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CNN Crossfire
Mel Gibson's Passion
Aired February 25, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: Mel Gibson's controversial "The Passion of the Christ" begins showing in theaters across the country today. Some say this film tells the central story of their Christian faith. Others say it is an unfair attack on Jews. All agree it's violent and bloody. Is this a movie you want to see?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Paul Begala and I have just returned from a midday matinee, and so we will be debating the merits of Mel Gibson's new film, "The Passion of the Christ."
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Some critics have panned it. Some preachers have embraced it. And some have even accused Mr. Gibson's film of spreading anti-Semitism. CROSSFIRE goes to the movies right after the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
One of Republican National Committee Chairman and former Enron lobbyist Ed Gillespie's favorite attacks on Senator John Kerry is the notion that Kerry is first among senators in receiving special interest money. Now, as Peter Beinart of "The New Republic" has noted, Kerry is actually 92nd out of 100 senators in special interest money, not first.
Gillespie, a former lobbyist for Enron, misleads you by ignoring that Senator Kerry has not taken a dime from political action committees for 20 years, not a dime. Nor does Gillespie, who was a Washington lobbyist for Enron, note that George W. Bush has raised more special interest money in one night that John Kerry has his whole career.
One Bush aide says that the issue is hypocrisy, telling "The Washington Post" -- quote -- "You don't hear the president and the Oval Office railing against the special interests" -- unquote. No, you don't. Just ask former Enron lobbyist Ed Gillespie. Once he's been bought, George W. Bush stays bought.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: That is so -- first of all, the charge, which is true, was levied by "The Washington Post." And that is that Kerry is the single largest recipient of lobbyist money.
BEGALA: But not Enron lobbyists.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Which would be Ed Gillespie, the Enron lobbyist.
CARLSON: Paul, I'm the only person in Washington -- I'm the only person in Washington who has not received Enron money.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I've never taken a dime from Enron.
CARLSON: Paul Krugman, from "The New York Times," your favorite left-wing columnist.
BEGALA: But you're not in charge of the Republican Party.
CARLSON: Paul Krugman took money from Enron.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Everyone did.
BEGALA: George Bush put a...
CARLSON: Who cares?
BEGALA: ... lobbyist for Enron in charge of his party. It was once a great party, the party of Lincoln and Eisenhower.
CARLSON: Who cares? It's about ideas.
BEGALA: And now it's the party of Enron and Ken Lay and Ed Gillespie.
CARLSON: Well, last October, speaking of ideas, John Kerry gave a speech to the Arab American Institute in Michigan in which he denounced the Israeli government's planned to wall off parts of the occupied territories. Such a wall, Kerry said, would be -- quote -- "provocative and counterproductive," something that would -- quote -- "increase the hardships to the Palestinian people. We don't need another barrier to peace," Mr. Kerry said. That was then.
Now, the New York primary just less than a week away, Kerry has a whole new view of that very same wall. This week, as columnist Mickey Kaus points out, Kerry is describing the wall as -- quote -- "a legitimate act of self-defense." So which is it? Is the wall a barrier to peace or is it a legitimate act of self-defense?
For the moment, it's both. But that may change. And that's the beauty of being John Kerry. There is nothing, not an education bill, not a Patriot Act, not even a war, that you can't support now and denounce later.
BEGALA: So, you know what?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Then also, Tucker, denounce our president, who, on July 29th, standing with Ariel Sharon, said that he hoped in the long term, the fence would be irrelevant. He said he wants a dialogue to make sure the fence sends the right signal that not only is security important, but the ability for the Palestinians to live a normal life is important. That's what he said in July.
In August, he turned around and said, well, the fence is the problem. So Mr. Bush has been on both sides of the same issue as well.
CARLSON: Actually...
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Actually, that sounds like the exact same point.
BEGALA: No, it's not.
CARLSON: The Sharon government has ignored the Bush administration's requests to move the wall. That's a separate debate. But John Kerry
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Mr. Bush has been on both sides of that fence, my friend.
Well, speaking of our president, no fair-minded person could ever really doubt that President Bush loves our country. But it's equally true that Mr. Bush hates our Constitution. His latest proposal to tamper with Mr. Madison's masterpiece has drawn opposition -- opposition -- or skepticism, at least, from such noted conservatives as House Republican Leader Tom DeLay and Republican Rules Committee Chairman David Dreier.
But discrimination against gays isn't the only political platform Mr. Bush wants to write into our Constitution. He also supports amending the Constitution to ban abortions, to criminalize flag burning, to legalize forced school prayer, to protect crime victims' rights, and to create a line-item veto.
And, just to prove he's got a sense of humor, Mr. Bush wants to amend the Constitution to require a balanced budget, this from the greatest deficit spender in American history. So, it is really not at all conservative. It's just to say that Mr. Bush is either a menace to the Constitution or a posturing political phony of the first order. But you know what? I'm not doing him justice. Actually, he's both.
