Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Crossfire
Iraq and U.S. Politics
Aired April 06, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: the deadly and dangerous situation in Iraq and the politics back home.
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: We didn't understand what we were getting ourselves into in Vietnam. We didn't understand what we were doing in Iraq.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We'll stay the course in Iraq. We're not going to be intimidated by thugs or assassins.
ANNOUNCER: The political war over Iraq -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: LIVE FROM the George Washington University, James Carville and Robert Novak.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
In his stump speech, As President Bush likes to say, we need to hold people accountable for telling the truth. Good idea, Mr. President. We'll start right now.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: And the truth is, while the U.S. military is on the offensive against insurgents in Iraq, Democrats are only interested in continuing their political offensive against the president here at home.
Before we let them, however, we'll bring you the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Was President Clinton really concerned about terrorism in his final weeks in office, as Democrats now claim? Not at all, according to a reliable witness, the witness being none other than Bill Clinton himself. "The Washington Times" has taken a look at the final policy paper on national security submitted to Congress by President Clinton, which is now available to the public. It is 45,000 words long, but makes no mention whatever of al Qaeda and mentions Osama bin Laden by name only four times. I wonder what Dick Clarke thinks of that? Only, wasn't Clarke Clinton's main adviser on terrorism and therefore responsible for this policy paper?
CARVILLE: Wait a minute. That's four more times than Bush, Cheney, or Rice ever mentioned it. And if you go to some...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Don't think of a policy paper. Every person who worked in the Clinton and Bush administration said that the Clinton administration was far more focused than the Bush administration. Bob, the truth is coming out. It will set you free. It will set the Republicans out of Washington.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: You'll be a better person for it.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: But I'll tell you this, James.
CARVILLE: You know?
NOVAK: When he only mentions al Qaeda once, that means Dick Clarke is just not telling
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I thought it was four.
NOVAK: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: That means that Dick Clarke is just not telling the truth.
CARVILLE: Is it one or four times?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Once. Once.
CARVILLE: I thought you said four in the thing.
NOVAK: Osama bin Laden four times.
CARVILLE: I see. I see. OK. All right.
NOVAK: You've got to listen. You've got to listen.
CARVILLE: All right.
Since CROSSFIRE signed off yesterday, seven more American soldiers have died in uprisings in Baghdad and Fallujah. With this much American blood being spilled, it's worth asking again, why in the hell are we there sending our kids over there to begin with? And the answer is because George W. Bush wanted to go to war so badly that he believed intelligence he should have known was false.
For example, a claim that Saddam had mobile weapons labs came from a guy the CIA never interviewed, a guy who was the brother of a senior aide of Ahmad Chalabi, a guy was so German authorities told us was a liar. The guy was so sketchy that we actually know his code name, Curveball.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Senator Pat Robertson, the Republican chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said here on CNN that the administration's use of flawed intelligence that came from Curveball is -- quote -- "embarrassing to everybody" -- unquote.
With all due respect, Senator Roberts, it's not only embarrassing for everybody. For 622 of our soldier who gave the ultimate sacrifice, it was deadly.
NOVAK: You know, you liberal Democrats have got this habit. When we have American men fighting abroad, you undercut them.
Instead of attack...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Wait a minute. I'm talking.
Instead of attacking the terrorists, instead of attacking the killers of our troops, you attack the men who are doing the fighting and you undermine them when you say...
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: ... they're not there for a good reason.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: We have a unique -- we have a very unique thing, and I want you to try to understand that. We think, before you send American boys and American women into combat...
NOVAK: I heard you once.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: ... that you ought to tell them the truth. I understand it's foreign to you, but we actually believe that.
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) NOVAK: Here is some really bad news for John Kerry. The first Mason-Dixon poll of Florida since John Kerry wrapped up the Democratic nomination certainly does not show a dead heat there. On the contrary, President Bush leads 51 percent to 43 percent, an eight percentage point lead.
Now, there may be a way for Kerry to be elected president without carrying Florida, but it sure isn't easy. The new poll shows that Senator Kerry's name recognition went up nine points in Florida to 32 percent. But his unfavorable rating has doubled from 21 percent to 42 percent. The problem is, the more Floridians see of John Kerry, the less they like him.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: You know, I never like to talk about polls because, you know -- did you see the latest Pew poll on Bush's job approval?
NOVAK: Well, we're talking about the Florida poll. Why do you change the subject?
CARVILLE: I said you want to talk about polls, how about 43 percent? Forty-three percent of people in the United States approve of the job this president's doing. Bob, freedom is coming to you November. The yolk of defending these people will be off your back. You will be liberated.
NOVAK: You know what?
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You know what you haven't figured out, even after 2000, that this is an Electoral College thing.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: If you can't carry Florida, you're out of it.
