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CNN Crossfire
Will Democrats Get Run Over?
Aired February 16, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: No matter who they nominate, are the Democrats going to get run over?
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Gentlemen, start your engines.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: How is the presidential race shaping up? And what dangerous curves could be ahead?
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We need a president who says, America, let's start our economy and put people back to work.
ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Robert Novak.
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
President Bush is revving up his engine down in Florida, while the Democratic candidates are racing around Wisconsin. We'll debate who will end up in the winner's circle right after we speed through the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Howard Dean must wonder about rats leaving a sinking ship when the chief rat runs away. Not that Steven Grossman is a rat, but the former Democratic national chairman cheered on Dr. Dean while the former Vermont governor was ahead.
However, Steve just can't take another loss for Dean, who figures he'll lose by 40 percentage points in tomorrow's Wisconsin primary. So, Grossman told "The New York Times," he was prepared to reach out to Senator John Kerry after Kerry drubs his man Dean in Wisconsin. Grossman had to reach out early when the Dean campaign announced Grossman's resignation this morning.
Roy Neel, the lobbyist, who is Dean's -- who is Dean's campaign manager, promised that Dean will still be running after Wisconsin. Anybody want to bet on that?
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: This is what happens in politics, just a natural process. John Kerry's winning primaries. And a lot of Democrats are just saying, the heck with it. Let's go on and move to the general election. Steve Grossman is one of them. He's a former party chair.
I suspect he's a real good Democrat who is moving on to the next phase.
NOVAK: I'll tell you something. And I'm going to say this, a compliment to you, Carville.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: If you were the chairman, you wouldn't pull a trick like that on your candidate, even if he was down 40 points.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Well, I think Steve Grossman probably sees the handwriting on the wall.
Even though I'm not willing to go as far as Al Sharpton went in last night's debate on the subject of President Bush, listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AL SHARPTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So, I hope he knew he was lying.
(LAUGHTER)
SHARPTON: Because, if he didn't and just went in some kind of crazy, psychological breakdown, then we are really in trouble. Clearly, you know, I'm a minister. Why do people lie? Because they're liars.
(LAUGHTER)
SHARPTON: He lied in Florida. He's lied several times. I believe he lied in Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: Like I said, there's no way...
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: ... that I'm going to go that far. But this is a man with a Republican political consultant, Roger Stone. He's been endorsed by Tucker Carlson. And Bob Novak probably voted for him in the D.C. primary. My question, am I too tame for all you Bush guys?
NOVAK: Well, let me say this. You think I'm going to attack Al Sharpton. But I don't. I think Al Sharpton embodies the heart, the soul, of the Democratic Party. He ought to be the nominee.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: I did -- that's why I voted for him in the primary.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: And I would like to see -- I would like to see a Bush- Sharpton debate. I think that would...
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: That would just be -- and the winner gets to be president of the United States.
CARVILLE: I'm not tough on Bush. If I was tough on Bush, maybe you'd vote for me. I'm too easy on Bush.
NOVAK: I wouldn't mind seeing you as the nominee.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Reverend Sharpton, you're just -- you're tough on him...
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: ... for Bob and Tucker and all these Republicans.
NOVAK: OK.
What's wrong with John Kerry's resume? The presidential candidate may be just too, too upper-class. He went to Saint Paul's prep school, was a Yale undergrad, and was born rich, becoming much richer when he married a widow who had inherited the Heinz pickle fortune.
What to do? Senator Kerry fixed it Friday in Wisconsin, saying -- quote -- "As a kid, I had an uncle in Massachusetts who had a dairy farm. I used to get up at 3:30 in the morning. We'd make the early milk run. It was a great experience for me."
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: So, John Kerry really is an ordinary person who once did some token physical work. What a life experience to become president. (APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Now let's see. Born rich, went to prep school in New England, and went to undergraduate at Yale. Does that describe anybody else running for president other than John Kerry?
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Does that description...
NOVAK: I'll tell you what the difference is.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: The difference is, George W. never gave any bull about delivering milk in the morning and pretending he was an ordinary person.
CARVILLE: His daddy was a foreign service officer. I don't think he -- a foreign service officer can't make that much money, Bob.
NOVAK: It was the inherited -- don't you know what wealth is?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You wouldn't know down in Louisiana.
CARVILLE: Republicans keep whining about the Democrats and their justified and accurate attack on President Bush's fiscal and foreign policy. They ought to pay attention to their own staff in the United States Senate, which apparently is not only responding to partisan behavior, but engaging in criminal behavior.
As you may have heard, there's been disclosures that some Republican staffers probably obtained confidential judicial nomination memos from Senate computers. I believe that Republicans ought to quite whining about Democrat partisanship and start looking into Republican criminality.
NOVAK: Let me try to explain this to you, James.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Explain it to me.
NOVAK: Some Republican staffers accidentally came across some e- mails that portrayed a conspiracy led by Teddy Kennedy to smear President Bush's judicial nominees.
