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CNN Crossfire
Political Battlefront
Aired May 21, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: more evidence of prisoner abuse in Iraq and fallout from a raid on former Pentagon favorite Ahmad Chalabi's compound. When will the Bush administration get some good news out of Iraq?
And John Kerry may not accept his nomination at the Democratic Party's convention in July. Find out what impact all this may have on the campaign -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: More bad -- more bad news out of Iraq for President Bush, including new images of abuse of Iraqi prisoners. And in a prime-time speech, Bush plans to tell the world about his clear strategy, whatever that is, for Iraq. Who is he kidding?
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Also, surprise, surprise, John Kerry doesn't believe in campaign finance reform after all. Kerry may delay his acceptance of the Democratic presidential nomination in July so he can spend more of the money he raised during the primaries, something he couldn't do if he accepted the nomination.
More from the political battlefront just ahead, but, first, the best political little briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Earlier this week, John Kerry and Ralph Nader sat down for a 70- minute meeting. Almost immediately after, the Kerry campaign announced that neither of the men had mentioned a single word about Iraq. Now, this seemed pretty strange. Iraq, after all, is the only point of real contention between Kerry and Nader. Kerry -- Nader says he would bring American troops within six months.
Kerry, of course, supports the Bush "stay the course" plan. So why wouldn't the two have talked about this? Well, according to Nader, they did talk about it at some length, which means that one of these guys is lying. Could it be Ralph Nader, the pro-hemp third- party maverick who says precisely what he thinks, no matter how politically unpopular it may be? Or could it be Kerry who is lying? We'll let you decide.
CARVILLE: Well, first of all, they don't have the same position. John Kerry has articulated a clear position.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: What of them is lying, James.
CARVILLE: President Bush's position is -- no, nobody is lying. Somebody in the campaign said they didn't.
CARLSON: That's actually not true.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: It's sad. It's a ridiculous....
CARLSON: This is the dumbest thing I've ever seen the Kerry campaign do, because what they...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... going down, son. It's sad to see you boys going down, down, down.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: The Kerry campaign is trying to get Nader to shut up.
CARVILLE: Going down.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: And by pretending and by telling tales about how he never mentioned Iraq, it keeps him in the news for another day.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: The Kerry campaign said something. Kerry didn't say it. Kerry's plan is much better than Bush's. He has a plan to get us out of Iraq.
It took longer than...
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: It took longer than it should have, but the Pentagon has stopped paying millions of dollars to one of the masterminds of the debacle in Iraq.
Since 2000, Ahmad Chalabi, the once favored Iraqi in the Bush administration, has been paid $33 million, $33 million. For that fee, he managed to convince Vice President Cheney that invading American soldiers would be treated as liberators with roses, by the way, would be showered with sweets and flowers. Then he embarrassed us around the world by providing misleading and erroneous information about weapons of mass destruction.
It looks like House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi was right about this. The administration really doesn't have a clue.
CARLSON: Chalabi, whatever his many problems was, talked a very pro-American game. And to conservatives, that's appealing, believe it or not, James. This guy could be a leader of Iraq who is pro- American.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Why was he giving out secrets to Iran?
CARLSON: Well, it turns out that the guy was a double-dealer. But I will say
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You conservatives are naive.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... buffoons.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: The idea that this guy was arrested or hassled in Iraq yesterday, that his place was broken into or run into by all these American soldiers, when there are anti-American figures in Iraq totally unmolested, I do think is odd.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: We should leave this thief alone?
CARLSON: I'm not sure if we should leave him alone, but why aren't we going after Muqtada al-Sadr first?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Why did we pay him $33 million and then go looking for money in his house? He's probably got our money in there, our taxpayers' money.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: He was paid to run an intelligence service, which
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, you may remember Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney. She was the left-wing Georgia Democrat who lost her seat a couple of years ago after she accused the president of the United States of being part of the September 11 terrorist plot. Later, her chief political adviser blamed her defeat on -- quote -- "the Jews."
Well, McKinney used to be considered an embarrassment to her party, but not anymore. Yesterday, the Georgia AFL-CIO, the state's largest labor union, endorsed Cynthia McKinney's bid to win back her old congressional seat. The head of the union explained that McKinney has been consistently pro-labor. He did not mention that she is a foaming conspiracy theorist. He may not even have noticed that because McKinney is no longer the only Democrat to accuse the president of murder.
These days, she's only one of many. McKinney's views have not changed. They have just become part of the Democratic mainstream.
Your party is going insane, James. And you know that that's true.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: My party is completely
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: If there's one way that George W. Bush could win this election, it's because his opponents are actually crazy.
CARVILLE: You know what? You know what? Cynthia McKinney, who represents of Indiana, lost her seat in the Democratic primary.
CARLSON: She's been endorsed by the AFL-CIO, James.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You know what? Democrats in her district voted her out. Son, get over it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Get over it. We've got a deficit for $10 trillion. We're stuck in Iraq. And you're talking about Cynthia McKinney.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You can't focus on the big issues.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You're worried about Cynthia McKinney. We're worried about bringing America back and making...
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: They are going down.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm not even going to argue with
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: I don't know what you mean by they. I don't work for the campaign.
CARVILLE: Down, down, down, all you.
President Bush is setting a record for negative commercials and negative campaigns, maybe because he has no accomplishments other than having us stuck in Iraq, hated around the world and broke at home.
CARLSON: Oh, get real.
CARVILLE: Well, he's at it again. The Bush campaign is set to launch another negative ad in their little sea of negativity, this one criticizing John Kerry's stance on the so-called Patriot Act. This is the last gasp of a dying regime that's accomplished nothing.
