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CNN Crossfire
War of Words Over Terror
Aired September 24, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: It's the war of words over the war on terror.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Iraq is now what it was not before the war, a haven for terrorists. George Bush made Saddam Hussein the priority. I would have made Osama bin Laden the priority.
ANNOUNCER: President Bush stays the course in his war plan.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If we show uncertainty or weakness in this decade, the world will drift toward tragedy. This isn't going to happen on my watch.
ANNOUNCER: While Teresa Heinz-Kerry says don't be surprised to see Osama bin Laden show up in October.
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Robert Novak.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Senator John Kerry laid out his plan for the war on terror today, if you want to call it a plan. It's full of half-baked ideas, fuzzy facts. Kerry may finally finding his voice on the war on terror, but that might not be to his political advantage.
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Kerry's plan is right on. Not only does he shift the focus back to where it should be, on bin Laden. He sets it up to begin taking about how to get out of Iraq. More on that.
First, the best little briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Remember the promises made by President Bush as he was losing the presidential campaign to Al Gore by more than a half million votes? He said he'd keep the budget in balance, have a humble foreign policy and strengthen the military. We all know what happened to the first two and now bad news on the third.
West Point graduate Senator Jack Reed of Ohio -- Rhode Island -- read from a study commissioned by Bush's own Pentagon by appointed outside experts who said the current state of the American military is so weak that we do not have sufficient forces to provide for missions in Iraq and Afghanistan. In other words, President Bush has wrecked the military he inherited, which was so powerful that it won the Iraq war in three weeks.
So, just for the record, he has exploded the deficit, ruined America's good name abroad. And in a study commissioned by his own administration shows how he has wrecked the American military. Is there any promises this man has made that he hasn't broken?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You know, James, thank you for paid political commercial. I'm sure they would appreciate it.
As a matter of fact, of course, he didn't inherit that military. He built that military from the weak spot he had found it when he inherited it from Clinton, because -- the Iraq war not in the first year of the administration. I know you get confused sometimes.
CARVILLE: Right. Right.
NOVAK: It was just last year.
CARVILLE: The same level that Clinton had. His own commission said that he has wrecked it. I didn't say that. The Pentagon said that.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Well, that's not what that study said.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: You misinterpret the study and distort it.
CARVILLE: Right. Right on.
NOVAK: The CROSSFIRE political alert is becoming the Teresa watch. Teresa Heinz Kerry, the Democratic nominee's wife, headlined a $1 million fund-raiser at the posh Arizona Biltmore Resort and Spa in Phoenix.
In her speech, she talked about Osama bin Laden being captured just in time to hurt her husband's chances to be elected. That's straight out of "Looney Tunes" from the Internet.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Will the Kerry campaign muzzle Teresa Heinz-Kerry? For the answer, take a look at her profile in this week's "New Yorker" magazine. Teresa says said she won't be told how to behave and she's too old to be bossed around. That's the way it is when a candidate's wife is a billionaire.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: You know, first of all, I've been to Biltmore. It's a very nice place. And second of all, see, I don't believe you ought to muzzle your wife. I think my wife could speak out. I actually think women ought to have an opinion.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I don't think they need to be muzzled. I like women -- I like women that offer opinions. Mrs. Heinz-Kerry is not running for president. But I don't believe in muzzling women. I believe in letting women talk.
NOVAK: Well, you know very well that the Kerry campaign thinks that she says stupid things, when she says that people who disagree with her are idiots. She thinks she's better than anybody. She even thinks she's better than you, James.
CARVILLE: I don't know about that. I think my wife...
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: I'm not talking about your wife. I'm talking about his wife.
CARVILLE: I'm for letting women have their say.
Frankly, I'm sick of Democratic whiners out there. I want to read you part of a memorandum I just posted on my Web site. In it, I show that the average of all public polls of yesterday has President Bush with only a 1.5-point lead. The best of all polls, Democratic Corps poll, has him with only a two-point lead.
You would have to be awfully stupid to believe that an incumbent with a two-point lead, polling at 47 percent, is anything other than in serious jeopardy of failing to win reelection. Hey, Democrats, we have got 40 days until the election. Let's get together and help John Kerry get the job done.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, James, in the first place, I think, in the interest of full disclosure, we ought to say that you are the co-chairman of the Democracy Corps.
CARVILLE: I said that.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You didn't say that.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: I think you ought to say...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I'm the co-chairman of the Democracy Corps. It's the best private poll out there. And I'm sick of these whining Democrats.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: And in second place, I think it's a very close race for president. I think that people go a little bananas on all these polls. They go up and they go down.
But I think it's very interesting that the first time the Democrats had some bad polls, they head for the hills, wringing their hands.
CARVILLE: I agree. I agree.
NOVAK: Republicans have bad polls, they say, let's fight harder.
CARVILLE: I agree with you. I agree with you. And they're nothing but a -- and all those whiny Democrats out there sitting there complaining, you need to be glove-slapped.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: I completely agree with you.