CARLSON: You know, I think it's unfair.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I agree with you we ought not to be tampering with the Constitution willy-nilly.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Bush said as much yesterday.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: it's unfair to write off anybody who disagrees with gay marriage as discriminatory or a bigoted, as you just did. This is a very important conversation. What constitutes marriage?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He would literally discriminate, saying some people can get married and others cannot.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And you don't want to have this conversation, because you know it's a loser for your side. We need to talk about what is marriage.
BEGALA: Seven constitutional amendment, seven, from a conservative. Seven.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: OK.
Well, there were three Democratic contests around the country yesterday. The massive John Kerry for president political machine swept all three, not surprisingly, but that's not the whole story. Beneath that headline is another. The only former kingdom in the United States embraced the only practicing vegan in the presidential race. That's right. Hawaii went for Dennis Kucinich, partly anyway. Kucinich came in second in the Hawaii caucuses, becoming the only candidate, aside from Kerry, to win delegates.
By the end of the day, he'd won 30 percent of the 4,000 Democrats who voted statewide. But those numbers don't convey the extent of the growing Kucinich juggernaut. On the island of Maui, Mr. Kucinich won a full 50 percent. That's the highest concentration of Kucinich support measured anywhere on this planet to date.
It should also be said for the record that Maui produces some of the world's most potent marijuana.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Connection? You decide.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Now, Dennis Kucinich, to his great credit, has said he's never smoked marijuana. And so I believe him on that.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: As much as I like Dennis Kucinich, you and I know. Be real. Come on, Paul.
BEGALA: No, I believe him. George Bush never answered the question, nor does he have an obligation to tell us whether he used drugs. But Mr. Kucinich hasn't.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I don't think you're going to be voting for Mr. Kucinich unless you smoke a lot of pot, to be honest.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: And I have nothing against Mr. Kucinich. He's a man of principle. I hate how Democrats dismiss him.
BEGALA: You just dismissed him.
CARLSON: No, I didn't. I like him.
BEGALA: You mocked him.
CARLSON: OK.
It's a film with an appropriate title. Next, the passion over Mel Gibson's version of the last hours of Jesus Christ. Is it too violent? Are the charges of anti-Semitism valid or are they hysteria?
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Mel Gibson's long-awaited movie "The Passion of the Christ" opened today. It carries an R-rating for graphic violence, and it should. But should a film based strictly on the New Testament be called anti-Semitic? Is Christianity intrinsically bigoted? That's the claim, offensive as it is.
In the CROSSFIRE, from New York, Rabbi Robert Levine. He's the vice president of the New York Board of Rabbis, along with William Donahue, president of the Catholic League. Thanks for joining us.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Gentlemen, thank you both.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Bill, my friend and brother in faith, you do so much to defend our church from discrimination. Now the charge is anti- Semitism, voiced by many critics.
But here's one. Jami Bernard, "The New York Daily" film critic, writes thus: "Mel Gibson's 'The Passion of the Christ" the most virulently anti-Semitic movie since the German propaganda films of World War II. Jews are vilified in ways both little and big pretty much nonstop for two hours, seven minutes."
That's a strong charge, isn't it?
WILLIAM DONAHUE, PRESIDENT, CATHOLIC LEAGUE: Yes, it is.
And, unfortunately, for her, she's going to look like she has egg all over her face, because the American people will speak on this issue. And they already are doing it. She's in a very fringe minority. She also said the movie is too violent. Yet her favorite movie of the year 2000 was "Gladiator."
She called the movie S&M. And yet one of her favorite movies was "Quills" about the Marquis de Sade. So, no, look, if this movie were really anti-Semitic, Maia Morgenstern, the woman who plays our blessed mother, whose father escaped from the Holocaust, wouldn't be praising the movie, along with many, many other Jews.
Sometimes, these things split along political fault lines. There are some Catholics who don't like the movie, as well. I think, at the end of the day, it is true that every Catholic leader and every Christian leader should be clear about this. Collective guilt ascribed to Jews or anybody throughout history is wrong.
I'm Irish. My people have been beaten up by the English for 700 years. It doesn't make it right for me to go around hating the English. But you know what? If you make a movie about what the Irish have done to -- the English have done to the Irish, yes, the English aren't going to look good. The Germans don't look good in "Schindler's List."
CARLSON: Mr. Donahue, I want to get Rabbi Levine in here.
We just saw the movie, Rabbi. And, as you doubtless know, it tracks pretty closely the New Testament. It tells the story pretty faithfully. If you consider it anti-Semitic, you're essentially saying the Gospels themselves are anti-Semitic. Your problem is with the religion, isn't it?
RABBI ROBERT LEVINE, VICE PRESIDENT, NEW YORK BOARD OF RABBIS: Not at all.
What we saw on film today was the Gospel according to Mel. It was the passion play that has plagued our people for close to 1,000 years transferred onto the movie screen. The Romans came off as saints. Pontius Pilate was tortured. He didn't want to do it. It was the Jews who forced him into it. First century Jews were not powerful enough to do this. They, and Jesus, were the same both. Jews in the first century, their temple -- our temple was destroyed. We and Jesus were both victims of the Romans.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Hold on here. I think you're mistaken in a fairly profound way. Jesus was Jewish, which is another way of saying he and the Jews cannot be separated that way. The hero of this film is Jewish. All the heroes of this film are Jewish, as are the villains. So where is the anti-Semitism specifically?
