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CNN Crossfire
President Bush Names Nominee to Head CIA
Aired August 10, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: President Bush names his choice to lead the CIA, Congressman Porter Goss.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He's the right man to lead this important agency at this critical moment in our nation's history.
ANNOUNCER: But the political battle lines are already being drawn.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER: A person should not be the director of central intelligence who has acted in a very political way.
ANNOUNCER: Is Porter Goss the right choice at the right time?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
President Bush has decided to nominate a Republican congressman to head the CIA. Is this the answer to the big problems we face in our intelligence community or just another partisan solution?
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: President Bush says Porter Goss is the right man at the right time, but Democrats are playing politics, claiming Congressman Goss is too partisan. We'll debate that just ahead.
But, first, the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Faithful viewers of CROSSFIRE have seen my co-hosts and their guests on the left recite the mantra that President Bush misled the country into attacking Iraq. John Kerry has joined that fun for months. But under pressure from the Bush campaign to say whether he would still vote for the Bush Iraqi war resolution, Senator Kerry now says, yes, we would.
Today, the president taunted his opponent for executing the double switch. Did he? Let's review the Kerry line, voting yes to go to war, voting no on funds for the war, opposing Bush going to war, and now saying he would still vote to go to war. Now, how can you possibly call this man a flip-flopper?
CARVILLE: Well, the truth of the matter is, it's very explainable. He voted to authorize it, at which time the head of the U.N. inspectors out there, which this president kicked out to go to war. And the thing with Senator Kerry is saying that if he looks back and he says the vote to authorize got us in a point where we could have had the inspectors and avoided the war.
NOVAK: James, you sound as silly as he does.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: And I'll tell you this. If you were advising him, I cannot believe that John Kerry would get into this mess of saying, yes, even though I have been attacking him and the party is against him, I would still vote for him.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: He didn't -- he didn't -- he didn't go to war.
John Kerry, Tim Russert, Chris Matthews, Katie Couric, CBS, NBC are all communists. Hillary Clinton is a lesbian fat hog with fake hair. Al and Tipper Gore are terrorists who are part of the Taliban. The pope is senile. And pedophilia is fine with him as long as it's not reported in the liberal press. If you think all this sounds nutty, well, it is.
According to the organization Media Matters For America, all this has been written by Jerome Corsi. Why do we care what Jerome Corsi says? Well, we don't. But as co-author of the book "Unfit for Command" about John Kerry and his service in Vietnam, some people are making the mistake of taking him seriously. In the world of putrid right-wing pond scum, Corsi is one of the biggest bottom-feeders of them all.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, in the first place I don't know whether your source is correct in saying that.
CARVILLE: The AP has got it. Of course it's correct. He's acknowledged it.
NOVAK: And, secondly, I just notice, whenever a criticism is made of anybody like your pal Clinton...
(CROSSTALK) NOVAK: First of all, let me talk and...
CARVILLE: Go ahead.
NOVAK: And wait a minute. Just be quiet for a minute.
CARVILLE: Go ahead.
NOVAK: Whenever a criticism is made, all you do is attack the person who makes it, instead of answering the very meticulously researched reports on John Kerry in that book.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: You think the pope is senile?
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: Do you think -- do you think -- do you think that Clinton is a fat hog? Do you think that Tim Russert is a communist? I mean, come on.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: This guy
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He wrote a book.
NOVAK: I'm talking about John Kerry.
George W. Bush has been under attack all year for declaring an end to major combat in Iraq. Well, wait. Now comes retired General Tommy Franks to take the blame. Franks, who commanded U.S. forces in Iraq, said -- quote -- "That's my fault that George W. Bush said what he said on the 1st of May last year, just because I asked him to" -- end quote.
The general wanted to declare the fighting over in hopes other countries would send troops to Iraq. You can hardly blame the president for following the advice of his general. Sadly, the Europeans did not send any troops to Iraq, and they won't unless they get their price.
CARVILLE: See what that says, Bob? The buck stops here.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Not with the generals in the Army, with the president of the United States of America. You know that. George Bush ought to quit hiding behind Tommy Franks' uniform and acknowledge that he is the one. That came out of his mouth and nobody made him say it.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: General Franks volunteered this. This didn't come -- wait a minute -- didn't come from President Bush.
CARVILLE: Oh, I'm sorry. It came out of General Franks' mouth.
NOVAK: It came from General -- it came from General Franks. On a book promotion tour, that's what he said.
CARVILLE: Who said it, General Franks or President Bush?
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: The thing is, when General Franks says to the president, combat is over, do you think he is supposed to say, you're a liar, General?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: No, the president has to exercise judgment.
Other than its love of deficits, stupid wars and tax cuts for the wealthy, it's hard to figure out what the Republican Party stands for. After excellent reporting my by co-host Robert Novak, we've been told the party is trying avoid immigration, gay marriage and stem cell research by sweeping them under the rug during hearings on the GOP platform.
