Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Crossfire
Presidential Showdown in Arizona
Aired October 13, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: the last presidential debate. Tonight, in Tempe, Arizona, it's the final face-off for George Bush and John Kerry before Election Day. The candidates duel over domestic issues. On the table, the economy, taxes jobs, health care. Can either man score a knockout? And which one will do the best job of swaying the all- important undecided voter?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the campus of Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona, Paul Begala and, sitting in on the right, J.D. Hayward.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: It is standing room only here at Arizona State University, with all the energy and electricity they normally reserve for PAC 10 football.
Keeping the football metaphors going, in the immortal words of Keith Jackson, tonight's debate is going to be a barn-burner. These two teams just flat don't like each other.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: And joining me today, filling in for our own Bob Novak, who is on the disabled list, former North Carolina State star football player, former sports anchorman, now the Republican congressman from this very district, my friend, J.D. Hayworth.
REP. J.D. HAYWORTH (R-AZ), GUEST HOST: Welcome to the 5th Congressional District of Arizona, Paul, and to ASU for CROSSFIRE.
Let me just tell you this, pal. For purposes of full disclosure, I was the biggest washout in Wolfpack history. Recruited as right tackle, I ended up left out. Just can ask Coach Amato about that.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, you're good to fill in for Novak. We appreciate you hosting us here in your district as well, J.D.
HAYWORTH: Thank you.
BEGALA: Well, let's begin, as we always do, with the best little briefing in television, the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
HAYWORTH: Grisly new evidence has been found in Iraq that shows just why Saddam Hussein had to be removed from power. U.S. forces found a mass grave site in northwestern Iraq filled with the bodies of men, women and children, what officials believe are Kurdish victims slaughtered by Saddam's regime. Two grave trenches have been dug up thus far. There could be as many as a dozen in the same area. Some of the victims were pregnant. One child still had a ball in his hand.
One U.S. official called the gruesome site -- quote -- "a perfect place for execution" -- end quote. It's also a perfect demonstration of why the president was right to take action against Saddam when he did.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, but that wasn't the rationale the president gave us, J.D. When Saddam was murdering the Kurds, Ronald Reagan was sending him supplies and Donald Rumsfeld was going over there to kiss his ring. The president said that Saddam was a threat to us. And he wasn't. And he misled us into that war. And that's the issue in the election.
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: No, no. Saddam was a threat, and it's great that Saddam is gone and in the slammer, Paul.
BEGALA: Well, it's great that he's gone, but he was never a threat to America.
HAYWORTH: Oh, you're in a dream world, pal.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: The president misled us...
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: That's not true. That's not misleading. That's taking good, positive action.
BEGALA: Tell that to the 138,000 guys we sent over there.
HAYWORTH: We are. That's why the election will be won by George W. Bush.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Sweating in the heat. It's even hotter than your district here in Tempe.
Well, hopefully, debate moderator Bob Schieffer will ask President Bush tonight about his treasury secretary's comments this week, that the 820,000 jobs we have lost under President Bush are nothing but a myth. The Bush administration's own Department of Labor reports that on the day that Mr. Bush took office, there were 132,390,000 jobs in the economy, today, just 131,570,000. You do the math. It's no myth. We have lost 821,000 jobs since George W. Bush became president.
Mr. Snow also said that the Clinton budget surplus -- quote -- "never existed" -- unquote. Oh? According to the president's own Office of Management and Budget, the 10-year budget surplus President Clinton left to President Bush was $5.6 trillion. Let's hope that tonight the president faces reality, and the reality is, he inherited strong job growth and a record surplus, and he blew them both, which surprised me, because I thought, if George W. Bush would be good at anything, it would be at inheriting things.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
HAYWORTH: Mighty cheeky, Paul. But it flies in the face of reality.
And here's the reality. In the last eight months, almost two million jobs created. And the day George W. Bush took office, sad to say this, the nation was headed into a recession. But the positive actions of George W. Bush and this administration has got more people back to work.
(BELL RINGING)
HAYWORTH: As I said, close to two million jobs.
BEGALA: Yes, it's not a myth; 800,000 people who used to have jobs now don't.
HAYWORTH: And they're going to get back to work as long as we can...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Bush should be held accountable for that.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: As soon as George Bush loses his job, they'll get theirs back.
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
HAYWORTH: Ah, very cheeky. Oh, no, pal. He's not going to lose his job. And here's why, Paul, as John Edwards, just this week, uttered perhaps the most outrageous statement of the entire campaign.
Senator Edwards said -- quote -- "When John Kerry is president, people like Christopher Reeve are going to walk, get up out of that wheelchair and walk again" -- close quote. Edwards gave a millions of infirm Americans false hope by claiming that stem cell cures are just around the corner. The fact is, there's no guarantee that stem cell research will ever lead to the cures Kerry and Edwards irresponsibly tell us are near.
For Kerry and Edwards to give false hope in a scheme to win votes is just about as sleazy as it gets, even for you, Paul.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: So, is it sleazy for Nancy Reagan, who says the same thing as John Edwards?
HAYWORTH: That's not what she said.
BEGALA: Oh, sure she does. And for Ron Reagan Jr.?
HAYWORTH: And she didn't get up in the campaign trail and try to promise people, make a false promise about medical research.
BEGALA: Her son did. Ronald Reagan's son, Ron Reagan Jr., gave one of the best speeches at the Democratic Convention about how we should follow the science, not the politician, not John Edwards, who is a politician, not George Bush, a politician, just follow the science.
HAYWORTH: If you follow the sound science, then you know it's adult stem cell research that has made the difference.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's not what the docs say, though. Why don't we just follow the docs?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Look, George W. Bush is following Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson and the kook right.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Because he needs their votes for the election.
(BELL RINGING)
HAYWORTH: You know, it's always great, Paul. We can count on you for sloganeering instead of solutions.
