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CNN Crossfire
John Kerrry's War Record under attack
Aired August 19, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE...
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If he wants to have a debate about our service in Vietnam, here is my answer: bring it on!
ANNOUNCER: His war record under attack, John Kerry fires back, charging Swift Boat Vets with doing the president's dirty work. Does he have a point or is his accusation over the top?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator Kerry knows his latest attack is false and baseless. The president has condemned all of the ads by the shadowy groups.
Today on CROSSFIRE, live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hey, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE. The right wing Swift Boat attack on John Kerry is rapidly sinking under the weight of its own lies. Newly released military records directly contradict accounts by one of the authors of the hot new book, "Unfit For Command" and seem to prove that Senator Kerry's been the one who's been telling the truth all along. So the question is why would a president who spent much of the Vietnam war in a bar in Alabama allow right-wingers to attack John Kerry's record for heroism?
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Right wingers? They're actually veterans just like John Kerry. But now it looks like Kerry is trotting out his own hitmen. Leading the way once again is Kerry's volatile chief conciglieri Max Cleland. Kerry himself can only wag his finger and blame Bush as always.
And what about the deeper question? Who cares about Vietnam? What about the war currently in progress, Iraq. But first the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE political alert.
For more than a year, the Bush campaign has been hammering John Kerry as a flip-flopper, someone who not only won't say what he really believes but probably doesn't even know. The attacks have been fairly effective mostly because they're rooted in truth. They're rhetoric but they're true. For example, yesterday, Kerry gave a speech attacking President Bush's plans to redeploy thousands of American troops from Europe and the Korean Peninsula. "It's a reckless scheme," Kerry told a veteran group, "a move that will make the rest of us less safe." That was this week and yet earlier this very month, August 2004, Kerry shared another diametrically opposed opinion with ABC's George Stephanopoulos. Quote, "I think we can significantly change the deployment of troops not just in Iraq but elsewhere in the world. In the Korean Peninsula perhaps. In Europe perhaps. There are great possibilities open to us." End quote.
In other words, less than three weeks ago, Kerry suggested doing what two days ago Bush actually did. When Bush did it, Kerry attacked him for doing it. You need a flow chart to keep track of what John Kerry really believes if anything. Maybe his campaign will supply one one of these days.
BEGALA: Well, Kerry's critique was the president's proposal was vague, which it was. The president says we'll send them to another place. We doesn't say where and makes a lot of us think it could be Iraq or Iran or another place he's going to wage a war.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Bush did exactly what Kerry said. It's over ten years. Of course it's vague, it ought to be vague.
BEGALA: Anyway, the former Bush administration official who led the search for weapons of mass destruction now says the Bush White House itself was derelict in its duty. Testifying before the Senate intelligence committee David Kay singled out President Bush's national security council for special criticism claiming that the NSC which is led by Dr. Condoleezza Rice failed President Bush and Secretary of State Colin Powell leading them to make public charges that did not pan out.
Remember? We were told there were weapons of mass destruction. There were none. We were told there were chemical and biological stockpiles and mobile weapons labs. There were none. We were told there were close operational links between Saddam and al Qaeda, there were none. We were told there were unmanned aerial vehicles ready to spray poison on America. There were none. Where is the accountability from President Bush? Sadly, there is none.
CARLSON: I think it's a big deal that WMD were not found. And when it became clear they weren't going to be found I came on this show and said that. I believe it to this day and yet, Paul, you're leaving out the essence of this whole story which is that everybody believed that. Your former boss Bill Clinton based his whole policy on Iraq on those assumptions. Mrs. Clinton, his wife, believed the same thing and said it in public.
BEGALA: Shouldn't Bush fire someone? I mean, Jimmy Williams lost 44 games for the Houston Astros and he got fired.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: People should get fired for that kind of mistake. My goodness.
CARLSON: Well, that's actually an interesting point but I don't think to claim lies were involved is unfair.
According to today's "Washington Post" the Bush and Kerry camps are engaged in a new feud over the classified intelligence briefings that presidential challengers typically receive in an election year. The Kerry people claim those briefings have been unfairly delayed. Bush officials counter that Kerry's demands which would require flying CIA briefers outside of Washington are unreasonable and so the spat continues.
But here's the real question. When did John Kerry become so very interested in intelligence briefings? During his seven years on the Senate intelligence committee and yes, John Kerry does currently serve in the U.S. Senate despite his attempts to pretend he lives in Vietnam Kerry almost never showed up. In fact, he missed fully 76 percent of those meetings, more than three quarters. Now keep in mind, John Kerry wasn't even running for president at the time. He just wasn't interested. He couldn't be bothered. He was windsurfing or in Nantucket or Sun Valley. Who knows what he was doing. The point is he wasn't there! So with that in mind, John Kerry can wait a while before getting those briefings. He's done it before.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: How about George W. Bush who didn't even read the national intelligence...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: John Kerry's one of 100 senators. George Bush is the only president we have for a while and he didn't even read the national intelligence report before he took us into war.
