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CNN Crossfire
Guns and Politics
Aired September 13, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: guns and politics. As the 10-year ban on assault weapons expires, John Kerry goes on the attack.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Today, George Bush chose to make the job of terrorists easier and make the job of America's police officers harder. And that's just plain wrong.
ANNOUNCER: Is Kerry shooting himself in the foot by targeting the gun issue or is this an issue where the president is vulnerable?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Just hours from now, the assault on the Second Amendment, the 10- year-old ban on assault weapons, expires. And the Democrats already are trying to stir up trouble over the expiration, blaming it all on President Bush.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: And, meanwhile, Colin Powell says that John Kerry would be a strong commander in chief. And any time a Bush official speaks the truth, it's big news here.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: So life and death at home and abroad today in the CROSSFIRE.
But we begin first with the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Anyone who's worried that I'm secretly running the Kerry campaign can rest easy. Senator Kerry today blasted President Bush for failing to renew the assault weapons ban. Well, as an avid hunter and gun owner myself, I think Kerry's move is a political mistake, because Republicans are now going to try to scare hunters into voting for the economic royalists who are shipping their jobs overseas just to protect their guns.
But I will say this for Senator Kerry. Taking on the assault weapon ban takes guts. And when will we see George W. Bush take on a wealthy and powerful special interest, say, Halliburton or Exxon or maybe the people who dump arsenic in our water?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You know, it would -- it would take even more guts to come out for legalization of drugs, more guts to say we're against capital punishment. You can do a lot of things which are crazy. But the thing it looks like to me is that, in trouble, instinctively, John Kerry is moving to the left instead of to the center.
BEGALA: He actually is taking the same position as Bush is taking. I think it's a political mistake, but I think it's a gutsy move. And I've got to take my hat off to him. And, as I say, I'm waiting for our president to stand up to any corporate interest ever once. But he's never done it.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: He's making a political issue out of it. You think the hunters are all in corporate interests? You think that's what it's about?
BEGALA: No, I'm saying that Kerry has stood up for a controversial and unpopular position. When will Bush ever stand...
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: ... up to his corporate patrons? Never.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: How bad was the reporting by CBS on the Bush National Guard document story? The latest is the worst.
Retired General Bobby Hodges, former commander of the Texas Air National Guard, originally was reported by CBS to have vouched for the authenticity of documents that put Bush's Guard service in a bad light. But now General Hodges says CBS never showed him the documents, only recited their contents to him over the telephone.
Once he saw the documents, he declared them phony. CBS says General Hodges changed his story. But was the network really interested in getting the story straight or just rushing to put something sensational on the air?
BEGALA: I don't know.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: They checked with experts. I'm not at all convinced that these are forgeries.
But you know what? You don't need the documents to know, these new documents to know that Bush never showed up in Alabama. There's a $10,000 reward that the cartoonist from "Doonesbury" has put up.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: No one served with him in Alabama. He pledged to show up and he didn't show up. He was ordered to take a physical. He refused to take it.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Well, let me explain to you. That was the line they were using in 2000, that he didn't show up. But the documents gave it the news story. That's what -- I know you're not a news man, but that's what made it something that was reported. And if the documents are forgeries, that's a real problem.
BEGALA: But if they're not, then it still doesn't matter because we know there's no proof he ever showed up.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Anyway, the Marine general in charge of western Iraq is leaving that post, and so now he is free to speak his mind.
Lieutenant General James Conway, a three-star Marine general, says that the Bush strategy of sending his Marines to attack Fallujah only inflamed its residents, and then pulling the Marines out three days later only emboldened the enemy. Then the Bush administration created the so-called Fallujah brigade, Iraqis who were supposed to secure the city. But the Fallujah brigade has turned on us, handing over their weapons to insurgents and even shooting U.S. Marines.
Well, there's a pattern. We were told we'd be greeted as liberators. We were told the handover of so-called sovereignty would change things. We were told President Bush had a plan. But we weren't told the truth.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You know, it's very difficult -- this is a very difficult military operation. And I think sitting at this table I predicted it would be a difficult operation.
I really have some question from my experience in covering wars and being in the Army whether lieutenant generals who are on the losing end of an argument and then second-guessing, whether they should go public on it, I don't think it's the right thing to do. But I respect him as a -- for speaking his mind, and he may be right. Who knows?
BEGALA: I respect him as well. But the president needs to change our policy there.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Well, you want to get out. That's what your policy is.
BEGALA: I want to win, but I want a new president.
NOVAK: You want to bug out.
BEGALA: I want Bush to bug out.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Kitty Kelley has made a good living as an assassin of character, Frank Sinatra, Ronald Reagan and the Kennedy family among her targets. But this is the first time she's gone after an incumbent president of the United States.
In her new book about the Bush dynasty, the book's most publicized nugget is the allegation that George W. Bush many years ago sniffed cocaine. Kelley claims two sources. One cited source, former Bush sister-in-law Sharon Bush, calls this a falsehood. The other source is unnamed, like most of Kitty Kelley's sources in all her books.