LEVINE: In the way that he treats the high priests, the rabble, everybody screaming, crucify him. Pontius Pilate, of course, doesn't want to do it. Pontius Pilate is removed by Rome a few years later for being to autocratic and vicious.
But in this -- in Mel Gibson's Gospel, the Gospel according to Mel, he is tortured. He doesn't want to do it. But it's only the Jews. Now, people have said to us, boy, this movie does not talk about the responsibility of the Jews. It's the responsibility of everyone. Christ died for everyone's sins.
That's not the film Gibson makes. You can't have it both ways. You can't say this is a film of universal brotherhood and then vilify the Jews as he did. I kept looking for the prophet Jesus in this movie, something ennobling, something to justify the suffering. All I could see
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Rabbi, let me -- yes, let bring Bill Donahue in.
In fact, to pick up on that point, Bill, I disagree with you that this breaks down along political lines. I don't know of a Christian magazine more conservative than "World. It's published, I believe, by Marvin Olasky, or he's a participant in it. He's a conservative Christian thinker.
And Andrew Coffin, writing in "World" magazine wrote this: "To focus so heavily on Christ's physical suffering verges on a distortion of what was really happening in these events. Christ died not, ultimately, at the hand of Romans or Jews, but according to the will of His heavenly Father. For the sins of believers, he willingly bore the father's just and holy wrath, far worse prospect, a upon His shoulders, completing a spiritual task that is represented, but not exhausted, by the physical suffering of the cross. He was no mere martyr."
So here's a conservative Christian saying he doesn't approve of the movie because it focuses too much on the suffering.
DONAHUE: Well, that's true. You're right about that, Paul.
There's a priest friend of mine who wrote an article about it today, pretty much the same. But there are some Catholics who are -- I call them soup kitchen Catholics, OK? They want everything to be rosy. They like guitar masses. They like everything about love and peace. And isn't it nice? But you know what? If you don't
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: But Jesus was pretty big on love and peace, wasn't he?
DONAHUE: If -- you know what? Well, let them make their own movie.
This is about the dramatization of the death of Jesus Christ and why he died for all of us. Mel Gibson is not going to sugarcoat the crucifixion and the scourging. These people want to talk about the platitudes. There's a lot of good things about Christ's teaching where we can reach out to each other.
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: But watching somebody fault a movie because it didn't fit their expectations.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: But, Bill
(CROSSTALK)
LEVINE: Because it's inaccurate, Bill.
Forty -- there are 40 scriptural inaccuracies that Catholic Christian scholars have sent back to Gibson. He ignored every one of them. Listen to Cardinal Egan's statement today.
(CROSSTALK)
LEVINE: Listen to the bishops of Europe. Many, many Catholics are saying this film is not accurate.
CARLSON: Wait a second, Rabbi.
(CROSSTALK)
LEVINE: I'd like you to make the film but, unfortunately, Mel did it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Wait. Rabbi Levine, just to be clear, you are not a Christian theologian.
LEVINE: No.
CARLSON: I want you to answer a question that Mr. Donahue raised. It was very interesting. "Braveheart," for instance, a movie that Mel Gibson made a number of years ago, portrays the British as savages. Why is that not a bigoted film? Which is another way of saying, simply because individuals are portrayed in a negative light does not constitute an indictment of an entire group. It's a pretty simple concept. Do you not understand that?
LEVINE: I understand it, Tucker, perfectly.
But the fact is that I would like some accurate portrayal of who the high priests and who the leadership of the first century was. Gibson doesn't have the slightest understanding of who they are.
CARLSON: So tell us, in two sentences, what is the accurate -- what is the accurate perception that none of us are aware of, but you are?
LEVINE: The accurate perception of the Jews of the first century are those who were victims of Rome's political persecution.
We were -- we, as Jesus, were fighting for our lives. We were disagreeing mightily as to how to resist Rome. But everybody was resisting Rome. We were not standing at the foot of Pontius Pilate screaming, crucify him, crucify him, and enjoying the pain and enjoying -- Jews are vilified throughout this movie. And Catholic scholars, Cardinal Egan today said, Jews are not responsible. Gibson makes us responsible. And I don't want a reinvigoration of the, you know, they killed our God debate, which for 1,000 years has caused religious persecution.
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: There is nothing that Cardinal Egan said today that Mel Gibson doesn't say. It's wrong to blame all Jews back then. It's even crazier to blame all Jews today.
But don't tell me that there weren't some Jews who clamored for Christ to be crucified. We know this from history. Mel Gibson owes nothing to these Catholic and Jewish theologians. He's not an altar boy...
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: ... serving up a documentary who has to vet his script by some of these intellectual types.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
LEVINE: We -- we there is no -- you show me the scriptural evidence, Bill, of Jew-to-Jew torture. You show me where Jewish authorities in the first century did to Jesus what Gibson did to Jesus in the movie. Show me the evidence. Show me the evidence.
DONAHUE: According to what you're saying, this movie is anti- Italian because the Romans come across as brutes. This is crazy. Look, the fact of the matter is...
