Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Crossfire
DeLay Tactics
Aired November 17, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: DeLay tactics in Congress. Republicans look for a way to keep their party leader in power if he is indicted by a Texas grand jury. Three of Tom DeLay's associates have already been charged, but DeLay says the Texas probe is just a partisan attack.
REP. TOM DELAY (R-TX), MAJORITY LEADER: We know what the Democrats are going to do in the future. The Democrats have decided that they're going to use politics of personal destruction to gain power, and what we are doing is protecting ourselves from those assaults.
ANNOUNCER: Is this a case of partisan politics or are Republicans rewriting the rules to protect one of their own?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
You know, Mark Twain famously said there's no distinctly native American criminal class, except Congress. Congressional Republicans today proved him right, changing the rules so that their ethically challenged leader, Tom DeLay, can remain in power even if indicted.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Well, Democrats can't seem to beat Tom DeLay in fair-and-square elections, so they're trying to criminalize politics. They failed. Today, the House ruined the Democratic plot to strip Tom DeLay of his leadership position.
Now the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Democrats these days agree John Kerry was a poor candidate. But Senator Kerry, who is on the Senate floor this minute, didn't get the message. Today, he hinted he might run for president again, but didn't he just lose by 3.5 million votes? Senator Kerry points to the close vote in Ohio, which decided the overall Electoral College outcome.
He then said quote -- "50,000 votes, we'd be in a different place." Actually, it would take 60,000 votes. Now, back in 1960, less than 28,000 votes would have flipped two states where votes probably were stolen, Texas and Illinois, and would have made Richard Nixon president, instead of Jack Kennedy. But Nixon didn't complain. Advice to John Kerry, stop whining and get used to it.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: I wouldn't say get used to it. I think your point is right. Let me start with that. Your point is right, that Democrats shouldn't say, well, we only lost by 60,000. No, we lost by 3.5 million. You're right. We should stop whining, but not get used to it. Start fighting. Start deciding what it is Democrats stand for, rebuild this party and get back in there and fight. That's what we need to do, instead of worrying about 50,000...
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: I agree with that, but just from the standpoint of simple accuracy, you didn't lose by 60,000 in Ohio. You lost by 120,000.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: It would take 60,000 to switch it, but John Kerry has never been too good on facts and figures, and he went to 50,000.
BEGALA: Well, are you ready for some nudity? Well, if not, don't watch "Monday Night Football." ABC has made "Monday Night Football" almost unwatchable by using it to showcase right-wing stooges like Dennis Miller, who knew nothing about football. Al Michaels, the play-by-play announcer, is another tomorrow tool. He contributed $2,000 to George W. Bush and he has used his platform at "Monday Night Football" to call Katherine Harris an American heroine, to attack John Kerry, and even to slam me.
But Mr. Michaels' moral superiority was muted when "Monday Night Football" opened this week with a fully naked actress from ABC's "Desperate Housewives" show jumping into the arms of Philadelphia Eagles wide receiver Terrell Owens. Apparently, T.O. made the catch. FCC chairman Michael Powell huffed today, I wonder if Walt Disney would be proud?
Well, I don't know, Mr. Chairman, but Al Michaels' pious, pompous, sanctimonious sermons make me pine for the days of Howard Cosell. Hey, Al, are you ready for some hypocrisy? I'm sick of these guys.
NOVAK: You know, Paul, you say it's unwatchable. You don't watch it, because Dennis Miller hasn't been on in a couple of years.
BEGALA: But Al Michaels is still on, and he stinks.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You'll pardon me. Al Michaels is the best sportscaster America. And you just can't stand anybody, the few of us in communications, who aren't left-wing Democrats.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: Now, I will say -- I will say this. If you ever watched that show, that is one of the best programs on television. Just because he's for George Bush doesn't mean he's not good.
BEGALA: The ratings are tanking. The market works. The ratings are tanking on "Monday Night Football." Get rid of Al Michaels.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Howard Dean is 56 years old today. But it wasn't really that happy a birthday. He got a real birthday nonpresent from Harry Reid. Harry Reid neither looks nor sounds like much, but he may just be the most important Democrat in Washington today. He's the newly elected Senate Democratic leader, who has strong ideas about bringing his party back to power, and he wants no part of Howard Dean.
Senator Reid did not hesitate in endorsing Iowa Governor Tom Vilsack for Democratic national chairman over the little doctor from Vermont. Howard wants to take over the party as much. As Republicans cheer him on, he'll have to roll over the Harry Reids and Tom Vilsacks, and that won't be easy.
BEGALA: No, it won't. And you made the point earlier that Democrats should stop whining. Well, they are. And they are rethinking their party.
