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CNN Crossfire
President Bush Names New Homeland Security Nominee
Aired January 11, 2005 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, Paul Begala; sitting in on the right, Joe Watkins.
In the CROSSFIRE: President Bush names his choice to lead the Department of Homeland Security. The face may not be familiar, but Judge Michael Chertoff is no stranger to public service.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In all of his roles, Mike has shown a deep commitment to the cause of justice and an unwavering determination to protect the American people.
MICHAEL CHERTOFF, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY NOMINEE: If confirmed, I pledge to devote all my energy to promoting our homeland security and, as important, to preserving our fundamental liberties.
ANNOUNCER: Is Chertoff the right man for the job? Will his role in the investigation of the Clintons and Whitewater play any role in his nomination?
And Howard Dean says he wants to lead the Democratic Party. Will Democrats put him in charge?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Joe Watkins.
(APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
President Bush's first choice for homeland security secretary, former New York top cop Bernard Kerik, went down in flames, so now Mr. Bush wants to replace the current homeland security chief, the decorated combat veteran Tom Ridge, not with a cop or a soldier, but with a lawyer who served as a deputy to such luminaries as John Ashcroft and Al D'Amato.
Critics say he lacks experience in management or intelligence or national security, so is Michael Chertoff the best man for the job? We will debate that and then take a look at Howard Dean's candidacy for the DNC, that is the Democratic National Committee, chairmanship.
Today, I'm joined in the CROSSFIRE by Republican strategist and frequent CROSSFIRE guest host, my friend Joe Watkins.
JOE WATKINS, CO-HOST: Thanks, Paul. Good to be back. Good to be back.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back. This should be a fun program.
We have a lot to debate.
WATKINS: Yes, we do.
BEGALA: But we will begin as we always do, with the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
WATKINS: Howard Dean officially announced he's running for the chairmanship of the Democratic National Committee today. The Republican response to that news? Yeeha!
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
WATKINS: Dean, who is pro-choice, will absolutely be no help in bridging the values divide that is plaguing the Democrats. Instead, Democrats should give strong consideration to pro-lifer Tim Roemer and his red state values.
But one state party chairs says it would be extremely foolish for Democrats to choose someone who opposes abortion rights. Making things even more interesting may be the entry of abortion rights activist Kate Michelman into the fray. This sound like it is shaping up to be not only a race for DNC chair, but what the Democratic Party wants to be about. As a Republican, I'll find it interesting to watch this family feud unfold.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: And so it will.
But I wouldn't reduce it just to abortion. The new leader of the Democrats in the Senate, Henry Reid, is pro-life. I don't see very many pro-choice leaders at the Republican Party, so my party actually is beginning, finally, and belatedly I think, to reach out to pro-life Democrats. And Harry Reid is a good example of it.
WATKINS: That's a good thing. That's a good thing.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It is. But when will Republicans reach out to pro- choicers?
WATKINS: Well, I think it's good for the process for people with all kinds of reliefs to be involved. And it's good for the Democrats to reach out to Democrats who have strong -- who are strong on the values issues. I think that's a good thing for Americans.
BEGALA: Absolutely.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: The current Republican chairman was a lobbyist for Enron. What makes him an expert on lobby -- on values? My goodness.
Well, anyway, on this broadcast yesterday, I strongly defended the right of President Bush and his supporters to have a full-blown celebration of his inaugural, despite the ongoing war in Iraq. I was proud to do so because the inaugural celebrates not just President Bush, but the American presidency itself, an unbroken chain of leaders going all the way back to George Washington, another George W., in 1879.
This inauguration is indeed for all Americans. But that is why it so distressing to learn that the Bush administration is sticking residents of the District of Columbia with a $12 million bill for the extra security required by the inauguration. Look, we ought to spend whatever it takes to keep our inauguration safe, but all Americans should pay that cost. And it is especially galling that President Bush is leaving district residents holding the bag, since they have no vote in Congress.
If you ask me, they deserve better from their most famous and powerful resident.
(APPLAUSE)
WATKINS: Well, Paul, you're absolutely right to defend the president's right to celebrate the inaugural. It's all about the presidency of the United States and that's bigger than Democratic or Republican politics. That's about all of us Americans, which is a wonderful thing.
But, remember, the district gets money. They get nearly a quarter of a billion dollars in...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... homeland security. We were attacked...
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: They also get money...
BEGALA: New York and Washington were the only two places targeted by the terrorists. We should get aid.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: And it shouldn't be paying for the inaugural. The citizens should. The taxpayers of whole country should. Anyway, we'll pick that up again later.
(APPLAUSE)
WATKINS: Absolutely.
President Bush presided over a panel discussion on Social Security today, reiterating his position that the system is in need of long-term overhaul. The president wants to make up for projected shortfalls in the system in the next 50 years by allowing workers to invest some Social Security funds in private accounts. It's a good idea. And the president is showing that he is a courageous leader by choosing to address this issue now.
He could easily ignore it. Benefits won't run out on his watch, but the president understands, when it comes to threats to Americans, whether they're financial, military or terrorists, you can deal with them now or you can deal with them later. And he's not the type to run from a problem.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: He's the type to create a problem. Wait a minute. What about fiscal...
WATKINS: Got to fix it. Got to fix it.
BEGALA: First off, what about the fiscal crisis he created? He added $5 trillion to the debt? His cockamamie Social Security...