CARVILLE: You will be liberated -- you will be liberated, Bob, from the yolk of this lying, oppressive administration.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Republicans find it's tough to get the guy out of a race when he digs in his heels, especially when they're high heels.
Right now, the Texas Republican Party is all worked over for a guy named Sam Walls, who's running for the state legislature. Walls is a rock-solid Republican whose family made a fortune on men's work clothing. But recently, a number of embarrassing photos have surfaced of Walls in women's clothing.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Because of Walls' past cross-dressing, the county party chairs asked him to drop out of the race. But Walls' supporters are sticking with him. One of them said, wearing earrings, a wig and heels won't keep him Walls being an excellent state representative -- quote -- "People think J. Edgar Hoover was one of the greatest Americans that ever lived, and he was a cross-dresser."
I want to congratulate Walls' supporters. If Americans can have a president who plays dress-up in a flight suit, the Texas Republican Party should be allowed to have a candidate who has a thing for women's clothes.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, I don't. For all I know, James, you might be a cross-dresser. That doesn't bother me much.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: No?
NOVAK: But let me tell you something. You don't know much about everything, but I can tell you that the whole myth about J. Edgar Hoover was planted by the communists. He never did any cross- dressing.
CARVILLE: Yes, he did. I think -- did he like bras or panties?
NOVAK: Absolutely not. That was a
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: If the man wants to get in a pair of panties, that's his business. I wasn't offended. I mean, it doesn't matter.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: It doesn't have to do with how he does his job.
NOVAK: Iraq and politics. Will the politics of the presidential race overshadow the fight to bring democracy to Iraq? And if a one- time James Bond has his way, we may soon be celebrating the wearing of the plaid. Man, oh, man. We'll tell you what 007 is doing in Washington to promote this silly cause.
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Get ahead of the CROSSFIRE. Sign up for CROSSFIRE's daily "Political Alert" e-mail. You'll get a preview of each day's show, plus an inside look at the day's political headlines. Just go to CNN.com/CROSSFIRE and sign up today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Sources are telling CNN coalition troops are under attack right now from a new offense ordered by the Muslim cleric we're trying to catch. What kind of a mess has President Bush gotten us into?
Senator Edward Kennedy's answer drove Republicans absolutely nuts yesterday -- quote -- "Iraq is George Bush's Vietnam."
In the CROSSFIRE to talk war and politics are former Virginia Governor James Gilmore, the chairman of the special commission that studied our ability to respond to domestic terrorism. Also here is Maryland Democratic Congressman Albert Wynn.
NOVAK: Congressman Wynn, I thought Senator Kennedy's comment was one of the silliest things I had ever heard. I went many times to Vietnam. That was a war against a regular army, where, under Lyndon Johnson, we were losing about 1,000 casualties a week.
And I want to tell you somebody else who disagreed with Senator Kennedy, the former Democratic chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, the leading Democrat spokesman on foreign policy in the Senate, Joe Biden.
Let's listen to what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: I happen not to think it's Vietnam. And I happen to think this is still redeemable. I think we can still do this. But I do think the president needs to put forward a plan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Now, that's a partisan statement. It's good partisanship, but it isn't ridiculous, like Senator Kennedy's. Who do you agree with, Kennedy or Biden?
REP. ALBERT WYNN (D), MARYLAND: Like both my Democratic senators, I agree with Kennedy.
I'm going to use a Q word. This is a quagmire. And, more importantly, the Republicans know it. It's politically a lot of trouble, a lot of problems. And we've got a misguided war. We've got arrogance, ineptitude. We are losing the peace. We're failing to create stability. There is no real asset to be pointed to with respect to the handling of the war.
NOVAK: You think it's good politics, when Americans are fighting and we're fighting terrorism, to attack the president, instead of attacking the terrorists?
WYNN: In a democracy, criticism is always legitimate. In this case, it's particularly legitimate.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Let me -- Governor, let me read to you what Senator Kennedy says, because -- as opposed to what Bob said he said -- quote -- "We didn't understand what we're getting ourselves to in Vietnam. We didn't understand what we were getting ourselves to in Iraq. We had misrepresentations about what we'd be able to do militarily in Vietnam and I think we're finding that out in Iraq. That is the basic similarity."
Now, what sane person could disagree with Senator Kennedy? I mean, Senator Kennedy is one of the greatest Americans. What sane person could disagree with that statement?
JAMES GILMORE (R), FORMER VIRGINIA GOVERNOR: Listen. Listen, James. Listen.
There's nothing wrong with honest discourse about public policy, but this goes too far. This goes too far.
CARVILLE: How? To say -- why?
(APPLAUSE)
GILMORE: This is sewing discontent within the ranks. This is a big problem we've got. It isn't just in Iraq. It's all across the Middle East. I just returned from the Middle East. This is a serious problem. And to have a leading United States senator sew discord within the ranks is dangerous for this country, and he ought to back off.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Governor, let me show you another United States senator. Can I see Senator Lugar here? And let me show you what he said to say this Sunday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THIS WEEK")
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, HOST: Senator Lugar, is it time to extend the timeline? Is June 30 just too soon?
