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CNN Crossfire
Democrats' No. 2?
Aired March 08, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: Who's No. 2 on the Democratic ticket?
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: That is totally up to the nominee.
ANNOUNCER: We give John Kerry some help picking a running mate, whether he wants it or not.
SEN. BOB GRAHAM (D), FLORIDA: Bring it on!
ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Today, we are looking for someone to join the ranks of Charles Bryan, Joseph Robinson, and Estes Kefauver. Never heard of them? That's because they were running mates on losing Democratic tickets.
(LAUGHTER)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Well, how about Dick Cheney? He was the running mate on the losing Republican ticket in 2000.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Which Democrat will give John Kerry the best chance of redefeating the Bush/Cheney ticket in 2004? We'll put that question in the CROSSFIRE today.
But, first, let's begin with the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
John is the presumptive Democratic nominee after the most positive primary campaign in memory. Senator John McCain yesterday told ABC's George Stephanopoulos that the coming presidential campaign would be -- quote -- "probably the nastiest campaign we've ever seen" -- unquote. McCain should know. When he ran against George W. Bush, right-wing forces attacked Senator McCain's family life, his patriotism, his wife, even their dark-skinned daughter who was adopted from one of Mother Teresa's orphanages in Bangladesh.
A study from the University of Missouri found that Mr. Bush was almost three times more likely to attack his opponent's character than Al Gore was in 2000. And, already, sadly, kook=right Congressman Tom Cole, a Republican from the state of insanity, has said that voting for a war hero like John Kerry is the equivalent of supporting Hitler or Osama bin Laden. Of course, in his defense, what do we expect Mr. Bush to do, run on peace and prosperity?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: You know, that McCain stuff never goes away. I spent months traveling with him. I wrote a whole chapter in my book about that campaign.
BEGALA: It's a good book.
CARLSON: Thank you.
All that stuff about attacking his daughter, that's all a crock. And I don't think either of us has any problem with a tough campaign. I do think that calling your opponents Benedict Arnolds, traitors to this country, as John Kerry does in speech after speech.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: How about saying that voting for Kerry is like voting for Osama bin Laden?
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: If anybody said that, I think that's appalling. I would never defend that in a million years.
BEGALA: Good for you.
CARLSON: The candidate himself is not saying it. And John Kerry is
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He's allowing others to say it.
CARLSON: Tom Cole? Anyway.
Well, Jean-Bertrand Aristide was last legitimately elected president of Haiti in 1990. That was almost a decade and a half ago. In the years since, he has subverted a second election. He's helped drive his nation deeper into the ground. In public, Aristide has urged mob violence against his opponents. In private, he has simply murdered them. He's gotten rich from corruption and cocaine smuggling. He has done virtually nothing for his country's poor. Aristide is a liar, he's a demagogue, and he's a wildly violently anti-American figure.
Naturally, he's a hero to many congressional Democrats. Since Aristide has resigned his ill-gotten presidency last week and fled to Africa, the White House has come under attack for not supporting him, if you can imagine. This very weekend, John Kerry claimed that, if he'd been president, Aristide would still be in office.
Senator Tom Harkin actually called the deposed dictator a more legitimate national leader than our own George W. Bush. Comments like these are so stupid, they're so mindless, they're almost worth ignoring. Maybe Democrats should bother to learn something about Haiti before weighing in on it.
BEGALA: Well, look, Aristide is not a good guy.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Oh, my gosh. Why do they want to be on his side?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Excuse for talking while you're interrupting, but there is a problem when the United States, in our hemisphere, or anywhere in the world, subverts a democratically elected president. He was democratically elected.
CARLSON: In 1990.
BEGALA: It was in 1900. You make a good point, but, still, he was freely elected.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: George Bush is much more comfortable with the Saudi dictators, who have never been elected ever. He holds hands with Crown Prince Abdullah and sucks up to him.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: The Clinton administration...
BEGALA: This guy actually did win an election...
CARLSON: The Clinton administration denounced that election. Why are you defending Aristide
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: In 1990, I said.
Well, anyway, as a former White House official, I know firsthand that how a president allocates his time says everything about his priorities. President Bush, for example, has time for two multimillion dollar fund-raisers today alone. "Newsweek" reports today that he spent two to three hours recently filming commercials for his political campaign.
And yet, our president who claims he was so affected by 9/11, he can only find one hour to meet with the commission investigating 9/11, one hour. That's not enough to even ask the most basic questions, like, Mr. President, in August 2001, you were briefed on an al Qaeda plot to hijack American airplanes. Why didn't you beef up airport security? Or, Mr. President, just what were you doing in that bunker in Nebraska while Dick Cheney was running the country on 9/11?
Or how about this? Mr. President, don't you even feel a little bit ashamed when you trade on the suffering and sacrifices of the real heroes of 9/11 in your political ads?
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I must say, it takes a lot of brass, A, to peddle conspiracy theories about the president knowing about 9/11 ahead of time, as a major presidential candidate on the Democratic side did.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It's not a conspiracy. He was briefed. His White House has admitted he was briefed on a plot to hijack airplanes.
CARLSON: I understand that, but for...
BEGALA: What did he do after that briefing? He played with his dogs at the ranch.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: For eight years, for eight years, the Clinton administration ignored the threat to America from global terrorism.
BEGALA: No, we handled it.
CARLSON: Really? Then why did the Clinton administration give back the opportunity...
BEGALA: Why did you oppose us when we tried to bomb bin Laden?
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Who, me? What are you talking about?
BEGALA: I'm sorry. I shouldn't say that. You're right. Conservatives did, though.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I don't know who you're talking about. I didn't. I would never be opposed to that.
BEGALA: Many conservatives did. CARLSON: OK.
Well, President Bush met with Mexican President Vicente Fox this weekend in Texas. The topic of conversation was, of course, immigration. Fox would very much like to ease his country's economic problems by sending a large chunk of his population north. And, to that end, he has been haranguing the U.S. government for months about what he calls -- quote -- "the rights of illegal aliens."
