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CNN Crossfire
Faith-Based Battle
Aired February 15, 2005 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville, on the right, Bay Buchanan.
In the CROSSFIRE: A former White House official says the Bush administration hasn't kept its promises to actively promote faith- based programs. In 2000, candidate Bush called for $8 billion to promote religious charities and community groups. What's happened since then? The White House says compassionate conservatism is still a top priority for President Bush.
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president has made his faith-based and community initiative one of his highest priorities.
ANNOUNCER: Do these programs get real support from the White House and Congress? And do they work?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Bay Buchanan.
(APPLAUSE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: What happened to President Bush's promise to put government funds towards efforts of religious and community groups helping the poor and homeless? According to the former deputy director of the White House office in charge of that program, not much. We're going to get into that today.
On the right, Bay Buchanan, president of American Cause, joins me.
But, first, the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
One has to feel sorry for well-meaning religious conservatives who try to advance their agenda, as opposed to just acquiring power. David Kuo -- K-U-O -- and I'm not sure of the pronunciation -- if I have it wrong, I apologize -- who was deputy director of the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives during much of President Bush's first term, basically said that the Bush administration thinks the faith-based community is a bunch of fools. Of course -- and, of course, he's right. Kuo went on to say that the president received political benefits and has promised to help religious organizations win taxpayer funding to help -- to care for the least, the last and the lost. Mr. Kuo now realizes what every knowledgeable person in Washington knows. This administration is going to serve its powerful K Street masters and could care a less what a bunch of religious people think around the country unless there's an election going on.
(LAUGHTER)
BAY BUCHANAN, GUEST CO-HOST: James, that's not true at all.
CARVILLE: It's not?
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: No, it's not.
CARVILLE: OK.
BUCHANAN: He's upset because he was put in a position. The president didn't get everything he wanted, so he didn't have his $8 billion to spend.
CARVILLE: Right.
BUCHANAN: And that's what happens, as you well know, in this town. You don't always get everything you want. But he is committed...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: .. said he's got nothing. He said no one in the White House cared anything about this.
BUCHANAN: He has got executive directors.
CARVILLE: That they cared -- all they cared about -- well, I'm just saying what the man said, that you know what?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: John DiIulio, who was there before him, said the same thing. At some point, you, as a real person of faith, ought to say, you know what? I'm tired of these people making a fool out of me, too.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: Because all they care about is what these interest groups say to give them money.
BUCHANAN: No, no, no. The president has definitely been for this. He did not get what he wanted and he's going to have to fight further for it. CARVILLE: You better talk to Mr. Kuo.
BUCHANAN: President Bush has also renominated 12 candidates to the federal bench.
Why did he have to renominate them? Democrats in the Senate blocked the confirmation of these jurists in his first term. Minority Leader Harry Reid has responded that the Senate shouldn't have to waste any more time redebating these nominees who were -- quote -- "too extreme."
First, Mr. Reid, the Senate never debated these nominees. Had they been given a full -- an opportunity to present themselves to a full Senate, they would have been confirmed, and with some Democratic support. And the next thing, Mr. Reid. The next reason they didn't get a vote is because they're pro-life, a position you could hardly call extreme, since it's one you hold yourself.
All the president asked is that decent Americans, these qualified, very qualified, respected jurists be given them a vote. Calling them extreme and refusing a vote is harmful to their reputations. And they deserve better from those who might call themselves the party of the people.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: You know, they can hold up people from now until the end of this century and never hold up as many people as you Republicans held up during the Clinton administration. I like the way these whiners say, oh, you can't do that to us, but we can do it to you.
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Come on. Get real. There's nobody that cares about all this foolishness.
(BELL RINGING)
BUCHANAN: Heck they don't. That's why we won two elections in a row.
CARVILLE: But because this is so unbelievable that the Bush administration could be this stupid, I'm going to read to you directly from the lead story in "USA Today."
And I am quoting: "The Food and Drug Administration's proposed budget for next year includes cuts in nearly all its inspection programs, from checks on imported foods, to review of overseas plants that make prescription drugs bound for the USA. If Congress approves, the number of domestic food safety inspections made next year would fall by 5 percent. Foreign drug plant inspections would drop by 5.8 percent. And checks on the nation's blood banks would be cut by 4.7 percent, compared with estimated 2005 inspections." Remember, last year, when the Bush administration said you couldn't go to Canada to get drugs because foreign-made drugs are unsafe? Well, now they want to cut U.S. inspections of foreign drug plants by 6 percent. They need drugs and a lot of them over there.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I'll tell you that.