Harry Reid, the new Senate leader, is a pro-life Democrat. Tom Vilsack is, I think, much more moderate than Governor Dean is. It looks like he's getting a lot of support for Democratic National Committee chairman. It looks like Democrats are actually starting to get the message that we have to change our party and figure out ways to win, instead of simply whining.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Harry Reid is one of the toughest guys in Washington. He doesn't shout. He doesn't scream. And maybe Howard ought to realize that yelling and screaming doesn't really help you in politics that much.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, I like yelling and screaming, too.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Governor Dean -- I'll say this. He gave my party back its spine when they were all wimping out against Bush on the war. He fought back. And I honor him for that.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, right-wing Senator Rick Santorum once compared adult gay Americans in committed relationships to something he called -- and I'm quoting here -- "man on dog."
But "The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette" reports today that Mr. Morality may be violating the commandment against bearing false witness. The Santorums homeschool their six children. Good for them. But they stick the public schools of Penn Hills, Pennsylvania, where they claim to live, with a whopping $100,000 bill. Bad for them.
When a "Pittsburgh Post-Gazette" reporter knocked on the door of the Santorums' supposed Pennsylvania home, he was greeted by a 25- year-old couple. No sign of the Santorum clan. Senator Santorum does also own a $757,000 home in the suburbs of Washington, D.C. So, could the good senator be fibbing about living in Pennsylvania to take advantage of a state law that requires Pennsylvania taxpayers to subsidize expensive cyber-schooling for his kids?
Virginia has no such law. Perhaps it is time, Senator, to render under Caesar what is Caesar's.
NOVAK: You know, Paul, I think you must that know that many members of Congress for many years have had dual homes, back at home, where their official residence is. And they want to stay with their kids. They want to see their kids every day, as you see your kids every day.
And Rick Santorum has never made a secret of that arrangement.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: And that is just dirty politics to go out and attack that now.
BEGALA: He charged the people of Pennsylvania. He doesn't -- his kids aren't living in Pennsylvania. Why should taxpayers there subsidize his cyber-schooling when he doesn't live there?
Well, anyway, in "Apocalypse Now," Marlon Brando's Colonel Kurtz declared, "As for the charges against me, I'm unconcerned. I'm beyond their timid, lying morality. And so I'm beyond carrying." Today, House Republicans decided their leader is also no longer bound by the standards of morality. We'll debate this case of congressional rule- rigging just ahead.
And then later, who is going to be "TIME" magazine's person of the year? Well, Bob and I have our own nominations later in the CROSSFIRE.
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to CROSSFIRE at the George Washington University, call 202-994-8CNN or visit our Web site. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: House Republicans have found a way to keep a politicized Democratic prosecutor in Texas from forcing Congressman Tom DeLay from the majority leader's chair. The House voted to require a party committee to review any felony indictment of a party leader, then recommend whether the leader should step aside.
Will this stop the partisan witch-hunt or will Democrats, who can't seem to beat DeLay at the ballot box, continue to try to use the courts as their only hope?
Today in the CROSSFIRE, Congresswoman Sheila Jackson, Democrat of Texas, Congressman Anne Northup, Republican of Kentucky.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Good to see you both.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: First, congratulations to both of you on your reelections.
Congresswoman Anne Northup, you once -- your Democrat -- your district was once Democratic. You won it back for your party, or you won it for your party.
REP. ANNE NORTHUP (R), KENTUCKY: Right.
BEGALA: And overwhelmingly reelected just a few weeks ago, fair and square, too, on the level, no allegations of cheating, with the usual high ethical standards that you're known for.
So let me contrast that with the leader of your party in the House, Tom DeLay, my congressman from where I grew up in Texas. Just let me show the greatest hits, the four times that the Ethics Committee has written to him about ethical problems that he has shown; 1997, the Ethics Committee advised Mr. DeLay to avoid suggesting he would grant favors in exchange for campaign contributions. And then in 2004, he hit the trifecta.
The committee, controlled by Republicans in all these cases, by the way, admonished Mr. DeLay for his role in promising...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: It's an even vote. It's not controlled by the Republicans.
BEGALA: But the chair is a Republican.
Admonished Mr. DeLay for his role in promising favors in exchange for a Medicare vote, admonished Mr. DeLay for his role in an energy fund-raiser, and admonished him for using FAA resources from Homeland Security to hunt down Democrats in his state.
Now, my question is, why would such an ethical person as you choose such a slime ball to lead your party?
(APPLAUSE)
NORTHUP: You know, I think that that's a far reach.
But I think what we see going on in Texas is something that is very scary to all of us, and that is somebody who is elected across the state from Tom DeLay can reach across the state, file an indictment. He has got a history of filing false indictments, indictments that never go to trial or indictments where he doesn't get a conviction and be able to take somebody out.
And, you know, I just think that we feel like there should be a much more sober process here than somebody who has a political history.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I appreciate that. But the political history I want to ask you about, though, is the House Ethics Committee, your colleagues, Republicans and Democrats alike, who have cited him four times. Now, by the way, can you tell me any current member of the House who has had more ethical citations than Mr. DeLay?
