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CNN Crossfire
Guard Memos: Real or Fake?
Aired September 15, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: Hurricane Ivan is ready to slam into the Gulf Coast. Local officials are warning people to get ready.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want them to get out as much as possible, as quickly as they can, because we just don't know what is going to happen with this.
ANNOUNCER: We'll have reports on the progress of the storm.
But Ivan hasn't blown politics off the front page yet. Controversy keeps swirling around those Bush National Guard documents. Did CBS ignore warnings they were fake before they put them on TV?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Hurricane Ivan is bearing down on the Gulf Coast. The powerful storm is expected to hit land in the next several hours. And the storm of the controversy continues at CBS. We'll debate whether the Bush National Guard memos are real or fake.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: But, first, let's check in with Jacqui Jeras for the latest on the path of Hurricane Ivan. She's in the CNN Weather Center in Atlanta -- Jacqui.
JACQUI JERAS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Well, Tucker, Ivan appears that it could be strengthening here. We'll have to wait to see until the top of the hour.
Right now, the maximum sustained winds are at 135 miles per hour. It's closing in to about 150 miles at the center making landfall. And we're likely going to see these hurricane force winds arriving within the next hour or two. We do have a report of a tornado now. This one is on the ground for Early and Miller counties in Georgia. Skywarn spotters did report a tornado near Colquitt as moving up to the northwest at 30 miles per hour.
There is a tornado watch in effect all across the Florida Panhandle, extending over into southern Alabama until 10:00 Central time. And as these outer bands spiral on in, we'll start to see more of these tornadoes likely begin to pop up, but only one ground truth to report at this time.
The forecast track has stayed about the same throughout much of the day. The storm is moving northward at 14 miles per hour, so it's picked up a little bit of forward speed. We may see the timing of this making landfall pick up a little bit to be closer to 3:00, 4:00 in the morning Central time, rather than 6:00 or 7:00.
As it makes its way onshore, it will likely weaken rather rapidly, but then it is going to stall out. So everybody who lives from the Central Appalachians down through the Southeast needs to be on high alert for a serious flood potential -- James.
CARVILLE: Thanks, Jacqui.
The mayor of New Orleans told people to get out of town before Ivan shows up. Northbound highways have been packed with folks taking his advice.
John Zarrella is in New Orleans. Let's ask him what's going on right now?
John, can you tell us what's happening in my favorite city in America?
(CROSSTALK)
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's hard to keep this city down here. And they're certainly still partying here in New Orleans, a couple of the bars open, waiting for the hurricane and serving hurricanes at the same time; 2:00 Central time, curfew went into effect here. A lot of people still, though, out on the streets. Police trying to get them off the streets, but not too successfully, particularly with, you know, latest word that Ivan may just give us a brushing here and not what would be a very catastrophic event had it hit us directly here.
And, you know, despite the curfew, up on Lake Pontchartrain, one of the big concerns is that water flowing in over the levees up there, winds recorded up there right around tropical storm force, 36 miles an hour, back side of the storm moving up, could bring some water inland. So flooding, of course, a very serious concern here.
The evacuations, as you mentioned, were in full swing yesterday. Lots of people, thousands of them, packing the highways, bumper-to- bumper gridlock. Not bad today. It's pretty quiet. People were told here today, if you haven't left already, stay in place, vertical evacuation. Find high buildings just in case the storm makes a jog to the left at the last minute and things are more serious here and there's more flooding. They did open the Louisiana Superdome for evacuees, people who didn't get out of the city. Not quite sure how many people have taken the city up on the offer. I know during past hurricanes, it has been packed with people at the Superdome. You know, they have 100,000 people here, James, who can't get out of the city who rely on public transportation. Those are the ones they worry about the most if things get bad here -- James.
CARVILLE: John, yes, I want you to explain to CNN, to CROSSFIRE viewers the problem with flooding and the fact that New Orleans is below sea level and the pumps. And tell our audience why flooding is such a problem in New Orleans that it's not in places where they live.
ZARRELLA: Yes, terrible, terrible issue all over here in lower New Orleans. You've got Lake Pontchartrain on one side, the Mississippi on the other, the Gulf of Mexico on a third side, and the city sits like bowl below sea level.
So if you have a bad hurricane coming inland, you could have where I'm standing some 15 feet of water here in the French Quarter. The entire city would go underwater. And the potential for loss of life in such an event would be catastrophic. But, once again, they have managed to dodge that bullet -- Tucker.
CARVILLE: Thanks, John, for that.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: All right. John Zarrella. I hope you get a hurricane while covering one. Thanks very much.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Well, there's been yet another comeback for a political fixture here in the nation's capital. How does Marion Barry keep doing it? And more to the point, why do Democrats keep letting him do it?
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: That's first up in the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Well, a major, but undercovered theme at this summer's Democratic Convention was statehood for Washington, D.C. Democrats are for it, passionately for it. So, with that in mind, consider how the capital city is doing with self-government so far. Last night, district Democrats gave Marion Barry their nomination in the city council race. That's about tantamount to election in this one-party town.
Think about that. Marion Barry, the crack-smoking, incompetent, openly racist former mayor for life, Democrats here in Washington believe Marion Barry is the best possible person their party could find for the job, the prototypical D.C. Democrat. And he may be right. No one from the Democratic National Committee seems to disagree. Keep this all in mind the next time you hear Democrats talk about D.C. statehood, because, today, Marion Barry may be joining the city council. Tomorrow, with the help of Democrats, he could be in the U.S. Senate.
CARVILLE: Well, let me get this straight. The Republicans nominate David Duke
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And that was appalling.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: No one wants to take the statehood away from Louisiana, do they?
