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CNN Crossfire
Kerry vs. Cheney
Aired September 17, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE:
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Dick Cheney's old company Halliburton has profited from the mess in Iraq, at the expense of American troops and taxpayers.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What worries me about John Kerry when I look at his track record over the years, not only most recently with respect to these issues centering on Iraq, but also through 20 years of voting in the United States Senate, I don't see that kind of fundamental core capability to make decisions.
ANNOUNCER: Charges fly and the gloves come off. Has Kerry vs. Cheney become the main event of this year's presidential race?
And more campaign clashes over the ongoing violence in Iraq.
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Good afternoon, my fellow Americans. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
John Kerry turned his guns on a big target today, Halliburton. Senator Kerry has the radical notion that George W. Bush's vice president shouldn't still be getting hundreds of thousands of dollars from a corporation that overcharged taxpayers on its no-bid contract.
CARLSON: Halliburton, what in the world does that have to do with anything? And more to the point, can John Kerry win running on it? All questions we'll address on our show.
But, first, the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Well, if for nothing else, you've got to give John Kerry credit for resolve. Despite enormous pressure from Republicans, the public and even his friends, Kerry has yet to divulge what he believes about the situation in Iraq, whether the war was worth waging, what we should do now. He still won't tell us.
But Kerry does have quite a bit to say on an issue nobody outside the paranoid left cares anything about.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: And that, of course, is Halliburton. Kerry gave a speech today in which he essentially accused the Bush administration of invading Iraq to make Dick Cheney rich. And if that's not demented enough, the Kerry campaign released an ad that made the same charge.
Here it is. Dick Cheney got $2 million from Halliburton, it claims. Halliburton got contracts in Iraq. Do you get it? Have you connected the dots, seen the connection, perceived the patterns? Has the vast diabolical Dick Cheney-"American Speculator"-Carlisle Group- Halliburton-Trilateral Commission conspiracy finally become clear to you? If so, good. You're ready to vote for John Kerry. And good luck with that.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: It is simply a fact.
CARLSON: It's insane, Paul. It's insane.
BEGALA: Just answer me this. Does Dick Cheney still receive hundreds of thousands of dollars
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Who cares? It has nothing to do with why we invaded Iraq.
BEGALA: Was that a yes? That's a yes.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I don't think he does. He claims he doesn't. But if he gets millions, it has nothing to do with the war.
BEGALA: He gets more money from Halliburton than he gets from the American people.
CARLSON: What does it have to do with the war?
BEGALA: Second, Halliburton is getting no-bid contracts. It's a lousy deal.
CARLSON: It may be. What does it have to do with the war?
(BELL RINGING) BEGALA: It's an appearance of a conflict of interest for the vice president of the United States.
CARLSON: That's bad. But what does it have to do with the war? Nothing.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, it has to do with conflict of interest.
CARLSON: But it has nothing to do with the invasion of Iraq and what to do next.
BEGALA: Yes, neither does health care. There are issues besides whether George W. Bush lied to us to get into Iraq, which he did.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, a new report concludes -- get this -- that United Nations sanctions work. They effectively ended Saddam Hussein's weapons program, ensuring that he was no threat to America. Now, that's not the conclusion of some fuzzy-headed liberal. It's the conclusion of the Bush administration's 1,500 page report on Iraqi weapons of mass destruction.
You see, because of U.N. sanctions, there were no chemical weapons. Because of U.N. sanctions, there were no biological weapons. Because of U.N. sanctions, there was no nuclear program. There was no threat. And yet President Bush had contempt for U.N. sanctions, removed U.N. inspectors, and invaded. And he continues to mislead us today.
Since there were no weapons, he talks about Iraq's desire and capability. Apparently, Mr. Bush has neither the desire nor the capability to simply tell the truth to the American people.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: It's an interesting -- I think it's an interesting report.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: It's an interesting reporter. And I've drawn my own conclusions from that report, which I have shared on this show.
My question is, what are John Kerry's conclusions? Does he think we should have invaded Iraq? Does he think the war was a good idea?
BEGALA: The war was certainly poorly prosecuted.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Does he believe it was a good idea? (CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You know what? You can't answer that simple question, can you?
BEGALA: You know what? I have the desire and the capability to go out with Halle Berry, but it ain't going to happen.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Does John Kerry think -- now that we know what we know, does he think we should have invaded Iraq?
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: It's a pretty basic question. He can't answer the question. OK. OK.
BEGALA: No, George Bush is our president. He is on trial here.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Oh, OK. Oh, OK. Right. Yes. I think John Kerry is running for the same job, though.
BEGALA: And he's going to win.
CARLSON: Maybe I'm wrong.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: OK, yet another shakeup this week on the increasingly pathetic John Kerry for president campaign, which has gone through more coups, purges and radical changes of direction than most African governments.
A long and fascinating "Washington Post" piece this morning details the upheaval, so we'll spare you the details of staff reassignments. But there's at least one nugget that does bear repeating. John Kerry cannot make up his mind.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: According to "The Washington Post," Kerry is -- quote -- "prone to engaging in a vast and drawn-out process when he attempts to make decisions, or, rather, doesn't." The result, says one of his advisers, is a management disaster that can -- quote -- "create a greater sense of chaos than is probably necessary" -- end quote.
Keep in mind, that's one of his good friends talking. In other words, John Kerry, who's running for the most powerful job in the world, cannot even manage his own campaign. So good luck with war and peace, Mr. Kerry.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: If I understand the central criticism you have with Senator Kerry is that he listens. He listens to too many people.
CARLSON: No. No. He just can't make up his mind.
BEGALA: Would that President Bush listened to the generals who warned him about going to Iraq.
CARLSON: I'm all for listening.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Like General Anthony Zinni, the four-star general who said -- in fact, he described
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... of going into Iraq as -- and I quote him here -- "a brain fart."
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Bush is evil. No, I know. Bush is evil. You've got that right.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, he's not. But he should listen. He should listen. And I want a president who's smart enough and tough enough to listen to good advice.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You agree with me. OK, You agree with me. The campaign is a disaster.
BEGALA: No, it's not.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Because John Kerry can't make up his mind, as you know.
