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CNN Crossfire
9/11 Questions Answered?
Aired April 09, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: new questions about a warning President Bush received about Osama bin Laden before September 11.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Threat reporting is: "We believe that something is going to happen here and at this time, under these circumstances." This was not threat reporting.
ANNOUNCER: Also, the 9/11 Commission hears from Former President Clinton and Al Gore about what took place on their watch.
In Iraq, it's a year to the day since the statue came down. But the violence continues, with no end in sight. Is the U.S. any closer to having the situation under control?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Condoleezza Rice had her turn on Capitol Hill before the 9/11 Commission yesterday. And since then, everyone in town has been poring over the record, with Democrats citing what they call a growing list of Condi's contradictions. Did Dr. Rice help her boss? That will be part of our debate today.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: And the other part, of course is Iraq, where in just the last week 42 American troops have died in fighting with both Shiite and Sunni insurgents. Is Iraq falling apart? And more to the point, should we withdraw, with or without honor? Some Democrats have suggested that. We'll debate it.
But first, the best political briefing in television, our "Political Alert."
BEGALA: Former Vice President Al Gore met with the 9/11 Commission today. President Clinton testified yesterday and former Reagan Navy Secretary John Lehman, himself a commissioner, declared that the former president -- quote -- "did very well. He gave us a lot of very helpful insights into things that happened and policy approaches" -- unquote.
Well, President Bush and Vice President Cheney will testify themselves soon, but, unlike Clinton and Gore, Bush and Cheney will testify together. Now, while cute, that will also make it easier...
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: ... for the two amigos to keep their stories straight.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: But, you know, spin control is not the point of this commission. The truth is. And the sad truth is that George W. Bush lacks either the courage or the capacity to stand on his own two feet and answer questions about how and why 3,000 Americans...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: ... were murdered on his watch. And for that reason alone, he ought to be shipped back to Crawford, Texas, where he can be free to spend as much time as he likes holding hands with Dick Cheney.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: So we're anti-gay now.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I guess my question would be, did Bill Clinton explain why his administration turned down three opportunities to pick up Osama bin Laden? And I guess...
BEGALA: Which is not true, by the way.
CARLSON: Actually, it is true. Actually, it is true.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, it's not.
CARLSON: And, second, who cares if Bush is testifying with Cheney? Are you suggesting...
BEGALA: I care.
CARLSON: ... he's lying about 9/11?
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, I'm suggesting that the truth will come out when you interview people separately. That's why everybody else is being interviewed separately.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Hard to believe how it matters.
BEGALA: It lacks courage.
CARLSON: Well, there is no more respected foreign policy thinker on the left than Jimmy Carter, former president, winner of the Nobel Prize, the Democratic Party's living oracle of wisdom about the rest of the world, really a living saint.
And with that in mind, here's what Jimmy Carter said today: Support for Israel is the root of terrorism against America. America's alliance with Israel, Carter said, is -- quote -- "the prime source of animosity toward the United States." Ah-ha. So that is why they hate us. Israel. Of course. Well, at least Carter was bold enough to say out loud what many Democrats privately think.
The question is, does John Kerry agree with this? If not, how specifically would Kerry change the Bush administration's Israel policy? We'll have to guess that because of course Kerry won't say. Does he not know what he thinks or is he just hiding his real reviews? The suspense mounts.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: We don't know what he thinks about anything.
BEGALA: Jimmy Carter at Camp David did more to bring peace to the Middle East than George Bush ever has done in his entire life.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: So do you think Israel -- you're blaming Israel for this?
BEGALA: Second, of course, he's not blaming Israel.
CARLSON: Yes, he is.
BEGALA: But it's a statement of reality. Most -- many Arabs and certainly the Arab radicals that we are fighting hate Israel as much as America. We're doing the right thing by siding with Israel, but it also is coming with a price. That's just stating the obvious.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No, no, but that's not what he said.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's what you just said. That's not what Jimmy Carter said. He said, Israel
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He is not saying we should walk away from Israel, nor for a minute.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Jimmy Carter has always stood for peace in the Middle East. And he does today. That's why he won the Nobel Peace Prize.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: That was very deft, I have to say, though not at all honest.
BEGALA: Well, according to a new report from the General Accounting Office, 60 percent of American corporations paid no taxes whatsoever over a five-year period. Now, in the year 2000, for example, 94 percent of corporations paid less than 5 percent of their total incomes in taxes.
I doubt very few people watching this program are paying at a tax rate of 5 percent or less. And believe it or not, corporate taxes, while pitifully low in the 1990s, have shrunk even further under President Bush. Last year, just 7.4 percent of total federal revenue was from corporate taxes, the lowest rate in two decades. And congressional Republicans, believe it or not, are adding to this by hiding billions of dollars of wasteful corporate loopholes in our very much needed highway bill.
So, where's the Bush administration going to get its money from? Well, guess where? You and me, folks. Audits of corporations have fallen by 26 percent under Mr. Bush, but audits of individuals have increased by 37 percent, more proof, in case you needed it, that, under George W. Bush, corporations get the gold mine, people get the shaft.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Yes, I mean, that makes a nice slogan, Paul. But I...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I wonder why -- how you can get up every single day and accuse the Bush administration of pushing manufacturing jobs abroad. Why do you think jobs go abroad? Because taxes are lower there and there are fewer regulations.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Because health care is more expensive here and there's no national health care system here and there are in these countries overseas. That's a huge
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: So we need national health care here?
BEGALA: Of course, we do. Absolutely.
CARLSON: Because it works so well in Canada.
BEGALA: It works wonderfully in Canada.
CARLSON: That's right. Ask the Europeans. Well, on Wednesday...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's true.
Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia gave a speech to high school students in Mississippi. During the event, a deputy U.S. Marshal named Melanie Rube approached two reporters in the room, reseized their tape recorders and erased their recordings of Scalia's speech. What Rube did was of course outrageous. It was also probably illegal.
Scalia, however, did not ask her to do it. He'll probably be blamed anyway, mostly by people who don't like his politics. But attacking Scalia misses the point. The point is, there are a lot of federal security agents like the aptly named Melanie Rube, swaggering, self-important and rude.
If you've ever been shoved at a political event by a guy with an earpiece, then you know exactly what I mean. It's time to bring these people back to earth. Here's what they need to know. Yes, you have a gun. No, you are not God. Security is important, but it's not more important than the Constitution. Keep that in mind. And, above all, pal, mind your manners.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: How in the world do you get Justice Scalia censoring a speech and you bang on federal
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: He had nothing to do with it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: These are men and women who do not get paid what Justice Scalia gets. They put on a badge and a gun and they risk their lives for you, Tucker Carlson.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Paul, you can try to outshout me, but you're being dishonest. (CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, I want to respond to your attack on law enforcement.
CARLSON: It's not on law enforcement. It's on grabbing a reporter's tape recorder and erasing it. That's outrageous.
BEGALA: Oh, that is outrageous.
CARLSON: I don't know why you would defend that. Then why are you defending it?
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: No, what is outrageous is when you blame federal law enforcement...
CARLSON: No, no.
BEGALA: ... instead of this thug in rug -- in robes on the Supreme Court.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He's the guy who is responsible for it.
CARLSON: Why are you calling him a thug?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Because he stole the election.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: You're insane, Paul.
BEGALA: No, Scalia should be responsible.
CARLSON: Blowing my mind.
Well, we have heard from Condoleezza Rice. And the 9/11 panel has also questioned Bill Clinton and Al Gore. What fun that must have been. Are those investigating the attacks getting the answers they need to prevent another 9/11?
And it's been a year since Saddam's statue was toppled in Baghdad. Has the U.S. made any progress in creating a stable Iraq? We'll debate both of those. We'll be right back.
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to the live Washington audience, call 202-994-8CNN or e-mail us at CNN@gwu.edu. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Dr. Condoleezza Rice's testimony before the 9/11 panel was, in the words of one of the commission members, cool, professional, and statesmanlike. The commissioner also said Dr. Rice had holes in her testimony and left the commission with more questions.
In the CROSSFIRE today to debate all this, Ed Rogers. He is a Republican consultant, worked in the White House under the first President Bush, and Ann Lewis, who worked in the Clinton administration with me and is now the head of the Democratic National Committee's Women's Vote Project.
Thank you both for coming.
ED ROGERS, REPUBLICAN CONSULTANT: Good to be here.
CARLSON: Ann, thanks for coming.
I think the attempt by Democrats to blame 9/11 on Bush actually is going too far and I think it's going to backfire. But it's not even working now. And I want to show you two polls that I think make the point. This is March 26, March 28 CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup. Could the Bush administration have prevented 9/11 from happening? Yes, say 27 percent, all Democrats. No, say 67 percent. This is after Dick Clarke's testimony.
By contrast, same poll, CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup asked, did the Clinton administration do all that could be expected to prevent 9/11? No, say 62 percent. These numbers haven't changed. People think eight years of Clinton vs. eight months of Bush, they hold Clinton more responsible. And they should, shouldn't they?
ANN LEWIS, NATIONAL CHAIR, WOMEN'S VOTE CENTER: Well, actually, the 9/11 Commission is a bipartisan commission.
CARLSON: Of course it is.
LEWIS: I'm glad to see.
It is raising the questions that Americans want answered. And I don't think we know all those answers yet, but I'm really looking forward to the commission report. And I have heard the co-chairs of the commission, again, Republican Governor Tom Kean, Democratic Former Congressman Lee Hamilton, say there were things perhaps that could have been done. But you know what? That's what the commission is about.
So, instead of taking a poll in the middle or even before we hear the -- see the hearings and deciding we know what's happening, let's see what we've learned. I'll tell you, we all learned a great deal yesterday watching Dr. Condoleezza Rice. And I would agree with the comments that she was cool and she was professional, but I'd also agree that her testimony left more questions than answers.
ROGERS: Like what?
BEGALA: Like this. Let me show you -- I'm glad you asked.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: She was cool and confident. She was also mendacious, extraordinarily so.
CARLSON: Oh, come on.
BEGALA: Let me play a piece of tape from Dr. Rice yesterday and show you Dr. Rice misleading the American people. Here's Condoleezza Rice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICE: There really was nothing that looked like it was going to happen inside the United States. There was nothing demonstrating or showing that something was coming in the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Oh? The Republican chaired congressional inquiry into 9/11 reports the following, quoting the Republican committee -- "In May 2001, the intelligence community obtained a report that bin Laden supporters were planning to infiltrate the United States to carry out a terrorist operation using high explosives. The report was included in an intelligence report for senior government officials in August 2001," this from the Republicans on Capitol Hill.
ROGERS: Sure.
BEGALA: Why doesn't Dr. Rice just level with us and tell the truth?
ROGERS: I think Dr. Rice did a great job. She was cool and professional. She laid out the facts.
BEGALA: Well, maybe she doesn't have the facts.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Either he's ignorant or she's misleading us.
ROGERS: You know what it's like in the White House. I know it's like in the White House. There's a threat a day. There's always an assessment coming in that something might happen.
I remember going back as far as 1990, there were all those questions about why haven't there been more terrorist attacks. And the notion, it's just ludicrous, and it's the point we've gotten to -- and this is now politicized -- but it's just ludicrous to suggest that the Bush administration had clear, compelling evidence of a specific threat and didn't do anything about it. It's ridiculous.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: But I'm not suggesting that. What I'm suggesting is that when Dr. Rice said there was nothing demonstrating or showing that something was coming in the United States, she either doesn't have a grasp of the facts, but I give her intellect more credibility more than that, or she's misleading us.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: In everything that come to the commission so far, up until that point, it was just sort of more of the same. There was no specific...