The publisher, Doubleday, says it stands behind the book, rather than be honest and dispose of this trash.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Let me be honest. I don't care. I don't care about George Bush's private life. I'm not going to engage in it. I'm not a Republican. I don't trash people's private lives.
The book I'm interested in is the one by Seymour Hersh, "Chain of Command," that documents, in Hersh's words, the lies and obsessions that led America into Iraq. This is the book that Americans ought to be reading about how this president lied us into a war in Iraq. And all this stuff about personal lives, I don't like at all.
NOVAK: What do you think -- what do you think is going to get the most attention from the media?
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Seymour Hersh or Kitty Kelley?
BEGALA: I know who's going to get more attention from me, Bob.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: ... a question. I didn't ask you what
(CROSSTALK) NOVAK: What do you think is going to get attention from the media?
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: We'll have to see, Seymour Hersh, I hope.
NOVAK: Oh, come on.
BEGALA: Because that's what matters, people's lives and deaths, not some...
NOVAK: Be honest, Paul.
BEGALA: Not some attack on somebody's private life.
Well, when it comes to assault weapons, President Bush tells suburban soccer moms that he's for banning them, but then turns around and tells my fellow hunters that he's a strong supporter of gun owners. So just who is the flip-flopper here? We'll also look at why Colin Powell says John Kerry would be a strong commander in chief.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: And, then later, why are both campaigns so intensely interested in the outcome of an upcoming Washington Redskins football game? We'll tell you why later in the CROSSFIRE.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Welcome back.
We're debating some hot topics from the campaign trail, including the prospective end of the 10-year-old assault on the Second Amendment to the Constitution, ending the assault weapons sales in America. It's already stirring debate in the battle for the White House, but is it really wise for John Kerry to enrage the gun owners again?
In the CROSSFIRE, Steve Ricchetti, who was the deputy chief of staff to President Clinton, and Ed Rogers, who was the deputy chief of staff to the first President Bush.
BEGALA: Guys, good to see you again.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Good to see you.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, Ed, let me ask you the question. And I think, politically, it's unwise for John Kerry to be going after the gun control issue. Honestly, I think it's a political mistake.
ED ROGERS, REPUBLICAN CONSULTANT: He should listen to you.
BEGALA: Well, he should, but he doesn't. So here's, though -- let me tell you first what Senator Kerry said. Let me play you a sound bite from Senator Kerry today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KERRY: George Bush gave them his word that when it came time he was going to extend the ban. When it became time to stand up and ask America to do what was right, George Bush's powerful friends in the gun lobby asked him to look the other way, and he couldn't resist, and he said, sure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Well, he does make a good point. Can you name me any time, not just on guns -- I understand that -- any time that President Bush has stood up to these wealthy special interests that seem to control him, ever?
ROGERS: Senator Kerry can make anything seem droll and boring, can't he? Even something like assault weapons.
Hey, this change that's taking place in the gun law, this law lapsing, is no big deal. It's incremental as far as guns are concerned. What Kerry is -- what Kerry is trying to hide from is his 20-year record of being an enemy to gun owners. He's got this phony display of him carrying a shotgun. Don't buy it. For 20 years in the Senate, he has been completely against the rights of gun owners, against the rights ensured in the Second Amendment.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, let me try it a different way.
ROGERS: There's some Second Amendment people here tonight.
BEGALA: I happen to be a -- I happen to be a gun owner. And my question was not about Senator Kerry's record in the Senate. Let me try it more plainly.
ROGERS: OK. Well, that was
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: When has George W. Bush ever stood up to wealthy and powerful interests? Here's John Kerry, at political risk, standing up to a special interest. When has George W. Bush stood up to one of his corporate patrons?
NOVAK: I can answer that question. You want me to answer that question?
BEGALA: Well, I want to hear Mr. Rogers... ROGERS: OK.
Well, speaking of wealthy, powerful interests, it was reported last week that the Kerrys combined...
BEGALA: Could we just stop with Kerry?
ROGERS: ... made -- they made $5.4 million in income and paid 12 percent in taxes.
BEGALA: But when has Bush ever stood up to a wealthy special interest? Never is the answer. I just think never is the answer.
ROGERS: Oh, come on, Paul.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: I'll tell you when. He stands up to the trial lawyers, which are one of the...
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: On behalf of the
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Wait a minute. You asked. One of the wealthiest special interests in America.
I want to ask Steve a question.
You know, far be it for me to tell the Democrats what their strategy is, but let me cite Bill Clinton in "My Life." Did you read that book, "My Life"?
STEVE RICCHETTI, POLITICAL ADVISER TO FORMER PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, I did. We were talking about it before.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Page 629: "The victories of the economic plan, with its tax increases on high-income Americans, the Brady Bill, and the assault weapons ban inflamed the Republican base voters and increased their turnout. The turnout differential alone probably accounted for half our losses" -- that was in '94 -- "and contributed to Republican gain of 11 governorships."