Now, what the Democrats have done, instead of the conspiracy, they have put the -- the so-called hacking charges out there. And guess what? The Republicans have capitulated to Teddy Kennedy. Shame on the Republican senators.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You know what this is? You know what this is? This is like saying Michael Jackson happened on some young boys.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: He was just kind of out there and he just kind of stumbled across them, you understand?
Senator Orrin Hatch, you bring credit to the United States Senate by looking into this criminality. And let me tell you...
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: ... don't whine about partisanship when there's criminality going on.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: I am a dyed -- dyed-in-the-wool partisan. I'm not a criminal.
NOVAK: He's Teddy Kennedy's patsy.
President Bush is reviving his campaign engine. This weekend, he gathered support from NASCAR dads. Will a Democrat such as John Kerry be able to get in the race for these real Americans? Our debate is next.
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Get ahead of the CROSSFIRE. Sign up for CROSSFIRE's daily "Political Alert" e-mail. You'll get a preview of each day's show, plus an inside look at the day's political headlines. Just go to CNN.com/CROSSFIRE and sign up today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: President Bush's popularity was confirmed by the roar of the crowd at the Daytona 500 this weekend. Now, he's a long way from a victory lap, but he sure seems to be starting from the pole position.
To look at the race ahead, we're joined by Greg Craig, a senior adviser to John Kerry's campaign, and by former Republican National Committee Communications Director Cliff May, now with the Foundation For the Defense of Democracies.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Let's talk about the coming election and the NASCAR dads or whatever. Let me show you a picture of President Bush in college and Senator Kerry. There's him as a Yale cheerleader running against a Silver Star-winning combat veteran.
How are you going to go to these of good, patriotic people and say, we got a Yale cheerleader against a guy that won the Silver Star and Bronze Star? What are you going to tell them?
(APPLAUSE)
CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: I -- I guess I would say that John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam and President Bush, he flew fighter jet craft -- aircraft in the National Guard. And both things are perfectly respectable, admirable things to do, don't you think? National Guard.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... say he's a Yale cheerleader. I said nothing -- you brought up the National Guard. Are you a little defensive?
(LAUGHTER)
MAY: He flew jet fighters. He flew jet fighters.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He let his
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: Let me -- let me -- let me just make a substantive point, which I know is hard to do sometimes talking to you, James.
CARVILLE: Right. Right.
MAY: And that is this. I think it's great that both men were in the service and wore the uniform. That says nothing about what they know now about national security and how we fight a war against terrorism.
NOVAK: All right, let me get a -- let me get a...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Wait a minute. Let me get a...
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: All right, calm down, James.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Mr. Craig, the ABC/"Washington Post" poll which showed Senator Kerry well ahead of President Bush says -- was asked, is the Bush National Guard service a legitimate issue in the '04 election? Yes, 30 percent, no, 66 percent. And then Lanny Davis, your colleague in defending President Clinton against impeachment said: "If we stoop to the level of what the Republicans stooped to, we'll get what we deserve. This is neither a legitimate issue, nor is it an issue that Democrats ought to be talking about."
Should the Kerry campaign be talking about President Bush's National Guard service?
GREG CRAIG, SENIOR KERRY CAMPAIGN ADVISER: The Kerry campaign is not talking about that. The Kerry campaign is talking the failures of the Bush administration over the last three years and why the American people want change. That's what the Kerry campaign is talking about.
NOVAK: Well, that's a good -- that's a good issue. Shouldn't we just get this National Guard thing and get these demagogues like Carville to shut up?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Answer the question. Let him answer the question.
MAY: Just say to James -- you're from the campaign. Say to James, let's not talk about being cheerleaders or National Guardsmen anymore. He'll stop if you ask him to on national TV.
NOVAK: Let him answer -- let him answer the question.
(CROSSTALK)
CRAIG: This is not John Kerry's issue. He has not made it an issue. He's declined to talk about it.
(CROSSTALK)
CRAIG: And I follow his direction.
MAY: But if you made one call to Terry McAuliffe, it would be over for the party. I know. I worked at the party.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: When the candidate calls, you do what the candidate says.
CARVILLE: Let me -- Cliff, let me ask you a question here. President Clinton went through this in 1992. Mr. Novak wrote column after column. How many columns do you think that Bob Novak wrote in 1992 saying, this should not be an issue in this campaign? Republicans who bring this up
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: What if I found one for you?
CARVILLE: Find it. Show it to me. Show it to me.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: By the way, John Kerry did say that, to his credit, then, and he should live up to it now.
CARVILLE: Let me tell you what. He got out eight months early -- eight months early to go to Harvard, after he was a Yale cheerleader. You don't think that's an issue?
MAY: You know, no, I don't think it's an issue. Look...
CARVILLE: Why? How did he get out eight months? I didn't get out eight months early?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Let him answer the question, James.
MAY: First of all, John Kerry served. John Kerry got out early also from Vietnam. He served four months on the ground in Vietnam.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: This is not an issue.
CARVILLE: He got three Purple Hearts.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: All right, I'll tell you, the reason
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: Let me just answer this.