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: ... national party. When David Duke was nominated....
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Hold on, James. The Republican Party had a heart attack when a creep like that was nominated. The Republicans got up...
CARVILLE: The people did it. But they didn't want to take statehood away from Louisiana. They didn't say people in Louisiana were stupid.
CARLSON: But the leaders -- the leaders of the party stood up and said, this guy is a creep; don't vote for him, as you remember. Democrats ought to do the same thing.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Again, I don't agree with it.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: But I don't think it means that people in D.C. shouldn't have statehood because they don't like the people they elect. They ought to be entitled to vote for who they want to.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I wouldn't have voted for Marion Barry, but let me say this.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Oh, you would have voted for Marion Barry. Come on.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: But he did say the favorite thing that I have ever heard.
CARLSON: What did Marion Barry say?
CARVILLE: He said, the witch set me up.
CARLSON: That's not what he said, James.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: I know. But they will have a heart attack. He said, the ditch set me up.
CARLSON: And, you know, she
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... actually.
CARVILLE: No. He said, the pitch set me up.
CARLSON: Yes.
CARVILLE: He said, the...
CARLSON: Oh, go ahead.
CARVILLE: No, I can't do it. I can't do it.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Give me something else. Let me try another one.
CARLSON: I've exhausted the synonyms, or the homonyms, or whatever.
CARVILLE: It starts with a B, but I'm not going to say. We certainly don't want anybody to have a heart attack because -- all right, here we go.
And for my muse today, I'll defer to my dear friend and frequent CROSSFIRE guest, Congressman Rahm Emanuel, and echo what he said on the floor of the House of Representatives today.
He began by saying, when the American president speaks, he must mean what he says. This is what President Bush says. But, unfortunately, this administration told us the Medicare bill would cost $395 billion, instead of the actual $550 billion tag. This administration promised to leave no child behind, but left funding $10 billion short.
This administration said it would cut the deficit in half by proposing $3 trillion in new spending. On top of all that, they said the tax cuts would create 5.6 million new jobs. So far, they're only six million short. The American public might want their president to think before he speaks. But this president never does.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: OK. I know -- I know your point, that Bush is bad, Bush is evil.
But the more interesting point to me is...
CARVILLE: What?
CARLSON: John Kerry has run for president solely on the premise, as Howard Dean did, that Bush is bad. Bush is evil. Bush is terrible.
CARVILLE: I don't think he's run for the president...
CARLSON: Yes, he has.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He wrote a whole book about what he wants to do. What are you talking about? Do want me to give you the book?
CARLSON: It's the thinnest book, the most boring book ever, because there's nothing in it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Have you read it?
CARLSON: His whole campaign is based on the idea that Bush is bad. And that isn't getting him victory.
CARVILLE: No, I think John Kerry has specific plans of what he wants to do on health care, the economy.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: And I think you're going to see specific plans about Iraq.
CARLSON: When is he going to share them with us?
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: It's less than two months until the election. Maybe he should go and tell us what he
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: That's up to the presidential candidate. What does Bush want to do besides take us to a war that he didn't plan for?
(BELL RINGING)
(APPLAUSE) CARLSON: All right.
Well, several members of Congress say CBS News ought to be investigated for its use of probably forged documents in the story about President Bush's service record. We'll have the latest on the growing scandal over those apparently phony memos just ahead.
Also, of course, we're keeping an eye on Hurricane Ivan. Stay tuned for a storm update in just a few moments from now.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Like this year's hurricanes, there's another story that won't go away, the memo CBS came up with saying President Bush skipped out on his commitment to the Texas Air National Guard. More document experts have questioned the validity of the memos, and the 86-year-old secretary of Bush's former commander says that, while she agrees with what the memos say, she didn't type them. Real or fake?
In the CROSSFIRE, Jim Dyke, communications director for the Republican National Committee, and Kerry adviser Ann Lewis. She's also national chairwoman of the Democratic National Women's Vote Center.
CARLSON: All right.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Ann Lewis, thanks for joining us.
Less than two weeks ago, I think, John Kerry and the Kerry campaign came out and say, look, you know, we know that we've screwed it up to this point. We've talked about Vietnam, at the exclusion of the issues. Democrats are mad at us. We're going to knock it off, hire some new campaign people and start hitting Bush on the issues, the ones that really matter. We're going to stop obsessing on Vietnam.
That was the story two weeks ago. Yesterday, Terry McAuliffe comes out and says this -- quote -- President Bush, you know, didn't really serve in the National Guard, or whatever, something that happened 30 years ago. Until he answers these questions -- quote -- "we will raise these issues every single day up to Election Day."
Question one, does no one have control of Terry McAuliffe? Question two, do you think really you're going to win the presidency talking about the National Guard 30 years ago? Question three, who is in control of the Kerry campaign?
(APPLAUSE)
ANN LEWIS, NATIONAL CHAIR, WOMEN'S VOTE CENTER: All right, question one, are we going to talk about the issues? I'm so glad. I understood just before I came out, that, Tucker, that you said you didn't know what John Kerry was for. He's got a plan for health care. He's got a plan to make the economy.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's the most boring book I've ever read, honestly.
(APPLAUSE)
LEWIS: In other words, it's a real book. You know what the problem is? You say it's boring. It's about issues.
CARLSON: There's nothing in it.
LEWIS: John Kerry is out there talking about issues. He talked about health care yesterday. He's talking about the economy today.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Then why is Terry McAuliffe strategy they're talking about Vietnam every day until the election?
LEWIS: Because we are capable at the Democratic Party of doing more than one thing at a time. I reckon other people try it.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
LEWIS: Come on, guys. You can do it.