President Bush would do better to exit gracefully rather than drowning in a sea of negativity.
CARLSON: Oh, James.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Down, down.
CARLSON: I have to say -- I have to say...
CARVILLE: Down.
CARLSON: When I listen to you -- when I listen to you speak, I'm not quite sure what you're saying because I can't really understand you.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... interrupt. I never interrupt you.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK) CARLSON: When I listen to you speak, I think, whatever that guy has been into, I don't want any of it because it scares me.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: It's common sense. I know common sense would scare you, son. That's exactly what I'm into. And that would be the most frightening thing in the world.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Go with Ahmad Chalabi and the whole freak show over there and all your deficits and everything else.
CARLSON: Yes, James, James...
CARVILLE: Down.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: All right. Well, I don't sense I'm convincing you, so I completely give up. We're going to move on to our guests, who will be here in just a moment.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: The war in Iraq has turned the campaign for president into a political battlefront, of course. As President Bush tries to overcome the negative news out of Iraq, critics are asking John Kerry, "Just what is your plan?" to which he says nothing. And does anyone really care what Bill Clinton has to say about any of this?
Later, strippers with a cause. We'll tell you the latest place where politics and the adult entertainment industry have intersected yet again.
We'll be right back.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Get ahead of the CROSSFIRE. Sign up for CROSSFIRE's daily "Political Alert" e-mail. You'll get a preview of each day's show, plus an inside look at the day's political headlines. Just go to CNN.com/CROSSFIRE and sign up today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Well, just one day after President Bush rallied congressional Republicans on Iraq, "The Washington Post" publishes new photos of Iraqi prisoners apparently being abused by American soldiers. Do you remember when the campaign was going to be waged over the economy? What's that? Now it is all Iraq. In the CROSSFIRE to debate it, Democratic strategist Vic Kamber and Republican consultant Cheri Jacobus.
CARVILLE: Cheri, President Bush has broken every record in American presidential politics for negative campaigning. Do you think that he is drowning in a sea of negativity because attacking John Kerry because, A, he has no accomplishments or, B, he just likes savaging people; he's just inherently a man that likes to savage people?
CHERI JACOBUS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, James, no. I think you enjoy savaging people.
CARVILLE: But I'm not the president of the United States.
JACOBUS: No.
CARVILLE: I'm a talk show host on cable TV.
JACOBUS: And we're grateful for that.
CARVILLE: I am, too. The country should be. But...
JACOBUS: I don't think that he's drowning in negativity.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: But more than anybody else?
JACOBUS: I don't know -- I don't know what measuring stick you're using.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: But I can see where people on your side of the aisle would be somewhat frustrated, because when you look at the new polls that are out in the 16 battleground states, you've got Bush polling ahead. So I can see where the Kerry folks and you and others would be extremely frustrated and look at any examination of Kerry's words and Kerry's record as being negative, when in fact it's...
CARVILLE: But do you think President Bush, why can't he just mention an accomplishment, just off the top of his head? He's running for reelection.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: He says, why don't you reelect me because I did A, B, and C?
JACOBUS: Well, I think that he
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Or he really -- he don't have any to talk about?
JACOBUS: I think that he has been doing that, James.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Iraq is a great success?
JACOBUS: I think that Iraq will be a great success.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: The deficit is a great success?
JACOBUS: I think the fact that we are going to be able to hand over Iraq to the Iraqi people...
CARVILLE: Oh, right.
JACOBUS: ... in a matter of weeks is a great success.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: Who would have thought that a couple of years ago?
CARVILLE: Yes, wonderful. It's a wonderful thing.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Vic Kamber, the key thing that I think the Bush campaign has going for it is the fact that a lot of people on the Democratic left have become haters. And they out of the closet about it.
I want to read you a quote from the House minority leader, Nancy Pelosi. You're familiar with it, of course, but it's a remarkable quote. I want to read it again. She said this yesterday: "Bush is an incompetent leader. In fact, he's not a leader. He's a person who has no judgment, no experience and no knowledge of the subjects he has to decide on. He has on his shoulders the deaths of many more troops."
I wonder if you can break with your party long enough to admit that he has no judgment, no experience and no knowledge?
VIC KAMBER, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Are you upset because the truth hurts or what?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Do you really -- no, honestly -- no, no, honestly, do you really believe that he has no experience no, judgment, and no knowledge? Hush, my son.
KAMBER: I think, when you -- experience in what? When he was governor of the state, he had no foreign policy experience, maybe going to a Chinese restaurant or a Mexican restaurant.
(LAUGHTER) (CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: That's the extent of his foreign policy experience. When you're talking about -- and James is right -- I'd like an accomplishment. What has he done? Iraq? Who are you kidding?
Under the best of circumstances, Iraq is a disaster. We have no plan to get out. We're losing lives every day. We're injuring people every day. And if we did get out tomorrow, there would be a mass massacre of people there.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Hold on. Let me ask a follow-up. I wonder if you think, honestly, and I wonder if you can -- I know we're on TV, but try to be honest with me.
KAMBER: I am being honest with you.
CARLSON: I wonder if you think you convince anybody with hyperbole that vulgar and dumb? Has he has no knowledge. He has no judgment. Do you convince anybody or is it
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Why do you do that?
KAMBER: When somebody criticizes this administration
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Why not criticize it in a reasonable, honest way, then?
CARVILLE: Why don't you let him answer, Tucker?
CARLSON: Hush.
CARVILLE: No.