BEGALA: But she didn't say that, Ed. I think you're right.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: She should have just said that.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: She should tell the truth, like you're doing and she would be in a lot better shape.
ROGERS: There was no specific information suggesting there was going to be that type of threat.
CARLSON: OK, now...
ROGERS: Even though the terrorists were already here. And that happened on the Clinton watch.
CARLSON: Ann Lewis, I know that it's a concern of a lot of mainstream Democrats, this lunatic fringe on the left that is really getting crazier by the day, as you know. I want to...
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I'm interested to know your reaction to this.
Yesterday, on an a rival cable network, one of the September 11 widows said, just point blank, we know for a fact that the administration knew about 9/11 before it happened because John Ashcroft was flying on private aircraft then and the people at the Pentagon were flying on private aircraft. This mirrors also precisely something that Howard Dean said during the primaries in which he said the Bush administration may have known about 9/11 ahead of time.
Don't you think mainstream Democrats ought to do more to keep the lunatics under control on their side or won't it hurt you?
LEWIS: I would think that, on both sides, we have people who are going to saying things that are on the fringe. Mainstream Democrats aren't talking that way.
What we're talking about is the point that Paul just made. When George Bush gets a presidential briefing that says Osama bin Laden is determined to strike inside the United States, that's a little different from a threat a day.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I wonder if you were watching
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: When we hear that
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Osama bin Laden said that himself on television on CNN. He said it to Peter Bergen. Were you not watching?
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: And when this comes as a report -- and when this comes as a report from the intelligence services, it gets, I would think, treated a little differently, not that I don't treat CNN very seriously.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But Osama bin Laden said that himself.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: What did Bush stop doing that Clinton was doing?
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: Well, for one thing, he stopped flying the Predator unarmed drone that was giving us the best surveillance information.
ROGERS: We armed it. We armed it.
LEWIS: You didn't -- stop it. You put the Predator down. It did not fly again until after 9/11.
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: So if you really want to know what he stopped
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: ... after it took three pictures of Osama and Clinton took a pass.
LEWIS: You asked what he stopped. That's what he stopped.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: He also stopped something called Operation Catcher's Mitt, which "Music" (ph) magazine has reported was a Clinton-era attempt to try to catch al Qaeda here in our country.
But let me come back to the August 6 president's daily briefing. Dr. Rice again either not following the facts or misleading us called it an historical memo and not a warning at all. But its title was "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside the United States." Now, first off...
ROGERS: But that's a bin Laden quote.
BEGALA: Isn't that a warning? Isn't that a warning?
ROGERS: That's not insight.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's not a historical document.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: Bin Laden has been saying for years he's going to
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: What are you talking about?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Why, when he read that, did George Bush continue the longest presidential vacation in American history? Why didn't he come home and get to work?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ROGERS: Come on. Let's call a truce on the so-called presidential vacations. You know they're not vacations. I know they're not vacations.
BEGALA: They're -- he played golf the next day.
(LAUGHTER)
ROGERS: All right, you know they're not vacations. I know they're not vacations. There's no such thing as a modern president taking a vacation.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: The world doesn't work that way.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... for this segment. We're going to come back in just a second, though. (APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: When we come back, we'll talk about the continuing attacks in Iraq. Is this what our president meant when he stood under the banner that said "Mission Accomplished"? Or perhaps is this is what Dick Cheney meant when he confidently predicted American troops would be greeted as liberators? We'll debate all of that in a moment.
Meanwhile, there's been a rash of kidnappings across Iraq. Just ahead, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on what impact this may be having in other countries around the world.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, one year after the fall of Baghdad, new dangers and a new enemy for the U.S.-led coalition. We'll show you what U.S. forces did today to counter the threat from the renegade cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, and I'll speak about the coalition's concerns. My special guest, the secretary of state, Colin Powell.
A closer look at a chilling new tactic for insurgents in Iraq. How effective is the kidnapping of foreign civilians?
And what was discussed about Osama bin Laden in a crucial presidential briefing in Crawford, Texas, just a month before 9/11? We may soon find out.
Those stories, much more only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Well, there are still battles going on for control in several southern Iraqi cities today and another U.S. soldier was killed in Baghdad when his convoy was attacked. It has been a year since the symbolic taking of Baghdad. Has it been a year of progress? Has it been a year of setbacks?
Back with us in the CROSSFIRE, Ann Lewis of the Democratic National Committee and also Ed Rogers, a Republican consultant.
BEGALA: Ed, Bill Nelson, the senator from Florida, who is one of the hawks in the Democratic Party, he voted for the use of force in Iraq. I think it was a mistake. But he didn't. He thought it was the right thing to go to war here.
But this is what he's saying about what's going on over in Iraq. The secretary of defense yesterday said it kind of was just a flare- up. And here's Bill Nelson's response to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BILL NELSON (D), FLORIDA: This isn't a flare-up. This is a major insurgency that is killing our young men and women. And we'd better come to grips with the fact that we're going to continue to have this problem until we reach out to the rest of the world and bring the world community in to stabilize Iraq. And all of us have the same goal at the end of the day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Now, he's inarguably correct. Why isn't our president getting on Air Force One, going around the world and building international support for America's efforts in Iraq?
ROGERS: I'll acknowledge...
(APPLAUSE)
ROGERS: I'll acknowledge, in the last few weeks, several bad things have happened in Iraq. That doesn't mean everything is going bad in Iraq and that doesn't mean it's time to cut and run.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's not what Senator Nelson
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: There are 25,000 foreign troops now.