Think about that, the rights of people whose very presence in this country is by definition violating U.S. law. Needless to say, Fox made no mention of the rights of the countless American citizens right now languishing in American prisons on bogus, trumped-up charges while they await movement from an impossibly corrupt Mexican judicial system. They have no rights. That's why he never mentions them.
Nevertheless, President Bush has agreed to exempt millions of Mexicans who cross into this country from basic post-9/11 security checks. The administration believes this move will help win Hispanic votes in the coming election, and maybe it will. But will it make America safer? And it's hard to see how that will happen. It's an outrage.
BEGALA: Well, first of all, al Qaeda has never targeted us through Mexico.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Al Qaeda had never flown planes into buildings. I mean, what are you talking about?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: You and both grew up pretty close to Mexico. We both grew up pretty close to Mexico and we know that travel back and forth all day -- there was a proposal to make every single person stop and get fingerprinted, get their eyes scanned.
CARLSON: And get photographed.
BEGALA: It would have shut down all kind of commerce.
CARLSON: No, it actually wouldn't.
BEGALA: It would have been ridiculous.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: And we need to be serious about control. We don't control our own borders, Paul. The threat is real. We have to take it seriously.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: The threat from Mexicans.
CARLSON: No, the threat from non-Mexican nationals in Mexico. It's huge.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Why don't we have it up in Canada? Al Qaeda terrorists have tried to come in through Canada.
CARLSON: Well, maybe we ought to.
BEGALA: Well, if we were not biased in any way, maybe we would.
CARLSON: Biased? What are you talking about?
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, since Senator Kerry has all but wrapped up the Democratic nomination for president, some of the campaign focus has turned in the No. 2 slot on Mr. Kerry's ticket. Will he pick one of the candidates he defeated in the primaries? Or should he go off in a completely different direction? We will debate the veep-stakes next.
And then later, Arnold Schwarzenegger hits the road and picks up a couple more job titles. When is he going to find time to run California?
We'll debate that soon. Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Get ahead of the CROSSFIRE. Sign up for CROSSFIRE's daily "Political Alert" e-mail. You'll get a preview of each day's show, plus an inside look at the day's political headlines. Just go to CNN.com/CROSSFIRE and sign up today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Now that he is all but officially the Democratic Party's nominee for president, John Kerry faces a vitally important decision. That, of course, would be choosing a running mate. A new CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll shows John Edwards is the overwhelming choice of the people. But what do they know? And do Democrats care what they think? Of course not.
So, instead, let's turn to a couple of experts. In the CROSSFIRE, Democratic strategist Peter Fenn and Republican consult Cheri Jacobus.
Welcome.
BEGALA: Good to see both of you.
CHERI JACOBUS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Thank you. Good to be here.
BEGALA: This is a fun topic, because we will have absolutely no effect on what John Kerry does, but it's fun.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Let's start with John Edwards. This is a guy who is really terrific on the stump. He's from the South. I think he speaks to middle America. What would be the Republican problem with John Edwards on the ticket?
JACOBUS: Well, I don't know if it's a Republican problem, Paul. I think the problem might be with the Democrats. We still have a long way to go. A lot can happen.
He's in the spotlight now. But what happens to John Edwards over the course of the months? What's he going to do to stand out? The problem for John Kerry, too, is, he has such a dour, sour kind of personality, you guys might want somebody on the ticket to pick it up a little bit, in which case John Edwards might be good.
On the other hand, it might be such a contrast that it makes John Kerry look even worse. So I think it's a double-edged sword for you.
BEGALA: Well, now Bush-Cheney -- I mean Mr. Cheney, Vice President Cheney, he's not dour or sour, is he?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: You know, here's the other thing.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He's a lovely man, but some people are a bit more serious.
(APPLAUSE)
JACOBUS: You know what you've got? You know, another problem, now that you mention Dick Cheney, that the Democrats are going to have is, when you remember back to 2000, the debates between Joe Lieberman and Cheney, they were so good and so informative. Both gentlemen were very good. Cheney was a little bit better.
Who do the Democrats have? Who has the gravitas to stand up to Cheney in a debate situation?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I've got the answer to that question.
(APPLAUSE)
PETER FENN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Forty-nine senators, 20 governors.
(CROSSTALK) CARLSON: That is a marvelous question. How about a former president, Peter? Stephen Gillers, who is a law professor at New York University -- don't dismiss this -- this is a deep question.
"New York Times" op-ed the other day -- and I won't explain it all, but basically making the point it is constitutional for the former president, Bill Clinton, to be chosen as Kerry's V.P. Why not? You've made the point many times Bill Clinton is probably the greatest president, probably the person in American or world history.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Why not make him the vice presidential nominee?
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: I have to tell you, when I got that "New York Times" at home over my coffee and opened it, I thought I had an April fool's joke in front of me. I thought, oh, who spent 500 words talking about a vice presidential nomination?
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: But the president is just fine. He's done eight years. He's done his thing.
CARLSON: But doesn't your party need him?
FENN: He's finishing his book. He's -- look, the party has plenty of great folks, John Edwards being prime among them, Dick Gephardt, Bob Graham. The whole point here is, we've got a whole host of folks.
CARLSON: Oh, because he's embarrassing?
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: No, let me tell you the interesting poll that I loved last week, CBS. When they did just Bush and Kerry, Kerry won by one point. When they put the ticket together with Edwards on the ticket, they won by eight points. Now, what does that tell you about what people think of Cheney vs. someone like Edwards?
JACOBUS: It tells you nothing, because we don't know what it's going to look like in a few months from now, Peter.
FENN: Well, I agree with that.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: We have a long way to go.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: These numbers are going to up and down. This thing hasn't even started yet. BEGALA: You've said this twice, Cheri.
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: I'm really happy to have -- I'm happy to have a vice president on this ticket, any one of the above.
BEGALA: Twice, Cheri, you have said, we don't know what's going to happen. Well, yes, we do. We just had a foreshadowing of it with some idiot congressman saying, if you vote for John Kerry, it's like voting for bin Laden.
You're talking about a right-wing sleaze machine that's going to go after the ticket. So I suggest maybe putting Dick Gephardt on...
JACOBUS: Paul...
