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CNN Crossfire
Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 911"
Aired June 16, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE, coming soon to a theater near you, Michael Moore's version of 9/11 and its aftermath. Is "Fahrenheit 9/11" so far off base you shouldn't bother going? Or are conservative censors going to keep you from seeing it?
Plus, Laura Bush, Teresa Heinz-Kerry and your chance to see how the political cookie crumbles, today on CROSSFIRE.
Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
TUCKER CARLSON, CNN HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Filmmaker Michael Moore's latest diatribe against the United States will soon be out playing, we hope, to empty movie houses around the country.
JAMES CARVILLE, CNN HOST: If more people want to see "Spiderman II" that's there business, but if conservatives want to censor Michael Moore, that's our business.
Our debate begins right after the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE POLITICAL ALERT.
The power-puppet sycophantic bloviating community has been quick to defend contracts of American companies like Halliburton that are doing business in Iraq. Unfortunately, every day brings more news about how indefensible some of these contracts are.
For example, the Pentagon has now found that Halliburton over- billed them by $186 million for meals for our troops and for overpriced gasoline. Now another investigation has found that Halliburton was doing things like abandoning an $85,000 trust when they got a flat tire.
Inspector General David Walker said that the $4.5 billion in contracts that Halliburton received showed, quote, "very little concern for cost considerations," unquote.
I call it something different: war profiteering.
CARLSON: Look, I mean, I am as interested as the next guy and I think much more interested than you are in stories about waste, fraud and abuse. I think they happen all the time in federal bureaucracy. My problem with these Halliburton stories, I'm sure they did all of it. Fine. It has nothing to do with the war, A, and the implication that we went to war to benefit Halliburton is totally irresponsible.
CARVILLE: I didn't say that. I have never -- I am saying that everybody jumps up, you know, every power puppet, you can't attack a company. Of course I can attack a company. If they're over-billing the United States taxpayers, if they're bilking us, they should be -- you know what they need, an Office of the United States Attorney in Baghdad to crackdown on the war profiteering and put them in jail.
CARLSON: That's great. But I think the conspiracy theory that you all spin about this is embarrassing. It's embarrassing.
Well, tomorrow radio listeners across America will have a new choice in talk programming, 'NRA News." It's a three-hour show produced by and for the National Rifle Association.
The idea doesn't sound controversial: some opinions, some headlines, maybe some entertainment, all originating from a specific political point of view. There's nothing new here. That's what talk radio is, from Rush Limbaugh to Al Franken. And yet some on the left think this show ought to be illegal, against the law. Campaign finance reformers claim the show violates a 2002 law that prohibits groups from using unregulated money to express certain political opinions, so they want to close it down.
You're about to hear a lot on this show today about censorship so let's be clear right now: deciding not to watch or air something is not censorship. It's a choice, whether you agree with it or not. But using the power of the federal government to squelch a media outlet whose opinions you disagree with, that is censorship. Got it?
CARVILLE: I don't have -- I don't think people ought to be censored based on whether you like them or not. You see, I don't protest. I'm not out to judge anybody. I don't try to shut anybody down. I'm for free speech. I'm not a conservative. I don't attack people's spouses. I don't try to shut their movies down. I'm not a right-winger. Me, I'm for free speech.
CARLSON: Why is the left trying to shut this down -- James.
CARVILLE: I think the argument that they're making is if they're trying to circumvent the campaign finance law -- I don't know if it is or is not. It's where the money comes from, is quite another thing.
CARLSON: Right, OK.
CARVILLE: Yesterday President George W. Bush spoke via satellite to the annual meeting of a Southern Baptist convention and he used the opportunity to slap down Nancy Reagan. Before Ronald Reagan's death, Nancy Reagan called for President Bush to loosen the ridiculous restrictions he placed on using stem cells in research into diseases like Alzheimer's.
58 senators agree with Nancy Reagan and have recently signed a letter asking Mr. Bush to reconsider the rules. President Bush, however, wouldn't dare upset his right-wing base, so he told Nancy Reagan she got a lot. President Bush also used the speech to celebrate his efforts to make abortion illegal and to renew his calls to write discrimination into the Constitution by banning same-sex marriage.
The more President Bush gives speeches like this, the more united America becomes. United in opinion that it is time for this divider to go.
CARLSON: Really? I don't think you're being fair? There are many people, many religious people, many secular people, who think we ought to stop before we create life just in order to destroy it. It's a big deal, and your effort to blow over it by using phrases like "right-wing base" or whatever, I'm sorry, James. There's a legitimate disagreement. I'm not going to overstep you.
CARVILLE: This man is trying to use religion as a way to get elected. What he ought to do is beyond on that, and he ought to leave these gay folks alone. They're good people. If they want to get married, it's their business.