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: Jobs are coming back at a record pace.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: That's nonsense.
WATKINS: This president is doing a great job with the economy.
BEGALA: How are you going to pay for it? How are you going to pay for it? It costs $2 trillion. How are we going to pay for it? You going to borrow it, raise taxes or cut spending?
WATKINS: There's going to be some short-term pain, but long-term gain.
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: It means the system in the long term doesn't fail.
BEGALA: Cut benefits.
WATKINS: It means that people down the road, future retirees, will have benefits.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: The White House memo said they're going to cut benefits for Social Security. This is George W. Bush's shell game to cut benefits for Social Security.
WATKINS: Private investment accounts -- private investment accounts give individuals a chance to make more money.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: No, it forces them to give their money to Enron and Exxon and Halliburton, instead of leaving Social Security where it's safe.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: All right, well, believe it. We'll have a lot of debates on Social Security.
But just before President Bush invaded Iraq back in 2003, his holiness Pope John Paul II sent his personal emissary to try to talk George Bush out of it. Cardinal Pio Laghi was the Vatican's first papal nuncio in America. And he has a long, close relationship both with President Bush and with his father.
But the president ignored the pope's plea and invaded Iraq anyway. And now Cardinal Laghi says that President Bush broke his word -- quote -- "When I went to Washington as the pope's envoy just before the outbreak of the war in Iraq," the cardinal said, "he" -- President Bush, that is -- "told me, don't worry, Your Eminence. We'll be quick and do well in Iraq. Unfortunately," the cardinal continues, "the facts have demonstrated afterward that things took a different course not rapid and not favorable. Bush was wrong" -- unquote.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, yes, Your Eminence, he was. If it makes you feel any better, you're not the only one George W. Bush misled about this god-awful war.
WATKINS: No, the president did not mislead anybody. And he said there are going to be some bumps in the road.
BEGALA: He misled a cardinal. He's a cardinal, man.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
WATKINS: Who better to understand ministers than me? I'm an ordained minister and a pastor of a church.
BEGALA: It shouldn't bother you if he misleads you?
WATKINS: I have the highest respect for the pope, the highest regard for his eminence. And he's the spiritual leader of millions of believing people around the world. But... (CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Including me. I don't like it when our president misleads him.
WATKINS: But George Bush was elected to protect the American people and to lead the American people.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: He has protected us from nothing in Iraq.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
WATKINS: Absolutely.
BEGALA: He's got us stranded over there.
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: This president is doing his job in the cause of freedom.
BEGALA: Remember that ad, it's not nice to fool Mother Nature? It ain't nice to lie to the pope either.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Anyway, he wasn't -- he was not on anyone's short list to run Homeland Security, at least not anyone's except President Bush's, the only list that matters. But with no experience in policing or intelligence or immigration or homeland defense, is Michael Chertoff really the best choice to keep America safe or is he merely a Republican that they could put in what should be a nonpartisan post? We'll debate that in a moment.
And then Howard Dean says he wants to run again, but this time for the head of the Democratic National Committee. We'll debate who my party ought to put in charge later in the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
President Bush today surprised a lot of us here in Washington with his choice of Judge Michael Chertoff to be the next secretary of homeland security. Former prosecutor, now a federal appeals court judge, will step into one of the most challenging management posts in all of government, overseeing agencies as diverse as the Secret Service and the Coast Guard, the Immigration Service and those fine folks who frisk us at the airport. Is he the best person for the job? Here to debate that, Victoria Toensing. She's a former federal prosecutor, a Justice Department official in the terrorism unit herself. And Eleanor Holmes Norton, she's the District of Columbia's delegate to the United States Congress.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Good to see you both.
Victoria, a quick rundown of the guy's resume, two years as a bureaucrat in the Justice Department, a little over a year as a judge, very little...
VICTORIA TOENSING, FORMER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Bureaucrat. Assistant attorney general, that's not a bureaucrat.
BEGALA: It's a bureaucracy.
TOENSING: No, no, no. It is a policy job, because I was deputy assistant attorney general. It is a policy job, trust me.
BEGALA: Well, two years in the Justice Department under John Ashcroft.
TOENSING: Yes. OK. There we go.
BEGALA: Very little management experience, other than that, no experience in intelligence, no experience in policing, no experience in national security, vast experience, however, investigating Whitewater. So, if bin Laden gets in a land deal, I guess we have our man, don't we?
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: This is a crazy choice, isn't it?
TOENSING: It is such a brilliant, a brilliant choice that I'm really sad that I didn't think of it myself.
BEGALA: Really? So we need a Whitewater lawyer?
TOENSING: How many people can even say they've been in all three branches of the government at a high position he was? He is on the 3rd Circuit, the court just under the Supreme Court.
BEGALA: Right.
TOENSING: Assistant attorney general. I was the deputy there. I know what that job entails. You say that doesn't involve intelligence? Are you kidding? It absolutely not only involves intelligence, but I had all the terrorism cases under me. That was under Michael Chertoff, because he was there in the aftermath of 9/11.
He has more experience than anybody you could possibly name.
BEGALA: So, two years, two years under John Ashcroft and a couple of months on the federal bench.
(CROSSTALK)
TOENSING: And four years as U.S. attorney.