BEGALA: Kerry, he's running a fine campaign. He's going to win this election.
CARLSON: Oh, it's a disaster. Come on, Paul.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: And Bush should actually listen to some smart people for once. He should try it. Bush should just try it.
CARLSON: It's pathetic. I could beat George W. Bush and Kerry's going to lose because he can't manage the campaign.
BEGALA: Kerry is going to win.
Well, CNN has learned that the White House was, in fact, briefed on a deeply pessimistic national intelligence estimate of Iraq back in July, and yet the president continues to say that things are going well over there. Well, they're not going so well for the Americans who were kidnapped there yesterday, nor for the eight people killed in a car bombing there today. But in Bush world, things are great in Iraq.
Freedom is on the march, the former Andover cheerleader cheered yesterday. Well, the historian Francis Fukuyama, one of the intellectual godfathers of the neoconservative movement, a former Reagan and Bush administration official who currently serves on a commission appointed by George W. Bush, says this -- quote -- "I think that anybody that thinks you can hold elections in the Sunni Triangle by the end of January is really smoking something."
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, look, I disagree with Professor Fukuyama. Professor Fukuyama, the president is not drugged. He's just deceitful. And there's a big difference.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Now, Paul, I asked you a minute ago a pretty simple question. Does John Kerry think the war was justified? You couldn't answer it.
BEGALA: I don't work for John Kerry.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No, no. I'm just interested. I ask the question every day.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm going to continue to ask the question until I get an answer.
BEGALA: I think it's unjustified. I think the president lied about it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Hold on. My next question, should we leave our troops in Iraq? Should we pull them out? John Kerry hasn't answered that either. What do you think?
BEGALA: I think that he should listen to experts who tell him that he's misleading the country. The intelligence experts briefed the president
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: OK, OK. I know Bush is evil. But should we pull the troops out?
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: I think the president should tell the truth. The president should tell the truth.
CARLSON: No, I know he's evil. You're right.
BEGALA: No, he's not evil.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He should tell us the truth.
CARLSON: That's right. He's a liar, evil
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: All the same.
BEGALA: Should he tell the truth?
CARLSON: No, he's evil, actually.
BEGALA: Should he tell the truth?
CARLSON: He's evil.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Should he tell the truth?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: John Kerry thinks Halliburton is the problem in Iraq. Speaking of smoking something, when are we going to hear some real answers about what John Kerry would do there? Yes, Iraq, that's the issue.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: That and other campaign clashes just ahead.
And, later, George W. Bush is the target of an independent media campaign -- no, not that George W. Stay tuned. This is a great story. We'll tell you.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to CROSSFIRE at the George Washington University, call 202-994-8CNN or visit our Web site. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Well, candidates, of course, go head-to-head all the time. Usually, it's candidates who are vying for the same job, but not today. For some reason, Democratic presidential challenger John Kerry decided today was the day to talk about Halliburton, where Dick Cheney used to work. What does Halliburton have to do with anything? He hasn't explained that. And, weirdly, there are far more compelling campaign issues out there, for instance, a new Gallup poll showing a Bush/Cheney surge, the debut of two new campaign ads, Kerry's elusive running mate John Edwards -- whatever happened to him? -- and, of course, the small matter of our presence in Iraq.
Joining us today in the CROSSFIRE, Vic Kamber, Democratic strategist, and former Reagan political director Frank Donatelli.
Gentlemen, good to see you again.
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Thank you for joining us.
Frank, let's just take a listen to part of Senator Kerry's speech today and ask you to comment on it.
Here's John Kerry.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KERRY: While Halliburton has been engaging in massive overcharging and wasteful practices under this no-bid contract, Dick Cheney has continued to receive compensation from his former company.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Frank, can you tell me if it's appropriate for the sitting vice president of the United States to be receiving hundreds of thousands of dollars a year from a company that's doing business with the government?
FRANK DONATELLI, FORMER REAGAN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: I can tell you, it is totally appropriate.
BEGALA: Really?
DONATELLI: Because the compensation is for past activity and nothing to do with the future.
BEGALA: Right.
DONATELLI: This is very, very common. As a matter of fact, I believe Senator John Edwards, as we're bringing him up again, probably has the same arrangement with his law firm when he left. As long as the
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: They're not doing business with the government, though. First off, I don't know if he is. But this is a different deal. This is a company that gets a no-bid contract. Certainly you understand
(CROSSTALK)
DONATELLI: That Cheney had nothing to do with. There's no evidence to suggest he had anything to do with that.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I didn't say that he did. It's interesting you should raise that, though. Feeling a little defensive about it.
DONATELLI: Because that was your next question.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: No. I just want you to help me understand. You were President -- I know this. Let me make sure our audience knows. You were President Reagan's political director.
DONATELLI: Yes.
BEGALA: Political genius, if I say.
DONATELLI: Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Don't you think it's a political mistake, at least a political mistake, for a guy to be hauling down more money from Halliburton than he is from the taxpayers of the United States?
DONATELLI: Again, this is funded by an insurance policy. If Halliburton went out of business tomorrow...
VIC KAMBER, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Which it should.
(LAUGHTER)
DONATELLI: He would still get this compensation.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: Oh, they're not going out of business, man. They've got billions of dollars in no-bid contracts. They're going to be fine.
CARLSON: Vic, you've been in Washington for a long time and you've been around politics most of your life. You're a political strategist.
You know that when you run a campaign, you want to run on issues that people actually care about. And let me show you a list of the issues people care about, according to the latest "TIME" magazine poll.
No. 1, of course, is the war on terror, 26 percent, economy No. 2, Iraq, three, moral values, four, health care, five. No surprise there. You'll notice that Halliburton's wasteful practices and no-bid contracts don't actually rate on that list.
(LAUGHTER)
KAMBER: Yes, they do.
CARLSON: Right. Oh, they do?
KAMBER: Yes, they do. Maybe you're not reading the same list that you just showed me. No. 4 was moral values and issues.
CARLSON: Oh.
KAMBER: You know, we're in -- Tucker, let's not kid ourselves. Ninety percent of the American public has made up their minds, 45 on each side.
CARLSON: Right.