Mr. Novak and I don't agree on much, but he really does deserve credit for bringing out the fact the Republican Party shouldn't be a tool for the top 1 percenters, rather than the coal, pharmaceutical, tobacco companies, anyone else writing a check. Republicans have address those who care about fundamental issues they're trying to avoid.
Congratulations, Bob.
NOVAK: No thank you for that compliment.
Let me -- as a point of personal privilege, I didn't mention anything about coal manufacturers, didn't mention anything about pharmaceutical manufacturers. What I did say, if you had forgotten when we were in Boston, was that this Democratic platform was a sham. It didn't say anything. And I wrote a column saying the Republicans shouldn't copy the Democrats. They should be in their old tradition of debating everything. And I still hope they will.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: What's their position on immigration?
NOVAK: They should debate it out. They should debate it out.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: What's the Democrats' position?
CARVILLE: I'm just congratulating you, Bob. I'm congratulating you for superb journalism. (CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: I don't want your congratulations.
CARVILLE: You're a great journalist.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: You spoke the truth for once in your life. A broken clock is right twice a day. You're right once a day. You're not quite as good as a broken clock.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK (voice-over): Congratulations like that will ruin me.
President Bush has named his choice to lead the CIA. Will Porter Goss' nomination find smooth sailing or will endlessly partisan Democrats torpedo this appointment in time of war?
And he saved the world in a movie. Does Will Smith now aspire to an even more difficult role in the world of politics?
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Get ahead of the CROSSFIRE. Sign up for CROSSFIRE's daily "Political Alert" e-mail. You'll get a preview of each day's show, plus an inside look at the day's political headlines. Just go to CNN.com/CROSSFIRE and sign up today.
Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to CROSSFIRE at the George Washington University, call 202-994-8CNN or visit our Web site. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: We're talking about President Bush's choice for CIA director, Republican Congressman Porter Goss of Florida. The Democrats are already trying to turn this decision into another attack on President Bush.
In the CROSSFIRE, Congressman Harold Ford, Democrat of Tennessee, and former Congressman Bob Walker, Republican of Pennsylvania.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Congressman Walker, as you know, the president is a big defender of the CIA and the status quo. And I want to show you what he said in July of 2003. This was some five months after we hadn't found the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. And could we just show you the president on the quality of the intelligence that he was getting?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Let me first say that, you know, I think the intelligence I get is darn good intelligence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Now, the president says that the CIA is doing -- he gets darned good intelligence. Isn't this Porter Goss nomination a reaffirmation of the status quo, that the 9/11 Commission is wrong and that the CIA is doing fine and it doesn't need to be revamped and its status should be protected at all costs?
BOB WALKER (R), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: Absolutely not.
I like Porter Goss a lot. I've seen him in action. He takes a very calm, reasoned approach to things. And he brings a great deal of experience. And if you would look at that experience, you will find out that he's been very critical of the CIA when criticism was needed. And he's been somebody who has talked about reform. He has served on a number of commissions that dealt with reform.
As chairman of the committee, he has done a lot of reformist steps and taken that to the CIA. I think his experience, both the political experience and the CIA experience, the ability to bring the experience as an operative, as well as somebody in the political process, is in fact a strength that he will have toward upgrading and strengthening the CIA.
CARVILLE: We just saw the president defending the CIA and defending the intelligence that he got.
WALKER: Well, you pull one thing out of context somewhere
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: That was completely in context. It was when he was asked about the intelligence he got in the Iraqi war.
WALKER: The fact is that the president has most recently said that he's going to implement the 9/11 Commission's recommendations as to changes in the intelligence community.
We all recognize that human intelligence needs to be rebuilt. We recognize that there is a need for more look-down capabilities, more listening capabilities from both the government sector and from the commercial sector. And blending those all together to make the intelligence community more reasonable is exactly what Porter Goss can bring to the whole mix.
So I think this is a guy who is eminently well qualified for the job and ought to be supported by everybody on Capitol Hill.
(APPLAUSE) NOVAK: Congressman Ford, you are not a member of the Senate, yet, so you don't...
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: He will be.
NOVAK: So you don't get a vote, but everybody knows you're running for the Senate in 2006 and you may have that vote. So I would like you to look at one of your possible future colleagues, one of the meanest, toughest Democrats in the Senate, Charles Schumer of New York. Let's listen to what he has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: I served with him in the House. He's a fine guy. He cares about intelligence services. I like him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: What does that tell you about Congressman Goss? Will you as a senator just automatically have your knee-jerk and vote against him?
REP. HAROLD FORD (D), TENNESSEE: Thanks for the kind words today right now and earlier today, I might add.
It took Schumer a little bit out of context, too. I watched the interview. And I think what he went on to say was, we need an intelligence director who is committed to the reforms laid out and the recommendations laid out by the 9/11 Commission.
I would slightly correct my colleague and friend Mr. Walker. The president has demonstrated some support or evidenced some support for recommendations made by the commission, but has not allowed for the kind of budget and hiring and firing and command-and-control authority that...