(LAUGHTER)
LEWIS: We have serious questions that have been raised about George Bush's credibility. This is the president who said when he was a candidate, if you remember, I didn't get special treatment to get into the National Guard. Right, like they had posters in store windows, come here. And now it turns out not only did he get special treatment. He told his professor at Harvard he knew he got special treatment. This is the president who said, I fulfilled my obligations.
CARLSON: Good luck with that. Good luck with that.
LEWIS: He didn't.
So you know what? We're going to keep talking. John Kerry's going to talk about the issues. He's going to talk about how we bring jobs to this country, how we lower the cost of health care. And, meanwhile, we're going to have a discussion about George Bush's credibility.
CARLSON: All right.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Mr. Dyke, I think it is the issue of credibility here. And the president said that he fulfilled his duty in Alabama while he was in Alabama. There's a $60,000 bounty for anybody that can come forward and say that they actually saw him. And it remains uncollected. Is there somehow or another we can get this $60,000 to somebody? Because it's out there. Can you think of -- give me somebody. Come you come up with a name?
(APPLAUSE)
JIM DYKE, RNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: I think the questions have been asked. They've been answered.
CARVILLE: They haven't been answered. They're $60,000 sitting there, 60 grand.
DYKE: The documents have been put forward. The president was honorably discharged.
CARVILLE: Right.
DYKE: But this is the old playbook. This is the obsession that Democrats have. I'll take the...
CARVILLE: This is a $20 bill.
(LAUGHTER)
DYKE: I'll take it.
CARVILLE: For somebody that saw him there can get 300,000 of these. All they got to do is say, you know what, I saw the president there; 300,000 of these little puppies await somebody that will come forward and actually say that they saw him there after he claims he was there. I don't need a talking point. Get $60,000 right here.
(CROSSTALK)
DYKE: Hang on a second, because this is what the Democrats want to do.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
DYKE: They can't talk about John Kerry's plans in Iraq, because he doesn't have a plan, because he's been all over the place.
We've got a documentary here, 12 minutes of John Kerry's evolution of what he's going to do in Iraq or not do or pull troops out or whatever it may be. It's...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Now, according to the polls
(CROSSTALK) CARLSON: How many Americans care? How many Americans are going to decide who to vote for, for president based on where Bush was in Alabama 30 years ago? Do you know?
CARVILLE: Three hundred thousand of these, America.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Have you done a polling on that?
DYKE: According to Howard Wolfson yesterday, he believes that the focus on Vietnam is good for the Kerry campaign, is good for the DNC. It's closing the polls. It's working. I don't know that I agree with that. We think the education and economic growth and those types of things are important.
CARVILLE: Count off 300,000 of these.
DYKE: I'll take the money.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Give me the name of somebody that saw President Bush in Alabama.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Ann Lewis, if I could just jump ahead by 30 years or so into reality and the present.
LEWIS: Yes.
CARLSON: The CBS story, sort of amazing.
One of the markers, it seems to me, for insanity is a conspiracist world view, is, there are secret plots going on behind the scenes that you can't see, but that I uniquely know about. Howard Wolfson, who works at the DNC, yesterday revealed one of these plots on air right here on CROSSFIRE.
He was asked by Bob Novak, these memos that went to CBS: "Did you give the memos to the CBS?" Did the DNC give the memos to CBS? Here's what Howard Wolfson said. Watch carefully.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Did you give the memos to CBS?
HOWARD WOLFSON, DNC SR. COMMUNICATIONS ADVISER: Of course not. I think it's more likely that it came from someone like Karl Rove than It came from someone on our side.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: Yes.
So, in other words, Karl Rove, the president's chief political adviser, has been leaking fake memos damaging to President Bush to CBS News. Now, even to say something that demented on air does call into question I think your judgment, if not your sanity.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Tell me you're not in the grassy-knoll camp on this.
(APPLAUSE)
LEWIS: Let me be very clear, it was not Howard Wolfson, my friend, or anybody at the Democratic National Committee who originally suggested that these documents originated in a political campaign. It was, I believe, somebody on the Republican side who said that these documents might have been given to CBS by the DNC.
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: That's demented conspiracy thinking.
But can we just say Howard was trying to make a joke? Maybe next time when you make a joke to Republicans, put up a sign that says joke.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... offer some more money.
Jim Fallows in this week's "Atlantic" says, OK, and I'll give you $20 a name -- "It's hard to find a counterterrorism specialist who thinks that the Iraq war has reduced, rather than increased the threat to the United States. Now, Mr. Fallows is not -- for him to say that -- do you know some names of people that actually think that this war has actually decreased the threat to the United States?
DYKE: Absolutely.
CARVILLE: Who?
DYKE: Absolutely. There are plenty of people who believe that the threat has been reduced.
CARVILLE: Who? Who?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Like 50 percent of the American public, I would say.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Like who? Name me a counterterrorism expert that says that this Iraqi war has decreased the threat of terrorism in the United States.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Mr. Fallows has said that. I'm asking you to call him a liar.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Give the man a chance to answer.
DYKE: It's a wonderful speech.
But the problem with it is, is, there's two approaches to how we deal with terrorism. One is to fight the terrorists where they are, take the fight to the terrorists. The other is the law enforcement approach. Senator Kerry has made clear that he prefers the law enforcement approach, that he would....
CARVILLE: Twenty bucks.
DYKE: Am I getting paid for each answer?
CARVILLE: Twenty bucks a name. Twenty bucks a name for anybody, any counterterrorism expert outside the administration that says that this war has decreased the threat of terrorism.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: All right, we're going to have to take a quick break.
DYKE: I'll take you up on that. I'll take you up on that.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: So there are over 100 million Americans who agree, but I guess they don't count because they're not experts.