There's one thing that I think -- look, John -- John Kerry served honorably. But when he came back, he slandered his fellow veterans as war criminals.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: And don't you think that he should at least say and put it behind him that his fellow veterans, he doesn't believe what he said about them
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: Don't you think so, James?
NOVAK: Let me just -- let me -- wait a minute.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: Don't you think so?
CARVILLE: I think he had a right to speak out against the war.
MAY: I didn't say that. I didn't say that.
CARVILLE: Three Purple Hearts gave him that right.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: He said war criminals.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Let me just make it clear that -- that James didn't get out early, because he couldn't get admitted to any school.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: But let me change the subject, if I can.
Howard Dean, who is a very prominent Democrat, running for president, and let me just read you what he said the other day. He said: "Senator Kerry apparently supports the kind of politically corrupt fund-raising mechanism that George Bush has also employed. I think Senator Kerry is clearly not the person to carry the banner of the Democrats in this race because he has behaved so much like Republicans, both in his voting record and now in his political practices for fund-raising."
Doesn't Governor Dean have a point on that, when you find so many lobbyists contributing to Senator Kerry?
CRAIG: You'll not be surprised to find that I disagree with what Governor Dean said on that subject.
If you look at John Kerry's voting record in the United States Senate, you'll find a record that is absolutely independent and always pursuing the public interest, rather than private interest.
NOVAK: In other words, he can take the money and vote the other way?
(APPLAUSE)
CRAIG: He's not taken nearly the kind of money that other people have taken. He has -- for example, in the entirety of his career, he's taken less money than George Bush took in one year, this most recent year from special interests.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: So they -- so they -- so they both take the same kind of practice, though. CRAIG: No, no. No, no. The truth is -- and you know it, Mr. Novak -- that John Kerry has declined to take PAC contributions throughout his political career as a senator.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Let me show you this, because gay marriage is going to be an issue, according to Republicans. Let me show you somebody that something said something that I completely agree with. Can I see this float here, please? There it comes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, OCTOBER 5, 2000)
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The fact of the matter, of course, is, that matter is regulated by the states. I think different states are likely to come to different conclusions. And that's appropriate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: Now, that's Dick Cheney. Dick Cheney and I agree completely that this is something that
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: That wasn't gay marriage. That wasn't gay marriage. He was talking about civil unions, not gay marriage.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Civil unions. I agree completely. Can't we just take this off the table right now and just go back and let President Bush explain how he got out eight months early?
(LAUGHTER)
MAY: I think what we should -- look, the one thing we should do -- there are reasonable people on both sides, but a few judges in Massachusetts shouldn't be able to redefine marriage for the rest of the country, for the rest of the world, for the rest of the country forever.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: This is an issue in the campaign, you're saying?
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: ... issue in the campaign. It it an issue for John Kerry?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Is it bigger than a $10 trillion deficit? Is it bigger than going into Iraq with no plan to get out? Is it bigger than a trashing of the environment?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Let him answer the question.
CARVILLE: I'm just trying to get how big the issue is.
(APPLAUSE)
MAY: That's the thing about James.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Let him answer the question.
MAY: James, I think it's bigger than whether or not President Bush was a cheerleader or his National Guard service. I don't think it's bigger than who has the best idea for how we're going to win in Iraq and how we're going to help democracy prosper and how we're going to win the war on the terrorists.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: Which I would like to hear very much
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... any idea how we can win?
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: For three years, we have seen this president in action. Now we need to hear from John Kerry what he would do better. And we haven't heard this yet. We haven't heard it yet.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Mr. Craig, you brought up the question of special interests, that, despite taking so much money from lobbyists, Senator Kerry is against special interests. I really don't understand what a special interest is.
Is the pro-abortion lobby, which supports Senator Kerry, a special interest? Is the teachers union, which tries to stop all school choice and support Senator Kerry, a special interest? Are the big labor unions, which he falls in line, are they special interests?
CRAIG: Well, you're -- you're identifying political issues where you obviously disagree with him on. The concerns that we've got are special interests that pour millions and millions of dollars, like the oil industry and the mining industry and the timber industry.
NOVAK: And labor -- organized labor doesn't spend money
(CROSSTALK)
CRAIG: The pollution industry.
CARVILLE: Pollution industry. Let's call them what they are.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CRAIG: The insurance industry, the pharmaceutical industry, that paid millions and millions of dollars, $600,000 from Enron alone, into the Bush campaign.
NOVAK: The abortion -- the pro-abortion interests and the labor unions don't spend millions of dollars?
CRAIG: Those are individuals who also contribute to causes, not private interests.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: You see, the thing is, if you agree with the group that gives you money, then it's not a special interest. If you disagree, it's a special interest.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
MAY: All four of us are like Claude Raines being shocked at political contributions in Washington. This is another nonissue, James.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Right. And just like you say, it's a nonissue that he's a cheerleader at Yale, he got out of the military early to go to Harvard.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: He was in the National Guard.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... ask you about Harvard and Yale and all that Bush stuff, that elitist stuff that so much George Bush represents.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: And the elitist people that he wants to give these tax cuts to and all the elitism in that campaign.
