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CNN Crossfire
Will Same-Sex Marriage Laws Impact Presidential Election?
Aired May 17, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE:
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I now pronounce that you are married under the laws of Massachusetts.
ANNOUNCER: For the first time in U.S. history, legal same-sex marriages are taking place today and they're taking place in John Kerry's home state.
What impact will this issue have on the presidential debate? And how will the Kerry and Bush campaigns handle it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I tell my son, when history calls, you answer. And we love each other.
(LAUGHTER)
ANNOUNCER: Plus, your e-mail has landed about Bob Novak's big jump.
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Bulletin from the cultural war: America just became the fifth country in the world where homosexuals can get married, at least they can in Massachusetts, the Massachusetts of John Kerry and Teddy Kennedy. Same-sex marriage is now legal in the Bay State, an issue that could haunt Senator Kerry at the Democratic Convention in Boston.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: But, Bob, with jobs being shipped overseas, with health care costs out of control, with Iraq in chaos, why is our president attacking gays when he ought to be attacking problems? We will debate the pros and cons of gay marriage and how the issue may play out in the race for the White House, but first the best little political briefing in television, our "Political Alert."
Well, the Bush administration's line that prisoner abuse scandal began and ended with the acts of a few renegade prison guards is like all stonewalls crumbling. "Newsweek" magazine reports in today's issue that a secret White House memo argued strongly that some protections of the Geneva Convention are -- quote -- "quaint" and -- quote -- "obsolete" -- unquote.
Rather than blessing just a few urgent exemptions to get information from so call ticking time bombs, the White House seemed to be contemplating a rollback of decades-old protections that America has always stood for. Meanwhile, Seymour Hersh of "The New Yorker" reports that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld personally and secretly approved applying tough interrogation tactics on Iraqi prisoners. They had previously only been used on al Qaeda terrorists.
The Pentagon calls Mr. Hersh's report -- quote -- "outlandish" -- unquote. And the Senate Armed Services Committee, led by the respected Republican Chairman John Warner, plans to investigate.
NOVAK: I think it's a good idea to investigate that. I think we agree on that.
You know what's interesting? When Sy Hersh and his terrific book "The Dark Side of Camelot" was investigating all the scandals about John F. Kennedy, you liberals were just saying he operates without attributed sources. You can't trust him.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: It depends who he's investigating, doesn't it?
BEGALA: I just like, the Pentagon said "outlandish," which does not mean untrue. It just means outlandish. They didn't say it was untrue.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Teamsters president Jim Hoffa is urging John Kerry to pick Hoffa's pal, Congressman Dick Gephardt, for vice president. Kerry-Gephardt, a balanced ticket. Kerry's for free trade. Gephardt's against it. Gephardt's for middle class tax increases. Kerry's against them. Gephardt's for funding the war in Iraq. Kerry voted against it.
But Democrats want an even more balanced ticket with Republican John McCain as Kerry's running mate. McCain is pro-life, pro-tort reform, anti-gay marriage, pro-Iraq war, just the opposite of Kerry. The problem is that on NBC's "Meet the Press" yesterday, McCain kept saying no, no, no to a Kerry-McCain balanced ticket. Is there a message that Democrats are desperate for a vice president who doesn't sound much like John Kerry?
BEGALA: No, that's not...
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: That's media speculation, Bob.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: That's all just silly.
I admire John McCain. I used to work for Dick Gephardt, as you know, years ago, and love and admire Dick. The truth is, John Kerry's going to pick the person he thinks could best run the country if, God forbid, something happens, because John Kerry is going to be the president of the United States in about six months.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: That's who he should pick.
NOVAK: It's more than -- it's more than maybe just speculation, Paul.
Joe Biden said it would be really good idea if they had John McCain.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, I think Joe Biden would be great on the ticket as well. But I'm not picking preferences. I think they would all be great. But Kerry is going to win, mark my words.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, while much of the world is riveted by the pictures of the smoking car bomb that killed Iraqi Governing Council President Izzadine Saleem, much of Washington is riveted instead by footage of a palm tree peacefully swaying in the breeze.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIM RUSSERT, HOST: In February 2003, you placed your enormous personal credibility...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: The shot appeared on "Meet the Press With Tim Russert" yesterday when a Bush administration turned NBC's camera off of Secretary of State Colin Powell to try to stop him from answering a question from Mr. Russert about how the Bush administration misled you and your fellow Americans before taking to us war in Iraq. It seems like the Bush strategy is, if you can't beat them, censor them.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You know, Paul, listening to you, nobody would know that Secretary Powell ordered the camera back on.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Well, let me say what I'm going to say. A woman named Emily, a third-ranking hack at the State Department, not a Bush administration official, did it.
Secretary Powell said, Emily, get out of the way. And then he said when he was questioned that, yes, he was concerned by an informant's information about weapons of mass destruction which was incorrect.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: So why don't you tell the truth?
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Everything I said was the truth. The NBC camera was turned away by a Bush administration
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Because they don't want the truth to come out.