CARLSON: I'm saying, no matter how many people applaud for the dumb things you just said, there's a legitimate debate out there and you can't squelch it by your barking.
CARVILLE: It's not a legitimate debate. Research comes first.
CARLSON: Well, there are enough kids in daycare in this country, but the John Kerry for President campaign doesn't think there are enough. That is the latest conclusion from that campaign, which announced today an initiative to add more than 1 million children to federal funded daycare programs.
"We need more daycare," Kerry explained, because parents need, quote, "peace of mind." "Peace of mind"? Well, of course, because as any parent knows, nothing gives you quite the peace of mind of knowing that your children are languishing with some government employer staring at a television set in a room full of strangers.
Let's be honest. Most of the time, daycare isn't good for children, not that anybody seems to care. It's usually a last resort. It is always depressing. And as a country, we ought to be looking at ways to make daycare unnecessary, not to expand it.
What would happen if John Kerry admitted that very, very simple and true statement, that daycare is sort of awful, frankly? Well, he's spend the rest of the year apologizing to feminists for saying it. So don't hold your breath.
It's true -- James.
CARVILLE: I don't know how to explain this to you, but every kid doesn't have a daddy whose a TV talk show host, and sometimes mothers have to work in order to make ends meet. Tucker, ain't everybody making as much as money as we do. They've got people out there that are trying to make it on $30,000 a year that need help with daycare. We have children that need help in this country. And bloviating TV hosts sucking up the power are not going to give it to them.
CARLSON: OK. Michael Moore wants you to see his movie. Should you bother? Will his celluloid rant have any impact on the race for president?
And if the movie doesn't do it for you, how about some cookie recipes from people who want to be the next first lady?
Stay tuned, CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Michael Moore's award-winning new movie "Fahrenheit 9/11" shows up in theaters next week. But if some conservatives get their way, you'll never get a chance to see it.
A California-based group called Move America Forward has started a campaign to intimidate theater owners into refusing to play the film. That sounds more like moving America backwards.
To debate what's happened to free speech, we're joined from Los Angeles by syndicated columnist Arianna Huffington and in San Francisco there's radio talk show host Melanie Morgan.
CARLSON: Welcome to you both. Arianna, thanks for joining us.
I'll say right up front, I haven't had the chance to see the movie. I will. But I don't want to debate the movie. I want to talk to you about Michael Moore, who I think since his first movie, "Roger and Me," which I thought was terrific, has become increasingly angry and nonsensical and has drifted into attacks not on President Bush so much, which I think is fair, but on the United States, which I think is not.
I want to read you a quote from "The New Yorker" this February 16. this is Michael Moore speaking to a group, to an audience in Britain, and I'm quoting now.
"You're stuck with being connected to this country of mine," that is America, "which is known for bringing sadness and misery to places around the globe. How does that feel? You don't want to turn into us -- a society where the ethic is me, me, me, me, me, f--- you."
I think that's an outrageous and outrageously unfair description of the United States, which I think is a great liberator around the world. Don't you agree?
ARIANNA HUFFINGTON, COLUMNIST: Well, certainly not a liberator in Iraq, judging by what's happening in the last few weeks.
And, you know, when you see that movie, you're going to see how patriotic it is. That movie is incredibly patriotic. There is one of the most moving scenes I have ever seen -- and I watched it with my 15-year-old daughter -- of a mother of a soldier, a conservative Democrat, as she called herself, a flag-waving patriot, who is talking about the sacrifice of her son for a war which was not necessary.
There is nothing unpatriotic in this movie. It is powerful and compelling.
CARLSON: Arianna, I'm not claiming, as you know, that there is anything unpatriotic in the movie. I haven't seen it. I merely wanted you to respond to that quote. But how about this one, if you won't respond to the first one, from the same "New Yorker" piece. This is Michael Moore again speaking abroad.
Quote, "I understand why the American public was fooled by the lies about Iraq. We live in a system of enforced ignorance. The way the media works, the way our education system works, it's all about keeping us stupid."
Again, that's an outrageous thing to say about the United States of America. The system is designed to keep us stupid?
HUFFINGTON: I'm very willing to defend both of his statements. The second statement that you read is clearly proven by all of the incredible effort to stop us from seeing the movie. If people trust us, why don't they let us hear the truth? Why don't they let us see the movie? Why don't they let us see the flag-covered coffins? Why don't they let us watch Ted Koppel read the names of the dead soldiers? What are they afraid of? That's the question you should be answering.
CARLSON: He read the names of the dead soldiers, Arianna, come on.
HUFFINGTON: Yes, but you know there were stations that tried to stop him.