KAMBER: We're dealing with 10 percent of the electorate that at this point is still questioning what they want.
So every wedge issue, every little issue, whether it be -- and that's why the Republicans in the past have been so successful, taking things like choice or like guns or like prayer in school, and making them into national issues, while we have all these other issues
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Actually, that's a valid point. Both campaigns do that.
Here's what bothers me specifically about the Halliburton story, however, is the implication -- and you can hear it when you listen to John Kerry -- you can see it when you watch their ads -- that we invaded Iraq in part to make Dick Cheney rich, to help Halliburton. And that not only is a lie. It's a destructive lie. And it's a horrible thing to say.
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
KAMBER: Then, let's agree with one thing. Let's agree with one thing, that, No. 1, a company that's stealing money from the American government shouldn't be doing business with the American government. Put Dick Cheney aside.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... stealing money. Even if they are, what does that have to deal with Iraq? I don't get it.
KAMBER: What are you talking about, $186 million we know of overcharges by Halliburton with Iraqi contracts. Three federal investigations about Halliburton right now. Putting all of Dick Cheney aside, this company should not be doing business with the federal government, and not in Iraq.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: OK.
BEGALA: Frank, not only do I have a problem with Halliburton doing business with the federal government today. I have a much bigger problem with Halliburton doing business with the government of Iraq when Saddam Hussein was its dictator and Dick Cheney was the chairman and CEO of Halliburton.
Here's what the "American Prospect" magazine reports: "Confidential U.N. records show that from the first half of 1997 to the summer of 2000, Halliburton held stakes in two firms that sold more than $73 million in oil production equipment and spare parts to Iraq while Cheney was in charge. Halliburton acquired its interests in both firms while Cheney was at the helm and continued doing business through them until just months before Cheney was named George W. Bush's running mate."
Do you think it's wrong to trade with the enemy like that?
DONATELLI: I think if there was any legitimacy to these charges, we'd have heard about it from the Kerry campaign already. Stealing $180 million. Where are we getting this?
BEGALA: This was reported by "The Washington Post" four years ago based on U.N. records.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: "The American Prospect" magazine picks it up again in its current issues and goes through the records. Plainly, when Dick Cheney was the CEO of Halliburton, Halliburton, through its subsidiaries, was doing business in Iraq. Don't you think that's wrong?
(CROSSTALK)
DONATELLI: And if there was a legal violation, there should have been prosecution, and there was not.
BEGALA: It was legal, but not ethical.
(CROSSTALK)
DONATELLI: If you want to attack Halliburton, have somebody from Halliburton on here. I'm simply here to say that the vice president has done nothing wrong. These are baseless charges.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm sorry. I just want to get Vic in, Vic in here.
Vic, I was going to ask you another question, but I can't help trying to dissect the logic, such as it is, as we've been hearing the last couple minutes. Is the charge that Dick Cheney was too mean to Saddam by pushing the invasion of Iraq or that he was too nice to Saddam by doing business with him? Do you want to pick an allegation?
KAMBER: I think the charge is that Halliburton and the Republican Party and this group in power are more interested in making profits, working with corporate America, at the expense of our troops, our country, and everything else.
CARLSON: OK. Right.
KAMBER: Halliburton should not be in
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: OK. All right. I want to get off Halliburton because I find myself getting woozy with boredom.
Quickly, from "The New York Times" today, here's a Kerry adviser talking about the absence of John Edwards, who has disappeared. No one knows what happened to him, undisclosed location, whatever. Here's the theory of a Kerry adviser -- quote -- "Vice presidential candidates serve as attack dogs. Our vice presidential candidate was picked for his sunny optimism" -- and his hair. "He self-consciously eschewed negativity during his own campaign. Consequently, he doesn't make for the most effective attack dog."
Could it be that John Edwards...
KAMBER: Did you have a quote who said that?
CARLSON: No, it's an honest -- but it's true.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: No, no, I'm serious, though. Could it be -- he's not being an attack dog. Could it be that John Edwards, recognizing the campaign is pathetic and doomed, has decided not to sully himself by attacking George W. Bush? KAMBER: Well, I guess I've been out there. I've seen John Edwards a lot. I can't speak to why the media isn't covering every speech he makes and every appearance he makes. And that is the media, because he's out there every day. He's going...
CARLSON: He's off today, I think, actually. In the middle of a campaign, he was off.
KAMBER: Oh, well, God forbid. The campaign is going to stop that he took a day off.
CARLSON: That's the point. He's useless, isn't he?
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
KAMBER: He is dealing with the base of the party more than any other candidate has dealt with the base of the party. And it's been terrific. I think he's a wonderful candidate and will be a wonderful vice president.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Frank, let me ask you, coming back to Iraq now, this week, we learned that, back in July, the White House was briefed on a national intelligence estimate, very, very pessimistic about our prospects in Iraq and how terribly things are going there.
Since then, the president continues his cheerleader routine, saying, rah, rah, we're making progress. Well, let me read you a quote from someone who has looked at the same situation in Iraq. And here is what he says: "We've got to be honest with ourselves. The worst thing we can do is hold ourselves hostage to some grand illusion that we're winning. Right now, we're not winning. Things are getting worse."
Who do you suppose said that? Do you think maybe it was John Kerry, Howard Dean, Michael Moore?
DONATELLI: I assume you'll tell me.
BEGALA: I will tell you, Chuck Hagel, the conservative Republican senator from Nebraska, the No. 2 senator on the Senate Armed Services Committee. Do you think that Chuck Hagel is right that we're losing or that George Bush is right that things are just great over there?
DONATELLI: I think that we all as Americans, whether you were for or against the war, have a stake in being successful in Iraq.
BEGALA: Absolutely.
DONATELLI: And there are things to -- that we should -- that are positive. And there are things that we still have to work on. But the last thing we ought to do is to be celebrating perceived American failures in Iraq. There are good things to report.
BEGALA: Absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
DONATELLI: There are good things to report.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: I guess I just -- I think the last thing we should be doing is covering them up.
DONATELLI: We're not covering them up.
BEGALA: My definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.
DONATELLI: That's what we're debating this campaign.
BEGALA: We need a new strategy in Iraq. Senator Hagel clearly understands that. And the president is misleading us.
