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CNN Crossfire
Swift Boat Showdown in Texas
Aired August 25, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: A group of John Kerry supporters heads to the president's ranch, demanding Mr. Bush condemn a swift boat take ad.
MAX CLELAND (D), FORMER U.S. SENATOR: These scurrilous attacks on John Kerry's credibility in war, his courage, his valor are false. And George Bush is behind it.
ANNOUNCER: And an adviser to the Bush campaign steps down as questions are raised about his ties to those behind the ad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Kerry campaign has known and known for months that their attorneys and their friends are organizing and putting millions of dollars of TV spots on the air. For them to pounce on Ben at this point is ridiculous in fact and a double standard.
ANNOUNCER: A new report says blame for the problems in Iraq goes up the chain of command, prompting John Kerry to renew his command for action from the Bush administration.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I called months ago for Secretary Rumsfeld to take that responsibility, for the president to take that responsibility. And again today, as I have previously, I call for the resignation of the secretary of defense for failure to do what he should have done.
ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from New York City, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
As you can see, the old CNN Election Express has careened into New York City, I guess how they pronounce it here, five days ahead of the Republican Convention. And what an onslaught that will be.
In the CROSSFIRE today, President Bush refuses to meet with Max Cleland, who flew to Crawford, Texas, to confront him over smears against John Kerry's war record. Meanwhile, John Kerry calls for Donald Rumsfeld's head over the Abu Ghraib prison scandal.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: In other words, the Kerry campaign has gone completely bananas, schizophrenic, disorganized and utterly without a message. After a year and a half in Iraq, Kerry is still prattling on about the Vietnam War. Is this man really ready to be president? We'll debate it.
First, the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Well, as we said, after months of hovering on the brink, the John Kerry for president campaign has finally reached the level of self- parody. After more than two years of running almost exclusively on his four months in Vietnam, Kerry informed us yesterday that in fact his campaign has nothing to do with the Vietnam War. It's about health care and the economy and the people vs. the powerful.
It's about -- now brace yourself -- the issues. Well, that was yesterday. Today, Kerry decided that in fact it is all about Vietnam again. Former Senator Max Cleland, Kerry's troubled and reckless surrogate, traveled to the president's Texas ranch today to demand that George W. Bush denounce attacks by fellow veterans on John Kerry's war record. It was a bizarre, almost surreal piece of political theater.
And it makes you wonder. What in the world is John Kerry's campaign message? He has nothing new to say about Iraq, nothing, the only issue that really matters, of course. Instead, his message appears to be, elect me because they're lying about my war record. Well, politically, that is demented. And it is, for that reason, great news for the Bush campaign.
BEGALA: Let me tell you, Max Cleland is great surrogate for John Kerry.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He is neither troubled or reckless. He is courageous, something George Bush is not. George W. Bush should have been man enough to walk out of his multimillion ranch and confront Max Cleland face to face.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Max Cleland, Max Cleland
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Bush was gutless and Max was heroic.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Max Cleland, who has a heroic record, is reckless, by his own description, troubled. I think he does a great disservice...
BEGALA: He's not. (CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Yes, he is.
BEGALA: He's wonderful man.
CARLSON: To your campaign, great disservice.
BEGALA: Bush should have had the guts to walk out and confront him, not hiding behind the sofa.
Well, anyway, John Kerry today talked about honesty and accountability. He called for those two characteristics from the Bush administration in the wake of the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal. Fat chance, Senator Kerry. Kerry said that both the Schlesinger report and the Fay report out today paint a very different picture from the Bush administration's claim that the entire prison abuse scandal could be laid at the door of a couple Army privates.
Kerry repeated his call for the resignation of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. Of course, Mr. Bush has refused to hold Secretary Rumsfeld or any other big shot responsible for Abu Ghraib, just as he never fired anyone over the national security lapses before 9/11, just as he never fired anyone over the botched intelligence before the Iraq war. So much for Mr. Bush's promised responsibility era.
The truth is, if we really want to remove the incompetent and dishonest person who should ultimately be responsible for America's mess in Iraq, we're just going to have to fire George W. Bush.
CARLSON: This is -- actually makes no sense at all. The Abu Ghraib prison scandal set back America's goals in Iraq incalculably.
BEGALA: Right.
CARLSON: It was bad for the country. It was terrible for the Bush administration.
BEGALA: And yet nobody's paying a price for it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Except a couple of privates.
CARLSON: Hold on. To imply -- maybe they're the ones responsible.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's not what the reports say.
CARLSON: To imply Donald Rumsfeld is somehow responsible for sabotaging his own efforts is crazy.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: He's only the secretary of defense. He's responsible for defense policy.
CARLSON: Come on, Paul. Come on.
BEGALA: They ought to can him.
CARLSON: Well, there's nothing more embarrassing the world of politics than the accidental disclosure of the truth. Every once in a while, a candidate or his adviser will say what he really thinks. Horror ensues. Apologies are issued. Everyone immediately scampers back to his talking points.
Something like this happened earlier this month, when top Kerry foreign policy adviser Jamie Rubin admitted to "The Washington Post" that, had Kerry been president after 9/11, he probably would have gone to war with Iraq, too, just like George W. Bush did. Of course, this is completely true. John Kerry voted for the war. Just the other day, he said he would vote for it again knowing what he knows now.
His plan for what to do next in Iraq could have been cribbed directly from the Bush/Cheney campaign Web site. On Iraq, Kerry and Bush have virtually the same position. That's the truth. The Kerry campaign doesn't want you to know it, though. Jamie Rubin has been backpedaling ever since. But ignore his protests. He told the truth the first time. Remember that.