MAY: Excuse me.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Let me ask you a question; 138 special interest tax breaks that this administration, this Congress, has started since the war started, 138 special interest tax breaks. (CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Isn't that -- isn't that revolting to the American people?
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: And what are those NASCAR dads going to find out when their boy's in the tank to every rich person in America?
(APPLAUSE)
MAY: You know, James, what's revolting -- what's revolting here, I'm afraid, is your hypocrisy. For you to talk about special interests and financial contributions, when you've been the most successful person I know in gathering them.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: No, no. No, no. We'll take a break. Out of time. Out of time.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Out of time, gentlemen.
Next, in "Rapid Fire," we'll ask Greg Craig if his old boss Bill Clinton is pushing for, would you believe it, a Kerry/Clark ticket?
And right after the break, Wolf Blitzer will have the latest on a growing crisis in Haiti which could impact communities along the Florida coast.
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to the live Washington audience, call 202-994-8CNN or e-mail us at CNN@gwu.edu. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
CARVILLE: It's time for "Rapid Fire," which goes by even faster than a lap at the Daytona 500. So, we have to ask questions in a hurry.
Our guests are former RNC Communications Director Cliff May and Kerry senior adviser and counselor Greg Craig.
NOVAK: Greg Craig, "The New York Post" reports that your former boss," Bill Clinton is putting pressure on the Kerry campaign to put General Clark on as the running mate with John Kerry, true or false? CRAIG: False. There's a lot of good people out there. Wes Clark is one of them. President Clinton will support whoever is on the ticket, I'm sure.
CARVILLE: What do you think should be a bigger issue in this marriage -- in this election.
(LAUGHTER)
MAY: Your marriage?
CARVILLE: In this election.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: The $10 trillion deficit that Bush is going to accumulate or gay marriage?
MAY: I hope it's the war against terrorists and the war in Iraq, so we can have a real substantive debate on that issue, James.
NOVAK: Greg, since the -- since the liberal ADA usually has put the voting record of John Kerry at 95 percent liberal for nearly every session, will you finally stipulate -- that's a good lawyer's word -- that John Kerry is a liberal?
CRAIG: Fine. If you want to call him a liberal, that's fine.
CARVILLE: OK.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Good for you. Thank you.
CARVILLE: Do you agree with Vice President Cheney's statement about the gays?
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: You know, I don't necessarily have a position. I think there is a difference between civil
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: Myself? No.
Look, between civil union and marriage, there is a difference. I think most people don't want to see marriage redefined by a bunch of judges in Massachusetts.
CARVILLE: You're not discriminating against anybody?
MAY: That's right.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: I agree with that.
CARVILLE: They want to get married. Don't let them get married?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Mr. Craig, since Senator Kerry -- since Senator Kerry voted for the Patriot Act in the first place, why won't he vote for the renewal of it?
CRAIG: I don't know that he won't. Has it come up yet?
NOVAK: Will he vote for the Patriot Act renewal?
CRAIG: I don't know the answer to that.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: ... repeal the Patriot Act.
NOVAK: OK, thank you very much, Greg Craig. Thank you very much.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Well, next, our audience fires back at us about Senator Hillary Clinton's future, God forbid.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Time for "Fireback," when the people get to fire back at us.
First question, please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, I'm Adam from Brainerd, Minnesota. Do you think Hillary Clinton will be considered for vice president?
NOVAK: Not a chance. I mean, that is the -- that is the left- wing ticket of all time.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: I don't think the senator from Massachusetts is going to pick the senator from New York. I think it will probably be a little more balanced than that. But who knows? She'd -- I'll tell you what. She'd be a great vice president and great president.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Next question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, I'm Jessica (ph) from Foggy Bottom. And I'm wondering if Teresa Heinz Kerry will be an asset or a liability to Kerry's campaign? CARVILLE: Well, she's already been a tremendous asset. And, by the way, somebody worth $1 billion is always going to be an asset.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: I'll tell you, the biggest asset anybody can have is a rich wife.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: I wouldn't know about it myself.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Next question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, my name is Amman (ph) from Falls Church, Virginia.
I was wondering, regardless of the fact that the Dean candidacy is fading, what effect do you think his campaign will have on the election in November? Will his ability to energize the Democratic base be a big asset for the Democrats?
NOVAK: Well, it just shows how many nut bags there are around the country. So that's...
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: That's been the whole point.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Let me just say this. Mrs. Kerry, Mrs. Heinz is not only rich in money. She's rich in ideas. And she gives him a lot of support. She's a very, very bright woman.
NOVAK: Suck, suck, suck, suck up.
Go ahead.
CARVILLE: She's a bright woman.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Go ahead. Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, I'm Dan from Danville, California.
I was wondering if cable news outlets should be more responsible in anointing a front-runner in the pre-election primary period?
NOVAK: No, they shouldn't be more responsible. There's too much responsibility as there is, I think. (LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: We need less responsibility in America today. There's too much responsibility across this great land.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak.
Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
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Aired February 16, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: No matter who they nominate, are the Democrats going to get run over?
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Gentlemen, start your engines.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: How is the presidential race shaping up? And what dangerous curves could be ahead?
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We need a president who says, America, let's start our economy and put people back to work.
ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Robert Novak.
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
President Bush is revving up his engine down in Florida, while the Democratic candidates are racing around Wisconsin. We'll debate who will end up in the winner's circle right after we speed through the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Howard Dean must wonder about rats leaving a sinking ship when the chief rat runs away. Not that Steven Grossman is a rat, but the former Democratic national chairman cheered on Dr. Dean while the former Vermont governor was ahead.
However, Steve just can't take another loss for Dean, who figures he'll lose by 40 percentage points in tomorrow's Wisconsin primary. So, Grossman told "The New York Times," he was prepared to reach out to Senator John Kerry after Kerry drubs his man Dean in Wisconsin. Grossman had to reach out early when the Dean campaign announced Grossman's resignation this morning.
Roy Neel, the lobbyist, who is Dean's -- who is Dean's campaign manager, promised that Dean will still be running after Wisconsin. Anybody want to bet on that?
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: This is what happens in politics, just a natural process. John Kerry's winning primaries. And a lot of Democrats are just saying, the heck with it. Let's go on and move to the general election. Steve Grossman is one of them. He's a former party chair.
I suspect he's a real good Democrat who is moving on to the next phase.
NOVAK: I'll tell you something. And I'm going to say this, a compliment to you, Carville.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: If you were the chairman, you wouldn't pull a trick like that on your candidate, even if he was down 40 points.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Well, I think Steve Grossman probably sees the handwriting on the wall.
Even though I'm not willing to go as far as Al Sharpton went in last night's debate on the subject of President Bush, listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AL SHARPTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So, I hope he knew he was lying.
(LAUGHTER)
SHARPTON: Because, if he didn't and just went in some kind of crazy, psychological breakdown, then we are really in trouble. Clearly, you know, I'm a minister. Why do people lie? Because they're liars.
(LAUGHTER)
SHARPTON: He lied in Florida. He's lied several times. I believe he lied in Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: Like I said, there's no way...
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: ... that I'm going to go that far. But this is a man with a Republican political consultant, Roger Stone. He's been endorsed by Tucker Carlson. And Bob Novak probably voted for him in the D.C. primary. My question, am I too tame for all you Bush guys?
NOVAK: Well, let me say this. You think I'm going to attack Al Sharpton. But I don't. I think Al Sharpton embodies the heart, the soul, of the Democratic Party. He ought to be the nominee.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: I did -- that's why I voted for him in the primary.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: And I would like to see -- I would like to see a Bush- Sharpton debate. I think that would...
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: That would just be -- and the winner gets to be president of the United States.
CARVILLE: I'm not tough on Bush. If I was tough on Bush, maybe you'd vote for me. I'm too easy on Bush.
NOVAK: I wouldn't mind seeing you as the nominee.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Reverend Sharpton, you're just -- you're tough on him...
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: ... for Bob and Tucker and all these Republicans.
NOVAK: OK.
What's wrong with John Kerry's resume? The presidential candidate may be just too, too upper-class. He went to Saint Paul's prep school, was a Yale undergrad, and was born rich, becoming much richer when he married a widow who had inherited the Heinz pickle fortune.
What to do? Senator Kerry fixed it Friday in Wisconsin, saying -- quote -- "As a kid, I had an uncle in Massachusetts who had a dairy farm. I used to get up at 3:30 in the morning. We'd make the early milk run. It was a great experience for me."
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: So, John Kerry really is an ordinary person who once did some token physical work. What a life experience to become president. (APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Now let's see. Born rich, went to prep school in New England, and went to undergraduate at Yale. Does that describe anybody else running for president other than John Kerry?
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Does that description...
NOVAK: I'll tell you what the difference is.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: The difference is, George W. never gave any bull about delivering milk in the morning and pretending he was an ordinary person.
CARVILLE: His daddy was a foreign service officer. I don't think he -- a foreign service officer can't make that much money, Bob.
NOVAK: It was the inherited -- don't you know what wealth is?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You wouldn't know down in Louisiana.
CARVILLE: Republicans keep whining about the Democrats and their justified and accurate attack on President Bush's fiscal and foreign policy. They ought to pay attention to their own staff in the United States Senate, which apparently is not only responding to partisan behavior, but engaging in criminal behavior.
As you may have heard, there's been disclosures that some Republican staffers probably obtained confidential judicial nomination memos from Senate computers. I believe that Republicans ought to quite whining about Democrat partisanship and start looking into Republican criminality.
NOVAK: Let me try to explain this to you, James.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Explain it to me.
NOVAK: Some Republican staffers accidentally came across some e- mails that portrayed a conspiracy led by Teddy Kennedy to smear President Bush's judicial nominees.