BEGALA: ... who even his most vicious critic has to say he's an Eagle Scout. He's the most honorable person I have ever known in 20 years in politics. You're not going to sleaze and smear Dick Gephardt, are you?
JACOBUS: First of all, there's no right-swing smear campaign going on.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Oh, no? No?
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: How about this clown saying that voting for Kerry is voting for bin Laden? You don't endorse that, do you, Cheri?
JACOBUS: You know what? No, I don't.
BEGALA: Good for you.
JACOBUS: And I think he is a clown. And that's not part of the Bush-Cheney campaign.
BEGALA: He's a congressman.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: You got plenty of idiots on your side.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, a few. No, most of them have become switched parties by now.
JACOBUS: You going to embrace them?
BEGALA: Most of them have become Republicans.
JACOBUS: Here's the problem with Dick Gephardt. Now, he does have a long service in Congress, and that's -- you know, we certainly all respect that. But I think the problem the Democrats are going to have is, you have very few people, if any, that can deliver more than one state. And it could come down to, in a tight election, certainly, one state makes the difference. But you need to have more.
You need to be able to deliver more than your home state.
FENN: Cheri...
JACOBUS: And I just don't think that Dick Gephardt can do more for your ticket than that.
FENN: First of all, I think a lot of these candidates can do a lot. But the most important thing about this is, A, you've got someone who can step into the presidency, which any of them can.
JACOBUS: That's very important, certainly, the most important.
FENN: And, secondly -- and, secondly, look the fact is that the ticket now is going to get stronger, whoever is on it. And that's -- you know, the Democrats are in good shape.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, Peter, why not make it
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: And we're going to do it quickly.
CARLSON: Why not...
FENN: We're not probably going to wait until July.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, then, why not -- why not do the following thing now? Why not make it as strong as it can be? You just said that former President Clinton is too embarrassing to be the choice.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: How about his wife?
FENN: Is that what I said?
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Yes, you did. BEGALA: What's he embarrassed about, 23 million jobs, a balanced budget, the lowest crime rate in a generation?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You answer...
BEGALA: He's the greatest president in my lifetime. That's what you're embarrassed about.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You can answer that question.
JACOBUS: Pardons on the last day
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: This is what Mrs. Clinton said when asked, would you accept the job as vice president for John Kerry? There she is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: That is totally up to the nominee. And I don't think I would ever be offered. I don't think I would accept. Obviously, I want to do everything I can to see John Kerry elected president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: Now, that's totally fascinating. A, why wouldn't...
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Hold on. Why wouldn't she be offered, if she's as brilliant and popular as you say? B, why wouldn't she accept if she's as loyal to the Democratic Party as you claim? She's the obvious choice. Why not pick her?
FENN: She's not the obvious choice at all.
CARLSON: Why? Tell me why.
FENN: Because she just got elected to the Senate. She's the wife of a former president.
CARLSON: So did John Edwards. He just got elected to the Senate.
FENN: Wait a minute. She's proving herself in the Senate. She has sponsored legislation, 35 Republicans who voted for her husband's...
CARLSON: She's not experienced to be V.P.?
FENN: ... impeachment. Great legislation. She's doing a terrific job. She knows -- to be blunt, she knows right now she would be a lightning rod. She know her negatives are still too high. They're going to down, though, very fast.
CARLSON: Peter, you're telling the truth. Stop. You're scaring me. You're scaring me. (CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: She's too unpopular to be the V.P., isn't she? You said it, not me.
FENN: Too controversial. Too much a lightning rod. Listen, this is a woman who may be president of the United States.
CARLSON: Thank you, Peter. I'm so glad you said that.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: ... came out of his mouth and not mine, because that's exactly what I would say.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: Can I say one thing about Hillary Clinton, though? Hillary Clinton -- here's why you guys are -- you say you're going to pick somebody early. I don't think you will, because Hillary Clinton wants to keep the pressure on, so she can be the last -- come in at the last minute, if it looks like Kerry might be
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: The conspiracy, the conspiracy.
(LAUGHTER)
JACOBUS: Because the only way -- if Kerry is going to win the presidency, which I don't think he will, but if she thinks he will, she wants on that ticket, because, otherwise, there's no way she can get on ever, because she can't run in four years.
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: The right wing loves this. The right wing loves this.
BEGALA: You base this on your many years of working for Hillary.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: You have no idea what you're talking about.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: Everybody in this country knows who Hillary Clinton is.
(APPLAUSE) BEGALA: Let me suggest another name, another woman, Janet Napolitano. She's the governor of Arizona, a key swing state, a tough prosecutor, a successful governor from the state of Barry Goldwater and John McCain. That would be an inspired choice for the Democrats, wouldn't it?
JACOBUS: If she can deliver more than just her home state. It's what I said before. I think -- and I'm not in a position of giving advice to...
BEGALA: Dick Cheney didn't deliver nothing but the mail. He didn't carry Wyoming.
(LAUGHTER)
JACOBUS: But you know what? This is the difference.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Who cares about Wyoming? It's three votes.
JACOBUS: Because Dick Cheney has so much more to offer in terms of gravitas and experience and credibility. You guys don't have that.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Oh.
JACOBUS: So the only way you can catch up -- the only way you can catch up is to have a Democrat
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Which would you rather have, somebody who gained his gravitas among people at Halliburton or, say, prosecuting criminals?
FENN: Exactly.
BEGALA: I don't know.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'd rather have somebody who prosecuted criminals than somebody who hung out with them.
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: Manipulating -- manipulating intelligence data, going to the -- going to the people, talking about how they're going to be cheering in the streets when we go into Iraq.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm so glad you brought up -- I'm so glad you brought up intelligence, because a member of the Intelligence Committee is under consideration, as you know, for this job. And that, of course, would be Bob Graham of Florida. Everyone says, he'd be great. He's the most serious guy coming.
What they never say is, there's some eccentricity there. I want to put up on the screen an exact excerpt Senator Graham's diaries. This is from September 1994. At 12:05, he went to the bathroom and changed into red shorts. At 12:20, he watched "Ace Ventura Pet Detective." He also ate a tuna salad sandwich.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: At 1:20, he went back to the bathroom and put on blue sacks. At 1:30 to 1:45, he rewound "Ace Ventura."