DONATELLI: Well, what's Kerry's strategy?
BEGALA: Things are going in the wrong...
DONATELLI: To bring the French Foreign Legion in?
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: No, first to fire George Bush. That's the first thing to do.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: All right, well, we're going to take a quick commercial break. I think the French Foreign Legion idea is pretty good, actually.
BEGALA: Better than the
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You ought to float that to the Kerry campaign.
Next, in "Rapid Fire," who do you think is more honest and trustworthy, John Kerry or George W. Bush? We have the polls to prove who you think. We'll reveal them to you.
And next, who got hardest hit by Ivan and when will the next storm arrive? We'll have an update after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Miles O'Brien at the CNN Center in Atlanta.
Coming up at 5:00 p.m., the remnants of Hurricane Ivan brought rain and floods to the Appalachians today. Ivan's U.S. death toll now is 19. A new car bomb attack in Iraq has killed at least eight Iraqis, and U.S.-led forces have carried out another airstrike in Fallujah. Michael Jackson appeared in court today and heard pretrial testimony from the mother of the child Jackson allegedly molested.
Those stories and much more later on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to "JUDY WOODRUFF'S INSIDE POLITICS."
BEGALA: It's actually called CROSSFIRE. I'll get you back for that one.
Time now for "Rapid Fire" on CROSSFIRE, where we fire off questions even faster than Vice President Cheney can endorse those checks from Halliburton.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Our guests today, Frank Donatelli, the former political director for President Ronald Reagan, and Democratic strategist Vic Kamber.
CARLSON: Now, Vic, despite the efforts of Paul and others to make George Bush into this diabolical liar, according to a new poll, by a wide margin, people think Bush tells the truth more than Kerry. Are people just stupid? Or why do they think that?
KAMBER: I don't think they've yet...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
KAMBER: I don't think being truthful or lack of truth deals with what a poll says. The fact is, we know the president lies.
CARLSON: The polls asks...
KAMBER: We know the president lies.
CARLSON: You ought to tell the American people that.
KAMBER: Well, we will. And we're going to continue for the next 45 days.
CARLSON: OK. Good luck.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Frank Donatelli, Karl Rove, the president's chief political adviser, severed all of his ties with his small little political consulting firm before he joined on George Bush's team. Don't you think Dick Cheney should have ethical standards as high as Karl Rove?
DONATELLI: I think he does. He severed all his ties with Halliburton.
BEGALA: He's getting a couple hundred grand a year, Frank.
DONATELLI: Any compensation is related solely to past activity.
BEGALA: That's not a tie, though? A couple hundred grand a year is not a tie?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I want to be tied to you, man.
(LAUGHTER)
DONATELLI: It's related solely related to past activity. There's no crime here, Paul. You keep looking for one.
BEGALA: The crime is that it's not illegal
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: OK. I'm sorry. We're going to have to do a whole Halliburton show next week.
Vic, Senator John McCain of Arizona says that Democratic lawyers ought to stop trying to prevent Ralph Nader from getting on the ballot in Arizona. People have a right to vote for him, if they want. Is John McCain a right-wing hack?
KAMBER: It depends on what vote you're talking about.
(CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: No, I think John McCain is a very decent, honorable person.
CARLSON: Then why don't you listen to him, then? Don't you think you should/
KAMBER: Because I'm not in Arizona. And I'm not trying to stop Nader.
CARLSON: No, this is in Florida, getting on the Florida ballot.
KAMBER: I understand. I understand.
CARLSON: Don't people have a right to vote for Ralph Nader, if they want?
KAMBER: Sure they do, absolutely.
CARLSON: Oh, OK.
KAMBER: As they would for Pat Buchanan or anybody else, if they want.
The fact is, they're not going to win. I think, if Nader wants to get on the ballot, he's got to get on the ballot legally, whatever that process is in those states.
BEGALA: Frank, General James Helmly, who is the head of the Reserves, says we're running out of Reservists. General James Conway, who, until a few weeks ago, was running our war in the western part of Iraq, he says we have botched the deal in Fallujah. Why doesn't the president level with us the same way his generals have?
DONATELLI: The president has leveled with us. The president has said we have problems that we face. The president also says he is optimistic about circumstances.
(CROSSTALK)
DONATELLI: Because we have to be successful in Iraq. We don't know what Kerry thinks about Iraq.
(BELL RINGING)
DONATELLI: But the president has taken responsibility for that vote, and he's going to move us forward. We have to be successful there.
KAMBER: That is just wrong.
BEGALA: I'm sorry. I'm sorry to cut you off. That was the bell. Frank Donatelli has to get the last word, political director from the Reagan White House.
Vic Kamber, my friend from the Democratic Party.
Thank you both very much for a fun debate.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, George W.'s military service is under attack. It turns out that's not such a revolutionary idea after all.
Stay tuned. We'll fill you in.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, yet another group has emerged with an axe to grind over George W.'s military service, only not the George W. you're probably thinking about.
Rowboat Veterans For Truth thinks that, after 228 years, it's high time to set the record straight about George Washington and his famous crossing of the Delaware River. (LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: They say the father of our country is no war hero. They say he never even lifted an ore, complained about being seasick and he whined when he biffed his shin an iceberg.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: As for smoking his hemp weed pipe while others rode, well, we won't even go into that. Bottom line, say crew members, it was nothing more than a photo -- I suppose you would say portrait-op.
You can check out their version of events at Rowboatvets.com, Rowboat Veterans For Truth.
CARLSON: You know, we only have about 15 seconds, but I know you can do this, Paul. I know you're equal to the task. I want you to connect the dots between George Washington crossing the Delaware and Halliburton.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Oh, Halliburton
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Can you do it? Can you do it?
BEGALA: If Halliburton would have built the rowboat, they would have charged us $1 billion. Absolutely.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: That is perfect. That is perfect. You can do it.
BEGALA: Thank you very much.
CARLSON: You can do it, Paul. You're going to win this election on Halliburton. Good for you! Halliburton.
BEGALA: I have to rise to the challenge.