BUCHANAN: James...
CARVILLE: This is like the...
BUCHANAN: It's an oversight. It must be an oversight. Surely...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: No. I had to read from it, because, when I saw it, I said, this can't be true. Nobody can be this stupid.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: But, guess what? They were.
BUCHANAN: We need that beef inspected. We're feeding that to our kids. Come on, guys. That is one of your jobs over there.
CARVILLE: Yes, I agree. And, you know, the blood supply, if I only got a little bit of my tax to know that we got the blood supply safe, thank you. I'm kind of for that.
(BELL RINGING)
BUCHANAN: There's a lot of waste that can be cut. Let's not go after the inspectors.
They gave out Grammy Awards this last Sunday with all the glitz and wealth of the music industry on display, mixing and mingling with none other than your tax dollars. That's right. Thanks to the sharp eye of Arizona Congressman Jeff Flake, we've learned that $150,000 of federal taxes goes to the Grammy Foundation, the music appreciation arm of the Recording Academy.
Consider the lyrics of one such winning song: "What else could I possibly do to make noise? I done touched everything but little boys."
(LAUGHTER)
BUCHANAN: Inspiring.
Many others, I couldn't even read on TV. I suspect, if some of these so-called artists were restricted from using four-letter words, they'd have to hum their tunes. But the congressman has raised a good question. Why are taxpayers subsidizing an organization made up of millionaire singers, producers and executives, which I might add gives honors to such trash?
Well, I think we have found some money for those inspectors, James.
CARVILLE: Well, you know what? I'll -- you know what? I could -- I think I wouldn't oppose it at all if they took the $150,000 they gave from the Grammy thing and put it to, say, inspect the blood supply of the United States.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I think the average American would say, you know what? That makes a hell of a lot of sense to me.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
BUCHANAN: ... both on that one. I'll tell you.
CARVILLE: Well, I'll tell you what. President Bush has done a great job of turning speeches about religious values into votes. Well, his well publicized faith-based initiatives are little more than a sham. One of his debates says so. We'll debate the issue next.
And this is one of my favorite times of year. And I'll tell you why later on CROSSFIRE.
And we also want to report that Michael Chertoff has been confirmed unanimously by the United States Senate to be the next director of homeland security.
BUCHANAN: Excellent.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Thank you.
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to CROSSFIRE at the George Washington University, call 202-994-8CNN or visit our Web site. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. When George Bush first ran, let's see, ran for president -- that's right -- he promised to support religious and community efforts to help the poor. But now one of the people who helped run Bush's faith-based initiative says it never accomplished what it was supposed to. What's going on?
We're going to find out.
Here in the CROSSFIRE today, the Reverend Jesse Jackson, president of Rainbow/PUSH Coalition, joining us here from Nashville, Tennessee, as well as former Congressman Randy Tate, also former executive director of Christian Coalition.
I want to thank you both for being with us.
RANDY TATE (R), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: Good to be on.
(CROSSTALK)
BUCHANAN: James.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Basically, Congressman, John DiIulio, as I said before, said the same thing. My question is, why in the world would anyone be surprised at this? As I appreciate it, the pro-life doctrine is at the very heart of the Christian conservative movement. Where was the president when you guys were out marching for what is at the heart and soul of their movement, the pro-life march?
TATE: The president has proven his commitment to the pro-life issues.
CARVILLE: He was leading the march?
TATE: He did what your friend in -- President Clinton wouldn't do. He signed a bill to end partial-birth abortion in this country.
CARVILLE: Right. Right.
(CROSSTALK)
TATE: That's what he did.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Did he go out and march with you all?
TATE: It's not before standing before a rally.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: So he doesn't have to. You people -- you know, you really don't care. As long as you all get to votes, you don't care...
TATE: We're not interested in rallies. We're not interested in protests.
CARVILLE: Right.
TATE: We're interested in getting something done.
CARVILLE: Right.
TATE: And from a policy standpoint, this president has enhanced the culture of life in this country.
