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CNN Crossfire
Political Wars
Aired January 24, 2005 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville; on the right, Robert Novak.
In the CROSSFIRE: another deadly day in Iraq, violence in the run-up to that nation's planned election this Sunday. The chaos in Iraq is fueling debate over President Bush's foreign policy choices, choices that include a secret intelligence unit at the Defense Department said to be reporting directly to Donald Rumsfeld.
And the choice for secretary of state, who's jumped into a verbal sparring match with a top Democrat.
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Robert Novak.
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: In less than a week, Iraqis, some of them, anyway, will go to the polls. But insurgents are stepping up a campaign of violence to keep them from voting. As Iraq spirals further out of control, some folks have to ask, did President Bush's focus on freedom in his inaugural address go too far?
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Hillary Clinton grumped that the president has no vision, while other critics say he's too much of a visionary. We'll talk about the Bush foreign policy shortly, but, first, the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Organizers say 100,000 marchers hit the streets of Washington today for the annual March of Life, protesting the Roe v. Wade decision on its 32nd anniversary. President Bush phoned in good wishes from Camp David. Now, his Democratic predecessor, Bill Clinton, would not even give these protesters the time of day.
But isn't the issue of life important enough for the president to stand in the cold beside those who pray for him on this issue? The president indicated he would try to convert pro-abortion Americans. And that means he won't be too active in trying to amend the Constitution to end this legalized murder.
CARVILLE: Bob, how many times did President Reagan show up out there in a Pyrrhic rally and speak to them? NOVAK: Never.
CARVILLE: Never.
Isn't this all just some big roost to kind of fool Republicans into thinking that -- they're saying that nothing is going to happen.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Well, it's a matter of whether the glass is half full and half empty. At least he gives them lip service.
CARVILLE: Right.
NOVAK: Democrats don't even -- that.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: If you believe it's murder, how do you give -- what good does lip service do you if you're murdering somebody?
NOVAK: Well, I'd like to see some pro-life president actually show up at one of these marches, but I guess it isn't going to be this one.
CARVILLE: No. And it wasn't Ronald Reagan either, was it?
NOVAK: No. No.
CARVILLE: OK. Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: This morning, I got up, as usual, and went downstairs and had a cup of coffee and a nice, delicious, nutritious breakfast and looked around my domain and was actually pretty happy. I worship my wife and I adore my children. But no matter how good I felt this morning, I feel much better now, because one Republican United States senator from Colorado by the name of Wayne Allard has taken it upon himself to defend my little domain in order to protect my wife and kids from the gay guys down the street.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: He has introduced a marriage protection act in order to help defend all Americans from the lavender horde. Perhaps Allard can prevail on new the homeland security chief to come up with code lavender when it comes to defending the sanctity of marriage.
Senator Allard, I've got a lot of problems, as the country has got a lot of problems, but it ain't the gay guys down the street.
NOVAK: You know, you can be very sarcastic about that, James, but, as a matter of fact, you just keep right on doing it, because, if you will notice, for example, in Missouri, it was an overwhelming vote. And the Democrats went down the tube in Missouri. All these places where the people look overwhelmingly against gay marriage, the Democratic candidates lose.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You know what? I don't need a constitutional amendment to protect my family. And I don't need...
NOVAK: What about the...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You know, if I'm irresponsible, it ain't the gay guys that's doing it. It's me.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: What about the politics of it? It's bad politics.
CARVILLE: The politics of it are...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You don't care about politics?
CARVILLE: The politics are horrible, but I'm not -- if I have to get ahead in head by bashing gay people, I ain't going to do it.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: I love them. They're my dear friends.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: A senior Senate Democrat, Joseph Biden of Delaware, has announced he is leaning against confirmation of Alberto Gonzales as attorney general. Senator Biden says a president is entitled to nominees of his choice and he seldom opposes them.
Not that seldom, Joe. When President Bush offered his original Cabinet, Biden voted against John Ashcroft for attorney general, Gale Norton for secretary of the interior, Ted Olson for solicitor general, and John Bolton for undersecretary of state. Counting judicial nominees, Biden has opposed 20 nominees of this president, President Bush, and eight of his father, including CIA Director Bob Gates.
With Joe Biden, watch what he does, not what he says.
CARVILLE: Do you know how many he voted for?
NOVAK: But that's ridiculous.
CARVILLE: You say he voted against 20. In context, how many did he -- he voted for like 10 or whatever.
NOVAK: Look at me. Look at me when you're talking.
CARVILLE: You take an undersecretary of state -- I'm looking at you. How many nominees has Joe Biden voted for?
NOVAK: I'll tell you -- I'll tell you...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: How can you be so sloppy to come over here and accuse and say how many he voted against and not say how many he voted for?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I'll look at you right in the face. How many he voted for?
NOVAK: You asked me a question. That's a stupid question.
CARVILLE: Why?
NOVAK: Because he should vote for all of them.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: The Constitution says advise and consent.
NOVAK: He says -- but he says the president should be entitled to the people he wants.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: What are you talking about? You don't know how many he voted for. How do you come on here and say...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Go on. Go on. Move on. Move on.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... not tell people how many he voted for?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Move on.
CARVILLE: Last week, my esteemed colleague, or maybe not so esteemed after that exchange, Bob Novak, quoted former Clinton adviser Doug Schoen as saying Democrats need an agenda of their own and that the Democratic Party is one that is adrift.