Now, what the Democrats have done, instead of the conspiracy, they have put the -- the so-called hacking charges out there. And guess what? The Republicans have capitulated to Teddy Kennedy. Shame on the Republican senators.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You know what this is? You know what this is? This is like saying Michael Jackson happened on some young boys.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: He was just kind of out there and he just kind of stumbled across them, you understand?
Senator Orrin Hatch, you bring credit to the United States Senate by looking into this criminality. And let me tell you...
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: ... don't whine about partisanship when there's criminality going on.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: I am a dyed -- dyed-in-the-wool partisan. I'm not a criminal.
NOVAK: He's Teddy Kennedy's patsy.
President Bush is reviving his campaign engine. This weekend, he gathered support from NASCAR dads. Will a Democrat such as John Kerry be able to get in the race for these real Americans? Our debate is next.
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Get ahead of the CROSSFIRE. Sign up for CROSSFIRE's daily "Political Alert" e-mail. You'll get a preview of each day's show, plus an inside look at the day's political headlines. Just go to CNN.com/CROSSFIRE and sign up today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: President Bush's popularity was confirmed by the roar of the crowd at the Daytona 500 this weekend. Now, he's a long way from a victory lap, but he sure seems to be starting from the pole position.
To look at the race ahead, we're joined by Greg Craig, a senior adviser to John Kerry's campaign, and by former Republican National Committee Communications Director Cliff May, now with the Foundation For the Defense of Democracies.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Let's talk about the coming election and the NASCAR dads or whatever. Let me show you a picture of President Bush in college and Senator Kerry. There's him as a Yale cheerleader running against a Silver Star-winning combat veteran.
How are you going to go to these of good, patriotic people and say, we got a Yale cheerleader against a guy that won the Silver Star and Bronze Star? What are you going to tell them?
(APPLAUSE)
CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: I -- I guess I would say that John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam and President Bush, he flew fighter jet craft -- aircraft in the National Guard. And both things are perfectly respectable, admirable things to do, don't you think? National Guard.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... say he's a Yale cheerleader. I said nothing -- you brought up the National Guard. Are you a little defensive?
(LAUGHTER)
MAY: He flew jet fighters. He flew jet fighters.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He let his
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: Let me -- let me -- let me just make a substantive point, which I know is hard to do sometimes talking to you, James.
CARVILLE: Right. Right.
MAY: And that is this. I think it's great that both men were in the service and wore the uniform. That says nothing about what they know now about national security and how we fight a war against terrorism.
NOVAK: All right, let me get a -- let me get a...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Wait a minute. Let me get a...
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: All right, calm down, James.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Mr. Craig, the ABC/"Washington Post" poll which showed Senator Kerry well ahead of President Bush says -- was asked, is the Bush National Guard service a legitimate issue in the '04 election? Yes, 30 percent, no, 66 percent. And then Lanny Davis, your colleague in defending President Clinton against impeachment said: "If we stoop to the level of what the Republicans stooped to, we'll get what we deserve. This is neither a legitimate issue, nor is it an issue that Democrats ought to be talking about."
Should the Kerry campaign be talking about President Bush's National Guard service?
GREG CRAIG, SENIOR KERRY CAMPAIGN ADVISER: The Kerry campaign is not talking about that. The Kerry campaign is talking the failures of the Bush administration over the last three years and why the American people want change. That's what the Kerry campaign is talking about.
NOVAK: Well, that's a good -- that's a good issue. Shouldn't we just get this National Guard thing and get these demagogues like Carville to shut up?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Answer the question. Let him answer the question.
MAY: Just say to James -- you're from the campaign. Say to James, let's not talk about being cheerleaders or National Guardsmen anymore. He'll stop if you ask him to on national TV.
NOVAK: Let him answer -- let him answer the question.
(CROSSTALK)
CRAIG: This is not John Kerry's issue. He has not made it an issue. He's declined to talk about it.
(CROSSTALK)
CRAIG: And I follow his direction.
MAY: But if you made one call to Terry McAuliffe, it would be over for the party. I know. I worked at the party.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: When the candidate calls, you do what the candidate says.
CARVILLE: Let me -- Cliff, let me ask you a question here. President Clinton went through this in 1992. Mr. Novak wrote column after column. How many columns do you think that Bob Novak wrote in 1992 saying, this should not be an issue in this campaign? Republicans who bring this up
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: What if I found one for you?
CARVILLE: Find it. Show it to me. Show it to me.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: By the way, John Kerry did say that, to his credit, then, and he should live up to it now.
CARVILLE: Let me tell you what. He got out eight months early -- eight months early to go to Harvard, after he was a Yale cheerleader. You don't think that's an issue?
MAY: You know, no, I don't think it's an issue. Look...
CARVILLE: Why? How did he get out eight months? I didn't get out eight months early?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Let him answer the question, James.
MAY: First of all, John Kerry served. John Kerry got out early also from Vietnam. He served four months on the ground in Vietnam.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: This is not an issue.
CARVILLE: He got three Purple Hearts.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: All right, I'll tell you, the reason
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: Let me just answer this.