We'll debate this more. Next in "Rapid Fire," we'll find out why some Democrats, many Democrats, are questioning whether anyone at all is in charge at the Kerry headquarters. And, if so, have they been drinking?
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Just ahead, Jacqui Jeras will have the latest on the track of Hurricane Ivan.
CNN will provide live coverage, needless to say, throughout the night. So stay tuned to CNN, the most trusted name in news.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JERAS: I'm meteorologist Jacqui Jeras.
We have brand new information on Hurricane Ivan. It's closed in to within 125 miles south of the Alabama coast. The hurricane force winds extend out 100 miles from the center of the storm. So it's going to be likely another hour and a half once we start to see those winds arriving. Maximum sustained winds are holding steady at 135 miles per hour, remaining a Category 4.
And it likely will be a Category 4, possibly a strong Category 3, but we think it's more likely now that it's going to stay at 4 status when it makes landfall. The timing of this is going to be moved up a little bit, as it's sustained a forward speed at 14 miles per hour. The location has shifted ever so slightly on off to the west at this time. We're still looking at the Mobile Bay area.
We're going to switch over to the radar image and show you that and kind of zoom into the area. We were initially thinking maybe into the eastern bay, but right now it looks like perhaps it could push towards the western bay. If it does that, that means that the storm surge could be much greater throughout that area, 10 to 16 feet.
We'll have much more information on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" at the top of the hour.
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: Welcome back.
It's time now for "Rapid Fire," where the political winds can and often do reach storm level. Our guests today, Ann Lewis of the Democratic National Committee's Women's Vote Center, and also communications director from the RNC, Jim Dyke.
CARVILLE: Hello. Mr. Dyke, do you think that the war has gone well or not so well in Iraq?
DYKE: The war, we have to fight. And we have to fight it Iraq. The terrorists have made clear that they're coming to fight us here. We need to fight them there. And we need...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Is it going well or not so well?
DYKE: Well, we need to take the fight to the terrorists. War is not easy.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: War is not easy. Not well, OK.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Now, now, Ann, Tony Coelho the other day, Gore's former campaign manager, said what most Democrats I know think, which is the campaign's a disaster. Nobody basically is in charge of the Kerry campaign. It's in chaos. You agree with that. You must agree with that deep down.
LEWIS: No. And let me tell you, I don't find any voters who want to know who sits in what chair in the Kerry campaign. What voters want to know is what are we going to do about jobs, what are we going to do about health insurance, what are we going to do to change the direction of this country.
(APPLAUSE)
LEWIS: John Kerry's talking about the right issues. And that's what's important.
CARVILLE: The vice president said there was a link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11. The secretary of state went on television Sunday and said there was no link. Could you -- who's right, Vice President Cheney or Secretary of State Powell? I'm confused.
DYKE: There's no doubt that there are links between Saddam Hussein's regime and supporting terrorism, sending people into Israel to blow themselves up. There's no question that there's a link. Again, there's a fundamental...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I'm confused. Is the vice president right or the secretary of state? Just one.
DYKE: I understand.
CARVILLE: Make a call.
DYKE: I understand you're confused.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: I know, but make a call.
(APPLAUSE)
DYKE: There's a fundamental question here. And it's how we fight the war on terror. And we were right to go into Iraq. President Bush has been very clear about that. Senator Kerry has been so confused that, after watching 12 minutes of his own statements, I have no idea what his position is.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: And I have no idea what your answer is either.
CARLSON: Ann Lewis, very quickly, John Kerry needs to explain his position in Iraq. Can you pledge here now he will stop talking about Vietnam and events from 30 years ago?
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Please? Please? Please?
LEWIS: No.
Let me pledge right now that if it's a question on foreign policy between Secretary of State Powell and Vice President Cheney, who is the guy who originally told us he was sure there were weapons of mass destruction he knew where they were...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's what Powell said.
LEWIS: No, that was Vice President Cheney who said that.
CARLSON: Well, Powell said that to the U.N.
LEWIS: We're going to go with Secretary Powell, who understands foreign policy and knows what's right.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: All right. All right.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm sorry. We are completely out of time.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Ann Lewis, Jim Dyke, two of our all-time favorites, thank you both very much.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Thank you so much.
CARLSON: Well, they say there's nothing like Paris in the springtime. What about Paris on Capitol Hill? We'll have the latest on that intriguing, very intriguing, very intriguing, possibility when we come back.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Well, she's rich. She has her own television show. She even has a hit video. But for Paris Hilton, there's even more. Hilton's show, "The Simple Life," recently decided to seek Capitol Hill internships for Paris and co-star Nicole Richie. Producers contacted House Speaker Dennis Hastert and Senate Republican Conference Chairman Rick Santorum. The producers wanted to see if the girls could -- quote -- "help with administrative duties" or -- quote -- "draft a bill for Congress."
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Well, it turns out the Republicans did not bite, which means no such show. And American entertainment becomes a little poorer.
CARVILLE: Yes.
CARLSON: James, now, you know Paris Hilton.
CARVILLE: Right.
CARLSON: Didn't you run into her recently?
CARVILLE: I was on "The View," which is a great TV show.
CARLSON: It is a great show. I agree with that.
CARVILLE: I really enjoyed it.
CARLSON: So how was Paris?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Well, I think they ought to, because I know she could draft a better bill than Hastert or Santorum. They ought to give her a shot at it.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: She's a Kerry voter.
CARVILLE: She couldn't do any worse as an intern.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: He's a Kerry voter.
CARVILLE: So they ought to give her a shot.
From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE.
