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CNN Crossfire
Justice Department Shakeup
Aired November 10, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: A controversial Cabinet member steps down. Attorney General John Ashcroft won high praise and harsh criticism for his work in the Bush administration.
Alberto Gonzales takes over at the Justice Department. Will the next attorney general continue Ashcroft's hard line on the Patriot Act and social issues?
Other members of the Bush team are stepping down or said to be considering it. Who will make up the roster of the new Bush team?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and, sitting in on the right, Joe Watkins.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
In the first shakeup of the Bush Cabinet, Commerce Secretary Don Evans and Attorney General John Ashcroft are stepping down. The president intends to nominate White House counsel Alberto Gonzales to replace Attorney General Ashcroft. But already both the left and some on the right are criticizing the former Texas Supreme Court justice.
We will debate Mr. Ashcroft and his successor today in the CROSSFIRE.
And joining me today on the right, returning CROSSFIRE favorite, Republican strategist, radio talk show host Joe Watkins.
Joe, welcome back.
(APPLAUSE)
JOE WATKINS, GUEST HOST: Thanks. Good to be back. Great to be back.
BEGALA: Bob Novak and Tucker Carlson, you should know, are in deep mourning over the departure of Attorney General Ashcroft. But Joe was good enough to fill in. And we will begin today, as we always do, with the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
WATKINS: Attorney General John Ashcroft and Commerce Secretary Don Evans won't stay for a second Bush term.
Evans, a close friend of the president, ran the campaign that brought him to office four years ago and promoted tax cuts that gave money back to the middle class and small businesses. And as one of the leading figures in the fight against terrorism, Ashcroft deserved the praise that he got from the White House, which said he worked to make the U.S. safer.
After all, violent crime in the U.S. is at a 30-year low. Ashcroft also drew a lot of heat over the Patriot Act. But keep these things in mind. The act passed in Congress with overwhelming support from both parties, and there hasn't been another attack in the U.S. since September 11.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, I don't know how many of our audience saw Ashcroft's announcement. I was moved when he declared, I am a gay American. And he...
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: No, that was Jim McGreevey in New Jersey. I...
WATKINS: That was the other side of the aisle.
BEGALA: That's sort of a fantasy of mine.
I'm going to miss Attorney General Ashcroft. So I'm going to hit him with everything I have got for the next 30 minutes. I may hold my fire for most of it, but I will say, crime dropped under President Clinton and Janet Reno. It hasn't go much up, but murder is up.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Murder is up.
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: ... John Ashcroft.
BEGALA: It's not true.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It dropped -- it dropped like this under Clinton and Reno, and it stayed steady. Congratulations, Mr. President. You haven't made it that much worse, but murder is actually slightly up, only slightly, but slightly up under Attorney General Ashcroft. So... WATKINS: Thanks to John Ashcroft.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: It's up a little bit.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Murder is up.
Anyway, American troops today found hostage slaughterhouses where hostages have been beheaded in Falluja. But they have not yet captured the top terrorist leaders who have been doing the beheading. President Bush postponed the assault on Falluja until after the election, which has apparently allowed top terrorists to escape.
American military officials in Iraq tell today's "New York Times" insurgent leaders fled Falluja before the invasion and are now coordinating attacks throughout the rest of Iraq. Abu Musab al Zarqawi, the pig who personally beheaded some of those hostages, has almost certainly escaped, military officials say. A year ago, there were 20 to 25 attacks per day on our troops. A month ago, it was 80 attacks today. And now, there are 130 attacks every day against American troops.
More Americans are dying 18 months after the president declared mission accomplished and said that major combat operations were over.
WATKINS: Well, Paul, the other side of the story is this.
I mean, our troops are doing a great job. We now have 70 percent of Falluja under U.S. control. That's a good, good statistic.
(APPLAUSE)
WATKINS: We've got the insurgents on the run. Zarqawi and these guys, they're in caves. They're fleeing the U.S. troops. Free elections are on the way come January. This is good news for the American people and for the Iraqi people.
BEGALA: They may not have fled if the president had the courage to attack when he needed to, instead of putting it off until after the election.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Maybe they wouldn't have fled.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Maybe they would be dead, which would be a hell of a lot better.
WATKINS: Well, the Democrats have decided that moral values are a good thing after all. Charlie Rangel, New York congressman and frequent CROSSFIRE guest, says, Democrats are actually the party of moral values.
He promises we'll hear a lot from Democrats on moral values over the next two years. That idea got support from former President Bill Clinton, who told a college crowd that voters thought Republican candidates did a better job of understanding the moral issues that are important to people. He's right.
Exit polls show that an overwhelming majority of those whose vote was based on moral issues, such as the right to life, voted for Bush. I actually agree that no party has the monopoly on moral values. The most important thing now, the most pressing thing now, is for both parties to work to bring Americans together.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, I agree with that part. No party has a monopoly on moral values. And I'm always surprised by my friends...
WATKINS: But we do a much better job of showing people that we care.
BEGALA: Of talking about values. Democrats actually live values. That's the only difference.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
WATKINS: I don't think so. I don't think so.
BEGALA: Republicans like to lecture and hector the rest of us.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm from red state America. And I'm so tired of my friends and relatives in red state America thinking that they're morally superior to people in blue state America, because they're not.
(APPLAUSE)
WATKINS: Absolutely -- well, none of us are morally superior to anybody else.
I believe, as a Christian person, that I've been forgiven. That's a wonderful thing. But Republicans have done a much better job about fighting for the rights of those who can't fight for themselves, like the unborn.
(BELL RINGING)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: How? How? Oh, like poor people?
WATKINS: Like the unborn.
BEGALA: Jesus' whole mission was about the poor.