NORTHUP: Well, me just say that...
BEGALA: There's not any. He's the Hank Aaron of ethics problems.
NORTHUP: Well, but the fact is, is that what is really going on here is that, last spring, you saw the Democrats say, we're going to demonize Tom DeLay. He became the Newt Gingrich of our party. And they've gone after him every single day, every single week.
In my district, they paid for thousands, hundreds of thousands of into all of the residents telling him to call my office.
(CROSSTALK)
NORTHUP: No, it's part of their political game. It's not part of the winning the debate on the war or homeland security or anything else. And I don't think that's the way to conduct public policy.
NOVAK: Congresswoman, let me try to put this in some perspective.
The Texas Democrats, who are a minority party in Texas, had had a gerrymandered congressional delegation controlling a Republican state until Tom DeLay said, hey, we have got to have a fair redistricting. You got a fair redistricting. You lost five seats, a net five seats in Texas, and this is the revenge. And let's see what Tom DeLay has to say in his own defense.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DELAY: We know what the Democrats are going to do in the future. The Democrats have decided that they're going to use politics of personal destruction to gain power, and what we are doing is protecting ourselves from those assaults.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: You can't deny that, can you?
REP. SHEILA JACKSON LEE (D), TEXAS: Bob, you know what? I think if the Republicans could blame fall of Rome on Democrats, they would do so.
(APPLAUSE)
LEE: This is not the fault of Democrats.
And let me be very clear. My good friend and colleague, Anne Northup -- and we work together. But let me be very clear. The district attorney in Austin, Texas, has probably indicted more Democrats than he has indicted Republicans. The Democrats in the House cannot be blamed on grand jurors in Austin, Texas.
I think the real question is that the American people have now been both disappointed and as well left abandoned by the majority in this House, because what will be the call of the day, rather than focusing on Medicare and Social Security reform and the Iraq war, we'll be talking about an ethically challenged majority in the United States Congress, and the American people will lose.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Let me ask you a question. And I know you're a very straight shooter. You'll give me a straight answer. Why is it that the Democrats are raising such a fuss about the idea that, if you get whatever kind of phony indictment, you have to have a rule that the majority leader quits, when you have no such rule in the Democratic Party? Isn't that the height of hypocrisy?
LEE: Let me, first of all, say that we have rules in the Democratic Caucus and they relate to the chairman and the ranking member, but we have the opportunity and option to address...
NOVAK: There's no rule for the leaders.
LEE: We have the opportunity and option to deal with leaders and we have not been confronted in the recent time that Tom DeLay has been in office with this very issue.
NOVAK: Don't disappoint me. Don't disappoint me. You have no rules regarding leaders.
(CROSSTALK) LEE: But we have no block of a rule, which is what the Republican conference did today. They blocked that opportunity for that individual to stay in place.
NOVAK: There's no rule.
BEGALA: Your colleague, Eric Cantor from a real rising star, brilliant guy -- he's been on the show any number of times -- committed the sin of candor, did Congressman Cantor, telling "The Washington Post" this. This is why he says your colleagues and he are trying to get DeLay off the hook, even though he's facing indictment.,
"That's why this proposed rule change is going to pass, assuming it's submitted, because there is tremendous recognition that Tom DeLay led on the issue to produce five more seats." That is to say, the very potentially illegal activity he's being investigated for is what landed your party five more seats. So you are paying him back. So crime does pay. That's the point Mr. Candor is making, isn't it?
NORTHUP: No, no. Eric Cantor is talking about something entirely different. And that is leading the effort to redistrict, so that it reflected what the state's political leanings are.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: But the indictments that have come down so far are directly related to that redistricting fight in Texas. Three DeLay associates already indicted, perhaps Mr. DeLay. I have no idea.
NORTHUP: But the same man -- and let me say, this man, yes, he has indicted Democrats, all who are his political opponents.
But he could top -- people like Kay Bailey Hutchison, Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, imagine if she could be removed from office -- and you're talking about removing him from his office as majority leader -- and the trial never went -- it never went to trial. But five years from now, Tom DeLay could never go to trial, Tom DeLay could be clear, but by then he would be out as majority leader.
NOVAK: Congresswoman, just following up what Anne Northup says, I was down in Texas 10 years ago covering that event. That was an incredible thing. You had a left-wing populist named Jim Maddox (ph) running for the Senate. He had no chance to win. And they were trying to force Ronnie Earle give this phony indictment that she had people on the staff working on a political campaign. That's one of the most shocking things in the world.
And let me just read what you Kay Bailey Hutchison says. "I know" -- And I think Kay Bailey Hutchison is not a radical. She's not somebody who says wild things. "I know he prosecutes for political purposes. He did it to me. And I think it is a very dangerous thing to criminalize politics."