BEGALA: Solutions are -- research stem cells so that people...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... who have terrible diseases can be cured.
HAYWORTH: Seventy lines of stem cell research
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Seventy lines of garbage.
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: Garbage? Wow. You heard another whacked-out statement.
BEGALA: Sinclair Ventures, which owns the TV stations airing an anti-Kerry hate film, is a major investor in a company called Jadoo Power Systems. On September 28, Jadoo was awarded a contract by the Bush administration to develop power systems for the U.S. Special Operations Command. Now, Sinclair is barely profitable and badly burdened by debt. Some of its major stockholders are upset over Sinclair's decision to run the right-wing propaganda.
But Sinclair has an awful lot riding on this election, first because it is an investor in this defense contractor that just got a contract from Mr. Bush, second, because it wants the federal government to allow Sinclair to own two or more stations in the same market.
Look, I've got an idea. After the anti-Kerry smear, Sinclair should simply air not all of Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11." That would be fair, and we don't ever expect right-wing thugs to be air, so just air the seven minutes where President Bush is told that America is under attack and yet responded by just sitting there reading "The Pet Goat" to a room full of second-graders. That would be the best response possible.
HAYWORTH: You know, Paul, I know your advice would be bring them into the Lincoln Bedroom for an overnight.
And the other thing, this cheap shot about the president not alarming second-graders, maybe you should have been like John Kerry, just standing up gazing into the sky after staying 40 full minutes...
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
HAYWORTH: ... on Capitol Hill.
BEGALA: He's the president of the United States and he's reading a storybook to children?
HAYWORTH: And he swung into action.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, he didn't. He peed his pants and he hid in the side of a mountain. He was a total coward on 9/11, J.D.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: We've got the tape. Let's play the tape, Sinclair. (CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: These guys are desperate, folks.
BEGALA: Play the tape.
HAYWORTH: Well, John Kerry and George Bush get one more chance to go face to face right tonight here in Tempe. What does each man have to do to seize the big mo?
BEGALA: We'll preview the debate just ahead.
And then later, he has scripted Tom Hanks and Reese Witherspoon. What does film director Gary Ross have for the two candidates as they head into the performance of their lives?
Stay with us.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE from the campus of Arizona State, site of tonight's presidential debate.
John Kerry stayed in last night and watched his beloved Red Sox lose to the Yankees. So he's probably a little angry, be spoiling for a fight tonight. President Bush, meanwhile, will have to work hard to stay focused on the debate and not let his mind drift over to the fact that the rival Houston Astros are in the championship series for the NL and not his beloved Texas Rangers from the American League.
Today, in the CROSSFIRE to discuss the tempest in Tempe, New York Democratic Congressman Gregory Meeks and one of J.D. Hayworth's colleagues in the Arizona congressional delegation, Republican Congressman Jeff Flake.
Gentlemen, thank you very much.
REP. JEFF FLAKE (R), ARIZONA: Thanks for having us.
HAYWORTH: Glad to have you here.
And, Greg, welcome to Arizona.
The first question for you two.
Sir, you will remember that John Kerry looked into the camera last Friday night and he said to the American people, I will not raise your taxes, even though he's voted at least 98 times during his Senate career to increase taxes. Why should the American people believe Senator Kerry, Greg?
REP. GREGORY MEEKS (D), NEW YORK: Because of the overwhelming number of times that he's voted to reduce taxes. He's the first to want to balance the budget to make sure that the government does not spend more than it's taking in.
And he will, you know, he broke with his party to do that. And he will continue to do that. What he says is that the 2 percent of Americans, those that make -- those that have -- we're going to make sure that they go back to their time, but middle-class and lower -- and poor people, they will not have to pay more taxes...
HAYWORTH: Oh, but he and his spouse earned $5.6 million last year and only paid a 12 percent tax rate. I guess some folks are more equal than others.
BEGALA: That's because of the tax rate that J.D. and Jeff Flake both
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: He went out and took advantage of that. And that's very interesting.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Bush has been very good to the very rich.
HAYWORTH: No, no, he used his lawyers to find the loopholes. It's very curious to see what happens, the kind of double-talk we get, the reason why we're going to victorious...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Congressman Flake, let me ask you about a different millionaire. That is John Snow. He's the president's secretary of the treasury. He said a curious thing. He said that the 820,000 Americans who lost their jobs under George W. Bush, that that's just a myth.
Now, do you want to look in the camera and tell those families, those moms and dads who can't put food on the table for their children, that their pain is just a myth? Or do you actually live in the real world and deal with reality and understand that we're losing jobs in America under George Bush?
FLAKE: What I'll say is that the job picture is improving. The economy is improving. And a big driver in that is the tax cuts that we've received.
Who in the world thinks that we would be better off had we left taxes where they were and that we'd be better off, the economy would be humming along better than it is now if we had higher taxes? I don't know how anybody can state into the camera and say that.
BEGALA: Let me ask just you a fundamental question. Let me just ask you. I know your district is here in Arizona.
FLAKE: Yes. BEGALA: It's not in Fantasy Island. So do we have more Americans working today or fewer Americans working today than the day George Bush took office?
FLAKE: Well, if you look at Arizona, if you look at...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: In America.
FLAKE: At East Valley -- I don't know what the national picture is.
BEGALA: Really?
FLAKE: All I know is we've had...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Republicans are this out of touch with the pain that they have wreaked on...
(CROSSTALK)
FLAKE: We have had 9/11. We've had a war. We've had a lot of things.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... excuses.
(CROSSTALK)
FLAKE: And, also, also, now, let's get back to the spending side.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: What about jobs?
FLAKE: Hey, if you look at -- no, jobs. It all goes to that. When the government takes more of your money and spends it, that's less money you have as a small businessman.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Was the budget balanced when the Democrats were in and is it now in deficit today?
(CROSSTALK)
FLAKE: When Democrats ran congress?