LEVINE: No, sir.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: The challenge was
(CROSSTALK)
LEVINE: There is a 1,000-year history of the passion play being cause for anti-Semitism. I hope this doesn't invigorate it. Since the Second Vatican Council, there has been tremendous progress in Catholic-Jewish relations. You know that, Bill.
DONAHUE: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
LEVINE: I do want this movie setting us back.
DONAHUE: There will be no pogroms in the streets and you know it.
BEGALA: Bill, you will have to -- you will have to hold that thought, Bill and Rabbi. Hang on just a second. We're going to take a quick break.
And when we return, we will put this debate through the "Rapid Fire," if it's possible to speed it up.
And, right after the break, this news, a call for cuts in Social Security benefits from Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan. Our own Wolf Blitzer will have the latest.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
BEGALA: Thank you, Wolf.
Time now for "Rapid Fire." We're discussing "The Passion of the Christ," Mel Gibson's new film about the crucifixion of Jesus. We're discussing it with William Donahue, the president of the Catholic League, and Rabbi Robert Levine, vice president of the New York Board of Rabbis.
Gentlemen.
CARLSON: Rabbi, a minute ago, when you were describing the Jewish mob portrayed in the film, you used the word "we" over and over. "We're portrayed badly," etcetera, etcetera. These are people you don't know, have nothing essentially to do with. I thought it was an odd phrasing. Do you really feel a kinship to first century Pharisees? What specifically do you have to do with them? LEVINE: Well, for us, what is being depicted there is every crude stereotype of the Jew, from Jews and money to the -- the evil faces there. We know what's going on there.
And what Bill has to understand, he is the first to speak out against anti-Semitism and all prejudice. But what he has to understand is, as this is translated around the world, in Europe, in the Arab countries, in South America, the number of people who can take material like this and use it for their own purposes, purposes that they may have walked into the movie with, we do not need a film like this. There's enough problems with anti-Semitism around the world.
BEGALA: Bill Donahue, isn't -- wasn't it unseemly for certain right-wingers to try to drag a pope into this? The holy father has done more to advance the cause of Catholic Jewish relations than any pope in history and they tried to make him into a movie reviewer. They invented some quote saying that the holy father praised this.
Isn't it unseemly to try to make our holy father into some kind of a flack for somebody's movie?
DONAHUE: All he said was a few words. "It is as it was." Now, I know what you're going to tell me.
BEGALA: He never said that, Bill.
DONAHUE: Yes, he -- yes, in fact, he did. I'm not going to name the name right now. But let me tell you something right now.
BEGALA: That's not what his personal secretary, the archbishop says. He says, no, the holy father has kept it to himself.
DONAHUE: I'm going to tell you, I know the name of a top ranking official in the Vatican who is a liar. And he's admitted that he's a liar about this.
BEGALA: Are you going to our holy father endorsing sneakers next? He's endorsing films today, sneakers tomorrow?
DONAHUE: He didn't endorse it.
BEGALA: They're trying to debase the papacy with this.
DONAHUE: He didn't endorse it. He said, it is as it was. My God, the sky is not going to fall. Look, when Catholics go to church on Saturday night and Sunday morning, they say that
(BELL RINGING)
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Mr. Donahue, I'm sorry. We're going to have to cut you off there. I would like to know what the pope really said, but we are totally out in time.
In New York, Bill Donahue, thank you very much.
Rabbi Levine, thank you very much. We appreciate it.
BEGALA: Thank you, gentlemen.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Next viewers fire back about "The Passion of Christ."
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
"The Passion of the Christ" opened today, but, apparently, a lot of our viewers have already seen it, judging by our e-mail.
First up -- first up is Tony Cathey from Dayton, Tennessee, writes: "In regard to 'The Passion,' I think that we as Christians have heard the story of Jesus' birth, life and death so often, we take it for granted the impact his death truly had on our lives. This movie will reawaken our spirits and make us truly grateful for the pain he took in our place."
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: A dissenting view from Laleh of Richmond, British Columbia. Laleh writes: "Over the last couple weeks, the Mel Gibson story has received too much attention from the media. It's disturbing to think that all the extra controversy may very well help increase ticket sales and exposure of what otherwise appears to be a violent, hateful, and vague interpretation of the story of Jesus."
I do have to say, there's something unseemly about profiting off of the suffering of Jesus, which Mel Gibson seems intent on doing. He should give the money to the poor, though.
CARLSON: There's nothing hateful or vague about it. That sounds like someone who never saw the movie.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: She should go ahead and watch it.
BEGALA: He shouldn't profit from it, though.
CARLSON: Lisa Murphy from Fort Lauderdale writes: "The parents concerned with the violence in this film, are these the same parents taking their children to see movies like 'Texas Chainsaw Massacre'? What has become of our values?"
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Yes, I mean, I guess there's pointless violence and violence with a point. I think this is in the latter category.
BEGALA: Well, I was proud to see Bill Donahue defend artistic freedom. I will make sure my conservative friends do it the next movie that comes along.