NOVAK: They put it back on. It was a State Department official.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: A former Tom DeLay aide named Emily Miller.
NOVAK: A long time ago, Jerry Springer was the liberal mayor of Cincinnati with an unlimited future in the Democratic Party. Things started to go south when he paid a prostitute with a personal check. Defining deviance down, Jerry ended up making millions as host of the super-raunchy Jerry Springer show, the bottom of trash television.
Springer is trying to get back in politics and he's just been named an at-large delegate representing the whole state of Ohio at the Democratic National Convention. That's not all. A recent party dinner Columbus named Jerry Democrat of the year. No wonder the Democrats haven't won a major election in Ohio in ages.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, tell me, Bob, I'm glad -- it's easy to trash Jerry Springer. He hosts a trashy television show.
But, by the way, did he run Halliburton or trade with Iraq and Iran and Syria, the way Dick Cheney did? Did he lie to the American people about a war, the way President Bush did? Did he say there was weapons of mass destruction? I'll take Jerry Springer over this crowd that's running the White House any day of the week, Bob.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Would you name had him Democrat -- would you name had him Democrat of the year?
BEGALA: Oh, that's for the people of Ohio. I think he's great that he's a delegate.
NOVAK: No, I'm asking you. What do you mean, that's the people of Ohio?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I don't know who other Democrats in Ohio are. I think it's great that he's coming to our convention, Bob. I welcome him.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: And I want him to come on CROSSFIRE.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm not an Ohio delegate.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Read my lips.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You're a television guy. Answer the question. Answer the question.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: You know what? He never lied about a war. He didn't send 135,000 kids to be shot at over in Iraq.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's a hell of a lot better than running a trashy show, Bob Novak.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, Massachusetts says I do to gay marriage, an issue that evokes very strong feelings. But will it really become a factor in the race for presidency? We will debate that in a moment.
And then, you know, there have been a few times, like about 10 seconds ago, when I wanted to tell my pal Novak to go take a flying leap. Guess what? Last Friday, he did. You will hear what our fellow viewers have to say about all of this later on.
Stay with us. (APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: CROSSFIRE.
The Commonwealth of Massachusetts today began issuing marriage licenses for same-sex couples. President Bush took time today to issue a statement reiterating his call for a constitutional statement banning same-sex marriage. It is, for those of you keeping score at home, the seventh constitutional amendment Mr. Bush has endorsed, joining school prayer, banning abortion, flag burning, crime victims bill of rights, line item veto, and just to prove he has a sense of humor, a balanced budget amendment.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Is our president playing politics with our Constitution?
In the CROSSFIRE today, Tony Perkins -- he's the president and director of the Family Research Council -- and Cheryl Jacques. She is the president and executive director of the Human Rights Campaign.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Ms. Jacques, Senator Kerry says he is for a constitutional amendment in Massachusetts banning same-sex marriage. He's against a federal constitution. So, if that is confusing, let's listen to what he says on the whole question of same-sex marriage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's not my job to start, you know, parcelling out advice or saying things to people who make a decision that's very personal like that. My position is clear. And you've heard it many times in the course of this campaign. I personally believe that marriage is between a man and a woman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Do you understand his position?
CHERYL JACQUES, PRESIDENT & EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN Oh, sure I do.
Senator Kerry has been very, very clear that he is opposed to discrimination, that he is opposed to using the United States' Constitution as a political football.
NOVAK: But he would use the state Constitution.
JACQUES: And writing discrimination into this.
What Senator Kerry has said is, let's treat people equally. Let's give them equal benefits and protections. And he's looked for a vehicle in Massachusetts to find a way to do that. I don't agree with him, by the way. I think marriage is that vehicle. But he's looking for a vehicle for full equality and fair treatment. And good for him.
NOVAK: So this whole thing, you can buy that, huh?
(CROSSTALK)
JACQUES: I don't agree with him, but I'm glad that he's talking about equality. What President Bush is talking about is discrimination.
BEGALA: Well, but that's just recent.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Let me defend President Bush for a minute.
That's just new. That's just since he started falling in the polls, Tony, because his running mate, Dick Cheney, was a strong supporter of equal rights for gays in married life. Here's what Vice President Cheney said about this before he was vice president and he was debating Joe Lieberman for that job. He actually came in second in the election. But they gave it to him anyway. Here's what Dick Cheney said about this issue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think that means that people should be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want to enter into. It's really no one else's business in terms of trying to regulate or prohibit behavior in that regard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: People should be free. It's really no one else's business. That's the best argument I've heard against a constitutional amendment on this. Why is Dick Cheney wrong, Tony?
TONY PERKINS, PRESIDENT, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: Well, I think what we have here is, we have a radical public policy change that's being thrust upon us by four unelected judges in one state.
BEGALA: And Dick Cheney among them.
PERKINS: Dick Cheney said during the campaign that he felt like people are free to enter into relationships that they want. And I think most Americans would say they're free to. Bob and Bill can live together, but, you know, 2 percent of the population does not have the right to redefine marriage for the other 98 percent of America.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: I said, tell me why Dick Cheney is wrong. The question was about Mr. Cheney. PERKINS: He stated that in the campaign, but he has since said that he supports the president.