And I agreed with him. Well, at least we can count on some Republicans to stand up for what they believe. Here's what one declared, one decorated veteran, Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, had to say about the military situation in Iraq. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R), NEBRASKA: I don't think we can just continually say that our policy is stay the course, stay the course. And that's where I think the pressure will continue to build, not just from the American people, but the Congress wanting to know how much more money and how many more sacrifices are going to be made, because what's happening in Iraq, in fact, does constrain our foreign policy in other parts of the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: What I want to know, why can't we get some people in the Democratic leadership to say that?
NOVAK: Because it's too sensible for them to say it.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: I agree with Senator Hagel. You know what? We need more Democrats like Barbara Boxer and Joe Biden.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I'll tell you what that.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: If you think -- if you think Barbara Boxer -- wait a minute. If you think Barbara Boxer is saying the same thing Chuck Hagel is saying, you're not listening to Chuck Hagel. He's being very reasonable.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I think Barbara Boxer -- I think Barbara Boxer can stand up to say when Condi Rice, who is the most incompetent national security adviser we ever had...
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: ... that he ought not be elevated, so she can be the most incompetent secretary of state we ever had.
NOVAK: All right.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Democrats are still trying to figure out how they would solve the world's problems. For now, though, they seem to be content to attack President Bush and his foreign policy team at every turn. We'll debate the foreign policy political wars just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE) NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE and the political wars.
Last week, President Bush spoke of the force of human freedom in his inaugural address and expanding that freedom across the globe. His immediate problem, ongoing violence in Iraq on the eve of free elections.
Today in the CROSSFIRE, Democrat Eleanor Holmes Norton, Washington's delegate to Congress, and Republican Congressman Bobby Jindal, freshman lawmaker from Louisiana.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Congressman, you know, Condoleezza Rice, the secretary of state designate and certain to be confirmed, had two big roles in the White House. First, leading up to the Iraqi war, she was in charge of making the case that Iraq had nuclear weapons and even went so far as to suggest there could be a mushroom cloud over New York if we didn't do something about it.
Her second big thing she was tasked for by this president was that she was responsible for the occupation of Iraq. She would be the person running the show. Everything would go through her. What is it about her role as the chief propagator of Iraq having nuclear weapons or this occupation in Iraq that she was charged up that impresses you so much that you think that she would make an outstanding secretary of state? I know that you're a man that believes in Republican values of responsibility and accountability.
And, certainly, if we are going to expect a 4-year-old to pass a math test, we should -- point out the things, the brilliant job she did in those two areas, if you will.
REP. BOBBY JINDAL (R), LOUISIANA: Well, James, first off, thank you for recognizing Republican values of accountability and responsibility.
CARVILLE: Sure.
JINDAL: And thank you for predicting that she will be confirmed.
CARVILLE: Right.
JINDAL: I think Condoleezza Rice, it's important to set the stage and go back in context. It wasn't just the American intelligence forces.
CARVILLE: Right.
JINDAL: It was really the international community sense that Saddam has dangerous weapons of mass destruction.
CARVILLE: Right. Nuclear weapons.
JINDAL: We weren't alone in that assessment. It was really the consensus of almost every European, of every developed country's intelligence war. And so...
CARVILLE: What impressed you that she said there could be a mushroom cloud? What impressed you? There's nobody that said they had nuclear weapons but her.
JINDAL: What impresses me is that she will be the first African- American female secretary of state. What impresses me is that she was the provost of standard. What impresses me...
CARVILLE: That's like saying I am the first bald-headed host on CROSSFIRE.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: What the hell does that mean?
(APPLAUSE)
JINDAL: And perhaps the last.
(CROSSTALK)
JINDAL: No, but what impresses me is that she has done -- she has got an amazing intellect. She has served the president and the country very well.
CARVILLE: Like, this occupation is going really well?
JINDAL: James, look, these elections are going to be historic. I think the country is better served...
CARVILLE: So you're satisfied with our occupation?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: All right, all right, all right, all right, all right.
CARVILLE: OK. All right. I just wanted to see.
NOVAK: Congresswoman, I don't know if you watched the Rice confirmation hearing.
ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (D), WASHINGTON, D.C. DELEGATE: I did.
NOVAK: But there was a really remarkable interchange with Senator Boxer, where Dr. Rice made some statements. Senator Boxer called her a liar. She said, don't impugn my integrity. This is -- I've been around this town a long time. I've never seen anything like this.
Let's listen to what Senator Boxer said in response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BARBARA BOXER (D), CALIFORNIA: I mean, I've been in this debating business for a while now. And when you really don't know what to say about a specific, you just attack the person who's asking the question. We went into a war based on these statements that she made. And she could have addressed that. She didn't address it. She turned and attacked me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: She calls this woman a liar and then she says, she attacked me. Does that make any sense to you?
NORTON: Bingo, Barbara. Millions of Americans have been waiting for Condoleezza Rice to be cross-examined in the way Barbara Boxer did brilliantly, not calling her a liar, but by...
NOVAK: She called her a liar. She said she wasn't telling the truth.