NOVAK: I'd like to see you do that.
Democrats in the House of Representatives may not be totally stupid, but they sure give a good imitation of it. Yesterday, 166 House Democrats voted against the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag. A bill passed by a 74-vote margin to amend Title 28 of the U.S. Code to remove jurisdiction to the federal courts to mess around with the Pledge of Allegiance, including the words "under God."
That was the idea of a bright second-term Republican from Missouri, Todd Akin. The Democrats have been out of the power on Capitol Hill for 10 years. And with votes like this one, they may stay in the wilderness for a very long time.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Well, they didn't vote against the Pledge of Allegiance. What they did is, is that the courts would have jurisdiction over the First Amendment.
You know, Bob, I don't know what it is about people, you all want to muzzle women. You want to tell people what to say. You want to control everything, you and Ashcroft. And I don't want to muzzle anybody and let people, if they've a got complaint on something, let them say it. They didn't vote against the Pledge of Allegiance.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: In the interest of the full disclosure, James...
CARVILLE: Right.
NOVAK: .There's a lot of people, as I go around the country, who agree with me. I'd like to muzzle you.
CARVILLE: Really?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You know what? I do. And a lot of people would because they don't like the truth.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: And from this chair, they get the truth.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: The truth shall set you free.
NOVAK: John Kerry spent today attacking what he says are President Bush's wrong choices. That's pretty good coming from a candidate who's chosen to come down on both sides of every issue time and time again. Next, we'll debate just who should lead the war on terror.
And, later, taking the plunge for office. You won't believe who's trying to woo voters with this stunt.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to CROSSFIRE at the George Washington University, call 202-994-8CNN or visit our Web site. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: The war on terror and who should lead the charge is getting some much-needed attention today. John Kerry laid out a well- crafted outline to get us back on the right track. The Bush folks say he's just repackaging initiatives already implemented by the president.
Joining us in the CROSSFIRE to hash it out are former Virginia Governor and my Old Town Alexandria neighbor Jim Gilmore. He chaired the Gilmore Commission, an advisory panel on domestic response to terrorism in the RAND Corporation. And P.J. Crowley, another dear friend of mine, is a former spokesman for President Clinton's National Security Council.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You're now with the Center For American Progress.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Everybody's raving about Senator Kerry's speech on terrorism today. He made one big booboo. And let's just listen to it right here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: All you have to do is ask General Tommy Franks how surprised he was that those troops got moved out of there when he was trying to do the job he was doing before the Congress had even approved moving to Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: He's saying that General Franks, all you got to do is ask him about moving troops out of Afghanistan to Iraq. Now, let me tell you what Tommy Franks said
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Just a minute. Just a minute.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Wait a minute, P.J. I ask the question and then you answer it, OK?
(LAUGHTER)
P.J. CROWLEY, SENIOR FELLOW, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: Ask the right question.
NOVAK: I will ask you the question, if you don't interrupt me.
Tommy Franks on the Sean Hannity radio show said: "My name is Tommy Franks. I don't lie. Reading my book, the way you have, I would refer you to page 386 of my book, where we go ahead and we talk about the fact that the president used to stress to me every day his concern that we should not distract from Afghanistan and the fight there while we were conducting Iraq."
CROWLEY: Bob, you're detached from reality, just the way that President Bush is detached from reality if you think that we haven't diverted attention from Afghanistan to Iraq.
Here we are. We're 18 months into the mission in Iraq. We've spent $145 billion. We've suffered 1,000 casualties. And what do we have. We have a bearded guy in jail who's not the one that attacked us on 9/11.
NOVAK: Well, why is it, P.J., that when I ask Kerry people a question, they never answer? What I asked you -- and I'll try to explain.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Just a minute.
CROWLEY: We have absolutely diverted attention away from what attacked us on 9/11 what we eventually have to address.
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: We are losing the war on terrorism because of Iraq.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You are repeating yourself. And let me ask you the question. If you will concentrate and listen to it, I would appreciate it.
And that was that Senator Kerry, trying to be president of the United States, says, to prove your point, ask Tommy Franks. Tommy Franks was the commander of the whole theater. He says that didn't happen. How do you answer? How do you respond to that?
CROWLEY: Well, and Tommy Franks did not have enough troops to come into the country. A fundamental mistake...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Read Senator Graham's book. It clears that up.
CROWLEY: We did not have enough troops to win the peace, just as we did not have enough troops to win...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You call him a liar? You call Tommy Franks a liar?
CROWLEY: Tommy Franks had a bad plan.
CARVILLE: He had a bad plan. There you go.
Governor Gilmore, I want to show you a new ad that president -- I mean, that Senator Kerry has just put up. And I think it brings up an interesting point here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AD)
BUSH: I saw a poll that said the right track/wrong track in Iraq was better than here in America.