CARVILLE: Ms. Morgan, I read about it, I didn't see it. You saw the movie. When you saw it, what was your reaction to this mother of this GI who was killed in Iraq? What was your reaction to that? I know -- in your viewing of this film that so offended you, how did you react to this mother?
MELANIE MORGAN, RADIO HOST: Well, James, as you know, because your producers already told you, I haven't seen the film yet. And the reason I haven't seen it yet is because the majority of America has not seen the movie, and the reason why the majority of America hasn't seen the movie is because it's only been screened for a handful of Hollywood liberals and elite media.
But I have been able to discern from the footage and from the information that is available by transcript on the Internet what the true intentions of Michael Moore are.
CARVILLE: Let me get this straight here, because I didn't believe them. I didn't think anybody would sit there and try to censor something they haven't seen.
So you are out here telling us that you don't want people to see a movie that you haven't even seen. I mean, do you think people are really that stupid?
MORGAN: James, I'm not saying anybody is stupid. What I'm saying is as an ordinary American, we have the right to go out in the public square and say shame on somebody who says that they are for our troops but instead they want more troops to die so that we can get out of Iraq so it won't turn into Vietnam. Now I don't consider that a patriotic statement.
(CROSSTALK)
MORGAN: Arianna, I didn't interrupt you. I'd like to finish my statement.
What I said was that I believe that our troops are very crucial to this war on terrorism. This war on terrorism is a turning point in history and for us and Hollywood to undermine what is going on there is dangerous and stupid.
(CROSSTALK)
HUFFINGTON: Can I just come in and interrupt, because what Melanie was saying is simply untrue.
There is absolutely nothing in the movie, and I have seen it, unlike you, Melanie, that implies in any way that Michael Moore is not defending the troops. On the contrary, what he's saying is that because...
(CROSSTALK)
MORGAN: Oh, really, Arianna? Let me interrupt you because we know that he embedded his producers into troops in Iraq and then used the "F word" to describe how they are bleeped because now he's got all of this footage about them.
HUFFINGTON: Absolutely false. I don't know where you get your information.
(CROSSTALK)
MORGAN: I get it from the same places you do. I read newspapers.
CARLSON: Now, wait, hold on. Arianna, I'm sorry to interrupt. I want to ask you a question about something that Michael Moore said about his feelings about the war and why he thinks this war was waged.
This is Michael Moore, again from February, describing why he thinks we went to war in Iraq. Quote, "Who is the beneficiary of this war," Moore asked an audience abroad. "Halliburton. Has anyone else benefited?"
"Israel," several voices in the crowd cried out.
From Michael Moore, quote, "It's all part of the same ball of wax, right? The oil companies, Israel, Halliburton."
So we went to war to benefit the Jewish state, Halliburton and the oil companies? Do you believe that, Arianna, or is that an irresponsible conspiracy theory?
HUFFINGTON: You know, Tucker, first of all, there is something fascinating here. You are clearly not willing to criticize this movie, so all you can do is go to old quotes from Michael Moore.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: It's pretty over the top for me to quote a man and ask you to respond to the quotes, which you're unwilling to do. I haven't seen the movie. I'm merely -- hold on, Arianna. I'm merely asking you to comment on his contention that we went to war to benefit Israel, the oil companies and Halliburton. What do you think of that statement, Arianna? It's a simple question.
HUFFINGTON: He actually said that -- he started by saying that we went to war partly because of oil. Nobody is disputing that and there is no question that Halliburton has benefited tremendously from what's happened.
CARLSON: And what about Israel, Arianna? What about Israel?
HUFFINGTON: And Israel, I don't believe that we went to war to defend Israel. That was a quote that came from members of the audience. But the point here, Tucker, is why are you refusing to say anything negative about the movie? That is really, really good news.
CARLSON: Because I haven't seen the movie, Arianna, that's why.
CARVILLE: Let me -- the ordinary Americans -- you're trying to prohibit ordinary Americans from going to see this, a movie that you haven't seen yourself, which would strike some people as being utterly ridiculous.
MORGAN: Is that a question or a statement -- James.
CARVILLE: It's a statement. And this is the question. If you really -- what you're doing, don't you understand, is, you're just going to make more and more people go see this movie. So are you more interested in helping yourself or helping America?
MORGAN: No.
CARVILLE: Because you certainly -- if you think this movie hurts America, if that's your view, I think free speech helps America, but call me a radical.
MORGAN: Well, yes, obviously I am intending, James, to stand in front of movie houses all across America and bar people from getting in to see Michael Moore's film. That's just preposterous and you know it.
CARVILLE: No, but you don't want them to show it. You're trying to bar the distributors from showing it.