CARVILLE: But why wouldn't he be seen with you guys? Is he ashamed of you all? I'm serious. Is he -- don't you think he thinks you all are a little -- doesn't he take you guys and the people that vote for you and go to church on Sunday and listen to these sermons; doesn't he take you all for kind of fools?
TATE: James, absolutely not.
CARVILLE: Obviously -- OK.
TATE: No. I mean, no, no. I mean, that's just cheap rhetoric here on this show.
You know he takes his faith serious. He looks at all people of faith. This has been a president who believes that faith is something that transforms life, so much so, James, that he created a center within the federal government called the Center For Faith-Based and Community Initiatives.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Right.
TATE: Which he has put $1.1 billion into, based on a "Washington Post" story today.
CARVILLE: Right.
TATE: He is making changes in people's lives. You look what he's doing in the area of trying to help people that are in the greatest needs. Kids of inmates, he's providing mentoring programs. He's helping with the ready to work program; 650,000 ex-cons are going to come out of prison, going to come out of prison this year.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Let Bay go.
(CROSSTALK)
TATE: And they need someone and a program that is going to make a difference in their lives.
BUCHANAN: All right, Jesse, let me ask you, the president is, obviously, committed to these faith-based initiatives. He is.
Jesse, can you hear me?
REV. JESSE JACKSON, FOUNDER, RAINBOW/PUSH COALITION: I can hear you.
BUCHANAN: OK. Very good.
He's, obviously, quite committed to these faith-based initiatives and has spoken about it. He did not get what he wanted through Congress. So, let me ask you, do you not agree that if indeed these faith-based initiatives are successful, as they are, has been proven to be, that this is a good use of the -- it's a very good use to have of the -- of government money?
JACKSON: Every time he sticks out his hand, there's always something up his sleeve. So, I'm not surprised that faith-based is underfunded.
I'm not surprised that No Child Left Behind is underfunded. In the headlines last week, Bush officials spell out cuts and money for housing. Bush budget calls for cuts in health services. So, there simply is a commitment for tax cuts for the very wealthy and job cuts for working people and no commitment to lifting the boat stuck at the bottom.
BUCHANAN: What about the initiative, Jesse? He has obviously -- he didn't get it through Congress. He went and does an executive director and makes certain that all of these faith-based organizations have a real opportunity to get these grants. He has pushed that like no one else. Now, what about that? That goes directly to those who are in need.
JACKSON: This has been deceptive, because it covers so few people.
For example, there are 45 million Americans who have no health insurance. You cannot handle that with a faith-based initiative grant, for example.
(LAUGHTER)
JACKSON: Or you have a cut to Pell Grants for students who want to stay in school, that cannot help those. And there's no relationship between the needs and the grassroots and preachers he's trying to target to get their votes.
CARVILLE: Congressman, let me ask you. I want to go to this, because you and Bay said president is committed to it.
Now, Mr. Kuo was appointed by this president.
TATE: Right.
CARVILLE: This is what he said, not me, not Reverend Jackson, my dear friend. This is what he said. He said that: "The White House reaped political benefits from the president's promise to help religious organizations win taxpayer funding." He said -- quote -- "There was minimal senior White House commitment to the faith-based agenda" and said Republicans were guilty of "snoring indifference" -- "snoring indifference." This is what, not James Carville not Reverend Jackson, the man that George W. Bush put as a deputy director in his program. That doesn't concern you as a leader of the faith-based community?
TATE: Well, you forgot the next line where he said that Democrats reacted in a knee-jerk reactionary opposition to anything that's religious.
CARVILLE: I agree. But they're not -- you're a Republican.
TATE: At the end of the day...
(APPLAUSE)
TATE: At the end of the day -- no, James.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You're not troubled by this?
TATE: No. Let me make a point.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You're not troubled? You tell these people to vote for these people and they have "snoring indifference" to the needs of your community?
TATE: No. It's just the opposite, James.
One, I know David. David is someone who passionate about these issues and he wants more to happen.
CARVILLE: Is he a liar?
TATE: But you know what? Within the political -- within the political world...
CARVILLE: Right. Right.
TATE: Within the political world here in Washington, George Bush has done an amazing job moving this thing forward.
Look, there's 10 agencies now, James, that have...