And if you don't believe Bill Clinton, last December, campaigning for president, Howard Dean said: "I am tired of coming to the South and fighting elections on guns, God, and gays. We're going to fight this election on our turf, which is going to be jobs, education, and health care." Why wouldn't Kerry follow the advice of two such disparate Democrats as Bill Clinton and Howard Dean?
RICCHETTI: Well, I think because he's relying on and using the recommendations of police organizations all over America.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
ROGERS: Unions. Unions. Unions.
RICCHETTI: And 70 percent of them, all of whom support the extension of the assault weapons bans. What is more troubling...
ROGERS: As does Bush.
RICCHETTI: What is more troubling is this -- that's exactly right.
(CROSSTALK)
RICCHETTI: Is that the president said that he would support the extension of the assault weapons ban. And just like he did on health care, just like he's done on job creation, just like he's done on environmental protection, it's all talk, no action.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, let me try again. Mr. Ricchetti, I'm just asking you a political question. You used to be in politics, I understand.
RICCHETTI: I did a little work there.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Isn't this a dumb political move? Your old friend Begala thinks it's dumb. I think it's dumb. Rogers thinks it's dumb. Let's all agree it is dumb.
(CROSSTALK)
RICCHETTI: I don't think it's dumb at all. I actually think the majority of Americans support extension of the assault weapons ban. It is a commonsense incremental approach. It will not interfere with one day of a person who wants to do hunting in America, any sports hunting, any fishing, any anything.
This thing is for the security and safety of the American people. And particularly in this post-9/11 environment, I can't believe we're having a squabble about something like this.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Let me turn to national security.
It seems to me the principal argument of the Bush/Cheney campaign is that John Kerry is too weak to be our commander in chief.
ROGERS: Among other things.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: If you looked at the hate fest in New York City that I attended, that was the point of the Republican Convention.
NOVAK: Hate fest?
BEGALA: Boston.
ROGERS: I was at the hate fest in Boston.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: There wasn't enough hate there for me.
(CROSSTALK)
RICCHETTI: It was the Bob Novak charm school that introduced all these guys.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, the secretary of state, Colin Powell, obviously works for President Bush.
ROGERS: Does a good job.
BEGALA: He does a great job.
ROGERS: Thank you.
ROGERS: He was asked a very pointed question about whether Kerry would be a strong commander in chief on "Meet the Press" yesterday. Here's Tim Russert's question and Secretary Powell's answer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "MEET THE PRESS")
TIM RUSSERT, HOST: Do you believe if John Kerry was elected and we were attacked by terrorists, he would simply treat it as a criminal act, or would he deal with it in a robust way, an act of war?
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: I can't tell you how he might respond to it. As commander in chief, I think he'd respond to it in a robust way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Colin Powell endorses John Kerry as a strong commander in chief.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE) BEGALA: That kind of puts a lie to the Dick Cheney-George Bush attack, doesn't it?
ROGERS: Is Colin Powell a great diplomat or what? I think he was sort of speaking to what he would generally believe. And "in a robust way," who knows what that means?
But he did a good job for purposes of being the secretary of state...
BEGALA: So Colin Powell's a liar?
ROGERS: No, no. Oh, come on. Come on.
BEGALA: Is that your position?
ROGERS: Not at all. Colin Powell said what he believes and he said he would respond -- any commander in chief would probably respond in a robust way. But would it be...
BEGALA: So why is Dick Cheney trying to tell lies about John Kerry, then?
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
ROGERS: In comparison to how Bush has responded, Bush's clarity, Bush's certainty...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: By reading "My Pet Goat" and hiding in the side of a mountain? That's what he did.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ROGERS: Taking the fight to the terrorists. There is no contest on who would take the fight to the terrorists. No contest.
NOVAK: Steve Ricchetti, there's no question that what -- the expose of all the phony aspects of John Kerry's war record, there has been a retaliation, going back to this old National Guard story.
But, again, I want to cite two very sharp Democratic consultants. The first is Bill Carrick, a good friend of mine, who is good out in Los Angeles. He said: "Does anybody believe that George Bush wasn't a skimmer who got out of the Vietnam War? The American people have moved beyond that. They don't need to know more details."
And then David Doak, another good Democratic consultant, says: "We stand at a disadvantage as a party whenever we talk about military issues. And I think we've seen that in that way we've taken a guy with a Silver Star, a Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts and lost that battle to someone who served in the National Guard."
These guys are saying, get off this subject. It's a loser for you.
RICCHETTI: I think they're dead wrong.
Look, the security issue for America is paramount. Everyone recognizes that. It is also paramount that we talk about economic and domestic issues as well. John Kerry can walk and chew bubblegum at the same time. It's essential. He will prove it. He defended our country before in Vietnam. It is shameful, these scurrilous attacks on his record and his service in Vietnam, absolutely shameful.
NOVAK: What's scurrilous about them?
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: They're from his comrades, and they're not forged documents. I've talked to three swift boat commanders.
(CROSSTALK)
RICCHETTI: The comrades who were there with him -- the argument about whether there were bullets flying over their head -- he is calling -- Jim Rassmann, he is calling Del Sandusky and everybody else who served with Senator Kerry, who verified his account, liars. It is absolutely unconscionable.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: They called Jim Rassmann a liar. Who is lying?