BEGALA: And before that, he worked for Al D'Amato as a partisan hack Republican lawyer going after young people and running up their legal bills in Whitewater, right?
(CROSSTALK)
TOENSING: He was U.S. attorney in New Jersey. He prosecuted people like the mafia.
WATKINS: Congresswoman, Congresswoman, the question here is that, obviously, there are folks that want to politicize this, make a political football out of this thing. But here's a guy who has had strong support. After all, he was confirmed three times in the past by the U.S. Senate.
In this particular round, he has got the strong support of his home state senators, both Democrats, Corzine and Lautenberg. He's got the support of Senator Leahy from Vermont, overwhelming praise for this guy from a lot of Democrats, people not in his own party. And, so, isn't any grumbling at this point, given the fact that he has such strong support from Democrats, going to be a little more than just trying to score points against the White House?
ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (D), WASHINGTON, D.C. DELEGATE: The man will probably be confirmed. But I am a member of the Homeland Security Committee, so I approach this in a different way.
WATKINS: So it's not about politics for you.
NORTON: For me, it's not. It's about homeland security.
Look, the president started out with an appointee who had run a police department, as it turned out, 40,000 people. Now he's got a lawyer who ran 800 lawyers and then went on the bench, where he ran nobody but himself. Now...
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: This is a guy that got rid of the mafia. He helped Giuliani get rid of the mafia in New York City. This is a tough guy.
(CROSSTALK)
NORTON: Can he get rid of bin Laden is what the American people want to know.
WATKINS: Absolutely. Absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
NORTON: Not the mafia.
WATKINS: This is a guy that is pulling...
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: ... to get rid of bin Laden after September 11.
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: No doubt.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... going to subpoena bin Laden, by gosh.
TOENSING: Let me tell you what a manager he is, because I was so impressed. Let me -- I know the department intimately and I have for almost 30 years of criminal law practice.
For the first time that I have ever seen in my practice, I saw an assistant attorney general say to a bunch of U.S. attorneys all over the country -- it was like putting Jell-O together and yet making it organized -- we are going to prosecute the terrorism outside of the Justice -- inside the Justice Department, not outside with you all in all these different districts.
It is going to be coordinated inside the department. Never seen that before.
BEGALA: Let me ask what this says about the president, though. During the campaign, one of the biggest issues that President Bush and Vice President Cheney raised was the notion that terrorism should not be treated like a law enforcement issue. Here's an ad that they ran.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AD)
NARRATOR: Kerry said defeating terrorism was really more about law enforcement and intelligence than a strong military operation, more about law enforcement than a strong military.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: So, why put a guy who, at best, you say, has two years of experience in law enforcement, instead of a military person there? Why not General Barry McCaffrey? Why not General Anthony Zinni? Why not somebody who has actually killed the enemy and taken ground, which is the purpose of a war, which is what we ought to be fighting against the terrorists?
TOENSING: You know, what I really find amazing is this argument about lack of management ability, when a member of Congress who has never managed a staff over 50... BEGALA: The question was, why law enforcement, instead of military, when he ran a campaign saying I will have a military campaign , not law enforcement.
TOENSING: But that's just one of his experiences. He was in private practice. He was U.S. attorney.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He's a lawyer. He's probably beaten a lot of parking tickets.
(CROSSTALK)
TOENSING: Is lawyer a bad word now?
(LAUGHTER)
WATKINS: Congresswoman, Congresswoman, this is key here. Today, it just came out, the percentage of Americans who think terrorism in the United States over the next several weeks -- will take place in the U.S. in the next several weeks is down to its lowest level since September 11. It's 37 percent. That is a wonderful number, that the Americans feel that confident.
Now, you've got to give the man his props. Isn't this a sign that the security measures that the Bush administration has taken has helped to secure the country and given people a greater sense of security?
NORTON: Look...
WATKINS: Come on, you have to support it.
NORTON: Look, the causation here we can argue about.
The fact is that the further you get from 9/11 or from orange alerts, the more people feel relaxed and say I'm not afraid of terrorism.
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: But hasn't this administration taken all the steps necessary?
NORTON: What you want is -- what you want is a whole is a homeland security director that keeps that confidence up. I'm not sure a practicing lawyer or a judge...
WATKINS: We've had one and we're about to get another one.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Let me follow it with another poll from that same poll, actually, another question, a CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll out this week. We asked this question. Is America winning the war on terrorism?
Now, a year ago, the majority of Americans thought yes, 51 percent. Today, it's down to 37 percent, not exactly a vote of confidence, actually, in our Homeland Security Department, is it?
TOENSING: You know what I hope the new secretary, Chertoff, is going to do? Ignore the CNN polls, because their wording means nothing.
(APPLAUSE)
TOENSING: It means not one whit.
BEGALA: But that doesn't bother you...
TOENSING: He is going to go in there.
You know, god bless Michael Chertoff for doing this.
BEGALA: He's going to serve some subpoenas on al Qaeda, right? He's going to be the toughest lawyer there.
(CROSSTALK)
TOENSING: He could be sitting there relaxed on the 3rd Circuit...
(CROSSTALK)
TOENSING: ... not having to leave the building for lunch. He could be making seven figures at a private law firm. And God bless him. He answered the president's...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, I wish he were, instead of messing around with our homeland security, where we had a competent person in there.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Let him go make money.