BEGALA: Oh, he's flip-flopped.
PERKINS: Well...
BEGALA: Cheney has flip-flopped. I thought flip-flopping was terrible.
NOVAK: Ms. Jacques, the American people are closely divide on many issues, such as Kerry and Bush. Here's an issue they're not divided on. Should gay marriages be legally recognized? Let's see what it is. It's yes, 32 percent, no 60 percent. That's a new poll just taken by the -- for CNN and "TIME" magazine.
So what you're saying is that you don't really care what the American people think. If those four judges in Massachusetts say, go ahead, we go ahead.
JACQUES: No, no, not at all, Bob.
And, in fact, 60 percent of Massachusetts residents actually support gay marriage. So maybe we should defer to Massachusetts residents in their own state.
(APPLAUSE)
JACQUES: And you know what? If we had looked at those same poll numbers after the ban on interracial marriage passed, they would have been just as bad. The country grows. They country changes. And the country learns to stop discriminating.
NOVAK: I'd like to see your figures on that 60 percent.
(APPLAUSE)
JACQUES: Happy to give to give that to. Happy to.
NOVAK: In Massachusetts, because I don't believe
(CROSSTALK)
JACQUES: Rock solid. I'll get that to you today.
NOVAK: All right.
BEGALA: Mr. Perkins, one of those Massachusetts is also a congressman from there, Barney Frank, the first openly gay member of the United States Congress.
He actually had a rather interesting take on this. And I want to share it with you. Here's what Barney Frank, Congressman Frank, told "The Boston Globe" on Saturday: "What people are looking at is health care in Iraq being for America a disaster in many ways and the overall economy still seeing an erosion of wages. So I don't think gay marriage is a hot-button issue for most people. To the extent the White House tries to make it a big issue," Mr. Frank says, "when it has handover problems in Iraq on June 30, people may look at the president and say, well, I'm not for gay marriage either, but isn't there something better to do with your time?"
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Don't you think he's right?
PERKINS: When you look at the fact that 38 states on their own initiative have either passed DOMAs, Defense of Marriage Acts, or constitutional amendments, another six states will have constitutional amendments on the ballot this fall defining marriage as being between a man and woman, this is not being driven by the Bush administration or even by Washington, D.C.
This is being driven by people across America who understand the value of marriage as it has historically and traditionally been defined between a man and woman. They understand that children need a mom and a dad. And public policy such as this would destroy the family and leave children in a very damaging place.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Ms. Jacques, you refer to this as a civil rights issue. You refer to this as a civil rights issue.
But I'd like you to listen to a dissenting view on that, whether it's a civil rights issue, by Bishop -- Roman Catholic Bishop Paul Morton of New Orleans. Listen to what he has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BISHOP PAUL MORTON, NEW ORLEANS: This is not a civil rights issue. You insult...
(APPLAUSE)
MORTON: You insult African Americans when you say this is a civil rights issue, because -- and I want you to understand this today and how important this is today -- I can't change the color of my skin. But you can change your lifestyle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: What's your response to that?
JACQUES: And I can't change my sexual orientation.
But you know what? The NAACP, Coretta Scott King, Congressman John Lewis, the oldest living survivor of the March on Washington, all greatly disagree with that man, that it is a battle against discrimination and it has the same theme as any other civil rights battle. And that is one group trying to oppress and marginalize and take away benefits and protections and rights from other people.
And that's always wrong, whether it's about race, religion, skin color. Whatever it is, it's wrong.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: The bishop raises an interesting question. Do you believe God makes us gay or straight or it's a choice?
PERKINS: I believe it's a choice that people make.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I never actually sat down and chose, but maybe you did. Maybe others did. Let me ask you, there are some choices that are so important to our identities, we protect them in law. CNN cannot fire me because I choose to be a Christian or a Roman Catholic. They cannot. It's enshrined into law. Why shouldn't people who choose to fall in love have that protection that I have to choose to be a Christian or Roman Catholic?
(APPLAUSE)
PERKINS: Paul, if we're going to go down the path of civil rights and say this is a civil right that two consenting adults have a right to marry, regardless of their gender, how do you draw the line at two consenting adults? You've departed from 5,000 years of human history. Why then could we not have polyamorous issues? If this is truly a civil rights issue, they have a right to do that, too, if that's their orientation and lifestyle.
BEGALA: But the question was about why people make certain choices. Why shouldn't a choice between two gay people be enshrined the same my choice to be a Christian is?
PERKINS: There are people who make choices to -- they're attracted to multiple partners. They want to live in polyamorous relationships.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: So you would allow it for two, then, but draw the line at three or more.
PERKINS: No, I draw it at a man and a woman, because I have history on our side.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, history discriminated against Catholics in this country.
NOVAK: That will have to be the last word. Thank you very much, Mr. Perkins. Ms. Jacques, thank you very much.