ROGERS: Wait a minute. Do you think the swift boat veterans are partisan liars, all of them?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Two-hundred and fifty, 250 combat veterans?
(CROSSTALK)
RICCHETTI: Yes. Yes. Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
RICCHETTI: I believe they are. They have grossly -- they have grossly, grossly misrepresented...
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: I'm glad somebody finally said it from the Kerry campaign.
BEGALA: But, Ed, it is true that the Pentagon records back up Senator Kerry's version. I understand people have different recollections. But the records back up Senator Kerry. There were allegations that Kerry had wounded himself from some of these...
NOVAK: He did. BEGALA: You think John Kerry wounded himself?
NOVAK: Accidentally. It's indisputable.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: That's not what the record shows.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: The notion that Kerry has gotten so off track -- look, he went there. He served. He got shot at one time, two times, four times. He got wounded once, three. That shouldn't be the issue. But the fact of the matter is, he has probably gilded the lily a little bit, and these swift boat veterans are not partisan liars.
BEGALA: And how about President Bush, when he says he even showed for duty was gilding the lily, wasn't it?
ROGERS: Oh, come on.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Next, in "Rapid Fire," is Kitty Kelley -- Kitty Kelley -- telling the truth in her new book about the Bush dynasty?
And Wolf Blitzer will have the latest on who's at risk from Hurricane Ivan. It's Ivan already? Right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in New York.
Coming up at the top of the hour, Hurricane Ivan comes closer to Cuba, but it could hit Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula instead. We'll have a complete update.
It will soon be legal again to buy an Uzi or an AK-47 in the United States. We'll tell you about the political fallout.
And what was Batman, yes, Batman, doing at Buckingham Palace? A political protest turns into a royal pain.
Those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
BEGALA: Welcome back. Time now for "Rapid Fire," where the questions and answers fly even faster than President Bush can hide from the powerful lobbyists who rolled him on the gun bill.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Republican consultant Ed Rogers is with us, and Steve Ricchetti, a former Clinton deputy chief of staff in the White House.
NOVAK: Steve, do you believe Kitty Kelley when she writes that George W. Bush as a young man used cocaine?
RICCHETTI: I don't need a new book to tell me that George Bush is irresponsible. I just have to look at the last four years.
(APPLAUSE)
RICCHETTI: It was irresponsible...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
RICCHETTI: It was irresponsible to take this country to war without having a plan to secure this peace. It's irresponsible to give three-quarters of a trillion dollars in tax cuts
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: "Rapid Fire."
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Isn't it true that Republicans would rather have people worrying about gossip from 20 or 30 years ago than read Seymour Hersh's book, where he talks about what he says the lies and obsessions that led America into Iraq? Isn't this the book you all fear more than Kitty Kelley's?
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: If they do research on Kitty Kelley and Seymour Hersh, I'm confident they'll discount both books.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Steve, Steve, how far would you go on gun control? Would you go as far as the District of Columbia, which bans all firearms in this city? Would you spread that over the whole country?
RICCHETTI: I would not, nor is that what John Kerry has recommended, a sensible approach to gun control, extend the assault weapons ban, just like police organizations all over America are advocating that we do.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Ed, yesterday on the Sunday shows, again, Secretary of State Colin Powell not only said that Kerry would be a strong commander in chief. He said there was no linkage between Saddam Hussein and 9/11. Will George W. Bush and Dick Cheney stop trying to infer that there was now?
(APPLAUSE)
ROGERS: Nine-eleven taught us an important lesson; 9/11 taught us an important lesson, that we cannot let peril draw near and that we have to preemptively take out those that would do us harm. That was the linkage with Iraq. That was the linkage that this administration talked about.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ROGERS: And that's what they have done.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: The right thing to do.
NOVAK: You had a wonderful question, but we're out of time.
Steve Ricchetti, thank you very much.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Thank you, Ed Rogers.
He represents the home of the New England Patriots, but now John Kerry says he is a Green Bay Packer-loving cheesehead. We'll tell you why right after this.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Want to know who's going to win the battle for the White House two days early? Well, here's your answer, the team that wins the Halloween game between the Washington Redskins and the Green Bay Packers.
In the last 18 presidential elections, when the Redskins win their game just before Election Day, the incumbent party wins the White House, and when the Skins lose, the challenger wins the presidency. So it's easy to see why President Bush will be pulling for the Redskins October 31 and why Senator John Kerry is suddenly a Packers fan. Kerry says when the game is played -- quote -- "You're looking at the biggest cheesehead in America right here."
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: The problem is, you know, the other day, he didn't even know it's Lambeau Field. He called it Lambert Field. Typical Eastern snob.
BEGALA: Well, George W. Bush, if he switches from the Dallas Cowboys to the Washington Redskins, that would be the biggest flip- flop in American history. Mr. Bush needs to stick with his team.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: And they're the Cowboys. I gave up on pro football when the Houston Oilers left Houston. So I don't give a darn who wins any of these games anymore.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
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Aired September 13, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: guns and politics. As the 10-year ban on assault weapons expires, John Kerry goes on the attack.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Today, George Bush chose to make the job of terrorists easier and make the job of America's police officers harder. And that's just plain wrong.