(LAUGHTER)
FLAKE: That's how Congress spends. And Congress is spending too much now. You can't blame all that on the president. But...
HAYWORTH: And speaking of Congress...
FLAKE: When you look at every time we propose something, the Democrats propose something bigger in terms of spending.
HAYWORTH: And speaking of something bigger from the Democrats for my friend Greg, you know, LBJ had a credibility gap. John Kerry has a credible canyon. How can Americans believe Senator Kerry on education? He says over and over that President Bush has cut funds for education, but he knows that overall funding for schools is up from $42 billion to $57 billion during the Bush administration.
Funds to encourage reading are up 43 percent. Teacher quality grants are up 39 percent. Special ed grants are up 75 percent. And Pell Grants for college students have increased 47 percent.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
HAYWORTH: Why is Kerry saying education is headed downward?
MEEKS: First off, J.D., you're right. LBJ had a credibility problem. His credibility problem was because of the Vietnam War. He lied to the American people. He didn't run for reelection because of that.
George Bush has a credibility problem, too. Some of it is because of the Iraqi war.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
MEEKS: He should have taken the advice of LBJ. He shouldn't be running for reelection.
HAYWORTH: So no answer on education. That's interesting, very revealing.
(CROSSTALK)
MEEKS: We know that President Bush talks about leaving no child behind. But yet he left all of the resources so that we could force it behind.
And so the education -- if you look at education, it is not moving forward under George Bush. He has these slogans, but he does not keep his word. He has a huge credibility gap with the people.
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: Now, I know math isn't something we don't study real well on Capitol Hill, but sounds to me like $57 billion is a lot bigger than $42 billion. That's an increase of $13 billion. Only in Washington would you call an increase a cut. That's kind of hocus pocus.
(CROSSTALK) MEEKS: Every day, you know what happens with just what we do? We get increases because of the cost of living. And you talked about moving on every year. It costs more money.
Well, it's the same thing with education. There's more children that are now enrolled in school this year than were last year. So it costs more money. And we didn't keep up with inflation.
(CROSSTALK)
MEEKS: And that $13 billion doesn't keep up with the inflation.
BEGALA: I'm sorry to interrupt. Let me come back to another issue, actually, that I hope comes up tonight, hasn't been discussed much in the campaign. And that is health care.
FLAKE: Right.
BEGALA: Now, four years ago, George W. Bush, who didn't have to defend his record, made a promise in the debates four years ago. Let me play that promise for you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. GEORGE W. BUSH (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I've got a plan to do something about that. It's to make health care affordable and available.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: To make health care affordable and available, that was his promise. Four years later, premiums are up 58 percent. Drug company profits are up 39 percent. And five million more Americans who had health insurance before Bush took office have lost their health insurance under Bush. He didn't keep that promise, did he, Congressman?
FLAKE: He has done a lot with health care.
BEGALA: Yes, he sure has.
FLAKE: Health savings accounts are going to revolutionize health care. We've got to allow the market to contain costs and improve quickly, instead of the Kerry plan, which is just let government take it over. And that's all it is.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's actually not Kerry's plan.
FLAKE: No, no, no, no, it is. Kerry is going to talk about, we're going to take all the uninsured. We're going to let government have catastrophic policy or whatever. That's going to health care. No how he wants to slice it, he had wants government to have a much bigger role. George Bush wants the market to actually help out.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It's interesting that you all want to shift the debate -- actually, a couple of reporters called the Lewin Group, which is a health care consulting firm that the president cites, they said the president is misleading about this, that Kerry's plan is not at all a government takeover.
But why don't you defend the Bush record? He promised he would do something to control costs and make health care affordable. Costs are through the roof. And millions of Americans are out there with no health insurance.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He's had four years. Why should we give him four more?
FLAKE: He can't do it on his own. The Congress has to help him as well.
BEGALA: No, he can't do it with a Republican Congress either.
FLAKE: Hey, you have to do tort reform. You have to do a number of things that he hasn't been able to get through the Congress. He has tried.
(CROSSTALK)
FLAKE: But health savings accounts have been very effective.
BEGALA: We should reelect him because he's been such a failure.
FLAKE: Hey, when you look at the flip side here and you look at government-controlled health care, that's what you've got to consider.
And when John Kerry stands and says, I'm going to give you free health care, who in the world is going to believe that? There's no such thing as a free lunch. We all know that.
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: That's right.
Here it is. Greg, you're a member of the International Relations Committee. Here's a question for you. John Kerry's plan for Iraq assumes he'll be able to convince other countries to join us in the effort. Tell me, Greg, what are the specific countries Kerry is talking about, Germany, France, Brazil? How many troops will they send to a President Kerry?
MEEKS: Well, he's talking about all of those countries that this president insulted. Remember, we forget about -- when we were going on. He called them old Europe and that we will do this all alone.
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: The same guys pulling the scam on oil-for-food? MEEKS: He's talking about individuals that we are going to be able to sit down because we live in a global world and we want to make sure that we work.
Why should America have to -- and American citizens, American taxpayers have to pay 90 percent of all of the costs in Iraq and take 90 percent of the coalition casualties? He's saying that we need to sit down and work, as the president promised he would before he went to war, before he rushed to war. And we're saying we're going to hold him to his word because he's lied to the American people. And we're going to hold him...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: We're going to have to...
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: ... grand jury. That was a lie.
BEGALA: We're going to have to ask all three of the congressmen here to actually hold their words for just a few minutes. We'll come back in just a second.
And when we do, J.D. and I will put our guests through the "Rapid Fire," where the action is even hotter than a jalapeno in the Arizona sunshine.
And then later, the man who wrote the movie "Dave" has some expert advice for the candidates as they try to connect with the audience tonight. Stay with us for the Hollywood perspective on tonight's debate in the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE from Arizona State University, home of the Sun Devils. It is "Rapid Fire" time, where the questions and answers come even faster than George W. Bush can reward a right- wing media company for airing an anti-Kerry smear.