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Can he -- it took him 15 minutes to rewind the video, Peter.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Could this guy really be chosen as a vice presidential nominee, honestly?
FENN: Listen, Thomas Jefferson kept diaries, too. Listen, this guy is a very accomplished senator, was a governor before. He is an expert on intelligence, unlike some of the other people in this administration. And he'd be a strong candidate. Plus, you guys are terrified of Bob Graham, because if he
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm a little scared of him, honestly, after I saw that.
FENN: If Florida goes for Bob Graham, you guys are toast. So...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Why don't we get Cheney's diaries? Met with Enron at noon, Exxon at 1:00, Halliburton at 2:00.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Rewound the environmental laws at 3:00.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: OK. Unfortunately, we've got to rewind "Ace Ventura" ourselves and go to a commercial break.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Next, in "Rapid Fire," we'll see what your guests have to say about some of the more surprising names being floated for that job of vice presidential nominee. Would you believe a network news anchorman?
And, right after the break, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on what's next for Martha Stewart and her business empire now that the jury has spoken. Nothing good, you can guess that.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Coming up at the top of the hour, John Kerry says some world leaders tell him they want President Bush out of the White House. We'll have details on that and reaction from the Bush-Cheney campaign.
A meeting with the probation officer and some bad news about her business, another difficult day for Martha Stewart. Plus, a look at what prison life might be look for Stewart.
Rudy Giuliani's take, the campaign, the war on terror and much more. I'll speak live with the former mayor of New York, Rudy Giuliani.
Those stories, much more only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" -- now back to CROSSFIRE.
BEGALA: Thank you, Wolf. Look forward to your report at the top of the hour.
Welcome back here to CROSSFIRE.
There are so many Democrats so fully qualified to be John Kerry's running mate and America's vice president that the only way to consider them all -- and we won't even get them all in -- is in our "Rapid Fire" section. Our guests are Republican consultant Cheri Jacobus and Democratic strategist Peter Fenn.
CARLSON: Peter, the Democratic Party spends a lot of time yammering on about diversity and attacking other people as racists, and yet there's no serious black candidate being considered. The only one, Al Sharpton, you're not even going to consider him, are you?
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: That's your candidate, Al Sharpton.
CARLSON: He's a Democrat. He's still running. Why won't John Kerry pick him?
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: I don't know. Why won't he pick him?
CARLSON: He should pick him.
FENN: Look, there's a long list. It's a very long list if you read the papers. But I think, realistically, they've got it probably down to six or eight candidates.
BEGALA: How about Bob Kerrey, Medal of Honor winner, former senator from Nebraska? JACOBUS: I don't think he'll do it.
BEGALA: But would he be good?
JACOBUS: No, because I think there's probably too many issues that he and Kerry disagree on. Here's the thing.
Kerry's main problem is that he's got these big, huge votes, a bill he introduced in '95 to cut $1.5 billion out of the intelligence budget. He needs someone that has to soften that image, because that's pretty extreme. Not one Republican, not one Democrat supported him at that point. The bill never went anywhere because it was that unreasonable. So he needs somebody
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Peter, fascinating piece in "The Wall Street Journal" today by John Fund suggesting that Democrats are talking about Tom Brokaw as a potential V.P. candidate.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No, that's my question. Have you heard that?
FENN: No, not at all.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: That's silly.
FENN: I think -- John Fund, maybe he was on vacation.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: OK, so you don't think that's a real...
FENN: I love John, but that's out of control. No.
BEGALA: I talk to Democrats all day, every day, and this is the first I've heard it, from some right-wing crackpot.
How about John McCain, though, a Republican? Votes with the Democrats a whole lot more than most any other Republican. How about John McCain?
JACOBUS: You just said John McCain, a Republican, John McCain, a Republican, is not going to go on a Democratic ticket.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Why not? He hates Bush more than anybody alive.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: He doesn't hate Bush.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Oh, my gosh.
JACOBUS: Oh, my goodness.
BEGALA: Oh, what they did to him? Oh, please.
(APPLAUSE)
FENN: He even criticized Bush's ads. He criticized the use of 9/11 in Bush's ads.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Wait a second. Why are we all looking at the obvious choice? The person who has more fervent support than anybody, including John Kerry? And that's obviously Howard Dean. Why not pick Howard Dean?
FENN: Well, he's coming down to talk to John Kerry and they'll have a discussion
CARLSON: Do you think he should? He's the obvious, isn't
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: He probably won't. No, I don't think so.
CARLSON: Oh, what a missed opportunity.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Peter.
FENN: Don't think so.
CARLSON: He'd be marvelous.
FENN: He's not my guy. You know he's never been my guy.
CARLSON: Too bad.
BEGALA: Peter Fenn for the Democrats, Cheri Jacobus for the Republicans, thank you very much.
FENN: Thanks.
BEGALA: This will not be the last time we talk about veep- stakes, but it was certainly the best. Thank you very much.
Well, the strongman of Sacramento has added a few more titles to his plate. Next, an update on the busy life of Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Apparently, running the state of California, which has the sixth or seventh largest economy in the whole world, is just not enough heavy-lifting for Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. Over the weekend, Mr. Schwarzenegger was in Columbus, Ohio, along with some 80,000 fans and 600 exhibitors for the annual Arnold Fitness Weekend.
While he was there, it was announced that Governor Schwarzenegger will become -- get this -- the executive editor of not one, but two body building magazines, "Muscle & Fitness" and "Flex." It's sad, Tucker. He can't decide -- very promising beginning, but he can't decide if he wants to be like Ronald Reagan and be serious about politics or like Jesse Ventura and be a dilettante. And I think he's got the capacity to actually be a terrific success in politics.
CARLSON: I do think, though, that "Flex," embarrassing as it is, better than "Penthouse."
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: No, it is. I don't know. What do you expect? He's an actor. He's governor. I don't know. I'm not surprised.
BEGALA: He was terrific on "Meet the Press" last week, but he ought to stick to politics.