SEN. RICHARD LUGAR (R), INDIANA: It may be. And I think it's probably time to have that debate, because, clearly, pragmatically, as we're discussing today, you have the militia that's not been disarmed. And if, in fact, the worst situation comes, the militia begin to fight each other, and that is civil war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: Do you hear? He's saying we ought to put off the June 30 thing. We haven't disarmed the militia or anything else. I mean, what is this? We're all bad Americans because Senator Kennedy says that we don't understand what we're getting ourselves into
(CROSSTALK)
GILMORE: No, Senator Kennedy is playing election-year politics, and that's bad in foreign policy.
Now, listen, this is a big issue that we've got to deal with. It runs all the way across the Middle East. We've got a lot to do here. We don't need that kind of backlash.
NOVAK: Congressman, I would like to remember -- remind everybody that the person who put the United States in Vietnam was a man named John F. Kennedy, who was the senator's brother, just for the historical record.
But I want to show you something that Senator Mitch McConnell, the Senate Republican whip, said. I just want you -- I think -- I've always considered you a very reasonable man, Mr. Wynn. And I want you to...
(LAUGHTER)
WYNN: Here it comes.
NOVAK: I want you to listen to him and say if we can't all reason together. Listen to what Mitch McConnell says.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R), KENTUCKY: I would simply say this, Mr. President, to the senator from Massachusetts, that the only one responsible for the attack on America is al Qaeda. Further, I would say we need to focus on rooting out global terrorism by fighting the terrorists and not each other.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Can you disagree with any of that?
WYNN: I think that's stating the obvious as though it were profound.
CARVILLE: Right.
WYNN: Look, I mean, the fact...
(APPLAUSE)
WYNN: I mean, the fact is, we support our troops. What we question is the leadership they're getting from the Bush administration. We've said all along, there are not enough troops. They're not the right kind of troops. We need more U.N. participation. There are lot of things we can do.
NOVAK: What U.N. participation are you talking about, the French? Do you think the French are going to get in there?
WYNN: I wouldn't specify the French, but I think...
NOVAK: How about the Germans? Do you think the Germans are going to get in there, the Russians?
WYNN: But I think
(CROSSTALK) WYNN: ... have a little more humility and a little more outreach would enable us to have different troops in there other than United States troops, a different face on this conflict. And I think, if we had a different face on this conflict, we might have fewer fatalities.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: When's the last time Senator Kennedy or you attacked al Qaeda instead of George W. Bush?
WYNN: I've attacked al Qaeda for what it's worth.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: I haven't heard you yet.
CARVILLE: What does that got to do with Iraq? Do you know of any connection between al Qaeda and Iraq? No one has been able to produce one. What the hell are we talking about al Qaeda and Iraq for?
WYNN: That's very true.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Governor, let me -- we, today, CNN is reporting that the Shias, which were supposed to be our friends and part of the people that were going to meet us with roses, I think Vice President Cheney said.
(CROSSTALK)
WYNN: The great liberators we would be welcomed as.
CARVILLE: Have now opened an offensive against us. President Bush and Vice President Cheney continually say that escalating violence is a sign of success in Iraq. Do you think they really believe that or do you think they just say that as an election-year spin?
GILMORE: No, I think the challenge this country faces is instability across the entire Middle East, an aggressive type of instability which manifested itself at 9/11.
The president is doing everything he can do to go in and bring to try to bring some democracy, stability, and reasonableness, to get rid of these kinds of dictators that are creating this kind of violence and this kind of bad philosophy, which is an attack, not just on the United States, but the entire Western world. This is going to be a long, hard pull. And what we don't need is people playing election- year politics with this kind of foreign policy.
(APPLAUSE) NOVAK: You know, Congressman Wynn, I'd have to say that you're smiling about this attack going on. You really welcome this breakdown here as a chance to elect John Kerry as president, don't you?
WYNN: That's not the point.
NOVAK: You were smiling and laughing about it.
WYNN: That's not the point. The point is, this is a failure by the Bush administration. It's shortchanging our troops. We have not accomplished our goal. We don't have the stability that you refer to. And that is the real problem. It's nothing to smile about. The point is, this administration...
NOVAK: Well, you were smiling about it. You thought it was fun.
WYNN: The point is this administration's arrogance and incompetence is what's gotten us into this mess. And that's what the Republicans aren't willing to deal with. The public realizes it. Public approval of Bush administration's handling of this situation is declining rapidly. I think it speaks for itself.