NARRATOR: Right track? Americans are being kidnapped, held hostage, even beheaded. Over 1,000 soldiers have died. And George Bush has no plan to get us out of Iraq. John Kerry does. The Kerry solution: Allies share the burden, train Iraqis to protect themselves.
KERRY: I'm John Kerry and I approved this message.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: Now, governor, this is what my question is, is, do you believe that the president believes that we're on the right track in Iraq or do you believe that he's just saying that, because, obviously, he can't really believe that, can he? It's not possible.
(LAUGHTER)
JAMES GILMORE (R), FORMER VIRGINIA GOVERNOR: You know, this speech That Senator Kerry put out today, you probably wrote that speech, James. I don't know. But, clearly, Kerry has come into it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I wish I could take credit for it.
GILMORE: Kerry's come into this very, very late in the day. He's been absent without leave on this for years and years, a now a couple of months before the election, even a few weeks before the election, he rolls in. And you know what? It's all warmed-over stuff.
CARVILLE: Really?
GILMORE: It's what the president's been doing. It's what the president's been doing all along.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Let me ask you again.
The CIA issues a devastating briefing to the president that says the best we can hope for is to muddle through. We're losing people at a faster rate after the handover than we did before. We're ceding large parts of the country. My question is, the president can't really believe that we're on the right track in Iraq, can he?
GILMORE: Well, well...
CARVILLE: Is it possible that he -- that's all I'm trying to ask you, Governor. Could he possibly think that?
(CROSSTALK) GILMORE: Here's the answer. After 9/11, everybody knew that this was going to be a tough, long struggle, it's going to a difficult situation, that it's going to take a long time.
CARVILLE: Right.
GILMORE: Had to do it in Afghanistan, have to do it in Iraq, have to do it in other places as well. This has been a problem that has been brewing for many years, all through the Clinton administration, all left to fester. The president has now got...
(CROSSTALK)
GILMORE: Well, that's absolutely true. Now got to deal with the situation. And he's doing it.
(CROSSTALK)
GILMORE: But, meanwhile, what does Kerry do?
CROWLEY: We have George Bush have had to go into Iraq to redeem the mistakes that his father made and the mistakes that his vice president made.
GILMORE: No.
CROWLEY: He's lost situational awareness in Iraq, is what we say. And when that happens, the troops are in danger. The mission is at risk.
He doesn't read the newspaper. He doesn't read Bob's column unless one of his staff breaks the law.
(CROSSTALK)
GILMORE: P.J...
CROWLEY: Wait a second.
GILMORE: Can you talk longer than anybody else can? Is that the ball game here?
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CROWLEY: He doesn't even read intelligence estimates that tell him that we're on the wrong course.
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: He's determined to stay the course, rather than adapting to a better one.
GILMORE: He here's the bottom line on the topic at hand, which is Kerry's speech. He say that he wants to do something to improve intelligence. That is ongoing. We're talking about weapons of mass destruction. That has been put under control, terrorist financing, Patriot Act.
(CROSSTALK)
GILMORE: Homeland security, whole department made.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. It's my turn.
I would suggest to you, Colonel -- and I mean this seriously -- that you don't accuse people of breaking the law when you're talking about something you don't know the slightest thing about. I think it's a very...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: No, we're not going to get into it. Just be very careful about making accusations about people breaking the law.
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: Well, you know something about that, but you won't talk to the government about it.
NOVAK: But you don't know anything of what I'm doing. And I think it demeans you to accuse people of breaking the law. And I think you made a big mistake.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Both Novak never accused President Clinton of breaking the law, did he?
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: I'm not asking for a response.
CROWLEY: When the special prosecutor finishes the work, we'll know if that happened or not.
NOVAK: Joe Lockhart, who -- was one of your colleagues, and he sounds like it in the White House, said this of interim Prime Minister Allawi, who is a very brave man trying to do a good job in Iraq. He's a visitor to our country.
This is what Lockhart said: "The last thing you want to be seen as is a puppet of the United States. And you can almost see the hand underneath the shirt today moving the list."
You used to work on the National Security Council. Do you think that's in the best interests of the country to say something like that?
CROWLEY: Well, all right it may be slightly inartful.
NOVAK: Slightly inartful?
CROWLEY: However, it's absolutely -- it's absolutely true.
The is fact is that Allawi is our appointed leader. He's a good man. He's trying to do a good job. I wish that, rather than having appointed a viceroy named Bremer for a year, we actually had put Allawi in place earlier, so that he could actually be making the progress, some of which he's making now.
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: Allawi is a good man. But the issue is not how we see him. The issue is how the Iraqi people see him. And they won't be able to do that, express their views until January, if we can get from where we are now to where we need to be, free and fair elections.
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: We don't control vast sums of Iraq right now.
CARVILLE: I want to go back to my question. You said at CIA, intelligence has improved. July, this president from his CIA got a piece of intelligence that said the best we can hope for is to muddle through. The Royal Academy of Foreign Policy in London said the same thing.