CARVILLE: Is David a liar?
TATE: Ten agencies now that have individuals in those agencies eliminating the roadblocks.
Before, if a group called, for example, the Metropolitan Council For Jewish Poverty had the name Jewish in its title, they couldn't get a grant. (CROSSTALK)
TATE: Now they can get a grant and try to make a difference in their lives. So, there was discrimination. This now levels...
CARVILLE: Is this man a liar?
TATE: No. He has a different...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Let me read what he said.
(CROSSTALK)
TATE: James, he has a different perspective on what happened.
But you cannot ignore the reality that $1.1 billion was spent.
CARVILLE: Right.
TATE: That this is -- that groups now that under the Clinton administration couldn't get a grant now can get a grant.
CARVILLE: So you're satisfied. OK. All right. I think that...
BUCHANAN: Jesse, you want to talk about another issue, but we're here to talk about faith-based initiatives. There's millions of organizations across this country that do terrific work because they're based on faith. They're very successful to change the spirit of somebody.
And that's how it's done, using faith. Do you not agree that, when there is a government program that is a secular program and there's an opportunity for money, taxpayer money, to be used on a faith-based, which is much more successful, that the president hasn't done the right thing to try to move some of this money away from secular to the faith, where money, taxpayers' money, is better used?
JACKSON: Bay, Bay, long before Mr. Bush said faith-based initiative, we got something called Section 8 housing built by many churches. But now he has raised the bar on eligibility for Section 8 housing and cut the budget for public housing.
So, if you cut public housing and cut public health services and cut Upward Bound and cut Pell Grants, that's far more than the value of these grants. It's just irrational to me and unfair to have a $5 billion commitment a month to Iraq and permanent tax cuts the top 10 percent and no plan to reinvest in those boats stuck at the bottom. That's fundamentally unfair.
TATE: And it's irrational.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
TATE: It's irrational, Reverend Jackson, to discriminate against religious organizations, which occurred for years until the Bush administrators came in, just because they had a faith component. They change people lives. They have a lower recidivism rate. And they're programs that work.
JACKSON: Well, we live on our faith, but we live under the law.
So, when Congressman Jesse Jr. asked the president last week, will you support voting rights extension 2007, he said, I don't know what you're talking about. So, if he will not voting rights extension, now he want to use black people's short life expectancy to justify privatizing Social Security, we're not all fools. We're not stupid. We know better. He's given us a hand, while, up his sleeves, there's something deceptive and wrong. And we all as Americans deserve better.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: And with that, we're going to have to take a quick break.
Next, could Senator Hillary Clinton be the next one to pick up on faith-based initiatives and run with them?
And did the antidepressant drug Zoloft cause a Southern South Carolina boy to kill his grandparents? Wolf Blitzer tells us what the jury said right after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, new fallout from that deadly bomb attack in Lebanon. There's an angry Bush administration protest. The U.S. ambassador to Syria is being called back to Washington.
A South Carolina jury rejects the so-called Zoloft defense; 15- year-old Christopher Pittman is sentenced to prison for his murder of his grandparents.
And a television interview turns into an ugly fight. We'll show you the pictures.
All those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
We haven't turned into a fight yet, but, anyway, we're on our way.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: George W. Bush picked a lot of support when he fashioned himself as a compassionate conservative, but it doesn't seem to have turned into results so far for his faith-based initiatives.
Still in the CROSSFIRE, Randy Tate, former executive director of the Christian Coalition, and the Reverend Jesse Jackson of the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition.
BUCHANAN: Jesse, I want to try one more time here. And I know you don't like a lot of the president's budget, but we're talking faith-based initiative here.
And it seems that Hillary Clinton understands it very clearly. She has endorsed it, supporting it now and talking about something. It appears that this could be some -- a major issue. Do you think that Democrats recognize that this country has an enormous number of votes that are religious based and that they might now pass a faith- based initiative for the president?
JACKSON: Well, an unfunded mandate is the whole of a doughnut. Faith-based initiative is a good idea, but unfunded, it's simply vapor.
Pell Grants is a good idea, but unfunded. Section 8 housing is a good idea, but unfunded. He shows his priorities. What does he give to the rich? Tax cuts. Offshore to avoid paying taxes. What does he give to his priorities? Five billion dollars a month in the choice of war in Iraq.