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: ... the debate, though. At the moment, what
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: ... into the right kind of solution.
FORD: No doubt about it. But that's what I'm looking for from my colleague. And I have great respect for Porter Goss. I agree with everything...
NOVAK: Would you vote for him?
FORD: I don't have a vote, but I certainly would have...
NOVAK: Would you? FORD: If he were committed to the recommendations made by the commission...
NOVAK: No, I want to know. Would you vote for him?
(CROSSTALK)
FORD: If I were on the committee, I'd want to know were my colleague, how committed, how wedded are you to giving one person control over the 15 different intelligence agencies within the federal government control with hiring and firing, budget and command-and- control?
If the CIA director had had that years ago, we probably would have killed bin Laden before. The question we have now before us, are we prepared to make the reforms? And that's what I'm most concerned about, not the individual.
(CROSSTALK)
FORD: Because the right individual with the wrong structure doesn't work and the right structure with the wrong individual doesn't work. We need the right structure and the right individual in this time.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Mr. Ford, I would like you to look at what his colleagues in the Senate -- I know you don't know much about the Senate yet. But...
FORD: I am going to be a quick learner, though, if given the chance.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: But it's -- what you try to do is, you try to look at the man's character, at his ability. And I'd like to read to you what his two Democratic colleagues, U.S. senators from Florida, say.
Senator Bob Graham, a former chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee: "He combines insider's experience from his 10 years as an agent with the perspective of oversight conducted by the House Intelligence Committee."
Senator Bill Nelson, another person very active in national security: "I'd recommend that the president give serious" -- this was on June 4 -- "serious consideration to replacing Tenet for the duration of this term with someone knowledgeable of intelligence issues, someone like Porter Goss."
FORD: I'm not opposed to Mr. Goss. You just asked, would I support him, Mr. Novak. And those are the questions I would ask. I wouldn't give a Democrat my vote without asking him or her how committed they are to making the kind of reforms that this commission, which has spent months studying this -- and I might add, we're three years, almost three years, after 9/11.
CARVILLE: I want to go back to the covert intelligence, when actually you talk about human intelligence. We had a lot of human intelligence leading up to the war in Iraq, and particularly in the person of one Mr. Ahmad Chalabi, who the administration relied heavily on, who the Pentagon brought over.
And he was providing human intelligence left and right that were telling us that they had weapons of mass destruction, that we're guaranteed that we're going to find them, telling us that there was this collaborative effort between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein. And don't you think that somehow or another people's judgment needs -- why would these people believe and rely on a huckster and a shyster like Ahmad Chalabi?
WALKER: Well, first of all, one of the reasons why we relied on single-point intelligence is because we don't have a lot of intelligence flowing in. The ground was cut out from underneath human intelligence over a period of years, James.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: His whole network.
WALKER: Well, but the fact is, the fact is that you shouldn't be in a position where only Chalabi's information is the only thing that you're relying upon.
You ought to have a broad swathe of human intelligence, so that you can sort out whether somebody's bringing you the goods.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Did they exercise good judgment on Chalabi?
WALKER: No, for years, for years, the human intelligence gathering capability of the United States was undercut. The budgets were cut and we had
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You had all of Chalabi's network. You had all of his family.
WALKER: But Chalabi may not have been the only source we should have been relying upon.
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: We ought to have had other sources James. And we didn't have those because
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: We had plenty. We had Curveball. We had Curveball. NOVAK: Congressman Ford, there's some criticism that the president should permit John McLaughlin, who is a professional CIA guy, the acting director, to continue to the election. Do you agree with that, they should let him continue?
FORD: That's the president's choice, if he has the confidence...
NOVAK: Well, what's your opinion?
FORD: I'm a believer that politics shouldn't get in the way of us picking a good director. And if the president feels comfortable with Porter Goss, if he's committed to making the changes that the 9/11 Commission has recommended, then I'm for Porter Goss.
I'm for bringing the Congress back, Mr. Novak, here over the next few days, while we're on break, to look seriously at what's been recommended, to move legislatively on what we have to, to make the changes that the commission has recommended. And what the president can do by executive order, he should do without the Congress. And up to this point, he's simply not done that.
NOVAK: You know, I came to this town, Congressman Ford, about 10 days before you were born. And I just don't know a precedent for an independent commission laying out some complicated proposals and Congress saying, OK, let's pass it. Pass it right tomorrow. We don't have to look at these things. We don't have to amend them.
FORD: Can I ask you this? Of the time you've been here, have you ever seen a disaster as great as 9/11 and a president and a Congress waiting as long as we did to appoint a commission to explore what went wrong?
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: No, let me explain something to you.
FORD: This is not partisan. These are just facts.
NOVAK: No. On this program, I ask the questions and you answer them.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Just a minute. I want to ask you that question. Do you think you should just automatically rubber-stamp these complicated proposals?