NORTON: But documenting with her own statements untruths that she made that have resulted in almost 1,400 dead Americans in the armed forces and almost 20,000 wounded. She needed a tough cross- examination. And that's what Barbara Boxer gave her.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You know, Eleanor, Ms. Norton, you run in the District of Columbia. You must get about -- besides Russia there, you get about 90 -- like the Soviet used to be, you get about 99.9 percent of the vote.
NORTON: I don't get yours, though, do I, Bob? You live here.
NOVAK: You'll never know, will you?
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: But, as a matter of fact, that -- you want to elect a president. You want to elect a majority to the Senate. You want to elect a majority to the Congress. Don't you realize that that kind of unpleasant, nasty treatment of somebody who a lot of people admire, that's really why the American people vote against Democrats?
NORTON: Why Americans, some Americans say they voted against the Democrats last time is because they hadn't been hard enough on the Republicans. Barbara Boxer finally is stepping forward and doing her job, not giving Condoleezza Rice a free pass, but saying, account for yourself.
And what does Condoleezza Rice, this brilliant woman, say? Instead of saying, look, perhaps what you said, our intelligence was faulty, she says, don't impugn my integrity. Barbara's right. When you don't have an answer, you go ad hominem. And that's what she did. And Barbara got her on it.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Congressman, I saw the president's speech. And, of course, as the Republicans say, he's a man who means what he says and says what he means. When are we going to get -- when is he going the Saudis in and slap the hell out of them for their lack of democracy and get the French in and really start sucking up to them, because they are actually one of the freest societies in the world?
So, when can we expect this sort of shift in U.S. relationships, where we go to countries, or to -- some people think is sort of the origin of liberty and egalitarianism and fraternity and start mending relations with them, and start getting Prince Bandar in and tell him the way the cow ate the cabbage and take his oil and you know what to do with it until they have elections?
JINDAL: Well, James, maybe the Democrats want him to suck up to Chirac. Don't hold your breath. I think the president's speech was not only effective.
CARVILLE: I'm not saying the French -- do you have any indication that France is anything less than a free society?
JINDAL: I think France is a free society and they're a sometime ally. And so, for that reason...
CARVILLE: What about the Saudis?
NOVAK: Let him answer the question, James.
CARVILLE: OK. I'm trying to find out...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Well, let him answer the question.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: ... answer it if you keep interrupting him.
CARVILLE: No, of course he...
(CROSSTALK)
JINDAL: James, I think the president's rhetoric and as well as substance was compelling. I think this idea of America's principles and ideas matching our strategic interest in this modern day in age was a wonderful, wonderful description of where the president wants to continue to lead our country.
The fact that he understands -- let me finish -- where he understands that we're not going to fight all our enemies on the battlefield, but, rather, we have got to spread the seeds of democracy. We have got to nurture freedoms. We have got to encourage human rights across the world, so we don't have more people blowing themselves up and taking innocent children with them.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Let me ask you a question, Louisianian to Louisianian. Freedom is the objective. OK, look, just answer. Who has more freedom, the average Frenchman or the average Saudi?
JINDAL: I think that...
CARVILLE: Just answer me. Who has more -- it's a simple question. Who has more freedom? Does the average Frenchman have more freedom or the average Saudi?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You asked him once. Let him answer it.
(CROSSTALK)
JINDAL: Let me answer your question.
CARVILLE: All right.
JINDAL: I think, in Saudi Arabia, you have got a greater increase in the freedoms. You have got municipal elections. You've got a greater increase in democracy compared to what they had yesterday.
Clearly, there's more work to be done here there. I'm not sitting here -- it would be unfair for you to ask me or the president to defend the current status quo in Saudi Arabia. The president has made it very clear we're going to encourage our friends through diplomacy and other means to increase democracy...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: So you don't really know who has more freedom.
JINDAL: I do indeed.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Ms. Norton, there's two senators from California, Dianne Feinstein, who is a Democrat. And she -- let's put on the board what she said about this Rice confirmation.
"With respect to Dr. Rice, the president is entitled to his Cabinet, absent a finding of incompetence, absent a finding of moral turpitude, absence a finding of some gross, I think, irregularity. So, I am happy to see a president with a Cabinet that he wants. And, clearly, he wants Dr. Rice."
Now, God forbid if the District of Columbia were to name senators, and you would be one of them, who would you be with, Boxer or Feinstein?
NORTON: Oh, Boxer for sure. But -- but if the District of Columbia...
NOVAK: Disappointing.
NORTON: If the District of Columbia had senators, maybe we wouldn't be sitting where we are, with men and women from the District of Columbia, who fought so that there can be elections on January the 30th in Iraq while we don't have voting representation in a Congress of the United States.
(APPLAUSE)
NORTON: Just maybe so.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: I voted. I voted for the city council. That's asking a lot for the District of Columbia, I think.
When we come back, Democrats complain, but what would they do differently in Iraq? I want to know.
And right after the break, Wolf Blitzer tells us about a change in the State Department that the State Department hopes will lead to the capture of Osama bin Laden.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
We're looking at the president's foreign policy, however misguided it may be.
Joining us, Bobby Jindal, Republican congressman from Louisiana, and Eleanor Holmes Norton, Democratic delegate to Congress from the District of Columbia.
NOVAK: Ms. Norton, I would like you to tell -- do something for me I've been asking Democrats to do in the last several weeks, haven't been able to do it, but I have a lot of confidence that you can do it.