BUCHANAN: But what about Democrats? Are they going to pick this one up and run with it? Hillary obviously is.
JACKSON: Well, I would think that Democrats need to focus on something more fundamental, A, the right to vote being extended, B, a plan to incentivize, reinvest in America and put America back to work.
That is the faith-based I could see, a commitment to stop exporting capital and exporting jobs and importing cheap labor and cheap products. Let's put America back to work. That would be a great expression of faith and substance working together.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Congressman, we all remember religious conservatives, some of them saying that there were biblical roots in the president's tax cuts for the wealthy.
I'm wondering, in your mind, could you conjure up any doctrinal support, any biblical sayings that would support the president's desire to the cut inspections to, say, the blood supply or the food supply or something like that?
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Did Jesus -- is there any kind of way we can maybe go back and see that Jesus would have favored cutting inspections of blood supply?
(LAUGHTER) (APPLAUSE)
TATE: Well -- well, James, on the issue, which is the issue of the day, of helping people in need, Jesus said to love your neighbor as you love yourself.
CARVILLE: Right.
TATE: That's the most important thing that we can be doing.
And I think this program that the president has put out there enables grassroots organizations.
CARVILLE: Right.
TATE: It drills down -- little organizations and nonprofits at the local level that never had a chance prior to the president, under Bill Clinton for eight years, never had a chance, now have a chance to help and help children in need, at-risk children, gangs.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Is there biblical support for tax cuts for the wealthy? Do you think Jesus would be for this tax cut?
TATE: I'm not one of the people that say...
CARVILLE: I'm just trying to find out if he agrees with...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I didn't know.
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: He said pay your money...
(CROSSTALK)
TATE: He said render under Caesar what was due Caesar, James.
CARVILLE: OK.
BUCHANAN: Jesse, do you want to get into this discussion?
JACKSON: Well, Mr. Bush thinks he is Caesar.
(LAUGHTER)
JACKSON: But let me submit to you, he operates as a rich young ruler, giving benefits top down. He comes from mansion down, not manger up. He does not support programs for working poor people.
TATE: I mean, that's simply not true. We just had an election where, you know, the voters spoke in large numbers. People of religious faith, particularly evangelicals, voted overwhelmingly for this president, close to 70, 80 percent. They understand he is a person of faith. But he's also inclusive. And people understand that. And I think he's someone who is making a difference on these issues.
(CROSSTALK)
BUCHANAN: And he's trying to move money...
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: Many of those people saw...
(CROSSTALK)
BUCHANAN: Well use taxpayers' money, is what he's trying to do.
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: We have got to thank you both for being with us.
(CROSSTALK)
TATE: You bet.
BUCHANAN: Jesse, great to have you with us again.
JACKSON: Thank you.
BUCHANAN: Next, though, what are two things that make James Carville a very happy man?
And I hope it's clean, James.
Find out right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: This is a good time of year for a lot of folks. It's not quite spring, but there are still a lot of things going on to make people happy.
Valentine's Day, of course, was yesterday. And today, good news for Washington baseball fans. Washington National pitchers and catchers reported to spring training in Florida today. It's the first time in 24 years that Major League players are getting ready to play for a D.C. team. Opening day is only 48 days away.
The other pre-spring rite is also happening. "Sports Illustrated"'s swimsuit issue is on the newsstand. It features Carolyn Murphy, a blue-eyed blonde from Florida, on the cover. And they estimate one in five American adults will read the issue, me being one of them, or at least take a look. (LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: So there's enough to keep us busy until spring.
And, you know, the good news is, is, this is the first American in six years that's making that cover. And my friend Terry McDonell, who is the editor of "Sports Illustrated," better invite me down to the shoot next year, wherever they go.
(LAUGHTER)
BUCHANAN: They get racier and racier, James. What's the purpose? Why can't they have nice, tasteful bathing beauties? What's the problem?
CARVILLE: Very tasteful in a swimming suit. Women wear...
(CROSSTALK)
BUCHANAN: It's racier than ever. It's a race to the bottom.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... swimming suit. It's nice, tasteful. You know what? We like it. One in five Americans are voting for that.