CARLSON: What's your point?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: If ten years ago John Kerry didn't go to a meeting it's dereliction of duty but George Bush didn't read the intelligence...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You're trying to outshout me again. You're trying to outshout me but your point appears to be, sure, John Kerry is awful, but George W. Bush even more awful, you going to win on that? Good luck.
BEGALA: I think Kerry is wonderful.
CARLSON: Right, I can tell.
BEGALA: Well, when Hurricane Charley slammed into Florida millions of Americans pitched in to help. But one famous Florida Republican couldn't be bothered. Kathryn Harris, the election stealing former secretary of state now serving in Congress was sitting pretty in Europe when Hurricane Charley hit. Now of course there's nothing wrong with that, how was she to know it was coming.
But when parts of her district were evacuated, Congresswoman Harris stayed in Europe. When Charley slammed into homes and businesses in her district, she stayed in Europe. In fact, Congresswoman Harris passed up a reported 28 return flights and didn't even bother to show up in her own district at all until four days after the storm hit.
This of course is in keeping with the very essence of Bush Republicanism. After all President Bush himself sat idly by for seven long minutes after being told America was under attack reading on 9/11 "My Pet Goat" to Florida schoolchildren. The motto of Bush Republican seems to be when the pressure is on, don't just do something, sit there.
CARLSON: Actually Kathryn Harris in her defense was at a family wedding. But I think more to the point, you have awfully high hopes for politicians. Even politicians can't actually stop weather events, they can't stop acts of God. So her showing up in Florida actually would not have saved a single victim of this hurricane.
BEGALA: It would have helped a lot of people.
CARLSON: Hugging victims is not policy.
BEGALA: George W. Bush went there and good for him. No, President Bush went and that's his job. And where the politicians goes, that's where the money goes, that's where the help goes. She should have been there. That's why we're paying her all that money in Congress. She should get her rear end down to do her job in her district.
Senator John Kerry today accused President Bush of using a front group to do his dirty work. Well, will George W. Bush find the courage to stand up to the (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? Stay tuned to find out.
And then later, actor Tom Cruise weighs in on the Bush-Kerry race and he's taken a highly unusual position for big shot Hollywood celebrity. We'll tell you what it is later in the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: The controversy over Senator Kerry's actions in Vietnam is growing. And now Kerry himself is weighing in. Of course the answer is, you guessed it, it's all George W. Bush's fault. He's mean and evil.
But actually Kerry has placed his Vietnam record at the very center of his presidential campaign and we have a right to examine it, it seems to me. Joining us in the CROSSFIRE to do just that, Congressman Albert Wynn of Maryland, Democrat and member of the Black Congressional Caucus, and also Congressman Mike Pence of Indiana. (APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Good to see you again.
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Good to be here.
BEGALA: Congressman Pence, Tucker makes a good point, we have a perfect right to examine Senator Kerry's military record. I think the press and his opponents are doing that. One group that has come out, called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, they are evidently heroic men who served in Vietnam and ought to be accorded high honor for that. But there's a story in "The Washington Post" today that suggests one of them may not have been telling the truth.
Let me read you what "The Post" reported today: "Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam has strongly disputed Kerry's claim the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory."
"But Thurlow's military records contain several references to enemy small arms fire and automatic weapons fire directed at all units of the five-boat flotilla."
Shouldn't these guys get their facts straight before they start attacking a hero like John Kerry?
REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: Well, according to Mr. Thurlow, he does have his facts straight. And he's actually disputing that...
BEGALA: The contemporary record...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... his 35-year later recollection.
PENCE: ... after-action report that was filed 10 days afterwards, and it's not signed...
BEGALA: More likely (UNINTELLIGIBLE), don't you think, than 35 years later...
PENCE: Some question, Paul, about who filed. But look, my father was a combat veteran in Korea. Maybe your dad served in combat as well. One thing my dad said to me is if you weren't there, shut up.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
PENCE: And he also said, if someone was there, never tell them to shut up. And it seems to me that these Vietnam veterans who served right alongside John Kerry have every right, because they were there, to say what they believe happened, to say whose actions were honorable or otherwise. John Kerry has every right to defend his reputation. I candidly am prepared to concede John Kerry was pro-military for four months. I just would like to know why he was so anti-military for the entire rest of his public career.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Congressman Wynn, John Kerry laid out the entire premise of his presidential campaign today, when he reminded the rest of us that he served in Vietnam for 4 1/2 months 35 years ago, literally before I was born. My question to you is: A, who cares as impressive as his service may be? and B is, "they're lying about my Vietnam record" really enough to form the premise of a presidential campaign?