KAMBER: When somebody criticizes this administration, you're usually not patriotic. You're usually vulgar.
CARLSON: Oh, give me a break.
(CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: I'm saying to you, this man, this man does not deserve to be president of the United States.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
KAMBER: If that's vulgar, I'm sorry.
CARVILLE: Let me just preface this. Congresswoman Pelosi was dead wrong and out of bounds when she said President Bush has no judgment. He's got horrible judgment. He would be much better off if he had none.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Let me...
JACOBUS: James, I think she's an embarrassment to the Democratic Party. That's not leadership. That's opinion. It's not fact.
CARVILLE: Let me show you a question that was asked on a poll, Democracy Corps. This was April 19 through 22. Do you think George Bush is in over his head? Fifty-three percent of the people in America said that he is.
So you think 53 percent of America -- you know, Fox News and talk radio had a connective -- collective conniption over Nancy Pelosi. What's wrong with 53 percent of America? Are over half the people in this country crazy to think that he's in over his head?
JACOBUS: I think that you're looking at one question in a vacuum. The fact of the matter is, people still trust this president over John Kerry to lead this nation.
CARVILLE: Why is he losing in all the polls?
JACOBUS: He's not.
CARVILLE: Of course.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: It is neck and neck -- it is neck and neck when you look at the popular vote. When you look at those 16 battleground states, where it matters, James...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Cheri, he's up five. Every poll has him up.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: In the battleground states, where it matter, Bush is ahead and that's what you guys are scared of.
CARVILLE: You're arguing 53 percent of people in the country said the man is in over his head.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Now, Vic -- oh, I'm sorry, Cheri.
JACOBUS: No, that's -- I just -- I was looking at the polls and I think I can do the math as well as James.
(CROSSTALK) CARLSON: Well, I think you made a pretty good point.
JACOBUS: Yes.
CARLSON: Now, Vic, I want to tone it down a little bit, just to get on a subject that I don't think we're even going to argue about, because I think it will make both of us pretty sad. And it's a piece in the new "Vanity Fair" magazine by Robert Sam Anson. And it tries to answer the question, what has Bill Clinton been doing for the past three years? Hasn't cured AIDS in Africa, despite his promises.
KAMBER: Bill Clinton we're talking about?
CARLSON: Bill Clinton, yes.
Here's what he has been doing. "After leaving office in 2001," Anson says, "Clinton was so bored sitting in Chappaqua while his wife worked I nation Senate, he showed up at a local elementary school one morning to watch a play." It was entitled "Lost in New York." "Another time, he invited a couple of local 12-year-olds into his living room to chat about the impact of technology on everyday life." He is -- quote -- "desperate for company."
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: I wonder, given -- first, do you think that's -- A, do you think that's sad?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: All this stuff and Tucker is asking you about
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: That's the saddest
(CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: I worried when Ronald Reagan -- and I don't mean to besmirch a person -- left office and just gave speeches around the world for millions of dollars.
CARLSON: Clinton made $11 million in the last year.
(CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: I worried when George Bush, the first George Bush, left office and went around the world giving speeches, went on boards, corporate boards. The fact that Bill Clinton wants to go to a high school or a grammar school and visit with little kids, who cares? That's wonderful he's doing it.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I agree.
KAMBER: Let's talk about -- let's talk about...
CARLSON: But I wonder, are you concerned about the fact that his book will be coming out just about a month before the Democratic Convention?
KAMBER: I think it's fabulous. And I'll read it and I'll buy it and so will a lot of Americans.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You don't think his charisma will overshadow the charisma-less John Kerry?
KAMBER: No. Listen, this election is going to be about George Bush. And George Bush is a loser. He does not deserve to be reelected.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Cheri, let me ask you, speaking of judgment, what was it that President Bush and Vice President Cheney and Secretary Rumsfeld and Mr. Wolfowitz, what was it about Ahmad Chalabi that so bowled them over that they've given $33 million, in their judgment?
JACOBUS: Well, first of all, we know that he's had a relationship with the United States government throughout the '90s as well, a more intense one now, because this is the administration -- this is the administration that actually cared about going in and getting Saddam Hussein, rather than the last one.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Yes. We're there. We're really there. They got us in there.
(CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: And we got Saddam. And yet nothing's changed, except we're still losing lives every day.
JACOBUS: We've got an entire nation of people who are now free and now are going to have sovereignty for the first time.
KAMBER: Free?
JACOBUS: Yes. They are going to be able to run their own country.
(CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: Try a nation petrified of walking out the door, in their homes.
(APPLAUSE) (CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: They look real free to me.
CARLSON: Let's let Cheri answer the question.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead.
JACOBUS: Well, they are free. And I know it's going to be tougher up and until the handover and a little tough after that. But it will be one of the accomplishments of this administration. And then James, you'll have to find something else to gripe about on this show.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: There will be plenty. I could talk about the deficit and the fact that health care
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I wonder -- I keep throwing these quotes at you that strike me as prima facia unreasonable. And you don't seem to think so. Let me throw another. I'll be interested to see what you think of this. This is what John Kerry said last Thursday.
Quote: "When Bill Clinton left office, not one young American was dying in war anywhere in this world," as if George W. Bush taking office as president is responsible for the deaths of American soldiers. That strikes me as unfair and stupid.
(CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: Well, we're back to anything that you disagree with is unfair, unpatriotic. When I grew up
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Look, pal, I never said it was unpatriotic.
(CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: I didn't say you did. I said this administration does. And you're parroting right now much of what this administration says when people
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Look, man, just answer the question.
(CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: I am.
(CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: When I grew up, Tucker, the Democrats were always blamed for being the party of war. The Republicans were the party of peace.
CARLSON: I'm sorry about your childhood. Just answer my question, please.
(CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: Under this administration, Bill Clinton didn't lose one life in his term. One American life did not get lost under Bill Clinton's administration.
CARLSON: All right.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: So I suppose
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: It's the GOP's talking points, son.
CARLSON: I suppose September 11 really had nothing to do with any of this.
KAMBER: No. And let's give Bush credit for what he -- how he stood up as a leader after September 11. But let's also deal with the realities of George Bush as a leader. He went to war in Iraq without a plan to get out. He is keeping us in Iraq because he doesn't know how to get out of Iraq right now.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: You know, your side deserves to lose because it's so consumed by hatred and it's so unattractive.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... love our country. We love America, Tucker. Get over it. You're stuck hating Bill Clinton.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: You're stuck hating everything.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: We're going to have to take a commercial break here.
When we come back, would you believe it, yet another John Kerry flip-flop. We'll tell you about it next in "Rapid Fire."
And a bombshell development in the Martha Stewart case. Wolf Blitzer has the latest right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of hour, a surprise twist in the Martha Stewart case, a key government witness charged with perjury. Will it mean a new trial for the embattled businesswoman?
Disturbing new photos and now videotape. The prisoner abuse scandal grows deeper.
And is Greece doing enough to protect the upcoming Summer Olympic Games in Athens? I'll ask the country's prime minister.
Those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: It's time for "Rapid Fire," where we ask the questions faster than Bush can distance himself from once favored Iraqi son Ahmad Chalabi.
We're talking about the mess in Iraq. In the CROSSFIRE, Republican consultant Cheri Jacobus and Democrat strategist Vic Kamber.
CARLSON: Now, Vic, let me get this right. John Kerry may go to the convention in July in Boston, but not actually get the nomination until later. The Bush-Cheney campaign said a pretty good line, I thought. Only John Kerry could be for a nominating convention, but against the nomination.
KAMBER: I'm not sure what you're saying.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm saying, A, do you think it's a little bit weird that he would delay it for a month? And, B, for a guy who's for campaign finance, ostensibly, isn't this kind of hypocritical? The whole point is campaign finance reform.
KAMBER: No. The process is the process. What do you -- I'm not sure what you're asking.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He doesn't understand the process.
CARLSON: Actually, I understand it quite well, James, probably better than you do. And the point of it is...
CARVILLE: I've actually run a presidential campaign. CARLSON: Yes, but not well.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Look, we won, didn't we? Better than Bush did in 2000.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But to limit the spending of private money -- right -- private money during the campaign. Shouldn't he be taking public funds after his convention?
KAMBER: He wants to be equal to George Bush. And as long as George Bush is taking and spending private funding, so is the Democrat to have an equal footing. There is nothing wrong with that. That's what the process is.
CARVILLE: What is it about fair play, a level playing field that so offends Mr. Carlson? Mr. Carlson attacked me for running a bad presidential campaign, yet he supports down the line a president that didn't even win an election.
All John Kerry's campaign was saying is, they examined the thing to have a level playing field. What about a level playing field that so offends Republicans?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You all want to give corporation everything. You want to give the powerful everything.
(APPLAUSE)
JACOBUS: Republicans aren't offended by a level playing field, James.
Here's the problem I think for John Kerry. He can do this at his convention. And, actually, strategically, it probably makes sense. But he's going to have a real P.R. problem when he stands up there and tries to tell the American people and the Democrats, gee, I love what you're doing, but I'm going to wait to accept the nomination a month or five weeks from now, when I have more money.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: I think he's going to look like an idiot and I think, while Washington insiders get it, the rest of America
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: He won't look like an idiot at all. It's just another chance
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Hush.
Can you imagine you accusing other people of sucking up to power?
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Now, I wonder, Vic, if you don't think the Kerry campaign made just a bad tactical mistake in allowing this Nader story to go another day, this fight about, did they talk about Iraq or not? Wasn't the whole point to get Nader out of the picture, this meeting earlier this week?
KAMBER: I think the meeting was to see if there was any common ground between the two.
(BELL RINGING)
KAMBER: To see if there was any desire for Ralph Nader to drop aside. They had a meeting. It was a 70-minute meeting. It's a story you people have kept alive.
CARLSON: I hope it goes on and on. It's a great story.
CARVILLE: It is.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Thanks a lot, Vic Kamber, Cheri Jacobus. We appreciate it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... and hope. To keep hope alive, let Tucker talk about Cynthia McKinney.
CARLSON: That's exactly right.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: When you think of presidential...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Hush, James, before I beat you up -- strip clubs probably are not the first thing you think of. Well, the adult entertainment industry has finally found a cause.
We'll you what it is right after this. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Well, it's an election year, so political activism pops up in the strangest places. An organization of strip club owners has become hot and bothered at the prospect of President Bush's reelection. They're against it. The trade group is urging patrons to take their eyes off the stage long enough to fill out voter registration forms and in November to vote against Bush, possibly even to contribute to Kerry in moist $1 bills, of course.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: A letter from the Association of Club Executives says, everything must be done to defeat Bush and what it calls his ultra- conservative administration. But at least one member in North Carolina says that while he is handing out voter registration forms, he is not slamming the president. He is pro-Bush.
CARVILLE: After all, al Qaeda supports Bush. The strip (UNINTELLIGIBLE) votes Kerry.
From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: Well, whatever that means, but it's over anyway.
I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again next week for another week of CROSSFIRE. Have an excellent weekend.