BEGALA: And 120,000 Americans.
ROGERS: You're talking about France. You're talking about this fixation that Kerry and the Democrats have on France.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: And if only the French troop were there, somehow we would be better off.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I didn't say
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Neither did Bill Nelson.
ROGERS: Of course not. It's crunch time and it's time to stick with the troops. It's time to stick with what we're doing and see this thing through. There are 25,000
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Stay the course. That's the Republican message.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: No, no, I don't believe that. No, not more of the same. Some things have got to be different, but things are going to be different. We're on the trajectory toward the June 30 handover. The reconstruction is just starting. And Iraqis are really coming back to work. A lot of good is happening in Iraq, independent of the bad events that we've seen over the last few days.
CARLSON: Now, Ann, John Kerry doesn't talk a lot about his views on Iraq policy. Maybe he doesn't have them. Maybe he's hiding them. So when he does talk, we pay close attention here on CROSSFIRE.
Yesterday -- Wednesday, rather, was on NPR. And he had this to say about Muqtada al-Sadr, the virulently anti-American Shia cleric. "It's interesting to hear that when they, the United States, shut a newspaper that belongs to a legitimate voice" -- that would be al-Sadr -- "in Iraq. Hold on, let me change the term legitimate. When they shut a newspaper that belongs to a voice because he has clearly taken on a far more radical tone in recent days and aligned himself with both Hamas and Hezbollah, which is a source of terrorist alignment."
Now, there are so many things wrong with this, I don't know where to begin.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Here are just a few.
Is he legitimate or not? John Kerry isn't exactly sure. Second, it hadn't been in recent days that al-Sadr has taken a radical tone. He's always been radical. And, third, and most interesting, is Hamas, is Hezbollah, is that sort of a terrorist element or is it a terrorist element? Maybe you can tell me.
(APPLAUSE)
LEWIS: Let me be clear. On, Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist groups.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Will you tell John Kerry that, because he's not sure?
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: I don't know why you're having a hard time, because I went on the Web and I found John Kerry's statement from yesterday in which he said, first, what are we going to do about Iraq?
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: No, it was his statement that he gave. (CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But this is when he's actually interview. This is what he says.
(APPLAUSE)
LEWIS: No, this is what he said, because I wanted to get the transcript. I got the text.
CARLSON: Well, this is what he said. Can you respond?
LEWIS: That's right. He said, first, we've got to support the troops. The most important thing we do, he said, this is yesterday, this is John Kerry in Wisconsin, support our troops. They're there. They need our full support and we've got to be united.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, of course.
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: Secondly, we've got to do -- when he says something you agree with, you don't want to talk about it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Who disagrees with supporting -- that's like being for the children. Everyone is for that. Come on.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: The second thing he said was, we've got to maximize our chances to succeed in Iraq. And that means, as
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: ... bringing in other nations.
ROGERS: Get France.
LEWIS: No, that does not mean only France.
ROGERS: Who?
LEWIS: And, by the way, it means working with the United Nations, which this administration is finally trying to do.
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: Well, see, that's the point.
ROGERS: No. LEWIS: Here's our policy. On Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, we insult and sneer at the United Nations.
CARLSON: I do it all week long.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
LEWIS: And then on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, we come along and
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: On Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, we come back and say, guys, can you help us out here?
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: Back to Kerry's statement.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: What Kerry said shows he's a not-ready-for-prime-time player.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... your message, don't worry about it.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: The bad news is, he's not in prime-time right now because of world events.
BEGALA: Your message is, stay the course.
ROGERS: No, that's not my message. I made it clear. It's not.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: The Bush handling of Iraq, the majority of Americans now
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: OK, but you don't want to bring in international troops.
ROGERS: Sure we do. There's 25,000 now. How many more should we have? If 25,000 is not the right number, what's the right number?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Old man Bush got 100,000 Arab troops when he fought in the Gulf. And that was probably the right thing to do.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: With you sneer at old man Bush now? I think he was right.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: Is that the Kerry policy, to get 25,000? If 25,000 isn't the right number...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Certainly, 100, 200. Let the world deal with the problem. Bush created it and now our guys are dying. And I don't like it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I think we're coming very much closer to a number of Arab troops.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But, unfortunately, before we can settle on it, we're out of time.
Ed Rogers, Ann Lewis, I'm sorry. We're being told that they're going to fade to black in just a moment. Thanks a lot very much.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Up next, it is "Fireback." One of our viewers says that President Bush ought to take a little advice from Donald Trump. We'll tell you what that is in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to our Good Friday edition of CROSSFIRE.
Time now for "Fireback," where we let the viewers fire back at us. Hence, the name.
John Hanno in Oak Lawn, Illinois, writes: "President Bush should take a page from the Donald Trump book of personal responsibility. He should call Condi Rice into the boardroom and after listening to her lame excuses and denial of accountability, say very clearly, you're fired."
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: I think we should do that to Bush, actually. I don't blame...
CARLSON: I think there are some people in the administration who ought to be fired. I'm not sure she's one of them.
BEGALA: George is, though. He is, isn't he, Mr. President?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Bill from Summerville, South Carolina writes: "If Mr. Clarke" -- that would be Mr. Dick Clarke, not the announcer, but the former national security aide -- "was so concerned about what the White House personnel were doing, why didn't he resign and go public at that time? It would have been the ethical and moral thing to do, rather than wait until his book was released" -- yes, but less profitable.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, he should have written a book then.
CARLSON: He left a year ago. And if he felt like they were endangering out security, he should have said so.
BEGALA: He told the truth to the American people. God bless him for doing it.
From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us again next week for yet more CROSSFIRE. Have a terrific Easter.