REP. ALBERT WYNN (D), MARYLAND: Well, it's not the premise of a presidential candidate. Let me make a couple of points. First, at the Democratic Convention, 10 generals on a bipartisan basis came forward and said they preferred John Kerry, they thought his foreign policy made more sense than that of President Bush.
They basically conducted a referendum among experienced military veterans that said, look, we know the business, we watched the president, he's not doing the job. That's the true story.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: But wait a second, and I'm glad that those 10 generals like John Kerry, but the fact is that that convention, which I sat through, as you did, John Kerry and his surrogates spent the entire four days talking about his time in Vietnam and almost no time at all talking about 20 years in U.S. Senate.
And again, my question is, who cares? OK? He has got a Senate record we should be debating and we're not because we're talking about Vietnam, which happened 25-30 years ago.
WYNN: The issue is foreign policy, who can handle foreign policy best. The generals seem to think Kerry handles it best, that's important. If you want to talk Vietnam, I think my colleagues said it best, were you there? The picture...
CARLSON: I don't want to talk about it. That's what I find so puzzling.
WYNN: The pictures clearly indicate that John Kerry was there.
CARLSON: That's great.
WYNN: He didn't give himself the medals.
CARLSON: I'm impressed.
WYNN: He was there. So on that score, John Kerry wins. On foreign policy, John Kerry wins. I think the next win will be the presidency of the United States.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Let's pick up on that. I think your father offered great wisdom, Congressman. So let's take a look at who was there and who wasn't there since this is something apparently the right wants to talk about. Let's take a look at the official records of the two main candidates.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: These are from the official records, not current spin from either political party. On the left on the big screen there is the records of Lieutenant George W. Bush. "Lieutenant Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of the report."
That's what the Texas Air National Guard said about George Bush. Here is what John Kerry's commander said about him: "Intelligent, mature, and rich in educational background and experience. Ensign Kerry is one of the finest young officers I've ever met and without question one of the most promising."
Here are two more reports. One on George W. Bush: "Had Bush reported in, I would have had some recall and I do not." That's General William Turnipseed, commanding officer of the Alabama National Guard.
Again, the Silver Star citation for John Kerry from this similar period of time says: "The extraordinary daring and personal courage of Lieutenant Kerry in attacking a numerically superior force in the face of intense fire were responsible for the highly successful mission."
Case closed.
(APPLAUSE)
PENCE: Well it actually isn't, Paul. You're leaving out one other military role that George Bush has served in, and that is for the last four years as commander in chief of the United States of America. He has lead this nation...
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Oh, I don't want to leave that out, I don't want to leave that out.
PENCE: He has led this nation, Paul, in ways you don't always agree with, but he has led this nation, in my judgment and in the judgment of millions of Americans, with courage and conviction in the war on terror. He demonstrated strength after 9/11. We brought down the Taliban. We brought down the regime of Saddam Hussein. And we're winning the war on terror.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Now Congressman Wynn, you just heard Paul Begala Senator Kerry's version of Vietnam, explaining what he did there. I want to quote John Kerry, his own recollection of what he did in Vietnam. This is from April 18, 1971 On "MEET THE PRESS." Quote: "There are all kinds of atrocities and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed."
I'm not judging John Kerry's atrocities one way or the other, but I wonder if atrocities are the kind of things you want to brag about in a presidential campaign. Why is he bragging about them?
WYNN: Well, I don't think he's bragging but I think he's doing something very unique, he's being honest, he's being candid.
(APPLAUSE)
WYNN: He's saying to the American people, I was there and I saw some things and I did some things that I question. And he came back here and he said, I still question some of the things that we were doing in the Vietnam War. I think that's admirable.
CARLSON: Really?
WYNN: I think the American people...
CARLSON: You really think the whole, like, war criminal platform is going to work? I mean, look, I'm not, again, judging the atrocities. By his own description there are atrocities. Again, my question is a political one. Do you really think you can be elected president, bragging about the atrocities you committed? Do you think so?
WYNN: No, what I said was he was very candid in the things that he saw and his objections to the things he saw. That's what people will find admirable.
But we go back to the fundamental question. This is a referendum on the president's foreign policy and the generals and the public don't seem like like what's happened because it has been a failure. It has been an abject failure.
PENCE: But it also is, Albert, and Paul wants to say that the Vietnam veterans who have come out, this 527 group with the television commercials and the book, are motivated by the right wing. But truthfully I really believe that these people are so offended by what a young John Kerry said when he came home, where he talked about routine war crimes, routine atrocities by American men in uniform in Vietnam, the men alongside him said it never happened.