Here for all the fun on campus, two members of Congress, New York Democrat Gregory Meeks and Arizona Republican Jeff Flake -- J.D.
HAYWORTH: And question one for Greg Meeks, Bush and Kerry are tied among Hispanics in Arizona. Can Kerry possibly win nationwide if he splits the Hispanic vote with George W. Bush?
MEEKS: Oh, when -- November 2, of course he will. He's going to win the overwhelming majority of Hispanic votes, not only across the nation, but even in your home backyard in Arizona.
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: We'll see about that.
MEEKS: He'll win Arizona.
BEGALA: Congressman Flake, the latest CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll says over 60 percent of Americans think President Bush is too beholden to corporate special interests. Can you help him out and name me one time George Bush has ever stood up to corporate interest?
(LAUGHTER)
FLAKE: Oh, no, he does all the time.
BEGALA: Just once.
FLAKE: OK. With steel tariffs, when he...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That was caving into the big steel companies.
FLAKE: No, no, when he came back and said that we ought to get rid of them. That was a good one. That was a good one.
HAYWORTH: G-man, most affirmative action clergymen side with President Bush on the issue of same-sex marriage. Isn't that controversy John Kerry votes in the African-American community?
MEEKS: Not at all. I've been here with members of clergy here. And they understand that we're not going to get caught in those wedge issues that the Bush administration is trying to lead us down. We understand the overall Supreme Court is a big issue for the African- American community. We understand that's No. 1 for us. And as well, they're talking about health care and jobs.
BEGALA: Congressman Flake, in the last debate, President Bush said that he had made some mistakes in appointments, but he wouldn't say who. Isn't it irresponsible to leave people in office who he believes are incompetent? Shouldn't he just clean and tell which are mistakes? I'll give him -- Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, those were bad appointments, right?
FLAKE: No, not at all. How in the world...
BEGALA: Which appointments did he make, did he mean when he said they were mistakes?
FLAKE: I have no idea. I have no idea. We'll leave that to him.
BEGALA: Shouldn't he level with us?
FLAKE: Hey, you can't -- particularly when they're in a position of power and when they're doing something, you can't undermine them that way. I think he was responsible in doing that.
BEGALA: You should fire them if they don't have confidence in them.
(CROSSTALK) FLAKE: Well, he will do that, I'm sure.
HAYWORTH: One last question for you, G-man. Did John Kerry lose the election when he equated terrorism as a nuisance to be compared to prostitution and gambling?
MEEKS: Not only did he not lose the election. He's won both debates. And just wait until tonight, when we go for the trifecta.
HAYWORTH: We're looking forward to it.
MEEKS: We're going to make sure when we're through tonight, when he's through tonight, the American people will see the clear difference between a pretender and a contender.
BEGALA: Gregory Meeks with an optimistic prediction for his man John Kerry.
FLAKE: I think that was a French judge that gave him the last one.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's Jeff Flake with the last word for the Republicans.
FLAKE: Thank you.
BEGALA: Congressman from Arizona.
Congressman Meeks from New York City.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Congressman Hayworth and I will be back in just a minute with this.
The campaign has really become quite a horse race. And so next, we'll have the director of the film "Seabiscuit" to give us some advice for the candidates as they come down the homestretch.
Stay with us.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
This campaign season has seen its share of high drama, tragedy, comedy, maybe even a little built of farce. So who better to give us advice for the big performance tonight than ace Hollywood director Gary Ross, who made the films "Big," "Dave," and most recently the Academy Award-nominated movie "Seabiscuit"? Gary, thanks for coming in the CROSSFIRE.
GARY ROSS, DIRECTOR: Good to see you. Thank you. Thanks for having me here.
HAYWORTH: Glad to have you here, Dave.
ROSS: I'm in the CROSSFIRE. Thank you.
HAYWORTH: Love "Big."
ROSS: Thank you.
HAYWORTH: And the remake of "Seabiscuit," interesting.
Now, some wags have said, if they were going to remake "E.T.," John Kerry would have the lead role because of his rather stoic, extraterrestrial nonresponsive answers. Does John Kerry -- what does he need to do?
ROSS: Well, I'm not sure that I agree with the E.T. analogy, but...
HAYWORTH: Sure, pal. You live in Hollywood. We understand you can't agree with that. That's OK.
ROSS: No, I'm not sure I understood it. Maybe if I understood it, I would have a chance to agree with it.
HAYWORTH: Maybe more Mr. Spockian, then. Wrong science fiction...
(CROSSTALK)
ROSS: I think he could humanize a little bit.
Look, I think, when you're dealing with middle-class issues, like he's going to deal with tonight, health care, jobs, the economy, things like that, you need to put a human face on that stuff. It isn't just being on the right side of the issue. People need to know that you care about their lives specifically. And I think, obviously, he needs to relate to individual votes in that way.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Now, Gary, how about for President Bush? He's watching, as he does every day. So look in the camera. Tell George W. Bush what he needs to do.
ROSS: Hi, Mr. President. How are you?
Well, I think he needs to relax a little bit and calm down. I think that it's hard to project resolute, stoic leadership when you're as amped as the president can be in these competitive situations. So I think that he would probably do himself well to chill out a little bit, take a deep breath. (CROSSTALK)
ROSS: I mean, if it was the movies, we would have three or four takes for them to get it out of their system. I think the president needs to take it down a notch or two.
BEGALA: Good advice for both the candidates. Thank you, Gary Ross, for joining us here on CROSSFIRE.
(CROSSTALK)
ROSS: Now, do I get to crowd-surf with you, Paul? The only reason I came to Arizona was, it looked so much fun.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: But we've got to go right now.
ROSS: OK.