Why don't we have politics out of the criminal justice system, just whether you win the election or not? LEE: You know, there's a major distinction. And, by the way, we all have a great deal of respect for our now senior senator. But it was a great distinction.
First of all, we're talking about an individual in her capacity as an elected official. We're talking now what the leadership of the United States Congress, the Republican conference did to its leader. That is an example that should be set for the American people, that, when you're in a leadership role, leading the majority, you have the responsibility to not be ethically challenged.
This is going to be a problem for the American people. We're going to fail them because we won't be able to deal with the agenda. And let me just say, with respect to our state, about three million of us voted Democratically.
NOVAK: That many?
LEE: So, this state, about three million of us voted. And we're growing in Texas. And the redistricting process is going to be reformed.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You're a minority.
We're going to take a break, though. And next, in "Rapid Fire," we'll ask if the Democrats have any hope of winning back the House in the lifetime of anybody sitting at this table.
And Russia announces it is developing a new nuclear weapon. Wolf Blitzer tells us how U.S. leaders are reacting to this stunning news right after this.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, Vladimir Putin says Russia is developing a new nuclear missile system no other country can match. Is it an echo of the Cold War or just Russian domestic politics?
Kmart and Sears announcing a merger. What does it mean for shoppers?
And remember that U.S. Marine who vanished in Iraq, then turned up safe in Lebanon? There's a strange new twist to this story.
All those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE. BEGALA: Thank you, Wolf. We look forward to your show at the top of the hour.
Time now, though, for "Rapid Fire," where the questions come even faster than Tom DeLay can rack up ethics violation.
In the CROSSFIRE, Republican Congresswoman Anne Northup. She is from Kentucky. And Democratic Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee of the great, great state of Texas.
NOVAK: Sheila Jackson Lee, we're entering the second decade of Republican control of the House of Representatives. Realistically, is there any hope in the foreseeable future that the Democrats will regain control in the House, particularly since they have set the redistricting straight in Texas?
LEE: Well, I absolutely believe that is the case. We do have the opportunity to take back the House. First of all, we won two Republican seats. And if we had not had...
NOVAK: Two?
LEE: We won two Republican seats. If we have not had the blitz, the Alamo, in Texas, we would have not lost in the position that we did.
We are presenting a message to the American people. We were suffering under a presidential victory, but yet we have both the message, we have the leadership, and we have the ethically empowered Democratic Caucus that will say to the American people, we stand with you against special interests.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Let me come back.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Congresswoman Northup, the House Ethics Committee found, as a matter of fact, that Tom DeLay violated House rules by using Homeland Security to track down and hunt Democrats. Was that ethical?
NORTHUP: You know, I'm not -- I have to tell you, I'm not aware of what they found on that.
But the House Ethics Committee gives advice and responds to people that ask questions, a lot of questions. Many, many have been asked about Tom DeLay for political purposes. And I just want to point out that the Democrats today met and yesterday met, and they did not pass a rule like they're criticizing us for to apply to Nancy Pelosi.
So, when the Democrats apply the same standard that they want us to apply to their leaders, we'll have...
(CROSSTALK) (APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Would you be in favor of applying that same standard?
LEE: I think the Democrats would welcome that. We already have rules that deal with our chairman and ranking member.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Congresswoman...
LEE: The question is whether or not we even have the opportunity. Our leaders are ethically empowered, not challenged.
NORTHUP: Oh, my goodness.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Sheila Jackson Lee, thank you very much. Anne Northup, thank you.
LEE: Thank you. Thank you.
NOVAK: You won't believe who's on the short list for "TIME"'s person of the year. We'll tell you who is on the list. And we'll give you our own choices as well next on CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: A "TIME" magazine panel had some early ideas for the magazine's person of the year honor. Karl Rove, called the president's brain by some and the architect of his reelection by the president himself, topped the list for keeping his boss in the White House, a wonderful accomplishment, that. His boss, President Bush, of course, was the person of the year in 2000. He's also on the list for 2004.
Making controversial films landed Mel Gibson and Michael Moore on the list as well. The final choice, of course, is secret until the December 20 issue comes out.
Bob, who would be your person of the year?
NOVAK: My choice of person of the year is John Kerry, because his lousy campaign enabled President Bush to be reelected...
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: ... and the Republicans to gain seats in both the Senate and the House. (CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, I think either Jerry Falwell or Tom DeLay, they are the real faces of the Republican Party, not George Bush or Dick Cheney.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Jerry Falwell, Tom DeLay, who is the sleaziest guy in the House, more ethics violations than anyone in the current House. That's who they pick to lead their party.
BEGALA: From the left, I am Paul Begala.
Tomorrow, we'll be in Little Rock for the opening of the Clinton Presidential Library. It should be great. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: Well, thank goodness I won't be there. I'll be in Washington, safe from the Clintonians.