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Aired May 21, 2004 - 16:30 ET
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(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: more evidence of prisoner abuse in Iraq and fallout from a raid on former Pentagon favorite Ahmad Chalabi's compound. When will the Bush administration get some good news out of Iraq?
And John Kerry may not accept his nomination at the Democratic Party's convention in July. Find out what impact all this may have on the campaign -- today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: More bad -- more bad news out of Iraq for President Bush, including new images of abuse of Iraqi prisoners. And in a prime-time speech, Bush plans to tell the world about his clear strategy, whatever that is, for Iraq. Who is he kidding?
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Also, surprise, surprise, John Kerry doesn't believe in campaign finance reform after all. Kerry may delay his acceptance of the Democratic presidential nomination in July so he can spend more of the money he raised during the primaries, something he couldn't do if he accepted the nomination.
More from the political battlefront just ahead, but, first, the best political little briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Earlier this week, John Kerry and Ralph Nader sat down for a 70- minute meeting. Almost immediately after, the Kerry campaign announced that neither of the men had mentioned a single word about Iraq. Now, this seemed pretty strange. Iraq, after all, is the only point of real contention between Kerry and Nader. Kerry -- Nader says he would bring American troops within six months.
Kerry, of course, supports the Bush "stay the course" plan. So why wouldn't the two have talked about this? Well, according to Nader, they did talk about it at some length, which means that one of these guys is lying. Could it be Ralph Nader, the pro-hemp third- party maverick who says precisely what he thinks, no matter how politically unpopular it may be? Or could it be Kerry who is lying? We'll let you decide.
CARVILLE: Well, first of all, they don't have the same position. John Kerry has articulated a clear position.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: What of them is lying, James.
CARVILLE: President Bush's position is -- no, nobody is lying. Somebody in the campaign said they didn't.
CARLSON: That's actually not true.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: It's sad. It's a ridiculous....
CARLSON: This is the dumbest thing I've ever seen the Kerry campaign do, because what they...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... going down, son. It's sad to see you boys going down, down, down.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: The Kerry campaign is trying to get Nader to shut up.
CARVILLE: Going down.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: And by pretending and by telling tales about how he never mentioned Iraq, it keeps him in the news for another day.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: The Kerry campaign said something. Kerry didn't say it. Kerry's plan is much better than Bush's. He has a plan to get us out of Iraq.
It took longer than...
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: It took longer than it should have, but the Pentagon has stopped paying millions of dollars to one of the masterminds of the debacle in Iraq.
Since 2000, Ahmad Chalabi, the once favored Iraqi in the Bush administration, has been paid $33 million, $33 million. For that fee, he managed to convince Vice President Cheney that invading American soldiers would be treated as liberators with roses, by the way, would be showered with sweets and flowers. Then he embarrassed us around the world by providing misleading and erroneous information about weapons of mass destruction.
It looks like House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi was right about this. The administration really doesn't have a clue.
CARLSON: Chalabi, whatever his many problems was, talked a very pro-American game. And to conservatives, that's appealing, believe it or not, James. This guy could be a leader of Iraq who is pro- American.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Why was he giving out secrets to Iran?
CARLSON: Well, it turns out that the guy was a double-dealer. But I will say
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You conservatives are naive.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... buffoons.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: The idea that this guy was arrested or hassled in Iraq yesterday, that his place was broken into or run into by all these American soldiers, when there are anti-American figures in Iraq totally unmolested, I do think is odd.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: We should leave this thief alone?
CARLSON: I'm not sure if we should leave him alone, but why aren't we going after Muqtada al-Sadr first?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Why did we pay him $33 million and then go looking for money in his house? He's probably got our money in there, our taxpayers' money.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: He was paid to run an intelligence service, which
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, you may remember Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney. She was the left-wing Georgia Democrat who lost her seat a couple of years ago after she accused the president of the United States of being part of the September 11 terrorist plot. Later, her chief political adviser blamed her defeat on -- quote -- "the Jews."
Well, McKinney used to be considered an embarrassment to her party, but not anymore. Yesterday, the Georgia AFL-CIO, the state's largest labor union, endorsed Cynthia McKinney's bid to win back her old congressional seat. The head of the union explained that McKinney has been consistently pro-labor. He did not mention that she is a foaming conspiracy theorist. He may not even have noticed that because McKinney is no longer the only Democrat to accuse the president of murder.
These days, she's only one of many. McKinney's views have not changed. They have just become part of the Democratic mainstream.
Your party is going insane, James. And you know that that's true.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: My party is completely
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: If there's one way that George W. Bush could win this election, it's because his opponents are actually crazy.
CARVILLE: You know what? You know what? Cynthia McKinney, who represents of Indiana, lost her seat in the Democratic primary.
CARLSON: She's been endorsed by the AFL-CIO, James.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You know what? Democrats in her district voted her out. Son, get over it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Get over it. We've got a deficit for $10 trillion. We're stuck in Iraq. And you're talking about Cynthia McKinney.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You can't focus on the big issues.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You're worried about Cynthia McKinney. We're worried about bringing America back and making...
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: They are going down.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm not even going to argue with
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: I don't know what you mean by they. I don't work for the campaign.
CARVILLE: Down, down, down, all you.
President Bush is setting a record for negative commercials and negative campaigns, maybe because he has no accomplishments other than having us stuck in Iraq, hated around the world and broke at home.
CARLSON: Oh, get real.
CARVILLE: Well, he's at it again. The Bush campaign is set to launch another negative ad in their little sea of negativity, this one criticizing John Kerry's stance on the so-called Patriot Act. This is the last gasp of a dying regime that's accomplished nothing.