That's it. From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again Monday for yet more CROSSFIRE. Have a great weekend. See you.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired September 17, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE:
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Dick Cheney's old company Halliburton has profited from the mess in Iraq, at the expense of American troops and taxpayers.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What worries me about John Kerry when I look at his track record over the years, not only most recently with respect to these issues centering on Iraq, but also through 20 years of voting in the United States Senate, I don't see that kind of fundamental core capability to make decisions.
ANNOUNCER: Charges fly and the gloves come off. Has Kerry vs. Cheney become the main event of this year's presidential race?
And more campaign clashes over the ongoing violence in Iraq.
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Good afternoon, my fellow Americans. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
John Kerry turned his guns on a big target today, Halliburton. Senator Kerry has the radical notion that George W. Bush's vice president shouldn't still be getting hundreds of thousands of dollars from a corporation that overcharged taxpayers on its no-bid contract.
CARLSON: Halliburton, what in the world does that have to do with anything? And more to the point, can John Kerry win running on it? All questions we'll address on our show.
But, first, the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Well, if for nothing else, you've got to give John Kerry credit for resolve. Despite enormous pressure from Republicans, the public and even his friends, Kerry has yet to divulge what he believes about the situation in Iraq, whether the war was worth waging, what we should do now. He still won't tell us.
But Kerry does have quite a bit to say on an issue nobody outside the paranoid left cares anything about.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: And that, of course, is Halliburton. Kerry gave a speech today in which he essentially accused the Bush administration of invading Iraq to make Dick Cheney rich. And if that's not demented enough, the Kerry campaign released an ad that made the same charge.
Here it is. Dick Cheney got $2 million from Halliburton, it claims. Halliburton got contracts in Iraq. Do you get it? Have you connected the dots, seen the connection, perceived the patterns? Has the vast diabolical Dick Cheney-"American Speculator"-Carlisle Group- Halliburton-Trilateral Commission conspiracy finally become clear to you? If so, good. You're ready to vote for John Kerry. And good luck with that.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: It is simply a fact.
CARLSON: It's insane, Paul. It's insane.
BEGALA: Just answer me this. Does Dick Cheney still receive hundreds of thousands of dollars
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Who cares? It has nothing to do with why we invaded Iraq.
BEGALA: Was that a yes? That's a yes.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I don't think he does. He claims he doesn't. But if he gets millions, it has nothing to do with the war.
BEGALA: He gets more money from Halliburton than he gets from the American people.
CARLSON: What does it have to do with the war?
BEGALA: Second, Halliburton is getting no-bid contracts. It's a lousy deal.
CARLSON: It may be. What does it have to do with the war?
(BELL RINGING) BEGALA: It's an appearance of a conflict of interest for the vice president of the United States.
CARLSON: That's bad. But what does it have to do with the war? Nothing.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, it has to do with conflict of interest.
CARLSON: But it has nothing to do with the invasion of Iraq and what to do next.
BEGALA: Yes, neither does health care. There are issues besides whether George W. Bush lied to us to get into Iraq, which he did.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, a new report concludes -- get this -- that United Nations sanctions work. They effectively ended Saddam Hussein's weapons program, ensuring that he was no threat to America. Now, that's not the conclusion of some fuzzy-headed liberal. It's the conclusion of the Bush administration's 1,500 page report on Iraqi weapons of mass destruction.
You see, because of U.N. sanctions, there were no chemical weapons. Because of U.N. sanctions, there were no biological weapons. Because of U.N. sanctions, there was no nuclear program. There was no threat. And yet President Bush had contempt for U.N. sanctions, removed U.N. inspectors, and invaded. And he continues to mislead us today.
Since there were no weapons, he talks about Iraq's desire and capability. Apparently, Mr. Bush has neither the desire nor the capability to simply tell the truth to the American people.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: It's an interesting -- I think it's an interesting report.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: It's an interesting reporter. And I've drawn my own conclusions from that report, which I have shared on this show.
My question is, what are John Kerry's conclusions? Does he think we should have invaded Iraq? Does he think the war was a good idea?
BEGALA: The war was certainly poorly prosecuted.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Does he believe it was a good idea? (CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You know what? You can't answer that simple question, can you?
BEGALA: You know what? I have the desire and the capability to go out with Halle Berry, but it ain't going to happen.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Does John Kerry think -- now that we know what we know, does he think we should have invaded Iraq?
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: It's a pretty basic question. He can't answer the question. OK. OK.
BEGALA: No, George Bush is our president. He is on trial here.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Oh, OK. Oh, OK. Right. Yes. I think John Kerry is running for the same job, though.
BEGALA: And he's going to win.
CARLSON: Maybe I'm wrong.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: OK, yet another shakeup this week on the increasingly pathetic John Kerry for president campaign, which has gone through more coups, purges and radical changes of direction than most African governments.
A long and fascinating "Washington Post" piece this morning details the upheaval, so we'll spare you the details of staff reassignments. But there's at least one nugget that does bear repeating. John Kerry cannot make up his mind.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: According to "The Washington Post," Kerry is -- quote -- "prone to engaging in a vast and drawn-out process when he attempts to make decisions, or, rather, doesn't." The result, says one of his advisers, is a management disaster that can -- quote -- "create a greater sense of chaos than is probably necessary" -- end quote.
Keep in mind, that's one of his good friends talking. In other words, John Kerry, who's running for the most powerful job in the world, cannot even manage his own campaign. So good luck with war and peace, Mr. Kerry.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: If I understand the central criticism you have with Senator Kerry is that he listens. He listens to too many people.
CARLSON: No. No. He just can't make up his mind.
BEGALA: Would that President Bush listened to the generals who warned him about going to Iraq.
CARLSON: I'm all for listening.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Like General Anthony Zinni, the four-star general who said -- in fact, he described
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... of going into Iraq as -- and I quote him here -- "a brain fart."
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Bush is evil. No, I know. Bush is evil. You've got that right.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, he's not. But he should listen. He should listen. And I want a president who's smart enough and tough enough to listen to good advice.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You agree with me. OK, You agree with me. The campaign is a disaster.
BEGALA: No, it's not.
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: Because John Kerry can't make up his mind, as you know.
BEGALA: Kerry, he's running a fine campaign. He's going to win this election.