MORGAN: What we are doing is trying to make sure that there is an alternative voice to Michael Moore. He has received millions of dollars and free publicity over the last free weeks about this movie, on ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, you name it, he's been everywhere, this month's "Playboy." But not one single ordinary American has been able to stand up and say, "Hey, we don't appreciate that crap that is being aimed at our troops because we support our troops, we love our troops, they're friends, families, brothers and sisters, and we're going to be there for them."
CARLSON: All right, Melanie, we're going to have to cut you off there, but we will be right back. We've got to take a commercial break.
Coming up in the RAPID FIRE, we'll ask our guests about Michael Moore's new theory about why we went to war in Afghanistan, a non- controversial war.
Also, should first ladies be judged by their cookie recipes? We think so. We're going to put recipes from Laura Bush and potential first lady Teresa Heinz-Kerry to the test.
Right after the break, what if one of Americas top Olympic stars sang about steroid abuse just weeks before the game?
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: It's time for RAPID FIRE. The questions and answers may be short, but at least our guests are allowed to say what they want. We're talking about conservative attempts to stifle Michael Moore with syndicated columnist Arianna Huffington and radio talk show host Melanie Morgan.
CARLSON: Arianna, you seem to be in complete agreement with everything Michael Moore says, so you'll probably agree with this, but I'm going to run it by you anyway. Michael Moore on why we went to war against the Taliban.
Quote, George Bush sent the troops in, quote, "so that his oil company friends could finally build their pipeline to Afghanistan."
Do you agree with that? Do you think that's why we want to war against the Taliban?
HUFFINGTON: You know what, Tucker? This is really a very interesting development. I came here to debate a movie I have seen. I did not come on the show to defend every single thing Michael Moore has said throughout his career.
And what is so interesting is that you, you should be debating Melanie, because clearly you do not think it's appropriate that Melanie and all her friends are trying to boycott a movie that they have not seen.
CARLSON: Arianna, you're not making sense. I'm just asking you a simple question. Come on, Arianna. Rise to the occasion. It's pretty simple. The movie is about the war, come on.
HUFFINGTON: Do you agree that the movie you have not seen should be boycotted? Can you answer me that question? You see, why can't you answer the question?
CARLSON: You've so confused me, Arianna, I give up.
HUFFINGTON: Why can't you answer the question? It's rather critical. That is the critical debate we're having right now.
CARLSON: Thanks for your contribution, Arianna, I really appreciate that.
CARVILLE: Do you agree with Mr. Carlson that the public's access to art should be determined by the likability and political views of the artist? I mean, should we just kind of say people should only watch art of people that we like or people we agree with, which seems to be Mr. Carlson's positions here.
MORGAN: You seem to be deliberately trying to confuse my position, James, and I'm not surprised, because the left usually does that.
What we are saying is Michael Moore has the perfect right to make this movie, and we have a perfect right to stand up in the public square and say no, we're not going to go, and we don't think anybody else should go, so shame on you, Michael.
CARLSON: All right, Melanie Morgan, from San Francisco, Arianna Huffington, from Los Angeles, greetings from the West Coast, East Coast, rather, whatever coast we're on.
Next we'll stick our hands into the political cookie jar and tell you which tastes better, the recipe from Laura Bush or the recipe from Teresa Heinz-Kerry. The future of the country may, indeed it does, hang in the balance.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Well, in 1992, as you'll remember, Hillary Clinton famously mocked women who stayed home and baked cookies instead of pursuing very important legal careers.
Well, in defense of cookie-baking moms, "Family Circle" magazine holds a first lady cookie cook off every four years, and God bless them. Laura Bush and Teresa Heinz-Kerry have submitted their recipes, which we and some members of our studio audience are going to sample. We don't know which cookie is which, although you viewers at home will be let in on the secret in a minute.
First up, cookie A, the pumpkin spice cookie. James, I invite you to try it. We have no idea who made this. A little dry, actually. I had high hopes for the pumpkin.
CARVILLE: Cleanse the pallet.
CARLSON: Next up, cookie B is the oatmeal chocolate chunk cookie. Indeed, quite chunky, and it looks like there are cranberries in there. You know what, James, I'm totally blown away. I went in thinking I was going pumpkin. Now I'm going oatmeal. That's my vote.
CARVILLE: I hate to say this, but I'm going to go with the pumpkin cookie.
CARLSON: Audience, who here liked the oatmeal cookie?
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: And now, who prefers the pumpkin cookie?
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: All right.
And indeed, Laura Bush wins by, what -- I have to say, it's the cranberries in Mrs. Bush's oatmeal cookie that I thought pulled it across the finish line.
CARVILLE: Pulled it across the finish, there you go. This is going to be the decider in this close election.