ANNOUNCER: Is Kerry shooting himself in the foot by targeting the gun issue or is this an issue where the president is vulnerable?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Just hours from now, the assault on the Second Amendment, the 10- year-old ban on assault weapons, expires. And the Democrats already are trying to stir up trouble over the expiration, blaming it all on President Bush.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: And, meanwhile, Colin Powell says that John Kerry would be a strong commander in chief. And any time a Bush official speaks the truth, it's big news here.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: So life and death at home and abroad today in the CROSSFIRE.
But we begin first with the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Anyone who's worried that I'm secretly running the Kerry campaign can rest easy. Senator Kerry today blasted President Bush for failing to renew the assault weapons ban. Well, as an avid hunter and gun owner myself, I think Kerry's move is a political mistake, because Republicans are now going to try to scare hunters into voting for the economic royalists who are shipping their jobs overseas just to protect their guns.
But I will say this for Senator Kerry. Taking on the assault weapon ban takes guts. And when will we see George W. Bush take on a wealthy and powerful special interest, say, Halliburton or Exxon or maybe the people who dump arsenic in our water?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You know, it would -- it would take even more guts to come out for legalization of drugs, more guts to say we're against capital punishment. You can do a lot of things which are crazy. But the thing it looks like to me is that, in trouble, instinctively, John Kerry is moving to the left instead of to the center.
BEGALA: He actually is taking the same position as Bush is taking. I think it's a political mistake, but I think it's a gutsy move. And I've got to take my hat off to him. And, as I say, I'm waiting for our president to stand up to any corporate interest ever once. But he's never done it.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: He's making a political issue out of it. You think the hunters are all in corporate interests? You think that's what it's about?
BEGALA: No, I'm saying that Kerry has stood up for a controversial and unpopular position. When will Bush ever stand...
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: ... up to his corporate patrons? Never.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: How bad was the reporting by CBS on the Bush National Guard document story? The latest is the worst.
Retired General Bobby Hodges, former commander of the Texas Air National Guard, originally was reported by CBS to have vouched for the authenticity of documents that put Bush's Guard service in a bad light. But now General Hodges says CBS never showed him the documents, only recited their contents to him over the telephone.
Once he saw the documents, he declared them phony. CBS says General Hodges changed his story. But was the network really interested in getting the story straight or just rushing to put something sensational on the air?
BEGALA: I don't know.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: They checked with experts. I'm not at all convinced that these are forgeries.
But you know what? You don't need the documents to know, these new documents to know that Bush never showed up in Alabama. There's a $10,000 reward that the cartoonist from "Doonesbury" has put up.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: No one served with him in Alabama. He pledged to show up and he didn't show up. He was ordered to take a physical. He refused to take it.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Well, let me explain to you. That was the line they were using in 2000, that he didn't show up. But the documents gave it the news story. That's what -- I know you're not a news man, but that's what made it something that was reported. And if the documents are forgeries, that's a real problem.
BEGALA: But if they're not, then it still doesn't matter because we know there's no proof he ever showed up.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Anyway, the Marine general in charge of western Iraq is leaving that post, and so now he is free to speak his mind.
Lieutenant General James Conway, a three-star Marine general, says that the Bush strategy of sending his Marines to attack Fallujah only inflamed its residents, and then pulling the Marines out three days later only emboldened the enemy. Then the Bush administration created the so-called Fallujah brigade, Iraqis who were supposed to secure the city. But the Fallujah brigade has turned on us, handing over their weapons to insurgents and even shooting U.S. Marines.
Well, there's a pattern. We were told we'd be greeted as liberators. We were told the handover of so-called sovereignty would change things. We were told President Bush had a plan. But we weren't told the truth.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You know, it's very difficult -- this is a very difficult military operation. And I think sitting at this table I predicted it would be a difficult operation.
I really have some question from my experience in covering wars and being in the Army whether lieutenant generals who are on the losing end of an argument and then second-guessing, whether they should go public on it, I don't think it's the right thing to do. But I respect him as a -- for speaking his mind, and he may be right. Who knows?
BEGALA: I respect him as well. But the president needs to change our policy there.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Well, you want to get out. That's what your policy is.
BEGALA: I want to win, but I want a new president.
NOVAK: You want to bug out.
BEGALA: I want Bush to bug out.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Kitty Kelley has made a good living as an assassin of character, Frank Sinatra, Ronald Reagan and the Kennedy family among her targets. But this is the first time she's gone after an incumbent president of the United States.
In her new book about the Bush dynasty, the book's most publicized nugget is the allegation that George W. Bush many years ago sniffed cocaine. Kelley claims two sources. One cited source, former Bush sister-in-law Sharon Bush, calls this a falsehood. The other source is unnamed, like most of Kitty Kelley's sources in all her books.