WATKINS: Well, Republicans are about helping the poor to learn how to...
BEGALA: They created more of them. They like them so much, they created more of them.
(APPLAUSE)
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, we'll come back to this, because, actually, this is what I want to talk about, too.
Joe is right. Moral issues motivated about one out of every four voters last week. And the Fifth Commandment says, honor thy father and thy mother. That's a moral issue, isn't it? Well, let's see if our Republican friends are living by that.
Under President Bush, giant greedy corporations are suing their retired employees to break their contract and cancel their health insurance. "The Wall Street Journal" reports today that this deeply immoral practice has exploded during the Bush era. Defenseless retirees, after a lifetime of service to the company, get shafted. Promises get broken. Health care gets canceled just when seniors need it most.
So has our pious president spoken out against this sinful act? Is he calling for legislation to punish these dirtbag corporations? Don't hold your breath. Apparently, Mr. Bush is too busy cashing campaign checks from the corporations to worry very much about whether they are honoring our mothers and our fathers. So, are these the values you voted for, red staters? I don't think so.
WATKINS: Well, the president has been the leader in terms of putting corporate criminals on notice that, if you commit corporate crimes, you're going to jail.
BEGALA: What? What?
WATKINS: Let's talking about the Fifth Commandment.
BEGALA: What?
WATKINS: Absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He has been the biggest corporate...
WATKINS: Absolutely not. Absolutely not.
BEGALA: I'm trying to think of a polite way to say it, butler, shall we say, to the big corporations.
WATKINS: Absolutely not. Let's talk about the Fifth Commandment.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: When has he ever took them on? Name one time. He wanted to put arsenic in our water. He wanted to put more lead in the air.
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: Absolutely not.
If you want to talk about father and mother, though, how can you honor your father and mother unless father and mother are a man and a woman?
(APPLAUSE)
WATKINS: The president said that marriage is between a man and a woman. You can't honor your mother and father unless you're a man and a woman.
BEGALA: Well, how about one man, one woman, one time? Every Republican I know has been divorced three times and they're lecturing me.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: All right.
President Bush will start his second term with a few changes in his Cabinet. As John Ashcroft sings his swan song, President Bush turns to someone who, unlike Ashcroft, never lost an election to a dead guy.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: And one John Kerry supporter is so angry about his candidate's loss, he wants to get physical. We will tell you what he's got on his mind, and you really won't believe this, later in the CROSSFIRE.
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to CROSSFIRE at the George Washington University, call 202-994-8CNN or visit our Web site. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Less than an hour ago, President Bush announced his intention to nominate White House counsel Alberto Gonzales to replace John Ashcroft as America's attorney general. Gonzales, who served as counsel to Governor Bush in Texas before becoming White House counsel to President Bush in Washington, has already taken flak from liberals who don't like his legal opinions on issues like detainees in Guantanamo Bay and from some conservatives who accuse the longtime Bush loyalist as perhaps having very well hidden liberal leanings.
In the CROSSFIRE to debate the Ashcroft legacy and the Gonzales nomination, former Ashcroft aide and Republican strategist Barbara Comstock, and Peter Rubin. He's a professor of law at Georgetown University and the founder of the American Constitution Society.
Good to see you both.
(APPLAUSE)
PETER RUBIN, LAW PROFESSOR, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Nice to be here.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Barbara, your man Ashcroft, I'm going to miss him. I am going to miss him.
BARBARA COMSTOCK, FORMER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON: I know you are.
BEGALA: I knew he was going to get fired right after the election. I just didn't know it would work out this way. So let's...
COMSTOCK: I thought you were going to hire him.
BEGALA: Let's begin -- I would love to, believe me.
Let's begin by looking at the Ashcroft record on terror, the most important issue. He cited medical reasons. I understand he broke his arm patting himself on the back in his resignation letter.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
COMSTOCK: No, Paul, as you know, because -- he had some very serious surgery last year.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He did. And we acknowledge that. And we did prayed for him at that moment.
COMSTOCK: I lost a father-in-law to that. So it's a serious illness.
BEGALA: But I thought his letter was self-aggrandizing in congratulating himself for essentially the war on terror. It's all over now.
So, let's take a look at what the 9/11 Commission actually said about Mr. Ashcroft's tenure. This is quoting from CNN's report on the 9/11 Commission: "Former acting FBI Director Thomas Pickard said Ashcroft dismissed warnings of terrorist threats during the summer of 2001 and rejected appeals for additional counterterrorism funds. Pickard said in late June and through July, he met with Attorney General Ashcroft once a week, the 9/11 Commission report says. He told us that though he initially briefed the attorney general regarding these threats, after two such briefings, the attorney general told him he didn't want to hear this information anymore.
"FBI counterterrorism chief Dale Watson told the 9/11 Commission he almost fell out of his chair when Ashcroft outlined his budget priorities in May 2001 because the list made no mention of counterterrorism."
The man was asleep at the switch, wasn't he?
COMSTOCK: Not at all, Paul, because, in fact, as you know, from the testimony that the attorney general gave this spring, he said that did not occur. And Larry Thompson, who is his deputy, also concurred in that.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Why didn't he prosecute them for perjury, then? He's the attorney general. If they were lying under oath to an organ of the United States government, that's perjury. Shouldn't he have prosecuted them?
COMSTOCK: In May of 2001, he also testified that terrorism was his top priority.
Now, Janet Reno -- if you want to -- I will be happy to compare the Ashcroft and now the Gonzales record against eight years of Janet Reno, when she was out opening day-care centers. The attorney general...
(APPLAUSE)
COMSTOCK: ... unlike you and your buddies, did not think that terrorism was a nuisance. He went after it. He passed the Patriot Act; 98...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: This is after 9/11. I'm talking about before 9/11.