BEGALA: The truth is that George W. Bush misled us into this war.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He has inflamed the Arab and Muslim world.
CARLSON: Then why is John Kerry still for it?
BEGALA: He has driven away our allies.
CARLSON: Why is Kerry still for it?
BEGALA: He has stranded 138,000 men in the desert without a plan for victory.
CARLSON: Then why is...
BEGALA: John Kerry will do better than Bush did.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You're not answering the question. Why is John Kerry -- if it's as bad as you say, and it may be.
BEGALA: It is.
CARLSON: Why is John Kerry still for it?
BEGALA: He's not.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: He said the other day he
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He said he would have voted for the resolution.
CARLSON: Again.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: He's not for Bush's conduct after the resolution, which has been where the problem have lied.
CARLSON: Oh, come on.
BEGALA: Well, when terrorists attacked here in New York City on September 11, the leaders of the state and the city showed courage and compassion. From Republicans like Rudy Giuliani and George Pataki, to Democrats like Hillary Clinton and Chuck Schumer, partisanship was put aside as everyone pulled together.
But now we know there wasn't the same kind of unity in the halls of Congress. In his new book, Republican House Speaker Dennis Hastert blasted New Yorkers as greedy and selfish in the wake of 9/11. Hastert says the calls for assistance from New Yorkers were -- quote -- "an unseemly scramble" -- unquote -- for money. Funny, firefighters and cops who rushed into the Twin Towers to save people didn't look very greedy or selfish to me.
And if Dennis Hastert is so concerned about greed and selfishness, why has he allowed the Republican Party in Congress to become a wholly owned subsidiary of every special interest lobbyist and corporate dirtbag in Washington? Denny Hastert ought to be ashamed of himself. Republicans to New York, drop dead.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Honestly, the thing I hate about -- I mean it -- I hate about campaign politics is, nobody can ever admit what's actually true.
You know as well as I do that city officials, not firemen and cops, city officials and state officials, were involved in an unseemly grab for federal money.
BEGALA: No, I don't.
CARLSON: Yes, they were. And you know that that is true.
BEGALA: They were promised $20 billion from George W. Bush and Denny Hastert.
CARLSON: You know that that is true.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: They still haven't delivered on it three years later.
CARLSON: Your demagoguing it for political reasons.
BEGALA: It is not unseemly to try to protect people's lives.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: No, it is unseemly to grab for federal money afterward, as they did.
BEGALA: They attacked America. They didn't attack New York City alone. And they were perfectly entitled to that. And the president promised it and he didn't deliver.
CARLSON: You know that that is not true, Paul.
BEGALA: And Hastert ought to be ashamed.
Well, anyway, President Bush refuses to meet with decorated Vietnam War veteran Max Cleland at his Crawford ranch. Critics will no doubt note that the image of Mr. Bush cowering at his multimillion- dollar ranch, while sending others out to fight for him, is an eerie parallel to the days he hid in Alabama, while other better men fought for him in Vietnam. We'll debate the swift boat attacks next in the CROSSFIRE.
And then later, John Kerry shares his thoughts on the most bizarre things he has seen on the campaign trail. You don't want to miss that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We are here in New York City, counting down the days to the Republican National Convention.
Today, a key Bush adviser resigned from the Bush/Cheney campaign because of his ties to the controversial swift boat attack ads against John Kerry. Are the attacks on Kerry starting to ricochet against Bush?
In the CROSSFIRE, Mark Green, president and founder The New Democracy Project, and former Republican Congressman Rick Lazio of New York.
Guys, good to see you again.
CARLSON: Thanks for joining us.
Mark Green, you're a clear thinker, so I hope you can...
MARK GREEN, PRESIDENT & FOUNDER, THE NEW DEMOCRACY PROJECT: That's not right, Tucker.
CARLSON: I hope you can help me here.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I still have a question. And it's this. For the last two years, John Kerry has asked the rest of us to judge him on his time in Vietnam. Judge me on it, he says. A group of fellow veterans have taken him up on that. They're judging him on that. Max Cleland said today that that judgment is -- quote -- "dishonorable."
GREEN: Right.
CARLSON: How can that be?
GREEN: Oh, it's easy.
You can be -- I can judge Rick on his record in the Congress and then call him a Nazi, which would be unfair, inaccurate and beyond bounds.
The juice has been squeezed out of this lemon, Tucker. Every authoritative account, the Navy, Douglas Brinkley, nine of 10 men on John Kerry's boat, the "Chicago Tribune" editor on the boat next to him, all have confirmed Kerry was right. The swift veterans for Bush have had their boat sunk. They have been lying. If you invite scrutiny, you don't invite fabrication.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: It's different.
CARLSON: However, there are two points, I suppose. One is, there are over -- still over 200 of his fellow veterans who call into question his account of what he did in Vietnam, A. B, there are a number of issues in which John Kerry is clearly wrong. He was not in Cambodia on Christmas Eve.
GREEN: Two points.
CARLSON: As you know. There is some question as to how injured he really was. And, third, there's no question that he denounced his fellow veterans as war criminals when he returned. It is not dishonorable to bring those points up, is it? Why is Cleland saying it is?
GREEN: You threw in three things in one long question.
First, 264 have complained. This is like 20 million Goldwater voters can't be wrong. Yes they can. If the entire Navy and all the documentary evidence and the people on the boat say they're wrong, you know who I'd bet on.