CARVILLE: Bob Novak just said...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Bob Novak just said something I agree with, that we have a breakdown in Iraq. Is that sending the wrong signal to our troops, him attacking the administration like that, viciously attacking them, calling this thing a breakdown, when the president and vice president keep insisting what we're doing over there is working brilliantly? Should we call this a breakdown, or is that a bad American that would do something like that?
GILMORE: You know, it's not a matter of criticizing people that want to engage in discussion or in discourse.
But I think that we simply have to recognize that this is going to be a big challenge. It was dangerous before 9/11. It's dangerous now. It was dangerous before Saddam was removed. And it's a situation that's going to take a lot of work, and it's going to take a lot of work beyond Iraq. But one thing we knew for sure, and that was that, as long as we continued to have an aggressive, unstable, dangerous government in Iraq, something had to be done in order to change that situation.
Now, we've done that now, and the people of Iraq are going to benefit from that. But we have a long way to go and a lot more to do, and there's no doubt about it.
NOVAK: OK, we're going to take a break.
Next, in "Rapid Fire," we'll ask our guests why some are saying no to one country who really wants to help in Iraq.
And just ahead, breaking news out of Iraq, bold new attacks on U.S. forces. Wolf Blitzer will bring us the very latest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, we're following a major developing story. Attacks under way right now against U.S. forces in Iraq. Sources here in Washington say this is significant fighting. We're getting more information. We'll bring it to you in a matter of minutes.
A CNN exclusive on the move with U.S. special forces in Afghanistan. What have they come across in the hunt for Osama bin Laden?
A bold move. Retail giant Wal-Mart has big plans for an L.A. suburb, but it's the hands of voters right now.
Those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" -- now back to CROSSFIRE.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: It's time for "Rapid Fire," where we ask questions and answers even faster than the Bush administration can make excuses for the mess they've got us into Iraq.
Our guests are domestic terrorism response commission chairman James Gilmore, the former governor of my state of Virginia, and my dear friend Maryland Democratic Congressman Albert Wynn.
NOVAK: Congressman Wynn, you Democrats want to say we've got to have more foreign troops in there. There is one foreign country ready to put a substantial number of troops in there immediately, Turkey. Would you let the Turks come in there and help us?
WYNN: I think we ought to consider it, but it's a complicated situation.
But the point is, we need other troops, not necessarily just the Turks. We need to bring in other troops from around the world to put an international face on this conflict.
CARVILLE: Governor, regardless of what we think about how we got into this war or the wisdom of the war or anything, would you agree with me that whoever this Shiite cleric is picked on the wrong people when he started to mess with the United States Marine Corps?
GILMORE: Yes, I think that they ought not to try to be doing a rebellion, which could lead to a complete breakdown, which could lead to chaos in Iraq. I don't think that that is good for the people of Iraq. The American military is there to try to bring some stability as we turn over authority back over to the people of Iraq. I think it's a good approach.
It's the right direction. And what's going on right now is going to hurt a lot of people, and it's just bad for everyday people in Iraq.
NOVAK: Congressman, there was one Democratic candidate for president who had a solution to end all U.S. casualties. Dennis Kucinich, running for president, said, let's get the troops out tomorrow, no more casualties. Good idea?
WYNN: Bad idea. We have to stay the course. We just need to do it more intelligently than this administration is doing it.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Thomas White, President Bush's friend and first secretary of the Army, said Robert McNamara, four years of Vietnam going down the toilet, was absolutely convinced with a religious zeal he was doing the right thing. And I think that you have the same thing with Don Rumsfeld talking about Iraq. Do you think Thomas White, former Bush secretary of the Army, is a bad American for comparing Iraq and Robert McNamara and Don Rumsfeld and Iraq?
GILMORE: I think he was making an historic observation. But we've got to deal with the current situation that we're dealing with now. And that means that Iraq is only a part of the overall challenge that we're seeing.
(BELL RINGING)
GILMORE: Not just to the United States, but to Western civilization. We've got to stay the course.
NOVAK: That's the last word. Thank you very much, Governor.
Congressman, thank you.
James Bond is visiting the nation's capital. He's on a mission. We'll tell you what it is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: People come to Washington all the time to promote screwy causes, so nobody should be too surprised to see actor and one-time 007 Sean Connery parading around the city promoting something called Tartan Day.
One day a year, people of Scottish heritage are supposed to wear plaid and pretend they like the squawking of the bagpipes. It's harmless. But if you want a real celebration of scotch, just visit any of Washington's barrooms during happy hour.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Actually, in my hometown and Governor Gilmore's hometown and Governor Warner, the great Democratic current governor of Virginia, every time I turn around, they have some kind of men parading in tartan. We have more Scotch heritage parades than anything in the world.
So, Sean Connery, you need to come to
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... Alexandria and see all the parades there.
NOVAK: Who were you for, the British or the Scots?
CARVILLE: Who was I for, the British or the Scots? I'm for the United Kingdom.