I want you to tell me what you would do differently in Iraq right now, differently from President Bush. I don't want to go back to, we shouldn't have gone in, we shouldn't have done this, we shouldn't have disarmed the army. But just the way the situation is in January of 2005, what would you do differently right now?
NORTON: Look, do the elections and get the hell out of there.
CARVILLE: Amen.
NOVAK: Just leave?
NORTON: Yes.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You mean, you would leave without any -- without any security guarantee? NORTON: No. I wouldn't immediately withdraw. But I believe that we're only postponing an inevitable civil war at the price of human lives from our own troops.
NOVAK: So, wait a minute. So you wouldn't leave immediately?
NORTON: Very shortly thereafter.
NOVAK: Well, how long? How long?
NORTON: It's their country. They have had their elections. What more do you want?
CARVILLE: What's wrong with, after the elections, to say, we'll guarantee the territorial integrity of Iraq; we'll prevent the Iranians or the Turks or the Saudis or the Jordanians or the Syrians or whoever it is getting in, but, fellows, you have got this here country; you have got to flush it out yourself; we've freed you from the yoke of a tyrant, but we...
JINDAL: I think what you describe in large and broad outlines is the strategy we're pursuing. I think...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: No, no, no. No, it's the strategy we're pursuing. We have 150,000 people there acting as policemen. I'm talking about going to the borders and saying, look, nations are forged on the blood of patriots. We lost 600,000 people in our Civil War. We can't protect you from yourselves.
JINDAL: If you listen carefully to the Pentagon, what they're indicating is, we want to get Iraq through the elections. It will be up to the Iraqi people to decide whether they're willing to take responsibility for their safety, their stability.
I don't think you're not going to find people in the administration saying we can enforce order from the outside. I think what you're hearing is, we do need to transition; 120,000 forces have been trained.
CARVILLE: So, we're getting out? Is that what -- that's the Holmes-Carville position. Is the United States...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: We're moving?
JINDAL: I think that you'll find broader agreement that we need to transition responsibility to the Iraqi people. We can't just abandon it to chaos, but we need to transition that to the Iraqi people.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Transition is not going to get any better. JINDAL: Well...
CARVILLE: We've been there since March of 2003. Every day, it gets worse.
JINDAL: Well, I'm glad -- again, I'm hearing an endorsement of the Bush administration's policy.
CARVILLE: No, you'll hear no endorsement from me. I think we need to say we made a huge mistake and we're cutting our losses short.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Ms. Norton, Ms. Norton, I want to ask your opinion of the president's inaugural address, which said that the United States should be pursuing democracy and freedom around the world. You disagree with that?
NORTON: When I heard those lofty words from a Republican, knowing that, if a Democrat had talked about freedom in such ephemeral terms, we would never hear the end of it, it took some time to sink in. Now I know what he was doing. He was offering an ex post facto rationale for the invasion of Iraq, pure and simple. He didn't want to remember -- he didn't want to be remembered.
NOVAK: Isn't that cynical on your part? Isn't that cynical on your part?
CARVILLE: Oh, it's not cynical.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Let her answer...
CARVILLE: She's being honest. Don't call her cynical.
NOVAK: Let her answer the question.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Somebody's honest and you call them cynical.
NORTON: This president -- this president knows we didn't find any weapons of mass destruction, knows that he's going to be left with a legacy that said you invaded another country, lost hundreds and hundreds of American lives, thousands of Iraqi lives, with 52 percent of the American people saying they think it's for nothing.
NOVAK: So...
NORTON: And he wants to change the subject by leaving a legacy of freedom that didn't occur.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Ma'am, even though, even though the -- even though the polls show that the American people are in favor of trying to extend freedom around the world, you say it's just a cynical manipulation on his part. Is that right?
NORTON: The American people, since the War of 1775...
(CROSSTALK)
NORTON: ... have been for extending freedom around the world.
(CROSSTALK)
NORTON: Let's begin right here in the District of Columbia with a vote for the people of the District of Columbia.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Do you know anybody who wants less freedom in the world?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Wait a minute. Time's up.
Eleanor Holmes Norton, thank you very much.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Bobby Jindal, thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... freedom.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You be quiet.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: A lot of different things can trigger late-night laughter. For Johnny Carson, political humor was one of his favorite topics. We'll look at how politics gave Johnny a lot of material and more than a few rewards right after this.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: Now a fond farewell to a man who kept a keen eye and a sharp wit tuned to American politics.
Johnny Carson died yesterday at the age of 79. He kept us up late for 30 years as host of "The Tonight Show." With his monologues and with his guests, Carson found humor in almost everything. And that includes poking fun at the politically powerful of every stripe. Even though he kidded politicians over the years, they still flocked to appear on "The Tonight Show."
You might even see Johnny portraying the president in sketches on the show. After he retired, he was honored at the White House with the lifetime achievement award from the Kennedy Center Honors. And he was also awarded the Medal of Freedom by the first President Bush.
Good night, Johnny. And thanks for the laughs.
CARVILLE: Yes. He was a really sophisticated guy. I thought his humor was good. He really was one of the most significant people in the history of television.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: I think he was a Republican, too.
CARVILLE: I don't know, Bob. What difference does it make what he was?
