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CNN Crossfire
Can Condoleezza Rice Stand the Political Heat?
Aired March 29, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: She'll go on television, but she won't testify in front of the 9/11 Commission.
JOHN LEHMAN, 9/11 COMMISSION MEMBER: I think the White House is making a political blunder.
ANNOUNCER: Can National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice stand the political heat?
And how about Richard Clarke?
RICHARD CLARKE, FORMER COUNTERTERRORISM ADVISER: The White House has geared up this personal attack machine and is trying to undermine my credibility.
ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
President Bush has been pounded by disaffected aide Richard Clarke, the Democratic establishment, and the liberal news media, and has moved back in front of John Kerry in the polls.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: But the same poll shows that most Americans believe that the Bushies are engaged in a 9/11 cover-up.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Of course, the Bush White House could always just try telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. That might be a novel new strategy for them. We will debate the president's alternatives right after the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
A few moments ago, President Bush was on the South Lawn of the White House reading a speech about his commitment to freedom. It's a common theme of his. When he was selling his Iraq policy, President Bush said that one of his goals was to bring freedom of the press to the Arab world -- quote -- "Freedom of the press and the free flow of ideas are vital foundations of liberty," he said.
But, like so many other promises Mr. Bush has made about his war in Iraq, this one is hollow. It is false. It's a cynical manipulation of our highest ideals, all to justify Mr. Bush's greatest failure. Case in point, the Bush administration yesterday closed down and padlocked a Shiite newspaper in Baghdad, prompting protests in the streets of that city. Now the Bush administration's viceroy in Iraq said that the paper is being padlocked because it published false and misleading articles about Iraq.
But, of course, if spreading falsehoods about Iraq is enough to get you closed down, maybe somebody will be padlocking the White House soon.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: That's a -- that's a sarcastic, nasty comment about the White House. It doesn't become you, Paul.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: But let me tell you something else. I don't like closing down newspapers.
BEGALA: God bless you.
NOVAK: I think it's a -- it's a bad idea. And I'm sorry they did it.
BEGALA: I think we should stand for freedom in practice as well. And we often do.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: America is always in the right. But on this one, I think the president's wrong.
NOVAK: Question, which presidential candidate is more likely to use the Bible for political purposes, the born-again Christian conservative George W. Bush or the liberal Catholic John Kerry? The answer is Kerry when he gets in the vicinity of African-American worshipers.
On Sunday, the Democratic candidate went to the New Northside Baptist church in Saint Louis to do a little preaching. He cited James 2:14. "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith, but has no deeds?" In other words, Kerry told the black Christians that Republicans are ungodly because they don't spend enough of taxpayer money on the poor. Whatever happened to separation of church and state, John?
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: This coming from a friend of the Bush administration.
Look, the president, when he was the governor of Texas, went to Bob Jones University, the seat of anti-Catholic bigotry. And to make up for it, he wrote a letter to Cardinal O'Connor then of New York and he said, I try to live my life by Catholic social teachings. He wrote that letter the day after he executed a great grandmother. He is a monumental hypocrite on these issues of religion.
NOVAK: Why...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Why is it that liberals like you, Paul, attack Bush for using religion in politics, but all you people go before these black churches, and you are shameless in trying to use the Bible for politics?
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Well, yesterday was a gorgeous spring day here in our nation's capital. The cherry blossoms are out in bloom. And everyone -- at least everyone who has a life -- was outside enjoying the weather.
But senior White House aide Karl Rove was unable to even leave his home for a while yesterday afternoon. Hundreds of protesters swarmed all over Mr. Rove's lawn, some shouting, others pounding on his windows. It got so bad that, Mr. Rove's child was reduced to tears. Now look, I don't support Karl Rove on many issues, but it is wrong, it is simply wrong to come to a guy's home, bang on the windows and terrify his child.
If you want to protest Mr. Rove's role in, say, ruining the economy or misleading us into war, or anything else for that matter, do so at his office. Here's the address. Get your pencil out, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
Go there. But leave his home alone. Leave his family alone. Leave his kid alone. People who did this ought to be ashamed of themselves.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, I commend you, Paul, for that.
As you well know, they can't get within hailing distance of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. But although I commend you for your sentiments, I do believe it is people like you and my friend James Carville who have created these nuts who think that...
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Who think that, well, they incited them to riot and they think that Karl Rove is some kind of criminal and they go to his house.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Who was rioting in Miami to stop the counting of votes? Right-wing thugs. That what's they were doing in Miami in 2000, Bob.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That wasn't from Paul Begala and James Carville.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Let's stop the politics of personal assassination.