From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us again tomorrow for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now. Have a great night.
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Aired March 8, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: Who's No. 2 on the Democratic ticket?
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: That is totally up to the nominee.
ANNOUNCER: We give John Kerry some help picking a running mate, whether he wants it or not.
SEN. BOB GRAHAM (D), FLORIDA: Bring it on!
ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Today, we are looking for someone to join the ranks of Charles Bryan, Joseph Robinson, and Estes Kefauver. Never heard of them? That's because they were running mates on losing Democratic tickets.
(LAUGHTER)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Well, how about Dick Cheney? He was the running mate on the losing Republican ticket in 2000.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Which Democrat will give John Kerry the best chance of redefeating the Bush/Cheney ticket in 2004? We'll put that question in the CROSSFIRE today.
But, first, let's begin with the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
John is the presumptive Democratic nominee after the most positive primary campaign in memory. Senator John McCain yesterday told ABC's George Stephanopoulos that the coming presidential campaign would be -- quote -- "probably the nastiest campaign we've ever seen" -- unquote. McCain should know. When he ran against George W. Bush, right-wing forces attacked Senator McCain's family life, his patriotism, his wife, even their dark-skinned daughter who was adopted from one of Mother Teresa's orphanages in Bangladesh.
A study from the University of Missouri found that Mr. Bush was almost three times more likely to attack his opponent's character than Al Gore was in 2000. And, already, sadly, kook=right Congressman Tom Cole, a Republican from the state of insanity, has said that voting for a war hero like John Kerry is the equivalent of supporting Hitler or Osama bin Laden. Of course, in his defense, what do we expect Mr. Bush to do, run on peace and prosperity?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: You know, that McCain stuff never goes away. I spent months traveling with him. I wrote a whole chapter in my book about that campaign.
BEGALA: It's a good book.
CARLSON: Thank you.
All that stuff about attacking his daughter, that's all a crock. And I don't think either of us has any problem with a tough campaign. I do think that calling your opponents Benedict Arnolds, traitors to this country, as John Kerry does in speech after speech.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: How about saying that voting for Kerry is like voting for Osama bin Laden?
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: If anybody said that, I think that's appalling. I would never defend that in a million years.
BEGALA: Good for you.
CARLSON: The candidate himself is not saying it. And John Kerry is
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He's allowing others to say it.
CARLSON: Tom Cole? Anyway.
Well, Jean-Bertrand Aristide was last legitimately elected president of Haiti in 1990. That was almost a decade and a half ago. In the years since, he has subverted a second election. He's helped drive his nation deeper into the ground. In public, Aristide has urged mob violence against his opponents. In private, he has simply murdered them. He's gotten rich from corruption and cocaine smuggling. He has done virtually nothing for his country's poor. Aristide is a liar, he's a demagogue, and he's a wildly violently anti-American figure.
Naturally, he's a hero to many congressional Democrats. Since Aristide has resigned his ill-gotten presidency last week and fled to Africa, the White House has come under attack for not supporting him, if you can imagine. This very weekend, John Kerry claimed that, if he'd been president, Aristide would still be in office.
Senator Tom Harkin actually called the deposed dictator a more legitimate national leader than our own George W. Bush. Comments like these are so stupid, they're so mindless, they're almost worth ignoring. Maybe Democrats should bother to learn something about Haiti before weighing in on it.
BEGALA: Well, look, Aristide is not a good guy.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Oh, my gosh. Why do they want to be on his side?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Excuse for talking while you're interrupting, but there is a problem when the United States, in our hemisphere, or anywhere in the world, subverts a democratically elected president. He was democratically elected.
CARLSON: In 1990.
BEGALA: It was in 1900. You make a good point, but, still, he was freely elected.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: George Bush is much more comfortable with the Saudi dictators, who have never been elected ever. He holds hands with Crown Prince Abdullah and sucks up to him.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: The Clinton administration...
BEGALA: This guy actually did win an election...
CARLSON: The Clinton administration denounced that election. Why are you defending Aristide
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: In 1990, I said.
Well, anyway, as a former White House official, I know firsthand that how a president allocates his time says everything about his priorities. President Bush, for example, has time for two multimillion dollar fund-raisers today alone. "Newsweek" reports today that he spent two to three hours recently filming commercials for his political campaign.
And yet, our president who claims he was so affected by 9/11, he can only find one hour to meet with the commission investigating 9/11, one hour. That's not enough to even ask the most basic questions, like, Mr. President, in August 2001, you were briefed on an al Qaeda plot to hijack American airplanes. Why didn't you beef up airport security? Or, Mr. President, just what were you doing in that bunker in Nebraska while Dick Cheney was running the country on 9/11?
Or how about this? Mr. President, don't you even feel a little bit ashamed when you trade on the suffering and sacrifices of the real heroes of 9/11 in your political ads?
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I must say, it takes a lot of brass, A, to peddle conspiracy theories about the president knowing about 9/11 ahead of time, as a major presidential candidate on the Democratic side did.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It's not a conspiracy. He was briefed. His White House has admitted he was briefed on a plot to hijack airplanes.
CARLSON: I understand that, but for...
BEGALA: What did he do after that briefing? He played with his dogs at the ranch.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: For eight years, for eight years, the Clinton administration ignored the threat to America from global terrorism.
BEGALA: No, we handled it.
CARLSON: Really? Then why did the Clinton administration give back the opportunity...
BEGALA: Why did you oppose us when we tried to bomb bin Laden?
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Who, me? What are you talking about?
BEGALA: I'm sorry. I shouldn't say that. You're right. Conservatives did, though.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I don't know who you're talking about. I didn't. I would never be opposed to that.
BEGALA: Many conservatives did. CARLSON: OK.
Well, President Bush met with Mexican President Vicente Fox this weekend in Texas. The topic of conversation was, of course, immigration. Fox would very much like to ease his country's economic problems by sending a large chunk of his population north. And, to that end, he has been haranguing the U.S. government for months about what he calls -- quote -- "the rights of illegal aliens."