JACQUES: A pleasure.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: When we come back, we'll talk with one of the couples who actually were issued a marriage license in Massachusetts today.
And what if those attacking U.S. troops in Iraq have access to sarin gas? Wolf Blitzer has the latest on that possibility right after this break.
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to CROSSFIRE at the George Washington University, call 202-994-8CNN or visit our Web site. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, a car bomb in Baghdad kills a top Iraqi leader and key U.S. ally. Plus, possible traces of chemical weapons uncovered in Iraq.
Same-sex couples marry legally for the first time in U.S. history, but not everyone is celebrating in Massachusetts.
And the low-carb craze, is it really the best way to lose weight? New information out in the coming hour that may surprise all of us.
Those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: The liberals got what they wanted in Massachusetts, same- sex marriage legalized by state judges.
We have a couple here who took advantage of that today. Valerie and Jacqueline Feinstein-Zachary have just applied to get married. They're at City Hall in Boston.
BEGALA: Ladies, it's good to see you. Thank you very much for joining us.
Now, Valerie, if I may start with you.
VALERIE FEINSTEIN-ZACHARY, APPLIED FOR SAME-SEX MARRIAGE LICENSE: Yes.
BEGALA: Have you had any time to undermine any straight marriages yet, and what is your plan to destroy the American family?
(LAUGHTER)
V. FEINSTEIN-ZACHARY: Well, actually, it's been a wonderful day and we're just so happy to be here in Boston. It's wonderful that Massachusetts has taken a stand against discrimination and in favor of equality for all.
NOVAK: Jacqueline, you were married by a rabbi many years ago. And you've been living together for many years. And yet you got up early to stand in line. This is just a political stunt, isn't it, since you already are living as a married couple? Why did you have to do this?
JACQUELINE FEIN-ZACHARY, APPLIED FOR SAME-SEX MARRIAGE LICENSE: Well, today is an absolute joyous day, different from any other in Massachusetts, because, today, committed gay and lesbian couples celebrate all the rights and benefits that only come through marriage. And we're very excited about that.
BEGALA: But, Valerie, if I may, let me ask you, it's already having a powerful effect on me. I think I'm leaving my wife and throwing myself into Novak's arms.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Aren't you worried about the damage you're doing to America's families? It's only been a few hours and I'm already turning gay.
V. FEINSTEIN-ZACHARY: Well, I'm sorry. I don't think so.
I think tomorrow and next week and throughout the coming months, that really everyone is going to get up and send their kids off to school and go to work, come home, watch a movie or catch a ball game.
BEGALA: Oh, because they don't have to sit across a desk from this sexy beast. I'm sorry.
(LAUGHTER)
FEINSTEIN-ZACHARY: The only thing that will be different is that gay and lesbian families will have the rights and protections that they need to live their lives more securely.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Jacqueline, you could have gotten that protection, couldn't you, with a civil unions without interfering and offending a lot of people who believe marriage is between a man and woman, including Senator Kerry?
J. FEIN-ZACHARY: No, I don't think so.
I think -- actually, we had a civil union but it didn't give us any advantages whatsoever. It's only good in Vermont. We want all the rights and protections that are portable that can take us throughout the United States, especially here in Massachusetts. Senator Kerry will learn that.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Valerie, on a more serious note, what has been the reaction from friends, family and co-workers?
V. FEIN-ZACHARY: Well, actually, even though we had a wedding nine years ago with our rabbi, my mother called me a few weeks ago and said that she wanted to come and watch the rabbi now sign our marriage license. So we actually changed our plans so that we're having a luncheon with our families now, which is a little bit different.
This means a lot, not just to Jackie and I, but to our families as well. So it's absolutely a joyous occasion. And we ask people to think back to their own weddings and their own personal lives. And it's really -- what we're doing is sharing in that joy and sharing it with you today.
BEGALA: Well, thank you for doing that. Valerie and Jacqueline Fein-Zachary, thank you for joining us from Boston, where they just got their marriage license. God bless.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: And when we return, it seems as though everybody in America has an opinion about Bob Novak's leap of faith. We'll let you fire away at my colleague for his courage or foolishness. We'll let you decide next.
Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
If you were with us back on Friday -- and admit it, you were -- you saw my colleague Bob Novak in this position, his first ever parachute jump. He had an opportunity to jump with the U.S. Army's elite Golden Knights Parachute Team at the ripe young age of 73.
Bob's decision to take the plunge prompted mounds of e-mail from you all.
And let's begin with Kenneth from Hamilton, Ohio, Kenneth Brockman, who writes: "I was wondering if Novak was emulating George Bush Sr. when he jumped out of that plane."
Bob, were you?
NOVAK: No, I -- he bailed out when the Japs shot him down in -- 19 years old. I didn't have that thrill.
BEGALA: Well, Billy J. Rose Sr. of Salyersville, Kentucky, writes: "Mr. Novak, I am a retired U.S. Air Force master sergeant and a red, white and blue-blooded Democrat. As much as you irritate me on CROSSFIRE, I must tell you, I gained more respect for you. I would never think of jumping." Well, so you made a convert there, Bob. Congratulations.