Senator Orrin Hatch, the Senate Judiciary Committee chairman, has annoyed fellow Republicans by letting his Democratic colleagues run all over him in their jihad against President Bush's judicial selections. But today, the audacity of the Democrats was too much even for Orrin. Last Friday, Senate Democratic Leader Tom Daschle warned that he would block all Bush judges if the president continued to make recess nominations when Congress is not in session of judicial nominee's previously unconstitutionally blocked by filibuster.
Said Senator Hatch -- quote -- "It is the unprecedented filibusters by the Democrats that necessitated the recess appointments that the Democrats are now criticizing" -- end quote. It is all unconstitutional. And the Democrats should be ashamed of themselves.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: No. What's wrong is for President Bush to be putting judges on the federal bench without being voted there by the Senate. That's a dictatorial move. That's not a democracy. The Constitution says the president has to earn the advice and consent of the Senate. If he can't get the Senate to consent, he has no right to put people on the bench.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: They are put there because there's not any permission given to vote by the Senate. They will not permit a vote.
BEGALA: Good.
NOVAK: So that's why they're not voted on.
BEGALA: Good.
NOVAK: That's what the hypocrisy is.
BEGALA: But they have to be confirmed before they go on the bench.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You wouldn't let them come to a vote.
BEGALA: I wouldn't want them to. I don't want them on the bench.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: That's right.
Well, anyway, a new CNN poll says that most Americans believe that the Bush administration is covering something up. National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice says she has got nothing to hide, but she refuses to testify under oath or in public about what President Bush did or failed to do in the war on terrorism. But will the political heat change all of that? That debate in a moment.
And then, are they going to have to shut down all the pubs in Ireland? God forbid. Later, a new law which some say will threaten the very fabric of Irish society.
Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Get ahead of the CROSSFIRE. Sign up for CROSSFIRE's daily "Political Alert" e-mail. You'll get a preview of each day's show, plus an inside look at the day's political headlines. Just go to CNN.com/CROSSFIRE and sign up today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to the live Washington audience, call 202-994-8CNN or e-mail us at CNN@gwu.edu. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice says she has nothing to hide from the 9/11 Commission. But the White House position is that, since the panel was created by Congress, her appearance would violate the Constitution's separations of powers.
In the CROSSFIRE, Representative Robert Wexler, Democrat of Florida, and Representative Tom Tancredo, Republican of Colorado, both members of the International Relations Committee.
Gentlemen, thank you for joining us. (CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It's good to see you again.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Apparently, apparently, you're appearing on the only television program in America that Condi Rice has not been on. I think, later tonight, she'll be on the Food Channel making a little guacamole.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: But let's let her speak for herself from an earlier television appearance, this one last night on "60 Minutes." Here's Dr. Condoleezza Rice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "60 MINUTES")
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Nothing would be better from my point of view than to be able to testify. I would really like to do that. But there's an important principle involved here. It is a long-standing principle that sitting national security advisers do not testify before the Congress.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Now, she does have a point. There is a long-standing principle that national security advisers shouldn't testify before the Congress. However, Zbigniew Brzezinski, who held the job under President Carter, did when Billy Carter was being investigated allegedly for lobbying for the Libyans.
Sandy Berger was the deputy national security adviser. He testified before the Congress as well. And President Ford himself testified before the Congress. When it matters, they do break that rule. Doesn't this matter? It's the greatest mass murder in American history. Shouldn't she be forced to testify?
REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: I'll tell you, there are two points here and two arguments that you can make.
One is a political argument. Should they do it for the politics of it? Brother, I'm not going to tell you that they're making the right call here. But -- but forget about that for a minute.
BEGALA: Set that aside. To investigate this crime?
TANCREDO: But the principle is one that is fully established. It is true that other members of the Cabinet and even policy advisers have testified, but not on matters of policy. Generally, it has always been, it has always been when there has been an allegation of some sort of criminal act or criminal intent.
BEGALA: Sir, this is the murder of 3,000 Americans. That's not enough of a crime? (CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It's the biggest crime in American history.
TANCREDO: Who has committed the crime? Who has committed the crime? It is al Qaeda. It is not -- we're not -- and that's who we should be looking at.
That is a precedent that has been set. This separation of powers issue is an important one. And I'm not arguing about the politics of it. But I am saying that the precedent is there. It's a long- standing one. And it's important one to have a national security adviser that can meet with the president of the United States every single day and that they can talk in what would be a confidential setting.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Congressman Wexler, I may be wrong, but I consider you a fair-minded person. And so I want...
TANCREDO: You're not wrong. He is.
NOVAK: Good. And I want you to listen...
TANCREDO: Except on this issue.