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: The guy died. And he was an entertainer.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: If you're going to politicize everything -- I have no idea what he was.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
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Aired January 24, 2005 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville; on the right, Robert Novak.
In the CROSSFIRE: another deadly day in Iraq, violence in the run-up to that nation's planned election this Sunday. The chaos in Iraq is fueling debate over President Bush's foreign policy choices, choices that include a secret intelligence unit at the Defense Department said to be reporting directly to Donald Rumsfeld.
And the choice for secretary of state, who's jumped into a verbal sparring match with a top Democrat.
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Robert Novak.
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: In less than a week, Iraqis, some of them, anyway, will go to the polls. But insurgents are stepping up a campaign of violence to keep them from voting. As Iraq spirals further out of control, some folks have to ask, did President Bush's focus on freedom in his inaugural address go too far?
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Hillary Clinton grumped that the president has no vision, while other critics say he's too much of a visionary. We'll talk about the Bush foreign policy shortly, but, first, the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Organizers say 100,000 marchers hit the streets of Washington today for the annual March of Life, protesting the Roe v. Wade decision on its 32nd anniversary. President Bush phoned in good wishes from Camp David. Now, his Democratic predecessor, Bill Clinton, would not even give these protesters the time of day.
But isn't the issue of life important enough for the president to stand in the cold beside those who pray for him on this issue? The president indicated he would try to convert pro-abortion Americans. And that means he won't be too active in trying to amend the Constitution to end this legalized murder.
CARVILLE: Bob, how many times did President Reagan show up out there in a Pyrrhic rally and speak to them? NOVAK: Never.
CARVILLE: Never.
Isn't this all just some big roost to kind of fool Republicans into thinking that -- they're saying that nothing is going to happen.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Well, it's a matter of whether the glass is half full and half empty. At least he gives them lip service.
CARVILLE: Right.
NOVAK: Democrats don't even -- that.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: If you believe it's murder, how do you give -- what good does lip service do you if you're murdering somebody?
NOVAK: Well, I'd like to see some pro-life president actually show up at one of these marches, but I guess it isn't going to be this one.
CARVILLE: No. And it wasn't Ronald Reagan either, was it?
NOVAK: No. No.
CARVILLE: OK. Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: This morning, I got up, as usual, and went downstairs and had a cup of coffee and a nice, delicious, nutritious breakfast and looked around my domain and was actually pretty happy. I worship my wife and I adore my children. But no matter how good I felt this morning, I feel much better now, because one Republican United States senator from Colorado by the name of Wayne Allard has taken it upon himself to defend my little domain in order to protect my wife and kids from the gay guys down the street.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: He has introduced a marriage protection act in order to help defend all Americans from the lavender horde. Perhaps Allard can prevail on new the homeland security chief to come up with code lavender when it comes to defending the sanctity of marriage.
Senator Allard, I've got a lot of problems, as the country has got a lot of problems, but it ain't the gay guys down the street.
NOVAK: You know, you can be very sarcastic about that, James, but, as a matter of fact, you just keep right on doing it, because, if you will notice, for example, in Missouri, it was an overwhelming vote. And the Democrats went down the tube in Missouri. All these places where the people look overwhelmingly against gay marriage, the Democratic candidates lose.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You know what? I don't need a constitutional amendment to protect my family. And I don't need...
NOVAK: What about the...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You know, if I'm irresponsible, it ain't the gay guys that's doing it. It's me.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: What about the politics of it? It's bad politics.
CARVILLE: The politics of it are...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You don't care about politics?
CARVILLE: The politics are horrible, but I'm not -- if I have to get ahead in head by bashing gay people, I ain't going to do it.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: I love them. They're my dear friends.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: A senior Senate Democrat, Joseph Biden of Delaware, has announced he is leaning against confirmation of Alberto Gonzales as attorney general. Senator Biden says a president is entitled to nominees of his choice and he seldom opposes them.
Not that seldom, Joe. When President Bush offered his original Cabinet, Biden voted against John Ashcroft for attorney general, Gale Norton for secretary of the interior, Ted Olson for solicitor general, and John Bolton for undersecretary of state. Counting judicial nominees, Biden has opposed 20 nominees of this president, President Bush, and eight of his father, including CIA Director Bob Gates.
With Joe Biden, watch what he does, not what he says.
CARVILLE: Do you know how many he voted for?
NOVAK: But that's ridiculous.
CARVILLE: You say he voted against 20. In context, how many did he -- he voted for like 10 or whatever.
NOVAK: Look at me. Look at me when you're talking.
CARVILLE: You take an undersecretary of state -- I'm looking at you. How many nominees has Joe Biden voted for?
NOVAK: I'll tell you -- I'll tell you...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: How can you be so sloppy to come over here and accuse and say how many he voted against and not say how many he voted for?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I'll look at you right in the face. How many he voted for?
NOVAK: You asked me a question. That's a stupid question.
CARVILLE: Why?
NOVAK: Because he should vote for all of them.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: The Constitution says advise and consent.
NOVAK: He says -- but he says the president should be entitled to the people he wants.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: What are you talking about? You don't know how many he voted for. How do you come on here and say...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Go on. Go on. Move on. Move on.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... not tell people how many he voted for?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Move on.
CARVILLE: Last week, my esteemed colleague, or maybe not so esteemed after that exchange, Bob Novak, quoted former Clinton adviser Doug Schoen as saying Democrats need an agenda of their own and that the Democratic Party is one that is adrift.