Stay tuned to CNN for complete hurricane coverage. See you tomorrow.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired September 15, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: Hurricane Ivan is ready to slam into the Gulf Coast. Local officials are warning people to get ready.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want them to get out as much as possible, as quickly as they can, because we just don't know what is going to happen with this.
ANNOUNCER: We'll have reports on the progress of the storm.
But Ivan hasn't blown politics off the front page yet. Controversy keeps swirling around those Bush National Guard documents. Did CBS ignore warnings they were fake before they put them on TV?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Hurricane Ivan is bearing down on the Gulf Coast. The powerful storm is expected to hit land in the next several hours. And the storm of the controversy continues at CBS. We'll debate whether the Bush National Guard memos are real or fake.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: But, first, let's check in with Jacqui Jeras for the latest on the path of Hurricane Ivan. She's in the CNN Weather Center in Atlanta -- Jacqui.
JACQUI JERAS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Well, Tucker, Ivan appears that it could be strengthening here. We'll have to wait to see until the top of the hour.
Right now, the maximum sustained winds are at 135 miles per hour. It's closing in to about 150 miles at the center making landfall. And we're likely going to see these hurricane force winds arriving within the next hour or two. We do have a report of a tornado now. This one is on the ground for Early and Miller counties in Georgia. Skywarn spotters did report a tornado near Colquitt as moving up to the northwest at 30 miles per hour.
There is a tornado watch in effect all across the Florida Panhandle, extending over into southern Alabama until 10:00 Central time. And as these outer bands spiral on in, we'll start to see more of these tornadoes likely begin to pop up, but only one ground truth to report at this time.
The forecast track has stayed about the same throughout much of the day. The storm is moving northward at 14 miles per hour, so it's picked up a little bit of forward speed. We may see the timing of this making landfall pick up a little bit to be closer to 3:00, 4:00 in the morning Central time, rather than 6:00 or 7:00.
As it makes its way onshore, it will likely weaken rather rapidly, but then it is going to stall out. So everybody who lives from the Central Appalachians down through the Southeast needs to be on high alert for a serious flood potential -- James.
CARVILLE: Thanks, Jacqui.
The mayor of New Orleans told people to get out of town before Ivan shows up. Northbound highways have been packed with folks taking his advice.
John Zarrella is in New Orleans. Let's ask him what's going on right now?
John, can you tell us what's happening in my favorite city in America?
(CROSSTALK)
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's hard to keep this city down here. And they're certainly still partying here in New Orleans, a couple of the bars open, waiting for the hurricane and serving hurricanes at the same time; 2:00 Central time, curfew went into effect here. A lot of people still, though, out on the streets. Police trying to get them off the streets, but not too successfully, particularly with, you know, latest word that Ivan may just give us a brushing here and not what would be a very catastrophic event had it hit us directly here.
And, you know, despite the curfew, up on Lake Pontchartrain, one of the big concerns is that water flowing in over the levees up there, winds recorded up there right around tropical storm force, 36 miles an hour, back side of the storm moving up, could bring some water inland. So flooding, of course, a very serious concern here.
The evacuations, as you mentioned, were in full swing yesterday. Lots of people, thousands of them, packing the highways, bumper-to- bumper gridlock. Not bad today. It's pretty quiet. People were told here today, if you haven't left already, stay in place, vertical evacuation. Find high buildings just in case the storm makes a jog to the left at the last minute and things are more serious here and there's more flooding. They did open the Louisiana Superdome for evacuees, people who didn't get out of the city. Not quite sure how many people have taken the city up on the offer. I know during past hurricanes, it has been packed with people at the Superdome. You know, they have 100,000 people here, James, who can't get out of the city who rely on public transportation. Those are the ones they worry about the most if things get bad here -- James.
CARVILLE: John, yes, I want you to explain to CNN, to CROSSFIRE viewers the problem with flooding and the fact that New Orleans is below sea level and the pumps. And tell our audience why flooding is such a problem in New Orleans that it's not in places where they live.
ZARRELLA: Yes, terrible, terrible issue all over here in lower New Orleans. You've got Lake Pontchartrain on one side, the Mississippi on the other, the Gulf of Mexico on a third side, and the city sits like bowl below sea level.
So if you have a bad hurricane coming inland, you could have where I'm standing some 15 feet of water here in the French Quarter. The entire city would go underwater. And the potential for loss of life in such an event would be catastrophic. But, once again, they have managed to dodge that bullet -- Tucker.
CARVILLE: Thanks, John, for that.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: All right. John Zarrella. I hope you get a hurricane while covering one. Thanks very much.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Well, there's been yet another comeback for a political fixture here in the nation's capital. How does Marion Barry keep doing it? And more to the point, why do Democrats keep letting him do it?
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: That's first up in the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Well, a major, but undercovered theme at this summer's Democratic Convention was statehood for Washington, D.C. Democrats are for it, passionately for it. So, with that in mind, consider how the capital city is doing with self-government so far. Last night, district Democrats gave Marion Barry their nomination in the city council race. That's about tantamount to election in this one-party town.
Think about that. Marion Barry, the crack-smoking, incompetent, openly racist former mayor for life, Democrats here in Washington believe Marion Barry is the best possible person their party could find for the job, the prototypical D.C. Democrat. And he may be right. No one from the Democratic National Committee seems to disagree. Keep this all in mind the next time you hear Democrats talk about D.C. statehood, because, today, Marion Barry may be joining the city council. Tomorrow, with the help of Democrats, he could be in the U.S. Senate.
CARVILLE: Well, let me get this straight. The Republicans nominate David Duke
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And that was appalling.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: No one wants to take the statehood away from Louisiana, do they?
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: ... national party. When David Duke was nominated....