From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" is next. Happy Ash Wednesday. See you tomorrow.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
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Aired February 25, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: Mel Gibson's controversial "The Passion of the Christ" begins showing in theaters across the country today. Some say this film tells the central story of their Christian faith. Others say it is an unfair attack on Jews. All agree it's violent and bloody. Is this a movie you want to see?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Paul Begala and I have just returned from a midday matinee, and so we will be debating the merits of Mel Gibson's new film, "The Passion of the Christ."
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Some critics have panned it. Some preachers have embraced it. And some have even accused Mr. Gibson's film of spreading anti-Semitism. CROSSFIRE goes to the movies right after the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
One of Republican National Committee Chairman and former Enron lobbyist Ed Gillespie's favorite attacks on Senator John Kerry is the notion that Kerry is first among senators in receiving special interest money. Now, as Peter Beinart of "The New Republic" has noted, Kerry is actually 92nd out of 100 senators in special interest money, not first.
Gillespie, a former lobbyist for Enron, misleads you by ignoring that Senator Kerry has not taken a dime from political action committees for 20 years, not a dime. Nor does Gillespie, who was a Washington lobbyist for Enron, note that George W. Bush has raised more special interest money in one night that John Kerry has his whole career.
One Bush aide says that the issue is hypocrisy, telling "The Washington Post" -- quote -- "You don't hear the president and the Oval Office railing against the special interests" -- unquote. No, you don't. Just ask former Enron lobbyist Ed Gillespie. Once he's been bought, George W. Bush stays bought.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: That is so -- first of all, the charge, which is true, was levied by "The Washington Post." And that is that Kerry is the single largest recipient of lobbyist money.
BEGALA: But not Enron lobbyists.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Which would be Ed Gillespie, the Enron lobbyist.
CARLSON: Paul, I'm the only person in Washington -- I'm the only person in Washington who has not received Enron money.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I've never taken a dime from Enron.
CARLSON: Paul Krugman, from "The New York Times," your favorite left-wing columnist.
BEGALA: But you're not in charge of the Republican Party.
CARLSON: Paul Krugman took money from Enron.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Everyone did.
BEGALA: George Bush put a...
CARLSON: Who cares?
BEGALA: ... lobbyist for Enron in charge of his party. It was once a great party, the party of Lincoln and Eisenhower.
CARLSON: Who cares? It's about ideas.
BEGALA: And now it's the party of Enron and Ken Lay and Ed Gillespie.
CARLSON: Well, last October, speaking of ideas, John Kerry gave a speech to the Arab American Institute in Michigan in which he denounced the Israeli government's planned to wall off parts of the occupied territories. Such a wall, Kerry said, would be -- quote -- "provocative and counterproductive," something that would -- quote -- "increase the hardships to the Palestinian people. We don't need another barrier to peace," Mr. Kerry said. That was then.
Now, the New York primary just less than a week away, Kerry has a whole new view of that very same wall. This week, as columnist Mickey Kaus points out, Kerry is describing the wall as -- quote -- "a legitimate act of self-defense." So which is it? Is the wall a barrier to peace or is it a legitimate act of self-defense?
For the moment, it's both. But that may change. And that's the beauty of being John Kerry. There is nothing, not an education bill, not a Patriot Act, not even a war, that you can't support now and denounce later.
BEGALA: So, you know what?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Then also, Tucker, denounce our president, who, on July 29th, standing with Ariel Sharon, said that he hoped in the long term, the fence would be irrelevant. He said he wants a dialogue to make sure the fence sends the right signal that not only is security important, but the ability for the Palestinians to live a normal life is important. That's what he said in July.
In August, he turned around and said, well, the fence is the problem. So Mr. Bush has been on both sides of the same issue as well.
CARLSON: Actually...
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Actually, that sounds like the exact same point.
BEGALA: No, it's not.
CARLSON: The Sharon government has ignored the Bush administration's requests to move the wall. That's a separate debate. But John Kerry
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Mr. Bush has been on both sides of that fence, my friend.
Well, speaking of our president, no fair-minded person could ever really doubt that President Bush loves our country. But it's equally true that Mr. Bush hates our Constitution. His latest proposal to tamper with Mr. Madison's masterpiece has drawn opposition -- opposition -- or skepticism, at least, from such noted conservatives as House Republican Leader Tom DeLay and Republican Rules Committee Chairman David Dreier.
But discrimination against gays isn't the only political platform Mr. Bush wants to write into our Constitution. He also supports amending the Constitution to ban abortions, to criminalize flag burning, to legalize forced school prayer, to protect crime victims' rights, and to create a line-item veto.
And, just to prove he's got a sense of humor, Mr. Bush wants to amend the Constitution to require a balanced budget, this from the greatest deficit spender in American history. So, it is really not at all conservative. It's just to say that Mr. Bush is either a menace to the Constitution or a posturing political phony of the first order. But you know what? I'm not doing him justice. Actually, he's both.
CARLSON: You know, I think it's unfair.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I agree with you we ought not to be tampering with the Constitution willy-nilly.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Bush said as much yesterday.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: it's unfair to write off anybody who disagrees with gay marriage as discriminatory or a bigoted, as you just did. This is a very important conversation. What constitutes marriage?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He would literally discriminate, saying some people can get married and others cannot.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And you don't want to have this conversation, because you know it's a loser for your side. We need to talk about what is marriage.