COMSTOCK: Before 9/11, he said that that was his priority.
BEGALA: In sworn testimony, his own deputies say he ignored it, but now you're saying that they were lying?
(CROSSTALK)
COMSTOCK: He worked to change Janet Reno's budget priorities, which didn't have terrorism as a priority.
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: Peter, you're up.
Now, I feel sorry for Paul, only because, only because, now that John Ashcroft is gone, who else will the Democrats have to kick around?
RUBIN: Well, I think the president is always responsible for his appointees, and John Ashcroft was one, and he was a dismal failure as an attorney general.
(APPLAUSE)
WATKINS: Well, we haven't had another attack, Peter, since September 11.
RUBIN: It's true, but John Ashcroft had nothing to do with that. He rounded up 5,000 people.
WATKINS: Absolutely. Absolutely.
RUBIN: He rounded up 5,000 people and said they were suspected terrorists.
WATKINS: Three hundred and ninety-four arrests.
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: What, 194 convictions.
RUBIN: Three prosecutions for terrorism and one conviction.
WATKINS: Absolutely not. Absolutely not, 194 convictions.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: I want to see the convictions.
There's been one terrorist conviction under John Ashcroft; 500 people were deported from the United States.
COMSTOCK: Well, I think it depends on what you mean by terrorists.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: But those are misses. Those are misses and not hits.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: It's not up to the attorney general to stop attacks on the United States. That's the military, I hope.
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: No, but he strengthened the FBI surveillance, right?
(CROSSTALK) WATKINS: The bad guy don't wear uniforms these days saying,I'm a terrorist.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Go ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: He has the worst record on civil liberties of any attorney general in American history, perhaps. And when you say...
(APPLAUSE)
RUBIN: And when you say...
(APPLAUSE)
RUBIN: And when you say that he strengthened surveillance, he absolutely did. There are searches without...
WATKINS: And thank God for it.
RUBIN: There are searches without suspicion of innocent Americans now in the United States in a way there haven't been before.
(CROSSTALK)
COMSTOCK: ... with a judge. It has to have a judge.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: No, it doesn't have to have a judge.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: We know that -- we know that -- we know that Internet use can now be scrutinized under an expansion of the powers.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: Under an expansion of the powers.
COMSTOCK: Good. Keep campaigning on this. Oppose the Patriot Act.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: I'm not running a campaign. I'm a law professor, Barbara.
BEGALA: The worst -- Professor Rubin says the worst attorney general on civil liberties in American history, even worse than Palmer in World War I, who was running around arresting people for no reason?
COMSTOCK: And that's ridiculous. The Patriot Act has specific provisions in there to protect civil liberties. We broke up terrorist cells all around the country. I don't know what you think is a terrorist is. But when you have people who are over there training and come back here, for example, in Albany, there were people -- there were cells in Oregon that were broken up.
RUBIN: Tell me about the convictions, Barbara. How many convictions for terrorism?
(CROSSTALK)
COMSTOCK: They pled guilty. They pled guilty. Yes.
RUBIN: How many? How many? How many?
(CROSSTALK)
COMSTOCK: There are dozens.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: Dozens of convictions?
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: The audience is going to have to look it up.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: No, no, no. The audience is going to have to look it up.
COMSTOCK: I'll give you a place to look it up, LifeandLiberty.gov. It has dozens and dozens of convictions, because we broke...
RUBIN: Or you can look at a nonpartisan Web site and discover that...
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: ... that there have been three prosecutions and one conviction, Barbara, on top of which, his Justice Department...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: One at a time.
RUBIN: His Justice Department for the time in American history defended detaining American citizens arrested in the U.S. without charges, indefinitely.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: And the Supreme Court, including Justice Scalia, struck it down.
(CROSSTALK)
COMSTOCK: No. They upheld the authority of the president.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: I've litigated before the Supreme Court. And I'm dead certain that their opinion said...
WATKINS: These people are terrorists, man. The terrorists are not walking around, Peter, with a little -- they aren't walking around with a little T-shirt saying, I'm a terrorist.
(APPLAUSE)
RUBIN: How do you know they're terrorists?
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: Come on, man. It's all about keeping the American people safe.
RUBIN: The grave terrorist Hamdi.
WATKINS: We lost thousands of people in New York on September 11.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: Believe me, you don't have to tell me.
WATKINS: I know because I had friends that died.
RUBIN: You don't have to tell me about the gravity of September 11.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: You're seeing why the Democrats lost. They don't think the people here who are doing terrorist financing, who are conducting -- who are going over and training, then come back here and have cells, they don't think those are terrorists. That's the reason that...
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: Those people haven't been convicted, Barbara. You're just making it up.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: But Yaser Hamdi, Yaser Hamdi, Yaser Hamdi, who this Justice Department told the Supreme Court was a grave threat to the United States, as soon as the Supreme Court, as soon as they ordered a hearing, he was released.
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: Peter, let me ask you a question about Gonzales.
RUBIN: Yes.
WATKINS: Alberto Gonzales is going to succeed John Ashcroft.
RUBIN: In all likelihood.
WATKINS: In all likelihood. He's been nominated by President Bush.
Now, won't opposing Alberto Gonzales's nomination just further alienate the Hispanics, who are moving actually to our side, to the Republican side?
RUBIN: Well, I would think your position would be that we shouldn't be judging him on the basis of his skin color and that Hispanics wouldn't be alienated by opposition if it's principled.
(APPLAUSE)
RUBIN: But I don't anticipate -- I don't anticipate that kind of opposition to Gonzales.