FORD: We've given them all the time to study it. We should be back. And if it takes us a week or a month to research and explore what they have put on the table, we should be back doing that and should vote on it as soon as we finish
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Some of the things that people are saying -- I would be one of them -- that, with just such a short time to go to the election and the president so shot his credibility that he should put someone interim in there.
And let me show you what the public thinks about the president's honesty and trustworthiness. More honest and trustworthy -- this a CNN poll that the Republicans faxed all over Washington.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Senator Kerry, Americans say 48 percent, he's more trustworthy, President Bush, 43. Don't you think, given the president's problems with his trustworthiness and his credibility and his integrity, that he should just put an interim person in there and let the voters validate this choice in November and let's do it without the assistance of the Supreme Court and take this -- and then, if he actually is elected president of the United States, then he can appoint who he wants to and we should all rally behind him.
WALKER: James, I think that would be a terrible mistake.
The fact is that we need somebody who is in full command of the CIA at the present time.
CARVILLE: You could put an acting...
WALKER: The intelligence gathering of this country has to go on.
CARVILLE: Right.
WALKER: We are faced with a very determined enemy.
CARVILLE: I agree.
WALKER: And I think that having somebody of the capability of a Porter Goss willing to take on this job on a permanent basis at this time is a very good thing.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Well, just put him after the election, when the president has restored his credibility.
NOVAK: We're going to take a break.
And next, in "Rapid Fire," I'll ask the honorable Harold Ford if he thinks his leader in the House of Representatives has gone too far in opposing Porter Goss.
And there's been a dramatic development in the Kobe Bryant case that may have a big effect on the outcome. Wolf Blitzer has the story right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, President Bush nominates Congressman Porter Goss for the CIA director. What are the chances for confirmation?
The woman who accuses NBA star Kobe Bryant of rape files a civil suit. We'll tell you how that could affect the criminal case.
And Donald Trump is losing his job as CEO of Trump Casinos. Was the gaming business a losing bet?
Those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Time for "Rapid Fire," where we serve up questions hot and fast.
We're talking about the battle that is already under way over President Bush's choice for CIA director, Congressman Porter Goss of Florida.
With us, Democratic Congressman Harold Ford of Tennessee and the great city of Memphis, Tennessee, and Republican Congressman Bob Walker from the great city of Lancaster, Pennsylvania.
Notice I didn't say Lancaster, Pennsylvania.
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: You got it right.
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: ... pronunciation.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Congratulations, all around.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Congressman Ford, your leader in the House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi, very, very negative about Porter Goss, says he may be too partisan. Do you think he's too partisan?
FORD: The hearings will reveal all of those things. The tough questions should be asked. I like him. I respect him. And if he's committed to making the changes that the 9/11 Commission has recommended, he'd have my support.
CARVILLE: All right, Congressman Walker, Congressman Goss put out a statement on the Bush-Cheney reelection thing attacking Senator Kerry. Do you think it was really wise for someone who knew that they were being up for CIA director to engage in political, partisan hack attacks on Kerry when the country so needs to come together and have a real serious professional at the CIA?
WALKER: Well, I think that it's been a tradition in some cases for politicians to be involved in the CIA.
I remember Bill Casey, who was Ronald Reagan's...
NOVAK: Reagan's CIA director.
WALKER: Yes, one of the greatest CIA directors of modern times, who was also Reagan's campaign manager, who said some probably tough things about the Democrats
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: So it doesn't bother you that he's out there attacking Senator Kerry?
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: No, it seems to me his political experience is a very good thing here, because that political experience will help him maybe get some of the reforms on Capitol Hill. It's not just the administration
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You asked your question.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I just wanted to get him
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Governor Kean, the chairman of the 9/11 Commission, and Congressman Hamilton, the vice chairman, both think that Congressman Goss is fine on implementing their recommendations. Isn't that good enough for you?
FORD: I want to hear him say it. I think President Reagan, the late, great President Reagan said, you trust them, but you want to verify. So I want to hear him before those hearings say what you just said.
CARVILLE: Congressman, I know that it doesn't bother you that he's so partisan, but is it fair for the Democrats to ask him his opinions on the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission and how he would do it, as Congressman Ford said he would do?
WALKER: Sure. That's very fair. And I don't regard Porter Goss as a partisan.
(BELL RINGING)
WALKER: He's had wide bipartisan respect on Capitol Hill. And I think he'll do a good job of explaining the 9/11 issues.
NOVAK: Bob Walker, thank you very much.
Harold Ford, thank you.
CARVILLE: Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
FORD: Thank you.
NOVAK: He made his name in music and the movies. Now actor Will Smith is weighing in on the political scene. We'll tell you what has got his attention next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Just what the political arena needs, another celebrity who thinks he knows better.
The rapper and actor who helped save planet Earth from alien invaders in "Independence Day" tells a Swedish newspaper he could be president of the United States if he wanted to. But Will Smith says it's not the job he'd want with the way things are today. Smith, who is now starring in "I, Robot," acts practically like a left-wing Hollywood robot. He's going to meet with John Kerry when he gets back home and may campaign for him. That ought to scare the dickens out of George W.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: We've got more than that to scare him.