BEGALA: Seven constitutional amendment, seven, from a conservative. Seven.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: OK.
Well, there were three Democratic contests around the country yesterday. The massive John Kerry for president political machine swept all three, not surprisingly, but that's not the whole story. Beneath that headline is another. The only former kingdom in the United States embraced the only practicing vegan in the presidential race. That's right. Hawaii went for Dennis Kucinich, partly anyway. Kucinich came in second in the Hawaii caucuses, becoming the only candidate, aside from Kerry, to win delegates.
By the end of the day, he'd won 30 percent of the 4,000 Democrats who voted statewide. But those numbers don't convey the extent of the growing Kucinich juggernaut. On the island of Maui, Mr. Kucinich won a full 50 percent. That's the highest concentration of Kucinich support measured anywhere on this planet to date.
It should also be said for the record that Maui produces some of the world's most potent marijuana.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Connection? You decide.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Now, Dennis Kucinich, to his great credit, has said he's never smoked marijuana. And so I believe him on that.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: As much as I like Dennis Kucinich, you and I know. Be real. Come on, Paul.
BEGALA: No, I believe him. George Bush never answered the question, nor does he have an obligation to tell us whether he used drugs. But Mr. Kucinich hasn't.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I don't think you're going to be voting for Mr. Kucinich unless you smoke a lot of pot, to be honest.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: And I have nothing against Mr. Kucinich. He's a man of principle. I hate how Democrats dismiss him.
BEGALA: You just dismissed him.
CARLSON: No, I didn't. I like him.
BEGALA: You mocked him.
CARLSON: OK.
It's a film with an appropriate title. Next, the passion over Mel Gibson's version of the last hours of Jesus Christ. Is it too violent? Are the charges of anti-Semitism valid or are they hysteria?
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Mel Gibson's long-awaited movie "The Passion of the Christ" opened today. It carries an R-rating for graphic violence, and it should. But should a film based strictly on the New Testament be called anti-Semitic? Is Christianity intrinsically bigoted? That's the claim, offensive as it is.
In the CROSSFIRE, from New York, Rabbi Robert Levine. He's the vice president of the New York Board of Rabbis, along with William Donahue, president of the Catholic League. Thanks for joining us.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Gentlemen, thank you both.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Bill, my friend and brother in faith, you do so much to defend our church from discrimination. Now the charge is anti- Semitism, voiced by many critics.
But here's one. Jami Bernard, "The New York Daily" film critic, writes thus: "Mel Gibson's 'The Passion of the Christ" the most virulently anti-Semitic movie since the German propaganda films of World War II. Jews are vilified in ways both little and big pretty much nonstop for two hours, seven minutes."
That's a strong charge, isn't it?
WILLIAM DONAHUE, PRESIDENT, CATHOLIC LEAGUE: Yes, it is.
And, unfortunately, for her, she's going to look like she has egg all over her face, because the American people will speak on this issue. And they already are doing it. She's in a very fringe minority. She also said the movie is too violent. Yet her favorite movie of the year 2000 was "Gladiator."
She called the movie S&M. And yet one of her favorite movies was "Quills" about the Marquis de Sade. So, no, look, if this movie were really anti-Semitic, Maia Morgenstern, the woman who plays our blessed mother, whose father escaped from the Holocaust, wouldn't be praising the movie, along with many, many other Jews.
Sometimes, these things split along political fault lines. There are some Catholics who don't like the movie, as well. I think, at the end of the day, it is true that every Catholic leader and every Christian leader should be clear about this. Collective guilt ascribed to Jews or anybody throughout history is wrong.
I'm Irish. My people have been beaten up by the English for 700 years. It doesn't make it right for me to go around hating the English. But you know what? If you make a movie about what the Irish have done to -- the English have done to the Irish, yes, the English aren't going to look good. The Germans don't look good in "Schindler's List."
CARLSON: Mr. Donahue, I want to get Rabbi Levine in here.
We just saw the movie, Rabbi. And, as you doubtless know, it tracks pretty closely the New Testament. It tells the story pretty faithfully. If you consider it anti-Semitic, you're essentially saying the Gospels themselves are anti-Semitic. Your problem is with the religion, isn't it?
RABBI ROBERT LEVINE, VICE PRESIDENT, NEW YORK BOARD OF RABBIS: Not at all.
What we saw on film today was the Gospel according to Mel. It was the passion play that has plagued our people for close to 1,000 years transferred onto the movie screen. The Romans came off as saints. Pontius Pilate was tortured. He didn't want to do it. It was the Jews who forced him into it. First century Jews were not powerful enough to do this. They, and Jesus, were the same both. Jews in the first century, their temple -- our temple was destroyed. We and Jesus were both victims of the Romans.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Hold on here. I think you're mistaken in a fairly profound way. Jesus was Jewish, which is another way of saying he and the Jews cannot be separated that way. The hero of this film is Jewish. All the heroes of this film are Jewish, as are the villains. So where is the anti-Semitism specifically?