From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired May 17, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE:
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I now pronounce that you are married under the laws of Massachusetts.
ANNOUNCER: For the first time in U.S. history, legal same-sex marriages are taking place today and they're taking place in John Kerry's home state.
What impact will this issue have on the presidential debate? And how will the Kerry and Bush campaigns handle it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I tell my son, when history calls, you answer. And we love each other.
(LAUGHTER)
ANNOUNCER: Plus, your e-mail has landed about Bob Novak's big jump.
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Bulletin from the cultural war: America just became the fifth country in the world where homosexuals can get married, at least they can in Massachusetts, the Massachusetts of John Kerry and Teddy Kennedy. Same-sex marriage is now legal in the Bay State, an issue that could haunt Senator Kerry at the Democratic Convention in Boston.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: But, Bob, with jobs being shipped overseas, with health care costs out of control, with Iraq in chaos, why is our president attacking gays when he ought to be attacking problems? We will debate the pros and cons of gay marriage and how the issue may play out in the race for the White House, but first the best little political briefing in television, our "Political Alert."
Well, the Bush administration's line that prisoner abuse scandal began and ended with the acts of a few renegade prison guards is like all stonewalls crumbling. "Newsweek" magazine reports in today's issue that a secret White House memo argued strongly that some protections of the Geneva Convention are -- quote -- "quaint" and -- quote -- "obsolete" -- unquote.
Rather than blessing just a few urgent exemptions to get information from so call ticking time bombs, the White House seemed to be contemplating a rollback of decades-old protections that America has always stood for. Meanwhile, Seymour Hersh of "The New Yorker" reports that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld personally and secretly approved applying tough interrogation tactics on Iraqi prisoners. They had previously only been used on al Qaeda terrorists.
The Pentagon calls Mr. Hersh's report -- quote -- "outlandish" -- unquote. And the Senate Armed Services Committee, led by the respected Republican Chairman John Warner, plans to investigate.
NOVAK: I think it's a good idea to investigate that. I think we agree on that.
You know what's interesting? When Sy Hersh and his terrific book "The Dark Side of Camelot" was investigating all the scandals about John F. Kennedy, you liberals were just saying he operates without attributed sources. You can't trust him.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: It depends who he's investigating, doesn't it?
BEGALA: I just like, the Pentagon said "outlandish," which does not mean untrue. It just means outlandish. They didn't say it was untrue.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Teamsters president Jim Hoffa is urging John Kerry to pick Hoffa's pal, Congressman Dick Gephardt, for vice president. Kerry-Gephardt, a balanced ticket. Kerry's for free trade. Gephardt's against it. Gephardt's for middle class tax increases. Kerry's against them. Gephardt's for funding the war in Iraq. Kerry voted against it.
But Democrats want an even more balanced ticket with Republican John McCain as Kerry's running mate. McCain is pro-life, pro-tort reform, anti-gay marriage, pro-Iraq war, just the opposite of Kerry. The problem is that on NBC's "Meet the Press" yesterday, McCain kept saying no, no, no to a Kerry-McCain balanced ticket. Is there a message that Democrats are desperate for a vice president who doesn't sound much like John Kerry?
BEGALA: No, that's not...
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: That's media speculation, Bob.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: That's all just silly.
I admire John McCain. I used to work for Dick Gephardt, as you know, years ago, and love and admire Dick. The truth is, John Kerry's going to pick the person he thinks could best run the country if, God forbid, something happens, because John Kerry is going to be the president of the United States in about six months.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: That's who he should pick.
NOVAK: It's more than -- it's more than maybe just speculation, Paul.
Joe Biden said it would be really good idea if they had John McCain.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, I think Joe Biden would be great on the ticket as well. But I'm not picking preferences. I think they would all be great. But Kerry is going to win, mark my words.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, while much of the world is riveted by the pictures of the smoking car bomb that killed Iraqi Governing Council President Izzadine Saleem, much of Washington is riveted instead by footage of a palm tree peacefully swaying in the breeze.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIM RUSSERT, HOST: In February 2003, you placed your enormous personal credibility...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: The shot appeared on "Meet the Press With Tim Russert" yesterday when a Bush administration turned NBC's camera off of Secretary of State Colin Powell to try to stop him from answering a question from Mr. Russert about how the Bush administration misled you and your fellow Americans before taking to us war in Iraq. It seems like the Bush strategy is, if you can't beat them, censor them.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You know, Paul, listening to you, nobody would know that Secretary Powell ordered the camera back on.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Well, let me say what I'm going to say. A woman named Emily, a third-ranking hack at the State Department, not a Bush administration official, did it.
Secretary Powell said, Emily, get out of the way. And then he said when he was questioned that, yes, he was concerned by an informant's information about weapons of mass destruction which was incorrect.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: So why don't you tell the truth?
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Everything I said was the truth. The NBC camera was turned away by a Bush administration
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Because they don't want the truth to come out.
NOVAK: They put it back on. It was a State Department official.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: A former Tom DeLay aide named Emily Miller.