BUCHANAN: Fine. A race to the bottom. "Sports Illustrated" has joined the race.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: They've been there. I love "Sports Illustrated."
From the left, I'm James Carville. Good night for CROSSFIRE.
BUCHANAN: That's it for CROSSFIRE. From the right, I'm Bay Buchanan. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
Wolf Blitzer joins us -- "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
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Aired February 15, 2005 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville, on the right, Bay Buchanan.
In the CROSSFIRE: A former White House official says the Bush administration hasn't kept its promises to actively promote faith- based programs. In 2000, candidate Bush called for $8 billion to promote religious charities and community groups. What's happened since then? The White House says compassionate conservatism is still a top priority for President Bush.
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president has made his faith-based and community initiative one of his highest priorities.
ANNOUNCER: Do these programs get real support from the White House and Congress? And do they work?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Bay Buchanan.
(APPLAUSE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: What happened to President Bush's promise to put government funds towards efforts of religious and community groups helping the poor and homeless? According to the former deputy director of the White House office in charge of that program, not much. We're going to get into that today.
On the right, Bay Buchanan, president of American Cause, joins me.
But, first, the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
One has to feel sorry for well-meaning religious conservatives who try to advance their agenda, as opposed to just acquiring power. David Kuo -- K-U-O -- and I'm not sure of the pronunciation -- if I have it wrong, I apologize -- who was deputy director of the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives during much of President Bush's first term, basically said that the Bush administration thinks the faith-based community is a bunch of fools. Of course -- and, of course, he's right. Kuo went on to say that the president received political benefits and has promised to help religious organizations win taxpayer funding to help -- to care for the least, the last and the lost. Mr. Kuo now realizes what every knowledgeable person in Washington knows. This administration is going to serve its powerful K Street masters and could care a less what a bunch of religious people think around the country unless there's an election going on.
(LAUGHTER)
BAY BUCHANAN, GUEST CO-HOST: James, that's not true at all.
CARVILLE: It's not?
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: No, it's not.
CARVILLE: OK.
BUCHANAN: He's upset because he was put in a position. The president didn't get everything he wanted, so he didn't have his $8 billion to spend.
CARVILLE: Right.
BUCHANAN: And that's what happens, as you well know, in this town. You don't always get everything you want. But he is committed...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: .. said he's got nothing. He said no one in the White House cared anything about this.
BUCHANAN: He has got executive directors.
CARVILLE: That they cared -- all they cared about -- well, I'm just saying what the man said, that you know what?
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: John DiIulio, who was there before him, said the same thing. At some point, you, as a real person of faith, ought to say, you know what? I'm tired of these people making a fool out of me, too.
(BELL RINGING)
CARVILLE: Because all they care about is what these interest groups say to give them money.
BUCHANAN: No, no, no. The president has definitely been for this. He did not get what he wanted and he's going to have to fight further for it. CARVILLE: You better talk to Mr. Kuo.
BUCHANAN: President Bush has also renominated 12 candidates to the federal bench.
Why did he have to renominate them? Democrats in the Senate blocked the confirmation of these jurists in his first term. Minority Leader Harry Reid has responded that the Senate shouldn't have to waste any more time redebating these nominees who were -- quote -- "too extreme."
First, Mr. Reid, the Senate never debated these nominees. Had they been given a full -- an opportunity to present themselves to a full Senate, they would have been confirmed, and with some Democratic support. And the next thing, Mr. Reid. The next reason they didn't get a vote is because they're pro-life, a position you could hardly call extreme, since it's one you hold yourself.
All the president asked is that decent Americans, these qualified, very qualified, respected jurists be given them a vote. Calling them extreme and refusing a vote is harmful to their reputations. And they deserve better from those who might call themselves the party of the people.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: You know, they can hold up people from now until the end of this century and never hold up as many people as you Republicans held up during the Clinton administration. I like the way these whiners say, oh, you can't do that to us, but we can do it to you.
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Come on. Get real. There's nobody that cares about all this foolishness.
(BELL RINGING)
BUCHANAN: Heck they don't. That's why we won two elections in a row.
CARVILLE: But because this is so unbelievable that the Bush administration could be this stupid, I'm going to read to you directly from the lead story in "USA Today."