BEGALA: For J.D. Hayworth, who is sitting in for the injured Bob Novak, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS' starts right now. Take it away, Wolf.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired October 13, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: the last presidential debate. Tonight, in Tempe, Arizona, it's the final face-off for George Bush and John Kerry before Election Day. The candidates duel over domestic issues. On the table, the economy, taxes jobs, health care. Can either man score a knockout? And which one will do the best job of swaying the all- important undecided voter?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the campus of Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona, Paul Begala and, sitting in on the right, J.D. Hayward.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: It is standing room only here at Arizona State University, with all the energy and electricity they normally reserve for PAC 10 football.
Keeping the football metaphors going, in the immortal words of Keith Jackson, tonight's debate is going to be a barn-burner. These two teams just flat don't like each other.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: And joining me today, filling in for our own Bob Novak, who is on the disabled list, former North Carolina State star football player, former sports anchorman, now the Republican congressman from this very district, my friend, J.D. Hayworth.
REP. J.D. HAYWORTH (R-AZ), GUEST HOST: Welcome to the 5th Congressional District of Arizona, Paul, and to ASU for CROSSFIRE.
Let me just tell you this, pal. For purposes of full disclosure, I was the biggest washout in Wolfpack history. Recruited as right tackle, I ended up left out. Just can ask Coach Amato about that.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, you're good to fill in for Novak. We appreciate you hosting us here in your district as well, J.D.
HAYWORTH: Thank you.
BEGALA: Well, let's begin, as we always do, with the best little briefing in television, the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
HAYWORTH: Grisly new evidence has been found in Iraq that shows just why Saddam Hussein had to be removed from power. U.S. forces found a mass grave site in northwestern Iraq filled with the bodies of men, women and children, what officials believe are Kurdish victims slaughtered by Saddam's regime. Two grave trenches have been dug up thus far. There could be as many as a dozen in the same area. Some of the victims were pregnant. One child still had a ball in his hand.
One U.S. official called the gruesome site -- quote -- "a perfect place for execution" -- end quote. It's also a perfect demonstration of why the president was right to take action against Saddam when he did.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, but that wasn't the rationale the president gave us, J.D. When Saddam was murdering the Kurds, Ronald Reagan was sending him supplies and Donald Rumsfeld was going over there to kiss his ring. The president said that Saddam was a threat to us. And he wasn't. And he misled us into that war. And that's the issue in the election.
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: No, no. Saddam was a threat, and it's great that Saddam is gone and in the slammer, Paul.
BEGALA: Well, it's great that he's gone, but he was never a threat to America.
HAYWORTH: Oh, you're in a dream world, pal.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: The president misled us...
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: That's not true. That's not misleading. That's taking good, positive action.
BEGALA: Tell that to the 138,000 guys we sent over there.
HAYWORTH: We are. That's why the election will be won by George W. Bush.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Sweating in the heat. It's even hotter than your district here in Tempe.
Well, hopefully, debate moderator Bob Schieffer will ask President Bush tonight about his treasury secretary's comments this week, that the 820,000 jobs we have lost under President Bush are nothing but a myth. The Bush administration's own Department of Labor reports that on the day that Mr. Bush took office, there were 132,390,000 jobs in the economy, today, just 131,570,000. You do the math. It's no myth. We have lost 821,000 jobs since George W. Bush became president.
Mr. Snow also said that the Clinton budget surplus -- quote -- "never existed" -- unquote. Oh? According to the president's own Office of Management and Budget, the 10-year budget surplus President Clinton left to President Bush was $5.6 trillion. Let's hope that tonight the president faces reality, and the reality is, he inherited strong job growth and a record surplus, and he blew them both, which surprised me, because I thought, if George W. Bush would be good at anything, it would be at inheriting things.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
HAYWORTH: Mighty cheeky, Paul. But it flies in the face of reality.
And here's the reality. In the last eight months, almost two million jobs created. And the day George W. Bush took office, sad to say this, the nation was headed into a recession. But the positive actions of George W. Bush and this administration has got more people back to work.
(BELL RINGING)
HAYWORTH: As I said, close to two million jobs.
BEGALA: Yes, it's not a myth; 800,000 people who used to have jobs now don't.
HAYWORTH: And they're going to get back to work as long as we can...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Bush should be held accountable for that.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: As soon as George Bush loses his job, they'll get theirs back.
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
HAYWORTH: Ah, very cheeky. Oh, no, pal. He's not going to lose his job. And here's why, Paul, as John Edwards, just this week, uttered perhaps the most outrageous statement of the entire campaign.
Senator Edwards said -- quote -- "When John Kerry is president, people like Christopher Reeve are going to walk, get up out of that wheelchair and walk again" -- close quote. Edwards gave a millions of infirm Americans false hope by claiming that stem cell cures are just around the corner. The fact is, there's no guarantee that stem cell research will ever lead to the cures Kerry and Edwards irresponsibly tell us are near.
For Kerry and Edwards to give false hope in a scheme to win votes is just about as sleazy as it gets, even for you, Paul.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: So, is it sleazy for Nancy Reagan, who says the same thing as John Edwards?
HAYWORTH: That's not what she said.
BEGALA: Oh, sure she does. And for Ron Reagan Jr.?
HAYWORTH: And she didn't get up in the campaign trail and try to promise people, make a false promise about medical research.
BEGALA: Her son did. Ronald Reagan's son, Ron Reagan Jr., gave one of the best speeches at the Democratic Convention about how we should follow the science, not the politician, not John Edwards, who is a politician, not George Bush, a politician, just follow the science.
HAYWORTH: If you follow the sound science, then you know it's adult stem cell research that has made the difference.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's not what the docs say, though. Why don't we just follow the docs?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Look, George W. Bush is following Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson and the kook right.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Because he needs their votes for the election.
(BELL RINGING)
HAYWORTH: You know, it's always great, Paul. We can count on you for sloganeering instead of solutions.
BEGALA: Solutions are -- research stem cells so that people...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... who have terrible diseases can be cured.