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Hold on, James. The Republican Party had a heart attack when a creep like that was nominated. The Republicans got up...
CARVILLE: The people did it. But they didn't want to take statehood away from Louisiana. They didn't say people in Louisiana were stupid.
CARLSON: But the leaders -- the leaders of the party stood up and said, this guy is a creep; don't vote for him, as you remember. Democrats ought to do the same thing.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Again, I don't agree with it.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: But I don't think it means that people in D.C. shouldn't have statehood because they don't like the people they elect. They ought to be entitled to vote for who they want to.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I wouldn't have voted for Marion Barry, but let me say this.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Oh, you would have voted for Marion Barry. Come on.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: But he did say the favorite thing that I have ever heard.
CARLSON: What did Marion Barry say?
CARVILLE: He said, the witch set me up.
CARLSON: That's not what he said, James.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: I know. But they will have a heart attack. He said, the ditch set me up.
CARLSON: And, you know, she
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... actually.
CARVILLE: No. He said, the pitch set me up.
CARLSON: Yes.
CARVILLE: He said, the...
CARLSON: Oh, go ahead.
CARVILLE: No, I can't do it. I can't do it.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Give me something else. Let me try another one.
CARLSON: I've exhausted the synonyms, or the homonyms, or whatever.
CARVILLE: It starts with a B, but I'm not going to say. We certainly don't want anybody to have a heart attack because -- all right, here we go.
And for my muse today, I'll defer to my dear friend and frequent CROSSFIRE guest, Congressman Rahm Emanuel, and echo what he said on the floor of the House of Representatives today.
He began by saying, when the American president speaks, he must mean what he says. This is what President Bush says. But, unfortunately, this administration told us the Medicare bill would cost $395 billion, instead of the actual $550 billion tag. This administration promised to leave no child behind, but left funding $10 billion short.
This administration said it would cut the deficit in half by proposing $3 trillion in new spending. On top of all that, they said the tax cuts would create 5.6 million new jobs. So far, they're only six million short. The American public might want their president to think before he speaks. But this president never does.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: OK. I know -- I know your point, that Bush is bad, Bush is evil.
But the more interesting point to me is...
CARVILLE: What?
CARLSON: John Kerry has run for president solely on the premise, as Howard Dean did, that Bush is bad. Bush is evil. Bush is terrible.
CARVILLE: I don't think he's run for the president...
CARLSON: Yes, he has.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He wrote a whole book about what he wants to do. What are you talking about? Do want me to give you the book?
CARLSON: It's the thinnest book, the most boring book ever, because there's nothing in it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Have you read it?
CARLSON: His whole campaign is based on the idea that Bush is bad. And that isn't getting him victory.
CARVILLE: No, I think John Kerry has specific plans of what he wants to do on health care, the economy.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: And I think you're going to see specific plans about Iraq.
CARLSON: When is he going to share them with us?
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: It's less than two months until the election. Maybe he should go and tell us what he
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: That's up to the presidential candidate. What does Bush want to do besides take us to a war that he didn't plan for?
(BELL RINGING)
(APPLAUSE) CARLSON: All right.
Well, several members of Congress say CBS News ought to be investigated for its use of probably forged documents in the story about President Bush's service record. We'll have the latest on the growing scandal over those apparently phony memos just ahead.
Also, of course, we're keeping an eye on Hurricane Ivan. Stay tuned for a storm update in just a few moments from now.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Like this year's hurricanes, there's another story that won't go away, the memo CBS came up with saying President Bush skipped out on his commitment to the Texas Air National Guard. More document experts have questioned the validity of the memos, and the 86-year-old secretary of Bush's former commander says that, while she agrees with what the memos say, she didn't type them. Real or fake?
In the CROSSFIRE, Jim Dyke, communications director for the Republican National Committee, and Kerry adviser Ann Lewis. She's also national chairwoman of the Democratic National Women's Vote Center.
CARLSON: All right.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Ann Lewis, thanks for joining us.
Less than two weeks ago, I think, John Kerry and the Kerry campaign came out and say, look, you know, we know that we've screwed it up to this point. We've talked about Vietnam, at the exclusion of the issues. Democrats are mad at us. We're going to knock it off, hire some new campaign people and start hitting Bush on the issues, the ones that really matter. We're going to stop obsessing on Vietnam.
That was the story two weeks ago. Yesterday, Terry McAuliffe comes out and says this -- quote -- President Bush, you know, didn't really serve in the National Guard, or whatever, something that happened 30 years ago. Until he answers these questions -- quote -- "we will raise these issues every single day up to Election Day."
Question one, does no one have control of Terry McAuliffe? Question two, do you think really you're going to win the presidency talking about the National Guard 30 years ago? Question three, who is in control of the Kerry campaign?
(APPLAUSE)
ANN LEWIS, NATIONAL CHAIR, WOMEN'S VOTE CENTER: All right, question one, are we going to talk about the issues? I'm so glad. I understood just before I came out, that, Tucker, that you said you didn't know what John Kerry was for. He's got a plan for health care. He's got a plan to make the economy.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's the most boring book I've ever read, honestly.
(APPLAUSE)
LEWIS: In other words, it's a real book. You know what the problem is? You say it's boring. It's about issues.
CARLSON: There's nothing in it.
LEWIS: John Kerry is out there talking about issues. He talked about health care yesterday. He's talking about the economy today.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Then why is Terry McAuliffe strategy they're talking about Vietnam every day until the election?
LEWIS: Because we are capable at the Democratic Party of doing more than one thing at a time. I reckon other people try it.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
LEWIS: Come on, guys. You can do it.