CARLSON: Oh, it's a disaster. Come on, Paul.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: And Bush should actually listen to some smart people for once. He should try it. Bush should just try it.
CARLSON: It's pathetic. I could beat George W. Bush and Kerry's going to lose because he can't manage the campaign.
BEGALA: Kerry is going to win.
Well, CNN has learned that the White House was, in fact, briefed on a deeply pessimistic national intelligence estimate of Iraq back in July, and yet the president continues to say that things are going well over there. Well, they're not going so well for the Americans who were kidnapped there yesterday, nor for the eight people killed in a car bombing there today. But in Bush world, things are great in Iraq.
Freedom is on the march, the former Andover cheerleader cheered yesterday. Well, the historian Francis Fukuyama, one of the intellectual godfathers of the neoconservative movement, a former Reagan and Bush administration official who currently serves on a commission appointed by George W. Bush, says this -- quote -- "I think that anybody that thinks you can hold elections in the Sunni Triangle by the end of January is really smoking something."
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, look, I disagree with Professor Fukuyama. Professor Fukuyama, the president is not drugged. He's just deceitful. And there's a big difference.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Now, Paul, I asked you a minute ago a pretty simple question. Does John Kerry think the war was justified? You couldn't answer it.
BEGALA: I don't work for John Kerry.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No, no. I'm just interested. I ask the question every day.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm going to continue to ask the question until I get an answer.
BEGALA: I think it's unjustified. I think the president lied about it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Hold on. My next question, should we leave our troops in Iraq? Should we pull them out? John Kerry hasn't answered that either. What do you think?
BEGALA: I think that he should listen to experts who tell him that he's misleading the country. The intelligence experts briefed the president
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
CARLSON: OK, OK. I know Bush is evil. But should we pull the troops out?
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: I think the president should tell the truth. The president should tell the truth.
CARLSON: No, I know he's evil. You're right.
BEGALA: No, he's not evil.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He should tell us the truth.
CARLSON: That's right. He's a liar, evil
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: All the same.
BEGALA: Should he tell the truth?
CARLSON: No, he's evil, actually.
BEGALA: Should he tell the truth?
CARLSON: He's evil.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Should he tell the truth?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: John Kerry thinks Halliburton is the problem in Iraq. Speaking of smoking something, when are we going to hear some real answers about what John Kerry would do there? Yes, Iraq, that's the issue.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: That and other campaign clashes just ahead.
And, later, George W. Bush is the target of an independent media campaign -- no, not that George W. Stay tuned. This is a great story. We'll tell you.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to CROSSFIRE at the George Washington University, call 202-994-8CNN or visit our Web site. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Well, candidates, of course, go head-to-head all the time. Usually, it's candidates who are vying for the same job, but not today. For some reason, Democratic presidential challenger John Kerry decided today was the day to talk about Halliburton, where Dick Cheney used to work. What does Halliburton have to do with anything? He hasn't explained that. And, weirdly, there are far more compelling campaign issues out there, for instance, a new Gallup poll showing a Bush/Cheney surge, the debut of two new campaign ads, Kerry's elusive running mate John Edwards -- whatever happened to him? -- and, of course, the small matter of our presence in Iraq.
Joining us today in the CROSSFIRE, Vic Kamber, Democratic strategist, and former Reagan political director Frank Donatelli.
Gentlemen, good to see you again.
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Thank you for joining us.
Frank, let's just take a listen to part of Senator Kerry's speech today and ask you to comment on it.
Here's John Kerry.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KERRY: While Halliburton has been engaging in massive overcharging and wasteful practices under this no-bid contract, Dick Cheney has continued to receive compensation from his former company.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Frank, can you tell me if it's appropriate for the sitting vice president of the United States to be receiving hundreds of thousands of dollars a year from a company that's doing business with the government?
FRANK DONATELLI, FORMER REAGAN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: I can tell you, it is totally appropriate.
BEGALA: Really?
DONATELLI: Because the compensation is for past activity and nothing to do with the future.
BEGALA: Right.
DONATELLI: This is very, very common. As a matter of fact, I believe Senator John Edwards, as we're bringing him up again, probably has the same arrangement with his law firm when he left. As long as the
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: They're not doing business with the government, though. First off, I don't know if he is. But this is a different deal. This is a company that gets a no-bid contract. Certainly you understand
(CROSSTALK)
DONATELLI: That Cheney had nothing to do with. There's no evidence to suggest he had anything to do with that.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I didn't say that he did. It's interesting you should raise that, though. Feeling a little defensive about it.
DONATELLI: Because that was your next question.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: No. I just want you to help me understand. You were President -- I know this. Let me make sure our audience knows. You were President Reagan's political director.
DONATELLI: Yes.
BEGALA: Political genius, if I say.
DONATELLI: Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Don't you think it's a political mistake, at least a political mistake, for a guy to be hauling down more money from Halliburton than he is from the taxpayers of the United States?
DONATELLI: Again, this is funded by an insurance policy. If Halliburton went out of business tomorrow...
VIC KAMBER, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Which it should.
(LAUGHTER)
DONATELLI: He would still get this compensation.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: Oh, they're not going out of business, man. They've got billions of dollars in no-bid contracts. They're going to be fine.
CARLSON: Vic, you've been in Washington for a long time and you've been around politics most of your life. You're a political strategist.
You know that when you run a campaign, you want to run on issues that people actually care about. And let me show you a list of the issues people care about, according to the latest "TIME" magazine poll.
No. 1, of course, is the war on terror, 26 percent, economy No. 2, Iraq, three, moral values, four, health care, five. No surprise there. You'll notice that Halliburton's wasteful practices and no-bid contracts don't actually rate on that list.
(LAUGHTER)
KAMBER: Yes, they do.
CARLSON: Right. Oh, they do?
KAMBER: Yes, they do. Maybe you're not reading the same list that you just showed me. No. 4 was moral values and issues.
CARLSON: Oh.
KAMBER: You know, we're in -- Tucker, let's not kid ourselves. Ninety percent of the American public has made up their minds, 45 on each side.
CARLSON: Right.
KAMBER: We're dealing with 10 percent of the electorate that at this point is still questioning what they want.