HAYWORTH: Seventy lines of stem cell research
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Seventy lines of garbage.
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: Garbage? Wow. You heard another whacked-out statement.
BEGALA: Sinclair Ventures, which owns the TV stations airing an anti-Kerry hate film, is a major investor in a company called Jadoo Power Systems. On September 28, Jadoo was awarded a contract by the Bush administration to develop power systems for the U.S. Special Operations Command. Now, Sinclair is barely profitable and badly burdened by debt. Some of its major stockholders are upset over Sinclair's decision to run the right-wing propaganda.
But Sinclair has an awful lot riding on this election, first because it is an investor in this defense contractor that just got a contract from Mr. Bush, second, because it wants the federal government to allow Sinclair to own two or more stations in the same market.
Look, I've got an idea. After the anti-Kerry smear, Sinclair should simply air not all of Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11." That would be fair, and we don't ever expect right-wing thugs to be air, so just air the seven minutes where President Bush is told that America is under attack and yet responded by just sitting there reading "The Pet Goat" to a room full of second-graders. That would be the best response possible.
HAYWORTH: You know, Paul, I know your advice would be bring them into the Lincoln Bedroom for an overnight.
And the other thing, this cheap shot about the president not alarming second-graders, maybe you should have been like John Kerry, just standing up gazing into the sky after staying 40 full minutes...
(CROSSTALK)
(BELL RINGING)
HAYWORTH: ... on Capitol Hill.
BEGALA: He's the president of the United States and he's reading a storybook to children?
HAYWORTH: And he swung into action.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, he didn't. He peed his pants and he hid in the side of a mountain. He was a total coward on 9/11, J.D.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: We've got the tape. Let's play the tape, Sinclair. (CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: These guys are desperate, folks.
BEGALA: Play the tape.
HAYWORTH: Well, John Kerry and George Bush get one more chance to go face to face right tonight here in Tempe. What does each man have to do to seize the big mo?
BEGALA: We'll preview the debate just ahead.
And then later, he has scripted Tom Hanks and Reese Witherspoon. What does film director Gary Ross have for the two candidates as they head into the performance of their lives?
Stay with us.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE from the campus of Arizona State, site of tonight's presidential debate.
John Kerry stayed in last night and watched his beloved Red Sox lose to the Yankees. So he's probably a little angry, be spoiling for a fight tonight. President Bush, meanwhile, will have to work hard to stay focused on the debate and not let his mind drift over to the fact that the rival Houston Astros are in the championship series for the NL and not his beloved Texas Rangers from the American League.
Today, in the CROSSFIRE to discuss the tempest in Tempe, New York Democratic Congressman Gregory Meeks and one of J.D. Hayworth's colleagues in the Arizona congressional delegation, Republican Congressman Jeff Flake.
Gentlemen, thank you very much.
REP. JEFF FLAKE (R), ARIZONA: Thanks for having us.
HAYWORTH: Glad to have you here.
And, Greg, welcome to Arizona.
The first question for you two.
Sir, you will remember that John Kerry looked into the camera last Friday night and he said to the American people, I will not raise your taxes, even though he's voted at least 98 times during his Senate career to increase taxes. Why should the American people believe Senator Kerry, Greg?
REP. GREGORY MEEKS (D), NEW YORK: Because of the overwhelming number of times that he's voted to reduce taxes. He's the first to want to balance the budget to make sure that the government does not spend more than it's taking in.
And he will, you know, he broke with his party to do that. And he will continue to do that. What he says is that the 2 percent of Americans, those that make -- those that have -- we're going to make sure that they go back to their time, but middle-class and lower -- and poor people, they will not have to pay more taxes...
HAYWORTH: Oh, but he and his spouse earned $5.6 million last year and only paid a 12 percent tax rate. I guess some folks are more equal than others.
BEGALA: That's because of the tax rate that J.D. and Jeff Flake both
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: He went out and took advantage of that. And that's very interesting.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Bush has been very good to the very rich.
HAYWORTH: No, no, he used his lawyers to find the loopholes. It's very curious to see what happens, the kind of double-talk we get, the reason why we're going to victorious...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Congressman Flake, let me ask you about a different millionaire. That is John Snow. He's the president's secretary of the treasury. He said a curious thing. He said that the 820,000 Americans who lost their jobs under George W. Bush, that that's just a myth.
Now, do you want to look in the camera and tell those families, those moms and dads who can't put food on the table for their children, that their pain is just a myth? Or do you actually live in the real world and deal with reality and understand that we're losing jobs in America under George Bush?
FLAKE: What I'll say is that the job picture is improving. The economy is improving. And a big driver in that is the tax cuts that we've received.
Who in the world thinks that we would be better off had we left taxes where they were and that we'd be better off, the economy would be humming along better than it is now if we had higher taxes? I don't know how anybody can state into the camera and say that.
BEGALA: Let me ask just you a fundamental question. Let me just ask you. I know your district is here in Arizona.
FLAKE: Yes. BEGALA: It's not in Fantasy Island. So do we have more Americans working today or fewer Americans working today than the day George Bush took office?
FLAKE: Well, if you look at Arizona, if you look at...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: In America.
FLAKE: At East Valley -- I don't know what the national picture is.
BEGALA: Really?
FLAKE: All I know is we've had...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Republicans are this out of touch with the pain that they have wreaked on...
(CROSSTALK)
FLAKE: We have had 9/11. We've had a war. We've had a lot of things.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... excuses.
(CROSSTALK)
FLAKE: And, also, also, now, let's get back to the spending side.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: What about jobs?
FLAKE: Hey, if you look at -- no, jobs. It all goes to that. When the government takes more of your money and spends it, that's less money you have as a small businessman.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Was the budget balanced when the Democrats were in and is it now in deficit today?
(CROSSTALK)
FLAKE: When Democrats ran congress?