The publisher, Doubleday, says it stands behind the book, rather than be honest and dispose of this trash.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Let me be honest. I don't care. I don't care about George Bush's private life. I'm not going to engage in it. I'm not a Republican. I don't trash people's private lives.
The book I'm interested in is the one by Seymour Hersh, "Chain of Command," that documents, in Hersh's words, the lies and obsessions that led America into Iraq. This is the book that Americans ought to be reading about how this president lied us into a war in Iraq. And all this stuff about personal lives, I don't like at all.
NOVAK: What do you think -- what do you think is going to get the most attention from the media?
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Seymour Hersh or Kitty Kelley?
BEGALA: I know who's going to get more attention from me, Bob.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: ... a question. I didn't ask you what
(CROSSTALK) NOVAK: What do you think is going to get attention from the media?
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: We'll have to see, Seymour Hersh, I hope.
NOVAK: Oh, come on.
BEGALA: Because that's what matters, people's lives and deaths, not some...
NOVAK: Be honest, Paul.
BEGALA: Not some attack on somebody's private life.
Well, when it comes to assault weapons, President Bush tells suburban soccer moms that he's for banning them, but then turns around and tells my fellow hunters that he's a strong supporter of gun owners. So just who is the flip-flopper here? We'll also look at why Colin Powell says John Kerry would be a strong commander in chief.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: And, then later, why are both campaigns so intensely interested in the outcome of an upcoming Washington Redskins football game? We'll tell you why later in the CROSSFIRE.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Welcome back.
We're debating some hot topics from the campaign trail, including the prospective end of the 10-year-old assault on the Second Amendment to the Constitution, ending the assault weapons sales in America. It's already stirring debate in the battle for the White House, but is it really wise for John Kerry to enrage the gun owners again?
In the CROSSFIRE, Steve Ricchetti, who was the deputy chief of staff to President Clinton, and Ed Rogers, who was the deputy chief of staff to the first President Bush.
BEGALA: Guys, good to see you again.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Good to see you.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, Ed, let me ask you the question. And I think, politically, it's unwise for John Kerry to be going after the gun control issue. Honestly, I think it's a political mistake.
ED ROGERS, REPUBLICAN CONSULTANT: He should listen to you.
BEGALA: Well, he should, but he doesn't. So here's, though -- let me tell you first what Senator Kerry said. Let me play you a sound bite from Senator Kerry today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KERRY: George Bush gave them his word that when it came time he was going to extend the ban. When it became time to stand up and ask America to do what was right, George Bush's powerful friends in the gun lobby asked him to look the other way, and he couldn't resist, and he said, sure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Well, he does make a good point. Can you name me any time, not just on guns -- I understand that -- any time that President Bush has stood up to these wealthy special interests that seem to control him, ever?
ROGERS: Senator Kerry can make anything seem droll and boring, can't he? Even something like assault weapons.
Hey, this change that's taking place in the gun law, this law lapsing, is no big deal. It's incremental as far as guns are concerned. What Kerry is -- what Kerry is trying to hide from is his 20-year record of being an enemy to gun owners. He's got this phony display of him carrying a shotgun. Don't buy it. For 20 years in the Senate, he has been completely against the rights of gun owners, against the rights ensured in the Second Amendment.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, let me try it a different way.
ROGERS: There's some Second Amendment people here tonight.
BEGALA: I happen to be a -- I happen to be a gun owner. And my question was not about Senator Kerry's record in the Senate. Let me try it more plainly.
ROGERS: OK. Well, that was
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: When has George W. Bush ever stood up to wealthy and powerful interests? Here's John Kerry, at political risk, standing up to a special interest. When has George W. Bush stood up to one of his corporate patrons?
NOVAK: I can answer that question. You want me to answer that question?
BEGALA: Well, I want to hear Mr. Rogers... ROGERS: OK.
Well, speaking of wealthy, powerful interests, it was reported last week that the Kerrys combined...
BEGALA: Could we just stop with Kerry?
ROGERS: ... made -- they made $5.4 million in income and paid 12 percent in taxes.
BEGALA: But when has Bush ever stood up to a wealthy special interest? Never is the answer. I just think never is the answer.
ROGERS: Oh, come on, Paul.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: I'll tell you when. He stands up to the trial lawyers, which are one of the...
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: On behalf of the
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Wait a minute. You asked. One of the wealthiest special interests in America.
I want to ask Steve a question.
You know, far be it for me to tell the Democrats what their strategy is, but let me cite Bill Clinton in "My Life." Did you read that book, "My Life"?
STEVE RICCHETTI, POLITICAL ADVISER TO FORMER PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, I did. We were talking about it before.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Page 629: "The victories of the economic plan, with its tax increases on high-income Americans, the Brady Bill, and the assault weapons ban inflamed the Republican base voters and increased their turnout. The turnout differential alone probably accounted for half our losses" -- that was in '94 -- "and contributed to Republican gain of 11 governorships."