LEVINE: In the way that he treats the high priests, the rabble, everybody screaming, crucify him. Pontius Pilate, of course, doesn't want to do it. Pontius Pilate is removed by Rome a few years later for being to autocratic and vicious.
But in this -- in Mel Gibson's Gospel, the Gospel according to Mel, he is tortured. He doesn't want to do it. But it's only the Jews. Now, people have said to us, boy, this movie does not talk about the responsibility of the Jews. It's the responsibility of everyone. Christ died for everyone's sins.
That's not the film Gibson makes. You can't have it both ways. You can't say this is a film of universal brotherhood and then vilify the Jews as he did. I kept looking for the prophet Jesus in this movie, something ennobling, something to justify the suffering. All I could see
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Rabbi, let me -- yes, let bring Bill Donahue in.
In fact, to pick up on that point, Bill, I disagree with you that this breaks down along political lines. I don't know of a Christian magazine more conservative than "World. It's published, I believe, by Marvin Olasky, or he's a participant in it. He's a conservative Christian thinker.
And Andrew Coffin, writing in "World" magazine wrote this: "To focus so heavily on Christ's physical suffering verges on a distortion of what was really happening in these events. Christ died not, ultimately, at the hand of Romans or Jews, but according to the will of His heavenly Father. For the sins of believers, he willingly bore the father's just and holy wrath, far worse prospect, a upon His shoulders, completing a spiritual task that is represented, but not exhausted, by the physical suffering of the cross. He was no mere martyr."
So here's a conservative Christian saying he doesn't approve of the movie because it focuses too much on the suffering.
DONAHUE: Well, that's true. You're right about that, Paul.
There's a priest friend of mine who wrote an article about it today, pretty much the same. But there are some Catholics who are -- I call them soup kitchen Catholics, OK? They want everything to be rosy. They like guitar masses. They like everything about love and peace. And isn't it nice? But you know what? If you don't
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: But Jesus was pretty big on love and peace, wasn't he?
DONAHUE: If -- you know what? Well, let them make their own movie.
This is about the dramatization of the death of Jesus Christ and why he died for all of us. Mel Gibson is not going to sugarcoat the crucifixion and the scourging. These people want to talk about the platitudes. There's a lot of good things about Christ's teaching where we can reach out to each other.
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: But watching somebody fault a movie because it didn't fit their expectations.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: But, Bill
(CROSSTALK)
LEVINE: Because it's inaccurate, Bill.
Forty -- there are 40 scriptural inaccuracies that Catholic Christian scholars have sent back to Gibson. He ignored every one of them. Listen to Cardinal Egan's statement today.
(CROSSTALK)
LEVINE: Listen to the bishops of Europe. Many, many Catholics are saying this film is not accurate.
CARLSON: Wait a second, Rabbi.
(CROSSTALK)
LEVINE: I'd like you to make the film but, unfortunately, Mel did it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Wait. Rabbi Levine, just to be clear, you are not a Christian theologian.
LEVINE: No.
CARLSON: I want you to answer a question that Mr. Donahue raised. It was very interesting. "Braveheart," for instance, a movie that Mel Gibson made a number of years ago, portrays the British as savages. Why is that not a bigoted film? Which is another way of saying, simply because individuals are portrayed in a negative light does not constitute an indictment of an entire group. It's a pretty simple concept. Do you not understand that?
LEVINE: I understand it, Tucker, perfectly.
But the fact is that I would like some accurate portrayal of who the high priests and who the leadership of the first century was. Gibson doesn't have the slightest understanding of who they are.
CARLSON: So tell us, in two sentences, what is the accurate -- what is the accurate perception that none of us are aware of, but you are?
LEVINE: The accurate perception of the Jews of the first century are those who were victims of Rome's political persecution.
We were -- we, as Jesus, were fighting for our lives. We were disagreeing mightily as to how to resist Rome. But everybody was resisting Rome. We were not standing at the foot of Pontius Pilate screaming, crucify him, crucify him, and enjoying the pain and enjoying -- Jews are vilified throughout this movie. And Catholic scholars, Cardinal Egan today said, Jews are not responsible. Gibson makes us responsible. And I don't want a reinvigoration of the, you know, they killed our God debate, which for 1,000 years has caused religious persecution.
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: There is nothing that Cardinal Egan said today that Mel Gibson doesn't say. It's wrong to blame all Jews back then. It's even crazier to blame all Jews today.
But don't tell me that there weren't some Jews who clamored for Christ to be crucified. We know this from history. Mel Gibson owes nothing to these Catholic and Jewish theologians. He's not an altar boy...
(CROSSTALK)
DONAHUE: ... serving up a documentary who has to vet his script by some of these intellectual types.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
LEVINE: We -- we there is no -- you show me the scriptural evidence, Bill, of Jew-to-Jew torture. You show me where Jewish authorities in the first century did to Jesus what Gibson did to Jesus in the movie. Show me the evidence. Show me the evidence.
DONAHUE: According to what you're saying, this movie is anti- Italian because the Romans come across as brutes. This is crazy. Look, the fact of the matter is...