From the right, Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired November 17, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE: DeLay tactics in Congress. Republicans look for a way to keep their party leader in power if he is indicted by a Texas grand jury. Three of Tom DeLay's associates have already been charged, but DeLay says the Texas probe is just a partisan attack.
REP. TOM DELAY (R-TX), MAJORITY LEADER: We know what the Democrats are going to do in the future. The Democrats have decided that they're going to use politics of personal destruction to gain power, and what we are doing is protecting ourselves from those assaults.
ANNOUNCER: Is this a case of partisan politics or are Republicans rewriting the rules to protect one of their own?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
You know, Mark Twain famously said there's no distinctly native American criminal class, except Congress. Congressional Republicans today proved him right, changing the rules so that their ethically challenged leader, Tom DeLay, can remain in power even if indicted.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Well, Democrats can't seem to beat Tom DeLay in fair-and-square elections, so they're trying to criminalize politics. They failed. Today, the House ruined the Democratic plot to strip Tom DeLay of his leadership position.
Now the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Democrats these days agree John Kerry was a poor candidate. But Senator Kerry, who is on the Senate floor this minute, didn't get the message. Today, he hinted he might run for president again, but didn't he just lose by 3.5 million votes? Senator Kerry points to the close vote in Ohio, which decided the overall Electoral College outcome.
He then said quote -- "50,000 votes, we'd be in a different place." Actually, it would take 60,000 votes. Now, back in 1960, less than 28,000 votes would have flipped two states where votes probably were stolen, Texas and Illinois, and would have made Richard Nixon president, instead of Jack Kennedy. But Nixon didn't complain. Advice to John Kerry, stop whining and get used to it.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: I wouldn't say get used to it. I think your point is right. Let me start with that. Your point is right, that Democrats shouldn't say, well, we only lost by 60,000. No, we lost by 3.5 million. You're right. We should stop whining, but not get used to it. Start fighting. Start deciding what it is Democrats stand for, rebuild this party and get back in there and fight. That's what we need to do, instead of worrying about 50,000...
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: I agree with that, but just from the standpoint of simple accuracy, you didn't lose by 60,000 in Ohio. You lost by 120,000.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: It would take 60,000 to switch it, but John Kerry has never been too good on facts and figures, and he went to 50,000.
BEGALA: Well, are you ready for some nudity? Well, if not, don't watch "Monday Night Football." ABC has made "Monday Night Football" almost unwatchable by using it to showcase right-wing stooges like Dennis Miller, who knew nothing about football. Al Michaels, the play-by-play announcer, is another tomorrow tool. He contributed $2,000 to George W. Bush and he has used his platform at "Monday Night Football" to call Katherine Harris an American heroine, to attack John Kerry, and even to slam me.
But Mr. Michaels' moral superiority was muted when "Monday Night Football" opened this week with a fully naked actress from ABC's "Desperate Housewives" show jumping into the arms of Philadelphia Eagles wide receiver Terrell Owens. Apparently, T.O. made the catch. FCC chairman Michael Powell huffed today, I wonder if Walt Disney would be proud?
Well, I don't know, Mr. Chairman, but Al Michaels' pious, pompous, sanctimonious sermons make me pine for the days of Howard Cosell. Hey, Al, are you ready for some hypocrisy? I'm sick of these guys.
NOVAK: You know, Paul, you say it's unwatchable. You don't watch it, because Dennis Miller hasn't been on in a couple of years.
BEGALA: But Al Michaels is still on, and he stinks.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You'll pardon me. Al Michaels is the best sportscaster America. And you just can't stand anybody, the few of us in communications, who aren't left-wing Democrats.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: Now, I will say -- I will say this. If you ever watched that show, that is one of the best programs on television. Just because he's for George Bush doesn't mean he's not good.
BEGALA: The ratings are tanking. The market works. The ratings are tanking on "Monday Night Football." Get rid of Al Michaels.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Howard Dean is 56 years old today. But it wasn't really that happy a birthday. He got a real birthday nonpresent from Harry Reid. Harry Reid neither looks nor sounds like much, but he may just be the most important Democrat in Washington today. He's the newly elected Senate Democratic leader, who has strong ideas about bringing his party back to power, and he wants no part of Howard Dean.
Senator Reid did not hesitate in endorsing Iowa Governor Tom Vilsack for Democratic national chairman over the little doctor from Vermont. Howard wants to take over the party as much. As Republicans cheer him on, he'll have to roll over the Harry Reids and Tom Vilsacks, and that won't be easy.
BEGALA: No, it won't. And you made the point earlier that Democrats should stop whining. Well, they are. And they are rethinking their party.