My question I keep coming back to is, he can't really believe that we're on the right track in Iraq, can he? He's just got to be trying to fake it through the election.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
GILMORE: But it's this. But it's the big picture.
And the big picture, James, is this. You're going to have to do something to transform the Middle East and create a more stable situation. You can't do that with a dictator like Saddam Hussein in charge of all that oil. And the president went in there to make sure that we were going to be sure to deal with the situation.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I think you agree with me. He doesn't really believe it. He can't believe it.
NOVAK: OK. We're going to have to take a break.
And next in "Rapid Fire," does John Kerry, really, in his heart, wish Saddam Hussein was still in power?
And can it really be happening again? The latest on the threat to Florida from Hurricane Jeanne.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Jeanne Meserve in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, storm-weary Floridians prepare for another hurricane, the fourth for them of the season. The trial of Saddam Hussein, who's in, who's out and why it may not happen until next year. Plus, he's not your average college football player. We'll show you what sets him apart from the pack.
Those stories and much are just more minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
CARVILLE: Time for "Rapid Fire," where we pose questions faster than the Bushies can number the excuses for a failing program to fight terror.
Our guests are Jim Gilmore, former governor of Virginia and chairman of the RAND Corporation's Gilmore Commission studying domestic response to terrorism, and former Clinton National Security Council spokesman P.J. Crowley. He's now with the Center For American Progress.
NOVAK: Colonel Crowley, Senator Kerry says that we shouldn't have made Saddam Hussein a target. Is he suggesting he wishes that he were back in power in Baghdad, instead of being forced out?
CROWLEY: John Kerry knows the difference between Osama bin Laden, the guy who actually attacked us, and Saddam Hussein, the guy that didn't.
CARVILLE: Governor Gilmore, in the "Wall Street Journal"/NBC poll, it had the asked, was removing Saddam Hussein worth the casualties and financial cost? Yes, 40, no, 52. Is there something wrong with 52 percent of the American people in America that say that, you know what, it wasn't worth all of this?
GILMORE: All they're seeing is what's on the evening news. But the fact of the matter is that we're coming down to the point where we've got to understand that we've got to do something about creating some stability in the Middle East. And you can't do that when you've a dictator who hates America who is standing astride and threatening his neighbors, the way he did in Kuwait.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Senator Kerry did not say today that or this week that he would move the troops out of Iraq if he's elected. Will he?
CROWLEY: Either president will eventually take the troops out of Iraq, because, the longer they're there, it's worse for our strategic position in the Middle East.
CARVILLE: Governor Gilmore, Iran has a nondemocratic government that hates America. Do you think we should invade Iran right now?
GILMORE: I do not think we should invade Iran. But what we should do -- what we should do is impose sanctions and make it very clear, just like we do with Libya, that their best interests are in not creating that kind of weapons of mass destruction. The Bush policy worked with Libya. It can work with Iran.
CARVILLE: What about...
NOVAK: Senator Kerry consistently voted against all defense spending when he was in the Senate. Will he consistently cut all defense spending if he's president?
CROWLEY: First of all, that's an absurd charge. It's not true. John Kerry has supported a strong defense. He will do as president.
CARVILLE: The Syrians have an unelected government that hates America. There was talk about going into Syria after Iraq.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Would you favor an invasion of Syria?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: And I'll take your laughter as no. That wouldn't be a very good idea.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: In a speech today, Senator Kerry said he would never, ever, ever take a position different from Israel. Is the policy toward the Middle East under a Kerry administration made in Tel Aviv?
(BELL RINGING)
GILMORE: The president -- the secretary -- Mr. Kerry will support Israel, but I think he'll pursue a Middle East peace process.
NOVAK: OK, thank you very much, P.J. Crowley.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Thank you, Governor Jim Gilmore.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Next, it's our favorite version of stupid, stupid politician tricks.
(APPLAUSE) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Some people will do anything to get reelected, Representative David Wu, a Democrat from Oregon, for instance. Check out his latest campaign ad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AD)
REP. DAVID WU (D), OREGON: Privatizing Social Security is about as risky as, well, jumping off a bridge. That's why I will never vote for it in Congress.
I approved this message, and I do my own stunts.
Oh, boy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Republican challenger Goli Ameri wasted no time in firing off her response, posting her 10 reasons David Wu would jump from a bridge.
Here's one: "Because David Wu is a screaming liberal."
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: And the No. 1 reason, House Democratic Nancy Pelosi said jump and an eager Mr. Wu really tried to impress.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: You know, I did an event when I was running a race for a guy running for governor of Kentucky, a coal miner. I said, you know what? I'm not going in any coal mine. I'm not jumping off any bridges either.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: But I think the guy made a good point with his spot.
NOVAK: I'll jump from an airplane, but not from a bridge.
CARVILLE: No, I ain't going to jump from an airplane either. But guess what? I'll jump off this stage.
From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak.
Join me tomorrow morning at 9:30 a.m. Eastern for "THE NOVAK ZONE." My guest, former White House pastry chef Roland Mesnier.