That will have to be it. Victoria Toensing from the right and from the Justice Department, thank you very much. Eleanor Homes Norton, D.C.'s delegate to the United States Congress, thank you both very much.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Next, who should the Democrats put in charge of their party as they try to regroup and run for 2006? Howard Dean throws his hat in the ring. We'll debate his latest campaign in just a moment.
And just ahead, Wolf Blitzer will have the latest for us on rescue efforts following deadly mudslides in California.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, evacuation. Thousands ordered now to flee the flooding in Orange County, California. I'll speak with the sheriff's office.
Targeted for terror. Violence rages ahead of Iraq's voting. Why are police under siege?
Randy Johnson's run-in. The Big Unit, as he's called, makes himself at home in the Big Apple, but he may not be making many friends.
All those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
BEGALA: Thank you, Wolf. We look forward to that report.
Here at CROSSFIRE, as we told you earlier, Howard Dean announced his candidacy for the Democratic National Committee chairmanship today. Not surprisingly, he's a rather controversial candidate in some quarters.
Joining us is California Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren, a Democrat and a Dean supporter.
Congresswoman Lofgren, good to see you again.
REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D), CALIFORNIA: Good afternoon.
WATKINS: Congresswoman, here's one reason why Republicans are so excited about Dean's announcement to run for the chair of the DNC. Run the clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And New York. And we're going to South Dakota and Oregon and Washington and Michigan! And then we're going to Washington, D.C., to take back the White House. Yes!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
WATKINS: That's your man. Now, isn't part of the Democratic Party wish that Dean gets the DNC chair, so that he won't try another bid for the White House in 2008? LOFGREN: Well, we're hopeful that Howard Dean will be elected DNC chair. He is a guy with tremendous experience, former governor, a former lieutenant governor. He was president of the Democratic Governors Association and the U.S. Governors Association. He's smart. He's technically astute.
And I think you will be surprised by the depth and breadth of his support inside the Democratic Party, because we know he is someone who can get us better organized so that we can win elections. And, you know, you can run his scream spiel all you want, but we do think that and I do think that he is the absolute best choice for our party at this time, so that we can win in 2006.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, Congresswoman Lofgren, you use the phrase better organized.
Let me tell you, the current chairman, Terry McAuliffe is, by my lights, as good a chairman as I have ever seen in 21 years in American politics in either party. He came in. He had a $18 million debt. He raised $525 million. We leave with a -- he leaves with a surplus now. He had absolutely no names in a voter file. He now has 175 million names in a voter file.
He had 70,000 e-mails addresses when he came in. He got four million today. And yet many in the Dean camp are taking shots at Terry McAuliffe. Do you and does Howard Dean believe he was a great chairman and will you try to continue his legacy or how are you going to change it?
LOFGREN: The governor is not taking any shots at Terry. He is -- as a matter of fact, today, and in announcement, he gave credit to Terry for the financial stats and the additional e-mails and the like.
But we also need to take another step forward in terms of the Internet and other technology tools that need to be used to continue the fund-raising and really to also build the party not just in the DNC, but in the 50 states. This needs to be a 50-state strategy. And that's what Governor Dean hopes to accomplish and I think that he can accomplish.
WATKINS: Well, you know, the Clintons were given a lot of credit for working against Dean's presidential bid the last time. Do you think that they're going to work now to block his becoming the head of the DNC?
LOFGREN: I haven't seen any signs of that. And I doubt it very much.
The Clintons want Democrats to win, just as I do. And Howard did mention today and also in his announcement that if he is elected DNC chair, he believes it would preclude a run for the presidency four years from now. So, that may or may not be a factor for the Clintons.
BEGALA: Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren, thank you very much for joining us.
LOFGREN: Thank you.
BEGALA: From California.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: I will say, by the way, as a former Clinton aide who talks to the Clintons all the time, they never once said to me that they didn't want Howard Dean to be the nominee and they never entered into that campaign in any way.
But, anyway, what happens when an actor and a talk show host square off? Well, George Clooney has issued a tough challenge to Bill O'Reilly. We'll tell you all about it when CROSSFIRE returns.
Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Actor George Clooney and fa -- Fox News talk show host Bill O'Reilly are -- that was a Freudian slip, Bill. I meant Fox News.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Are sparring over a star-studded telethon to raise money for tsunami victims. How can that be, you might ask.
Well, on his show last week, Mr. O'Reilly said he would -- quote -- "be watching" -- unquote -- to see if the money actually gets to the victims. He warned that, "if it doesn't," his words again, "there will be trouble" -- unquote.
Well, that didn't sit too kindly with Mr. Clooney, one of the organizers of the event. He responded by inviting Mr. O'Reilly to join the telethon him as a presenter, challenging him to -- quote -- "put your considerable money where your considerable mouth is" -- unquote.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Nicely put, George.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, O'Reilly -- O'Reilly says he's considering Clooney's offer. And, look, if helping tsunami victims can united former rivals like Presidents George Bush and Bill Clinton, let's hope it can bring together Messrs. Clooney and O'Reilly as well.
WATKINS: Absolutely. I think it's a good cause. Hopefully, it will bring the two guys together and raise a lot of money for a lot people who need it.
BEGALA: Amen. Wonderfully put.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Thank you, Joe. Appreciate that.