And if you don't believe Bill Clinton, last December, campaigning for president, Howard Dean said: "I am tired of coming to the South and fighting elections on guns, God, and gays. We're going to fight this election on our turf, which is going to be jobs, education, and health care." Why wouldn't Kerry follow the advice of two such disparate Democrats as Bill Clinton and Howard Dean?
RICCHETTI: Well, I think because he's relying on and using the recommendations of police organizations all over America.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
ROGERS: Unions. Unions. Unions.
RICCHETTI: And 70 percent of them, all of whom support the extension of the assault weapons bans. What is more troubling...
ROGERS: As does Bush.
RICCHETTI: What is more troubling is this -- that's exactly right.
(CROSSTALK)
RICCHETTI: Is that the president said that he would support the extension of the assault weapons ban. And just like he did on health care, just like he's done on job creation, just like he's done on environmental protection, it's all talk, no action.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, let me try again. Mr. Ricchetti, I'm just asking you a political question. You used to be in politics, I understand.
RICCHETTI: I did a little work there.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Isn't this a dumb political move? Your old friend Begala thinks it's dumb. I think it's dumb. Rogers thinks it's dumb. Let's all agree it is dumb.
(CROSSTALK)
RICCHETTI: I don't think it's dumb at all. I actually think the majority of Americans support extension of the assault weapons ban. It is a commonsense incremental approach. It will not interfere with one day of a person who wants to do hunting in America, any sports hunting, any fishing, any anything.
This thing is for the security and safety of the American people. And particularly in this post-9/11 environment, I can't believe we're having a squabble about something like this.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Let me turn to national security.
It seems to me the principal argument of the Bush/Cheney campaign is that John Kerry is too weak to be our commander in chief.
ROGERS: Among other things.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: If you looked at the hate fest in New York City that I attended, that was the point of the Republican Convention.
NOVAK: Hate fest?
BEGALA: Boston.
ROGERS: I was at the hate fest in Boston.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: There wasn't enough hate there for me.
(CROSSTALK)
RICCHETTI: It was the Bob Novak charm school that introduced all these guys.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, the secretary of state, Colin Powell, obviously works for President Bush.
ROGERS: Does a good job.
BEGALA: He does a great job.
ROGERS: Thank you.
ROGERS: He was asked a very pointed question about whether Kerry would be a strong commander in chief on "Meet the Press" yesterday. Here's Tim Russert's question and Secretary Powell's answer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "MEET THE PRESS")
TIM RUSSERT, HOST: Do you believe if John Kerry was elected and we were attacked by terrorists, he would simply treat it as a criminal act, or would he deal with it in a robust way, an act of war?
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: I can't tell you how he might respond to it. As commander in chief, I think he'd respond to it in a robust way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Colin Powell endorses John Kerry as a strong commander in chief.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE) BEGALA: That kind of puts a lie to the Dick Cheney-George Bush attack, doesn't it?
ROGERS: Is Colin Powell a great diplomat or what? I think he was sort of speaking to what he would generally believe. And "in a robust way," who knows what that means?
But he did a good job for purposes of being the secretary of state...
BEGALA: So Colin Powell's a liar?
ROGERS: No, no. Oh, come on. Come on.
BEGALA: Is that your position?
ROGERS: Not at all. Colin Powell said what he believes and he said he would respond -- any commander in chief would probably respond in a robust way. But would it be...
BEGALA: So why is Dick Cheney trying to tell lies about John Kerry, then?
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
ROGERS: In comparison to how Bush has responded, Bush's clarity, Bush's certainty...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: By reading "My Pet Goat" and hiding in the side of a mountain? That's what he did.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ROGERS: Taking the fight to the terrorists. There is no contest on who would take the fight to the terrorists. No contest.
NOVAK: Steve Ricchetti, there's no question that what -- the expose of all the phony aspects of John Kerry's war record, there has been a retaliation, going back to this old National Guard story.
But, again, I want to cite two very sharp Democratic consultants. The first is Bill Carrick, a good friend of mine, who is good out in Los Angeles. He said: "Does anybody believe that George Bush wasn't a skimmer who got out of the Vietnam War? The American people have moved beyond that. They don't need to know more details."
And then David Doak, another good Democratic consultant, says: "We stand at a disadvantage as a party whenever we talk about military issues. And I think we've seen that in that way we've taken a guy with a Silver Star, a Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts and lost that battle to someone who served in the National Guard."
These guys are saying, get off this subject. It's a loser for you.
RICCHETTI: I think they're dead wrong.
Look, the security issue for America is paramount. Everyone recognizes that. It is also paramount that we talk about economic and domestic issues as well. John Kerry can walk and chew bubblegum at the same time. It's essential. He will prove it. He defended our country before in Vietnam. It is shameful, these scurrilous attacks on his record and his service in Vietnam, absolutely shameful.
NOVAK: What's scurrilous about them?
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: They're from his comrades, and they're not forged documents. I've talked to three swift boat commanders.
(CROSSTALK)
RICCHETTI: The comrades who were there with him -- the argument about whether there were bullets flying over their head -- he is calling -- Jim Rassmann, he is calling Del Sandusky and everybody else who served with Senator Kerry, who verified his account, liars. It is absolutely unconscionable.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: They called Jim Rassmann a liar. Who is lying?