And, second, John Kerry's record is -- is very simple. He was courageous in battle, courageous to oppose the war when he came back, a separate time. And he's been historically vindicated, unlike Cheney/Bush, who had other priorities in the 1960s. So if you want to debate their war records, that's fine.
Tucker, I think what's going on is the Bush people and their liars for truth can't talk about the economy and jobs and the environment, so it's all about smear and distraction. Bush 41 got elected that way against Dukakis and now McCain and now they're trying it against Kerry.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: And you don't like that we're pushing back.
BEGALA: Mark, I'm sorry to interrupt you. Let me bring Rick Lazio into this.
Well, it's good to see you again.
RICK LAZIO (R), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: You too, Paul.
BEGALA: We're here in your hometown.
LAZIO: Yes.
BEGALA: Today, Max Cleland, decorated Vietnam veteran, a triple amputee, really a brave and wonderful man, did a really interesting and brave thing. He went to Crawford, Texas, to confront President Bush directly about these attacks. And I think it's the right thing to do, because, fundamentally, George W. Bush is a decent guy.
And I think, if he sat directly with somebody down with Max Cleland, he would probably realize that these are really untrue and unfair attacks. So I think Max was doing the right thing, the manly thing, if you will.
Don't you think it hurts politically that President Bush wasn't man enough to meet him, that he cowered in the house, and sent other people out to argue for him, just as other people went and fought in Vietnam while he hid in Alabama?
LAZIO: No, I think it's probably in the Kerry campaign's interest to try and keep this issue alive as long as they can.
And I think Bush has said -- the president has said everything he needs to say on this. He condemns the ads. He condemns all the soft money 527 ads on both sides. He would like to have both of them brought down. This is the same position I took during my Senate campaign. Don't have outside groups in. Let the campaigns spend their money. Let them represent their
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He had an opportunity to do when that when he was rewriting the campaign finance laws and he declined to do so. I think that's a dodge. How the ads are financed are already set by law.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: The content of the ads and the president's cowardice in refusing to sit down with Max Cleland and either these embrace these attacks -- Tucker thinks they're valid. Good for him. Other people think they're dishonest and dishonorable, John McCain, for one.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Why doesn't Bush just have the guts to say either, yes, I endorse these ads or, no, I don't?
LAZIO: Here's where I think there's a certain amount of inconsistency, to be generous.
I think that, for the last several months, since John Kerry has been the presumptive Democratic nominee, there has been a whole series of name-calling. Mark just sort of referred to the president's military service in a derogatory sense. It's been done numerous times.
Kerry stands with Michael Moore, Whoopi Goldberg. They're allowed to call him names. They're allowed to criticize his military service.
(CROSSTALK)
LAZIO: But, somehow, when there are other Americans who want to exercise their ability to have speech, including veterans, it's not acceptable. It's condemned.
GREEN: Forgive me. It's not about speech.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: Obviously, the swift boat veterans for Bush and Michael Moore have the right to speak. Nobody is -- that's too easy.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: The issue is what they're saying.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: Oh, no, they have the right to...
CARLSON: Well, then why is the Kerry campaign trying to pull their ad off the air with the federal government's power? That's what they're trying to do.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: Everybody has the right to speak. I was the consumer commissioner in New York City. You can pull an ad off the air if it's false and misleading. Truth matters.
And so if I say, gee, Dick Cheney wouldn't serve because he had other priorities, of course that's not a slander. That's a fact. If I say that Bush can't account for 18 months in Alabama before he finished his service, that's not a slander. Clearly, nobody has come forward.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: But if people say that John Kerry is lying, when all the documentary evidence is on the other side, it's only the difference between truth and false.
LAZIO: If the Kerry campaign really cares about this stuff, what it will do is, it will go to its side and say, take down these ads. They have already spent $60, $70 million of negative ads.
(CROSSTALK)
LAZIO: Yes, but that's the very issue, though.
(CROSSTALK)
LAZIO: What you guys don't like is that you want to have a one- sided...
BEGALA: One at a time.
Go ahead, Rick.
LAZIO: You want to have a one-sided discussion here.
You want to be able to run ads, $60, $70 million of ads, attacking the president, questioning his character, knocking him on his service in 9/11, but you don't want to have a response. And when there is a response, there is a sort of sense of, this isn't fair.
(CROSSTALK)
LAZIO: Now, the president really, I agree -- one thing I do agree with you on, this is a lot of noise. It's about -- largely about the past, not totally irrelevant. But what they should be focusing on is the economy, the war and leadership.
(CROSSTALK)
LAZIO: And that is what
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I want to ask sort of a deeper question of you. I'm going out on a limb here. I'm guessing you didn't go to kill a great number of communists in Vietnam, that you did not go to Vietnam.
GREEN: I was 14. I wanted to, but I couldn't.
CARLSON: I'm not sure that's right. We had men in Vietnam until 1975. And I suspect you were not 14 in 1975.
(CROSSTALK) CARLSON: Here's my point. Is that honorable or not? The Kerry campaign is now arguing that it's dishonorable not to have served in an unjust, provably unwise war. That doesn't make any sense at all. It was either honorable to avoid this war or it wasn't. Make up your mind.
GREEN: One second. You're imputing a conclusion that nobody in Kerry said.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You just said it yourself.
GREEN: No, no, no, no. One second.
CARLSON: You said it was both honorable that he fought in this wrong war and that he denounced his own actions in this war. Pick one.
GREEN: Very simple. Very simple.
You said that $63 million in ads against Bush. Those are independent expenditures by law, which raise disputed points on choice, the economy, where sides can differ. Bush spent under his own control $80 million denouncing Kerry. He has the right to do it. Kerry has denounced the one MoveOn ad on the war.