He came home and joined the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. He called the VFW a "paramilitary pro-war organization." It's those kind of things I think that frankly motivate the enmity toward him today among many veterans.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: One of the comments from -- one of the characters who has written this book, it's a big best-seller by the way, this book attacking Senator Kerry is a gentleman -- he's not a gentleman, he's a dirtbag named Jerome Corsi.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: And here's why I call him that name. I think those veterans ought to be held in high regard. But here is what this man says about my faith: "So this is what the last days of the Catholic Church are going to look like. Buggering boys undermines the moral base and lawyers rip the gold off the Vatican altars. We may get one more pope, but when this senile one dies, that's probably about it."
Why is George W. Bush so comfortable with people who spew anti- Catholic hatred like that?
PENCE: Well, I'm sure the president is not...
BEGALA: Why won't he disavow it?
PENCE: Well...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He's been asked for days to disavow this. Why won't he disavow it?
PENCE: Well, the president did disavow...
BEGALA: He went to Bob Jones University where they hate Catholics.
CARLSON: Some crackpot on a Web site...
(CROSSTALK)
PENCE: What the president said just in the last week, I think, on this very network was that he disavowed what all these 527 groups are doing, these wealthy individuals that are coming out and smearing candidates and blowing apart campaign finance reform.
WYNN: Well, now the difference is that John Kerry has disavowed...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Mr. Wynn, we have to go to break. Congressman, hang on just a second.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: We will be able to respond to that, believe me. When we come back. I'm going to ask whether the Bush campaign should be running ads about his reaction, when President Bush himself was under fire.
And are American forces about to strike a mosque compound where a rebel cleric is holed up with his militia? Wolf Blitzer has the latest on the standoff in Najaf.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Time now for "Rapidfire" where the questions come as fast as fabricating Bush front groups are exposed. Joining us Republican Congressman Mike Pence of Indiana and Democratic Congressman Albert Wynn of Maryland.
CARLSON: Congressman Wynn, Democrats are saying that President Bush should disavow all these Vietnam veterans because they don't like what they're saying. I wonder if John Kerry and his campaign will disavow George Soros who compared the sitting president to Adolf Hitler.
REP. ALBERT WYNN (D), MARYLAND: Wait a minute. We just didn't say disavow veterans, we said disavow these ads...
(CROSSTALK)
WYNN: Let me go on. And John Kerry did disavow the ads of Moveon.com and Senator McCain has said that we all ought to stop and get off this whole Vietnam war issue because both men served and let it go. John Kerry's prepared to do that.
BEGALA: Congressman Pence, you mentioned before that you admire the president's leadership on September 11. Do you think the Republicans should make ads about how he spent seven minutes reading "My Pet Goat"and then spending the rest of the day hiding in a mountain in Oklahoma or Omaha, I guess it was. Should they make ads about that? That's what he did on September 11 while we were under attack.
REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: I think Senator Kerry said that he was stunned and didn't know what to think. And those of us who were in the city, and I think you were that day, Paul, remember that experience. The fact that the president took a minute before we knew it was terrorist attack and reflected and then got all the information.
BEGALA: She says to him, "America is under attack." He knew it was an attack.
PENCE: I frankly think, Paul, that if the president had run screaming out of that classroom we'd be even getting more business from you. I think he did the right thing.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Quick, quick. You just said that you think we ought to get off this subject of Vietnam and you have Max Cleland, one of the chief surrogates for Senator Kerry brings it up at every opportunity in the most reckless possible way. he accused Bush today of attacking the United States Navy. Will someone get him under control.
WYNN: Max Cleland is not the issue. The issue is that Bush has got these front groups out here, these Swifties or whatever they call themselves attacking a guy who didn't give himself three Bronze Stars and Purple Hearts. He received these awards from the government and we have got the pictures to show he was in Vietnam fighting. He was a legitimate war hero.
BEGALA: All right. Congressman Wynn, Congressman Pence, two of our favorite guests. Thank you both very much.
CARLSON: Well, the Bush and Kerry campaigns could use a top gun. Is Tom Cruise ready to take sides? We know you've been wondering. We'll have the answer. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Straight from Hollywood, we have a news flash. It turns out that not every actor in the world is interested in forcing his political views down your throat involuntarily. Some it turns out would rather keep their opinions to themselves, if you can even imagine that. Take Tom Cruise for instance. Cruise, believe it or not, he's keeping his politics under wrap. When asked about how he feels about entertainers lobbying for their favorite candidates, he gives the obligatory line about respecting their right to do that, the first amendment, and all that. But as for himself, Cruise says his vote in this upcoming presidential race will remain private. Amen. His lack of words is worth a thousand pictures. Maybe Barbra Streisand will take notice. We can only hope.
BEGALA: I respect him for keeping his views private but I respect people like Schwarzenegger more, Ben Affleck more, on either side, people who have some guts and step into the arena. I respect them more. I'd rather see people show their guts and stand up for what they believe in.
CARLSON: Silence is golden, Paul, silence is golden.
BEGALA: From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow which is Friday for yet more CROSSFIRE. Have a great night.