I think that there are questions that will be asked about, for example, his saying in a way that I think endangers American troops abroad that the Geneva Conventions are anachronistic and quaint. They protect our troops, as well as foreign troops that we capture. So there will be questions.
WATKINS: So you agree that Gonzales is a great choice?
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: I think he will be confirmed.
BEGALA: Let me talk let Barbara talked about Judge Gonzales. First, I know him a little bit from Texas days. He's a fine choice. And I hope the Senate does confirm him.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm going to miss Ashcroft.
But I think this suggests perhaps that our president is moving to the center, doesn't it? Here's Richard Viguerie, a very successful right-wing direct-mail -- really, a leader of the conservative movement in America, attacking Al Gonzales today in an interview on CNN with our own Ed Henry. Here's Richard Viguerie attacking Judge Gonzales.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) RICHARD VIGUERIE, CHAIRMAN, AMERICAN TARGET ADVERTISING: He's never gone out and publicly identified himself or even privately that conservatives are aware of with the president's social agenda, political agenda. And he's basically a blank slate.
And President Bush's father, when he was president, sent up an attorney who was a blank slate to be on the Supreme Court, and his name was David Souter. And so conservatives have a saying among themselves: Do you know how to say David Souter in Spanish? And it's Alberto Gonzales.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Now, I will say, in defense of Mr. Viguerie, he was speaking about potentially elevating Mr. Gonzales to the Supreme Court, not as attorney general. But that's an awfully rough attack from the right on Gonzales, isn't it?
COMSTOCK: Well, Paul, actually, I'm going to have to agree with you. I think Gonzales, as you point out, has served with distinction with the president for 10 years. He has a solid record.
He was on the ground September 11 here in the White House, working with the president. So you're going to have a very seamless transition in prosecuting this war on terror.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
COMSTOCK: He has just a compelling personal story. He went to Harvard Law School. He is highly rated by everybody who's worked with him and who knows him. And he has a great record that I think...
(CROSSTALK)
COMSTOCK: ... broad consensus.
BEGALA: We're going to take a quick break.
When we come back, our guests will enter the "Rapid Fire." And I'm going to ask Barbara about some of the really weird things that happened under John Ashcroft, one of which involved Crisco oil.
And just ahead -- I know it's too creepy to think about, but just stay tuned, won't you? Just ahead, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on strange developments in the Scott Peterson murder case.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, U.S. and Iraqi troops continuing their push through Fallujah. The Iraqis say they've found houses where hostages have been killed.
President Bush nominates his White House counsel to be the next attorney general, why the nomination of Alberto Gonzales could be controversial.
More turmoil in the Scott Peterson trial. Another juror is out. And it's not just any juror. What happens now?
All those stories, much more, only moments away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
BEGALA: Thank you, Wolf. We look forward to your report.
But time now for "Rapid Fire," where the questions come even faster than John Ashcroft can cover the big brass breasts on the statue of justice.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: In the CROSSFIRE, former Ashcroft aide and Republican strategist Barbara Comstock. She is joined by Georgetown University law professor Peter Rubin, who founded the American Constitution Society.
WATKINS: Well, you're up, Peter.
The Democrats really have two choices to make, I think. The Republicans won just last week in the presidential election. Also, they won both the House -- both the House and the Senate. So, what are Democrats going to do? They can either work with the Republican majority to get things done or they can be permanent obstructionists. Which path do you think they'll choose?
RUBIN: I think that, where principle is at issue, they will act to oppose the administration, and where it makes sense to...
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: Like moral values, moral values? They're going to oppose the administration on the moral values, on moral issues?
RUBIN: I think that where the administration wants to do immoral things, yes, they will of course oppose them.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Barbara...
COMSTOCK: In other words, they'll go the way of Tom Daschle.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: The attorney general, as the law enforcement officer, who is supposed to be enforcing the separation of church and state, began his tenure, he wrote in his autobiography, by having Crisco oil smeared on his head in a religious ceremony. Why a religious ceremony for a secular office?
COMSTOCK: Paul, I think it's great that you just continue on this path of attacking people's religious beliefs and ridiculing people of faith. This is why lost.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: This is secular. Anything he wants to do in church -- no, God bless him, literally, anything he wants to do in church.
COMSTOCK: This is something...
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: But why, when he's coming to work for the government, which includes Jews and atheists and Muslims, does he rub Crisco on his head?
COMSTOCK: That he privately did himself with his family, that that is something that you want to ridicule, be my guest. Go the way of Tom Daschle and your other friends. Attack people for their religious faith.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: I'm not attacking his faith. I'm attacking his position in office.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's going to have to be it.
Barbara Comstock, thank you very much, former Ashcroft aide.
Peter Rubin, from Georgetown University Law Center, thank you both very much.
Coming up next, politics and pugilism often happens in the CROSSFIRE, but now at least one Democrats proves that there's still some fight left in the old left. He's looking for a Republican to climb into the ring with him.
I will tell you that story right after this.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Well, one John Kerry supporter is certainly feeling the eye of the tiger these days. Oakland, California, graphic designer Paul Valario (ph) is issuing some fighting words over the Democrats' election loss.
He's on the craigslist.org Internet bulletin board trying to find a Bush back for what he called -- quote -- "a fair physical fight." His post says -- quote -- "I would like to fight a Bush supporter to vent my anger" -- unquote.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: He has not found a taker. My own guess is because Bush supporters don't like a fair fight.
(LAUGHTER)
WATKINS: Send him Arnold. We'll send him Arnold.
BEGALA: Arnold?
(LAUGHTER)
WATKINS: Arnold is right there in California. That's a fair fight.
BEGALA: That is -- that's a great answer.