Now, the answer to your question, you're again mixing apples and oranges.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: Let me talk about your point, your point.
(CROSSTALK)
LAZIO: ... where they called Bush -- they equate Bush with Hitler.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: That's a whole different -- that's a total slander.
BEGALA: That's a complete red herring.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: Fifteen hundred individuals sent the things voluntarily to MoveOn. When they saw that, they took it off their Web site.
For you to impute that to MoveOn shows you really don't know what you're talking about.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: Your point about honorable and dishonorable. It is honorable to serve in the National Guard, especially today, because they're going to Iraq.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: If you finish your service.
John Kerry has never said that it was dishonorable to be in the National Guard. What they have said with John McCain is, it's dishonorable to lie about a guy who won his medals.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's not what they have said at all.
I'm surprised, Mark, you are not following the campaign a little more closely.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: They have said it's dishonorable that he avoided the war and let others do the fighting for him. Paul Begala just said that a moment ago. That is exactly what you did and many other men did.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: It's dishonorable to not complete your service.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I didn't say it was dishonorable. I said it was that he looks like a coward today, just like he looked like a coward in the '60s.
CARLSON: OK, ladies and gentlemen, we're going to take a quick commercial break. When we return, we'll start arguing things that happened in this decade.
Next in "Rapid Fire," we'll ask why the Democratic Party isn't doing more to keep the protesters under control here in New York City. And two Russian jets crash within minutes of each other. Were they targets of terrorism? Wolf Blitzer will have the latest right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, a Bush/Cheney lawyer who also advised the swift boat veterans steps down amid controversy. We'll have the first television interview with Ben Ginsberg.
Russian investigators study a pair of plane crashes. Are terrorists to blame and is there an al Qaeda connection?
And 54 hours clinging to a capsized boat in the Gulf of Mexico. Survivors tell the harrowing story.
Those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
It's time now for "Rapid Fire," where the questions come more quickly even than John Kerry's ever-changing campaign message, whatever that might be.
With us today, Mark Green, the president and the founder of The New Democracy Project, and former Congressman Rick Lazio of New York.
BEGALA: Rick, today, Ben Ginsberg, the president's lawyer, resigned from the campaign because of his ties to this veterans group. They were funded, the ads, by one of Bush's contributors. And one of Bush's steering committee members for veterans is one of the ads. Is it at all credible -- do you really expect people to believe that Bush does not somehow benefit from these ads and is associated with them?
LAZIO: Well, of course the campaigns benefit in part by independent ads, maybe not necessarily in this case. If it was up to President Bush, he would have all these ads come down. I think that's the primary point over here. Will John Kerry join with George Bush and say all outside groups ought to keep their ads off the air and let the two campaigns duke it out, so that they can be responsible and there is no sense of hiding behind somebody else's ad? And John Kerry has refused to do that.
CARLSON: Now, Mark Green, as we speak, even as we sit here at the Time Life Building, tens of thousands of Kerry supporters are massing around New York to protest. The police here believe that they may be bent on violence. They expect them to set fires, break store windows. They may or may not.
My question to you is, why isn't the Democratic national party calling on them not to commit acts of violence?
GREEN: You see, what you just said, thousands of Kerry supporters. I hope they vote for Kerry. They are protesting
CARLSON: Of course
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: They may not be voting.
They are protesting a president who misled us into a $200 billion unilateral war and shifted
(CROSSTALK) GREEN: One second -- $5 trillion in projected surplus to $5 trillion in projected deficit. They are protesting the incumbent. Let's all agree this is going to come down to not the swift boat tit for tat. It's going to come down to values and character. John Kerry showed character in war and character here.
CARLSON: OK.
GREEN: George Bush has been a serial misleader of issues big and small.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Bush is evil. You're not answering my question.
GREEN: No, I said a serial misleader.
CARLSON: But is very, very bad. He's Satan. But why don't they call on these people not to commit acts of violence?
BEGALA: Of course they do. Everybody -- nobody wants violence, Tucker. And you can't say that, that Democrats are behind violence.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm not saying they're behind it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It's moronic. It's an idiotic
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: OK. We're out of time.
And you ought to get on that, Mark Green. Tell them not to commit acts of violence. Mark Green...
GREEN: Don't commit violence.
CARLSON: Rick Lazio.
Thank you both very much. Thanks for having us in your city.
Next, you won't believe where John Kerry is greeting supporters these days. One hint, it's not on the front porch.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Meet me in the men's room, that might be a good slogan for the John Kerry for president campaign. And, in fact, it was the focus of last night's conversation when Kerry appeared on "The Daily Show" on Comedy Central.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE DAILY SHOW WITH JON STEWART")
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You'd be amazed the number of people who want to introduce themselves to you in the men's room.
(LAUGHTER)
JON STEWART, HOST: Really?
(LAUGHTER)
KERRY: It's the most bizarre part of this entire campaign.
STEWART: I am going to make a suggestion, too.
(LAUGHTER)
STEWART: Secret Service right at the door.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
STEWART: Not getting in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: I love "The Daily Show."
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I love Jon Stewart. I think he hates us, but what the hell.
Jon, we love you. I'm glad you had Kerry on.
CARLSON: John Kerry in the men's room.
BEGALA: He showed a little humor.
CARLSON: It's all about John Kerry in the men's room. This whole campaign may boil down to that.
BEGALA: From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE right here in New York City.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now. Have a great night.