From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak.
Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired April 6, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: the deadly and dangerous situation in Iraq and the politics back home.
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: We didn't understand what we were getting ourselves into in Vietnam. We didn't understand what we were doing in Iraq.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We'll stay the course in Iraq. We're not going to be intimidated by thugs or assassins.
ANNOUNCER: The political war over Iraq -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: LIVE FROM the George Washington University, James Carville and Robert Novak.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
In his stump speech, As President Bush likes to say, we need to hold people accountable for telling the truth. Good idea, Mr. President. We'll start right now.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: And the truth is, while the U.S. military is on the offensive against insurgents in Iraq, Democrats are only interested in continuing their political offensive against the president here at home.
Before we let them, however, we'll bring you the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Was President Clinton really concerned about terrorism in his final weeks in office, as Democrats now claim? Not at all, according to a reliable witness, the witness being none other than Bill Clinton himself. "The Washington Times" has taken a look at the final policy paper on national security submitted to Congress by President Clinton, which is now available to the public. It is 45,000 words long, but makes no mention whatever of al Qaeda and mentions Osama bin Laden by name only four times. I wonder what Dick Clarke thinks of that? Only, wasn't Clarke Clinton's main adviser on terrorism and therefore responsible for this policy paper?
CARVILLE: Wait a minute. That's four more times than Bush, Cheney, or Rice ever mentioned it. And if you go to some...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Don't think of a policy paper. Every person who worked in the Clinton and Bush administration said that the Clinton administration was far more focused than the Bush administration. Bob, the truth is coming out. It will set you free. It will set the Republicans out of Washington.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: You'll be a better person for it.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: But I'll tell you this, James.
CARVILLE: You know?
NOVAK: When he only mentions al Qaeda once, that means Dick Clarke is just not telling
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I thought it was four.
NOVAK: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: That means that Dick Clarke is just not telling the truth.
CARVILLE: Is it one or four times?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Once. Once.
CARVILLE: I thought you said four in the thing.
NOVAK: Osama bin Laden four times.
CARVILLE: I see. I see. OK. All right.
NOVAK: You've got to listen. You've got to listen.
CARVILLE: All right.
Since CROSSFIRE signed off yesterday, seven more American soldiers have died in uprisings in Baghdad and Fallujah. With this much American blood being spilled, it's worth asking again, why in the hell are we there sending our kids over there to begin with? And the answer is because George W. Bush wanted to go to war so badly that he believed intelligence he should have known was false.
For example, a claim that Saddam had mobile weapons labs came from a guy the CIA never interviewed, a guy who was the brother of a senior aide of Ahmad Chalabi, a guy was so German authorities told us was a liar. The guy was so sketchy that we actually know his code name, Curveball.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Senator Pat Robertson, the Republican chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said here on CNN that the administration's use of flawed intelligence that came from Curveball is -- quote -- "embarrassing to everybody" -- unquote.
With all due respect, Senator Roberts, it's not only embarrassing for everybody. For 622 of our soldier who gave the ultimate sacrifice, it was deadly.
NOVAK: You know, you liberal Democrats have got this habit. When we have American men fighting abroad, you undercut them.
Instead of attack...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Wait a minute. I'm talking.
Instead of attacking the terrorists, instead of attacking the killers of our troops, you attack the men who are doing the fighting and you undermine them when you say...
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: ... they're not there for a good reason.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: We have a unique -- we have a very unique thing, and I want you to try to understand that. We think, before you send American boys and American women into combat...
NOVAK: I heard you once.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: ... that you ought to tell them the truth. I understand it's foreign to you, but we actually believe that.
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) NOVAK: Here is some really bad news for John Kerry. The first Mason-Dixon poll of Florida since John Kerry wrapped up the Democratic nomination certainly does not show a dead heat there. On the contrary, President Bush leads 51 percent to 43 percent, an eight percentage point lead.
Now, there may be a way for Kerry to be elected president without carrying Florida, but it sure isn't easy. The new poll shows that Senator Kerry's name recognition went up nine points in Florida to 32 percent. But his unfavorable rating has doubled from 21 percent to 42 percent. The problem is, the more Floridians see of John Kerry, the less they like him.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: You know, I never like to talk about polls because, you know -- did you see the latest Pew poll on Bush's job approval?
NOVAK: Well, we're talking about the Florida poll. Why do you change the subject?
CARVILLE: I said you want to talk about polls, how about 43 percent? Forty-three percent of people in the United States approve of the job this president's doing. Bob, freedom is coming to you November. The yolk of defending these people will be off your back. You will be liberated.
NOVAK: You know what?
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You know what you haven't figured out, even after 2000, that this is an Electoral College thing.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: If you can't carry Florida, you're out of it.