NOVAK: A long time ago, Jerry Springer was the liberal mayor of Cincinnati with an unlimited future in the Democratic Party. Things started to go south when he paid a prostitute with a personal check. Defining deviance down, Jerry ended up making millions as host of the super-raunchy Jerry Springer show, the bottom of trash television.
Springer is trying to get back in politics and he's just been named an at-large delegate representing the whole state of Ohio at the Democratic National Convention. That's not all. A recent party dinner Columbus named Jerry Democrat of the year. No wonder the Democrats haven't won a major election in Ohio in ages.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, tell me, Bob, I'm glad -- it's easy to trash Jerry Springer. He hosts a trashy television show.
But, by the way, did he run Halliburton or trade with Iraq and Iran and Syria, the way Dick Cheney did? Did he lie to the American people about a war, the way President Bush did? Did he say there was weapons of mass destruction? I'll take Jerry Springer over this crowd that's running the White House any day of the week, Bob.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Would you name had him Democrat -- would you name had him Democrat of the year?
BEGALA: Oh, that's for the people of Ohio. I think he's great that he's a delegate.
NOVAK: No, I'm asking you. What do you mean, that's the people of Ohio?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I don't know who other Democrats in Ohio are. I think it's great that he's coming to our convention, Bob. I welcome him.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: And I want him to come on CROSSFIRE.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm not an Ohio delegate.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Read my lips.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You're a television guy. Answer the question. Answer the question.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: You know what? He never lied about a war. He didn't send 135,000 kids to be shot at over in Iraq.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's a hell of a lot better than running a trashy show, Bob Novak.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, Massachusetts says I do to gay marriage, an issue that evokes very strong feelings. But will it really become a factor in the race for presidency? We will debate that in a moment.
And then, you know, there have been a few times, like about 10 seconds ago, when I wanted to tell my pal Novak to go take a flying leap. Guess what? Last Friday, he did. You will hear what our fellow viewers have to say about all of this later on.
Stay with us. (APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: CROSSFIRE.
The Commonwealth of Massachusetts today began issuing marriage licenses for same-sex couples. President Bush took time today to issue a statement reiterating his call for a constitutional statement banning same-sex marriage. It is, for those of you keeping score at home, the seventh constitutional amendment Mr. Bush has endorsed, joining school prayer, banning abortion, flag burning, crime victims bill of rights, line item veto, and just to prove he has a sense of humor, a balanced budget amendment.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Is our president playing politics with our Constitution?
In the CROSSFIRE today, Tony Perkins -- he's the president and director of the Family Research Council -- and Cheryl Jacques. She is the president and executive director of the Human Rights Campaign.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Ms. Jacques, Senator Kerry says he is for a constitutional amendment in Massachusetts banning same-sex marriage. He's against a federal constitution. So, if that is confusing, let's listen to what he says on the whole question of same-sex marriage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's not my job to start, you know, parcelling out advice or saying things to people who make a decision that's very personal like that. My position is clear. And you've heard it many times in the course of this campaign. I personally believe that marriage is between a man and a woman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Do you understand his position?
CHERYL JACQUES, PRESIDENT & EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN Oh, sure I do.
Senator Kerry has been very, very clear that he is opposed to discrimination, that he is opposed to using the United States' Constitution as a political football.
NOVAK: But he would use the state Constitution.
JACQUES: And writing discrimination into this.
What Senator Kerry has said is, let's treat people equally. Let's give them equal benefits and protections. And he's looked for a vehicle in Massachusetts to find a way to do that. I don't agree with him, by the way. I think marriage is that vehicle. But he's looking for a vehicle for full equality and fair treatment. And good for him.
NOVAK: So this whole thing, you can buy that, huh?
(CROSSTALK)
JACQUES: I don't agree with him, but I'm glad that he's talking about equality. What President Bush is talking about is discrimination.
BEGALA: Well, but that's just recent.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Let me defend President Bush for a minute.
That's just new. That's just since he started falling in the polls, Tony, because his running mate, Dick Cheney, was a strong supporter of equal rights for gays in married life. Here's what Vice President Cheney said about this before he was vice president and he was debating Joe Lieberman for that job. He actually came in second in the election. But they gave it to him anyway. Here's what Dick Cheney said about this issue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think that means that people should be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want to enter into. It's really no one else's business in terms of trying to regulate or prohibit behavior in that regard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: People should be free. It's really no one else's business. That's the best argument I've heard against a constitutional amendment on this. Why is Dick Cheney wrong, Tony?
TONY PERKINS, PRESIDENT, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: Well, I think what we have here is, we have a radical public policy change that's being thrust upon us by four unelected judges in one state.
BEGALA: And Dick Cheney among them.
PERKINS: Dick Cheney said during the campaign that he felt like people are free to enter into relationships that they want. And I think most Americans would say they're free to. Bob and Bill can live together, but, you know, 2 percent of the population does not have the right to redefine marriage for the other 98 percent of America.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: I said, tell me why Dick Cheney is wrong. The question was about Mr. Cheney. PERKINS: He stated that in the campaign, but he has since said that he supports the president.