(APPLAUSE)
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Aired August 25, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: A group of John Kerry supporters heads to the president's ranch, demanding Mr. Bush condemn a swift boat take ad.
MAX CLELAND (D), FORMER U.S. SENATOR: These scurrilous attacks on John Kerry's credibility in war, his courage, his valor are false. And George Bush is behind it.
ANNOUNCER: And an adviser to the Bush campaign steps down as questions are raised about his ties to those behind the ad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Kerry campaign has known and known for months that their attorneys and their friends are organizing and putting millions of dollars of TV spots on the air. For them to pounce on Ben at this point is ridiculous in fact and a double standard.
ANNOUNCER: A new report says blame for the problems in Iraq goes up the chain of command, prompting John Kerry to renew his command for action from the Bush administration.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I called months ago for Secretary Rumsfeld to take that responsibility, for the president to take that responsibility. And again today, as I have previously, I call for the resignation of the secretary of defense for failure to do what he should have done.
ANNOUNCER: Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from New York City, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
As you can see, the old CNN Election Express has careened into New York City, I guess how they pronounce it here, five days ahead of the Republican Convention. And what an onslaught that will be.
In the CROSSFIRE today, President Bush refuses to meet with Max Cleland, who flew to Crawford, Texas, to confront him over smears against John Kerry's war record. Meanwhile, John Kerry calls for Donald Rumsfeld's head over the Abu Ghraib prison scandal.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: In other words, the Kerry campaign has gone completely bananas, schizophrenic, disorganized and utterly without a message. After a year and a half in Iraq, Kerry is still prattling on about the Vietnam War. Is this man really ready to be president? We'll debate it.
First, the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Well, as we said, after months of hovering on the brink, the John Kerry for president campaign has finally reached the level of self- parody. After more than two years of running almost exclusively on his four months in Vietnam, Kerry informed us yesterday that in fact his campaign has nothing to do with the Vietnam War. It's about health care and the economy and the people vs. the powerful.
It's about -- now brace yourself -- the issues. Well, that was yesterday. Today, Kerry decided that in fact it is all about Vietnam again. Former Senator Max Cleland, Kerry's troubled and reckless surrogate, traveled to the president's Texas ranch today to demand that George W. Bush denounce attacks by fellow veterans on John Kerry's war record. It was a bizarre, almost surreal piece of political theater.
And it makes you wonder. What in the world is John Kerry's campaign message? He has nothing new to say about Iraq, nothing, the only issue that really matters, of course. Instead, his message appears to be, elect me because they're lying about my war record. Well, politically, that is demented. And it is, for that reason, great news for the Bush campaign.
BEGALA: Let me tell you, Max Cleland is great surrogate for John Kerry.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He is neither troubled or reckless. He is courageous, something George Bush is not. George W. Bush should have been man enough to walk out of his multimillion ranch and confront Max Cleland face to face.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Max Cleland, Max Cleland
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Bush was gutless and Max was heroic.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Max Cleland, who has a heroic record, is reckless, by his own description, troubled. I think he does a great disservice...
BEGALA: He's not. (CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Yes, he is.
BEGALA: He's wonderful man.
CARLSON: To your campaign, great disservice.
BEGALA: Bush should have had the guts to walk out and confront him, not hiding behind the sofa.
Well, anyway, John Kerry today talked about honesty and accountability. He called for those two characteristics from the Bush administration in the wake of the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal. Fat chance, Senator Kerry. Kerry said that both the Schlesinger report and the Fay report out today paint a very different picture from the Bush administration's claim that the entire prison abuse scandal could be laid at the door of a couple Army privates.
Kerry repeated his call for the resignation of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. Of course, Mr. Bush has refused to hold Secretary Rumsfeld or any other big shot responsible for Abu Ghraib, just as he never fired anyone over the national security lapses before 9/11, just as he never fired anyone over the botched intelligence before the Iraq war. So much for Mr. Bush's promised responsibility era.
The truth is, if we really want to remove the incompetent and dishonest person who should ultimately be responsible for America's mess in Iraq, we're just going to have to fire George W. Bush.
CARLSON: This is -- actually makes no sense at all. The Abu Ghraib prison scandal set back America's goals in Iraq incalculably.
BEGALA: Right.
CARLSON: It was bad for the country. It was terrible for the Bush administration.
BEGALA: And yet nobody's paying a price for it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Except a couple of privates.
CARLSON: Hold on. To imply -- maybe they're the ones responsible.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's not what the reports say.
CARLSON: To imply Donald Rumsfeld is somehow responsible for sabotaging his own efforts is crazy.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: He's only the secretary of defense. He's responsible for defense policy.
CARLSON: Come on, Paul. Come on.
BEGALA: They ought to can him.
CARLSON: Well, there's nothing more embarrassing the world of politics than the accidental disclosure of the truth. Every once in a while, a candidate or his adviser will say what he really thinks. Horror ensues. Apologies are issued. Everyone immediately scampers back to his talking points.
Something like this happened earlier this month, when top Kerry foreign policy adviser Jamie Rubin admitted to "The Washington Post" that, had Kerry been president after 9/11, he probably would have gone to war with Iraq, too, just like George W. Bush did. Of course, this is completely true. John Kerry voted for the war. Just the other day, he said he would vote for it again knowing what he knows now.
His plan for what to do next in Iraq could have been cribbed directly from the Bush/Cheney campaign Web site. On Iraq, Kerry and Bush have virtually the same position. That's the truth. The Kerry campaign doesn't want you to know it, though. Jamie Rubin has been backpedaling ever since. But ignore his protests. He told the truth the first time. Remember that.