LEVINE: No, sir.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: The challenge was
(CROSSTALK)
LEVINE: There is a 1,000-year history of the passion play being cause for anti-Semitism. I hope this doesn't invigorate it. Since the Second Vatican Council, there has been tremendous progress in Catholic-Jewish relations. You know that, Bill.
DONAHUE: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
LEVINE: I do want this movie setting us back.
DONAHUE: There will be no pogroms in the streets and you know it.
BEGALA: Bill, you will have to -- you will have to hold that thought, Bill and Rabbi. Hang on just a second. We're going to take a quick break.
And when we return, we will put this debate through the "Rapid Fire," if it's possible to speed it up.
And, right after the break, this news, a call for cuts in Social Security benefits from Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan. Our own Wolf Blitzer will have the latest.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
BEGALA: Thank you, Wolf.
Time now for "Rapid Fire." We're discussing "The Passion of the Christ," Mel Gibson's new film about the crucifixion of Jesus. We're discussing it with William Donahue, the president of the Catholic League, and Rabbi Robert Levine, vice president of the New York Board of Rabbis.
Gentlemen.
CARLSON: Rabbi, a minute ago, when you were describing the Jewish mob portrayed in the film, you used the word "we" over and over. "We're portrayed badly," etcetera, etcetera. These are people you don't know, have nothing essentially to do with. I thought it was an odd phrasing. Do you really feel a kinship to first century Pharisees? What specifically do you have to do with them? LEVINE: Well, for us, what is being depicted there is every crude stereotype of the Jew, from Jews and money to the -- the evil faces there. We know what's going on there.
And what Bill has to understand, he is the first to speak out against anti-Semitism and all prejudice. But what he has to understand is, as this is translated around the world, in Europe, in the Arab countries, in South America, the number of people who can take material like this and use it for their own purposes, purposes that they may have walked into the movie with, we do not need a film like this. There's enough problems with anti-Semitism around the world.
BEGALA: Bill Donahue, isn't -- wasn't it unseemly for certain right-wingers to try to drag a pope into this? The holy father has done more to advance the cause of Catholic Jewish relations than any pope in history and they tried to make him into a movie reviewer. They invented some quote saying that the holy father praised this.
Isn't it unseemly to try to make our holy father into some kind of a flack for somebody's movie?
DONAHUE: All he said was a few words. "It is as it was." Now, I know what you're going to tell me.
BEGALA: He never said that, Bill.
DONAHUE: Yes, he -- yes, in fact, he did. I'm not going to name the name right now. But let me tell you something right now.
BEGALA: That's not what his personal secretary, the archbishop says. He says, no, the holy father has kept it to himself.
DONAHUE: I'm going to tell you, I know the name of a top ranking official in the Vatican who is a liar. And he's admitted that he's a liar about this.
BEGALA: Are you going to our holy father endorsing sneakers next? He's endorsing films today, sneakers tomorrow?
DONAHUE: He didn't endorse it.
BEGALA: They're trying to debase the papacy with this.
DONAHUE: He didn't endorse it. He said, it is as it was. My God, the sky is not going to fall. Look, when Catholics go to church on Saturday night and Sunday morning, they say that
(BELL RINGING)
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Mr. Donahue, I'm sorry. We're going to have to cut you off there. I would like to know what the pope really said, but we are totally out in time.
In New York, Bill Donahue, thank you very much.
Rabbi Levine, thank you very much. We appreciate it.
BEGALA: Thank you, gentlemen.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Next viewers fire back about "The Passion of Christ."
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
"The Passion of the Christ" opened today, but, apparently, a lot of our viewers have already seen it, judging by our e-mail.
First up -- first up is Tony Cathey from Dayton, Tennessee, writes: "In regard to 'The Passion,' I think that we as Christians have heard the story of Jesus' birth, life and death so often, we take it for granted the impact his death truly had on our lives. This movie will reawaken our spirits and make us truly grateful for the pain he took in our place."
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: A dissenting view from Laleh of Richmond, British Columbia. Laleh writes: "Over the last couple weeks, the Mel Gibson story has received too much attention from the media. It's disturbing to think that all the extra controversy may very well help increase ticket sales and exposure of what otherwise appears to be a violent, hateful, and vague interpretation of the story of Jesus."
I do have to say, there's something unseemly about profiting off of the suffering of Jesus, which Mel Gibson seems intent on doing. He should give the money to the poor, though.
CARLSON: There's nothing hateful or vague about it. That sounds like someone who never saw the movie.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: She should go ahead and watch it.
BEGALA: He shouldn't profit from it, though.
CARLSON: Lisa Murphy from Fort Lauderdale writes: "The parents concerned with the violence in this film, are these the same parents taking their children to see movies like 'Texas Chainsaw Massacre'? What has become of our values?"
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Yes, I mean, I guess there's pointless violence and violence with a point. I think this is in the latter category.
BEGALA: Well, I was proud to see Bill Donahue defend artistic freedom. I will make sure my conservative friends do it the next movie that comes along.
From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" is next. Happy Ash Wednesday. See you tomorrow.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
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