NOVAK: I want to listen -- I want you to listen what your presidential candidate, John Kerry, said about this over the weekend. Let's listen to him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If Condoleezza Rice can find time to do "60 Minutes" on television before the American people, she ought to find 60 minutes to speak to the commission under oath.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Now, that's a cute line. But, I think, I want you to agree with me that's demagogic, because it isn't she that can't find time. She never said she couldn't find time. She's got plenty of time. She said it's a constitutional principle. Whether you agree with it or not, let's argue it on the basis and not this smarmy thing. You agree with me on that?
REP. ROBERT WEXLER (D), FLORIDA: No, of course, not.
(LAUGHTER)
WEXLER: There's...
TANCREDO: I take back all my compliment.
WEXLER: There are a couple of important distinctions if we want to argue the legality of it. First of all, nobody is asking Dr. Rice to testify before Congress. She's being asked to testify before an independent commission of which the chairman was appointed by none other than her boss, the president.
And let's think about what just happened this last week. The president's counterterrorism czar, the main man, came before the American people and said, the president was asleep at the switch before September 11. And then he also said that the war in Iraq undermined our war against terror. Now, if Dr. Rice has a different view, which she is entitled to do and she should refute it, then let her go back to that same commission, under oath, and tell the American people why Mr. Clarke is dead wrong.
But doing it on "60 Minutes" is not sufficient. Doing it on all the TV shows in the world doesn't, under oath, tell the American people why we had the catastrophic loss we did.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: And, in fact, it is beginning to erode the president's credibility, Congressman. CNN's got a new poll out today. We asked the American people, is the Bush administration covering up something about handling intelligence on terrorism before 9/11? The majority of Americans, 53 percent, believe our president and his administration are participating in a cover-up about this greatest crime in American history.
(CROSSTALK)
TANCREDO: Paul, once again...
BEGALA: Now, that's a tragedy, isn't it?
TANCREDO: ... I'm not going to argue the politics of it. It's a bad move politically. You guys are going to be able to beat the living tar out of him and this administration as long as this thing is up there. That is true. And there's nothing I can do about that.
But whether or not they should cave in because of the political pressure and do what I think would be the wrong thing, and that is to say OK, forget about it. Never mind the principle. We're getting beat up on this issue; 53 percent don't agree with us. If...
(CROSSTALK)
TANCREDO: Now, wait a minute. Just a minute.
If, in fact, if, in fact, our purpose here is to actually get the information necessary to make sure that this doesn't happen again, that the 9/11 doesn't happen again, what makes us think that that cannot happen when she talks to the Security Council -- she talks to the commission for 4 1/2 hours? She is willing to go back and talk to the commission again.
BEGALA: Because she's not under oath. No, she's not under oath. That's the point. (CROSSTALK)
WEXLER: You can't stand on principle, as does the president, and say the presidential advisers can't be forced to make their testimony public, and say Dr. Rice can't come to testify, and then, on the other hand, say, take that Richard Clarke's testimony, even though he was a presidential adviser when he went to Congress and testified, and make it declassified and make it public just because he happens to agree with me. You can't have it both ways.
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: All right.
Paul brought up the new CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll. There's a lot of interesting stuff in that poll. I'm going to just run through some of it real quick. Did the Clinton administration do all that could be expected against terrorism? The American people say no by 2- 1. Next question. Could the Bush administration have prevented 9/11 from happening? The American people say no, they couldn't have prevented it by 3-1. Was it worth going to war in Iraq? Yes, 56 percent.
I mean, you people are on the wrong side of this issue, and you're trying to make a case out of it by attacking Condoleezza Rice. Isn't that true?
(APPLAUSE)
WEXLER: All the more reason why Dr. Rice ought to testify. I'll tell you one thing you're right about, Bob. Actually, Dr. Rice is really not the issue. The issue is the president. Why doesn't the president demand that Dr. Rice come and testify?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Because he's instructed her not to.
WEXLER: Let's stop scapegoating Condoleezza Rice.
That's right. It's, what does the president have to hide? And, Bob, Bill Clinton is not up for reelection. George Bush is.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Thank God.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: The heart of the matter, it seems to me, the difference is under oath. Obviously, Dr. Rice is not afraid to appear in public. She's a wonderfully articulate spokeswoman for her cause in public. The difference is, she doesn't seem to want to appear under oath. But others have, including Richard Clarke, as Congressman Wexler pointed out, President Bush's own top terrorism expert.
There have been others who have spoken out on this from the Bush administration. General Don Kerrick, a three-star general who served President Bush, said he didn't detect the same sense of urgency in the Bush Cabinet that he did in the Clinton Cabinet. A gentlemen named Flynt Leverett, who served on the National Security Council for Bush, backed up Mr. Clarke's testimony.
And even a guy by the name of George W. Bush, who told Bob Woodward in his book "Bush At War" -- quote -- "I didn't feel a sense of urgency" -- unquote -- about the al Qaeda threat. Now, are they going to attack President Bush's integrity now and his character?