(APPLAUSE)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired April 9, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: new questions about a warning President Bush received about Osama bin Laden before September 11.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Threat reporting is: "We believe that something is going to happen here and at this time, under these circumstances." This was not threat reporting.
ANNOUNCER: Also, the 9/11 Commission hears from Former President Clinton and Al Gore about what took place on their watch.
In Iraq, it's a year to the day since the statue came down. But the violence continues, with no end in sight. Is the U.S. any closer to having the situation under control?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Condoleezza Rice had her turn on Capitol Hill before the 9/11 Commission yesterday. And since then, everyone in town has been poring over the record, with Democrats citing what they call a growing list of Condi's contradictions. Did Dr. Rice help her boss? That will be part of our debate today.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: And the other part, of course is Iraq, where in just the last week 42 American troops have died in fighting with both Shiite and Sunni insurgents. Is Iraq falling apart? And more to the point, should we withdraw, with or without honor? Some Democrats have suggested that. We'll debate it.
But first, the best political briefing in television, our "Political Alert."
BEGALA: Former Vice President Al Gore met with the 9/11 Commission today. President Clinton testified yesterday and former Reagan Navy Secretary John Lehman, himself a commissioner, declared that the former president -- quote -- "did very well. He gave us a lot of very helpful insights into things that happened and policy approaches" -- unquote.
Well, President Bush and Vice President Cheney will testify themselves soon, but, unlike Clinton and Gore, Bush and Cheney will testify together. Now, while cute, that will also make it easier...
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: ... for the two amigos to keep their stories straight.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: But, you know, spin control is not the point of this commission. The truth is. And the sad truth is that George W. Bush lacks either the courage or the capacity to stand on his own two feet and answer questions about how and why 3,000 Americans...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: ... were murdered on his watch. And for that reason alone, he ought to be shipped back to Crawford, Texas, where he can be free to spend as much time as he likes holding hands with Dick Cheney.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: So we're anti-gay now.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I guess my question would be, did Bill Clinton explain why his administration turned down three opportunities to pick up Osama bin Laden? And I guess...
BEGALA: Which is not true, by the way.
CARLSON: Actually, it is true. Actually, it is true.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, it's not.
CARLSON: And, second, who cares if Bush is testifying with Cheney? Are you suggesting...
BEGALA: I care.
CARLSON: ... he's lying about 9/11?
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, I'm suggesting that the truth will come out when you interview people separately. That's why everybody else is being interviewed separately.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Hard to believe how it matters.
BEGALA: It lacks courage.
CARLSON: Well, there is no more respected foreign policy thinker on the left than Jimmy Carter, former president, winner of the Nobel Prize, the Democratic Party's living oracle of wisdom about the rest of the world, really a living saint.
And with that in mind, here's what Jimmy Carter said today: Support for Israel is the root of terrorism against America. America's alliance with Israel, Carter said, is -- quote -- "the prime source of animosity toward the United States." Ah-ha. So that is why they hate us. Israel. Of course. Well, at least Carter was bold enough to say out loud what many Democrats privately think.
The question is, does John Kerry agree with this? If not, how specifically would Kerry change the Bush administration's Israel policy? We'll have to guess that because of course Kerry won't say. Does he not know what he thinks or is he just hiding his real reviews? The suspense mounts.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: We don't know what he thinks about anything.
BEGALA: Jimmy Carter at Camp David did more to bring peace to the Middle East than George Bush ever has done in his entire life.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: So do you think Israel -- you're blaming Israel for this?
BEGALA: Second, of course, he's not blaming Israel.
CARLSON: Yes, he is.
BEGALA: But it's a statement of reality. Most -- many Arabs and certainly the Arab radicals that we are fighting hate Israel as much as America. We're doing the right thing by siding with Israel, but it also is coming with a price. That's just stating the obvious.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No, no, but that's not what he said.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's what you just said. That's not what Jimmy Carter said. He said, Israel
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He is not saying we should walk away from Israel, nor for a minute.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Jimmy Carter has always stood for peace in the Middle East. And he does today. That's why he won the Nobel Peace Prize.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: That was very deft, I have to say, though not at all honest.
BEGALA: Well, according to a new report from the General Accounting Office, 60 percent of American corporations paid no taxes whatsoever over a five-year period. Now, in the year 2000, for example, 94 percent of corporations paid less than 5 percent of their total incomes in taxes.
I doubt very few people watching this program are paying at a tax rate of 5 percent or less. And believe it or not, corporate taxes, while pitifully low in the 1990s, have shrunk even further under President Bush. Last year, just 7.4 percent of total federal revenue was from corporate taxes, the lowest rate in two decades. And congressional Republicans, believe it or not, are adding to this by hiding billions of dollars of wasteful corporate loopholes in our very much needed highway bill.
So, where's the Bush administration going to get its money from? Well, guess where? You and me, folks. Audits of corporations have fallen by 26 percent under Mr. Bush, but audits of individuals have increased by 37 percent, more proof, in case you needed it, that, under George W. Bush, corporations get the gold mine, people get the shaft.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Yes, I mean, that makes a nice slogan, Paul. But I...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I wonder why -- how you can get up every single day and accuse the Bush administration of pushing manufacturing jobs abroad. Why do you think jobs go abroad? Because taxes are lower there and there are fewer regulations.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Because health care is more expensive here and there's no national health care system here and there are in these countries overseas. That's a huge
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: So we need national health care here?
BEGALA: Of course, we do. Absolutely.
CARLSON: Because it works so well in Canada.
BEGALA: It works wonderfully in Canada.
CARLSON: That's right. Ask the Europeans. Well, on Wednesday...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's true.
Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia gave a speech to high school students in Mississippi. During the event, a deputy U.S. Marshal named Melanie Rube approached two reporters in the room, reseized their tape recorders and erased their recordings of Scalia's speech. What Rube did was of course outrageous. It was also probably illegal.
Scalia, however, did not ask her to do it. He'll probably be blamed anyway, mostly by people who don't like his politics. But attacking Scalia misses the point. The point is, there are a lot of federal security agents like the aptly named Melanie Rube, swaggering, self-important and rude.
If you've ever been shoved at a political event by a guy with an earpiece, then you know exactly what I mean. It's time to bring these people back to earth. Here's what they need to know. Yes, you have a gun. No, you are not God. Security is important, but it's not more important than the Constitution. Keep that in mind. And, above all, pal, mind your manners.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: How in the world do you get Justice Scalia censoring a speech and you bang on federal
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: He had nothing to do with it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: These are men and women who do not get paid what Justice Scalia gets. They put on a badge and a gun and they risk their lives for you, Tucker Carlson.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Paul, you can try to outshout me, but you're being dishonest. (CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, I want to respond to your attack on law enforcement.
CARLSON: It's not on law enforcement. It's on grabbing a reporter's tape recorder and erasing it. That's outrageous.
BEGALA: Oh, that is outrageous.
CARLSON: I don't know why you would defend that. Then why are you defending it?
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: No, what is outrageous is when you blame federal law enforcement...
CARLSON: No, no.
BEGALA: ... instead of this thug in rug -- in robes on the Supreme Court.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He's the guy who is responsible for it.
CARLSON: Why are you calling him a thug?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Because he stole the election.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: You're insane, Paul.
BEGALA: No, Scalia should be responsible.
CARLSON: Blowing my mind.
Well, we have heard from Condoleezza Rice. And the 9/11 panel has also questioned Bill Clinton and Al Gore. What fun that must have been. Are those investigating the attacks getting the answers they need to prevent another 9/11?
And it's been a year since Saddam's statue was toppled in Baghdad. Has the U.S. made any progress in creating a stable Iraq? We'll debate both of those. We'll be right back.
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to the live Washington audience, call 202-994-8CNN or e-mail us at CNN@gwu.edu. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Dr. Condoleezza Rice's testimony before the 9/11 panel was, in the words of one of the commission members, cool, professional, and statesmanlike. The commissioner also said Dr. Rice had holes in her testimony and left the commission with more questions.
In the CROSSFIRE today to debate all this, Ed Rogers. He is a Republican consultant, worked in the White House under the first President Bush, and Ann Lewis, who worked in the Clinton administration with me and is now the head of the Democratic National Committee's Women's Vote Project.
Thank you both for coming.
ED ROGERS, REPUBLICAN CONSULTANT: Good to be here.
CARLSON: Ann, thanks for coming.
I think the attempt by Democrats to blame 9/11 on Bush actually is going too far and I think it's going to backfire. But it's not even working now. And I want to show you two polls that I think make the point. This is March 26, March 28 CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup. Could the Bush administration have prevented 9/11 from happening? Yes, say 27 percent, all Democrats. No, say 67 percent. This is after Dick Clarke's testimony.
By contrast, same poll, CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup asked, did the Clinton administration do all that could be expected to prevent 9/11? No, say 62 percent. These numbers haven't changed. People think eight years of Clinton vs. eight months of Bush, they hold Clinton more responsible. And they should, shouldn't they?
ANN LEWIS, NATIONAL CHAIR, WOMEN'S VOTE CENTER: Well, actually, the 9/11 Commission is a bipartisan commission.
CARLSON: Of course it is.
LEWIS: I'm glad to see.
It is raising the questions that Americans want answered. And I don't think we know all those answers yet, but I'm really looking forward to the commission report. And I have heard the co-chairs of the commission, again, Republican Governor Tom Kean, Democratic Former Congressman Lee Hamilton, say there were things perhaps that could have been done. But you know what? That's what the commission is about.
So, instead of taking a poll in the middle or even before we hear the -- see the hearings and deciding we know what's happening, let's see what we've learned. I'll tell you, we all learned a great deal yesterday watching Dr. Condoleezza Rice. And I would agree with the comments that she was cool and she was professional, but I'd also agree that her testimony left more questions than answers.
ROGERS: Like what?
BEGALA: Like this. Let me show you -- I'm glad you asked.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: She was cool and confident. She was also mendacious, extraordinarily so.
CARLSON: Oh, come on.
BEGALA: Let me play a piece of tape from Dr. Rice yesterday and show you Dr. Rice misleading the American people. Here's Condoleezza Rice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICE: There really was nothing that looked like it was going to happen inside the United States. There was nothing demonstrating or showing that something was coming in the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Oh? The Republican chaired congressional inquiry into 9/11 reports the following, quoting the Republican committee -- "In May 2001, the intelligence community obtained a report that bin Laden supporters were planning to infiltrate the United States to carry out a terrorist operation using high explosives. The report was included in an intelligence report for senior government officials in August 2001," this from the Republicans on Capitol Hill.
ROGERS: Sure.
BEGALA: Why doesn't Dr. Rice just level with us and tell the truth?
ROGERS: I think Dr. Rice did a great job. She was cool and professional. She laid out the facts.
BEGALA: Well, maybe she doesn't have the facts.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Either he's ignorant or she's misleading us.
ROGERS: You know what it's like in the White House. I know it's like in the White House. There's a threat a day. There's always an assessment coming in that something might happen.
I remember going back as far as 1990, there were all those questions about why haven't there been more terrorist attacks. And the notion, it's just ludicrous, and it's the point we've gotten to -- and this is now politicized -- but it's just ludicrous to suggest that the Bush administration had clear, compelling evidence of a specific threat and didn't do anything about it. It's ridiculous.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: But I'm not suggesting that. What I'm suggesting is that when Dr. Rice said there was nothing demonstrating or showing that something was coming in the United States, she either doesn't have a grasp of the facts, but I give her intellect more credibility more than that, or she's misleading us.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: In everything that come to the commission so far, up until that point, it was just sort of more of the same. There was no specific...