From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
WATKINS: From the right, I'm Joe Watkins. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
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Aired January 11, 2005 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, Paul Begala; sitting in on the right, Joe Watkins.
In the CROSSFIRE: President Bush names his choice to lead the Department of Homeland Security. The face may not be familiar, but Judge Michael Chertoff is no stranger to public service.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In all of his roles, Mike has shown a deep commitment to the cause of justice and an unwavering determination to protect the American people.
MICHAEL CHERTOFF, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY NOMINEE: If confirmed, I pledge to devote all my energy to promoting our homeland security and, as important, to preserving our fundamental liberties.
ANNOUNCER: Is Chertoff the right man for the job? Will his role in the investigation of the Clintons and Whitewater play any role in his nomination?
And Howard Dean says he wants to lead the Democratic Party. Will Democrats put him in charge?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Joe Watkins.
(APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
President Bush's first choice for homeland security secretary, former New York top cop Bernard Kerik, went down in flames, so now Mr. Bush wants to replace the current homeland security chief, the decorated combat veteran Tom Ridge, not with a cop or a soldier, but with a lawyer who served as a deputy to such luminaries as John Ashcroft and Al D'Amato.
Critics say he lacks experience in management or intelligence or national security, so is Michael Chertoff the best man for the job? We will debate that and then take a look at Howard Dean's candidacy for the DNC, that is the Democratic National Committee, chairmanship.
Today, I'm joined in the CROSSFIRE by Republican strategist and frequent CROSSFIRE guest host, my friend Joe Watkins.
JOE WATKINS, CO-HOST: Thanks, Paul. Good to be back. Good to be back.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back. This should be a fun program.
We have a lot to debate.
WATKINS: Yes, we do.
BEGALA: But we will begin as we always do, with the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
WATKINS: Howard Dean officially announced he's running for the chairmanship of the Democratic National Committee today. The Republican response to that news? Yeeha!
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
WATKINS: Dean, who is pro-choice, will absolutely be no help in bridging the values divide that is plaguing the Democrats. Instead, Democrats should give strong consideration to pro-lifer Tim Roemer and his red state values.
But one state party chairs says it would be extremely foolish for Democrats to choose someone who opposes abortion rights. Making things even more interesting may be the entry of abortion rights activist Kate Michelman into the fray. This sound like it is shaping up to be not only a race for DNC chair, but what the Democratic Party wants to be about. As a Republican, I'll find it interesting to watch this family feud unfold.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: And so it will.
But I wouldn't reduce it just to abortion. The new leader of the Democrats in the Senate, Henry Reid, is pro-life. I don't see very many pro-choice leaders at the Republican Party, so my party actually is beginning, finally, and belatedly I think, to reach out to pro-life Democrats. And Harry Reid is a good example of it.
WATKINS: That's a good thing. That's a good thing.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: It is. But when will Republicans reach out to pro- choicers?
WATKINS: Well, I think it's good for the process for people with all kinds of reliefs to be involved. And it's good for the Democrats to reach out to Democrats who have strong -- who are strong on the values issues. I think that's a good thing for Americans.
BEGALA: Absolutely.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: The current Republican chairman was a lobbyist for Enron. What makes him an expert on lobby -- on values? My goodness.
Well, anyway, on this broadcast yesterday, I strongly defended the right of President Bush and his supporters to have a full-blown celebration of his inaugural, despite the ongoing war in Iraq. I was proud to do so because the inaugural celebrates not just President Bush, but the American presidency itself, an unbroken chain of leaders going all the way back to George Washington, another George W., in 1879.
This inauguration is indeed for all Americans. But that is why it so distressing to learn that the Bush administration is sticking residents of the District of Columbia with a $12 million bill for the extra security required by the inauguration. Look, we ought to spend whatever it takes to keep our inauguration safe, but all Americans should pay that cost. And it is especially galling that President Bush is leaving district residents holding the bag, since they have no vote in Congress.
If you ask me, they deserve better from their most famous and powerful resident.
(APPLAUSE)
WATKINS: Well, Paul, you're absolutely right to defend the president's right to celebrate the inaugural. It's all about the presidency of the United States and that's bigger than Democratic or Republican politics. That's about all of us Americans, which is a wonderful thing.
But, remember, the district gets money. They get nearly a quarter of a billion dollars in...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... homeland security. We were attacked...
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: They also get money...
BEGALA: New York and Washington were the only two places targeted by the terrorists. We should get aid.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: And it shouldn't be paying for the inaugural. The citizens should. The taxpayers of whole country should. Anyway, we'll pick that up again later.
(APPLAUSE)
WATKINS: Absolutely.
President Bush presided over a panel discussion on Social Security today, reiterating his position that the system is in need of long-term overhaul. The president wants to make up for projected shortfalls in the system in the next 50 years by allowing workers to invest some Social Security funds in private accounts. It's a good idea. And the president is showing that he is a courageous leader by choosing to address this issue now.
He could easily ignore it. Benefits won't run out on his watch, but the president understands, when it comes to threats to Americans, whether they're financial, military or terrorists, you can deal with them now or you can deal with them later. And he's not the type to run from a problem.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: He's the type to create a problem. Wait a minute. What about fiscal...
WATKINS: Got to fix it. Got to fix it.
BEGALA: First off, what about the fiscal crisis he created? He added $5 trillion to the debt? His cockamamie Social Security...