From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
WATKINS: From the right, I'm Joe Watkins. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
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Aired November 10, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: A controversial Cabinet member steps down. Attorney General John Ashcroft won high praise and harsh criticism for his work in the Bush administration.
Alberto Gonzales takes over at the Justice Department. Will the next attorney general continue Ashcroft's hard line on the Patriot Act and social issues?
Other members of the Bush team are stepping down or said to be considering it. Who will make up the roster of the new Bush team?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and, sitting in on the right, Joe Watkins.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
In the first shakeup of the Bush Cabinet, Commerce Secretary Don Evans and Attorney General John Ashcroft are stepping down. The president intends to nominate White House counsel Alberto Gonzales to replace Attorney General Ashcroft. But already both the left and some on the right are criticizing the former Texas Supreme Court justice.
We will debate Mr. Ashcroft and his successor today in the CROSSFIRE.
And joining me today on the right, returning CROSSFIRE favorite, Republican strategist, radio talk show host Joe Watkins.
Joe, welcome back.
(APPLAUSE)
JOE WATKINS, GUEST HOST: Thanks. Good to be back. Great to be back.
BEGALA: Bob Novak and Tucker Carlson, you should know, are in deep mourning over the departure of Attorney General Ashcroft. But Joe was good enough to fill in. And we will begin today, as we always do, with the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
WATKINS: Attorney General John Ashcroft and Commerce Secretary Don Evans won't stay for a second Bush term.
Evans, a close friend of the president, ran the campaign that brought him to office four years ago and promoted tax cuts that gave money back to the middle class and small businesses. And as one of the leading figures in the fight against terrorism, Ashcroft deserved the praise that he got from the White House, which said he worked to make the U.S. safer.
After all, violent crime in the U.S. is at a 30-year low. Ashcroft also drew a lot of heat over the Patriot Act. But keep these things in mind. The act passed in Congress with overwhelming support from both parties, and there hasn't been another attack in the U.S. since September 11.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, I don't know how many of our audience saw Ashcroft's announcement. I was moved when he declared, I am a gay American. And he...
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: No, that was Jim McGreevey in New Jersey. I...
WATKINS: That was the other side of the aisle.
BEGALA: That's sort of a fantasy of mine.
I'm going to miss Attorney General Ashcroft. So I'm going to hit him with everything I have got for the next 30 minutes. I may hold my fire for most of it, but I will say, crime dropped under President Clinton and Janet Reno. It hasn't go much up, but murder is up.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Murder is up.
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: ... John Ashcroft.
BEGALA: It's not true.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It dropped -- it dropped like this under Clinton and Reno, and it stayed steady. Congratulations, Mr. President. You haven't made it that much worse, but murder is actually slightly up, only slightly, but slightly up under Attorney General Ashcroft. So... WATKINS: Thanks to John Ashcroft.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: It's up a little bit.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Murder is up.
Anyway, American troops today found hostage slaughterhouses where hostages have been beheaded in Falluja. But they have not yet captured the top terrorist leaders who have been doing the beheading. President Bush postponed the assault on Falluja until after the election, which has apparently allowed top terrorists to escape.
American military officials in Iraq tell today's "New York Times" insurgent leaders fled Falluja before the invasion and are now coordinating attacks throughout the rest of Iraq. Abu Musab al Zarqawi, the pig who personally beheaded some of those hostages, has almost certainly escaped, military officials say. A year ago, there were 20 to 25 attacks per day on our troops. A month ago, it was 80 attacks today. And now, there are 130 attacks every day against American troops.
More Americans are dying 18 months after the president declared mission accomplished and said that major combat operations were over.
WATKINS: Well, Paul, the other side of the story is this.
I mean, our troops are doing a great job. We now have 70 percent of Falluja under U.S. control. That's a good, good statistic.
(APPLAUSE)
WATKINS: We've got the insurgents on the run. Zarqawi and these guys, they're in caves. They're fleeing the U.S. troops. Free elections are on the way come January. This is good news for the American people and for the Iraqi people.
BEGALA: They may not have fled if the president had the courage to attack when he needed to, instead of putting it off until after the election.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Maybe they wouldn't have fled.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Maybe they would be dead, which would be a hell of a lot better.
WATKINS: Well, the Democrats have decided that moral values are a good thing after all. Charlie Rangel, New York congressman and frequent CROSSFIRE guest, says, Democrats are actually the party of moral values.
He promises we'll hear a lot from Democrats on moral values over the next two years. That idea got support from former President Bill Clinton, who told a college crowd that voters thought Republican candidates did a better job of understanding the moral issues that are important to people. He's right.
Exit polls show that an overwhelming majority of those whose vote was based on moral issues, such as the right to life, voted for Bush. I actually agree that no party has the monopoly on moral values. The most important thing now, the most pressing thing now, is for both parties to work to bring Americans together.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, I agree with that part. No party has a monopoly on moral values. And I'm always surprised by my friends...
WATKINS: But we do a much better job of showing people that we care.
BEGALA: Of talking about values. Democrats actually live values. That's the only difference.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
WATKINS: I don't think so. I don't think so.
BEGALA: Republicans like to lecture and hector the rest of us.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm from red state America. And I'm so tired of my friends and relatives in red state America thinking that they're morally superior to people in blue state America, because they're not.
(APPLAUSE)
WATKINS: Absolutely -- well, none of us are morally superior to anybody else.
I believe, as a Christian person, that I've been forgiven. That's a wonderful thing. But Republicans have done a much better job about fighting for the rights of those who can't fight for themselves, like the unborn.
(BELL RINGING)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: How? How? Oh, like poor people?
WATKINS: Like the unborn.
BEGALA: Jesus' whole mission was about the poor.