BEGALA: Oh, he's flip-flopped.
PERKINS: Well...
BEGALA: Cheney has flip-flopped. I thought flip-flopping was terrible.
NOVAK: Ms. Jacques, the American people are closely divide on many issues, such as Kerry and Bush. Here's an issue they're not divided on. Should gay marriages be legally recognized? Let's see what it is. It's yes, 32 percent, no 60 percent. That's a new poll just taken by the -- for CNN and "TIME" magazine.
So what you're saying is that you don't really care what the American people think. If those four judges in Massachusetts say, go ahead, we go ahead.
JACQUES: No, no, not at all, Bob.
And, in fact, 60 percent of Massachusetts residents actually support gay marriage. So maybe we should defer to Massachusetts residents in their own state.
(APPLAUSE)
JACQUES: And you know what? If we had looked at those same poll numbers after the ban on interracial marriage passed, they would have been just as bad. The country grows. They country changes. And the country learns to stop discriminating.
NOVAK: I'd like to see your figures on that 60 percent.
(APPLAUSE)
JACQUES: Happy to give to give that to. Happy to.
NOVAK: In Massachusetts, because I don't believe
(CROSSTALK)
JACQUES: Rock solid. I'll get that to you today.
NOVAK: All right.
BEGALA: Mr. Perkins, one of those Massachusetts is also a congressman from there, Barney Frank, the first openly gay member of the United States Congress.
He actually had a rather interesting take on this. And I want to share it with you. Here's what Barney Frank, Congressman Frank, told "The Boston Globe" on Saturday: "What people are looking at is health care in Iraq being for America a disaster in many ways and the overall economy still seeing an erosion of wages. So I don't think gay marriage is a hot-button issue for most people. To the extent the White House tries to make it a big issue," Mr. Frank says, "when it has handover problems in Iraq on June 30, people may look at the president and say, well, I'm not for gay marriage either, but isn't there something better to do with your time?"
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Don't you think he's right?
PERKINS: When you look at the fact that 38 states on their own initiative have either passed DOMAs, Defense of Marriage Acts, or constitutional amendments, another six states will have constitutional amendments on the ballot this fall defining marriage as being between a man and woman, this is not being driven by the Bush administration or even by Washington, D.C.
This is being driven by people across America who understand the value of marriage as it has historically and traditionally been defined between a man and woman. They understand that children need a mom and a dad. And public policy such as this would destroy the family and leave children in a very damaging place.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Ms. Jacques, you refer to this as a civil rights issue. You refer to this as a civil rights issue.
But I'd like you to listen to a dissenting view on that, whether it's a civil rights issue, by Bishop -- Roman Catholic Bishop Paul Morton of New Orleans. Listen to what he has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BISHOP PAUL MORTON, NEW ORLEANS: This is not a civil rights issue. You insult...
(APPLAUSE)
MORTON: You insult African Americans when you say this is a civil rights issue, because -- and I want you to understand this today and how important this is today -- I can't change the color of my skin. But you can change your lifestyle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: What's your response to that?
JACQUES: And I can't change my sexual orientation.
But you know what? The NAACP, Coretta Scott King, Congressman John Lewis, the oldest living survivor of the March on Washington, all greatly disagree with that man, that it is a battle against discrimination and it has the same theme as any other civil rights battle. And that is one group trying to oppress and marginalize and take away benefits and protections and rights from other people.
And that's always wrong, whether it's about race, religion, skin color. Whatever it is, it's wrong.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: The bishop raises an interesting question. Do you believe God makes us gay or straight or it's a choice?
PERKINS: I believe it's a choice that people make.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I never actually sat down and chose, but maybe you did. Maybe others did. Let me ask you, there are some choices that are so important to our identities, we protect them in law. CNN cannot fire me because I choose to be a Christian or a Roman Catholic. They cannot. It's enshrined into law. Why shouldn't people who choose to fall in love have that protection that I have to choose to be a Christian or Roman Catholic?
(APPLAUSE)
PERKINS: Paul, if we're going to go down the path of civil rights and say this is a civil right that two consenting adults have a right to marry, regardless of their gender, how do you draw the line at two consenting adults? You've departed from 5,000 years of human history. Why then could we not have polyamorous issues? If this is truly a civil rights issue, they have a right to do that, too, if that's their orientation and lifestyle.
BEGALA: But the question was about why people make certain choices. Why shouldn't a choice between two gay people be enshrined the same my choice to be a Christian is?
PERKINS: There are people who make choices to -- they're attracted to multiple partners. They want to live in polyamorous relationships.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: So you would allow it for two, then, but draw the line at three or more.
PERKINS: No, I draw it at a man and a woman, because I have history on our side.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, history discriminated against Catholics in this country.
NOVAK: That will have to be the last word. Thank you very much, Mr. Perkins. Ms. Jacques, thank you very much.
JACQUES: A pleasure.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: When we come back, we'll talk with one of the couples who actually were issued a marriage license in Massachusetts today.