And join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
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Aired September 24, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: It's the war of words over the war on terror.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Iraq is now what it was not before the war, a haven for terrorists. George Bush made Saddam Hussein the priority. I would have made Osama bin Laden the priority.
ANNOUNCER: President Bush stays the course in his war plan.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If we show uncertainty or weakness in this decade, the world will drift toward tragedy. This isn't going to happen on my watch.
ANNOUNCER: While Teresa Heinz-Kerry says don't be surprised to see Osama bin Laden show up in October.
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Robert Novak.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Senator John Kerry laid out his plan for the war on terror today, if you want to call it a plan. It's full of half-baked ideas, fuzzy facts. Kerry may finally finding his voice on the war on terror, but that might not be to his political advantage.
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Kerry's plan is right on. Not only does he shift the focus back to where it should be, on bin Laden. He sets it up to begin taking about how to get out of Iraq. More on that.
First, the best little briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Remember the promises made by President Bush as he was losing the presidential campaign to Al Gore by more than a half million votes? He said he'd keep the budget in balance, have a humble foreign policy and strengthen the military. We all know what happened to the first two and now bad news on the third.
West Point graduate Senator Jack Reed of Ohio -- Rhode Island -- read from a study commissioned by Bush's own Pentagon by appointed outside experts who said the current state of the American military is so weak that we do not have sufficient forces to provide for missions in Iraq and Afghanistan. In other words, President Bush has wrecked the military he inherited, which was so powerful that it won the Iraq war in three weeks.
So, just for the record, he has exploded the deficit, ruined America's good name abroad. And in a study commissioned by his own administration shows how he has wrecked the American military. Is there any promises this man has made that he hasn't broken?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You know, James, thank you for paid political commercial. I'm sure they would appreciate it.
As a matter of fact, of course, he didn't inherit that military. He built that military from the weak spot he had found it when he inherited it from Clinton, because -- the Iraq war not in the first year of the administration. I know you get confused sometimes.
CARVILLE: Right. Right.
NOVAK: It was just last year.
CARVILLE: The same level that Clinton had. His own commission said that he has wrecked it. I didn't say that. The Pentagon said that.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Well, that's not what that study said.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: You misinterpret the study and distort it.
CARVILLE: Right. Right on.
NOVAK: The CROSSFIRE political alert is becoming the Teresa watch. Teresa Heinz Kerry, the Democratic nominee's wife, headlined a $1 million fund-raiser at the posh Arizona Biltmore Resort and Spa in Phoenix.
In her speech, she talked about Osama bin Laden being captured just in time to hurt her husband's chances to be elected. That's straight out of "Looney Tunes" from the Internet.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Will the Kerry campaign muzzle Teresa Heinz-Kerry? For the answer, take a look at her profile in this week's "New Yorker" magazine. Teresa says said she won't be told how to behave and she's too old to be bossed around. That's the way it is when a candidate's wife is a billionaire.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: You know, first of all, I've been to Biltmore. It's a very nice place. And second of all, see, I don't believe you ought to muzzle your wife. I think my wife could speak out. I actually think women ought to have an opinion.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I don't think they need to be muzzled. I like women -- I like women that offer opinions. Mrs. Heinz-Kerry is not running for president. But I don't believe in muzzling women. I believe in letting women talk.
NOVAK: Well, you know very well that the Kerry campaign thinks that she says stupid things, when she says that people who disagree with her are idiots. She thinks she's better than anybody. She even thinks she's better than you, James.
CARVILLE: I don't know about that. I think my wife...
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: I'm not talking about your wife. I'm talking about his wife.
CARVILLE: I'm for letting women have their say.
Frankly, I'm sick of Democratic whiners out there. I want to read you part of a memorandum I just posted on my Web site. In it, I show that the average of all public polls of yesterday has President Bush with only a 1.5-point lead. The best of all polls, Democratic Corps poll, has him with only a two-point lead.
You would have to be awfully stupid to believe that an incumbent with a two-point lead, polling at 47 percent, is anything other than in serious jeopardy of failing to win reelection. Hey, Democrats, we have got 40 days until the election. Let's get together and help John Kerry get the job done.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, James, in the first place, I think, in the interest of full disclosure, we ought to say that you are the co-chairman of the Democracy Corps.
CARVILLE: I said that.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You didn't say that.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: I think you ought to say...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I'm the co-chairman of the Democracy Corps. It's the best private poll out there. And I'm sick of these whining Democrats.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: And in second place, I think it's a very close race for president. I think that people go a little bananas on all these polls. They go up and they go down.
But I think it's very interesting that the first time the Democrats had some bad polls, they head for the hills, wringing their hands.
CARVILLE: I agree. I agree.
NOVAK: Republicans have bad polls, they say, let's fight harder.
CARVILLE: I agree with you. I agree with you. And they're nothing but a -- and all those whiny Democrats out there sitting there complaining, you need to be glove-slapped.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: I completely agree with you.