(LAUGHTER)
LEWIS: We have serious questions that have been raised about George Bush's credibility. This is the president who said when he was a candidate, if you remember, I didn't get special treatment to get into the National Guard. Right, like they had posters in store windows, come here. And now it turns out not only did he get special treatment. He told his professor at Harvard he knew he got special treatment. This is the president who said, I fulfilled my obligations.
CARLSON: Good luck with that. Good luck with that.
LEWIS: He didn't.
So you know what? We're going to keep talking. John Kerry's going to talk about the issues. He's going to talk about how we bring jobs to this country, how we lower the cost of health care. And, meanwhile, we're going to have a discussion about George Bush's credibility.
CARLSON: All right.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Mr. Dyke, I think it is the issue of credibility here. And the president said that he fulfilled his duty in Alabama while he was in Alabama. There's a $60,000 bounty for anybody that can come forward and say that they actually saw him. And it remains uncollected. Is there somehow or another we can get this $60,000 to somebody? Because it's out there. Can you think of -- give me somebody. Come you come up with a name?
(APPLAUSE)
JIM DYKE, RNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: I think the questions have been asked. They've been answered.
CARVILLE: They haven't been answered. They're $60,000 sitting there, 60 grand.
DYKE: The documents have been put forward. The president was honorably discharged.
CARVILLE: Right.
DYKE: But this is the old playbook. This is the obsession that Democrats have. I'll take the...
CARVILLE: This is a $20 bill.
(LAUGHTER)
DYKE: I'll take it.
CARVILLE: For somebody that saw him there can get 300,000 of these. All they got to do is say, you know what, I saw the president there; 300,000 of these little puppies await somebody that will come forward and actually say that they saw him there after he claims he was there. I don't need a talking point. Get $60,000 right here.
(CROSSTALK)
DYKE: Hang on a second, because this is what the Democrats want to do.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
DYKE: They can't talk about John Kerry's plans in Iraq, because he doesn't have a plan, because he's been all over the place.
We've got a documentary here, 12 minutes of John Kerry's evolution of what he's going to do in Iraq or not do or pull troops out or whatever it may be. It's...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Now, according to the polls
(CROSSTALK) CARLSON: How many Americans care? How many Americans are going to decide who to vote for, for president based on where Bush was in Alabama 30 years ago? Do you know?
CARVILLE: Three hundred thousand of these, America.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Have you done a polling on that?
DYKE: According to Howard Wolfson yesterday, he believes that the focus on Vietnam is good for the Kerry campaign, is good for the DNC. It's closing the polls. It's working. I don't know that I agree with that. We think the education and economic growth and those types of things are important.
CARVILLE: Count off 300,000 of these.
DYKE: I'll take the money.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Give me the name of somebody that saw President Bush in Alabama.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Ann Lewis, if I could just jump ahead by 30 years or so into reality and the present.
LEWIS: Yes.
CARLSON: The CBS story, sort of amazing.
One of the markers, it seems to me, for insanity is a conspiracist world view, is, there are secret plots going on behind the scenes that you can't see, but that I uniquely know about. Howard Wolfson, who works at the DNC, yesterday revealed one of these plots on air right here on CROSSFIRE.
He was asked by Bob Novak, these memos that went to CBS: "Did you give the memos to the CBS?" Did the DNC give the memos to CBS? Here's what Howard Wolfson said. Watch carefully.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Did you give the memos to CBS?
HOWARD WOLFSON, DNC SR. COMMUNICATIONS ADVISER: Of course not. I think it's more likely that it came from someone like Karl Rove than It came from someone on our side.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: Yes.
So, in other words, Karl Rove, the president's chief political adviser, has been leaking fake memos damaging to President Bush to CBS News. Now, even to say something that demented on air does call into question I think your judgment, if not your sanity.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Tell me you're not in the grassy-knoll camp on this.
(APPLAUSE)
LEWIS: Let me be very clear, it was not Howard Wolfson, my friend, or anybody at the Democratic National Committee who originally suggested that these documents originated in a political campaign. It was, I believe, somebody on the Republican side who said that these documents might have been given to CBS by the DNC.
(CROSSTALK)
LEWIS: That's demented conspiracy thinking.
But can we just say Howard was trying to make a joke? Maybe next time when you make a joke to Republicans, put up a sign that says joke.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... offer some more money.
Jim Fallows in this week's "Atlantic" says, OK, and I'll give you $20 a name -- "It's hard to find a counterterrorism specialist who thinks that the Iraq war has reduced, rather than increased the threat to the United States. Now, Mr. Fallows is not -- for him to say that -- do you know some names of people that actually think that this war has actually decreased the threat to the United States?
DYKE: Absolutely.
CARVILLE: Who?
DYKE: Absolutely. There are plenty of people who believe that the threat has been reduced.
CARVILLE: Who? Who?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Like 50 percent of the American public, I would say.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Like who? Name me a counterterrorism expert that says that this Iraqi war has decreased the threat of terrorism in the United States.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Mr. Fallows has said that. I'm asking you to call him a liar.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Give the man a chance to answer.
DYKE: It's a wonderful speech.
But the problem with it is, is, there's two approaches to how we deal with terrorism. One is to fight the terrorists where they are, take the fight to the terrorists. The other is the law enforcement approach. Senator Kerry has made clear that he prefers the law enforcement approach, that he would....
CARVILLE: Twenty bucks.
DYKE: Am I getting paid for each answer?
CARVILLE: Twenty bucks a name. Twenty bucks a name for anybody, any counterterrorism expert outside the administration that says that this war has decreased the threat of terrorism.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: All right, we're going to have to take a quick break.
DYKE: I'll take you up on that. I'll take you up on that.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: So there are over 100 million Americans who agree, but I guess they don't count because they're not experts.