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Aired August 19, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE...
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If he wants to have a debate about our service in Vietnam, here is my answer: bring it on!
ANNOUNCER: His war record under attack, John Kerry fires back, charging Swift Boat Vets with doing the president's dirty work. Does he have a point or is his accusation over the top?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator Kerry knows his latest attack is false and baseless. The president has condemned all of the ads by the shadowy groups.
Today on CROSSFIRE, live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hey, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE. The right wing Swift Boat attack on John Kerry is rapidly sinking under the weight of its own lies. Newly released military records directly contradict accounts by one of the authors of the hot new book, "Unfit For Command" and seem to prove that Senator Kerry's been the one who's been telling the truth all along. So the question is why would a president who spent much of the Vietnam war in a bar in Alabama allow right-wingers to attack John Kerry's record for heroism?
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Right wingers? They're actually veterans just like John Kerry. But now it looks like Kerry is trotting out his own hitmen. Leading the way once again is Kerry's volatile chief conciglieri Max Cleland. Kerry himself can only wag his finger and blame Bush as always.
And what about the deeper question? Who cares about Vietnam? What about the war currently in progress, Iraq. But first the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE political alert.
For more than a year, the Bush campaign has been hammering John Kerry as a flip-flopper, someone who not only won't say what he really believes but probably doesn't even know. The attacks have been fairly effective mostly because they're rooted in truth. They're rhetoric but they're true. For example, yesterday, Kerry gave a speech attacking President Bush's plans to redeploy thousands of American troops from Europe and the Korean Peninsula. "It's a reckless scheme," Kerry told a veteran group, "a move that will make the rest of us less safe." That was this week and yet earlier this very month, August 2004, Kerry shared another diametrically opposed opinion with ABC's George Stephanopoulos. Quote, "I think we can significantly change the deployment of troops not just in Iraq but elsewhere in the world. In the Korean Peninsula perhaps. In Europe perhaps. There are great possibilities open to us." End quote.
In other words, less than three weeks ago, Kerry suggested doing what two days ago Bush actually did. When Bush did it, Kerry attacked him for doing it. You need a flow chart to keep track of what John Kerry really believes if anything. Maybe his campaign will supply one one of these days.
BEGALA: Well, Kerry's critique was the president's proposal was vague, which it was. The president says we'll send them to another place. We doesn't say where and makes a lot of us think it could be Iraq or Iran or another place he's going to wage a war.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Bush did exactly what Kerry said. It's over ten years. Of course it's vague, it ought to be vague.
BEGALA: Anyway, the former Bush administration official who led the search for weapons of mass destruction now says the Bush White House itself was derelict in its duty. Testifying before the Senate intelligence committee David Kay singled out President Bush's national security council for special criticism claiming that the NSC which is led by Dr. Condoleezza Rice failed President Bush and Secretary of State Colin Powell leading them to make public charges that did not pan out.
Remember? We were told there were weapons of mass destruction. There were none. We were told there were chemical and biological stockpiles and mobile weapons labs. There were none. We were told there were close operational links between Saddam and al Qaeda, there were none. We were told there were unmanned aerial vehicles ready to spray poison on America. There were none. Where is the accountability from President Bush? Sadly, there is none.
CARLSON: I think it's a big deal that WMD were not found. And when it became clear they weren't going to be found I came on this show and said that. I believe it to this day and yet, Paul, you're leaving out the essence of this whole story which is that everybody believed that. Your former boss Bill Clinton based his whole policy on Iraq on those assumptions. Mrs. Clinton, his wife, believed the same thing and said it in public.
BEGALA: Shouldn't Bush fire someone? I mean, Jimmy Williams lost 44 games for the Houston Astros and he got fired.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: People should get fired for that kind of mistake. My goodness.
CARLSON: Well, that's actually an interesting point but I don't think to claim lies were involved is unfair.
According to today's "Washington Post" the Bush and Kerry camps are engaged in a new feud over the classified intelligence briefings that presidential challengers typically receive in an election year. The Kerry people claim those briefings have been unfairly delayed. Bush officials counter that Kerry's demands which would require flying CIA briefers outside of Washington are unreasonable and so the spat continues.
But here's the real question. When did John Kerry become so very interested in intelligence briefings? During his seven years on the Senate intelligence committee and yes, John Kerry does currently serve in the U.S. Senate despite his attempts to pretend he lives in Vietnam Kerry almost never showed up. In fact, he missed fully 76 percent of those meetings, more than three quarters. Now keep in mind, John Kerry wasn't even running for president at the time. He just wasn't interested. He couldn't be bothered. He was windsurfing or in Nantucket or Sun Valley. Who knows what he was doing. The point is he wasn't there! So with that in mind, John Kerry can wait a while before getting those briefings. He's done it before.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: How about George W. Bush who didn't even read the national intelligence...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: John Kerry's one of 100 senators. George Bush is the only president we have for a while and he didn't even read the national intelligence report before he took us into war.