And I agreed with him. Well, at least we can count on some Republicans to stand up for what they believe. Here's what one declared, one decorated veteran, Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, had to say about the military situation in Iraq. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R), NEBRASKA: I don't think we can just continually say that our policy is stay the course, stay the course. And that's where I think the pressure will continue to build, not just from the American people, but the Congress wanting to know how much more money and how many more sacrifices are going to be made, because what's happening in Iraq, in fact, does constrain our foreign policy in other parts of the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: What I want to know, why can't we get some people in the Democratic leadership to say that?
NOVAK: Because it's too sensible for them to say it.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: I agree with Senator Hagel. You know what? We need more Democrats like Barbara Boxer and Joe Biden.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I'll tell you what that.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: If you think -- if you think Barbara Boxer -- wait a minute. If you think Barbara Boxer is saying the same thing Chuck Hagel is saying, you're not listening to Chuck Hagel. He's being very reasonable.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I think Barbara Boxer -- I think Barbara Boxer can stand up to say when Condi Rice, who is the most incompetent national security adviser we ever had...
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: ... that he ought not be elevated, so she can be the most incompetent secretary of state we ever had.
NOVAK: All right.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Democrats are still trying to figure out how they would solve the world's problems. For now, though, they seem to be content to attack President Bush and his foreign policy team at every turn. We'll debate the foreign policy political wars just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE) NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE and the political wars.
Last week, President Bush spoke of the force of human freedom in his inaugural address and expanding that freedom across the globe. His immediate problem, ongoing violence in Iraq on the eve of free elections.
Today in the CROSSFIRE, Democrat Eleanor Holmes Norton, Washington's delegate to Congress, and Republican Congressman Bobby Jindal, freshman lawmaker from Louisiana.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Congressman, you know, Condoleezza Rice, the secretary of state designate and certain to be confirmed, had two big roles in the White House. First, leading up to the Iraqi war, she was in charge of making the case that Iraq had nuclear weapons and even went so far as to suggest there could be a mushroom cloud over New York if we didn't do something about it.
Her second big thing she was tasked for by this president was that she was responsible for the occupation of Iraq. She would be the person running the show. Everything would go through her. What is it about her role as the chief propagator of Iraq having nuclear weapons or this occupation in Iraq that she was charged up that impresses you so much that you think that she would make an outstanding secretary of state? I know that you're a man that believes in Republican values of responsibility and accountability.
And, certainly, if we are going to expect a 4-year-old to pass a math test, we should -- point out the things, the brilliant job she did in those two areas, if you will.
REP. BOBBY JINDAL (R), LOUISIANA: Well, James, first off, thank you for recognizing Republican values of accountability and responsibility.
CARVILLE: Sure.
JINDAL: And thank you for predicting that she will be confirmed.
CARVILLE: Right.
JINDAL: I think Condoleezza Rice, it's important to set the stage and go back in context. It wasn't just the American intelligence forces.
CARVILLE: Right.
JINDAL: It was really the international community sense that Saddam has dangerous weapons of mass destruction.
CARVILLE: Right. Nuclear weapons.
JINDAL: We weren't alone in that assessment. It was really the consensus of almost every European, of every developed country's intelligence war. And so...
CARVILLE: What impressed you that she said there could be a mushroom cloud? What impressed you? There's nobody that said they had nuclear weapons but her.
JINDAL: What impresses me is that she will be the first African- American female secretary of state. What impresses me is that she was the provost of standard. What impresses me...
CARVILLE: That's like saying I am the first bald-headed host on CROSSFIRE.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: What the hell does that mean?
(APPLAUSE)
JINDAL: And perhaps the last.
(CROSSTALK)
JINDAL: No, but what impresses me is that she has done -- she has got an amazing intellect. She has served the president and the country very well.
CARVILLE: Like, this occupation is going really well?
JINDAL: James, look, these elections are going to be historic. I think the country is better served...
CARVILLE: So you're satisfied with our occupation?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: All right, all right, all right, all right, all right.
CARVILLE: OK. All right. I just wanted to see.
NOVAK: Congresswoman, I don't know if you watched the Rice confirmation hearing.
ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (D), WASHINGTON, D.C. DELEGATE: I did.
NOVAK: But there was a really remarkable interchange with Senator Boxer, where Dr. Rice made some statements. Senator Boxer called her a liar. She said, don't impugn my integrity. This is -- I've been around this town a long time. I've never seen anything like this.
Let's listen to what Senator Boxer said in response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BARBARA BOXER (D), CALIFORNIA: I mean, I've been in this debating business for a while now. And when you really don't know what to say about a specific, you just attack the person who's asking the question. We went into a war based on these statements that she made. And she could have addressed that. She didn't address it. She turned and attacked me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: She calls this woman a liar and then she says, she attacked me. Does that make any sense to you?
NORTON: Bingo, Barbara. Millions of Americans have been waiting for Condoleezza Rice to be cross-examined in the way Barbara Boxer did brilliantly, not calling her a liar, but by...
NOVAK: She called her a liar. She said she wasn't telling the truth.