From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
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Aired August 10, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: President Bush names his choice to lead the CIA, Congressman Porter Goss.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He's the right man to lead this important agency at this critical moment in our nation's history.
ANNOUNCER: But the political battle lines are already being drawn.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER: A person should not be the director of central intelligence who has acted in a very political way.
ANNOUNCER: Is Porter Goss the right choice at the right time?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
President Bush has decided to nominate a Republican congressman to head the CIA. Is this the answer to the big problems we face in our intelligence community or just another partisan solution?
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: President Bush says Porter Goss is the right man at the right time, but Democrats are playing politics, claiming Congressman Goss is too partisan. We'll debate that just ahead.
But, first, the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Faithful viewers of CROSSFIRE have seen my co-hosts and their guests on the left recite the mantra that President Bush misled the country into attacking Iraq. John Kerry has joined that fun for months. But under pressure from the Bush campaign to say whether he would still vote for the Bush Iraqi war resolution, Senator Kerry now says, yes, we would.
Today, the president taunted his opponent for executing the double switch. Did he? Let's review the Kerry line, voting yes to go to war, voting no on funds for the war, opposing Bush going to war, and now saying he would still vote to go to war. Now, how can you possibly call this man a flip-flopper?
CARVILLE: Well, the truth of the matter is, it's very explainable. He voted to authorize it, at which time the head of the U.N. inspectors out there, which this president kicked out to go to war. And the thing with Senator Kerry is saying that if he looks back and he says the vote to authorize got us in a point where we could have had the inspectors and avoided the war.
NOVAK: James, you sound as silly as he does.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: And I'll tell you this. If you were advising him, I cannot believe that John Kerry would get into this mess of saying, yes, even though I have been attacking him and the party is against him, I would still vote for him.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: He didn't -- he didn't -- he didn't go to war.
John Kerry, Tim Russert, Chris Matthews, Katie Couric, CBS, NBC are all communists. Hillary Clinton is a lesbian fat hog with fake hair. Al and Tipper Gore are terrorists who are part of the Taliban. The pope is senile. And pedophilia is fine with him as long as it's not reported in the liberal press. If you think all this sounds nutty, well, it is.
According to the organization Media Matters For America, all this has been written by Jerome Corsi. Why do we care what Jerome Corsi says? Well, we don't. But as co-author of the book "Unfit for Command" about John Kerry and his service in Vietnam, some people are making the mistake of taking him seriously. In the world of putrid right-wing pond scum, Corsi is one of the biggest bottom-feeders of them all.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, in the first place I don't know whether your source is correct in saying that.
CARVILLE: The AP has got it. Of course it's correct. He's acknowledged it.
NOVAK: And, secondly, I just notice, whenever a criticism is made of anybody like your pal Clinton...
(CROSSTALK) NOVAK: First of all, let me talk and...
CARVILLE: Go ahead.
NOVAK: And wait a minute. Just be quiet for a minute.
CARVILLE: Go ahead.
NOVAK: Whenever a criticism is made, all you do is attack the person who makes it, instead of answering the very meticulously researched reports on John Kerry in that book.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: You think the pope is senile?
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: Do you think -- do you think -- do you think that Clinton is a fat hog? Do you think that Tim Russert is a communist? I mean, come on.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: This guy
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He wrote a book.
NOVAK: I'm talking about John Kerry.
George W. Bush has been under attack all year for declaring an end to major combat in Iraq. Well, wait. Now comes retired General Tommy Franks to take the blame. Franks, who commanded U.S. forces in Iraq, said -- quote -- "That's my fault that George W. Bush said what he said on the 1st of May last year, just because I asked him to" -- end quote.
The general wanted to declare the fighting over in hopes other countries would send troops to Iraq. You can hardly blame the president for following the advice of his general. Sadly, the Europeans did not send any troops to Iraq, and they won't unless they get their price.
CARVILLE: See what that says, Bob? The buck stops here.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Not with the generals in the Army, with the president of the United States of America. You know that. George Bush ought to quit hiding behind Tommy Franks' uniform and acknowledge that he is the one. That came out of his mouth and nobody made him say it.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: General Franks volunteered this. This didn't come -- wait a minute -- didn't come from President Bush.
CARVILLE: Oh, I'm sorry. It came out of General Franks' mouth.
NOVAK: It came from General -- it came from General Franks. On a book promotion tour, that's what he said.
CARVILLE: Who said it, General Franks or President Bush?
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: The thing is, when General Franks says to the president, combat is over, do you think he is supposed to say, you're a liar, General?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: No, the president has to exercise judgment.
Other than its love of deficits, stupid wars and tax cuts for the wealthy, it's hard to figure out what the Republican Party stands for. After excellent reporting my by co-host Robert Novak, we've been told the party is trying avoid immigration, gay marriage and stem cell research by sweeping them under the rug during hearings on the GOP platform.