BEGALA: But she didn't say that, Ed. I think you're right.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: She should have just said that.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: She should tell the truth, like you're doing and she would be in a lot better shape.
ROGERS: There was no specific information suggesting there was going to be that type of threat.
CARLSON: OK, now...
ROGERS: Even though the terrorists were already here. And that happened on the Clinton watch.
CARLSON: Ann Lewis, I know that it's a concern of a lot of mainstream Democrats, this lunatic fringe on the left that is really getting crazier by the day, as you know. I want to...
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I'm interested to know your reaction to this.
Yesterday, on an a rival cable network, one of the September 11 widows said, just point blank, we know for a fact that the administration knew about 9/11 before it happened because John Ashcroft was flying on private aircraft then and the people at the Pentagon were flying on private aircraft. This mirrors also precisely something that Howard Dean said during the primaries in which he said the Bush administration may have known about 9/11 ahead of time.
Don't you think mainstream Democrats ought to do more to keep the lunatics under control on their side or won't it hurt you?
LEWIS: I would think that, on both sides, we have people who are going to saying things that are on the fringe. Mainstream Democrats aren't talking that way.
What we're talking about is the point that Paul just made. When George Bush gets a presidential briefing that says Osama bin Laden is determined to strike inside the United States, that's a little different from a threat a day.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I wonder if you were watching
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: When we hear that
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Osama bin Laden said that himself on television on CNN. He said it to Peter Bergen. Were you not watching?
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: And when this comes as a report -- and when this comes as a report from the intelligence services, it gets, I would think, treated a little differently, not that I don't treat CNN very seriously.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But Osama bin Laden said that himself.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: What did Bush stop doing that Clinton was doing?
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: Well, for one thing, he stopped flying the Predator unarmed drone that was giving us the best surveillance information.
ROGERS: We armed it. We armed it.
LEWIS: You didn't -- stop it. You put the Predator down. It did not fly again until after 9/11.
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: So if you really want to know what he stopped
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: ... after it took three pictures of Osama and Clinton took a pass.
LEWIS: You asked what he stopped. That's what he stopped.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: He also stopped something called Operation Catcher's Mitt, which "Music" (ph) magazine has reported was a Clinton-era attempt to try to catch al Qaeda here in our country.
But let me come back to the August 6 president's daily briefing. Dr. Rice again either not following the facts or misleading us called it an historical memo and not a warning at all. But its title was "Bin Laden Determined to Attack Inside the United States." Now, first off...
ROGERS: But that's a bin Laden quote.
BEGALA: Isn't that a warning? Isn't that a warning?
ROGERS: That's not insight.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's not a historical document.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: Bin Laden has been saying for years he's going to
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: What are you talking about?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Why, when he read that, did George Bush continue the longest presidential vacation in American history? Why didn't he come home and get to work?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ROGERS: Come on. Let's call a truce on the so-called presidential vacations. You know they're not vacations. I know they're not vacations.
BEGALA: They're -- he played golf the next day.
(LAUGHTER)
ROGERS: All right, you know they're not vacations. I know they're not vacations. There's no such thing as a modern president taking a vacation.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: The world doesn't work that way.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... for this segment. We're going to come back in just a second, though. (APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: When we come back, we'll talk about the continuing attacks in Iraq. Is this what our president meant when he stood under the banner that said "Mission Accomplished"? Or perhaps is this is what Dick Cheney meant when he confidently predicted American troops would be greeted as liberators? We'll debate all of that in a moment.
Meanwhile, there's been a rash of kidnappings across Iraq. Just ahead, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on what impact this may be having in other countries around the world.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, one year after the fall of Baghdad, new dangers and a new enemy for the U.S.-led coalition. We'll show you what U.S. forces did today to counter the threat from the renegade cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, and I'll speak about the coalition's concerns. My special guest, the secretary of state, Colin Powell.
A closer look at a chilling new tactic for insurgents in Iraq. How effective is the kidnapping of foreign civilians?
And what was discussed about Osama bin Laden in a crucial presidential briefing in Crawford, Texas, just a month before 9/11? We may soon find out.
Those stories, much more only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Well, there are still battles going on for control in several southern Iraqi cities today and another U.S. soldier was killed in Baghdad when his convoy was attacked. It has been a year since the symbolic taking of Baghdad. Has it been a year of progress? Has it been a year of setbacks?
Back with us in the CROSSFIRE, Ann Lewis of the Democratic National Committee and also Ed Rogers, a Republican consultant.
BEGALA: Ed, Bill Nelson, the senator from Florida, who is one of the hawks in the Democratic Party, he voted for the use of force in Iraq. I think it was a mistake. But he didn't. He thought it was the right thing to go to war here.
But this is what he's saying about what's going on over in Iraq. The secretary of defense yesterday said it kind of was just a flare- up. And here's Bill Nelson's response to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BILL NELSON (D), FLORIDA: This isn't a flare-up. This is a major insurgency that is killing our young men and women. And we'd better come to grips with the fact that we're going to continue to have this problem until we reach out to the rest of the world and bring the world community in to stabilize Iraq. And all of us have the same goal at the end of the day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Now, he's inarguably correct. Why isn't our president getting on Air Force One, going around the world and building international support for America's efforts in Iraq?
ROGERS: I'll acknowledge...
(APPLAUSE)
ROGERS: I'll acknowledge, in the last few weeks, several bad things have happened in Iraq. That doesn't mean everything is going bad in Iraq and that doesn't mean it's time to cut and run.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's not what Senator Nelson
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: There are 25,000 foreign troops now.