NORTON: But documenting with her own statements untruths that she made that have resulted in almost 1,400 dead Americans in the armed forces and almost 20,000 wounded. She needed a tough cross- examination. And that's what Barbara Boxer gave her.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You know, Eleanor, Ms. Norton, you run in the District of Columbia. You must get about -- besides Russia there, you get about 90 -- like the Soviet used to be, you get about 99.9 percent of the vote.
NORTON: I don't get yours, though, do I, Bob? You live here.
NOVAK: You'll never know, will you?
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: But, as a matter of fact, that -- you want to elect a president. You want to elect a majority to the Senate. You want to elect a majority to the Congress. Don't you realize that that kind of unpleasant, nasty treatment of somebody who a lot of people admire, that's really why the American people vote against Democrats?
NORTON: Why Americans, some Americans say they voted against the Democrats last time is because they hadn't been hard enough on the Republicans. Barbara Boxer finally is stepping forward and doing her job, not giving Condoleezza Rice a free pass, but saying, account for yourself.
And what does Condoleezza Rice, this brilliant woman, say? Instead of saying, look, perhaps what you said, our intelligence was faulty, she says, don't impugn my integrity. Barbara's right. When you don't have an answer, you go ad hominem. And that's what she did. And Barbara got her on it.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Congressman, I saw the president's speech. And, of course, as the Republicans say, he's a man who means what he says and says what he means. When are we going to get -- when is he going the Saudis in and slap the hell out of them for their lack of democracy and get the French in and really start sucking up to them, because they are actually one of the freest societies in the world?
So, when can we expect this sort of shift in U.S. relationships, where we go to countries, or to -- some people think is sort of the origin of liberty and egalitarianism and fraternity and start mending relations with them, and start getting Prince Bandar in and tell him the way the cow ate the cabbage and take his oil and you know what to do with it until they have elections?
JINDAL: Well, James, maybe the Democrats want him to suck up to Chirac. Don't hold your breath. I think the president's speech was not only effective.
CARVILLE: I'm not saying the French -- do you have any indication that France is anything less than a free society?
JINDAL: I think France is a free society and they're a sometime ally. And so, for that reason...
CARVILLE: What about the Saudis?
NOVAK: Let him answer the question, James.
CARVILLE: OK. I'm trying to find out...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Well, let him answer the question.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: ... answer it if you keep interrupting him.
CARVILLE: No, of course he...
(CROSSTALK)
JINDAL: James, I think the president's rhetoric and as well as substance was compelling. I think this idea of America's principles and ideas matching our strategic interest in this modern day in age was a wonderful, wonderful description of where the president wants to continue to lead our country.
The fact that he understands -- let me finish -- where he understands that we're not going to fight all our enemies on the battlefield, but, rather, we have got to spread the seeds of democracy. We have got to nurture freedoms. We have got to encourage human rights across the world, so we don't have more people blowing themselves up and taking innocent children with them.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Let me ask you a question, Louisianian to Louisianian. Freedom is the objective. OK, look, just answer. Who has more freedom, the average Frenchman or the average Saudi?
JINDAL: I think that...
CARVILLE: Just answer me. Who has more -- it's a simple question. Who has more freedom? Does the average Frenchman have more freedom or the average Saudi?
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You asked him once. Let him answer it.
(CROSSTALK)
JINDAL: Let me answer your question.
CARVILLE: All right.
JINDAL: I think, in Saudi Arabia, you have got a greater increase in the freedoms. You have got municipal elections. You've got a greater increase in democracy compared to what they had yesterday.
Clearly, there's more work to be done here there. I'm not sitting here -- it would be unfair for you to ask me or the president to defend the current status quo in Saudi Arabia. The president has made it very clear we're going to encourage our friends through diplomacy and other means to increase democracy...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: So you don't really know who has more freedom.
JINDAL: I do indeed.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Ms. Norton, there's two senators from California, Dianne Feinstein, who is a Democrat. And she -- let's put on the board what she said about this Rice confirmation.
"With respect to Dr. Rice, the president is entitled to his Cabinet, absent a finding of incompetence, absent a finding of moral turpitude, absence a finding of some gross, I think, irregularity. So, I am happy to see a president with a Cabinet that he wants. And, clearly, he wants Dr. Rice."
Now, God forbid if the District of Columbia were to name senators, and you would be one of them, who would you be with, Boxer or Feinstein?
NORTON: Oh, Boxer for sure. But -- but if the District of Columbia...
NOVAK: Disappointing.
NORTON: If the District of Columbia had senators, maybe we wouldn't be sitting where we are, with men and women from the District of Columbia, who fought so that there can be elections on January the 30th in Iraq while we don't have voting representation in a Congress of the United States.
(APPLAUSE)
NORTON: Just maybe so.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: I voted. I voted for the city council. That's asking a lot for the District of Columbia, I think.
When we come back, Democrats complain, but what would they do differently in Iraq? I want to know.
And right after the break, Wolf Blitzer tells us about a change in the State Department that the State Department hopes will lead to the capture of Osama bin Laden.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
We're looking at the president's foreign policy, however misguided it may be.
Joining us, Bobby Jindal, Republican congressman from Louisiana, and Eleanor Holmes Norton, Democratic delegate to Congress from the District of Columbia.
NOVAK: Ms. Norton, I would like you to tell -- do something for me I've been asking Democrats to do in the last several weeks, haven't been able to do it, but I have a lot of confidence that you can do it.