Harry Reid, the new Senate leader, is a pro-life Democrat. Tom Vilsack is, I think, much more moderate than Governor Dean is. It looks like he's getting a lot of support for Democratic National Committee chairman. It looks like Democrats are actually starting to get the message that we have to change our party and figure out ways to win, instead of simply whining.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Harry Reid is one of the toughest guys in Washington. He doesn't shout. He doesn't scream. And maybe Howard ought to realize that yelling and screaming doesn't really help you in politics that much.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, I like yelling and screaming, too.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Governor Dean -- I'll say this. He gave my party back its spine when they were all wimping out against Bush on the war. He fought back. And I honor him for that.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, right-wing Senator Rick Santorum once compared adult gay Americans in committed relationships to something he called -- and I'm quoting here -- "man on dog."
But "The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette" reports today that Mr. Morality may be violating the commandment against bearing false witness. The Santorums homeschool their six children. Good for them. But they stick the public schools of Penn Hills, Pennsylvania, where they claim to live, with a whopping $100,000 bill. Bad for them.
When a "Pittsburgh Post-Gazette" reporter knocked on the door of the Santorums' supposed Pennsylvania home, he was greeted by a 25- year-old couple. No sign of the Santorum clan. Senator Santorum does also own a $757,000 home in the suburbs of Washington, D.C. So, could the good senator be fibbing about living in Pennsylvania to take advantage of a state law that requires Pennsylvania taxpayers to subsidize expensive cyber-schooling for his kids?
Virginia has no such law. Perhaps it is time, Senator, to render under Caesar what is Caesar's.
NOVAK: You know, Paul, I think you must that know that many members of Congress for many years have had dual homes, back at home, where their official residence is. And they want to stay with their kids. They want to see their kids every day, as you see your kids every day.
And Rick Santorum has never made a secret of that arrangement.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: And that is just dirty politics to go out and attack that now.
BEGALA: He charged the people of Pennsylvania. He doesn't -- his kids aren't living in Pennsylvania. Why should taxpayers there subsidize his cyber-schooling when he doesn't live there?
Well, anyway, in "Apocalypse Now," Marlon Brando's Colonel Kurtz declared, "As for the charges against me, I'm unconcerned. I'm beyond their timid, lying morality. And so I'm beyond carrying." Today, House Republicans decided their leader is also no longer bound by the standards of morality. We'll debate this case of congressional rule- rigging just ahead.
And then later, who is going to be "TIME" magazine's person of the year? Well, Bob and I have our own nominations later in the CROSSFIRE.
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to CROSSFIRE at the George Washington University, call 202-994-8CNN or visit our Web site. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: House Republicans have found a way to keep a politicized Democratic prosecutor in Texas from forcing Congressman Tom DeLay from the majority leader's chair. The House voted to require a party committee to review any felony indictment of a party leader, then recommend whether the leader should step aside.
Will this stop the partisan witch-hunt or will Democrats, who can't seem to beat DeLay at the ballot box, continue to try to use the courts as their only hope?
Today in the CROSSFIRE, Congresswoman Sheila Jackson, Democrat of Texas, Congressman Anne Northup, Republican of Kentucky.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Good to see you both.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: First, congratulations to both of you on your reelections.
Congresswoman Anne Northup, you once -- your Democrat -- your district was once Democratic. You won it back for your party, or you won it for your party.
REP. ANNE NORTHUP (R), KENTUCKY: Right.
BEGALA: And overwhelmingly reelected just a few weeks ago, fair and square, too, on the level, no allegations of cheating, with the usual high ethical standards that you're known for.
So let me contrast that with the leader of your party in the House, Tom DeLay, my congressman from where I grew up in Texas. Just let me show the greatest hits, the four times that the Ethics Committee has written to him about ethical problems that he has shown; 1997, the Ethics Committee advised Mr. DeLay to avoid suggesting he would grant favors in exchange for campaign contributions. And then in 2004, he hit the trifecta.
The committee, controlled by Republicans in all these cases, by the way, admonished Mr. DeLay for his role in promising...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: It's an even vote. It's not controlled by the Republicans.
BEGALA: But the chair is a Republican.
Admonished Mr. DeLay for his role in promising favors in exchange for a Medicare vote, admonished Mr. DeLay for his role in an energy fund-raiser, and admonished him for using FAA resources from Homeland Security to hunt down Democrats in his state.
Now, my question is, why would such an ethical person as you choose such a slime ball to lead your party?
(APPLAUSE)
NORTHUP: You know, I think that that's a far reach.
But I think what we see going on in Texas is something that is very scary to all of us, and that is somebody who is elected across the state from Tom DeLay can reach across the state, file an indictment. He has got a history of filing false indictments, indictments that never go to trial or indictments where he doesn't get a conviction and be able to take somebody out.
And, you know, I just think that we feel like there should be a much more sober process here than somebody who has a political history.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I appreciate that. But the political history I want to ask you about, though, is the House Ethics Committee, your colleagues, Republicans and Democrats alike, who have cited him four times. Now, by the way, can you tell me any current member of the House who has had more ethical citations than Mr. DeLay?