BEGALA: The truth is that George W. Bush misled us into this war.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He has inflamed the Arab and Muslim world.
CARLSON: Then why is John Kerry still for it?
BEGALA: He has driven away our allies.
CARLSON: Why is Kerry still for it?
BEGALA: He has stranded 138,000 men in the desert without a plan for victory.
CARLSON: Then why is...
BEGALA: John Kerry will do better than Bush did.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You're not answering the question. Why is John Kerry -- if it's as bad as you say, and it may be.
BEGALA: It is.
CARLSON: Why is John Kerry still for it?
BEGALA: He's not.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: He said the other day he
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He said he would have voted for the resolution.
CARLSON: Again.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: He's not for Bush's conduct after the resolution, which has been where the problem have lied.
CARLSON: Oh, come on.
BEGALA: Well, when terrorists attacked here in New York City on September 11, the leaders of the state and the city showed courage and compassion. From Republicans like Rudy Giuliani and George Pataki, to Democrats like Hillary Clinton and Chuck Schumer, partisanship was put aside as everyone pulled together.
But now we know there wasn't the same kind of unity in the halls of Congress. In his new book, Republican House Speaker Dennis Hastert blasted New Yorkers as greedy and selfish in the wake of 9/11. Hastert says the calls for assistance from New Yorkers were -- quote -- "an unseemly scramble" -- unquote -- for money. Funny, firefighters and cops who rushed into the Twin Towers to save people didn't look very greedy or selfish to me.
And if Dennis Hastert is so concerned about greed and selfishness, why has he allowed the Republican Party in Congress to become a wholly owned subsidiary of every special interest lobbyist and corporate dirtbag in Washington? Denny Hastert ought to be ashamed of himself. Republicans to New York, drop dead.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Honestly, the thing I hate about -- I mean it -- I hate about campaign politics is, nobody can ever admit what's actually true.
You know as well as I do that city officials, not firemen and cops, city officials and state officials, were involved in an unseemly grab for federal money.
BEGALA: No, I don't.
CARLSON: Yes, they were. And you know that that is true.
BEGALA: They were promised $20 billion from George W. Bush and Denny Hastert.
CARLSON: You know that that is true.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: They still haven't delivered on it three years later.
CARLSON: Your demagoguing it for political reasons.
BEGALA: It is not unseemly to try to protect people's lives.
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: No, it is unseemly to grab for federal money afterward, as they did.
BEGALA: They attacked America. They didn't attack New York City alone. And they were perfectly entitled to that. And the president promised it and he didn't deliver.
CARLSON: You know that that is not true, Paul.
BEGALA: And Hastert ought to be ashamed.
Well, anyway, President Bush refuses to meet with decorated Vietnam War veteran Max Cleland at his Crawford ranch. Critics will no doubt note that the image of Mr. Bush cowering at his multimillion- dollar ranch, while sending others out to fight for him, is an eerie parallel to the days he hid in Alabama, while other better men fought for him in Vietnam. We'll debate the swift boat attacks next in the CROSSFIRE.
And then later, John Kerry shares his thoughts on the most bizarre things he has seen on the campaign trail. You don't want to miss that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We are here in New York City, counting down the days to the Republican National Convention.
Today, a key Bush adviser resigned from the Bush/Cheney campaign because of his ties to the controversial swift boat attack ads against John Kerry. Are the attacks on Kerry starting to ricochet against Bush?
In the CROSSFIRE, Mark Green, president and founder The New Democracy Project, and former Republican Congressman Rick Lazio of New York.
Guys, good to see you again.
CARLSON: Thanks for joining us.
Mark Green, you're a clear thinker, so I hope you can...
MARK GREEN, PRESIDENT & FOUNDER, THE NEW DEMOCRACY PROJECT: That's not right, Tucker.
CARLSON: I hope you can help me here.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I still have a question. And it's this. For the last two years, John Kerry has asked the rest of us to judge him on his time in Vietnam. Judge me on it, he says. A group of fellow veterans have taken him up on that. They're judging him on that. Max Cleland said today that that judgment is -- quote -- "dishonorable."
GREEN: Right.
CARLSON: How can that be?
GREEN: Oh, it's easy.
You can be -- I can judge Rick on his record in the Congress and then call him a Nazi, which would be unfair, inaccurate and beyond bounds.
The juice has been squeezed out of this lemon, Tucker. Every authoritative account, the Navy, Douglas Brinkley, nine of 10 men on John Kerry's boat, the "Chicago Tribune" editor on the boat next to him, all have confirmed Kerry was right. The swift veterans for Bush have had their boat sunk. They have been lying. If you invite scrutiny, you don't invite fabrication.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: It's different.
CARLSON: However, there are two points, I suppose. One is, there are over -- still over 200 of his fellow veterans who call into question his account of what he did in Vietnam, A. B, there are a number of issues in which John Kerry is clearly wrong. He was not in Cambodia on Christmas Eve.
GREEN: Two points.
CARLSON: As you know. There is some question as to how injured he really was. And, third, there's no question that he denounced his fellow veterans as war criminals when he returned. It is not dishonorable to bring those points up, is it? Why is Cleland saying it is?
GREEN: You threw in three things in one long question.
First, 264 have complained. This is like 20 million Goldwater voters can't be wrong. Yes they can. If the entire Navy and all the documentary evidence and the people on the boat say they're wrong, you know who I'd bet on.