I want you to tell me what you would do differently in Iraq right now, differently from President Bush. I don't want to go back to, we shouldn't have gone in, we shouldn't have done this, we shouldn't have disarmed the army. But just the way the situation is in January of 2005, what would you do differently right now?
NORTON: Look, do the elections and get the hell out of there.
CARVILLE: Amen.
NOVAK: Just leave?
NORTON: Yes.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: You mean, you would leave without any -- without any security guarantee? NORTON: No. I wouldn't immediately withdraw. But I believe that we're only postponing an inevitable civil war at the price of human lives from our own troops.
NOVAK: So, wait a minute. So you wouldn't leave immediately?
NORTON: Very shortly thereafter.
NOVAK: Well, how long? How long?
NORTON: It's their country. They have had their elections. What more do you want?
CARVILLE: What's wrong with, after the elections, to say, we'll guarantee the territorial integrity of Iraq; we'll prevent the Iranians or the Turks or the Saudis or the Jordanians or the Syrians or whoever it is getting in, but, fellows, you have got this here country; you have got to flush it out yourself; we've freed you from the yoke of a tyrant, but we...
JINDAL: I think what you describe in large and broad outlines is the strategy we're pursuing. I think...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: No, no, no. No, it's the strategy we're pursuing. We have 150,000 people there acting as policemen. I'm talking about going to the borders and saying, look, nations are forged on the blood of patriots. We lost 600,000 people in our Civil War. We can't protect you from yourselves.
JINDAL: If you listen carefully to the Pentagon, what they're indicating is, we want to get Iraq through the elections. It will be up to the Iraqi people to decide whether they're willing to take responsibility for their safety, their stability.
I don't think you're not going to find people in the administration saying we can enforce order from the outside. I think what you're hearing is, we do need to transition; 120,000 forces have been trained.
CARVILLE: So, we're getting out? Is that what -- that's the Holmes-Carville position. Is the United States...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: We're moving?
JINDAL: I think that you'll find broader agreement that we need to transition responsibility to the Iraqi people. We can't just abandon it to chaos, but we need to transition that to the Iraqi people.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Transition is not going to get any better. JINDAL: Well...
CARVILLE: We've been there since March of 2003. Every day, it gets worse.
JINDAL: Well, I'm glad -- again, I'm hearing an endorsement of the Bush administration's policy.
CARVILLE: No, you'll hear no endorsement from me. I think we need to say we made a huge mistake and we're cutting our losses short.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Ms. Norton, Ms. Norton, I want to ask your opinion of the president's inaugural address, which said that the United States should be pursuing democracy and freedom around the world. You disagree with that?
NORTON: When I heard those lofty words from a Republican, knowing that, if a Democrat had talked about freedom in such ephemeral terms, we would never hear the end of it, it took some time to sink in. Now I know what he was doing. He was offering an ex post facto rationale for the invasion of Iraq, pure and simple. He didn't want to remember -- he didn't want to be remembered.
NOVAK: Isn't that cynical on your part? Isn't that cynical on your part?
CARVILLE: Oh, it's not cynical.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Let her answer...
CARVILLE: She's being honest. Don't call her cynical.
NOVAK: Let her answer the question.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Somebody's honest and you call them cynical.
NORTON: This president -- this president knows we didn't find any weapons of mass destruction, knows that he's going to be left with a legacy that said you invaded another country, lost hundreds and hundreds of American lives, thousands of Iraqi lives, with 52 percent of the American people saying they think it's for nothing.
NOVAK: So...
NORTON: And he wants to change the subject by leaving a legacy of freedom that didn't occur.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Ma'am, even though, even though the -- even though the polls show that the American people are in favor of trying to extend freedom around the world, you say it's just a cynical manipulation on his part. Is that right?
NORTON: The American people, since the War of 1775...
(CROSSTALK)
NORTON: ... have been for extending freedom around the world.
(CROSSTALK)
NORTON: Let's begin right here in the District of Columbia with a vote for the people of the District of Columbia.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Do you know anybody who wants less freedom in the world?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Wait a minute. Time's up.
Eleanor Holmes Norton, thank you very much.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Bobby Jindal, thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... freedom.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You be quiet.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: A lot of different things can trigger late-night laughter. For Johnny Carson, political humor was one of his favorite topics. We'll look at how politics gave Johnny a lot of material and more than a few rewards right after this.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: Now a fond farewell to a man who kept a keen eye and a sharp wit tuned to American politics.
Johnny Carson died yesterday at the age of 79. He kept us up late for 30 years as host of "The Tonight Show." With his monologues and with his guests, Carson found humor in almost everything. And that includes poking fun at the politically powerful of every stripe. Even though he kidded politicians over the years, they still flocked to appear on "The Tonight Show."
You might even see Johnny portraying the president in sketches on the show. After he retired, he was honored at the White House with the lifetime achievement award from the Kennedy Center Honors. And he was also awarded the Medal of Freedom by the first President Bush.
Good night, Johnny. And thanks for the laughs.
CARVILLE: Yes. He was a really sophisticated guy. I thought his humor was good. He really was one of the most significant people in the history of television.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: I think he was a Republican, too.
CARVILLE: I don't know, Bob. What difference does it make what he was?
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: The guy died. And he was an entertainer.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: If you're going to politicize everything -- I have no idea what he was.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
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