TANCREDO: The fact is...
BEGALA: The evidence is abundantly clear from people who have been under oath that they did not take it seriously.
TANCREDO: What you're saying is, you're quoting the president of the United States making a statement telling somebody who writes it in a book. It's out there. That's not the issue. Nobody's trying to hide that, I don't believe.
And I also don't believe that Condoleezza Rice is afraid of going before this commission because oh, my God, I might have to lie about it. I do not believe that. She is -- let's let the commission also do their job. They have talked to her, as I say, for four hours. They're going to talk to her again. They can come out at the end of this thing and say, look, she stonewalled us. We think she lied to us. We got other information.
But you know what? I'm willing to let that process play out for the sake of trying to uphold this good constitutional principle, the constitutional principle, by the way, that several other national security advisers, including Berger and the president at the time, Bill Clinton, put in play -- I mean accepted and said, no, don't go, you will not testify to Sandy Berger, because that
(CROSSTALK)
TANCREDO: ... won't testify in front of Congress.
NOVAK: You want to briefly respond, Mr. Wexler?
WEXLER: September 11 is a uniquely devastating event in our history. The people in charge ought to appear before the American public under oath and tell us what they did and what they didn't. And then the American people, with this commission, that was the purpose of the commission, will reach a just result. But to not testify is to in essence deny the American people the just answers they are due.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Keep your seats, both, Congressmen. When we return, our two congressmen will face "Rapid Fire." And I'll ask them whether it's time for more people to apologize for what happened on September 11.
And then, right after the break, Wolf Blitzer will have the latest on whether the Tyco fraud case will survive its current jury controversy.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, the pressure mounts on Condoleezza Rice. Will she or won't she testify in public before the 9/11 Commission? And how is the American public reacting? We have brand-new poll numbers.
The twists and turns of the Tyco trial. The judge rules on the latest mistrial motion.
And how do you defend a man like Saddam Hussein? The ex-Iraqi president's new lawyer thinks he has the answer.
Those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
BEGALA: Thank you, Wolf. Look forward to your report.
Time here now for "Rapid Fire," where we ask as many questions as we can and, unlike Condoleezza Rice, our guests actually answer them in public.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Our guests are Colorado Republican Congressman Tom Tancredo and Democratic Congressman Robert Wexler.
TANCREDO: But not under oath.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
WEXLER: I swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth.
NOVAK: Mr. Wexler, the new Gallup poll shows President Bush has erased the big Kerry lead. He now leads 51 percent, 47 percent.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Doesn't this mean that the American people are reacting negatively to Dick Clarke?
WEXLER: No, I don't think so. This is a very close race. The important issue are the 16 or 17 races. And I know in my own home state of Florida, which may decide the election again, John Kerry is doing exceedingly well. And, remember, this is the state that his brother is the governor in.
BEGALA: Excellent.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Congressman Tancredo, Richard Clarke was -- he was very moved -- a lot of the families from 9/11 by apologizing in public. Should the president do the same thing?
TANCREDO: Well, I think the president has said that in 100 different ways and 100 different times, because who isn't upset? Who isn't? Who hasn't? Is there a single member of the Congress? Has this president ever in his -- in the entire history of the presidency done anything to indicate anything but being sorry that it has ever happened to us?
NOVAK: Mr. Wexler, quite apart from the Condoleezza Rice business, don't you believe that because of what he said, Dick Clarke's testimony before Congress should be declassified?
WEXLER: Only if Condoleezza Rice comes. If there's a principle...
NOVAK: I said quite apart from it, don't you think it should be declassified?
(CROSSTALK)
WEXLER: Yes, I do.
NOVAK: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
WEXLER: I think it would be excellent.
BEGALA: Help our audience understand why Clinton advisers from the White House should have to testify under oath about the president's sex life when Bush advisers don't have to testify about 9/11?
TANCREDO: There was...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
TANCREDO: It is called because there was a criminal investigation.
(BELL RINGING)
TANCREDO: There was a criminal intent. There was something called lying under oath that we were dealing with.
BEGALA: The murder of 3,000 people is a crime.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Congressman Wexler, Congressman Tancredo, thank you very much for being with us.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: It may be time for Irish lawmakers to butt out. Next, a new law which threatens a key element of the Irish heritage.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: Not all Irish eyes are smiling today. As of midnight, it's illegal to smoke in any closed public space in the entire country, which means you can't light up in a single Irish pub. The delirium of the brave that Irish poet William Butler Yeats wrote about has given way to the insanity of the nanny state. Yeats is right. Romantic Ireland is dead and gone.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: No, I say it's a great thing. I worked my way through college in part as a bartender. I shouldn't have to breathe the garbage that are other people are spewing out. God bless them.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak.
Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired March 29, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: She'll go on television, but she won't testify in front of the 9/11 Commission.
JOHN LEHMAN, 9/11 COMMISSION MEMBER: I think the White House is making a political blunder.
ANNOUNCER: Can National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice stand the political heat?
And how about Richard Clarke?
RICHARD CLARKE, FORMER COUNTERTERRORISM ADVISER: The White House has geared up this personal attack machine and is trying to undermine my credibility.
ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
President Bush has been pounded by disaffected aide Richard Clarke, the Democratic establishment, and the liberal news media, and has moved back in front of John Kerry in the polls.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: But the same poll shows that most Americans believe that the Bushies are engaged in a 9/11 cover-up.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Of course, the Bush White House could always just try telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. That might be a novel new strategy for them. We will debate the president's alternatives right after the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
A few moments ago, President Bush was on the South Lawn of the White House reading a speech about his commitment to freedom. It's a common theme of his. When he was selling his Iraq policy, President Bush said that one of his goals was to bring freedom of the press to the Arab world -- quote -- "Freedom of the press and the free flow of ideas are vital foundations of liberty," he said.
But, like so many other promises Mr. Bush has made about his war in Iraq, this one is hollow. It is false. It's a cynical manipulation of our highest ideals, all to justify Mr. Bush's greatest failure. Case in point, the Bush administration yesterday closed down and padlocked a Shiite newspaper in Baghdad, prompting protests in the streets of that city. Now the Bush administration's viceroy in Iraq said that the paper is being padlocked because it published false and misleading articles about Iraq.
But, of course, if spreading falsehoods about Iraq is enough to get you closed down, maybe somebody will be padlocking the White House soon.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: That's a -- that's a sarcastic, nasty comment about the White House. It doesn't become you, Paul.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: But let me tell you something else. I don't like closing down newspapers.
BEGALA: God bless you.
NOVAK: I think it's a -- it's a bad idea. And I'm sorry they did it.
BEGALA: I think we should stand for freedom in practice as well. And we often do.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: America is always in the right. But on this one, I think the president's wrong.
NOVAK: Question, which presidential candidate is more likely to use the Bible for political purposes, the born-again Christian conservative George W. Bush or the liberal Catholic John Kerry? The answer is Kerry when he gets in the vicinity of African-American worshipers.
On Sunday, the Democratic candidate went to the New Northside Baptist church in Saint Louis to do a little preaching. He cited James 2:14. "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith, but has no deeds?" In other words, Kerry told the black Christians that Republicans are ungodly because they don't spend enough of taxpayer money on the poor. Whatever happened to separation of church and state, John?
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: This coming from a friend of the Bush administration.
Look, the president, when he was the governor of Texas, went to Bob Jones University, the seat of anti-Catholic bigotry. And to make up for it, he wrote a letter to Cardinal O'Connor then of New York and he said, I try to live my life by Catholic social teachings. He wrote that letter the day after he executed a great grandmother. He is a monumental hypocrite on these issues of religion.
NOVAK: Why...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Why is it that liberals like you, Paul, attack Bush for using religion in politics, but all you people go before these black churches, and you are shameless in trying to use the Bible for politics?
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Well, yesterday was a gorgeous spring day here in our nation's capital. The cherry blossoms are out in bloom. And everyone -- at least everyone who has a life -- was outside enjoying the weather.
But senior White House aide Karl Rove was unable to even leave his home for a while yesterday afternoon. Hundreds of protesters swarmed all over Mr. Rove's lawn, some shouting, others pounding on his windows. It got so bad that, Mr. Rove's child was reduced to tears. Now look, I don't support Karl Rove on many issues, but it is wrong, it is simply wrong to come to a guy's home, bang on the windows and terrify his child.
If you want to protest Mr. Rove's role in, say, ruining the economy or misleading us into war, or anything else for that matter, do so at his office. Here's the address. Get your pencil out, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
Go there. But leave his home alone. Leave his family alone. Leave his kid alone. People who did this ought to be ashamed of themselves.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, I commend you, Paul, for that.
As you well know, they can't get within hailing distance of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. But although I commend you for your sentiments, I do believe it is people like you and my friend James Carville who have created these nuts who think that...
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Who think that, well, they incited them to riot and they think that Karl Rove is some kind of criminal and they go to his house.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Who was rioting in Miami to stop the counting of votes? Right-wing thugs. That what's they were doing in Miami in 2000, Bob.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That wasn't from Paul Begala and James Carville.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Let's stop the politics of personal assassination.