NOVAK: I'd like to see you do that.
Democrats in the House of Representatives may not be totally stupid, but they sure give a good imitation of it. Yesterday, 166 House Democrats voted against the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag. A bill passed by a 74-vote margin to amend Title 28 of the U.S. Code to remove jurisdiction to the federal courts to mess around with the Pledge of Allegiance, including the words "under God."
That was the idea of a bright second-term Republican from Missouri, Todd Akin. The Democrats have been out of the power on Capitol Hill for 10 years. And with votes like this one, they may stay in the wilderness for a very long time.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Well, they didn't vote against the Pledge of Allegiance. What they did is, is that the courts would have jurisdiction over the First Amendment.
You know, Bob, I don't know what it is about people, you all want to muzzle women. You want to tell people what to say. You want to control everything, you and Ashcroft. And I don't want to muzzle anybody and let people, if they've a got complaint on something, let them say it. They didn't vote against the Pledge of Allegiance.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: In the interest of the full disclosure, James...
CARVILLE: Right.
NOVAK: .There's a lot of people, as I go around the country, who agree with me. I'd like to muzzle you.
CARVILLE: Really?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You know what? I do. And a lot of people would because they don't like the truth.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: And from this chair, they get the truth.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: The truth shall set you free.
NOVAK: John Kerry spent today attacking what he says are President Bush's wrong choices. That's pretty good coming from a candidate who's chosen to come down on both sides of every issue time and time again. Next, we'll debate just who should lead the war on terror.
And, later, taking the plunge for office. You won't believe who's trying to woo voters with this stunt.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to CROSSFIRE at the George Washington University, call 202-994-8CNN or visit our Web site. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: The war on terror and who should lead the charge is getting some much-needed attention today. John Kerry laid out a well- crafted outline to get us back on the right track. The Bush folks say he's just repackaging initiatives already implemented by the president.
Joining us in the CROSSFIRE to hash it out are former Virginia Governor and my Old Town Alexandria neighbor Jim Gilmore. He chaired the Gilmore Commission, an advisory panel on domestic response to terrorism in the RAND Corporation. And P.J. Crowley, another dear friend of mine, is a former spokesman for President Clinton's National Security Council.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You're now with the Center For American Progress.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Everybody's raving about Senator Kerry's speech on terrorism today. He made one big booboo. And let's just listen to it right here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: All you have to do is ask General Tommy Franks how surprised he was that those troops got moved out of there when he was trying to do the job he was doing before the Congress had even approved moving to Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: He's saying that General Franks, all you got to do is ask him about moving troops out of Afghanistan to Iraq. Now, let me tell you what Tommy Franks said
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Just a minute. Just a minute.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Wait a minute, P.J. I ask the question and then you answer it, OK?
(LAUGHTER)
P.J. CROWLEY, SENIOR FELLOW, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: Ask the right question.
NOVAK: I will ask you the question, if you don't interrupt me.
Tommy Franks on the Sean Hannity radio show said: "My name is Tommy Franks. I don't lie. Reading my book, the way you have, I would refer you to page 386 of my book, where we go ahead and we talk about the fact that the president used to stress to me every day his concern that we should not distract from Afghanistan and the fight there while we were conducting Iraq."
CROWLEY: Bob, you're detached from reality, just the way that President Bush is detached from reality if you think that we haven't diverted attention from Afghanistan to Iraq.
Here we are. We're 18 months into the mission in Iraq. We've spent $145 billion. We've suffered 1,000 casualties. And what do we have. We have a bearded guy in jail who's not the one that attacked us on 9/11.
NOVAK: Well, why is it, P.J., that when I ask Kerry people a question, they never answer? What I asked you -- and I'll try to explain.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Just a minute.
CROWLEY: We have absolutely diverted attention away from what attacked us on 9/11 what we eventually have to address.
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: We are losing the war on terrorism because of Iraq.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You are repeating yourself. And let me ask you the question. If you will concentrate and listen to it, I would appreciate it.
And that was that Senator Kerry, trying to be president of the United States, says, to prove your point, ask Tommy Franks. Tommy Franks was the commander of the whole theater. He says that didn't happen. How do you answer? How do you respond to that?
CROWLEY: Well, and Tommy Franks did not have enough troops to come into the country. A fundamental mistake...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Read Senator Graham's book. It clears that up.
CROWLEY: We did not have enough troops to win the peace, just as we did not have enough troops to win...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You call him a liar? You call Tommy Franks a liar?
CROWLEY: Tommy Franks had a bad plan.
CARVILLE: He had a bad plan. There you go.
Governor Gilmore, I want to show you a new ad that president -- I mean, that Senator Kerry has just put up. And I think it brings up an interesting point here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AD)
BUSH: I saw a poll that said the right track/wrong track in Iraq was better than here in America.
NARRATOR: Right track? Americans are being kidnapped, held hostage, even beheaded. Over 1,000 soldiers have died. And George Bush has no plan to get us out of Iraq. John Kerry does. The Kerry solution: Allies share the burden, train Iraqis to protect themselves.