WATKINS: Well, Republicans are about helping the poor to learn how to...
BEGALA: They created more of them. They like them so much, they created more of them.
(APPLAUSE)
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, we'll come back to this, because, actually, this is what I want to talk about, too.
Joe is right. Moral issues motivated about one out of every four voters last week. And the Fifth Commandment says, honor thy father and thy mother. That's a moral issue, isn't it? Well, let's see if our Republican friends are living by that.
Under President Bush, giant greedy corporations are suing their retired employees to break their contract and cancel their health insurance. "The Wall Street Journal" reports today that this deeply immoral practice has exploded during the Bush era. Defenseless retirees, after a lifetime of service to the company, get shafted. Promises get broken. Health care gets canceled just when seniors need it most.
So has our pious president spoken out against this sinful act? Is he calling for legislation to punish these dirtbag corporations? Don't hold your breath. Apparently, Mr. Bush is too busy cashing campaign checks from the corporations to worry very much about whether they are honoring our mothers and our fathers. So, are these the values you voted for, red staters? I don't think so.
WATKINS: Well, the president has been the leader in terms of putting corporate criminals on notice that, if you commit corporate crimes, you're going to jail.
BEGALA: What? What?
WATKINS: Let's talking about the Fifth Commandment.
BEGALA: What?
WATKINS: Absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He has been the biggest corporate...
WATKINS: Absolutely not. Absolutely not.
BEGALA: I'm trying to think of a polite way to say it, butler, shall we say, to the big corporations.
WATKINS: Absolutely not. Let's talk about the Fifth Commandment.
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: When has he ever took them on? Name one time. He wanted to put arsenic in our water. He wanted to put more lead in the air.
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: Absolutely not.
If you want to talk about father and mother, though, how can you honor your father and mother unless father and mother are a man and a woman?
(APPLAUSE)
WATKINS: The president said that marriage is between a man and a woman. You can't honor your mother and father unless you're a man and a woman.
BEGALA: Well, how about one man, one woman, one time? Every Republican I know has been divorced three times and they're lecturing me.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: All right.
President Bush will start his second term with a few changes in his Cabinet. As John Ashcroft sings his swan song, President Bush turns to someone who, unlike Ashcroft, never lost an election to a dead guy.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: And one John Kerry supporter is so angry about his candidate's loss, he wants to get physical. We will tell you what he's got on his mind, and you really won't believe this, later in the CROSSFIRE.
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to CROSSFIRE at the George Washington University, call 202-994-8CNN or visit our Web site. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Less than an hour ago, President Bush announced his intention to nominate White House counsel Alberto Gonzales to replace John Ashcroft as America's attorney general. Gonzales, who served as counsel to Governor Bush in Texas before becoming White House counsel to President Bush in Washington, has already taken flak from liberals who don't like his legal opinions on issues like detainees in Guantanamo Bay and from some conservatives who accuse the longtime Bush loyalist as perhaps having very well hidden liberal leanings.
In the CROSSFIRE to debate the Ashcroft legacy and the Gonzales nomination, former Ashcroft aide and Republican strategist Barbara Comstock, and Peter Rubin. He's a professor of law at Georgetown University and the founder of the American Constitution Society.
Good to see you both.
(APPLAUSE)
PETER RUBIN, LAW PROFESSOR, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Nice to be here.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Barbara, your man Ashcroft, I'm going to miss him. I am going to miss him.
BARBARA COMSTOCK, FORMER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON: I know you are.
BEGALA: I knew he was going to get fired right after the election. I just didn't know it would work out this way. So let's...
COMSTOCK: I thought you were going to hire him.
BEGALA: Let's begin -- I would love to, believe me.
Let's begin by looking at the Ashcroft record on terror, the most important issue. He cited medical reasons. I understand he broke his arm patting himself on the back in his resignation letter.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
COMSTOCK: No, Paul, as you know, because -- he had some very serious surgery last year.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He did. And we acknowledge that. And we did prayed for him at that moment.
COMSTOCK: I lost a father-in-law to that. So it's a serious illness.
BEGALA: But I thought his letter was self-aggrandizing in congratulating himself for essentially the war on terror. It's all over now.
So, let's take a look at what the 9/11 Commission actually said about Mr. Ashcroft's tenure. This is quoting from CNN's report on the 9/11 Commission: "Former acting FBI Director Thomas Pickard said Ashcroft dismissed warnings of terrorist threats during the summer of 2001 and rejected appeals for additional counterterrorism funds. Pickard said in late June and through July, he met with Attorney General Ashcroft once a week, the 9/11 Commission report says. He told us that though he initially briefed the attorney general regarding these threats, after two such briefings, the attorney general told him he didn't want to hear this information anymore.
"FBI counterterrorism chief Dale Watson told the 9/11 Commission he almost fell out of his chair when Ashcroft outlined his budget priorities in May 2001 because the list made no mention of counterterrorism."
The man was asleep at the switch, wasn't he?
COMSTOCK: Not at all, Paul, because, in fact, as you know, from the testimony that the attorney general gave this spring, he said that did not occur. And Larry Thompson, who is his deputy, also concurred in that.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Why didn't he prosecute them for perjury, then? He's the attorney general. If they were lying under oath to an organ of the United States government, that's perjury. Shouldn't he have prosecuted them?
COMSTOCK: In May of 2001, he also testified that terrorism was his top priority.
Now, Janet Reno -- if you want to -- I will be happy to compare the Ashcroft and now the Gonzales record against eight years of Janet Reno, when she was out opening day-care centers. The attorney general...
(APPLAUSE)
COMSTOCK: ... unlike you and your buddies, did not think that terrorism was a nuisance. He went after it. He passed the Patriot Act; 98...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: This is after 9/11. I'm talking about before 9/11.