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: Jobs are coming back at a record pace.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: That's nonsense.
WATKINS: This president is doing a great job with the economy.
BEGALA: How are you going to pay for it? How are you going to pay for it? It costs $2 trillion. How are we going to pay for it? You going to borrow it, raise taxes or cut spending?
WATKINS: There's going to be some short-term pain, but long-term gain.
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: It means the system in the long term doesn't fail.
BEGALA: Cut benefits.
WATKINS: It means that people down the road, future retirees, will have benefits.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: The White House memo said they're going to cut benefits for Social Security. This is George W. Bush's shell game to cut benefits for Social Security.
WATKINS: Private investment accounts -- private investment accounts give individuals a chance to make more money.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: No, it forces them to give their money to Enron and Exxon and Halliburton, instead of leaving Social Security where it's safe.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: All right, well, believe it. We'll have a lot of debates on Social Security.
But just before President Bush invaded Iraq back in 2003, his holiness Pope John Paul II sent his personal emissary to try to talk George Bush out of it. Cardinal Pio Laghi was the Vatican's first papal nuncio in America. And he has a long, close relationship both with President Bush and with his father.
But the president ignored the pope's plea and invaded Iraq anyway. And now Cardinal Laghi says that President Bush broke his word -- quote -- "When I went to Washington as the pope's envoy just before the outbreak of the war in Iraq," the cardinal said, "he" -- President Bush, that is -- "told me, don't worry, Your Eminence. We'll be quick and do well in Iraq. Unfortunately," the cardinal continues, "the facts have demonstrated afterward that things took a different course not rapid and not favorable. Bush was wrong" -- unquote.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, yes, Your Eminence, he was. If it makes you feel any better, you're not the only one George W. Bush misled about this god-awful war.
WATKINS: No, the president did not mislead anybody. And he said there are going to be some bumps in the road.
BEGALA: He misled a cardinal. He's a cardinal, man.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
WATKINS: Who better to understand ministers than me? I'm an ordained minister and a pastor of a church.
BEGALA: It shouldn't bother you if he misleads you?
WATKINS: I have the highest respect for the pope, the highest regard for his eminence. And he's the spiritual leader of millions of believing people around the world. But... (CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Including me. I don't like it when our president misleads him.
WATKINS: But George Bush was elected to protect the American people and to lead the American people.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: He has protected us from nothing in Iraq.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
WATKINS: Absolutely.
BEGALA: He's got us stranded over there.
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: This president is doing his job in the cause of freedom.
BEGALA: Remember that ad, it's not nice to fool Mother Nature? It ain't nice to lie to the pope either.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Anyway, he wasn't -- he was not on anyone's short list to run Homeland Security, at least not anyone's except President Bush's, the only list that matters. But with no experience in policing or intelligence or immigration or homeland defense, is Michael Chertoff really the best choice to keep America safe or is he merely a Republican that they could put in what should be a nonpartisan post? We'll debate that in a moment.
And then Howard Dean says he wants to run again, but this time for the head of the Democratic National Committee. We'll debate who my party ought to put in charge later in the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
President Bush today surprised a lot of us here in Washington with his choice of Judge Michael Chertoff to be the next secretary of homeland security. Former prosecutor, now a federal appeals court judge, will step into one of the most challenging management posts in all of government, overseeing agencies as diverse as the Secret Service and the Coast Guard, the Immigration Service and those fine folks who frisk us at the airport. Is he the best person for the job? Here to debate that, Victoria Toensing. She's a former federal prosecutor, a Justice Department official in the terrorism unit herself. And Eleanor Holmes Norton, she's the District of Columbia's delegate to the United States Congress.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Good to see you both.
Victoria, a quick rundown of the guy's resume, two years as a bureaucrat in the Justice Department, a little over a year as a judge, very little...
VICTORIA TOENSING, FORMER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Bureaucrat. Assistant attorney general, that's not a bureaucrat.
BEGALA: It's a bureaucracy.
TOENSING: No, no, no. It is a policy job, because I was deputy assistant attorney general. It is a policy job, trust me.
BEGALA: Well, two years in the Justice Department under John Ashcroft.
TOENSING: Yes. OK. There we go.
BEGALA: Very little management experience, other than that, no experience in intelligence, no experience in policing, no experience in national security, vast experience, however, investigating Whitewater. So, if bin Laden gets in a land deal, I guess we have our man, don't we?
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: This is a crazy choice, isn't it?
TOENSING: It is such a brilliant, a brilliant choice that I'm really sad that I didn't think of it myself.
BEGALA: Really? So we need a Whitewater lawyer?
TOENSING: How many people can even say they've been in all three branches of the government at a high position he was? He is on the 3rd Circuit, the court just under the Supreme Court.
BEGALA: Right.
TOENSING: Assistant attorney general. I was the deputy there. I know what that job entails. You say that doesn't involve intelligence? Are you kidding? It absolutely not only involves intelligence, but I had all the terrorism cases under me. That was under Michael Chertoff, because he was there in the aftermath of 9/11.
He has more experience than anybody you could possibly name.
BEGALA: So, two years, two years under John Ashcroft and a couple of months on the federal bench.
(CROSSTALK)
TOENSING: And four years as U.S. attorney.
BEGALA: And before that, he worked for Al D'Amato as a partisan hack Republican lawyer going after young people and running up their legal bills in Whitewater, right?