NORTHUP: Well, me just say that...
BEGALA: There's not any. He's the Hank Aaron of ethics problems.
NORTHUP: Well, but the fact is, is that what is really going on here is that, last spring, you saw the Democrats say, we're going to demonize Tom DeLay. He became the Newt Gingrich of our party. And they've gone after him every single day, every single week.
In my district, they paid for thousands, hundreds of thousands of into all of the residents telling him to call my office.
(CROSSTALK)
NORTHUP: No, it's part of their political game. It's not part of the winning the debate on the war or homeland security or anything else. And I don't think that's the way to conduct public policy.
NOVAK: Congresswoman, let me try to put this in some perspective.
The Texas Democrats, who are a minority party in Texas, had had a gerrymandered congressional delegation controlling a Republican state until Tom DeLay said, hey, we have got to have a fair redistricting. You got a fair redistricting. You lost five seats, a net five seats in Texas, and this is the revenge. And let's see what Tom DeLay has to say in his own defense.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DELAY: We know what the Democrats are going to do in the future. The Democrats have decided that they're going to use politics of personal destruction to gain power, and what we are doing is protecting ourselves from those assaults.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: You can't deny that, can you?
REP. SHEILA JACKSON LEE (D), TEXAS: Bob, you know what? I think if the Republicans could blame fall of Rome on Democrats, they would do so.
(APPLAUSE)
LEE: This is not the fault of Democrats.
And let me be very clear. My good friend and colleague, Anne Northup -- and we work together. But let me be very clear. The district attorney in Austin, Texas, has probably indicted more Democrats than he has indicted Republicans. The Democrats in the House cannot be blamed on grand jurors in Austin, Texas.
I think the real question is that the American people have now been both disappointed and as well left abandoned by the majority in this House, because what will be the call of the day, rather than focusing on Medicare and Social Security reform and the Iraq war, we'll be talking about an ethically challenged majority in the United States Congress, and the American people will lose.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Let me ask you a question. And I know you're a very straight shooter. You'll give me a straight answer. Why is it that the Democrats are raising such a fuss about the idea that, if you get whatever kind of phony indictment, you have to have a rule that the majority leader quits, when you have no such rule in the Democratic Party? Isn't that the height of hypocrisy?
LEE: Let me, first of all, say that we have rules in the Democratic Caucus and they relate to the chairman and the ranking member, but we have the opportunity and option to address...
NOVAK: There's no rule for the leaders.
LEE: We have the opportunity and option to deal with leaders and we have not been confronted in the recent time that Tom DeLay has been in office with this very issue.
NOVAK: Don't disappoint me. Don't disappoint me. You have no rules regarding leaders.
(CROSSTALK) LEE: But we have no block of a rule, which is what the Republican conference did today. They blocked that opportunity for that individual to stay in place.
NOVAK: There's no rule.
BEGALA: Your colleague, Eric Cantor from a real rising star, brilliant guy -- he's been on the show any number of times -- committed the sin of candor, did Congressman Cantor, telling "The Washington Post" this. This is why he says your colleagues and he are trying to get DeLay off the hook, even though he's facing indictment.,
"That's why this proposed rule change is going to pass, assuming it's submitted, because there is tremendous recognition that Tom DeLay led on the issue to produce five more seats." That is to say, the very potentially illegal activity he's being investigated for is what landed your party five more seats. So you are paying him back. So crime does pay. That's the point Mr. Candor is making, isn't it?
NORTHUP: No, no. Eric Cantor is talking about something entirely different. And that is leading the effort to redistrict, so that it reflected what the state's political leanings are.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: But the indictments that have come down so far are directly related to that redistricting fight in Texas. Three DeLay associates already indicted, perhaps Mr. DeLay. I have no idea.
NORTHUP: But the same man -- and let me say, this man, yes, he has indicted Democrats, all who are his political opponents.
But he could top -- people like Kay Bailey Hutchison, Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, imagine if she could be removed from office -- and you're talking about removing him from his office as majority leader -- and the trial never went -- it never went to trial. But five years from now, Tom DeLay could never go to trial, Tom DeLay could be clear, but by then he would be out as majority leader.
NOVAK: Congresswoman, just following up what Anne Northup says, I was down in Texas 10 years ago covering that event. That was an incredible thing. You had a left-wing populist named Jim Maddox (ph) running for the Senate. He had no chance to win. And they were trying to force Ronnie Earle give this phony indictment that she had people on the staff working on a political campaign. That's one of the most shocking things in the world.
And let me just read what you Kay Bailey Hutchison says. "I know" -- And I think Kay Bailey Hutchison is not a radical. She's not somebody who says wild things. "I know he prosecutes for political purposes. He did it to me. And I think it is a very dangerous thing to criminalize politics."