Mr. Novak and I don't agree on much, but he really does deserve credit for bringing out the fact the Republican Party shouldn't be a tool for the top 1 percenters, rather than the coal, pharmaceutical, tobacco companies, anyone else writing a check. Republicans have address those who care about fundamental issues they're trying to avoid.
Congratulations, Bob.
NOVAK: No thank you for that compliment.
Let me -- as a point of personal privilege, I didn't mention anything about coal manufacturers, didn't mention anything about pharmaceutical manufacturers. What I did say, if you had forgotten when we were in Boston, was that this Democratic platform was a sham. It didn't say anything. And I wrote a column saying the Republicans shouldn't copy the Democrats. They should be in their old tradition of debating everything. And I still hope they will.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: What's their position on immigration?
NOVAK: They should debate it out. They should debate it out.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: What's the Democrats' position?
CARVILLE: I'm just congratulating you, Bob. I'm congratulating you for superb journalism. (CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: I don't want your congratulations.
CARVILLE: You're a great journalist.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: You spoke the truth for once in your life. A broken clock is right twice a day. You're right once a day. You're not quite as good as a broken clock.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK (voice-over): Congratulations like that will ruin me.
President Bush has named his choice to lead the CIA. Will Porter Goss' nomination find smooth sailing or will endlessly partisan Democrats torpedo this appointment in time of war?
And he saved the world in a movie. Does Will Smith now aspire to an even more difficult role in the world of politics?
(APPLAUSE)
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: We're talking about President Bush's choice for CIA director, Republican Congressman Porter Goss of Florida. The Democrats are already trying to turn this decision into another attack on President Bush.
In the CROSSFIRE, Congressman Harold Ford, Democrat of Tennessee, and former Congressman Bob Walker, Republican of Pennsylvania.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Congressman Walker, as you know, the president is a big defender of the CIA and the status quo. And I want to show you what he said in July of 2003. This was some five months after we hadn't found the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. And could we just show you the president on the quality of the intelligence that he was getting?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Let me first say that, you know, I think the intelligence I get is darn good intelligence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Now, the president says that the CIA is doing -- he gets darned good intelligence. Isn't this Porter Goss nomination a reaffirmation of the status quo, that the 9/11 Commission is wrong and that the CIA is doing fine and it doesn't need to be revamped and its status should be protected at all costs?
BOB WALKER (R), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: Absolutely not.
I like Porter Goss a lot. I've seen him in action. He takes a very calm, reasoned approach to things. And he brings a great deal of experience. And if you would look at that experience, you will find out that he's been very critical of the CIA when criticism was needed. And he's been somebody who has talked about reform. He has served on a number of commissions that dealt with reform.
As chairman of the committee, he has done a lot of reformist steps and taken that to the CIA. I think his experience, both the political experience and the CIA experience, the ability to bring the experience as an operative, as well as somebody in the political process, is in fact a strength that he will have toward upgrading and strengthening the CIA.
CARVILLE: We just saw the president defending the CIA and defending the intelligence that he got.
WALKER: Well, you pull one thing out of context somewhere
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: That was completely in context. It was when he was asked about the intelligence he got in the Iraqi war.
WALKER: The fact is that the president has most recently said that he's going to implement the 9/11 Commission's recommendations as to changes in the intelligence community.
We all recognize that human intelligence needs to be rebuilt. We recognize that there is a need for more look-down capabilities, more listening capabilities from both the government sector and from the commercial sector. And blending those all together to make the intelligence community more reasonable is exactly what Porter Goss can bring to the whole mix.
So I think this is a guy who is eminently well qualified for the job and ought to be supported by everybody on Capitol Hill.
(APPLAUSE) NOVAK: Congressman Ford, you are not a member of the Senate, yet, so you don't...
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: He will be.
NOVAK: So you don't get a vote, but everybody knows you're running for the Senate in 2006 and you may have that vote. So I would like you to look at one of your possible future colleagues, one of the meanest, toughest Democrats in the Senate, Charles Schumer of New York. Let's listen to what he has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: I served with him in the House. He's a fine guy. He cares about intelligence services. I like him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: What does that tell you about Congressman Goss? Will you as a senator just automatically have your knee-jerk and vote against him?
REP. HAROLD FORD (D), TENNESSEE: Thanks for the kind words today right now and earlier today, I might add.
It took Schumer a little bit out of context, too. I watched the interview. And I think what he went on to say was, we need an intelligence director who is committed to the reforms laid out and the recommendations laid out by the 9/11 Commission.
I would slightly correct my colleague and friend Mr. Walker. The president has demonstrated some support or evidenced some support for recommendations made by the commission, but has not allowed for the kind of budget and hiring and firing and command-and-control authority that...
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: ... the debate, though. At the moment, what
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: ... into the right kind of solution.