We'll debate this more. Next in "Rapid Fire," we'll find out why some Democrats, many Democrats, are questioning whether anyone at all is in charge at the Kerry headquarters. And, if so, have they been drinking?
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Just ahead, Jacqui Jeras will have the latest on the track of Hurricane Ivan.
CNN will provide live coverage, needless to say, throughout the night. So stay tuned to CNN, the most trusted name in news.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JERAS: I'm meteorologist Jacqui Jeras.
We have brand new information on Hurricane Ivan. It's closed in to within 125 miles south of the Alabama coast. The hurricane force winds extend out 100 miles from the center of the storm. So it's going to be likely another hour and a half once we start to see those winds arriving. Maximum sustained winds are holding steady at 135 miles per hour, remaining a Category 4.
And it likely will be a Category 4, possibly a strong Category 3, but we think it's more likely now that it's going to stay at 4 status when it makes landfall. The timing of this is going to be moved up a little bit, as it's sustained a forward speed at 14 miles per hour. The location has shifted ever so slightly on off to the west at this time. We're still looking at the Mobile Bay area.
We're going to switch over to the radar image and show you that and kind of zoom into the area. We were initially thinking maybe into the eastern bay, but right now it looks like perhaps it could push towards the western bay. If it does that, that means that the storm surge could be much greater throughout that area, 10 to 16 feet.
We'll have much more information on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" at the top of the hour.
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: Welcome back.
It's time now for "Rapid Fire," where the political winds can and often do reach storm level. Our guests today, Ann Lewis of the Democratic National Committee's Women's Vote Center, and also communications director from the RNC, Jim Dyke.
CARVILLE: Hello. Mr. Dyke, do you think that the war has gone well or not so well in Iraq?
DYKE: The war, we have to fight. And we have to fight it Iraq. The terrorists have made clear that they're coming to fight us here. We need to fight them there. And we need...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Is it going well or not so well?
DYKE: Well, we need to take the fight to the terrorists. War is not easy.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: War is not easy. Not well, OK.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Now, now, Ann, Tony Coelho the other day, Gore's former campaign manager, said what most Democrats I know think, which is the campaign's a disaster. Nobody basically is in charge of the Kerry campaign. It's in chaos. You agree with that. You must agree with that deep down.
LEWIS: No. And let me tell you, I don't find any voters who want to know who sits in what chair in the Kerry campaign. What voters want to know is what are we going to do about jobs, what are we going to do about health insurance, what are we going to do to change the direction of this country.
(APPLAUSE)
LEWIS: John Kerry's talking about the right issues. And that's what's important.
CARVILLE: The vice president said there was a link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11. The secretary of state went on television Sunday and said there was no link. Could you -- who's right, Vice President Cheney or Secretary of State Powell? I'm confused.
DYKE: There's no doubt that there are links between Saddam Hussein's regime and supporting terrorism, sending people into Israel to blow themselves up. There's no question that there's a link. Again, there's a fundamental...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I'm confused. Is the vice president right or the secretary of state? Just one.
DYKE: I understand.
CARVILLE: Make a call.
DYKE: I understand you're confused.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: I know, but make a call.
(APPLAUSE)
DYKE: There's a fundamental question here. And it's how we fight the war on terror. And we were right to go into Iraq. President Bush has been very clear about that. Senator Kerry has been so confused that, after watching 12 minutes of his own statements, I have no idea what his position is.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: And I have no idea what your answer is either.
CARLSON: Ann Lewis, very quickly, John Kerry needs to explain his position in Iraq. Can you pledge here now he will stop talking about Vietnam and events from 30 years ago?
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Please? Please? Please?
LEWIS: No.
Let me pledge right now that if it's a question on foreign policy between Secretary of State Powell and Vice President Cheney, who is the guy who originally told us he was sure there were weapons of mass destruction he knew where they were...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's what Powell said.
LEWIS: No, that was Vice President Cheney who said that.
CARLSON: Well, Powell said that to the U.N.
LEWIS: We're going to go with Secretary Powell, who understands foreign policy and knows what's right.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: All right. All right.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm sorry. We are completely out of time.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Ann Lewis, Jim Dyke, two of our all-time favorites, thank you both very much.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Thank you so much.
CARLSON: Well, they say there's nothing like Paris in the springtime. What about Paris on Capitol Hill? We'll have the latest on that intriguing, very intriguing, very intriguing, possibility when we come back.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Well, she's rich. She has her own television show. She even has a hit video. But for Paris Hilton, there's even more. Hilton's show, "The Simple Life," recently decided to seek Capitol Hill internships for Paris and co-star Nicole Richie. Producers contacted House Speaker Dennis Hastert and Senate Republican Conference Chairman Rick Santorum. The producers wanted to see if the girls could -- quote -- "help with administrative duties" or -- quote -- "draft a bill for Congress."
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Well, it turns out the Republicans did not bite, which means no such show. And American entertainment becomes a little poorer.
CARVILLE: Yes.
CARLSON: James, now, you know Paris Hilton.
CARVILLE: Right.
CARLSON: Didn't you run into her recently?
CARVILLE: I was on "The View," which is a great TV show.
CARLSON: It is a great show. I agree with that.
CARVILLE: I really enjoyed it.
CARLSON: So how was Paris?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Well, I think they ought to, because I know she could draft a better bill than Hastert or Santorum. They ought to give her a shot at it.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: She's a Kerry voter.
CARVILLE: She couldn't do any worse as an intern.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: He's a Kerry voter.
CARVILLE: So they ought to give her a shot.
From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE.
Stay tuned to CNN for complete hurricane coverage. See you tomorrow.
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