(CROSSTALK)
From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, swallowing, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again next time for yet more CROSSFIRE. See you tomorrow.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired June 16, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE, coming soon to a theater near you, Michael Moore's version of 9/11 and its aftermath. Is "Fahrenheit 9/11" so far off base you shouldn't bother going? Or are conservative censors going to keep you from seeing it?
Plus, Laura Bush, Teresa Heinz-Kerry and your chance to see how the political cookie crumbles, today on CROSSFIRE.
Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
TUCKER CARLSON, CNN HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Filmmaker Michael Moore's latest diatribe against the United States will soon be out playing, we hope, to empty movie houses around the country.
JAMES CARVILLE, CNN HOST: If more people want to see "Spiderman II" that's there business, but if conservatives want to censor Michael Moore, that's our business.
Our debate begins right after the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE POLITICAL ALERT.
The power-puppet sycophantic bloviating community has been quick to defend contracts of American companies like Halliburton that are doing business in Iraq. Unfortunately, every day brings more news about how indefensible some of these contracts are.
For example, the Pentagon has now found that Halliburton over- billed them by $186 million for meals for our troops and for overpriced gasoline. Now another investigation has found that Halliburton was doing things like abandoning an $85,000 trust when they got a flat tire.
Inspector General David Walker said that the $4.5 billion in contracts that Halliburton received showed, quote, "very little concern for cost considerations," unquote.
I call it something different: war profiteering.
CARLSON: Look, I mean, I am as interested as the next guy and I think much more interested than you are in stories about waste, fraud and abuse. I think they happen all the time in federal bureaucracy. My problem with these Halliburton stories, I'm sure they did all of it. Fine. It has nothing to do with the war, A, and the implication that we went to war to benefit Halliburton is totally irresponsible.
CARVILLE: I didn't say that. I have never -- I am saying that everybody jumps up, you know, every power puppet, you can't attack a company. Of course I can attack a company. If they're over-billing the United States taxpayers, if they're bilking us, they should be -- you know what they need, an Office of the United States Attorney in Baghdad to crackdown on the war profiteering and put them in jail.
CARLSON: That's great. But I think the conspiracy theory that you all spin about this is embarrassing. It's embarrassing.
Well, tomorrow radio listeners across America will have a new choice in talk programming, 'NRA News." It's a three-hour show produced by and for the National Rifle Association.
The idea doesn't sound controversial: some opinions, some headlines, maybe some entertainment, all originating from a specific political point of view. There's nothing new here. That's what talk radio is, from Rush Limbaugh to Al Franken. And yet some on the left think this show ought to be illegal, against the law. Campaign finance reformers claim the show violates a 2002 law that prohibits groups from using unregulated money to express certain political opinions, so they want to close it down.
You're about to hear a lot on this show today about censorship so let's be clear right now: deciding not to watch or air something is not censorship. It's a choice, whether you agree with it or not. But using the power of the federal government to squelch a media outlet whose opinions you disagree with, that is censorship. Got it?
CARVILLE: I don't have -- I don't think people ought to be censored based on whether you like them or not. You see, I don't protest. I'm not out to judge anybody. I don't try to shut anybody down. I'm for free speech. I'm not a conservative. I don't attack people's spouses. I don't try to shut their movies down. I'm not a right-winger. Me, I'm for free speech.
CARLSON: Why is the left trying to shut this down -- James.
CARVILLE: I think the argument that they're making is if they're trying to circumvent the campaign finance law -- I don't know if it is or is not. It's where the money comes from, is quite another thing.
CARLSON: Right, OK.
CARVILLE: Yesterday President George W. Bush spoke via satellite to the annual meeting of a Southern Baptist convention and he used the opportunity to slap down Nancy Reagan. Before Ronald Reagan's death, Nancy Reagan called for President Bush to loosen the ridiculous restrictions he placed on using stem cells in research into diseases like Alzheimer's.
58 senators agree with Nancy Reagan and have recently signed a letter asking Mr. Bush to reconsider the rules. President Bush, however, wouldn't dare upset his right-wing base, so he told Nancy Reagan she got a lot. President Bush also used the speech to celebrate his efforts to make abortion illegal and to renew his calls to write discrimination into the Constitution by banning same-sex marriage.
The more President Bush gives speeches like this, the more united America becomes. United in opinion that it is time for this divider to go.
CARLSON: Really? I don't think you're being fair? There are many people, many religious people, many secular people, who think we ought to stop before we create life just in order to destroy it. It's a big deal, and your effort to blow over it by using phrases like "right-wing base" or whatever, I'm sorry, James. There's a legitimate disagreement. I'm not going to overstep you.
CARVILLE: This man is trying to use religion as a way to get elected. What he ought to do is beyond on that, and he ought to leave these gay folks alone. They're good people. If they want to get married, it's their business.