And, second, John Kerry's record is -- is very simple. He was courageous in battle, courageous to oppose the war when he came back, a separate time. And he's been historically vindicated, unlike Cheney/Bush, who had other priorities in the 1960s. So if you want to debate their war records, that's fine.
Tucker, I think what's going on is the Bush people and their liars for truth can't talk about the economy and jobs and the environment, so it's all about smear and distraction. Bush 41 got elected that way against Dukakis and now McCain and now they're trying it against Kerry.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: And you don't like that we're pushing back.
BEGALA: Mark, I'm sorry to interrupt you. Let me bring Rick Lazio into this.
Well, it's good to see you again.
RICK LAZIO (R), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: You too, Paul.
BEGALA: We're here in your hometown.
LAZIO: Yes.
BEGALA: Today, Max Cleland, decorated Vietnam veteran, a triple amputee, really a brave and wonderful man, did a really interesting and brave thing. He went to Crawford, Texas, to confront President Bush directly about these attacks. And I think it's the right thing to do, because, fundamentally, George W. Bush is a decent guy.
And I think, if he sat directly with somebody down with Max Cleland, he would probably realize that these are really untrue and unfair attacks. So I think Max was doing the right thing, the manly thing, if you will.
Don't you think it hurts politically that President Bush wasn't man enough to meet him, that he cowered in the house, and sent other people out to argue for him, just as other people went and fought in Vietnam while he hid in Alabama?
LAZIO: No, I think it's probably in the Kerry campaign's interest to try and keep this issue alive as long as they can.
And I think Bush has said -- the president has said everything he needs to say on this. He condemns the ads. He condemns all the soft money 527 ads on both sides. He would like to have both of them brought down. This is the same position I took during my Senate campaign. Don't have outside groups in. Let the campaigns spend their money. Let them represent their
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He had an opportunity to do when that when he was rewriting the campaign finance laws and he declined to do so. I think that's a dodge. How the ads are financed are already set by law.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: The content of the ads and the president's cowardice in refusing to sit down with Max Cleland and either these embrace these attacks -- Tucker thinks they're valid. Good for him. Other people think they're dishonest and dishonorable, John McCain, for one.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Why doesn't Bush just have the guts to say either, yes, I endorse these ads or, no, I don't?
LAZIO: Here's where I think there's a certain amount of inconsistency, to be generous.
I think that, for the last several months, since John Kerry has been the presumptive Democratic nominee, there has been a whole series of name-calling. Mark just sort of referred to the president's military service in a derogatory sense. It's been done numerous times.
Kerry stands with Michael Moore, Whoopi Goldberg. They're allowed to call him names. They're allowed to criticize his military service.
(CROSSTALK)
LAZIO: But, somehow, when there are other Americans who want to exercise their ability to have speech, including veterans, it's not acceptable. It's condemned.
GREEN: Forgive me. It's not about speech.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: Obviously, the swift boat veterans for Bush and Michael Moore have the right to speak. Nobody is -- that's too easy.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: The issue is what they're saying.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: Oh, no, they have the right to...
CARLSON: Well, then why is the Kerry campaign trying to pull their ad off the air with the federal government's power? That's what they're trying to do.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: Everybody has the right to speak. I was the consumer commissioner in New York City. You can pull an ad off the air if it's false and misleading. Truth matters.
And so if I say, gee, Dick Cheney wouldn't serve because he had other priorities, of course that's not a slander. That's a fact. If I say that Bush can't account for 18 months in Alabama before he finished his service, that's not a slander. Clearly, nobody has come forward.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: But if people say that John Kerry is lying, when all the documentary evidence is on the other side, it's only the difference between truth and false.
LAZIO: If the Kerry campaign really cares about this stuff, what it will do is, it will go to its side and say, take down these ads. They have already spent $60, $70 million of negative ads.
(CROSSTALK)
LAZIO: Yes, but that's the very issue, though.
(CROSSTALK)
LAZIO: What you guys don't like is that you want to have a one- sided...
BEGALA: One at a time.
Go ahead, Rick.
LAZIO: You want to have a one-sided discussion here.
You want to be able to run ads, $60, $70 million of ads, attacking the president, questioning his character, knocking him on his service in 9/11, but you don't want to have a response. And when there is a response, there is a sort of sense of, this isn't fair.
(CROSSTALK)
LAZIO: Now, the president really, I agree -- one thing I do agree with you on, this is a lot of noise. It's about -- largely about the past, not totally irrelevant. But what they should be focusing on is the economy, the war and leadership.
(CROSSTALK)
LAZIO: And that is what
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I want to ask sort of a deeper question of you. I'm going out on a limb here. I'm guessing you didn't go to kill a great number of communists in Vietnam, that you did not go to Vietnam.
GREEN: I was 14. I wanted to, but I couldn't.
CARLSON: I'm not sure that's right. We had men in Vietnam until 1975. And I suspect you were not 14 in 1975.
(CROSSTALK) CARLSON: Here's my point. Is that honorable or not? The Kerry campaign is now arguing that it's dishonorable not to have served in an unjust, provably unwise war. That doesn't make any sense at all. It was either honorable to avoid this war or it wasn't. Make up your mind.
GREEN: One second. You're imputing a conclusion that nobody in Kerry said.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You just said it yourself.
GREEN: No, no, no, no. One second.
CARLSON: You said it was both honorable that he fought in this wrong war and that he denounced his own actions in this war. Pick one.
GREEN: Very simple. Very simple.
You said that $63 million in ads against Bush. Those are independent expenditures by law, which raise disputed points on choice, the economy, where sides can differ. Bush spent under his own control $80 million denouncing Kerry. He has the right to do it. Kerry has denounced the one MoveOn ad on the war.
