as an outsider and then, all of a sudden, turn on a dime and crave the acceptance of insiders like Al Gore, who, on the other hand, is a bit of an outsider, because nobody likes him here in Washington.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: So...
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: No, it is -- it's -- there's a logical fallacy, post hoc ergo propter hoc. After this or because of this, right -- I wore my blue tie and it was sunny, so I'll wear it tomorrow, it will be sunny again. It wasn't Gore's fault.
CARLSON: But it didn't help. I don't think there's any question.
BEGALA: I think you're right. It was a hypocritical message.
CARLSON: Yes.
BEGALA: To try to say I'm the outsider with all the insider endorsements.
Yes, ma'am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm Myra (ph) Los Angeles.
And my question is for Tucker Carlson. Who would you like to see on the Democratic ticket and why?
CARLSON: Well, obviously, Sharpton-Kucinich.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Simply because I think they're two candidates who tell the truth most often, mostly because they have nothing to lose, but also because they're pretty honest guys. I think they're by far the most amusing ticket. And, third, I think they're the ticket with the most hostility toward the Democratic establishment. And I think that's fair to be hostile to that establishment.
BEGALA: Tucker leaves out the best reason, which is the hair primary. The two guys with the most interesting hair in my party, Reverend Sharpton and Dennis Kucinich.
CARLSON: That is an excellent -- that is an excellent point.
BEGALA: So vote the hair. Vote Sharpton, Kucinich.
CARLSON: And neither one eats red meat.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, I do.
Well, coming up next, is FCC Chairman Michael Powell going to demand that the Commonwealth of Virginia change its flag? We will show you how that flag and the Janet Jackson controversy are inextricably linked right after this break.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Of course, somebody sent deadly ricin to the United States Senate. Someone else sent anthrax. And someone in the Bush administration allegedly leaked the name of an undercover CIA operative. So what are conservatives most upset about these days? Boob-gate, Janet Jackson's exposed breast during the Super Bowl.
In fact, the self-appointed guardians of public decency have exposed an even more horrific threat to America's moral fiber. As "The Washington Post" points out, schoolchildren across the Commonwealth of Virginia are routinely required to draw their state flag, which contains a bare-breasted image of the Roman goddess Virtus.
Well, you know, I've got an idea. If they don't like that, maybe we should replace the goddess bodice with the image of the man I think is the biggest boob in America. Here he is, ladies and gentlemen, George W. Bush.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: From one boob to another right on the Virginia flag.
CARLSON: You know, I'm going to ignore the second part of that. But the first part of it...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... good-looking boob.
CARLSON: If you look closely at the Virginia state flag, you will notice a starburst nipple.
BEGALA: Is that right?
CARLSON: Yes. That's exactly it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: She's got the -- she's got the ornament.
BEGALA: Can you say nipple on cable?
CARLSON: I don't know if you can, but I think you just did.
BEGALA: Under that -- I just repeated it.
Under that flag here in Virginia, though, primary day.
CARLSON: Yes. Did you vote? BEGALA: I did vote today. I didn't wear my sticker.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And who did you vote for, Paul?
BEGALA: That's a secret ballot here in America, until John Ashcroft carts me away.
CARLSON: Really? You're not going to admit it? Well, I'll admit I voted in the Democratic primary. I voted for Al Sharpton. That's right.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Al Sharpton.
CARLSON: And I got a...
BEGALA: So Kucinich is heartbroken, you know.
CARLSON: And I got to call -- this is a true fact.
BEGALA: Kucinich has promised to make me ambassador to Mars.
CARLSON: Well, if I had two votes, I would -- maybe I'll vote for him tonight.
But I got a call from a Democratic Party official here in the state of Virginia, scolding me for daring to vote, daring to exercise my right to vote today in Virginia. The idea was, you're just not the kind of person that should be allowed to vote. That's sort of the Democratic idea about voting. If you're not the right person, you shouldn't be allowed to do it.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: That's a true story.
BEGALA: And I'm glad you voted Democrat today. I hope it becomes a habit.
From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE. Remember, polls still open in Virginia and Tennessee. Go, Al Sharpton.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Up next, "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS." Have a great night.
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