And I am quoting: "The Food and Drug Administration's proposed budget for next year includes cuts in nearly all its inspection programs, from checks on imported foods, to review of overseas plants that make prescription drugs bound for the USA. If Congress approves, the number of domestic food safety inspections made next year would fall by 5 percent. Foreign drug plant inspections would drop by 5.8 percent. And checks on the nation's blood banks would be cut by 4.7 percent, compared with estimated 2005 inspections." Remember, last year, when the Bush administration said you couldn't go to Canada to get drugs because foreign-made drugs are unsafe? Well, now they want to cut U.S. inspections of foreign drug plants by 6 percent. They need drugs and a lot of them over there.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I'll tell you that.
BUCHANAN: James...
CARVILLE: This is like the...
BUCHANAN: It's an oversight. It must be an oversight. Surely...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: No. I had to read from it, because, when I saw it, I said, this can't be true. Nobody can be this stupid.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: But, guess what? They were.
BUCHANAN: We need that beef inspected. We're feeding that to our kids. Come on, guys. That is one of your jobs over there.
CARVILLE: Yes, I agree. And, you know, the blood supply, if I only got a little bit of my tax to know that we got the blood supply safe, thank you. I'm kind of for that.
(BELL RINGING)
BUCHANAN: There's a lot of waste that can be cut. Let's not go after the inspectors.
They gave out Grammy Awards this last Sunday with all the glitz and wealth of the music industry on display, mixing and mingling with none other than your tax dollars. That's right. Thanks to the sharp eye of Arizona Congressman Jeff Flake, we've learned that $150,000 of federal taxes goes to the Grammy Foundation, the music appreciation arm of the Recording Academy.
Consider the lyrics of one such winning song: "What else could I possibly do to make noise? I done touched everything but little boys."
(LAUGHTER)
BUCHANAN: Inspiring.
Many others, I couldn't even read on TV. I suspect, if some of these so-called artists were restricted from using four-letter words, they'd have to hum their tunes. But the congressman has raised a good question. Why are taxpayers subsidizing an organization made up of millionaire singers, producers and executives, which I might add gives honors to such trash?
Well, I think we have found some money for those inspectors, James.
CARVILLE: Well, you know what? I'll -- you know what? I could -- I think I wouldn't oppose it at all if they took the $150,000 they gave from the Grammy thing and put it to, say, inspect the blood supply of the United States.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: I think the average American would say, you know what? That makes a hell of a lot of sense to me.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
BUCHANAN: ... both on that one. I'll tell you.
CARVILLE: Well, I'll tell you what. President Bush has done a great job of turning speeches about religious values into votes. Well, his well publicized faith-based initiatives are little more than a sham. One of his debates says so. We'll debate the issue next.
And this is one of my favorite times of year. And I'll tell you why later on CROSSFIRE.
And we also want to report that Michael Chertoff has been confirmed unanimously by the United States Senate to be the next director of homeland security.
BUCHANAN: Excellent.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Thank you.
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to CROSSFIRE at the George Washington University, call 202-994-8CNN or visit our Web site. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. When George Bush first ran, let's see, ran for president -- that's right -- he promised to support religious and community efforts to help the poor. But now one of the people who helped run Bush's faith-based initiative says it never accomplished what it was supposed to. What's going on?
We're going to find out.
Here in the CROSSFIRE today, the Reverend Jesse Jackson, president of Rainbow/PUSH Coalition, joining us here from Nashville, Tennessee, as well as former Congressman Randy Tate, also former executive director of Christian Coalition.
I want to thank you both for being with us.
RANDY TATE (R), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: Good to be on.
(CROSSTALK)
BUCHANAN: James.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Basically, Congressman, John DiIulio, as I said before, said the same thing. My question is, why in the world would anyone be surprised at this? As I appreciate it, the pro-life doctrine is at the very heart of the Christian conservative movement. Where was the president when you guys were out marching for what is at the heart and soul of their movement, the pro-life march?
TATE: The president has proven his commitment to the pro-life issues.
CARVILLE: He was leading the march?
TATE: He did what your friend in -- President Clinton wouldn't do. He signed a bill to end partial-birth abortion in this country.
CARVILLE: Right. Right.
(CROSSTALK)
TATE: That's what he did.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Did he go out and march with you all?
TATE: It's not before standing before a rally.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: So he doesn't have to. You people -- you know, you really don't care. As long as you all get to votes, you don't care...