Now, the answer to your question, you're again mixing apples and oranges.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: Let me talk about your point, your point.
(CROSSTALK)
LAZIO: ... where they called Bush -- they equate Bush with Hitler.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: That's a whole different -- that's a total slander.
BEGALA: That's a complete red herring.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: Fifteen hundred individuals sent the things voluntarily to MoveOn. When they saw that, they took it off their Web site.
For you to impute that to MoveOn shows you really don't know what you're talking about.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: Your point about honorable and dishonorable. It is honorable to serve in the National Guard, especially today, because they're going to Iraq.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: If you finish your service.
John Kerry has never said that it was dishonorable to be in the National Guard. What they have said with John McCain is, it's dishonorable to lie about a guy who won his medals.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's not what they have said at all.
I'm surprised, Mark, you are not following the campaign a little more closely.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: They have said it's dishonorable that he avoided the war and let others do the fighting for him. Paul Begala just said that a moment ago. That is exactly what you did and many other men did.
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: It's dishonorable to not complete your service.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I didn't say it was dishonorable. I said it was that he looks like a coward today, just like he looked like a coward in the '60s.
CARLSON: OK, ladies and gentlemen, we're going to take a quick commercial break. When we return, we'll start arguing things that happened in this decade.
Next in "Rapid Fire," we'll ask why the Democratic Party isn't doing more to keep the protesters under control here in New York City. And two Russian jets crash within minutes of each other. Were they targets of terrorism? Wolf Blitzer will have the latest right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, a Bush/Cheney lawyer who also advised the swift boat veterans steps down amid controversy. We'll have the first television interview with Ben Ginsberg.
Russian investigators study a pair of plane crashes. Are terrorists to blame and is there an al Qaeda connection?
And 54 hours clinging to a capsized boat in the Gulf of Mexico. Survivors tell the harrowing story.
Those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
It's time now for "Rapid Fire," where the questions come more quickly even than John Kerry's ever-changing campaign message, whatever that might be.
With us today, Mark Green, the president and the founder of The New Democracy Project, and former Congressman Rick Lazio of New York.
BEGALA: Rick, today, Ben Ginsberg, the president's lawyer, resigned from the campaign because of his ties to this veterans group. They were funded, the ads, by one of Bush's contributors. And one of Bush's steering committee members for veterans is one of the ads. Is it at all credible -- do you really expect people to believe that Bush does not somehow benefit from these ads and is associated with them?
LAZIO: Well, of course the campaigns benefit in part by independent ads, maybe not necessarily in this case. If it was up to President Bush, he would have all these ads come down. I think that's the primary point over here. Will John Kerry join with George Bush and say all outside groups ought to keep their ads off the air and let the two campaigns duke it out, so that they can be responsible and there is no sense of hiding behind somebody else's ad? And John Kerry has refused to do that.
CARLSON: Now, Mark Green, as we speak, even as we sit here at the Time Life Building, tens of thousands of Kerry supporters are massing around New York to protest. The police here believe that they may be bent on violence. They expect them to set fires, break store windows. They may or may not.
My question to you is, why isn't the Democratic national party calling on them not to commit acts of violence?
GREEN: You see, what you just said, thousands of Kerry supporters. I hope they vote for Kerry. They are protesting
CARLSON: Of course
(CROSSTALK)
GREEN: They may not be voting.
They are protesting a president who misled us into a $200 billion unilateral war and shifted
(CROSSTALK) GREEN: One second -- $5 trillion in projected surplus to $5 trillion in projected deficit. They are protesting the incumbent. Let's all agree this is going to come down to not the swift boat tit for tat. It's going to come down to values and character. John Kerry showed character in war and character here.
CARLSON: OK.
GREEN: George Bush has been a serial misleader of issues big and small.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Bush is evil. You're not answering my question.
GREEN: No, I said a serial misleader.
CARLSON: But is very, very bad. He's Satan. But why don't they call on these people not to commit acts of violence?
BEGALA: Of course they do. Everybody -- nobody wants violence, Tucker. And you can't say that, that Democrats are behind violence.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm not saying they're behind it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It's moronic. It's an idiotic
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: OK. We're out of time.
And you ought to get on that, Mark Green. Tell them not to commit acts of violence. Mark Green...
GREEN: Don't commit violence.
CARLSON: Rick Lazio.
Thank you both very much. Thanks for having us in your city.
Next, you won't believe where John Kerry is greeting supporters these days. One hint, it's not on the front porch.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Meet me in the men's room, that might be a good slogan for the John Kerry for president campaign. And, in fact, it was the focus of last night's conversation when Kerry appeared on "The Daily Show" on Comedy Central.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE DAILY SHOW WITH JON STEWART")
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You'd be amazed the number of people who want to introduce themselves to you in the men's room.
(LAUGHTER)
JON STEWART, HOST: Really?
(LAUGHTER)
KERRY: It's the most bizarre part of this entire campaign.
STEWART: I am going to make a suggestion, too.
(LAUGHTER)
STEWART: Secret Service right at the door.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
STEWART: Not getting in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: I love "The Daily Show."
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I love Jon Stewart. I think he hates us, but what the hell.
Jon, we love you. I'm glad you had Kerry on.
CARLSON: John Kerry in the men's room.
BEGALA: He showed a little humor.
CARLSON: It's all about John Kerry in the men's room. This whole campaign may boil down to that.
BEGALA: From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE right here in New York City.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now. Have a great night.
(APPLAUSE)
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