There's one thing that I think -- look, John -- John Kerry served honorably. But when he came back, he slandered his fellow veterans as war criminals.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: And don't you think that he should at least say and put it behind him that his fellow veterans, he doesn't believe what he said about them
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: Don't you think so, James?
NOVAK: Let me just -- let me -- wait a minute.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: Don't you think so?
CARVILLE: I think he had a right to speak out against the war.
MAY: I didn't say that. I didn't say that.
CARVILLE: Three Purple Hearts gave him that right.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: He said war criminals.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Let me just make it clear that -- that James didn't get out early, because he couldn't get admitted to any school.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: But let me change the subject, if I can.
Howard Dean, who is a very prominent Democrat, running for president, and let me just read you what he said the other day. He said: "Senator Kerry apparently supports the kind of politically corrupt fund-raising mechanism that George Bush has also employed. I think Senator Kerry is clearly not the person to carry the banner of the Democrats in this race because he has behaved so much like Republicans, both in his voting record and now in his political practices for fund-raising."
Doesn't Governor Dean have a point on that, when you find so many lobbyists contributing to Senator Kerry?
CRAIG: You'll not be surprised to find that I disagree with what Governor Dean said on that subject.
If you look at John Kerry's voting record in the United States Senate, you'll find a record that is absolutely independent and always pursuing the public interest, rather than private interest.
NOVAK: In other words, he can take the money and vote the other way?
(APPLAUSE)
CRAIG: He's not taken nearly the kind of money that other people have taken. He has -- for example, in the entirety of his career, he's taken less money than George Bush took in one year, this most recent year from special interests.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: So they -- so they -- so they both take the same kind of practice, though. CRAIG: No, no. No, no. The truth is -- and you know it, Mr. Novak -- that John Kerry has declined to take PAC contributions throughout his political career as a senator.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Let me show you this, because gay marriage is going to be an issue, according to Republicans. Let me show you somebody that something said something that I completely agree with. Can I see this float here, please? There it comes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, OCTOBER 5, 2000)
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The fact of the matter, of course, is, that matter is regulated by the states. I think different states are likely to come to different conclusions. And that's appropriate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: Now, that's Dick Cheney. Dick Cheney and I agree completely that this is something that
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: That wasn't gay marriage. That wasn't gay marriage. He was talking about civil unions, not gay marriage.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Civil unions. I agree completely. Can't we just take this off the table right now and just go back and let President Bush explain how he got out eight months early?
(LAUGHTER)
MAY: I think what we should -- look, the one thing we should do -- there are reasonable people on both sides, but a few judges in Massachusetts shouldn't be able to redefine marriage for the rest of the country, for the rest of the world, for the rest of the country forever.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: This is an issue in the campaign, you're saying?
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: ... issue in the campaign. It it an issue for John Kerry?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Is it bigger than a $10 trillion deficit? Is it bigger than going into Iraq with no plan to get out? Is it bigger than a trashing of the environment?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Let him answer the question.
CARVILLE: I'm just trying to get how big the issue is.
(APPLAUSE)
MAY: That's the thing about James.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Let him answer the question.
MAY: James, I think it's bigger than whether or not President Bush was a cheerleader or his National Guard service. I don't think it's bigger than who has the best idea for how we're going to win in Iraq and how we're going to help democracy prosper and how we're going to win the war on the terrorists.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: Which I would like to hear very much
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... any idea how we can win?
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: For three years, we have seen this president in action. Now we need to hear from John Kerry what he would do better. And we haven't heard this yet. We haven't heard it yet.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Mr. Craig, you brought up the question of special interests, that, despite taking so much money from lobbyists, Senator Kerry is against special interests. I really don't understand what a special interest is.
Is the pro-abortion lobby, which supports Senator Kerry, a special interest? Is the teachers union, which tries to stop all school choice and support Senator Kerry, a special interest? Are the big labor unions, which he falls in line, are they special interests?
CRAIG: Well, you're -- you're identifying political issues where you obviously disagree with him on. The concerns that we've got are special interests that pour millions and millions of dollars, like the oil industry and the mining industry and the timber industry.
NOVAK: And labor -- organized labor doesn't spend money
(CROSSTALK)
CRAIG: The pollution industry.
CARVILLE: Pollution industry. Let's call them what they are.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CRAIG: The insurance industry, the pharmaceutical industry, that paid millions and millions of dollars, $600,000 from Enron alone, into the Bush campaign.
NOVAK: The abortion -- the pro-abortion interests and the labor unions don't spend millions of dollars?
CRAIG: Those are individuals who also contribute to causes, not private interests.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: You see, the thing is, if you agree with the group that gives you money, then it's not a special interest. If you disagree, it's a special interest.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
MAY: All four of us are like Claude Raines being shocked at political contributions in Washington. This is another nonissue, James.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Right. And just like you say, it's a nonissue that he's a cheerleader at Yale, he got out of the military early to go to Harvard.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: He was in the National Guard.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... ask you about Harvard and Yale and all that Bush stuff, that elitist stuff that so much George Bush represents.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: And the elitist people that he wants to give these tax cuts to and all the elitism in that campaign.