(CROSSTALK)
TOENSING: He was U.S. attorney in New Jersey. He prosecuted people like the mafia.
WATKINS: Congresswoman, Congresswoman, the question here is that, obviously, there are folks that want to politicize this, make a political football out of this thing. But here's a guy who has had strong support. After all, he was confirmed three times in the past by the U.S. Senate.
In this particular round, he has got the strong support of his home state senators, both Democrats, Corzine and Lautenberg. He's got the support of Senator Leahy from Vermont, overwhelming praise for this guy from a lot of Democrats, people not in his own party. And, so, isn't any grumbling at this point, given the fact that he has such strong support from Democrats, going to be a little more than just trying to score points against the White House?
ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (D), WASHINGTON, D.C. DELEGATE: The man will probably be confirmed. But I am a member of the Homeland Security Committee, so I approach this in a different way.
WATKINS: So it's not about politics for you.
NORTON: For me, it's not. It's about homeland security.
Look, the president started out with an appointee who had run a police department, as it turned out, 40,000 people. Now he's got a lawyer who ran 800 lawyers and then went on the bench, where he ran nobody but himself. Now...
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: This is a guy that got rid of the mafia. He helped Giuliani get rid of the mafia in New York City. This is a tough guy.
(CROSSTALK)
NORTON: Can he get rid of bin Laden is what the American people want to know.
WATKINS: Absolutely. Absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
NORTON: Not the mafia.
WATKINS: This is a guy that is pulling...
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: ... to get rid of bin Laden after September 11.
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: No doubt.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... going to subpoena bin Laden, by gosh.
TOENSING: Let me tell you what a manager he is, because I was so impressed. Let me -- I know the department intimately and I have for almost 30 years of criminal law practice.
For the first time that I have ever seen in my practice, I saw an assistant attorney general say to a bunch of U.S. attorneys all over the country -- it was like putting Jell-O together and yet making it organized -- we are going to prosecute the terrorism outside of the Justice -- inside the Justice Department, not outside with you all in all these different districts.
It is going to be coordinated inside the department. Never seen that before.
BEGALA: Let me ask what this says about the president, though. During the campaign, one of the biggest issues that President Bush and Vice President Cheney raised was the notion that terrorism should not be treated like a law enforcement issue. Here's an ad that they ran.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AD)
NARRATOR: Kerry said defeating terrorism was really more about law enforcement and intelligence than a strong military operation, more about law enforcement than a strong military.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: So, why put a guy who, at best, you say, has two years of experience in law enforcement, instead of a military person there? Why not General Barry McCaffrey? Why not General Anthony Zinni? Why not somebody who has actually killed the enemy and taken ground, which is the purpose of a war, which is what we ought to be fighting against the terrorists?
TOENSING: You know, what I really find amazing is this argument about lack of management ability, when a member of Congress who has never managed a staff over 50... BEGALA: The question was, why law enforcement, instead of military, when he ran a campaign saying I will have a military campaign , not law enforcement.
TOENSING: But that's just one of his experiences. He was in private practice. He was U.S. attorney.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He's a lawyer. He's probably beaten a lot of parking tickets.
(CROSSTALK)
TOENSING: Is lawyer a bad word now?
(LAUGHTER)
WATKINS: Congresswoman, Congresswoman, this is key here. Today, it just came out, the percentage of Americans who think terrorism in the United States over the next several weeks -- will take place in the U.S. in the next several weeks is down to its lowest level since September 11. It's 37 percent. That is a wonderful number, that the Americans feel that confident.
Now, you've got to give the man his props. Isn't this a sign that the security measures that the Bush administration has taken has helped to secure the country and given people a greater sense of security?
NORTON: Look...
WATKINS: Come on, you have to support it.
NORTON: Look, the causation here we can argue about.
The fact is that the further you get from 9/11 or from orange alerts, the more people feel relaxed and say I'm not afraid of terrorism.
(CROSSTALK)
WATKINS: But hasn't this administration taken all the steps necessary?
NORTON: What you want is -- what you want is a whole is a homeland security director that keeps that confidence up. I'm not sure a practicing lawyer or a judge...
WATKINS: We've had one and we're about to get another one.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Let me follow it with another poll from that same poll, actually, another question, a CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll out this week. We asked this question. Is America winning the war on terrorism?
Now, a year ago, the majority of Americans thought yes, 51 percent. Today, it's down to 37 percent, not exactly a vote of confidence, actually, in our Homeland Security Department, is it?
TOENSING: You know what I hope the new secretary, Chertoff, is going to do? Ignore the CNN polls, because their wording means nothing.
(APPLAUSE)
TOENSING: It means not one whit.
BEGALA: But that doesn't bother you...
TOENSING: He is going to go in there.
You know, god bless Michael Chertoff for doing this.
BEGALA: He's going to serve some subpoenas on al Qaeda, right? He's going to be the toughest lawyer there.
(CROSSTALK)
TOENSING: He could be sitting there relaxed on the 3rd Circuit...
(CROSSTALK)
TOENSING: ... not having to leave the building for lunch. He could be making seven figures at a private law firm. And God bless him. He answered the president's...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, I wish he were, instead of messing around with our homeland security, where we had a competent person in there.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Let him go make money.