KERRY: I'm John Kerry and I approved this message.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: Now, governor, this is what my question is, is, do you believe that the president believes that we're on the right track in Iraq or do you believe that he's just saying that, because, obviously, he can't really believe that, can he? It's not possible.
(LAUGHTER)
JAMES GILMORE (R), FORMER VIRGINIA GOVERNOR: You know, this speech That Senator Kerry put out today, you probably wrote that speech, James. I don't know. But, clearly, Kerry has come into it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I wish I could take credit for it.
GILMORE: Kerry's come into this very, very late in the day. He's been absent without leave on this for years and years, a now a couple of months before the election, even a few weeks before the election, he rolls in. And you know what? It's all warmed-over stuff.
CARVILLE: Really?
GILMORE: It's what the president's been doing. It's what the president's been doing all along.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Let me ask you again.
The CIA issues a devastating briefing to the president that says the best we can hope for is to muddle through. We're losing people at a faster rate after the handover than we did before. We're ceding large parts of the country. My question is, the president can't really believe that we're on the right track in Iraq, can he?
GILMORE: Well, well...
CARVILLE: Is it possible that he -- that's all I'm trying to ask you, Governor. Could he possibly think that?
(CROSSTALK) GILMORE: Here's the answer. After 9/11, everybody knew that this was going to be a tough, long struggle, it's going to a difficult situation, that it's going to take a long time.
CARVILLE: Right.
GILMORE: Had to do it in Afghanistan, have to do it in Iraq, have to do it in other places as well. This has been a problem that has been brewing for many years, all through the Clinton administration, all left to fester. The president has now got...
(CROSSTALK)
GILMORE: Well, that's absolutely true. Now got to deal with the situation. And he's doing it.
(CROSSTALK)
GILMORE: But, meanwhile, what does Kerry do?
CROWLEY: We have George Bush have had to go into Iraq to redeem the mistakes that his father made and the mistakes that his vice president made.
GILMORE: No.
CROWLEY: He's lost situational awareness in Iraq, is what we say. And when that happens, the troops are in danger. The mission is at risk.
He doesn't read the newspaper. He doesn't read Bob's column unless one of his staff breaks the law.
(CROSSTALK)
GILMORE: P.J...
CROWLEY: Wait a second.
GILMORE: Can you talk longer than anybody else can? Is that the ball game here?
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CROWLEY: He doesn't even read intelligence estimates that tell him that we're on the wrong course.
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: He's determined to stay the course, rather than adapting to a better one.
GILMORE: He here's the bottom line on the topic at hand, which is Kerry's speech. He say that he wants to do something to improve intelligence. That is ongoing. We're talking about weapons of mass destruction. That has been put under control, terrorist financing, Patriot Act.
(CROSSTALK)
GILMORE: Homeland security, whole department made.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. It's my turn.
I would suggest to you, Colonel -- and I mean this seriously -- that you don't accuse people of breaking the law when you're talking about something you don't know the slightest thing about. I think it's a very...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: No, we're not going to get into it. Just be very careful about making accusations about people breaking the law.
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: Well, you know something about that, but you won't talk to the government about it.
NOVAK: But you don't know anything of what I'm doing. And I think it demeans you to accuse people of breaking the law. And I think you made a big mistake.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Both Novak never accused President Clinton of breaking the law, did he?
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: I'm not asking for a response.
CROWLEY: When the special prosecutor finishes the work, we'll know if that happened or not.
NOVAK: Joe Lockhart, who -- was one of your colleagues, and he sounds like it in the White House, said this of interim Prime Minister Allawi, who is a very brave man trying to do a good job in Iraq. He's a visitor to our country.
This is what Lockhart said: "The last thing you want to be seen as is a puppet of the United States. And you can almost see the hand underneath the shirt today moving the list."
You used to work on the National Security Council. Do you think that's in the best interests of the country to say something like that?
CROWLEY: Well, all right it may be slightly inartful.
NOVAK: Slightly inartful?
CROWLEY: However, it's absolutely -- it's absolutely true.
The is fact is that Allawi is our appointed leader. He's a good man. He's trying to do a good job. I wish that, rather than having appointed a viceroy named Bremer for a year, we actually had put Allawi in place earlier, so that he could actually be making the progress, some of which he's making now.
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: Allawi is a good man. But the issue is not how we see him. The issue is how the Iraqi people see him. And they won't be able to do that, express their views until January, if we can get from where we are now to where we need to be, free and fair elections.
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: We don't control vast sums of Iraq right now.
CARVILLE: I want to go back to my question. You said at CIA, intelligence has improved. July, this president from his CIA got a piece of intelligence that said the best we can hope for is to muddle through. The Royal Academy of Foreign Policy in London said the same thing.
My question I keep coming back to is, he can't really believe that we're on the right track in Iraq, can he? He's just got to be trying to fake it through the election.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
GILMORE: But it's this. But it's the big picture.