MAY: Excuse me.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Let me ask you a question; 138 special interest tax breaks that this administration, this Congress, has started since the war started, 138 special interest tax breaks. (CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Isn't that -- isn't that revolting to the American people?
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: And what are those NASCAR dads going to find out when their boy's in the tank to every rich person in America?
(APPLAUSE)
MAY: You know, James, what's revolting -- what's revolting here, I'm afraid, is your hypocrisy. For you to talk about special interests and financial contributions, when you've been the most successful person I know in gathering them.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: No, no. No, no. We'll take a break. Out of time. Out of time.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Out of time, gentlemen.
Next, in "Rapid Fire," we'll ask Greg Craig if his old boss Bill Clinton is pushing for, would you believe it, a Kerry/Clark ticket?
And right after the break, Wolf Blitzer will have the latest on a growing crisis in Haiti which could impact communities along the Florida coast.
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to the live Washington audience, call 202-994-8CNN or e-mail us at CNN@gwu.edu. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
CARVILLE: It's time for "Rapid Fire," which goes by even faster than a lap at the Daytona 500. So, we have to ask questions in a hurry.
Our guests are former RNC Communications Director Cliff May and Kerry senior adviser and counselor Greg Craig.
NOVAK: Greg Craig, "The New York Post" reports that your former boss," Bill Clinton is putting pressure on the Kerry campaign to put General Clark on as the running mate with John Kerry, true or false? CRAIG: False. There's a lot of good people out there. Wes Clark is one of them. President Clinton will support whoever is on the ticket, I'm sure.
CARVILLE: What do you think should be a bigger issue in this marriage -- in this election.
(LAUGHTER)
MAY: Your marriage?
CARVILLE: In this election.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: The $10 trillion deficit that Bush is going to accumulate or gay marriage?
MAY: I hope it's the war against terrorists and the war in Iraq, so we can have a real substantive debate on that issue, James.
NOVAK: Greg, since the -- since the liberal ADA usually has put the voting record of John Kerry at 95 percent liberal for nearly every session, will you finally stipulate -- that's a good lawyer's word -- that John Kerry is a liberal?
CRAIG: Fine. If you want to call him a liberal, that's fine.
CARVILLE: OK.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Good for you. Thank you.
CARVILLE: Do you agree with Vice President Cheney's statement about the gays?
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: You know, I don't necessarily have a position. I think there is a difference between civil
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: Myself? No.
Look, between civil union and marriage, there is a difference. I think most people don't want to see marriage redefined by a bunch of judges in Massachusetts.
CARVILLE: You're not discriminating against anybody?
MAY: That's right.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: I agree with that.
CARVILLE: They want to get married. Don't let them get married?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Mr. Craig, since Senator Kerry -- since Senator Kerry voted for the Patriot Act in the first place, why won't he vote for the renewal of it?
CRAIG: I don't know that he won't. Has it come up yet?
NOVAK: Will he vote for the Patriot Act renewal?
CRAIG: I don't know the answer to that.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: ... repeal the Patriot Act.
NOVAK: OK, thank you very much, Greg Craig. Thank you very much.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Well, next, our audience fires back at us about Senator Hillary Clinton's future, God forbid.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Time for "Fireback," when the people get to fire back at us.
First question, please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, I'm Adam from Brainerd, Minnesota. Do you think Hillary Clinton will be considered for vice president?
NOVAK: Not a chance. I mean, that is the -- that is the left- wing ticket of all time.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: I don't think the senator from Massachusetts is going to pick the senator from New York. I think it will probably be a little more balanced than that. But who knows? She'd -- I'll tell you what. She'd be a great vice president and great president.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Next question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, I'm Jessica (ph) from Foggy Bottom. And I'm wondering if Teresa Heinz Kerry will be an asset or a liability to Kerry's campaign? CARVILLE: Well, she's already been a tremendous asset. And, by the way, somebody worth $1 billion is always going to be an asset.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: I'll tell you, the biggest asset anybody can have is a rich wife.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: I wouldn't know about it myself.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Next question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, my name is Amman (ph) from Falls Church, Virginia.
I was wondering, regardless of the fact that the Dean candidacy is fading, what effect do you think his campaign will have on the election in November? Will his ability to energize the Democratic base be a big asset for the Democrats?
NOVAK: Well, it just shows how many nut bags there are around the country. So that's...
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: That's been the whole point.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Let me just say this. Mrs. Kerry, Mrs. Heinz is not only rich in money. She's rich in ideas. And she gives him a lot of support. She's a very, very bright woman.
NOVAK: Suck, suck, suck, suck up.
Go ahead.
CARVILLE: She's a bright woman.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Go ahead. Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, I'm Dan from Danville, California.
I was wondering if cable news outlets should be more responsible in anointing a front-runner in the pre-election primary period?
NOVAK: No, they shouldn't be more responsible. There's too much responsibility as there is, I think. (LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: We need less responsibility in America today. There's too much responsibility across this great land.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak.
Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
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