Think about that, the rights of people whose very presence in this country is by definition violating U.S. law. Needless to say, Fox made no mention of the rights of the countless American citizens right now languishing in American prisons on bogus, trumped-up charges while they await movement from an impossibly corrupt Mexican judicial system. They have no rights. That's why he never mentions them.
Nevertheless, President Bush has agreed to exempt millions of Mexicans who cross into this country from basic post-9/11 security checks. The administration believes this move will help win Hispanic votes in the coming election, and maybe it will. But will it make America safer? And it's hard to see how that will happen. It's an outrage.
BEGALA: Well, first of all, al Qaeda has never targeted us through Mexico.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Al Qaeda had never flown planes into buildings. I mean, what are you talking about?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: You and both grew up pretty close to Mexico. We both grew up pretty close to Mexico and we know that travel back and forth all day -- there was a proposal to make every single person stop and get fingerprinted, get their eyes scanned.
CARLSON: And get photographed.
BEGALA: It would have shut down all kind of commerce.
CARLSON: No, it actually wouldn't.
BEGALA: It would have been ridiculous.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: And we need to be serious about control. We don't control our own borders, Paul. The threat is real. We have to take it seriously.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: The threat from Mexicans.
CARLSON: No, the threat from non-Mexican nationals in Mexico. It's huge.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Why don't we have it up in Canada? Al Qaeda terrorists have tried to come in through Canada.
CARLSON: Well, maybe we ought to.
BEGALA: Well, if we were not biased in any way, maybe we would.
CARLSON: Biased? What are you talking about?
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, since Senator Kerry has all but wrapped up the Democratic nomination for president, some of the campaign focus has turned in the No. 2 slot on Mr. Kerry's ticket. Will he pick one of the candidates he defeated in the primaries? Or should he go off in a completely different direction? We will debate the veep-stakes next.
And then later, Arnold Schwarzenegger hits the road and picks up a couple more job titles. When is he going to find time to run California?
We'll debate that soon. Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Get ahead of the CROSSFIRE. Sign up for CROSSFIRE's daily "Political Alert" e-mail. You'll get a preview of each day's show, plus an inside look at the day's political headlines. Just go to CNN.com/CROSSFIRE and sign up today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Now that he is all but officially the Democratic Party's nominee for president, John Kerry faces a vitally important decision. That, of course, would be choosing a running mate. A new CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll shows John Edwards is the overwhelming choice of the people. But what do they know? And do Democrats care what they think? Of course not.
So, instead, let's turn to a couple of experts. In the CROSSFIRE, Democratic strategist Peter Fenn and Republican consult Cheri Jacobus.
Welcome.
BEGALA: Good to see both of you.
CHERI JACOBUS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Thank you. Good to be here.
BEGALA: This is a fun topic, because we will have absolutely no effect on what John Kerry does, but it's fun.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Let's start with John Edwards. This is a guy who is really terrific on the stump. He's from the South. I think he speaks to middle America. What would be the Republican problem with John Edwards on the ticket?
JACOBUS: Well, I don't know if it's a Republican problem, Paul. I think the problem might be with the Democrats. We still have a long way to go. A lot can happen.
He's in the spotlight now. But what happens to John Edwards over the course of the months? What's he going to do to stand out? The problem for John Kerry, too, is, he has such a dour, sour kind of personality, you guys might want somebody on the ticket to pick it up a little bit, in which case John Edwards might be good.
On the other hand, it might be such a contrast that it makes John Kerry look even worse. So I think it's a double-edged sword for you.
BEGALA: Well, now Bush-Cheney -- I mean Mr. Cheney, Vice President Cheney, he's not dour or sour, is he?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: You know, here's the other thing.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He's a lovely man, but some people are a bit more serious.
(APPLAUSE)
JACOBUS: You know what you've got? You know, another problem, now that you mention Dick Cheney, that the Democrats are going to have is, when you remember back to 2000, the debates between Joe Lieberman and Cheney, they were so good and so informative. Both gentlemen were very good. Cheney was a little bit better.
Who do the Democrats have? Who has the gravitas to stand up to Cheney in a debate situation?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I've got the answer to that question.
(APPLAUSE)
PETER FENN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Forty-nine senators, 20 governors.
(CROSSTALK) CARLSON: That is a marvelous question. How about a former president, Peter? Stephen Gillers, who is a law professor at New York University -- don't dismiss this -- this is a deep question.
"New York Times" op-ed the other day -- and I won't explain it all, but basically making the point it is constitutional for the former president, Bill Clinton, to be chosen as Kerry's V.P. Why not? You've made the point many times Bill Clinton is probably the greatest president, probably the person in American or world history.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Why not make him the vice presidential nominee?
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: I have to tell you, when I got that "New York Times" at home over my coffee and opened it, I thought I had an April fool's joke in front of me. I thought, oh, who spent 500 words talking about a vice presidential nomination?
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: But the president is just fine. He's done eight years. He's done his thing.
CARLSON: But doesn't your party need him?
FENN: He's finishing his book. He's -- look, the party has plenty of great folks, John Edwards being prime among them, Dick Gephardt, Bob Graham. The whole point here is, we've got a whole host of folks.
CARLSON: Oh, because he's embarrassing?
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: No, let me tell you the interesting poll that I loved last week, CBS. When they did just Bush and Kerry, Kerry won by one point. When they put the ticket together with Edwards on the ticket, they won by eight points. Now, what does that tell you about what people think of Cheney vs. someone like Edwards?
JACOBUS: It tells you nothing, because we don't know what it's going to look like in a few months from now, Peter.
FENN: Well, I agree with that.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: We have a long way to go.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: These numbers are going to up and down. This thing hasn't even started yet. BEGALA: You've said this twice, Cheri.
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: I'm really happy to have -- I'm happy to have a vice president on this ticket, any one of the above.
BEGALA: Twice, Cheri, you have said, we don't know what's going to happen. Well, yes, we do. We just had a foreshadowing of it with some idiot congressman saying, if you vote for John Kerry, it's like voting for bin Laden.
You're talking about a right-wing sleaze machine that's going to go after the ticket. So I suggest maybe putting Dick Gephardt on...
JACOBUS: Paul...