So every wedge issue, every little issue, whether it be -- and that's why the Republicans in the past have been so successful, taking things like choice or like guns or like prayer in school, and making them into national issues, while we have all these other issues
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Actually, that's a valid point. Both campaigns do that.
Here's what bothers me specifically about the Halliburton story, however, is the implication -- and you can hear it when you listen to John Kerry -- you can see it when you watch their ads -- that we invaded Iraq in part to make Dick Cheney rich, to help Halliburton. And that not only is a lie. It's a destructive lie. And it's a horrible thing to say.
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
KAMBER: Then, let's agree with one thing. Let's agree with one thing, that, No. 1, a company that's stealing money from the American government shouldn't be doing business with the American government. Put Dick Cheney aside.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... stealing money. Even if they are, what does that have to deal with Iraq? I don't get it.
KAMBER: What are you talking about, $186 million we know of overcharges by Halliburton with Iraqi contracts. Three federal investigations about Halliburton right now. Putting all of Dick Cheney aside, this company should not be doing business with the federal government, and not in Iraq.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: OK.
BEGALA: Frank, not only do I have a problem with Halliburton doing business with the federal government today. I have a much bigger problem with Halliburton doing business with the government of Iraq when Saddam Hussein was its dictator and Dick Cheney was the chairman and CEO of Halliburton.
Here's what the "American Prospect" magazine reports: "Confidential U.N. records show that from the first half of 1997 to the summer of 2000, Halliburton held stakes in two firms that sold more than $73 million in oil production equipment and spare parts to Iraq while Cheney was in charge. Halliburton acquired its interests in both firms while Cheney was at the helm and continued doing business through them until just months before Cheney was named George W. Bush's running mate."
Do you think it's wrong to trade with the enemy like that?
DONATELLI: I think if there was any legitimacy to these charges, we'd have heard about it from the Kerry campaign already. Stealing $180 million. Where are we getting this?
BEGALA: This was reported by "The Washington Post" four years ago based on U.N. records.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: "The American Prospect" magazine picks it up again in its current issues and goes through the records. Plainly, when Dick Cheney was the CEO of Halliburton, Halliburton, through its subsidiaries, was doing business in Iraq. Don't you think that's wrong?
(CROSSTALK)
DONATELLI: And if there was a legal violation, there should have been prosecution, and there was not.
BEGALA: It was legal, but not ethical.
(CROSSTALK)
DONATELLI: If you want to attack Halliburton, have somebody from Halliburton on here. I'm simply here to say that the vice president has done nothing wrong. These are baseless charges.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm sorry. I just want to get Vic in, Vic in here.
Vic, I was going to ask you another question, but I can't help trying to dissect the logic, such as it is, as we've been hearing the last couple minutes. Is the charge that Dick Cheney was too mean to Saddam by pushing the invasion of Iraq or that he was too nice to Saddam by doing business with him? Do you want to pick an allegation?
KAMBER: I think the charge is that Halliburton and the Republican Party and this group in power are more interested in making profits, working with corporate America, at the expense of our troops, our country, and everything else.
CARLSON: OK. Right.
KAMBER: Halliburton should not be in
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: OK. All right. I want to get off Halliburton because I find myself getting woozy with boredom.
Quickly, from "The New York Times" today, here's a Kerry adviser talking about the absence of John Edwards, who has disappeared. No one knows what happened to him, undisclosed location, whatever. Here's the theory of a Kerry adviser -- quote -- "Vice presidential candidates serve as attack dogs. Our vice presidential candidate was picked for his sunny optimism" -- and his hair. "He self-consciously eschewed negativity during his own campaign. Consequently, he doesn't make for the most effective attack dog."
Could it be that John Edwards...
KAMBER: Did you have a quote who said that?
CARLSON: No, it's an honest -- but it's true.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: No, no, I'm serious, though. Could it be -- he's not being an attack dog. Could it be that John Edwards, recognizing the campaign is pathetic and doomed, has decided not to sully himself by attacking George W. Bush? KAMBER: Well, I guess I've been out there. I've seen John Edwards a lot. I can't speak to why the media isn't covering every speech he makes and every appearance he makes. And that is the media, because he's out there every day. He's going...
CARLSON: He's off today, I think, actually. In the middle of a campaign, he was off.
KAMBER: Oh, well, God forbid. The campaign is going to stop that he took a day off.
CARLSON: That's the point. He's useless, isn't he?
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
KAMBER: He is dealing with the base of the party more than any other candidate has dealt with the base of the party. And it's been terrific. I think he's a wonderful candidate and will be a wonderful vice president.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Frank, let me ask you, coming back to Iraq now, this week, we learned that, back in July, the White House was briefed on a national intelligence estimate, very, very pessimistic about our prospects in Iraq and how terribly things are going there.
Since then, the president continues his cheerleader routine, saying, rah, rah, we're making progress. Well, let me read you a quote from someone who has looked at the same situation in Iraq. And here is what he says: "We've got to be honest with ourselves. The worst thing we can do is hold ourselves hostage to some grand illusion that we're winning. Right now, we're not winning. Things are getting worse."
Who do you suppose said that? Do you think maybe it was John Kerry, Howard Dean, Michael Moore?
DONATELLI: I assume you'll tell me.
BEGALA: I will tell you, Chuck Hagel, the conservative Republican senator from Nebraska, the No. 2 senator on the Senate Armed Services Committee. Do you think that Chuck Hagel is right that we're losing or that George Bush is right that things are just great over there?
DONATELLI: I think that we all as Americans, whether you were for or against the war, have a stake in being successful in Iraq.
BEGALA: Absolutely.
DONATELLI: And there are things to -- that we should -- that are positive. And there are things that we still have to work on. But the last thing we ought to do is to be celebrating perceived American failures in Iraq. There are good things to report.
BEGALA: Absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
DONATELLI: There are good things to report.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: I guess I just -- I think the last thing we should be doing is covering them up.
DONATELLI: We're not covering them up.
BEGALA: My definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.
DONATELLI: That's what we're debating this campaign.
BEGALA: We need a new strategy in Iraq. Senator Hagel clearly understands that. And the president is misleading us.