Senator Orrin Hatch, the Senate Judiciary Committee chairman, has annoyed fellow Republicans by letting his Democratic colleagues run all over him in their jihad against President Bush's judicial selections. But today, the audacity of the Democrats was too much even for Orrin. Last Friday, Senate Democratic Leader Tom Daschle warned that he would block all Bush judges if the president continued to make recess nominations when Congress is not in session of judicial nominee's previously unconstitutionally blocked by filibuster.
Said Senator Hatch -- quote -- "It is the unprecedented filibusters by the Democrats that necessitated the recess appointments that the Democrats are now criticizing" -- end quote. It is all unconstitutional. And the Democrats should be ashamed of themselves.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: No. What's wrong is for President Bush to be putting judges on the federal bench without being voted there by the Senate. That's a dictatorial move. That's not a democracy. The Constitution says the president has to earn the advice and consent of the Senate. If he can't get the Senate to consent, he has no right to put people on the bench.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: They are put there because there's not any permission given to vote by the Senate. They will not permit a vote.
BEGALA: Good.
NOVAK: So that's why they're not voted on.
BEGALA: Good.
NOVAK: That's what the hypocrisy is.
BEGALA: But they have to be confirmed before they go on the bench.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You wouldn't let them come to a vote.
BEGALA: I wouldn't want them to. I don't want them on the bench.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: That's right.
Well, anyway, a new CNN poll says that most Americans believe that the Bush administration is covering something up. National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice says she has got nothing to hide, but she refuses to testify under oath or in public about what President Bush did or failed to do in the war on terrorism. But will the political heat change all of that? That debate in a moment.
And then, are they going to have to shut down all the pubs in Ireland? God forbid. Later, a new law which some say will threaten the very fabric of Irish society.
Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Get ahead of the CROSSFIRE. Sign up for CROSSFIRE's daily "Political Alert" e-mail. You'll get a preview of each day's show, plus an inside look at the day's political headlines. Just go to CNN.com/CROSSFIRE and sign up today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to the live Washington audience, call 202-994-8CNN or e-mail us at CNN@gwu.edu. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice says she has nothing to hide from the 9/11 Commission. But the White House position is that, since the panel was created by Congress, her appearance would violate the Constitution's separations of powers.
In the CROSSFIRE, Representative Robert Wexler, Democrat of Florida, and Representative Tom Tancredo, Republican of Colorado, both members of the International Relations Committee.
Gentlemen, thank you for joining us. (CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It's good to see you again.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Apparently, apparently, you're appearing on the only television program in America that Condi Rice has not been on. I think, later tonight, she'll be on the Food Channel making a little guacamole.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: But let's let her speak for herself from an earlier television appearance, this one last night on "60 Minutes." Here's Dr. Condoleezza Rice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "60 MINUTES")
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Nothing would be better from my point of view than to be able to testify. I would really like to do that. But there's an important principle involved here. It is a long-standing principle that sitting national security advisers do not testify before the Congress.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Now, she does have a point. There is a long-standing principle that national security advisers shouldn't testify before the Congress. However, Zbigniew Brzezinski, who held the job under President Carter, did when Billy Carter was being investigated allegedly for lobbying for the Libyans.
Sandy Berger was the deputy national security adviser. He testified before the Congress as well. And President Ford himself testified before the Congress. When it matters, they do break that rule. Doesn't this matter? It's the greatest mass murder in American history. Shouldn't she be forced to testify?
REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: I'll tell you, there are two points here and two arguments that you can make.
One is a political argument. Should they do it for the politics of it? Brother, I'm not going to tell you that they're making the right call here. But -- but forget about that for a minute.
BEGALA: Set that aside. To investigate this crime?
TANCREDO: But the principle is one that is fully established. It is true that other members of the Cabinet and even policy advisers have testified, but not on matters of policy. Generally, it has always been, it has always been when there has been an allegation of some sort of criminal act or criminal intent.
BEGALA: Sir, this is the murder of 3,000 Americans. That's not enough of a crime? (CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It's the biggest crime in American history.
TANCREDO: Who has committed the crime? Who has committed the crime? It is al Qaeda. It is not -- we're not -- and that's who we should be looking at.
That is a precedent that has been set. This separation of powers issue is an important one. And I'm not arguing about the politics of it. But I am saying that the precedent is there. It's a long- standing one. And it's important one to have a national security adviser that can meet with the president of the United States every single day and that they can talk in what would be a confidential setting.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Congressman Wexler, I may be wrong, but I consider you a fair-minded person. And so I want...
TANCREDO: You're not wrong. He is.
NOVAK: Good. And I want you to listen...
TANCREDO: Except on this issue.