FORD: No doubt about it. But that's what I'm looking for from my colleague. And I have great respect for Porter Goss. I agree with everything...
NOVAK: Would you vote for him?
FORD: I don't have a vote, but I certainly would have...
NOVAK: Would you? FORD: If he were committed to the recommendations made by the commission...
NOVAK: No, I want to know. Would you vote for him?
(CROSSTALK)
FORD: If I were on the committee, I'd want to know were my colleague, how committed, how wedded are you to giving one person control over the 15 different intelligence agencies within the federal government control with hiring and firing, budget and command-and- control?
If the CIA director had had that years ago, we probably would have killed bin Laden before. The question we have now before us, are we prepared to make the reforms? And that's what I'm most concerned about, not the individual.
(CROSSTALK)
FORD: Because the right individual with the wrong structure doesn't work and the right structure with the wrong individual doesn't work. We need the right structure and the right individual in this time.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Mr. Ford, I would like you to look at what his colleagues in the Senate -- I know you don't know much about the Senate yet. But...
FORD: I am going to be a quick learner, though, if given the chance.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: But it's -- what you try to do is, you try to look at the man's character, at his ability. And I'd like to read to you what his two Democratic colleagues, U.S. senators from Florida, say.
Senator Bob Graham, a former chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee: "He combines insider's experience from his 10 years as an agent with the perspective of oversight conducted by the House Intelligence Committee."
Senator Bill Nelson, another person very active in national security: "I'd recommend that the president give serious" -- this was on June 4 -- "serious consideration to replacing Tenet for the duration of this term with someone knowledgeable of intelligence issues, someone like Porter Goss."
FORD: I'm not opposed to Mr. Goss. You just asked, would I support him, Mr. Novak. And those are the questions I would ask. I wouldn't give a Democrat my vote without asking him or her how committed they are to making the kind of reforms that this commission, which has spent months studying this -- and I might add, we're three years, almost three years, after 9/11.
CARVILLE: I want to go back to the covert intelligence, when actually you talk about human intelligence. We had a lot of human intelligence leading up to the war in Iraq, and particularly in the person of one Mr. Ahmad Chalabi, who the administration relied heavily on, who the Pentagon brought over.
And he was providing human intelligence left and right that were telling us that they had weapons of mass destruction, that we're guaranteed that we're going to find them, telling us that there was this collaborative effort between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein. And don't you think that somehow or another people's judgment needs -- why would these people believe and rely on a huckster and a shyster like Ahmad Chalabi?
WALKER: Well, first of all, one of the reasons why we relied on single-point intelligence is because we don't have a lot of intelligence flowing in. The ground was cut out from underneath human intelligence over a period of years, James.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: His whole network.
WALKER: Well, but the fact is, the fact is that you shouldn't be in a position where only Chalabi's information is the only thing that you're relying upon.
You ought to have a broad swathe of human intelligence, so that you can sort out whether somebody's bringing you the goods.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Did they exercise good judgment on Chalabi?
WALKER: No, for years, for years, the human intelligence gathering capability of the United States was undercut. The budgets were cut and we had
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You had all of Chalabi's network. You had all of his family.
WALKER: But Chalabi may not have been the only source we should have been relying upon.
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: We ought to have had other sources James. And we didn't have those because
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: We had plenty. We had Curveball. We had Curveball. NOVAK: Congressman Ford, there's some criticism that the president should permit John McLaughlin, who is a professional CIA guy, the acting director, to continue to the election. Do you agree with that, they should let him continue?
FORD: That's the president's choice, if he has the confidence...
NOVAK: Well, what's your opinion?
FORD: I'm a believer that politics shouldn't get in the way of us picking a good director. And if the president feels comfortable with Porter Goss, if he's committed to making the changes that the 9/11 Commission has recommended, then I'm for Porter Goss.
I'm for bringing the Congress back, Mr. Novak, here over the next few days, while we're on break, to look seriously at what's been recommended, to move legislatively on what we have to, to make the changes that the commission has recommended. And what the president can do by executive order, he should do without the Congress. And up to this point, he's simply not done that.
NOVAK: You know, I came to this town, Congressman Ford, about 10 days before you were born. And I just don't know a precedent for an independent commission laying out some complicated proposals and Congress saying, OK, let's pass it. Pass it right tomorrow. We don't have to look at these things. We don't have to amend them.
FORD: Can I ask you this? Of the time you've been here, have you ever seen a disaster as great as 9/11 and a president and a Congress waiting as long as we did to appoint a commission to explore what went wrong?
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: No, let me explain something to you.
FORD: This is not partisan. These are just facts.
NOVAK: No. On this program, I ask the questions and you answer them.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Just a minute. I want to ask you that question. Do you think you should just automatically rubber-stamp these complicated proposals?
FORD: We've given them all the time to study it. We should be back. And if it takes us a week or a month to research and explore what they have put on the table, we should be back doing that and should vote on it as soon as we finish
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Some of the things that people are saying -- I would be one of them -- that, with just such a short time to go to the election and the president so shot his credibility that he should put someone interim in there.