President Bush would do better to exit gracefully rather than drowning in a sea of negativity.
CARLSON: Oh, James.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Down, down.
CARLSON: I have to say -- I have to say...
CARVILLE: Down.
CARLSON: When I listen to you -- when I listen to you speak, I'm not quite sure what you're saying because I can't really understand you.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... interrupt. I never interrupt you.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK) CARLSON: When I listen to you speak, I think, whatever that guy has been into, I don't want any of it because it scares me.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: It's common sense. I know common sense would scare you, son. That's exactly what I'm into. And that would be the most frightening thing in the world.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Go with Ahmad Chalabi and the whole freak show over there and all your deficits and everything else.
CARLSON: Yes, James, James...
CARVILLE: Down.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: All right. Well, I don't sense I'm convincing you, so I completely give up. We're going to move on to our guests, who will be here in just a moment.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: The war in Iraq has turned the campaign for president into a political battlefront, of course. As President Bush tries to overcome the negative news out of Iraq, critics are asking John Kerry, "Just what is your plan?" to which he says nothing. And does anyone really care what Bill Clinton has to say about any of this?
Later, strippers with a cause. We'll tell you the latest place where politics and the adult entertainment industry have intersected yet again.
We'll be right back.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Get ahead of the CROSSFIRE. Sign up for CROSSFIRE's daily "Political Alert" e-mail. You'll get a preview of each day's show, plus an inside look at the day's political headlines. Just go to CNN.com/CROSSFIRE and sign up today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Well, just one day after President Bush rallied congressional Republicans on Iraq, "The Washington Post" publishes new photos of Iraqi prisoners apparently being abused by American soldiers. Do you remember when the campaign was going to be waged over the economy? What's that? Now it is all Iraq. In the CROSSFIRE to debate it, Democratic strategist Vic Kamber and Republican consultant Cheri Jacobus.
CARVILLE: Cheri, President Bush has broken every record in American presidential politics for negative campaigning. Do you think that he is drowning in a sea of negativity because attacking John Kerry because, A, he has no accomplishments or, B, he just likes savaging people; he's just inherently a man that likes to savage people?
CHERI JACOBUS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, James, no. I think you enjoy savaging people.
CARVILLE: But I'm not the president of the United States.
JACOBUS: No.
CARVILLE: I'm a talk show host on cable TV.
JACOBUS: And we're grateful for that.
CARVILLE: I am, too. The country should be. But...
JACOBUS: I don't think that he's drowning in negativity.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: But more than anybody else?
JACOBUS: I don't know -- I don't know what measuring stick you're using.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: But I can see where people on your side of the aisle would be somewhat frustrated, because when you look at the new polls that are out in the 16 battleground states, you've got Bush polling ahead. So I can see where the Kerry folks and you and others would be extremely frustrated and look at any examination of Kerry's words and Kerry's record as being negative, when in fact it's...
CARVILLE: But do you think President Bush, why can't he just mention an accomplishment, just off the top of his head? He's running for reelection.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: He says, why don't you reelect me because I did A, B, and C?
JACOBUS: Well, I think that he
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Or he really -- he don't have any to talk about?
JACOBUS: I think that he has been doing that, James.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Iraq is a great success?
JACOBUS: I think that Iraq will be a great success.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: The deficit is a great success?
JACOBUS: I think the fact that we are going to be able to hand over Iraq to the Iraqi people...
CARVILLE: Oh, right.
JACOBUS: ... in a matter of weeks is a great success.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: Who would have thought that a couple of years ago?
CARVILLE: Yes, wonderful. It's a wonderful thing.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Vic Kamber, the key thing that I think the Bush campaign has going for it is the fact that a lot of people on the Democratic left have become haters. And they out of the closet about it.
I want to read you a quote from the House minority leader, Nancy Pelosi. You're familiar with it, of course, but it's a remarkable quote. I want to read it again. She said this yesterday: "Bush is an incompetent leader. In fact, he's not a leader. He's a person who has no judgment, no experience and no knowledge of the subjects he has to decide on. He has on his shoulders the deaths of many more troops."
I wonder if you can break with your party long enough to admit that he has no judgment, no experience and no knowledge?
VIC KAMBER, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Are you upset because the truth hurts or what?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Do you really -- no, honestly -- no, no, honestly, do you really believe that he has no experience no, judgment, and no knowledge? Hush, my son.
KAMBER: I think, when you -- experience in what? When he was governor of the state, he had no foreign policy experience, maybe going to a Chinese restaurant or a Mexican restaurant.
(LAUGHTER) (CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: That's the extent of his foreign policy experience. When you're talking about -- and James is right -- I'd like an accomplishment. What has he done? Iraq? Who are you kidding?
Under the best of circumstances, Iraq is a disaster. We have no plan to get out. We're losing lives every day. We're injuring people every day. And if we did get out tomorrow, there would be a mass massacre of people there.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Hold on. Let me ask a follow-up. I wonder if you think, honestly, and I wonder if you can -- I know we're on TV, but try to be honest with me.
KAMBER: I am being honest with you.
CARLSON: I wonder if you think you convince anybody with hyperbole that vulgar and dumb? Has he has no knowledge. He has no judgment. Do you convince anybody or is it
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Why do you do that?
KAMBER: When somebody criticizes this administration
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Why not criticize it in a reasonable, honest way, then?
CARVILLE: Why don't you let him answer, Tucker?
CARLSON: Hush.
CARVILLE: No.
KAMBER: When somebody criticizes this administration, you're usually not patriotic. You're usually vulgar.