NOVAK: I want to listen -- I want you to listen what your presidential candidate, John Kerry, said about this over the weekend. Let's listen to him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If Condoleezza Rice can find time to do "60 Minutes" on television before the American people, she ought to find 60 minutes to speak to the commission under oath.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Now, that's a cute line. But, I think, I want you to agree with me that's demagogic, because it isn't she that can't find time. She never said she couldn't find time. She's got plenty of time. She said it's a constitutional principle. Whether you agree with it or not, let's argue it on the basis and not this smarmy thing. You agree with me on that?
REP. ROBERT WEXLER (D), FLORIDA: No, of course, not.
(LAUGHTER)
WEXLER: There's...
TANCREDO: I take back all my compliment.
WEXLER: There are a couple of important distinctions if we want to argue the legality of it. First of all, nobody is asking Dr. Rice to testify before Congress. She's being asked to testify before an independent commission of which the chairman was appointed by none other than her boss, the president.
And let's think about what just happened this last week. The president's counterterrorism czar, the main man, came before the American people and said, the president was asleep at the switch before September 11. And then he also said that the war in Iraq undermined our war against terror. Now, if Dr. Rice has a different view, which she is entitled to do and she should refute it, then let her go back to that same commission, under oath, and tell the American people why Mr. Clarke is dead wrong.
But doing it on "60 Minutes" is not sufficient. Doing it on all the TV shows in the world doesn't, under oath, tell the American people why we had the catastrophic loss we did.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: And, in fact, it is beginning to erode the president's credibility, Congressman. CNN's got a new poll out today. We asked the American people, is the Bush administration covering up something about handling intelligence on terrorism before 9/11? The majority of Americans, 53 percent, believe our president and his administration are participating in a cover-up about this greatest crime in American history.
(CROSSTALK)
TANCREDO: Paul, once again...
BEGALA: Now, that's a tragedy, isn't it?
TANCREDO: ... I'm not going to argue the politics of it. It's a bad move politically. You guys are going to be able to beat the living tar out of him and this administration as long as this thing is up there. That is true. And there's nothing I can do about that.
But whether or not they should cave in because of the political pressure and do what I think would be the wrong thing, and that is to say OK, forget about it. Never mind the principle. We're getting beat up on this issue; 53 percent don't agree with us. If...
(CROSSTALK)
TANCREDO: Now, wait a minute. Just a minute.
If, in fact, if, in fact, our purpose here is to actually get the information necessary to make sure that this doesn't happen again, that the 9/11 doesn't happen again, what makes us think that that cannot happen when she talks to the Security Council -- she talks to the commission for 4 1/2 hours? She is willing to go back and talk to the commission again.
BEGALA: Because she's not under oath. No, she's not under oath. That's the point. (CROSSTALK)
WEXLER: You can't stand on principle, as does the president, and say the presidential advisers can't be forced to make their testimony public, and say Dr. Rice can't come to testify, and then, on the other hand, say, take that Richard Clarke's testimony, even though he was a presidential adviser when he went to Congress and testified, and make it declassified and make it public just because he happens to agree with me. You can't have it both ways.
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: All right.
Paul brought up the new CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll. There's a lot of interesting stuff in that poll. I'm going to just run through some of it real quick. Did the Clinton administration do all that could be expected against terrorism? The American people say no by 2- 1. Next question. Could the Bush administration have prevented 9/11 from happening? The American people say no, they couldn't have prevented it by 3-1. Was it worth going to war in Iraq? Yes, 56 percent.
I mean, you people are on the wrong side of this issue, and you're trying to make a case out of it by attacking Condoleezza Rice. Isn't that true?
(APPLAUSE)
WEXLER: All the more reason why Dr. Rice ought to testify. I'll tell you one thing you're right about, Bob. Actually, Dr. Rice is really not the issue. The issue is the president. Why doesn't the president demand that Dr. Rice come and testify?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Because he's instructed her not to.
WEXLER: Let's stop scapegoating Condoleezza Rice.
That's right. It's, what does the president have to hide? And, Bob, Bill Clinton is not up for reelection. George Bush is.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Thank God.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: The heart of the matter, it seems to me, the difference is under oath. Obviously, Dr. Rice is not afraid to appear in public. She's a wonderfully articulate spokeswoman for her cause in public. The difference is, she doesn't seem to want to appear under oath. But others have, including Richard Clarke, as Congressman Wexler pointed out, President Bush's own top terrorism expert.
There have been others who have spoken out on this from the Bush administration. General Don Kerrick, a three-star general who served President Bush, said he didn't detect the same sense of urgency in the Bush Cabinet that he did in the Clinton Cabinet. A gentlemen named Flynt Leverett, who served on the National Security Council for Bush, backed up Mr. Clarke's testimony.
And even a guy by the name of George W. Bush, who told Bob Woodward in his book "Bush At War" -- quote -- "I didn't feel a sense of urgency" -- unquote -- about the al Qaeda threat. Now, are they going to attack President Bush's integrity now and his character?