DONATELLI: Well, what's Kerry's strategy?
BEGALA: Things are going in the wrong...
DONATELLI: To bring the French Foreign Legion in?
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: No, first to fire George Bush. That's the first thing to do.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: All right, well, we're going to take a quick commercial break. I think the French Foreign Legion idea is pretty good, actually.
BEGALA: Better than the
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You ought to float that to the Kerry campaign.
Next, in "Rapid Fire," who do you think is more honest and trustworthy, John Kerry or George W. Bush? We have the polls to prove who you think. We'll reveal them to you.
And next, who got hardest hit by Ivan and when will the next storm arrive? We'll have an update after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Miles O'Brien at the CNN Center in Atlanta.
Coming up at 5:00 p.m., the remnants of Hurricane Ivan brought rain and floods to the Appalachians today. Ivan's U.S. death toll now is 19. A new car bomb attack in Iraq has killed at least eight Iraqis, and U.S.-led forces have carried out another airstrike in Fallujah. Michael Jackson appeared in court today and heard pretrial testimony from the mother of the child Jackson allegedly molested.
Those stories and much more later on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to "JUDY WOODRUFF'S INSIDE POLITICS."
BEGALA: It's actually called CROSSFIRE. I'll get you back for that one.
Time now for "Rapid Fire" on CROSSFIRE, where we fire off questions even faster than Vice President Cheney can endorse those checks from Halliburton.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Our guests today, Frank Donatelli, the former political director for President Ronald Reagan, and Democratic strategist Vic Kamber.
CARLSON: Now, Vic, despite the efforts of Paul and others to make George Bush into this diabolical liar, according to a new poll, by a wide margin, people think Bush tells the truth more than Kerry. Are people just stupid? Or why do they think that?
KAMBER: I don't think they've yet...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
KAMBER: I don't think being truthful or lack of truth deals with what a poll says. The fact is, we know the president lies.
CARLSON: The polls asks...
KAMBER: We know the president lies.
CARLSON: You ought to tell the American people that.
KAMBER: Well, we will. And we're going to continue for the next 45 days.
CARLSON: OK. Good luck.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Frank Donatelli, Karl Rove, the president's chief political adviser, severed all of his ties with his small little political consulting firm before he joined on George Bush's team. Don't you think Dick Cheney should have ethical standards as high as Karl Rove?
DONATELLI: I think he does. He severed all his ties with Halliburton.
BEGALA: He's getting a couple hundred grand a year, Frank.
DONATELLI: Any compensation is related solely to past activity.
BEGALA: That's not a tie, though? A couple hundred grand a year is not a tie?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I want to be tied to you, man.
(LAUGHTER)
DONATELLI: It's related solely related to past activity. There's no crime here, Paul. You keep looking for one.
BEGALA: The crime is that it's not illegal
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: OK. I'm sorry. We're going to have to do a whole Halliburton show next week.
Vic, Senator John McCain of Arizona says that Democratic lawyers ought to stop trying to prevent Ralph Nader from getting on the ballot in Arizona. People have a right to vote for him, if they want. Is John McCain a right-wing hack?
KAMBER: It depends on what vote you're talking about.
(CROSSTALK)
KAMBER: No, I think John McCain is a very decent, honorable person.
CARLSON: Then why don't you listen to him, then? Don't you think you should/
KAMBER: Because I'm not in Arizona. And I'm not trying to stop Nader.
CARLSON: No, this is in Florida, getting on the Florida ballot.
KAMBER: I understand. I understand.
CARLSON: Don't people have a right to vote for Ralph Nader, if they want?
KAMBER: Sure they do, absolutely.
CARLSON: Oh, OK.
KAMBER: As they would for Pat Buchanan or anybody else, if they want.
The fact is, they're not going to win. I think, if Nader wants to get on the ballot, he's got to get on the ballot legally, whatever that process is in those states.
BEGALA: Frank, General James Helmly, who is the head of the Reserves, says we're running out of Reservists. General James Conway, who, until a few weeks ago, was running our war in the western part of Iraq, he says we have botched the deal in Fallujah. Why doesn't the president level with us the same way his generals have?
DONATELLI: The president has leveled with us. The president has said we have problems that we face. The president also says he is optimistic about circumstances.
(CROSSTALK)
DONATELLI: Because we have to be successful in Iraq. We don't know what Kerry thinks about Iraq.
(BELL RINGING)
DONATELLI: But the president has taken responsibility for that vote, and he's going to move us forward. We have to be successful there.
KAMBER: That is just wrong.
BEGALA: I'm sorry. I'm sorry to cut you off. That was the bell. Frank Donatelli has to get the last word, political director from the Reagan White House.
Vic Kamber, my friend from the Democratic Party.
Thank you both very much for a fun debate.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, George W.'s military service is under attack. It turns out that's not such a revolutionary idea after all.
Stay tuned. We'll fill you in.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, yet another group has emerged with an axe to grind over George W.'s military service, only not the George W. you're probably thinking about.
Rowboat Veterans For Truth thinks that, after 228 years, it's high time to set the record straight about George Washington and his famous crossing of the Delaware River. (LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: They say the father of our country is no war hero. They say he never even lifted an ore, complained about being seasick and he whined when he biffed his shin an iceberg.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: As for smoking his hemp weed pipe while others rode, well, we won't even go into that. Bottom line, say crew members, it was nothing more than a photo -- I suppose you would say portrait-op.
You can check out their version of events at Rowboatvets.com, Rowboat Veterans For Truth.
CARLSON: You know, we only have about 15 seconds, but I know you can do this, Paul. I know you're equal to the task. I want you to connect the dots between George Washington crossing the Delaware and Halliburton.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Oh, Halliburton
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Can you do it? Can you do it?
BEGALA: If Halliburton would have built the rowboat, they would have charged us $1 billion. Absolutely.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: That is perfect. That is perfect. You can do it.
BEGALA: Thank you very much.
CARLSON: You can do it, Paul. You're going to win this election on Halliburton. Good for you! Halliburton.
BEGALA: I have to rise to the challenge.
That's it. From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again Monday for yet more CROSSFIRE. Have a great weekend. See you.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
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