CARLSON: What's your point?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: If ten years ago John Kerry didn't go to a meeting it's dereliction of duty but George Bush didn't read the intelligence...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You're trying to outshout me again. You're trying to outshout me but your point appears to be, sure, John Kerry is awful, but George W. Bush even more awful, you going to win on that? Good luck.
BEGALA: I think Kerry is wonderful.
CARLSON: Right, I can tell.
BEGALA: Well, when Hurricane Charley slammed into Florida millions of Americans pitched in to help. But one famous Florida Republican couldn't be bothered. Kathryn Harris, the election stealing former secretary of state now serving in Congress was sitting pretty in Europe when Hurricane Charley hit. Now of course there's nothing wrong with that, how was she to know it was coming.
But when parts of her district were evacuated, Congresswoman Harris stayed in Europe. When Charley slammed into homes and businesses in her district, she stayed in Europe. In fact, Congresswoman Harris passed up a reported 28 return flights and didn't even bother to show up in her own district at all until four days after the storm hit.
This of course is in keeping with the very essence of Bush Republicanism. After all President Bush himself sat idly by for seven long minutes after being told America was under attack reading on 9/11 "My Pet Goat" to Florida schoolchildren. The motto of Bush Republican seems to be when the pressure is on, don't just do something, sit there.
CARLSON: Actually Kathryn Harris in her defense was at a family wedding. But I think more to the point, you have awfully high hopes for politicians. Even politicians can't actually stop weather events, they can't stop acts of God. So her showing up in Florida actually would not have saved a single victim of this hurricane.
BEGALA: It would have helped a lot of people.
CARLSON: Hugging victims is not policy.
BEGALA: George W. Bush went there and good for him. No, President Bush went and that's his job. And where the politicians goes, that's where the money goes, that's where the help goes. She should have been there. That's why we're paying her all that money in Congress. She should get her rear end down to do her job in her district.
Senator John Kerry today accused President Bush of using a front group to do his dirty work. Well, will George W. Bush find the courage to stand up to the (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? Stay tuned to find out.
And then later, actor Tom Cruise weighs in on the Bush-Kerry race and he's taken a highly unusual position for big shot Hollywood celebrity. We'll tell you what it is later in the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: The controversy over Senator Kerry's actions in Vietnam is growing. And now Kerry himself is weighing in. Of course the answer is, you guessed it, it's all George W. Bush's fault. He's mean and evil.
But actually Kerry has placed his Vietnam record at the very center of his presidential campaign and we have a right to examine it, it seems to me. Joining us in the CROSSFIRE to do just that, Congressman Albert Wynn of Maryland, Democrat and member of the Black Congressional Caucus, and also Congressman Mike Pence of Indiana. (APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Good to see you again.
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Good to be here.
BEGALA: Congressman Pence, Tucker makes a good point, we have a perfect right to examine Senator Kerry's military record. I think the press and his opponents are doing that. One group that has come out, called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, they are evidently heroic men who served in Vietnam and ought to be accorded high honor for that. But there's a story in "The Washington Post" today that suggests one of them may not have been telling the truth.
Let me read you what "The Post" reported today: "Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam has strongly disputed Kerry's claim the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory."
"But Thurlow's military records contain several references to enemy small arms fire and automatic weapons fire directed at all units of the five-boat flotilla."
Shouldn't these guys get their facts straight before they start attacking a hero like John Kerry?
REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: Well, according to Mr. Thurlow, he does have his facts straight. And he's actually disputing that...
BEGALA: The contemporary record...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... his 35-year later recollection.
PENCE: ... after-action report that was filed 10 days afterwards, and it's not signed...
BEGALA: More likely (UNINTELLIGIBLE), don't you think, than 35 years later...
PENCE: Some question, Paul, about who filed. But look, my father was a combat veteran in Korea. Maybe your dad served in combat as well. One thing my dad said to me is if you weren't there, shut up.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
PENCE: And he also said, if someone was there, never tell them to shut up. And it seems to me that these Vietnam veterans who served right alongside John Kerry have every right, because they were there, to say what they believe happened, to say whose actions were honorable or otherwise. John Kerry has every right to defend his reputation. I candidly am prepared to concede John Kerry was pro-military for four months. I just would like to know why he was so anti-military for the entire rest of his public career.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Congressman Wynn, John Kerry laid out the entire premise of his presidential campaign today, when he reminded the rest of us that he served in Vietnam for 4 1/2 months 35 years ago, literally before I was born. My question to you is: A, who cares as impressive as his service may be? and B is, "they're lying about my Vietnam record" really enough to form the premise of a presidential campaign?