CARLSON: Oh, give me a break.
(CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: I'm saying to you, this man, this man does not deserve to be president of the United States.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
KAMBER: If that's vulgar, I'm sorry.
CARVILLE: Let me just preface this. Congresswoman Pelosi was dead wrong and out of bounds when she said President Bush has no judgment. He's got horrible judgment. He would be much better off if he had none.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Let me...
JACOBUS: James, I think she's an embarrassment to the Democratic Party. That's not leadership. That's opinion. It's not fact.
CARVILLE: Let me show you a question that was asked on a poll, Democracy Corps. This was April 19 through 22. Do you think George Bush is in over his head? Fifty-three percent of the people in America said that he is.
So you think 53 percent of America -- you know, Fox News and talk radio had a connective -- collective conniption over Nancy Pelosi. What's wrong with 53 percent of America? Are over half the people in this country crazy to think that he's in over his head?
JACOBUS: I think that you're looking at one question in a vacuum. The fact of the matter is, people still trust this president over John Kerry to lead this nation.
CARVILLE: Why is he losing in all the polls?
JACOBUS: He's not.
CARVILLE: Of course.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: It is neck and neck -- it is neck and neck when you look at the popular vote. When you look at those 16 battleground states, where it matters, James...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Cheri, he's up five. Every poll has him up.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: In the battleground states, where it matter, Bush is ahead and that's what you guys are scared of.
CARVILLE: You're arguing 53 percent of people in the country said the man is in over his head.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Now, Vic -- oh, I'm sorry, Cheri.
JACOBUS: No, that's -- I just -- I was looking at the polls and I think I can do the math as well as James.
(CROSSTALK) CARLSON: Well, I think you made a pretty good point.
JACOBUS: Yes.
CARLSON: Now, Vic, I want to tone it down a little bit, just to get on a subject that I don't think we're even going to argue about, because I think it will make both of us pretty sad. And it's a piece in the new "Vanity Fair" magazine by Robert Sam Anson. And it tries to answer the question, what has Bill Clinton been doing for the past three years? Hasn't cured AIDS in Africa, despite his promises.
KAMBER: Bill Clinton we're talking about?
CARLSON: Bill Clinton, yes.
Here's what he has been doing. "After leaving office in 2001," Anson says, "Clinton was so bored sitting in Chappaqua while his wife worked I nation Senate, he showed up at a local elementary school one morning to watch a play." It was entitled "Lost in New York." "Another time, he invited a couple of local 12-year-olds into his living room to chat about the impact of technology on everyday life." He is -- quote -- "desperate for company."
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: I wonder, given -- first, do you think that's -- A, do you think that's sad?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: All this stuff and Tucker is asking you about
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: That's the saddest
(CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: I worried when Ronald Reagan -- and I don't mean to besmirch a person -- left office and just gave speeches around the world for millions of dollars.
CARLSON: Clinton made $11 million in the last year.
(CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: I worried when George Bush, the first George Bush, left office and went around the world giving speeches, went on boards, corporate boards. The fact that Bill Clinton wants to go to a high school or a grammar school and visit with little kids, who cares? That's wonderful he's doing it.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I agree.
KAMBER: Let's talk about -- let's talk about...
CARLSON: But I wonder, are you concerned about the fact that his book will be coming out just about a month before the Democratic Convention?
KAMBER: I think it's fabulous. And I'll read it and I'll buy it and so will a lot of Americans.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You don't think his charisma will overshadow the charisma-less John Kerry?
KAMBER: No. Listen, this election is going to be about George Bush. And George Bush is a loser. He does not deserve to be reelected.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Cheri, let me ask you, speaking of judgment, what was it that President Bush and Vice President Cheney and Secretary Rumsfeld and Mr. Wolfowitz, what was it about Ahmad Chalabi that so bowled them over that they've given $33 million, in their judgment?
JACOBUS: Well, first of all, we know that he's had a relationship with the United States government throughout the '90s as well, a more intense one now, because this is the administration -- this is the administration that actually cared about going in and getting Saddam Hussein, rather than the last one.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Yes. We're there. We're really there. They got us in there.
(CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: And we got Saddam. And yet nothing's changed, except we're still losing lives every day.
JACOBUS: We've got an entire nation of people who are now free and now are going to have sovereignty for the first time.
KAMBER: Free?
JACOBUS: Yes. They are going to be able to run their own country.
(CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: Try a nation petrified of walking out the door, in their homes.
(APPLAUSE) (CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: They look real free to me.
CARLSON: Let's let Cheri answer the question.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead.
JACOBUS: Well, they are free. And I know it's going to be tougher up and until the handover and a little tough after that. But it will be one of the accomplishments of this administration. And then James, you'll have to find something else to gripe about on this show.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: There will be plenty. I could talk about the deficit and the fact that health care
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: I wonder -- I keep throwing these quotes at you that strike me as prima facia unreasonable. And you don't seem to think so. Let me throw another. I'll be interested to see what you think of this. This is what John Kerry said last Thursday.
Quote: "When Bill Clinton left office, not one young American was dying in war anywhere in this world," as if George W. Bush taking office as president is responsible for the deaths of American soldiers. That strikes me as unfair and stupid.
(CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: Well, we're back to anything that you disagree with is unfair, unpatriotic. When I grew up
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Look, pal, I never said it was unpatriotic.
(CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: I didn't say you did. I said this administration does. And you're parroting right now much of what this administration says when people
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Look, man, just answer the question.
(CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: I am.
(CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: When I grew up, Tucker, the Democrats were always blamed for being the party of war. The Republicans were the party of peace.
CARLSON: I'm sorry about your childhood. Just answer my question, please.
(CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: Under this administration, Bill Clinton didn't lose one life in his term. One American life did not get lost under Bill Clinton's administration.
CARLSON: All right.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: So I suppose
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: It's the GOP's talking points, son.
CARLSON: I suppose September 11 really had nothing to do with any of this.
KAMBER: No. And let's give Bush credit for what he -- how he stood up as a leader after September 11. But let's also deal with the realities of George Bush as a leader. He went to war in Iraq without a plan to get out. He is keeping us in Iraq because he doesn't know how to get out of Iraq right now.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: You know, your side deserves to lose because it's so consumed by hatred and it's so unattractive.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... love our country. We love America, Tucker. Get over it. You're stuck hating Bill Clinton.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: You're stuck hating everything.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: We're going to have to take a commercial break here.
When we come back, would you believe it, yet another John Kerry flip-flop. We'll tell you about it next in "Rapid Fire."
And a bombshell development in the Martha Stewart case. Wolf Blitzer has the latest right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of hour, a surprise twist in the Martha Stewart case, a key government witness charged with perjury. Will it mean a new trial for the embattled businesswoman?
Disturbing new photos and now videotape. The prisoner abuse scandal grows deeper.
And is Greece doing enough to protect the upcoming Summer Olympic Games in Athens? I'll ask the country's prime minister.
Those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: It's time for "Rapid Fire," where we ask the questions faster than Bush can distance himself from once favored Iraqi son Ahmad Chalabi.
We're talking about the mess in Iraq. In the CROSSFIRE, Republican consultant Cheri Jacobus and Democrat strategist Vic Kamber.
CARLSON: Now, Vic, let me get this right. John Kerry may go to the convention in July in Boston, but not actually get the nomination until later. The Bush-Cheney campaign said a pretty good line, I thought. Only John Kerry could be for a nominating convention, but against the nomination.
KAMBER: I'm not sure what you're saying.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm saying, A, do you think it's a little bit weird that he would delay it for a month? And, B, for a guy who's for campaign finance, ostensibly, isn't this kind of hypocritical? The whole point is campaign finance reform.
KAMBER: No. The process is the process. What do you -- I'm not sure what you're asking.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He doesn't understand the process.
CARLSON: Actually, I understand it quite well, James, probably better than you do. And the point of it is...
CARVILLE: I've actually run a presidential campaign. CARLSON: Yes, but not well.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Look, we won, didn't we? Better than Bush did in 2000.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But to limit the spending of private money -- right -- private money during the campaign. Shouldn't he be taking public funds after his convention?
KAMBER: He wants to be equal to George Bush. And as long as George Bush is taking and spending private funding, so is the Democrat to have an equal footing. There is nothing wrong with that. That's what the process is.
CARVILLE: What is it about fair play, a level playing field that so offends Mr. Carlson? Mr. Carlson attacked me for running a bad presidential campaign, yet he supports down the line a president that didn't even win an election.
All John Kerry's campaign was saying is, they examined the thing to have a level playing field. What about a level playing field that so offends Republicans?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You all want to give corporation everything. You want to give the powerful everything.
(APPLAUSE)
JACOBUS: Republicans aren't offended by a level playing field, James.
Here's the problem I think for John Kerry. He can do this at his convention. And, actually, strategically, it probably makes sense. But he's going to have a real P.R. problem when he stands up there and tries to tell the American people and the Democrats, gee, I love what you're doing, but I'm going to wait to accept the nomination a month or five weeks from now, when I have more money.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: I think he's going to look like an idiot and I think, while Washington insiders get it, the rest of America
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: He won't look like an idiot at all. It's just another chance
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Hush.
Can you imagine you accusing other people of sucking up to power?
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Now, I wonder, Vic, if you don't think the Kerry campaign made just a bad tactical mistake in allowing this Nader story to go another day, this fight about, did they talk about Iraq or not? Wasn't the whole point to get Nader out of the picture, this meeting earlier this week?
KAMBER: I think the meeting was to see if there was any common ground between the two.
(BELL RINGING)
KAMBER: To see if there was any desire for Ralph Nader to drop aside. They had a meeting. It was a 70-minute meeting. It's a story you people have kept alive.
CARLSON: I hope it goes on and on. It's a great story.
CARVILLE: It is.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Thanks a lot, Vic Kamber, Cheri Jacobus. We appreciate it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... and hope. To keep hope alive, let Tucker talk about Cynthia McKinney.
CARLSON: That's exactly right.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: When you think of presidential...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Hush, James, before I beat you up -- strip clubs probably are not the first thing you think of. Well, the adult entertainment industry has finally found a cause.
We'll you what it is right after this. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Well, it's an election year, so political activism pops up in the strangest places. An organization of strip club owners has become hot and bothered at the prospect of President Bush's reelection. They're against it. The trade group is urging patrons to take their eyes off the stage long enough to fill out voter registration forms and in November to vote against Bush, possibly even to contribute to Kerry in moist $1 bills, of course.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: A letter from the Association of Club Executives says, everything must be done to defeat Bush and what it calls his ultra- conservative administration. But at least one member in North Carolina says that while he is handing out voter registration forms, he is not slamming the president. He is pro-Bush.
CARVILLE: After all, al Qaeda supports Bush. The strip (UNINTELLIGIBLE) votes Kerry.
From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: Well, whatever that means, but it's over anyway.
I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again next week for another week of CROSSFIRE. Have an excellent weekend.
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