Why don't we have politics out of the criminal justice system, just whether you win the election or not? LEE: You know, there's a major distinction. And, by the way, we all have a great deal of respect for our now senior senator. But it was a great distinction.
First of all, we're talking about an individual in her capacity as an elected official. We're talking now what the leadership of the United States Congress, the Republican conference did to its leader. That is an example that should be set for the American people, that, when you're in a leadership role, leading the majority, you have the responsibility to not be ethically challenged.
This is going to be a problem for the American people. We're going to fail them because we won't be able to deal with the agenda. And let me just say, with respect to our state, about three million of us voted Democratically.
NOVAK: That many?
LEE: So, this state, about three million of us voted. And we're growing in Texas. And the redistricting process is going to be reformed.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You're a minority.
We're going to take a break, though. And next, in "Rapid Fire," we'll ask if the Democrats have any hope of winning back the House in the lifetime of anybody sitting at this table.
And Russia announces it is developing a new nuclear weapon. Wolf Blitzer tells us how U.S. leaders are reacting to this stunning news right after this.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, Vladimir Putin says Russia is developing a new nuclear missile system no other country can match. Is it an echo of the Cold War or just Russian domestic politics?
Kmart and Sears announcing a merger. What does it mean for shoppers?
And remember that U.S. Marine who vanished in Iraq, then turned up safe in Lebanon? There's a strange new twist to this story.
All those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE. BEGALA: Thank you, Wolf. We look forward to your show at the top of the hour.
Time now, though, for "Rapid Fire," where the questions come even faster than Tom DeLay can rack up ethics violation.
In the CROSSFIRE, Republican Congresswoman Anne Northup. She is from Kentucky. And Democratic Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee of the great, great state of Texas.
NOVAK: Sheila Jackson Lee, we're entering the second decade of Republican control of the House of Representatives. Realistically, is there any hope in the foreseeable future that the Democrats will regain control in the House, particularly since they have set the redistricting straight in Texas?
LEE: Well, I absolutely believe that is the case. We do have the opportunity to take back the House. First of all, we won two Republican seats. And if we had not had...
NOVAK: Two?
LEE: We won two Republican seats. If we have not had the blitz, the Alamo, in Texas, we would have not lost in the position that we did.
We are presenting a message to the American people. We were suffering under a presidential victory, but yet we have both the message, we have the leadership, and we have the ethically empowered Democratic Caucus that will say to the American people, we stand with you against special interests.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Let me come back.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Congresswoman Northup, the House Ethics Committee found, as a matter of fact, that Tom DeLay violated House rules by using Homeland Security to track down and hunt Democrats. Was that ethical?
NORTHUP: You know, I'm not -- I have to tell you, I'm not aware of what they found on that.
But the House Ethics Committee gives advice and responds to people that ask questions, a lot of questions. Many, many have been asked about Tom DeLay for political purposes. And I just want to point out that the Democrats today met and yesterday met, and they did not pass a rule like they're criticizing us for to apply to Nancy Pelosi.
So, when the Democrats apply the same standard that they want us to apply to their leaders, we'll have...
(CROSSTALK) (APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Would you be in favor of applying that same standard?
LEE: I think the Democrats would welcome that. We already have rules that deal with our chairman and ranking member.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Congresswoman...
LEE: The question is whether or not we even have the opportunity. Our leaders are ethically empowered, not challenged.
NORTHUP: Oh, my goodness.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Sheila Jackson Lee, thank you very much. Anne Northup, thank you.
LEE: Thank you. Thank you.
NOVAK: You won't believe who's on the short list for "TIME"'s person of the year. We'll tell you who is on the list. And we'll give you our own choices as well next on CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: A "TIME" magazine panel had some early ideas for the magazine's person of the year honor. Karl Rove, called the president's brain by some and the architect of his reelection by the president himself, topped the list for keeping his boss in the White House, a wonderful accomplishment, that. His boss, President Bush, of course, was the person of the year in 2000. He's also on the list for 2004.
Making controversial films landed Mel Gibson and Michael Moore on the list as well. The final choice, of course, is secret until the December 20 issue comes out.
Bob, who would be your person of the year?
NOVAK: My choice of person of the year is John Kerry, because his lousy campaign enabled President Bush to be reelected...
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: ... and the Republicans to gain seats in both the Senate and the House. (CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, I think either Jerry Falwell or Tom DeLay, they are the real faces of the Republican Party, not George Bush or Dick Cheney.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Jerry Falwell, Tom DeLay, who is the sleaziest guy in the House, more ethics violations than anyone in the current House. That's who they pick to lead their party.
BEGALA: From the left, I am Paul Begala.
Tomorrow, we'll be in Little Rock for the opening of the Clinton Presidential Library. It should be great. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: Well, thank goodness I won't be there. I'll be in Washington, safe from the Clintonians.
From the right, Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