BEGALA: ... who even his most vicious critic has to say he's an Eagle Scout. He's the most honorable person I have ever known in 20 years in politics. You're not going to sleaze and smear Dick Gephardt, are you?
JACOBUS: First of all, there's no right-swing smear campaign going on.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Oh, no? No?
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: How about this clown saying that voting for Kerry is voting for bin Laden? You don't endorse that, do you, Cheri?
JACOBUS: You know what? No, I don't.
BEGALA: Good for you.
JACOBUS: And I think he is a clown. And that's not part of the Bush-Cheney campaign.
BEGALA: He's a congressman.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: You got plenty of idiots on your side.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, a few. No, most of them have become switched parties by now.
JACOBUS: You going to embrace them?
BEGALA: Most of them have become Republicans.
JACOBUS: Here's the problem with Dick Gephardt. Now, he does have a long service in Congress, and that's -- you know, we certainly all respect that. But I think the problem the Democrats are going to have is, you have very few people, if any, that can deliver more than one state. And it could come down to, in a tight election, certainly, one state makes the difference. But you need to have more.
You need to be able to deliver more than your home state.
FENN: Cheri...
JACOBUS: And I just don't think that Dick Gephardt can do more for your ticket than that.
FENN: First of all, I think a lot of these candidates can do a lot. But the most important thing about this is, A, you've got someone who can step into the presidency, which any of them can.
JACOBUS: That's very important, certainly, the most important.
FENN: And, secondly -- and, secondly, look the fact is that the ticket now is going to get stronger, whoever is on it. And that's -- you know, the Democrats are in good shape.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, Peter, why not make it
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: And we're going to do it quickly.
CARLSON: Why not...
FENN: We're not probably going to wait until July.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, then, why not -- why not do the following thing now? Why not make it as strong as it can be? You just said that former President Clinton is too embarrassing to be the choice.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: How about his wife?
FENN: Is that what I said?
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Yes, you did. BEGALA: What's he embarrassed about, 23 million jobs, a balanced budget, the lowest crime rate in a generation?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You answer...
BEGALA: He's the greatest president in my lifetime. That's what you're embarrassed about.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You can answer that question.
JACOBUS: Pardons on the last day
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: This is what Mrs. Clinton said when asked, would you accept the job as vice president for John Kerry? There she is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: That is totally up to the nominee. And I don't think I would ever be offered. I don't think I would accept. Obviously, I want to do everything I can to see John Kerry elected president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: Now, that's totally fascinating. A, why wouldn't...
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Hold on. Why wouldn't she be offered, if she's as brilliant and popular as you say? B, why wouldn't she accept if she's as loyal to the Democratic Party as you claim? She's the obvious choice. Why not pick her?
FENN: She's not the obvious choice at all.
CARLSON: Why? Tell me why.
FENN: Because she just got elected to the Senate. She's the wife of a former president.
CARLSON: So did John Edwards. He just got elected to the Senate.
FENN: Wait a minute. She's proving herself in the Senate. She has sponsored legislation, 35 Republicans who voted for her husband's...
CARLSON: She's not experienced to be V.P.?
FENN: ... impeachment. Great legislation. She's doing a terrific job. She knows -- to be blunt, she knows right now she would be a lightning rod. She know her negatives are still too high. They're going to down, though, very fast.
CARLSON: Peter, you're telling the truth. Stop. You're scaring me. You're scaring me. (CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: She's too unpopular to be the V.P., isn't she? You said it, not me.
FENN: Too controversial. Too much a lightning rod. Listen, this is a woman who may be president of the United States.
CARLSON: Thank you, Peter. I'm so glad you said that.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: ... came out of his mouth and not mine, because that's exactly what I would say.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: Can I say one thing about Hillary Clinton, though? Hillary Clinton -- here's why you guys are -- you say you're going to pick somebody early. I don't think you will, because Hillary Clinton wants to keep the pressure on, so she can be the last -- come in at the last minute, if it looks like Kerry might be
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: The conspiracy, the conspiracy.
(LAUGHTER)
JACOBUS: Because the only way -- if Kerry is going to win the presidency, which I don't think he will, but if she thinks he will, she wants on that ticket, because, otherwise, there's no way she can get on ever, because she can't run in four years.
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: The right wing loves this. The right wing loves this.
BEGALA: You base this on your many years of working for Hillary.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: You have no idea what you're talking about.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: Everybody in this country knows who Hillary Clinton is.
(APPLAUSE) BEGALA: Let me suggest another name, another woman, Janet Napolitano. She's the governor of Arizona, a key swing state, a tough prosecutor, a successful governor from the state of Barry Goldwater and John McCain. That would be an inspired choice for the Democrats, wouldn't it?
JACOBUS: If she can deliver more than just her home state. It's what I said before. I think -- and I'm not in a position of giving advice to...
BEGALA: Dick Cheney didn't deliver nothing but the mail. He didn't carry Wyoming.
(LAUGHTER)
JACOBUS: But you know what? This is the difference.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Who cares about Wyoming? It's three votes.
JACOBUS: Because Dick Cheney has so much more to offer in terms of gravitas and experience and credibility. You guys don't have that.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Oh.
JACOBUS: So the only way you can catch up -- the only way you can catch up is to have a Democrat
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Which would you rather have, somebody who gained his gravitas among people at Halliburton or, say, prosecuting criminals?
FENN: Exactly.
BEGALA: I don't know.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'd rather have somebody who prosecuted criminals than somebody who hung out with them.
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: Manipulating -- manipulating intelligence data, going to the -- going to the people, talking about how they're going to be cheering in the streets when we go into Iraq.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm so glad you brought up -- I'm so glad you brought up intelligence, because a member of the Intelligence Committee is under consideration, as you know, for this job. And that, of course, would be Bob Graham of Florida. Everyone says, he'd be great. He's the most serious guy coming.
What they never say is, there's some eccentricity there. I want to put up on the screen an exact excerpt Senator Graham's diaries. This is from September 1994. At 12:05, he went to the bathroom and changed into red shorts. At 12:20, he watched "Ace Ventura Pet Detective." He also ate a tuna salad sandwich.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: At 1:20, he went back to the bathroom and put on blue sacks. At 1:30 to 1:45, he rewound "Ace Ventura."