TANCREDO: The fact is...
BEGALA: The evidence is abundantly clear from people who have been under oath that they did not take it seriously.
TANCREDO: What you're saying is, you're quoting the president of the United States making a statement telling somebody who writes it in a book. It's out there. That's not the issue. Nobody's trying to hide that, I don't believe.
And I also don't believe that Condoleezza Rice is afraid of going before this commission because oh, my God, I might have to lie about it. I do not believe that. She is -- let's let the commission also do their job. They have talked to her, as I say, for four hours. They're going to talk to her again. They can come out at the end of this thing and say, look, she stonewalled us. We think she lied to us. We got other information.
But you know what? I'm willing to let that process play out for the sake of trying to uphold this good constitutional principle, the constitutional principle, by the way, that several other national security advisers, including Berger and the president at the time, Bill Clinton, put in play -- I mean accepted and said, no, don't go, you will not testify to Sandy Berger, because that
(CROSSTALK)
TANCREDO: ... won't testify in front of Congress.
NOVAK: You want to briefly respond, Mr. Wexler?
WEXLER: September 11 is a uniquely devastating event in our history. The people in charge ought to appear before the American public under oath and tell us what they did and what they didn't. And then the American people, with this commission, that was the purpose of the commission, will reach a just result. But to not testify is to in essence deny the American people the just answers they are due.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Keep your seats, both, Congressmen. When we return, our two congressmen will face "Rapid Fire." And I'll ask them whether it's time for more people to apologize for what happened on September 11.
And then, right after the break, Wolf Blitzer will have the latest on whether the Tyco fraud case will survive its current jury controversy.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, the pressure mounts on Condoleezza Rice. Will she or won't she testify in public before the 9/11 Commission? And how is the American public reacting? We have brand-new poll numbers.
The twists and turns of the Tyco trial. The judge rules on the latest mistrial motion.
And how do you defend a man like Saddam Hussein? The ex-Iraqi president's new lawyer thinks he has the answer.
Those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
BEGALA: Thank you, Wolf. Look forward to your report.
Time here now for "Rapid Fire," where we ask as many questions as we can and, unlike Condoleezza Rice, our guests actually answer them in public.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Our guests are Colorado Republican Congressman Tom Tancredo and Democratic Congressman Robert Wexler.
TANCREDO: But not under oath.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
WEXLER: I swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth.
NOVAK: Mr. Wexler, the new Gallup poll shows President Bush has erased the big Kerry lead. He now leads 51 percent, 47 percent.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Doesn't this mean that the American people are reacting negatively to Dick Clarke?
WEXLER: No, I don't think so. This is a very close race. The important issue are the 16 or 17 races. And I know in my own home state of Florida, which may decide the election again, John Kerry is doing exceedingly well. And, remember, this is the state that his brother is the governor in.
BEGALA: Excellent.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Congressman Tancredo, Richard Clarke was -- he was very moved -- a lot of the families from 9/11 by apologizing in public. Should the president do the same thing?
TANCREDO: Well, I think the president has said that in 100 different ways and 100 different times, because who isn't upset? Who isn't? Who hasn't? Is there a single member of the Congress? Has this president ever in his -- in the entire history of the presidency done anything to indicate anything but being sorry that it has ever happened to us?
NOVAK: Mr. Wexler, quite apart from the Condoleezza Rice business, don't you believe that because of what he said, Dick Clarke's testimony before Congress should be declassified?
WEXLER: Only if Condoleezza Rice comes. If there's a principle...
NOVAK: I said quite apart from it, don't you think it should be declassified?
(CROSSTALK)
WEXLER: Yes, I do.
NOVAK: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
WEXLER: I think it would be excellent.
BEGALA: Help our audience understand why Clinton advisers from the White House should have to testify under oath about the president's sex life when Bush advisers don't have to testify about 9/11?
TANCREDO: There was...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
TANCREDO: It is called because there was a criminal investigation.
(BELL RINGING)
TANCREDO: There was a criminal intent. There was something called lying under oath that we were dealing with.
BEGALA: The murder of 3,000 people is a crime.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Congressman Wexler, Congressman Tancredo, thank you very much for being with us.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: It may be time for Irish lawmakers to butt out. Next, a new law which threatens a key element of the Irish heritage.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: Not all Irish eyes are smiling today. As of midnight, it's illegal to smoke in any closed public space in the entire country, which means you can't light up in a single Irish pub. The delirium of the brave that Irish poet William Butler Yeats wrote about has given way to the insanity of the nanny state. Yeats is right. Romantic Ireland is dead and gone.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: No, I say it's a great thing. I worked my way through college in part as a bartender. I shouldn't have to breathe the garbage that are other people are spewing out. God bless them.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak.
Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
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