CARLSON: I'm saying, no matter how many people applaud for the dumb things you just said, there's a legitimate debate out there and you can't squelch it by your barking.
CARVILLE: It's not a legitimate debate. Research comes first.
CARLSON: Well, there are enough kids in daycare in this country, but the John Kerry for President campaign doesn't think there are enough. That is the latest conclusion from that campaign, which announced today an initiative to add more than 1 million children to federal funded daycare programs.
"We need more daycare," Kerry explained, because parents need, quote, "peace of mind." "Peace of mind"? Well, of course, because as any parent knows, nothing gives you quite the peace of mind of knowing that your children are languishing with some government employer staring at a television set in a room full of strangers.
Let's be honest. Most of the time, daycare isn't good for children, not that anybody seems to care. It's usually a last resort. It is always depressing. And as a country, we ought to be looking at ways to make daycare unnecessary, not to expand it.
What would happen if John Kerry admitted that very, very simple and true statement, that daycare is sort of awful, frankly? Well, he's spend the rest of the year apologizing to feminists for saying it. So don't hold your breath.
It's true -- James.
CARVILLE: I don't know how to explain this to you, but every kid doesn't have a daddy whose a TV talk show host, and sometimes mothers have to work in order to make ends meet. Tucker, ain't everybody making as much as money as we do. They've got people out there that are trying to make it on $30,000 a year that need help with daycare. We have children that need help in this country. And bloviating TV hosts sucking up the power are not going to give it to them.
CARLSON: OK. Michael Moore wants you to see his movie. Should you bother? Will his celluloid rant have any impact on the race for president?
And if the movie doesn't do it for you, how about some cookie recipes from people who want to be the next first lady?
Stay tuned, CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Michael Moore's award-winning new movie "Fahrenheit 9/11" shows up in theaters next week. But if some conservatives get their way, you'll never get a chance to see it.
A California-based group called Move America Forward has started a campaign to intimidate theater owners into refusing to play the film. That sounds more like moving America backwards.
To debate what's happened to free speech, we're joined from Los Angeles by syndicated columnist Arianna Huffington and in San Francisco there's radio talk show host Melanie Morgan.
CARLSON: Welcome to you both. Arianna, thanks for joining us.
I'll say right up front, I haven't had the chance to see the movie. I will. But I don't want to debate the movie. I want to talk to you about Michael Moore, who I think since his first movie, "Roger and Me," which I thought was terrific, has become increasingly angry and nonsensical and has drifted into attacks not on President Bush so much, which I think is fair, but on the United States, which I think is not.
I want to read you a quote from "The New Yorker" this February 16. this is Michael Moore speaking to a group, to an audience in Britain, and I'm quoting now.
"You're stuck with being connected to this country of mine," that is America, "which is known for bringing sadness and misery to places around the globe. How does that feel? You don't want to turn into us -- a society where the ethic is me, me, me, me, me, f--- you."
I think that's an outrageous and outrageously unfair description of the United States, which I think is a great liberator around the world. Don't you agree?
ARIANNA HUFFINGTON, COLUMNIST: Well, certainly not a liberator in Iraq, judging by what's happening in the last few weeks.
And, you know, when you see that movie, you're going to see how patriotic it is. That movie is incredibly patriotic. There is one of the most moving scenes I have ever seen -- and I watched it with my 15-year-old daughter -- of a mother of a soldier, a conservative Democrat, as she called herself, a flag-waving patriot, who is talking about the sacrifice of her son for a war which was not necessary.
There is nothing unpatriotic in this movie. It is powerful and compelling.
CARLSON: Arianna, I'm not claiming, as you know, that there is anything unpatriotic in the movie. I haven't seen it. I merely wanted you to respond to that quote. But how about this one, if you won't respond to the first one, from the same "New Yorker" piece. This is Michael Moore again speaking abroad.
Quote, "I understand why the American public was fooled by the lies about Iraq. We live in a system of enforced ignorance. The way the media works, the way our education system works, it's all about keeping us stupid."
Again, that's an outrageous thing to say about the United States of America. The system is designed to keep us stupid?
HUFFINGTON: I'm very willing to defend both of his statements. The second statement that you read is clearly proven by all of the incredible effort to stop us from seeing the movie. If people trust us, why don't they let us hear the truth? Why don't they let us see the movie? Why don't they let us see the flag-covered coffins? Why don't they let us watch Ted Koppel read the names of the dead soldiers? What are they afraid of? That's the question you should be answering.
CARLSON: He read the names of the dead soldiers, Arianna, come on.
HUFFINGTON: Yes, but you know there were stations that tried to stop him.