CARVILLE: You will be liberated -- you will be liberated, Bob, from the yolk of this lying, oppressive administration.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Republicans find it's tough to get the guy out of a race when he digs in his heels, especially when they're high heels.
Right now, the Texas Republican Party is all worked over for a guy named Sam Walls, who's running for the state legislature. Walls is a rock-solid Republican whose family made a fortune on men's work clothing. But recently, a number of embarrassing photos have surfaced of Walls in women's clothing.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Because of Walls' past cross-dressing, the county party chairs asked him to drop out of the race. But Walls' supporters are sticking with him. One of them said, wearing earrings, a wig and heels won't keep him Walls being an excellent state representative -- quote -- "People think J. Edgar Hoover was one of the greatest Americans that ever lived, and he was a cross-dresser."
I want to congratulate Walls' supporters. If Americans can have a president who plays dress-up in a flight suit, the Texas Republican Party should be allowed to have a candidate who has a thing for women's clothes.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, I don't. For all I know, James, you might be a cross-dresser. That doesn't bother me much.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: No?
NOVAK: But let me tell you something. You don't know much about everything, but I can tell you that the whole myth about J. Edgar Hoover was planted by the communists. He never did any cross- dressing.
CARVILLE: Yes, he did. I think -- did he like bras or panties?
NOVAK: Absolutely not. That was a
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: If the man wants to get in a pair of panties, that's his business. I wasn't offended. I mean, it doesn't matter.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: It doesn't have to do with how he does his job.
NOVAK: Iraq and politics. Will the politics of the presidential race overshadow the fight to bring democracy to Iraq? And if a one- time James Bond has his way, we may soon be celebrating the wearing of the plaid. Man, oh, man. We'll tell you what 007 is doing in Washington to promote this silly cause.
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Get ahead of the CROSSFIRE. Sign up for CROSSFIRE's daily "Political Alert" e-mail. You'll get a preview of each day's show, plus an inside look at the day's political headlines. Just go to CNN.com/CROSSFIRE and sign up today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Sources are telling CNN coalition troops are under attack right now from a new offense ordered by the Muslim cleric we're trying to catch. What kind of a mess has President Bush gotten us into?
Senator Edward Kennedy's answer drove Republicans absolutely nuts yesterday -- quote -- "Iraq is George Bush's Vietnam."
In the CROSSFIRE to talk war and politics are former Virginia Governor James Gilmore, the chairman of the special commission that studied our ability to respond to domestic terrorism. Also here is Maryland Democratic Congressman Albert Wynn.
NOVAK: Congressman Wynn, I thought Senator Kennedy's comment was one of the silliest things I had ever heard. I went many times to Vietnam. That was a war against a regular army, where, under Lyndon Johnson, we were losing about 1,000 casualties a week.
And I want to tell you somebody else who disagreed with Senator Kennedy, the former Democratic chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, the leading Democrat spokesman on foreign policy in the Senate, Joe Biden.
Let's listen to what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: I happen not to think it's Vietnam. And I happen to think this is still redeemable. I think we can still do this. But I do think the president needs to put forward a plan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Now, that's a partisan statement. It's good partisanship, but it isn't ridiculous, like Senator Kennedy's. Who do you agree with, Kennedy or Biden?
REP. ALBERT WYNN (D), MARYLAND: Like both my Democratic senators, I agree with Kennedy.
I'm going to use a Q word. This is a quagmire. And, more importantly, the Republicans know it. It's politically a lot of trouble, a lot of problems. And we've got a misguided war. We've got arrogance, ineptitude. We are losing the peace. We're failing to create stability. There is no real asset to be pointed to with respect to the handling of the war.
NOVAK: You think it's good politics, when Americans are fighting and we're fighting terrorism, to attack the president, instead of attacking the terrorists?
WYNN: In a democracy, criticism is always legitimate. In this case, it's particularly legitimate.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Let me -- Governor, let me read to you what Senator Kennedy says, because -- as opposed to what Bob said he said -- quote -- "We didn't understand what we're getting ourselves to in Vietnam. We didn't understand what we were getting ourselves to in Iraq. We had misrepresentations about what we'd be able to do militarily in Vietnam and I think we're finding that out in Iraq. That is the basic similarity."
Now, what sane person could disagree with Senator Kennedy? I mean, Senator Kennedy is one of the greatest Americans. What sane person could disagree with that statement?
JAMES GILMORE (R), FORMER VIRGINIA GOVERNOR: Listen. Listen, James. Listen.
There's nothing wrong with honest discourse about public policy, but this goes too far. This goes too far.
CARVILLE: How? To say -- why?
(APPLAUSE)
GILMORE: This is sewing discontent within the ranks. This is a big problem we've got. It isn't just in Iraq. It's all across the Middle East. I just returned from the Middle East. This is a serious problem. And to have a leading United States senator sew discord within the ranks is dangerous for this country, and he ought to back off.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Governor, let me show you another United States senator. Can I see Senator Lugar here? And let me show you what he said to say this Sunday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THIS WEEK")
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, HOST: Senator Lugar, is it time to extend the timeline? Is June 30 just too soon?