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Can he -- it took him 15 minutes to rewind the video, Peter.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Could this guy really be chosen as a vice presidential nominee, honestly?
FENN: Listen, Thomas Jefferson kept diaries, too. Listen, this guy is a very accomplished senator, was a governor before. He is an expert on intelligence, unlike some of the other people in this administration. And he'd be a strong candidate. Plus, you guys are terrified of Bob Graham, because if he
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm a little scared of him, honestly, after I saw that.
FENN: If Florida goes for Bob Graham, you guys are toast. So...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Why don't we get Cheney's diaries? Met with Enron at noon, Exxon at 1:00, Halliburton at 2:00.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Rewound the environmental laws at 3:00.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: OK. Unfortunately, we've got to rewind "Ace Ventura" ourselves and go to a commercial break.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Next, in "Rapid Fire," we'll see what your guests have to say about some of the more surprising names being floated for that job of vice presidential nominee. Would you believe a network news anchorman?
And, right after the break, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on what's next for Martha Stewart and her business empire now that the jury has spoken. Nothing good, you can guess that.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Coming up at the top of the hour, John Kerry says some world leaders tell him they want President Bush out of the White House. We'll have details on that and reaction from the Bush-Cheney campaign.
A meeting with the probation officer and some bad news about her business, another difficult day for Martha Stewart. Plus, a look at what prison life might be look for Stewart.
Rudy Giuliani's take, the campaign, the war on terror and much more. I'll speak live with the former mayor of New York, Rudy Giuliani.
Those stories, much more only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" -- now back to CROSSFIRE.
BEGALA: Thank you, Wolf. Look forward to your report at the top of the hour.
Welcome back here to CROSSFIRE.
There are so many Democrats so fully qualified to be John Kerry's running mate and America's vice president that the only way to consider them all -- and we won't even get them all in -- is in our "Rapid Fire" section. Our guests are Republican consultant Cheri Jacobus and Democratic strategist Peter Fenn.
CARLSON: Peter, the Democratic Party spends a lot of time yammering on about diversity and attacking other people as racists, and yet there's no serious black candidate being considered. The only one, Al Sharpton, you're not even going to consider him, are you?
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: That's your candidate, Al Sharpton.
CARLSON: He's a Democrat. He's still running. Why won't John Kerry pick him?
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: I don't know. Why won't he pick him?
CARLSON: He should pick him.
FENN: Look, there's a long list. It's a very long list if you read the papers. But I think, realistically, they've got it probably down to six or eight candidates.
BEGALA: How about Bob Kerrey, Medal of Honor winner, former senator from Nebraska? JACOBUS: I don't think he'll do it.
BEGALA: But would he be good?
JACOBUS: No, because I think there's probably too many issues that he and Kerry disagree on. Here's the thing.
Kerry's main problem is that he's got these big, huge votes, a bill he introduced in '95 to cut $1.5 billion out of the intelligence budget. He needs someone that has to soften that image, because that's pretty extreme. Not one Republican, not one Democrat supported him at that point. The bill never went anywhere because it was that unreasonable. So he needs somebody
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Peter, fascinating piece in "The Wall Street Journal" today by John Fund suggesting that Democrats are talking about Tom Brokaw as a potential V.P. candidate.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No, that's my question. Have you heard that?
FENN: No, not at all.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: That's silly.
FENN: I think -- John Fund, maybe he was on vacation.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: OK, so you don't think that's a real...
FENN: I love John, but that's out of control. No.
BEGALA: I talk to Democrats all day, every day, and this is the first I've heard it, from some right-wing crackpot.
How about John McCain, though, a Republican? Votes with the Democrats a whole lot more than most any other Republican. How about John McCain?
JACOBUS: You just said John McCain, a Republican, John McCain, a Republican, is not going to go on a Democratic ticket.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Why not? He hates Bush more than anybody alive.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: He doesn't hate Bush.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Oh, my gosh.
JACOBUS: Oh, my goodness.
BEGALA: Oh, what they did to him? Oh, please.
(APPLAUSE)
FENN: He even criticized Bush's ads. He criticized the use of 9/11 in Bush's ads.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Wait a second. Why are we all looking at the obvious choice? The person who has more fervent support than anybody, including John Kerry? And that's obviously Howard Dean. Why not pick Howard Dean?
FENN: Well, he's coming down to talk to John Kerry and they'll have a discussion
CARLSON: Do you think he should? He's the obvious, isn't
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: He probably won't. No, I don't think so.
CARLSON: Oh, what a missed opportunity.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Peter.
FENN: Don't think so.
CARLSON: He'd be marvelous.
FENN: He's not my guy. You know he's never been my guy.
CARLSON: Too bad.
BEGALA: Peter Fenn for the Democrats, Cheri Jacobus for the Republicans, thank you very much.
FENN: Thanks.
BEGALA: This will not be the last time we talk about veep- stakes, but it was certainly the best. Thank you very much.
Well, the strongman of Sacramento has added a few more titles to his plate. Next, an update on the busy life of Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Apparently, running the state of California, which has the sixth or seventh largest economy in the whole world, is just not enough heavy-lifting for Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. Over the weekend, Mr. Schwarzenegger was in Columbus, Ohio, along with some 80,000 fans and 600 exhibitors for the annual Arnold Fitness Weekend.
While he was there, it was announced that Governor Schwarzenegger will become -- get this -- the executive editor of not one, but two body building magazines, "Muscle & Fitness" and "Flex." It's sad, Tucker. He can't decide -- very promising beginning, but he can't decide if he wants to be like Ronald Reagan and be serious about politics or like Jesse Ventura and be a dilettante. And I think he's got the capacity to actually be a terrific success in politics.
CARLSON: I do think, though, that "Flex," embarrassing as it is, better than "Penthouse."
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: No, it is. I don't know. What do you expect? He's an actor. He's governor. I don't know. I'm not surprised.
BEGALA: He was terrific on "Meet the Press" last week, but he ought to stick to politics.
From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us again tomorrow for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now. Have a great night.
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