CARVILLE: Ms. Morgan, I read about it, I didn't see it. You saw the movie. When you saw it, what was your reaction to this mother of this GI who was killed in Iraq? What was your reaction to that? I know -- in your viewing of this film that so offended you, how did you react to this mother?
MELANIE MORGAN, RADIO HOST: Well, James, as you know, because your producers already told you, I haven't seen the film yet. And the reason I haven't seen it yet is because the majority of America has not seen the movie, and the reason why the majority of America hasn't seen the movie is because it's only been screened for a handful of Hollywood liberals and elite media.
But I have been able to discern from the footage and from the information that is available by transcript on the Internet what the true intentions of Michael Moore are.
CARVILLE: Let me get this straight here, because I didn't believe them. I didn't think anybody would sit there and try to censor something they haven't seen.
So you are out here telling us that you don't want people to see a movie that you haven't even seen. I mean, do you think people are really that stupid?
MORGAN: James, I'm not saying anybody is stupid. What I'm saying is as an ordinary American, we have the right to go out in the public square and say shame on somebody who says that they are for our troops but instead they want more troops to die so that we can get out of Iraq so it won't turn into Vietnam. Now I don't consider that a patriotic statement.
(CROSSTALK)
MORGAN: Arianna, I didn't interrupt you. I'd like to finish my statement.
What I said was that I believe that our troops are very crucial to this war on terrorism. This war on terrorism is a turning point in history and for us and Hollywood to undermine what is going on there is dangerous and stupid.
(CROSSTALK)
HUFFINGTON: Can I just come in and interrupt, because what Melanie was saying is simply untrue.
There is absolutely nothing in the movie, and I have seen it, unlike you, Melanie, that implies in any way that Michael Moore is not defending the troops. On the contrary, what he's saying is that because...
(CROSSTALK)
MORGAN: Oh, really, Arianna? Let me interrupt you because we know that he embedded his producers into troops in Iraq and then used the "F word" to describe how they are bleeped because now he's got all of this footage about them.
HUFFINGTON: Absolutely false. I don't know where you get your information.
(CROSSTALK)
MORGAN: I get it from the same places you do. I read newspapers.
CARLSON: Now, wait, hold on. Arianna, I'm sorry to interrupt. I want to ask you a question about something that Michael Moore said about his feelings about the war and why he thinks this war was waged.
This is Michael Moore, again from February, describing why he thinks we went to war in Iraq. Quote, "Who is the beneficiary of this war," Moore asked an audience abroad. "Halliburton. Has anyone else benefited?"
"Israel," several voices in the crowd cried out.
From Michael Moore, quote, "It's all part of the same ball of wax, right? The oil companies, Israel, Halliburton."
So we went to war to benefit the Jewish state, Halliburton and the oil companies? Do you believe that, Arianna, or is that an irresponsible conspiracy theory?
HUFFINGTON: You know, Tucker, first of all, there is something fascinating here. You are clearly not willing to criticize this movie, so all you can do is go to old quotes from Michael Moore.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: It's pretty over the top for me to quote a man and ask you to respond to the quotes, which you're unwilling to do. I haven't seen the movie. I'm merely -- hold on, Arianna. I'm merely asking you to comment on his contention that we went to war to benefit Israel, the oil companies and Halliburton. What do you think of that statement, Arianna? It's a simple question.
HUFFINGTON: He actually said that -- he started by saying that we went to war partly because of oil. Nobody is disputing that and there is no question that Halliburton has benefited tremendously from what's happened.
CARLSON: And what about Israel, Arianna? What about Israel?
HUFFINGTON: And Israel, I don't believe that we went to war to defend Israel. That was a quote that came from members of the audience. But the point here, Tucker, is why are you refusing to say anything negative about the movie? That is really, really good news.
CARLSON: Because I haven't seen the movie, Arianna, that's why.
CARVILLE: Let me -- the ordinary Americans -- you're trying to prohibit ordinary Americans from going to see this, a movie that you haven't seen yourself, which would strike some people as being utterly ridiculous.
MORGAN: Is that a question or a statement -- James.
CARVILLE: It's a statement. And this is the question. If you really -- what you're doing, don't you understand, is, you're just going to make more and more people go see this movie. So are you more interested in helping yourself or helping America?
MORGAN: No.
CARVILLE: Because you certainly -- if you think this movie hurts America, if that's your view, I think free speech helps America, but call me a radical.
MORGAN: Well, yes, obviously I am intending, James, to stand in front of movie houses all across America and bar people from getting in to see Michael Moore's film. That's just preposterous and you know it.
CARVILLE: No, but you don't want them to show it. You're trying to bar the distributors from showing it.