(LAUGHTER)
FLAKE: That's how Congress spends. And Congress is spending too much now. You can't blame all that on the president. But...
HAYWORTH: And speaking of Congress...
FLAKE: When you look at every time we propose something, the Democrats propose something bigger in terms of spending.
HAYWORTH: And speaking of something bigger from the Democrats for my friend Greg, you know, LBJ had a credibility gap. John Kerry has a credible canyon. How can Americans believe Senator Kerry on education? He says over and over that President Bush has cut funds for education, but he knows that overall funding for schools is up from $42 billion to $57 billion during the Bush administration.
Funds to encourage reading are up 43 percent. Teacher quality grants are up 39 percent. Special ed grants are up 75 percent. And Pell Grants for college students have increased 47 percent.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
HAYWORTH: Why is Kerry saying education is headed downward?
MEEKS: First off, J.D., you're right. LBJ had a credibility problem. His credibility problem was because of the Vietnam War. He lied to the American people. He didn't run for reelection because of that.
George Bush has a credibility problem, too. Some of it is because of the Iraqi war.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
MEEKS: He should have taken the advice of LBJ. He shouldn't be running for reelection.
HAYWORTH: So no answer on education. That's interesting, very revealing.
(CROSSTALK)
MEEKS: We know that President Bush talks about leaving no child behind. But yet he left all of the resources so that we could force it behind.
And so the education -- if you look at education, it is not moving forward under George Bush. He has these slogans, but he does not keep his word. He has a huge credibility gap with the people.
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: Now, I know math isn't something we don't study real well on Capitol Hill, but sounds to me like $57 billion is a lot bigger than $42 billion. That's an increase of $13 billion. Only in Washington would you call an increase a cut. That's kind of hocus pocus.
(CROSSTALK) MEEKS: Every day, you know what happens with just what we do? We get increases because of the cost of living. And you talked about moving on every year. It costs more money.
Well, it's the same thing with education. There's more children that are now enrolled in school this year than were last year. So it costs more money. And we didn't keep up with inflation.
(CROSSTALK)
MEEKS: And that $13 billion doesn't keep up with the inflation.
BEGALA: I'm sorry to interrupt. Let me come back to another issue, actually, that I hope comes up tonight, hasn't been discussed much in the campaign. And that is health care.
FLAKE: Right.
BEGALA: Now, four years ago, George W. Bush, who didn't have to defend his record, made a promise in the debates four years ago. Let me play that promise for you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. GEORGE W. BUSH (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I've got a plan to do something about that. It's to make health care affordable and available.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: To make health care affordable and available, that was his promise. Four years later, premiums are up 58 percent. Drug company profits are up 39 percent. And five million more Americans who had health insurance before Bush took office have lost their health insurance under Bush. He didn't keep that promise, did he, Congressman?
FLAKE: He has done a lot with health care.
BEGALA: Yes, he sure has.
FLAKE: Health savings accounts are going to revolutionize health care. We've got to allow the market to contain costs and improve quickly, instead of the Kerry plan, which is just let government take it over. And that's all it is.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's actually not Kerry's plan.
FLAKE: No, no, no, no, it is. Kerry is going to talk about, we're going to take all the uninsured. We're going to let government have catastrophic policy or whatever. That's going to health care. No how he wants to slice it, he had wants government to have a much bigger role. George Bush wants the market to actually help out.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It's interesting that you all want to shift the debate -- actually, a couple of reporters called the Lewin Group, which is a health care consulting firm that the president cites, they said the president is misleading about this, that Kerry's plan is not at all a government takeover.
But why don't you defend the Bush record? He promised he would do something to control costs and make health care affordable. Costs are through the roof. And millions of Americans are out there with no health insurance.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He's had four years. Why should we give him four more?
FLAKE: He can't do it on his own. The Congress has to help him as well.
BEGALA: No, he can't do it with a Republican Congress either.
FLAKE: Hey, you have to do tort reform. You have to do a number of things that he hasn't been able to get through the Congress. He has tried.
(CROSSTALK)
FLAKE: But health savings accounts have been very effective.
BEGALA: We should reelect him because he's been such a failure.
FLAKE: Hey, when you look at the flip side here and you look at government-controlled health care, that's what you've got to consider.
And when John Kerry stands and says, I'm going to give you free health care, who in the world is going to believe that? There's no such thing as a free lunch. We all know that.
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: That's right.
Here it is. Greg, you're a member of the International Relations Committee. Here's a question for you. John Kerry's plan for Iraq assumes he'll be able to convince other countries to join us in the effort. Tell me, Greg, what are the specific countries Kerry is talking about, Germany, France, Brazil? How many troops will they send to a President Kerry?
MEEKS: Well, he's talking about all of those countries that this president insulted. Remember, we forget about -- when we were going on. He called them old Europe and that we will do this all alone.
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: The same guys pulling the scam on oil-for-food? MEEKS: He's talking about individuals that we are going to be able to sit down because we live in a global world and we want to make sure that we work.
Why should America have to -- and American citizens, American taxpayers have to pay 90 percent of all of the costs in Iraq and take 90 percent of the coalition casualties? He's saying that we need to sit down and work, as the president promised he would before he went to war, before he rushed to war. And we're saying we're going to hold him to his word because he's lied to the American people. And we're going to hold him...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: We're going to have to...
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: ... grand jury. That was a lie.
BEGALA: We're going to have to ask all three of the congressmen here to actually hold their words for just a few minutes. We'll come back in just a second.
And when we do, J.D. and I will put our guests through the "Rapid Fire," where the action is even hotter than a jalapeno in the Arizona sunshine.
And then later, the man who wrote the movie "Dave" has some expert advice for the candidates as they try to connect with the audience tonight. Stay with us for the Hollywood perspective on tonight's debate in the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE from Arizona State University, home of the Sun Devils. It is "Rapid Fire" time, where the questions and answers come even faster than George W. Bush can reward a right- wing media company for airing an anti-Kerry smear.