REP. ALBERT WYNN (D), MARYLAND: Well, it's not the premise of a presidential candidate. Let me make a couple of points. First, at the Democratic Convention, 10 generals on a bipartisan basis came forward and said they preferred John Kerry, they thought his foreign policy made more sense than that of President Bush.
They basically conducted a referendum among experienced military veterans that said, look, we know the business, we watched the president, he's not doing the job. That's the true story.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: But wait a second, and I'm glad that those 10 generals like John Kerry, but the fact is that that convention, which I sat through, as you did, John Kerry and his surrogates spent the entire four days talking about his time in Vietnam and almost no time at all talking about 20 years in U.S. Senate.
And again, my question is, who cares? OK? He has got a Senate record we should be debating and we're not because we're talking about Vietnam, which happened 25-30 years ago.
WYNN: The issue is foreign policy, who can handle foreign policy best. The generals seem to think Kerry handles it best, that's important. If you want to talk Vietnam, I think my colleagues said it best, were you there? The picture...
CARLSON: I don't want to talk about it. That's what I find so puzzling.
WYNN: The pictures clearly indicate that John Kerry was there.
CARLSON: That's great.
WYNN: He didn't give himself the medals.
CARLSON: I'm impressed.
WYNN: He was there. So on that score, John Kerry wins. On foreign policy, John Kerry wins. I think the next win will be the presidency of the United States.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Let's pick up on that. I think your father offered great wisdom, Congressman. So let's take a look at who was there and who wasn't there since this is something apparently the right wants to talk about. Let's take a look at the official records of the two main candidates.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: These are from the official records, not current spin from either political party. On the left on the big screen there is the records of Lieutenant George W. Bush. "Lieutenant Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of the report."
That's what the Texas Air National Guard said about George Bush. Here is what John Kerry's commander said about him: "Intelligent, mature, and rich in educational background and experience. Ensign Kerry is one of the finest young officers I've ever met and without question one of the most promising."
Here are two more reports. One on George W. Bush: "Had Bush reported in, I would have had some recall and I do not." That's General William Turnipseed, commanding officer of the Alabama National Guard.
Again, the Silver Star citation for John Kerry from this similar period of time says: "The extraordinary daring and personal courage of Lieutenant Kerry in attacking a numerically superior force in the face of intense fire were responsible for the highly successful mission."
Case closed.
(APPLAUSE)
PENCE: Well it actually isn't, Paul. You're leaving out one other military role that George Bush has served in, and that is for the last four years as commander in chief of the United States of America. He has lead this nation...
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Oh, I don't want to leave that out, I don't want to leave that out.
PENCE: He has led this nation, Paul, in ways you don't always agree with, but he has led this nation, in my judgment and in the judgment of millions of Americans, with courage and conviction in the war on terror. He demonstrated strength after 9/11. We brought down the Taliban. We brought down the regime of Saddam Hussein. And we're winning the war on terror.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Now Congressman Wynn, you just heard Paul Begala Senator Kerry's version of Vietnam, explaining what he did there. I want to quote John Kerry, his own recollection of what he did in Vietnam. This is from April 18, 1971 On "MEET THE PRESS." Quote: "There are all kinds of atrocities and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed."
I'm not judging John Kerry's atrocities one way or the other, but I wonder if atrocities are the kind of things you want to brag about in a presidential campaign. Why is he bragging about them?
WYNN: Well, I don't think he's bragging but I think he's doing something very unique, he's being honest, he's being candid.
(APPLAUSE)
WYNN: He's saying to the American people, I was there and I saw some things and I did some things that I question. And he came back here and he said, I still question some of the things that we were doing in the Vietnam War. I think that's admirable.
CARLSON: Really?
WYNN: I think the American people...
CARLSON: You really think the whole, like, war criminal platform is going to work? I mean, look, I'm not, again, judging the atrocities. By his own description there are atrocities. Again, my question is a political one. Do you really think you can be elected president, bragging about the atrocities you committed? Do you think so?
WYNN: No, what I said was he was very candid in the things that he saw and his objections to the things he saw. That's what people will find admirable.
But we go back to the fundamental question. This is a referendum on the president's foreign policy and the generals and the public don't seem like like what's happened because it has been a failure. It has been an abject failure.
PENCE: But it also is, Albert, and Paul wants to say that the Vietnam veterans who have come out, this 527 group with the television commercials and the book, are motivated by the right wing. But truthfully I really believe that these people are so offended by what a young John Kerry said when he came home, where he talked about routine war crimes, routine atrocities by American men in uniform in Vietnam, the men alongside him said it never happened.