That will have to be it. Victoria Toensing from the right and from the Justice Department, thank you very much. Eleanor Homes Norton, D.C.'s delegate to the United States Congress, thank you both very much.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Next, who should the Democrats put in charge of their party as they try to regroup and run for 2006? Howard Dean throws his hat in the ring. We'll debate his latest campaign in just a moment.
And just ahead, Wolf Blitzer will have the latest for us on rescue efforts following deadly mudslides in California.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, evacuation. Thousands ordered now to flee the flooding in Orange County, California. I'll speak with the sheriff's office.
Targeted for terror. Violence rages ahead of Iraq's voting. Why are police under siege?
Randy Johnson's run-in. The Big Unit, as he's called, makes himself at home in the Big Apple, but he may not be making many friends.
All those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
BEGALA: Thank you, Wolf. We look forward to that report.
Here at CROSSFIRE, as we told you earlier, Howard Dean announced his candidacy for the Democratic National Committee chairmanship today. Not surprisingly, he's a rather controversial candidate in some quarters.
Joining us is California Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren, a Democrat and a Dean supporter.
Congresswoman Lofgren, good to see you again.
REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D), CALIFORNIA: Good afternoon.
WATKINS: Congresswoman, here's one reason why Republicans are so excited about Dean's announcement to run for the chair of the DNC. Run the clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And New York. And we're going to South Dakota and Oregon and Washington and Michigan! And then we're going to Washington, D.C., to take back the White House. Yes!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
WATKINS: That's your man. Now, isn't part of the Democratic Party wish that Dean gets the DNC chair, so that he won't try another bid for the White House in 2008? LOFGREN: Well, we're hopeful that Howard Dean will be elected DNC chair. He is a guy with tremendous experience, former governor, a former lieutenant governor. He was president of the Democratic Governors Association and the U.S. Governors Association. He's smart. He's technically astute.
And I think you will be surprised by the depth and breadth of his support inside the Democratic Party, because we know he is someone who can get us better organized so that we can win elections. And, you know, you can run his scream spiel all you want, but we do think that and I do think that he is the absolute best choice for our party at this time, so that we can win in 2006.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, Congresswoman Lofgren, you use the phrase better organized.
Let me tell you, the current chairman, Terry McAuliffe is, by my lights, as good a chairman as I have ever seen in 21 years in American politics in either party. He came in. He had a $18 million debt. He raised $525 million. We leave with a -- he leaves with a surplus now. He had absolutely no names in a voter file. He now has 175 million names in a voter file.
He had 70,000 e-mails addresses when he came in. He got four million today. And yet many in the Dean camp are taking shots at Terry McAuliffe. Do you and does Howard Dean believe he was a great chairman and will you try to continue his legacy or how are you going to change it?
LOFGREN: The governor is not taking any shots at Terry. He is -- as a matter of fact, today, and in announcement, he gave credit to Terry for the financial stats and the additional e-mails and the like.
But we also need to take another step forward in terms of the Internet and other technology tools that need to be used to continue the fund-raising and really to also build the party not just in the DNC, but in the 50 states. This needs to be a 50-state strategy. And that's what Governor Dean hopes to accomplish and I think that he can accomplish.
WATKINS: Well, you know, the Clintons were given a lot of credit for working against Dean's presidential bid the last time. Do you think that they're going to work now to block his becoming the head of the DNC?
LOFGREN: I haven't seen any signs of that. And I doubt it very much.
The Clintons want Democrats to win, just as I do. And Howard did mention today and also in his announcement that if he is elected DNC chair, he believes it would preclude a run for the presidency four years from now. So, that may or may not be a factor for the Clintons.
BEGALA: Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren, thank you very much for joining us.
LOFGREN: Thank you.
BEGALA: From California.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: I will say, by the way, as a former Clinton aide who talks to the Clintons all the time, they never once said to me that they didn't want Howard Dean to be the nominee and they never entered into that campaign in any way.
But, anyway, what happens when an actor and a talk show host square off? Well, George Clooney has issued a tough challenge to Bill O'Reilly. We'll tell you all about it when CROSSFIRE returns.
Stay with us.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Actor George Clooney and fa -- Fox News talk show host Bill O'Reilly are -- that was a Freudian slip, Bill. I meant Fox News.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Are sparring over a star-studded telethon to raise money for tsunami victims. How can that be, you might ask.
Well, on his show last week, Mr. O'Reilly said he would -- quote -- "be watching" -- unquote -- to see if the money actually gets to the victims. He warned that, "if it doesn't," his words again, "there will be trouble" -- unquote.
Well, that didn't sit too kindly with Mr. Clooney, one of the organizers of the event. He responded by inviting Mr. O'Reilly to join the telethon him as a presenter, challenging him to -- quote -- "put your considerable money where your considerable mouth is" -- unquote.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Nicely put, George.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, O'Reilly -- O'Reilly says he's considering Clooney's offer. And, look, if helping tsunami victims can united former rivals like Presidents George Bush and Bill Clinton, let's hope it can bring together Messrs. Clooney and O'Reilly as well.
WATKINS: Absolutely. I think it's a good cause. Hopefully, it will bring the two guys together and raise a lot of money for a lot people who need it.
BEGALA: Amen. Wonderfully put.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Thank you, Joe. Appreciate that.
From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
WATKINS: From the right, I'm Joe Watkins. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
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