Here for all the fun on campus, two members of Congress, New York Democrat Gregory Meeks and Arizona Republican Jeff Flake -- J.D.
HAYWORTH: And question one for Greg Meeks, Bush and Kerry are tied among Hispanics in Arizona. Can Kerry possibly win nationwide if he splits the Hispanic vote with George W. Bush?
MEEKS: Oh, when -- November 2, of course he will. He's going to win the overwhelming majority of Hispanic votes, not only across the nation, but even in your home backyard in Arizona.
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: We'll see about that.
MEEKS: He'll win Arizona.
BEGALA: Congressman Flake, the latest CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll says over 60 percent of Americans think President Bush is too beholden to corporate special interests. Can you help him out and name me one time George Bush has ever stood up to corporate interest?
(LAUGHTER)
FLAKE: Oh, no, he does all the time.
BEGALA: Just once.
FLAKE: OK. With steel tariffs, when he...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That was caving into the big steel companies.
FLAKE: No, no, when he came back and said that we ought to get rid of them. That was a good one. That was a good one.
HAYWORTH: G-man, most affirmative action clergymen side with President Bush on the issue of same-sex marriage. Isn't that controversy John Kerry votes in the African-American community?
MEEKS: Not at all. I've been here with members of clergy here. And they understand that we're not going to get caught in those wedge issues that the Bush administration is trying to lead us down. We understand the overall Supreme Court is a big issue for the African- American community. We understand that's No. 1 for us. And as well, they're talking about health care and jobs.
BEGALA: Congressman Flake, in the last debate, President Bush said that he had made some mistakes in appointments, but he wouldn't say who. Isn't it irresponsible to leave people in office who he believes are incompetent? Shouldn't he just clean and tell which are mistakes? I'll give him -- Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, those were bad appointments, right?
FLAKE: No, not at all. How in the world...
BEGALA: Which appointments did he make, did he mean when he said they were mistakes?
FLAKE: I have no idea. I have no idea. We'll leave that to him.
BEGALA: Shouldn't he level with us?
FLAKE: Hey, you can't -- particularly when they're in a position of power and when they're doing something, you can't undermine them that way. I think he was responsible in doing that.
BEGALA: You should fire them if they don't have confidence in them.
(CROSSTALK) FLAKE: Well, he will do that, I'm sure.
HAYWORTH: One last question for you, G-man. Did John Kerry lose the election when he equated terrorism as a nuisance to be compared to prostitution and gambling?
MEEKS: Not only did he not lose the election. He's won both debates. And just wait until tonight, when we go for the trifecta.
HAYWORTH: We're looking forward to it.
MEEKS: We're going to make sure when we're through tonight, when he's through tonight, the American people will see the clear difference between a pretender and a contender.
BEGALA: Gregory Meeks with an optimistic prediction for his man John Kerry.
FLAKE: I think that was a French judge that gave him the last one.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's Jeff Flake with the last word for the Republicans.
FLAKE: Thank you.
BEGALA: Congressman from Arizona.
Congressman Meeks from New York City.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Congressman Hayworth and I will be back in just a minute with this.
The campaign has really become quite a horse race. And so next, we'll have the director of the film "Seabiscuit" to give us some advice for the candidates as they come down the homestretch.
Stay with us.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
This campaign season has seen its share of high drama, tragedy, comedy, maybe even a little built of farce. So who better to give us advice for the big performance tonight than ace Hollywood director Gary Ross, who made the films "Big," "Dave," and most recently the Academy Award-nominated movie "Seabiscuit"? Gary, thanks for coming in the CROSSFIRE.
GARY ROSS, DIRECTOR: Good to see you. Thank you. Thanks for having me here.
HAYWORTH: Glad to have you here, Dave.
ROSS: I'm in the CROSSFIRE. Thank you.
HAYWORTH: Love "Big."
ROSS: Thank you.
HAYWORTH: And the remake of "Seabiscuit," interesting.
Now, some wags have said, if they were going to remake "E.T.," John Kerry would have the lead role because of his rather stoic, extraterrestrial nonresponsive answers. Does John Kerry -- what does he need to do?
ROSS: Well, I'm not sure that I agree with the E.T. analogy, but...
HAYWORTH: Sure, pal. You live in Hollywood. We understand you can't agree with that. That's OK.
ROSS: No, I'm not sure I understood it. Maybe if I understood it, I would have a chance to agree with it.
HAYWORTH: Maybe more Mr. Spockian, then. Wrong science fiction...
(CROSSTALK)
ROSS: I think he could humanize a little bit.
Look, I think, when you're dealing with middle-class issues, like he's going to deal with tonight, health care, jobs, the economy, things like that, you need to put a human face on that stuff. It isn't just being on the right side of the issue. People need to know that you care about their lives specifically. And I think, obviously, he needs to relate to individual votes in that way.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Now, Gary, how about for President Bush? He's watching, as he does every day. So look in the camera. Tell George W. Bush what he needs to do.
ROSS: Hi, Mr. President. How are you?
Well, I think he needs to relax a little bit and calm down. I think that it's hard to project resolute, stoic leadership when you're as amped as the president can be in these competitive situations. So I think that he would probably do himself well to chill out a little bit, take a deep breath. (CROSSTALK)
ROSS: I mean, if it was the movies, we would have three or four takes for them to get it out of their system. I think the president needs to take it down a notch or two.
BEGALA: Good advice for both the candidates. Thank you, Gary Ross, for joining us here on CROSSFIRE.
(CROSSTALK)
ROSS: Now, do I get to crowd-surf with you, Paul? The only reason I came to Arizona was, it looked so much fun.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: But we've got to go right now.
ROSS: OK.
BEGALA: For J.D. Hayworth, who is sitting in for the injured Bob Novak, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS' starts right now. Take it away, Wolf.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