And what if those attacking U.S. troops in Iraq have access to sarin gas? Wolf Blitzer has the latest on that possibility right after this break.
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to CROSSFIRE at the George Washington University, call 202-994-8CNN or visit our Web site. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, a car bomb in Baghdad kills a top Iraqi leader and key U.S. ally. Plus, possible traces of chemical weapons uncovered in Iraq.
Same-sex couples marry legally for the first time in U.S. history, but not everyone is celebrating in Massachusetts.
And the low-carb craze, is it really the best way to lose weight? New information out in the coming hour that may surprise all of us.
Those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: The liberals got what they wanted in Massachusetts, same- sex marriage legalized by state judges.
We have a couple here who took advantage of that today. Valerie and Jacqueline Feinstein-Zachary have just applied to get married. They're at City Hall in Boston.
BEGALA: Ladies, it's good to see you. Thank you very much for joining us.
Now, Valerie, if I may start with you.
VALERIE FEINSTEIN-ZACHARY, APPLIED FOR SAME-SEX MARRIAGE LICENSE: Yes.
BEGALA: Have you had any time to undermine any straight marriages yet, and what is your plan to destroy the American family?
(LAUGHTER)
V. FEINSTEIN-ZACHARY: Well, actually, it's been a wonderful day and we're just so happy to be here in Boston. It's wonderful that Massachusetts has taken a stand against discrimination and in favor of equality for all.
NOVAK: Jacqueline, you were married by a rabbi many years ago. And you've been living together for many years. And yet you got up early to stand in line. This is just a political stunt, isn't it, since you already are living as a married couple? Why did you have to do this?
JACQUELINE FEIN-ZACHARY, APPLIED FOR SAME-SEX MARRIAGE LICENSE: Well, today is an absolute joyous day, different from any other in Massachusetts, because, today, committed gay and lesbian couples celebrate all the rights and benefits that only come through marriage. And we're very excited about that.
BEGALA: But, Valerie, if I may, let me ask you, it's already having a powerful effect on me. I think I'm leaving my wife and throwing myself into Novak's arms.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Aren't you worried about the damage you're doing to America's families? It's only been a few hours and I'm already turning gay.
V. FEINSTEIN-ZACHARY: Well, I'm sorry. I don't think so.
I think tomorrow and next week and throughout the coming months, that really everyone is going to get up and send their kids off to school and go to work, come home, watch a movie or catch a ball game.
BEGALA: Oh, because they don't have to sit across a desk from this sexy beast. I'm sorry.
(LAUGHTER)
FEINSTEIN-ZACHARY: The only thing that will be different is that gay and lesbian families will have the rights and protections that they need to live their lives more securely.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Jacqueline, you could have gotten that protection, couldn't you, with a civil unions without interfering and offending a lot of people who believe marriage is between a man and woman, including Senator Kerry?
J. FEIN-ZACHARY: No, I don't think so.
I think -- actually, we had a civil union but it didn't give us any advantages whatsoever. It's only good in Vermont. We want all the rights and protections that are portable that can take us throughout the United States, especially here in Massachusetts. Senator Kerry will learn that.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Valerie, on a more serious note, what has been the reaction from friends, family and co-workers?
V. FEIN-ZACHARY: Well, actually, even though we had a wedding nine years ago with our rabbi, my mother called me a few weeks ago and said that she wanted to come and watch the rabbi now sign our marriage license. So we actually changed our plans so that we're having a luncheon with our families now, which is a little bit different.
This means a lot, not just to Jackie and I, but to our families as well. So it's absolutely a joyous occasion. And we ask people to think back to their own weddings and their own personal lives. And it's really -- what we're doing is sharing in that joy and sharing it with you today.
BEGALA: Well, thank you for doing that. Valerie and Jacqueline Fein-Zachary, thank you for joining us from Boston, where they just got their marriage license. God bless.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: And when we return, it seems as though everybody in America has an opinion about Bob Novak's leap of faith. We'll let you fire away at my colleague for his courage or foolishness. We'll let you decide next.
Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
If you were with us back on Friday -- and admit it, you were -- you saw my colleague Bob Novak in this position, his first ever parachute jump. He had an opportunity to jump with the U.S. Army's elite Golden Knights Parachute Team at the ripe young age of 73.
Bob's decision to take the plunge prompted mounds of e-mail from you all.
And let's begin with Kenneth from Hamilton, Ohio, Kenneth Brockman, who writes: "I was wondering if Novak was emulating George Bush Sr. when he jumped out of that plane."
Bob, were you?
NOVAK: No, I -- he bailed out when the Japs shot him down in -- 19 years old. I didn't have that thrill.
BEGALA: Well, Billy J. Rose Sr. of Salyersville, Kentucky, writes: "Mr. Novak, I am a retired U.S. Air Force master sergeant and a red, white and blue-blooded Democrat. As much as you irritate me on CROSSFIRE, I must tell you, I gained more respect for you. I would never think of jumping." Well, so you made a convert there, Bob. Congratulations.
From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
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