SEN. RICHARD LUGAR (R), INDIANA: It may be. And I think it's probably time to have that debate, because, clearly, pragmatically, as we're discussing today, you have the militia that's not been disarmed. And if, in fact, the worst situation comes, the militia begin to fight each other, and that is civil war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: Do you hear? He's saying we ought to put off the June 30 thing. We haven't disarmed the militia or anything else. I mean, what is this? We're all bad Americans because Senator Kennedy says that we don't understand what we're getting ourselves into
(CROSSTALK)
GILMORE: No, Senator Kennedy is playing election-year politics, and that's bad in foreign policy.
Now, listen, this is a big issue that we've got to deal with. It runs all the way across the Middle East. We've got a lot to do here. We don't need that kind of backlash.
NOVAK: Congressman, I would like to remember -- remind everybody that the person who put the United States in Vietnam was a man named John F. Kennedy, who was the senator's brother, just for the historical record.
But I want to show you something that Senator Mitch McConnell, the Senate Republican whip, said. I just want you -- I think -- I've always considered you a very reasonable man, Mr. Wynn. And I want you to...
(LAUGHTER)
WYNN: Here it comes.
NOVAK: I want you to listen to him and say if we can't all reason together. Listen to what Mitch McConnell says.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R), KENTUCKY: I would simply say this, Mr. President, to the senator from Massachusetts, that the only one responsible for the attack on America is al Qaeda. Further, I would say we need to focus on rooting out global terrorism by fighting the terrorists and not each other.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Can you disagree with any of that?
WYNN: I think that's stating the obvious as though it were profound.
CARVILLE: Right.
WYNN: Look, I mean, the fact...
(APPLAUSE)
WYNN: I mean, the fact is, we support our troops. What we question is the leadership they're getting from the Bush administration. We've said all along, there are not enough troops. They're not the right kind of troops. We need more U.N. participation. There are lot of things we can do.
NOVAK: What U.N. participation are you talking about, the French? Do you think the French are going to get in there?
WYNN: I wouldn't specify the French, but I think...
NOVAK: How about the Germans? Do you think the Germans are going to get in there, the Russians?
WYNN: But I think
(CROSSTALK) WYNN: ... have a little more humility and a little more outreach would enable us to have different troops in there other than United States troops, a different face on this conflict. And I think, if we had a different face on this conflict, we might have fewer fatalities.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: When's the last time Senator Kennedy or you attacked al Qaeda instead of George W. Bush?
WYNN: I've attacked al Qaeda for what it's worth.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: I haven't heard you yet.
CARVILLE: What does that got to do with Iraq? Do you know of any connection between al Qaeda and Iraq? No one has been able to produce one. What the hell are we talking about al Qaeda and Iraq for?
WYNN: That's very true.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Governor, let me -- we, today, CNN is reporting that the Shias, which were supposed to be our friends and part of the people that were going to meet us with roses, I think Vice President Cheney said.
(CROSSTALK)
WYNN: The great liberators we would be welcomed as.
CARVILLE: Have now opened an offensive against us. President Bush and Vice President Cheney continually say that escalating violence is a sign of success in Iraq. Do you think they really believe that or do you think they just say that as an election-year spin?
GILMORE: No, I think the challenge this country faces is instability across the entire Middle East, an aggressive type of instability which manifested itself at 9/11.
The president is doing everything he can do to go in and bring to try to bring some democracy, stability, and reasonableness, to get rid of these kinds of dictators that are creating this kind of violence and this kind of bad philosophy, which is an attack, not just on the United States, but the entire Western world. This is going to be a long, hard pull. And what we don't need is people playing election- year politics with this kind of foreign policy.
(APPLAUSE) NOVAK: You know, Congressman Wynn, I'd have to say that you're smiling about this attack going on. You really welcome this breakdown here as a chance to elect John Kerry as president, don't you?
WYNN: That's not the point.
NOVAK: You were smiling and laughing about it.
WYNN: That's not the point. The point is, this is a failure by the Bush administration. It's shortchanging our troops. We have not accomplished our goal. We don't have the stability that you refer to. And that is the real problem. It's nothing to smile about. The point is, this administration...
NOVAK: Well, you were smiling about it. You thought it was fun.
WYNN: The point is this administration's arrogance and incompetence is what's gotten us into this mess. And that's what the Republicans aren't willing to deal with. The public realizes it. Public approval of Bush administration's handling of this situation is declining rapidly. I think it speaks for itself.