He came home and joined the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. He called the VFW a "paramilitary pro-war organization." It's those kind of things I think that frankly motivate the enmity toward him today among many veterans.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: One of the comments from -- one of the characters who has written this book, it's a big best-seller by the way, this book attacking Senator Kerry is a gentleman -- he's not a gentleman, he's a dirtbag named Jerome Corsi.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: And here's why I call him that name. I think those veterans ought to be held in high regard. But here is what this man says about my faith: "So this is what the last days of the Catholic Church are going to look like. Buggering boys undermines the moral base and lawyers rip the gold off the Vatican altars. We may get one more pope, but when this senile one dies, that's probably about it."
Why is George W. Bush so comfortable with people who spew anti- Catholic hatred like that?
PENCE: Well, I'm sure the president is not...
BEGALA: Why won't he disavow it?
PENCE: Well...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He's been asked for days to disavow this. Why won't he disavow it?
PENCE: Well, the president did disavow...
BEGALA: He went to Bob Jones University where they hate Catholics.
CARLSON: Some crackpot on a Web site...
(CROSSTALK)
PENCE: What the president said just in the last week, I think, on this very network was that he disavowed what all these 527 groups are doing, these wealthy individuals that are coming out and smearing candidates and blowing apart campaign finance reform.
WYNN: Well, now the difference is that John Kerry has disavowed...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Mr. Wynn, we have to go to break. Congressman, hang on just a second.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: We will be able to respond to that, believe me. When we come back. I'm going to ask whether the Bush campaign should be running ads about his reaction, when President Bush himself was under fire.
And are American forces about to strike a mosque compound where a rebel cleric is holed up with his militia? Wolf Blitzer has the latest on the standoff in Najaf.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Time now for "Rapidfire" where the questions come as fast as fabricating Bush front groups are exposed. Joining us Republican Congressman Mike Pence of Indiana and Democratic Congressman Albert Wynn of Maryland.
CARLSON: Congressman Wynn, Democrats are saying that President Bush should disavow all these Vietnam veterans because they don't like what they're saying. I wonder if John Kerry and his campaign will disavow George Soros who compared the sitting president to Adolf Hitler.
REP. ALBERT WYNN (D), MARYLAND: Wait a minute. We just didn't say disavow veterans, we said disavow these ads...
(CROSSTALK)
WYNN: Let me go on. And John Kerry did disavow the ads of Moveon.com and Senator McCain has said that we all ought to stop and get off this whole Vietnam war issue because both men served and let it go. John Kerry's prepared to do that.
BEGALA: Congressman Pence, you mentioned before that you admire the president's leadership on September 11. Do you think the Republicans should make ads about how he spent seven minutes reading "My Pet Goat"and then spending the rest of the day hiding in a mountain in Oklahoma or Omaha, I guess it was. Should they make ads about that? That's what he did on September 11 while we were under attack.
REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: I think Senator Kerry said that he was stunned and didn't know what to think. And those of us who were in the city, and I think you were that day, Paul, remember that experience. The fact that the president took a minute before we knew it was terrorist attack and reflected and then got all the information.
BEGALA: She says to him, "America is under attack." He knew it was an attack.
PENCE: I frankly think, Paul, that if the president had run screaming out of that classroom we'd be even getting more business from you. I think he did the right thing.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Quick, quick. You just said that you think we ought to get off this subject of Vietnam and you have Max Cleland, one of the chief surrogates for Senator Kerry brings it up at every opportunity in the most reckless possible way. he accused Bush today of attacking the United States Navy. Will someone get him under control.
WYNN: Max Cleland is not the issue. The issue is that Bush has got these front groups out here, these Swifties or whatever they call themselves attacking a guy who didn't give himself three Bronze Stars and Purple Hearts. He received these awards from the government and we have got the pictures to show he was in Vietnam fighting. He was a legitimate war hero.
BEGALA: All right. Congressman Wynn, Congressman Pence, two of our favorite guests. Thank you both very much.
CARLSON: Well, the Bush and Kerry campaigns could use a top gun. Is Tom Cruise ready to take sides? We know you've been wondering. We'll have the answer. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Straight from Hollywood, we have a news flash. It turns out that not every actor in the world is interested in forcing his political views down your throat involuntarily. Some it turns out would rather keep their opinions to themselves, if you can even imagine that. Take Tom Cruise for instance. Cruise, believe it or not, he's keeping his politics under wrap. When asked about how he feels about entertainers lobbying for their favorite candidates, he gives the obligatory line about respecting their right to do that, the first amendment, and all that. But as for himself, Cruise says his vote in this upcoming presidential race will remain private. Amen. His lack of words is worth a thousand pictures. Maybe Barbra Streisand will take notice. We can only hope.
BEGALA: I respect him for keeping his views private but I respect people like Schwarzenegger more, Ben Affleck more, on either side, people who have some guts and step into the arena. I respect them more. I'd rather see people show their guts and stand up for what they believe in.
CARLSON: Silence is golden, Paul, silence is golden.
BEGALA: From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow which is Friday for yet more CROSSFIRE. Have a great night.
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