MORGAN: What we are doing is trying to make sure that there is an alternative voice to Michael Moore. He has received millions of dollars and free publicity over the last free weeks about this movie, on ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, you name it, he's been everywhere, this month's "Playboy." But not one single ordinary American has been able to stand up and say, "Hey, we don't appreciate that crap that is being aimed at our troops because we support our troops, we love our troops, they're friends, families, brothers and sisters, and we're going to be there for them."
CARLSON: All right, Melanie, we're going to have to cut you off there, but we will be right back. We've got to take a commercial break.
Coming up in the RAPID FIRE, we'll ask our guests about Michael Moore's new theory about why we went to war in Afghanistan, a non- controversial war.
Also, should first ladies be judged by their cookie recipes? We think so. We're going to put recipes from Laura Bush and potential first lady Teresa Heinz-Kerry to the test.
Right after the break, what if one of Americas top Olympic stars sang about steroid abuse just weeks before the game?
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: It's time for RAPID FIRE. The questions and answers may be short, but at least our guests are allowed to say what they want. We're talking about conservative attempts to stifle Michael Moore with syndicated columnist Arianna Huffington and radio talk show host Melanie Morgan.
CARLSON: Arianna, you seem to be in complete agreement with everything Michael Moore says, so you'll probably agree with this, but I'm going to run it by you anyway. Michael Moore on why we went to war against the Taliban.
Quote, George Bush sent the troops in, quote, "so that his oil company friends could finally build their pipeline to Afghanistan."
Do you agree with that? Do you think that's why we want to war against the Taliban?
HUFFINGTON: You know what, Tucker? This is really a very interesting development. I came here to debate a movie I have seen. I did not come on the show to defend every single thing Michael Moore has said throughout his career.
And what is so interesting is that you, you should be debating Melanie, because clearly you do not think it's appropriate that Melanie and all her friends are trying to boycott a movie that they have not seen.
CARLSON: Arianna, you're not making sense. I'm just asking you a simple question. Come on, Arianna. Rise to the occasion. It's pretty simple. The movie is about the war, come on.
HUFFINGTON: Do you agree that the movie you have not seen should be boycotted? Can you answer me that question? You see, why can't you answer the question?
CARLSON: You've so confused me, Arianna, I give up.
HUFFINGTON: Why can't you answer the question? It's rather critical. That is the critical debate we're having right now.
CARLSON: Thanks for your contribution, Arianna, I really appreciate that.
CARVILLE: Do you agree with Mr. Carlson that the public's access to art should be determined by the likability and political views of the artist? I mean, should we just kind of say people should only watch art of people that we like or people we agree with, which seems to be Mr. Carlson's positions here.
MORGAN: You seem to be deliberately trying to confuse my position, James, and I'm not surprised, because the left usually does that.
What we are saying is Michael Moore has the perfect right to make this movie, and we have a perfect right to stand up in the public square and say no, we're not going to go, and we don't think anybody else should go, so shame on you, Michael.
CARLSON: All right, Melanie Morgan, from San Francisco, Arianna Huffington, from Los Angeles, greetings from the West Coast, East Coast, rather, whatever coast we're on.
Next we'll stick our hands into the political cookie jar and tell you which tastes better, the recipe from Laura Bush or the recipe from Teresa Heinz-Kerry. The future of the country may, indeed it does, hang in the balance.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Well, in 1992, as you'll remember, Hillary Clinton famously mocked women who stayed home and baked cookies instead of pursuing very important legal careers.
Well, in defense of cookie-baking moms, "Family Circle" magazine holds a first lady cookie cook off every four years, and God bless them. Laura Bush and Teresa Heinz-Kerry have submitted their recipes, which we and some members of our studio audience are going to sample. We don't know which cookie is which, although you viewers at home will be let in on the secret in a minute.
First up, cookie A, the pumpkin spice cookie. James, I invite you to try it. We have no idea who made this. A little dry, actually. I had high hopes for the pumpkin.
CARVILLE: Cleanse the pallet.
CARLSON: Next up, cookie B is the oatmeal chocolate chunk cookie. Indeed, quite chunky, and it looks like there are cranberries in there. You know what, James, I'm totally blown away. I went in thinking I was going pumpkin. Now I'm going oatmeal. That's my vote.
CARVILLE: I hate to say this, but I'm going to go with the pumpkin cookie.
CARLSON: Audience, who here liked the oatmeal cookie?
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: And now, who prefers the pumpkin cookie?
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: All right.
And indeed, Laura Bush wins by, what -- I have to say, it's the cranberries in Mrs. Bush's oatmeal cookie that I thought pulled it across the finish line.
CARVILLE: Pulled it across the finish, there you go. This is going to be the decider in this close election.
(CROSSTALK)
From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, swallowing, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again next time for yet more CROSSFIRE. See you tomorrow.
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