CARVILLE: Bob Novak just said...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Bob Novak just said something I agree with, that we have a breakdown in Iraq. Is that sending the wrong signal to our troops, him attacking the administration like that, viciously attacking them, calling this thing a breakdown, when the president and vice president keep insisting what we're doing over there is working brilliantly? Should we call this a breakdown, or is that a bad American that would do something like that?
GILMORE: You know, it's not a matter of criticizing people that want to engage in discussion or in discourse.
But I think that we simply have to recognize that this is going to be a big challenge. It was dangerous before 9/11. It's dangerous now. It was dangerous before Saddam was removed. And it's a situation that's going to take a lot of work, and it's going to take a lot of work beyond Iraq. But one thing we knew for sure, and that was that, as long as we continued to have an aggressive, unstable, dangerous government in Iraq, something had to be done in order to change that situation.
Now, we've done that now, and the people of Iraq are going to benefit from that. But we have a long way to go and a lot more to do, and there's no doubt about it.
NOVAK: OK, we're going to take a break.
Next, in "Rapid Fire," we'll ask our guests why some are saying no to one country who really wants to help in Iraq.
And just ahead, breaking news out of Iraq, bold new attacks on U.S. forces. Wolf Blitzer will bring us the very latest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, we're following a major developing story. Attacks under way right now against U.S. forces in Iraq. Sources here in Washington say this is significant fighting. We're getting more information. We'll bring it to you in a matter of minutes.
A CNN exclusive on the move with U.S. special forces in Afghanistan. What have they come across in the hunt for Osama bin Laden?
A bold move. Retail giant Wal-Mart has big plans for an L.A. suburb, but it's the hands of voters right now.
Those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" -- now back to CROSSFIRE.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: It's time for "Rapid Fire," where we ask questions and answers even faster than the Bush administration can make excuses for the mess they've got us into Iraq.
Our guests are domestic terrorism response commission chairman James Gilmore, the former governor of my state of Virginia, and my dear friend Maryland Democratic Congressman Albert Wynn.
NOVAK: Congressman Wynn, you Democrats want to say we've got to have more foreign troops in there. There is one foreign country ready to put a substantial number of troops in there immediately, Turkey. Would you let the Turks come in there and help us?
WYNN: I think we ought to consider it, but it's a complicated situation.
But the point is, we need other troops, not necessarily just the Turks. We need to bring in other troops from around the world to put an international face on this conflict.
CARVILLE: Governor, regardless of what we think about how we got into this war or the wisdom of the war or anything, would you agree with me that whoever this Shiite cleric is picked on the wrong people when he started to mess with the United States Marine Corps?
GILMORE: Yes, I think that they ought not to try to be doing a rebellion, which could lead to a complete breakdown, which could lead to chaos in Iraq. I don't think that that is good for the people of Iraq. The American military is there to try to bring some stability as we turn over authority back over to the people of Iraq. I think it's a good approach.
It's the right direction. And what's going on right now is going to hurt a lot of people, and it's just bad for everyday people in Iraq.
NOVAK: Congressman, there was one Democratic candidate for president who had a solution to end all U.S. casualties. Dennis Kucinich, running for president, said, let's get the troops out tomorrow, no more casualties. Good idea?
WYNN: Bad idea. We have to stay the course. We just need to do it more intelligently than this administration is doing it.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Thomas White, President Bush's friend and first secretary of the Army, said Robert McNamara, four years of Vietnam going down the toilet, was absolutely convinced with a religious zeal he was doing the right thing. And I think that you have the same thing with Don Rumsfeld talking about Iraq. Do you think Thomas White, former Bush secretary of the Army, is a bad American for comparing Iraq and Robert McNamara and Don Rumsfeld and Iraq?
GILMORE: I think he was making an historic observation. But we've got to deal with the current situation that we're dealing with now. And that means that Iraq is only a part of the overall challenge that we're seeing.
(BELL RINGING)
GILMORE: Not just to the United States, but to Western civilization. We've got to stay the course.
NOVAK: That's the last word. Thank you very much, Governor.
Congressman, thank you.
James Bond is visiting the nation's capital. He's on a mission. We'll tell you what it is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: People come to Washington all the time to promote screwy causes, so nobody should be too surprised to see actor and one-time 007 Sean Connery parading around the city promoting something called Tartan Day.
One day a year, people of Scottish heritage are supposed to wear plaid and pretend they like the squawking of the bagpipes. It's harmless. But if you want a real celebration of scotch, just visit any of Washington's barrooms during happy hour.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Actually, in my hometown and Governor Gilmore's hometown and Governor Warner, the great Democratic current governor of Virginia, every time I turn around, they have some kind of men parading in tartan. We have more Scotch heritage parades than anything in the world.
So, Sean Connery, you need to come to
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... Alexandria and see all the parades there.
NOVAK: Who were you for, the British or the Scots?
CARVILLE: Who was I for, the British or the Scots? I'm for the United Kingdom.
From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak.
Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