ROGERS: Wait a minute. Do you think the swift boat veterans are partisan liars, all of them?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Two-hundred and fifty, 250 combat veterans?
(CROSSTALK)
RICCHETTI: Yes. Yes. Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
RICCHETTI: I believe they are. They have grossly -- they have grossly, grossly misrepresented...
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: I'm glad somebody finally said it from the Kerry campaign.
BEGALA: But, Ed, it is true that the Pentagon records back up Senator Kerry's version. I understand people have different recollections. But the records back up Senator Kerry. There were allegations that Kerry had wounded himself from some of these...
NOVAK: He did. BEGALA: You think John Kerry wounded himself?
NOVAK: Accidentally. It's indisputable.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: That's not what the record shows.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: The notion that Kerry has gotten so off track -- look, he went there. He served. He got shot at one time, two times, four times. He got wounded once, three. That shouldn't be the issue. But the fact of the matter is, he has probably gilded the lily a little bit, and these swift boat veterans are not partisan liars.
BEGALA: And how about President Bush, when he says he even showed for duty was gilding the lily, wasn't it?
ROGERS: Oh, come on.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Next, in "Rapid Fire," is Kitty Kelley -- Kitty Kelley -- telling the truth in her new book about the Bush dynasty?
And Wolf Blitzer will have the latest on who's at risk from Hurricane Ivan. It's Ivan already? Right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in New York.
Coming up at the top of the hour, Hurricane Ivan comes closer to Cuba, but it could hit Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula instead. We'll have a complete update.
It will soon be legal again to buy an Uzi or an AK-47 in the United States. We'll tell you about the political fallout.
And what was Batman, yes, Batman, doing at Buckingham Palace? A political protest turns into a royal pain.
Those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
BEGALA: Welcome back. Time now for "Rapid Fire," where the questions and answers fly even faster than President Bush can hide from the powerful lobbyists who rolled him on the gun bill.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Republican consultant Ed Rogers is with us, and Steve Ricchetti, a former Clinton deputy chief of staff in the White House.
NOVAK: Steve, do you believe Kitty Kelley when she writes that George W. Bush as a young man used cocaine?
RICCHETTI: I don't need a new book to tell me that George Bush is irresponsible. I just have to look at the last four years.
(APPLAUSE)
RICCHETTI: It was irresponsible...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
RICCHETTI: It was irresponsible to take this country to war without having a plan to secure this peace. It's irresponsible to give three-quarters of a trillion dollars in tax cuts
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: "Rapid Fire."
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Isn't it true that Republicans would rather have people worrying about gossip from 20 or 30 years ago than read Seymour Hersh's book, where he talks about what he says the lies and obsessions that led America into Iraq? Isn't this the book you all fear more than Kitty Kelley's?
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: If they do research on Kitty Kelley and Seymour Hersh, I'm confident they'll discount both books.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Steve, Steve, how far would you go on gun control? Would you go as far as the District of Columbia, which bans all firearms in this city? Would you spread that over the whole country?
RICCHETTI: I would not, nor is that what John Kerry has recommended, a sensible approach to gun control, extend the assault weapons ban, just like police organizations all over America are advocating that we do.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Ed, yesterday on the Sunday shows, again, Secretary of State Colin Powell not only said that Kerry would be a strong commander in chief. He said there was no linkage between Saddam Hussein and 9/11. Will George W. Bush and Dick Cheney stop trying to infer that there was now?
(APPLAUSE)
ROGERS: Nine-eleven taught us an important lesson; 9/11 taught us an important lesson, that we cannot let peril draw near and that we have to preemptively take out those that would do us harm. That was the linkage with Iraq. That was the linkage that this administration talked about.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ROGERS: And that's what they have done.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGERS: The right thing to do.
NOVAK: You had a wonderful question, but we're out of time.
Steve Ricchetti, thank you very much.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Thank you, Ed Rogers.
He represents the home of the New England Patriots, but now John Kerry says he is a Green Bay Packer-loving cheesehead. We'll tell you why right after this.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Want to know who's going to win the battle for the White House two days early? Well, here's your answer, the team that wins the Halloween game between the Washington Redskins and the Green Bay Packers.
In the last 18 presidential elections, when the Redskins win their game just before Election Day, the incumbent party wins the White House, and when the Skins lose, the challenger wins the presidency. So it's easy to see why President Bush will be pulling for the Redskins October 31 and why Senator John Kerry is suddenly a Packers fan. Kerry says when the game is played -- quote -- "You're looking at the biggest cheesehead in America right here."
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: The problem is, you know, the other day, he didn't even know it's Lambeau Field. He called it Lambert Field. Typical Eastern snob.
BEGALA: Well, George W. Bush, if he switches from the Dallas Cowboys to the Washington Redskins, that would be the biggest flip- flop in American history. Mr. Bush needs to stick with his team.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: And they're the Cowboys. I gave up on pro football when the Houston Oilers left Houston. So I don't give a darn who wins any of these games anymore.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
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