And the big picture, James, is this. You're going to have to do something to transform the Middle East and create a more stable situation. You can't do that with a dictator like Saddam Hussein in charge of all that oil. And the president went in there to make sure that we were going to be sure to deal with the situation.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I think you agree with me. He doesn't really believe it. He can't believe it.
NOVAK: OK. We're going to have to take a break.
And next in "Rapid Fire," does John Kerry, really, in his heart, wish Saddam Hussein was still in power?
And can it really be happening again? The latest on the threat to Florida from Hurricane Jeanne.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Jeanne Meserve in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, storm-weary Floridians prepare for another hurricane, the fourth for them of the season. The trial of Saddam Hussein, who's in, who's out and why it may not happen until next year. Plus, he's not your average college football player. We'll show you what sets him apart from the pack.
Those stories and much are just more minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
CARVILLE: Time for "Rapid Fire," where we pose questions faster than the Bushies can number the excuses for a failing program to fight terror.
Our guests are Jim Gilmore, former governor of Virginia and chairman of the RAND Corporation's Gilmore Commission studying domestic response to terrorism, and former Clinton National Security Council spokesman P.J. Crowley. He's now with the Center For American Progress.
NOVAK: Colonel Crowley, Senator Kerry says that we shouldn't have made Saddam Hussein a target. Is he suggesting he wishes that he were back in power in Baghdad, instead of being forced out?
CROWLEY: John Kerry knows the difference between Osama bin Laden, the guy who actually attacked us, and Saddam Hussein, the guy that didn't.
CARVILLE: Governor Gilmore, in the "Wall Street Journal"/NBC poll, it had the asked, was removing Saddam Hussein worth the casualties and financial cost? Yes, 40, no, 52. Is there something wrong with 52 percent of the American people in America that say that, you know what, it wasn't worth all of this?
GILMORE: All they're seeing is what's on the evening news. But the fact of the matter is that we're coming down to the point where we've got to understand that we've got to do something about creating some stability in the Middle East. And you can't do that when you've a dictator who hates America who is standing astride and threatening his neighbors, the way he did in Kuwait.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Senator Kerry did not say today that or this week that he would move the troops out of Iraq if he's elected. Will he?
CROWLEY: Either president will eventually take the troops out of Iraq, because, the longer they're there, it's worse for our strategic position in the Middle East.
CARVILLE: Governor Gilmore, Iran has a nondemocratic government that hates America. Do you think we should invade Iran right now?
GILMORE: I do not think we should invade Iran. But what we should do -- what we should do is impose sanctions and make it very clear, just like we do with Libya, that their best interests are in not creating that kind of weapons of mass destruction. The Bush policy worked with Libya. It can work with Iran.
CARVILLE: What about...
NOVAK: Senator Kerry consistently voted against all defense spending when he was in the Senate. Will he consistently cut all defense spending if he's president?
CROWLEY: First of all, that's an absurd charge. It's not true. John Kerry has supported a strong defense. He will do as president.
CARVILLE: The Syrians have an unelected government that hates America. There was talk about going into Syria after Iraq.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Would you favor an invasion of Syria?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: And I'll take your laughter as no. That wouldn't be a very good idea.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: In a speech today, Senator Kerry said he would never, ever, ever take a position different from Israel. Is the policy toward the Middle East under a Kerry administration made in Tel Aviv?
(BELL RINGING)
GILMORE: The president -- the secretary -- Mr. Kerry will support Israel, but I think he'll pursue a Middle East peace process.
NOVAK: OK, thank you very much, P.J. Crowley.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Thank you, Governor Jim Gilmore.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Next, it's our favorite version of stupid, stupid politician tricks.
(APPLAUSE) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Some people will do anything to get reelected, Representative David Wu, a Democrat from Oregon, for instance. Check out his latest campaign ad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AD)
REP. DAVID WU (D), OREGON: Privatizing Social Security is about as risky as, well, jumping off a bridge. That's why I will never vote for it in Congress.
I approved this message, and I do my own stunts.
Oh, boy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Republican challenger Goli Ameri wasted no time in firing off her response, posting her 10 reasons David Wu would jump from a bridge.
Here's one: "Because David Wu is a screaming liberal."
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: And the No. 1 reason, House Democratic Nancy Pelosi said jump and an eager Mr. Wu really tried to impress.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: You know, I did an event when I was running a race for a guy running for governor of Kentucky, a coal miner. I said, you know what? I'm not going in any coal mine. I'm not jumping off any bridges either.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: But I think the guy made a good point with his spot.
NOVAK: I'll jump from an airplane, but not from a bridge.
CARVILLE: No, I ain't going to jump from an airplane either. But guess what? I'll jump off this stage.
From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak.
Join me tomorrow morning at 9:30 a.m. Eastern for "THE NOVAK ZONE." My guest, former White House pastry chef Roland Mesnier.
And join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
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