COMSTOCK: Before 9/11, he said that that was his priority.
BEGALA: In sworn testimony, his own deputies say he ignored it, but now you're saying that they were lying?
(CROSSTALK)
COMSTOCK: He worked to change Janet Reno's budget priorities, which didn't have terrorism as a priority.
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: Peter, you're up.
Now, I feel sorry for Paul, only because, only because, now that John Ashcroft is gone, who else will the Democrats have to kick around?
RUBIN: Well, I think the president is always responsible for his appointees, and John Ashcroft was one, and he was a dismal failure as an attorney general.
(APPLAUSE)
WATKINS: Well, we haven't had another attack, Peter, since September 11.
RUBIN: It's true, but John Ashcroft had nothing to do with that. He rounded up 5,000 people.
WATKINS: Absolutely. Absolutely.
RUBIN: He rounded up 5,000 people and said they were suspected terrorists.
WATKINS: Three hundred and ninety-four arrests.
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: What, 194 convictions.
RUBIN: Three prosecutions for terrorism and one conviction.
WATKINS: Absolutely not. Absolutely not, 194 convictions.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: I want to see the convictions.
There's been one terrorist conviction under John Ashcroft; 500 people were deported from the United States.
COMSTOCK: Well, I think it depends on what you mean by terrorists.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: But those are misses. Those are misses and not hits.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: It's not up to the attorney general to stop attacks on the United States. That's the military, I hope.
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: No, but he strengthened the FBI surveillance, right?
(CROSSTALK) WATKINS: The bad guy don't wear uniforms these days saying,I'm a terrorist.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Go ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: He has the worst record on civil liberties of any attorney general in American history, perhaps. And when you say...
(APPLAUSE)
RUBIN: And when you say...
(APPLAUSE)
RUBIN: And when you say that he strengthened surveillance, he absolutely did. There are searches without...
WATKINS: And thank God for it.
RUBIN: There are searches without suspicion of innocent Americans now in the United States in a way there haven't been before.
(CROSSTALK)
COMSTOCK: ... with a judge. It has to have a judge.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: No, it doesn't have to have a judge.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: We know that -- we know that -- we know that Internet use can now be scrutinized under an expansion of the powers.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: Under an expansion of the powers.
COMSTOCK: Good. Keep campaigning on this. Oppose the Patriot Act.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: I'm not running a campaign. I'm a law professor, Barbara.
BEGALA: The worst -- Professor Rubin says the worst attorney general on civil liberties in American history, even worse than Palmer in World War I, who was running around arresting people for no reason?
COMSTOCK: And that's ridiculous. The Patriot Act has specific provisions in there to protect civil liberties. We broke up terrorist cells all around the country. I don't know what you think is a terrorist is. But when you have people who are over there training and come back here, for example, in Albany, there were people -- there were cells in Oregon that were broken up.
RUBIN: Tell me about the convictions, Barbara. How many convictions for terrorism?
(CROSSTALK)
COMSTOCK: They pled guilty. They pled guilty. Yes.
RUBIN: How many? How many? How many?
(CROSSTALK)
COMSTOCK: There are dozens.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: Dozens of convictions?
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: The audience is going to have to look it up.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: No, no, no. The audience is going to have to look it up.
COMSTOCK: I'll give you a place to look it up, LifeandLiberty.gov. It has dozens and dozens of convictions, because we broke...
RUBIN: Or you can look at a nonpartisan Web site and discover that...
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: ... that there have been three prosecutions and one conviction, Barbara, on top of which, his Justice Department...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: One at a time.
RUBIN: His Justice Department for the time in American history defended detaining American citizens arrested in the U.S. without charges, indefinitely.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: And the Supreme Court, including Justice Scalia, struck it down.
(CROSSTALK)
COMSTOCK: No. They upheld the authority of the president.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: I've litigated before the Supreme Court. And I'm dead certain that their opinion said...
WATKINS: These people are terrorists, man. The terrorists are not walking around, Peter, with a little -- they aren't walking around with a little T-shirt saying, I'm a terrorist.
(APPLAUSE)
RUBIN: How do you know they're terrorists?
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: Come on, man. It's all about keeping the American people safe.
RUBIN: The grave terrorist Hamdi.
WATKINS: We lost thousands of people in New York on September 11.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: Believe me, you don't have to tell me.
WATKINS: I know because I had friends that died.
RUBIN: You don't have to tell me about the gravity of September 11.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: You're seeing why the Democrats lost. They don't think the people here who are doing terrorist financing, who are conducting -- who are going over and training, then come back here and have cells, they don't think those are terrorists. That's the reason that...
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: Those people haven't been convicted, Barbara. You're just making it up.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: But Yaser Hamdi, Yaser Hamdi, Yaser Hamdi, who this Justice Department told the Supreme Court was a grave threat to the United States, as soon as the Supreme Court, as soon as they ordered a hearing, he was released.
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: Peter, let me ask you a question about Gonzales.
RUBIN: Yes.
WATKINS: Alberto Gonzales is going to succeed John Ashcroft.
RUBIN: In all likelihood.
WATKINS: In all likelihood. He's been nominated by President Bush.
Now, won't opposing Alberto Gonzales's nomination just further alienate the Hispanics, who are moving actually to our side, to the Republican side?
RUBIN: Well, I would think your position would be that we shouldn't be judging him on the basis of his skin color and that Hispanics wouldn't be alienated by opposition if it's principled.
(APPLAUSE)
RUBIN: But I don't anticipate -- I don't anticipate that kind of opposition to Gonzales.