And let me show you what the public thinks about the president's honesty and trustworthiness. More honest and trustworthy -- this a CNN poll that the Republicans faxed all over Washington.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Senator Kerry, Americans say 48 percent, he's more trustworthy, President Bush, 43. Don't you think, given the president's problems with his trustworthiness and his credibility and his integrity, that he should just put an interim person in there and let the voters validate this choice in November and let's do it without the assistance of the Supreme Court and take this -- and then, if he actually is elected president of the United States, then he can appoint who he wants to and we should all rally behind him.
WALKER: James, I think that would be a terrible mistake.
The fact is that we need somebody who is in full command of the CIA at the present time.
CARVILLE: You could put an acting...
WALKER: The intelligence gathering of this country has to go on.
CARVILLE: Right.
WALKER: We are faced with a very determined enemy.
CARVILLE: I agree.
WALKER: And I think that having somebody of the capability of a Porter Goss willing to take on this job on a permanent basis at this time is a very good thing.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Well, just put him after the election, when the president has restored his credibility.
NOVAK: We're going to take a break.
And next, in "Rapid Fire," I'll ask the honorable Harold Ford if he thinks his leader in the House of Representatives has gone too far in opposing Porter Goss.
And there's been a dramatic development in the Kobe Bryant case that may have a big effect on the outcome. Wolf Blitzer has the story right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, President Bush nominates Congressman Porter Goss for the CIA director. What are the chances for confirmation?
The woman who accuses NBA star Kobe Bryant of rape files a civil suit. We'll tell you how that could affect the criminal case.
And Donald Trump is losing his job as CEO of Trump Casinos. Was the gaming business a losing bet?
Those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Time for "Rapid Fire," where we serve up questions hot and fast.
We're talking about the battle that is already under way over President Bush's choice for CIA director, Congressman Porter Goss of Florida.
With us, Democratic Congressman Harold Ford of Tennessee and the great city of Memphis, Tennessee, and Republican Congressman Bob Walker from the great city of Lancaster, Pennsylvania.
Notice I didn't say Lancaster, Pennsylvania.
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: You got it right.
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: ... pronunciation.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Congratulations, all around.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Congressman Ford, your leader in the House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi, very, very negative about Porter Goss, says he may be too partisan. Do you think he's too partisan?
FORD: The hearings will reveal all of those things. The tough questions should be asked. I like him. I respect him. And if he's committed to making the changes that the 9/11 Commission has recommended, he'd have my support.
CARVILLE: All right, Congressman Walker, Congressman Goss put out a statement on the Bush-Cheney reelection thing attacking Senator Kerry. Do you think it was really wise for someone who knew that they were being up for CIA director to engage in political, partisan hack attacks on Kerry when the country so needs to come together and have a real serious professional at the CIA?
WALKER: Well, I think that it's been a tradition in some cases for politicians to be involved in the CIA.
I remember Bill Casey, who was Ronald Reagan's...
NOVAK: Reagan's CIA director.
WALKER: Yes, one of the greatest CIA directors of modern times, who was also Reagan's campaign manager, who said some probably tough things about the Democrats
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: So it doesn't bother you that he's out there attacking Senator Kerry?
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: No, it seems to me his political experience is a very good thing here, because that political experience will help him maybe get some of the reforms on Capitol Hill. It's not just the administration
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You asked your question.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I just wanted to get him
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Governor Kean, the chairman of the 9/11 Commission, and Congressman Hamilton, the vice chairman, both think that Congressman Goss is fine on implementing their recommendations. Isn't that good enough for you?
FORD: I want to hear him say it. I think President Reagan, the late, great President Reagan said, you trust them, but you want to verify. So I want to hear him before those hearings say what you just said.
CARVILLE: Congressman, I know that it doesn't bother you that he's so partisan, but is it fair for the Democrats to ask him his opinions on the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission and how he would do it, as Congressman Ford said he would do?
WALKER: Sure. That's very fair. And I don't regard Porter Goss as a partisan.
(BELL RINGING)
WALKER: He's had wide bipartisan respect on Capitol Hill. And I think he'll do a good job of explaining the 9/11 issues.
NOVAK: Bob Walker, thank you very much.
Harold Ford, thank you.
CARVILLE: Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
FORD: Thank you.
NOVAK: He made his name in music and the movies. Now actor Will Smith is weighing in on the political scene. We'll tell you what has got his attention next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Just what the political arena needs, another celebrity who thinks he knows better.
The rapper and actor who helped save planet Earth from alien invaders in "Independence Day" tells a Swedish newspaper he could be president of the United States if he wanted to. But Will Smith says it's not the job he'd want with the way things are today. Smith, who is now starring in "I, Robot," acts practically like a left-wing Hollywood robot. He's going to meet with John Kerry when he gets back home and may campaign for him. That ought to scare the dickens out of George W.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: We've got more than that to scare him.
From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
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