BEGALA: And 120,000 Americans.
ROGERS: You're talking about France. You're talking about this fixation that Kerry and the Democrats have on France.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: And if only the French troop were there, somehow we would be better off.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I didn't say
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Neither did Bill Nelson.
ROGERS: Of course not. It's crunch time and it's time to stick with the troops. It's time to stick with what we're doing and see this thing through. There are 25,000
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Stay the course. That's the Republican message.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: No, no, I don't believe that. No, not more of the same. Some things have got to be different, but things are going to be different. We're on the trajectory toward the June 30 handover. The reconstruction is just starting. And Iraqis are really coming back to work. A lot of good is happening in Iraq, independent of the bad events that we've seen over the last few days.
CARLSON: Now, Ann, John Kerry doesn't talk a lot about his views on Iraq policy. Maybe he doesn't have them. Maybe he's hiding them. So when he does talk, we pay close attention here on CROSSFIRE.
Yesterday -- Wednesday, rather, was on NPR. And he had this to say about Muqtada al-Sadr, the virulently anti-American Shia cleric. "It's interesting to hear that when they, the United States, shut a newspaper that belongs to a legitimate voice" -- that would be al-Sadr -- "in Iraq. Hold on, let me change the term legitimate. When they shut a newspaper that belongs to a voice because he has clearly taken on a far more radical tone in recent days and aligned himself with both Hamas and Hezbollah, which is a source of terrorist alignment."
Now, there are so many things wrong with this, I don't know where to begin.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Here are just a few.
Is he legitimate or not? John Kerry isn't exactly sure. Second, it hadn't been in recent days that al-Sadr has taken a radical tone. He's always been radical. And, third, and most interesting, is Hamas, is Hezbollah, is that sort of a terrorist element or is it a terrorist element? Maybe you can tell me.
(APPLAUSE)
LEWIS: Let me be clear. On, Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist groups.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Will you tell John Kerry that, because he's not sure?
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: I don't know why you're having a hard time, because I went on the Web and I found John Kerry's statement from yesterday in which he said, first, what are we going to do about Iraq?
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: No, it was his statement that he gave. (CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But this is when he's actually interview. This is what he says.
(APPLAUSE)
LEWIS: No, this is what he said, because I wanted to get the transcript. I got the text.
CARLSON: Well, this is what he said. Can you respond?
LEWIS: That's right. He said, first, we've got to support the troops. The most important thing we do, he said, this is yesterday, this is John Kerry in Wisconsin, support our troops. They're there. They need our full support and we've got to be united.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, of course.
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: Secondly, we've got to do -- when he says something you agree with, you don't want to talk about it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Who disagrees with supporting -- that's like being for the children. Everyone is for that. Come on.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: The second thing he said was, we've got to maximize our chances to succeed in Iraq. And that means, as
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: ... bringing in other nations.
ROGERS: Get France.
LEWIS: No, that does not mean only France.
ROGERS: Who?
LEWIS: And, by the way, it means working with the United Nations, which this administration is finally trying to do.
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: Well, see, that's the point.
ROGERS: No. LEWIS: Here's our policy. On Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, we insult and sneer at the United Nations.
CARLSON: I do it all week long.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
LEWIS: And then on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, we come along and
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: On Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, we come back and say, guys, can you help us out here?
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: Back to Kerry's statement.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: What Kerry said shows he's a not-ready-for-prime-time player.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... your message, don't worry about it.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: The bad news is, he's not in prime-time right now because of world events.
BEGALA: Your message is, stay the course.
ROGERS: No, that's not my message. I made it clear. It's not.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: The Bush handling of Iraq, the majority of Americans now
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: OK, but you don't want to bring in international troops.
ROGERS: Sure we do. There's 25,000 now. How many more should we have? If 25,000 is not the right number, what's the right number?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Old man Bush got 100,000 Arab troops when he fought in the Gulf. And that was probably the right thing to do.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: With you sneer at old man Bush now? I think he was right.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: Is that the Kerry policy, to get 25,000? If 25,000 isn't the right number...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Certainly, 100, 200. Let the world deal with the problem. Bush created it and now our guys are dying. And I don't like it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I think we're coming very much closer to a number of Arab troops.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But, unfortunately, before we can settle on it, we're out of time.
Ed Rogers, Ann Lewis, I'm sorry. We're being told that they're going to fade to black in just a moment. Thanks a lot very much.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Up next, it is "Fireback." One of our viewers says that President Bush ought to take a little advice from Donald Trump. We'll tell you what that is in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to our Good Friday edition of CROSSFIRE.
Time now for "Fireback," where we let the viewers fire back at us. Hence, the name.
John Hanno in Oak Lawn, Illinois, writes: "President Bush should take a page from the Donald Trump book of personal responsibility. He should call Condi Rice into the boardroom and after listening to her lame excuses and denial of accountability, say very clearly, you're fired."
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: I think we should do that to Bush, actually. I don't blame...
CARLSON: I think there are some people in the administration who ought to be fired. I'm not sure she's one of them.
BEGALA: George is, though. He is, isn't he, Mr. President?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Bill from Summerville, South Carolina writes: "If Mr. Clarke" -- that would be Mr. Dick Clarke, not the announcer, but the former national security aide -- "was so concerned about what the White House personnel were doing, why didn't he resign and go public at that time? It would have been the ethical and moral thing to do, rather than wait until his book was released" -- yes, but less profitable.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, he should have written a book then.
CARLSON: He left a year ago. And if he felt like they were endangering out security, he should have said so.
BEGALA: He told the truth to the American people. God bless him for doing it.
From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Join us again next week for yet more CROSSFIRE. Have a terrific Easter.
(APPLAUSE)
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