I think that there are questions that will be asked about, for example, his saying in a way that I think endangers American troops abroad that the Geneva Conventions are anachronistic and quaint. They protect our troops, as well as foreign troops that we capture. So there will be questions.
WATKINS: So you agree that Gonzales is a great choice?
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: I think he will be confirmed.
BEGALA: Let me talk let Barbara talked about Judge Gonzales. First, I know him a little bit from Texas days. He's a fine choice. And I hope the Senate does confirm him.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm going to miss Ashcroft.
But I think this suggests perhaps that our president is moving to the center, doesn't it? Here's Richard Viguerie, a very successful right-wing direct-mail -- really, a leader of the conservative movement in America, attacking Al Gonzales today in an interview on CNN with our own Ed Henry. Here's Richard Viguerie attacking Judge Gonzales.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) RICHARD VIGUERIE, CHAIRMAN, AMERICAN TARGET ADVERTISING: He's never gone out and publicly identified himself or even privately that conservatives are aware of with the president's social agenda, political agenda. And he's basically a blank slate.
And President Bush's father, when he was president, sent up an attorney who was a blank slate to be on the Supreme Court, and his name was David Souter. And so conservatives have a saying among themselves: Do you know how to say David Souter in Spanish? And it's Alberto Gonzales.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Now, I will say, in defense of Mr. Viguerie, he was speaking about potentially elevating Mr. Gonzales to the Supreme Court, not as attorney general. But that's an awfully rough attack from the right on Gonzales, isn't it?
COMSTOCK: Well, Paul, actually, I'm going to have to agree with you. I think Gonzales, as you point out, has served with distinction with the president for 10 years. He has a solid record.
He was on the ground September 11 here in the White House, working with the president. So you're going to have a very seamless transition in prosecuting this war on terror.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
COMSTOCK: He has just a compelling personal story. He went to Harvard Law School. He is highly rated by everybody who's worked with him and who knows him. And he has a great record that I think...
(CROSSTALK)
COMSTOCK: ... broad consensus.
BEGALA: We're going to take a quick break.
When we come back, our guests will enter the "Rapid Fire." And I'm going to ask Barbara about some of the really weird things that happened under John Ashcroft, one of which involved Crisco oil.
And just ahead -- I know it's too creepy to think about, but just stay tuned, won't you? Just ahead, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on strange developments in the Scott Peterson murder case.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, U.S. and Iraqi troops continuing their push through Fallujah. The Iraqis say they've found houses where hostages have been killed.
President Bush nominates his White House counsel to be the next attorney general, why the nomination of Alberto Gonzales could be controversial.
More turmoil in the Scott Peterson trial. Another juror is out. And it's not just any juror. What happens now?
All those stories, much more, only moments away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
BEGALA: Thank you, Wolf. We look forward to your report.
But time now for "Rapid Fire," where the questions come even faster than John Ashcroft can cover the big brass breasts on the statue of justice.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: In the CROSSFIRE, former Ashcroft aide and Republican strategist Barbara Comstock. She is joined by Georgetown University law professor Peter Rubin, who founded the American Constitution Society.
WATKINS: Well, you're up, Peter.
The Democrats really have two choices to make, I think. The Republicans won just last week in the presidential election. Also, they won both the House -- both the House and the Senate. So, what are Democrats going to do? They can either work with the Republican majority to get things done or they can be permanent obstructionists. Which path do you think they'll choose?
RUBIN: I think that, where principle is at issue, they will act to oppose the administration, and where it makes sense to...
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: Like moral values, moral values? They're going to oppose the administration on the moral values, on moral issues?
RUBIN: I think that where the administration wants to do immoral things, yes, they will of course oppose them.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Barbara...
COMSTOCK: In other words, they'll go the way of Tom Daschle.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: The attorney general, as the law enforcement officer, who is supposed to be enforcing the separation of church and state, began his tenure, he wrote in his autobiography, by having Crisco oil smeared on his head in a religious ceremony. Why a religious ceremony for a secular office?
COMSTOCK: Paul, I think it's great that you just continue on this path of attacking people's religious beliefs and ridiculing people of faith. This is why lost.
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: This is secular. Anything he wants to do in church -- no, God bless him, literally, anything he wants to do in church.
COMSTOCK: This is something...
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: But why, when he's coming to work for the government, which includes Jews and atheists and Muslims, does he rub Crisco on his head?
COMSTOCK: That he privately did himself with his family, that that is something that you want to ridicule, be my guest. Go the way of Tom Daschle and your other friends. Attack people for their religious faith.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: I'm not attacking his faith. I'm attacking his position in office.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: That's going to have to be it.
Barbara Comstock, thank you very much, former Ashcroft aide.
Peter Rubin, from Georgetown University Law Center, thank you both very much.
Coming up next, politics and pugilism often happens in the CROSSFIRE, but now at least one Democrats proves that there's still some fight left in the old left. He's looking for a Republican to climb into the ring with him.
I will tell you that story right after this.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Well, one John Kerry supporter is certainly feeling the eye of the tiger these days. Oakland, California, graphic designer Paul Valario (ph) is issuing some fighting words over the Democrats' election loss.
He's on the craigslist.org Internet bulletin board trying to find a Bush back for what he called -- quote -- "a fair physical fight." His post says -- quote -- "I would like to fight a Bush supporter to vent my anger" -- unquote.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: He has not found a taker. My own guess is because Bush supporters don't like a fair fight.
(LAUGHTER)
WATKINS: Send him Arnold. We'll send him Arnold.
BEGALA: Arnold?
(LAUGHTER)
WATKINS: Arnold is right there in California. That's a fair fight.
BEGALA: That is -- that's a great answer.
From the left, I'm Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
WATKINS: From the right, I'm Joe Watkins. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
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