TATE: We're not interested in rallies. We're not interested in protests.
CARVILLE: Right.
TATE: We're interested in getting something done.
CARVILLE: Right.
TATE: And from a policy standpoint, this president has enhanced the culture of life in this country.
CARVILLE: But why wouldn't he be seen with you guys? Is he ashamed of you all? I'm serious. Is he -- don't you think he thinks you all are a little -- doesn't he take you guys and the people that vote for you and go to church on Sunday and listen to these sermons; doesn't he take you all for kind of fools?
TATE: James, absolutely not.
CARVILLE: Obviously -- OK.
TATE: No. I mean, no, no. I mean, that's just cheap rhetoric here on this show.
You know he takes his faith serious. He looks at all people of faith. This has been a president who believes that faith is something that transforms life, so much so, James, that he created a center within the federal government called the Center For Faith-Based and Community Initiatives.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Right.
TATE: Which he has put $1.1 billion into, based on a "Washington Post" story today.
CARVILLE: Right.
TATE: He is making changes in people's lives. You look what he's doing in the area of trying to help people that are in the greatest needs. Kids of inmates, he's providing mentoring programs. He's helping with the ready to work program; 650,000 ex-cons are going to come out of prison, going to come out of prison this year.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Let Bay go.
(CROSSTALK)
TATE: And they need someone and a program that is going to make a difference in their lives.
BUCHANAN: All right, Jesse, let me ask you, the president is, obviously, committed to these faith-based initiatives. He is.
Jesse, can you hear me?
REV. JESSE JACKSON, FOUNDER, RAINBOW/PUSH COALITION: I can hear you.
BUCHANAN: OK. Very good.
He's, obviously, quite committed to these faith-based initiatives and has spoken about it. He did not get what he wanted through Congress. So, let me ask you, do you not agree that if indeed these faith-based initiatives are successful, as they are, has been proven to be, that this is a good use of the -- it's a very good use to have of the -- of government money?
JACKSON: Every time he sticks out his hand, there's always something up his sleeve. So, I'm not surprised that faith-based is underfunded.
I'm not surprised that No Child Left Behind is underfunded. In the headlines last week, Bush officials spell out cuts and money for housing. Bush budget calls for cuts in health services. So, there simply is a commitment for tax cuts for the very wealthy and job cuts for working people and no commitment to lifting the boat stuck at the bottom.
BUCHANAN: What about the initiative, Jesse? He has obviously -- he didn't get it through Congress. He went and does an executive director and makes certain that all of these faith-based organizations have a real opportunity to get these grants. He has pushed that like no one else. Now, what about that? That goes directly to those who are in need.
JACKSON: This has been deceptive, because it covers so few people.
For example, there are 45 million Americans who have no health insurance. You cannot handle that with a faith-based initiative grant, for example.
(LAUGHTER)
JACKSON: Or you have a cut to Pell Grants for students who want to stay in school, that cannot help those. And there's no relationship between the needs and the grassroots and preachers he's trying to target to get their votes.
CARVILLE: Congressman, let me ask you. I want to go to this, because you and Bay said president is committed to it.
Now, Mr. Kuo was appointed by this president.
TATE: Right.
CARVILLE: This is what he said, not me, not Reverend Jackson, my dear friend. This is what he said. He said that: "The White House reaped political benefits from the president's promise to help religious organizations win taxpayer funding." He said -- quote -- "There was minimal senior White House commitment to the faith-based agenda" and said Republicans were guilty of "snoring indifference" -- "snoring indifference." This is what, not James Carville not Reverend Jackson, the man that George W. Bush put as a deputy director in his program. That doesn't concern you as a leader of the faith-based community?
TATE: Well, you forgot the next line where he said that Democrats reacted in a knee-jerk reactionary opposition to anything that's religious.
CARVILLE: I agree. But they're not -- you're a Republican.
TATE: At the end of the day...
(APPLAUSE)
TATE: At the end of the day -- no, James.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You're not troubled by this?
TATE: No. Let me make a point.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You're not troubled? You tell these people to vote for these people and they have "snoring indifference" to the needs of your community?
TATE: No. It's just the opposite, James.
One, I know David. David is someone who passionate about these issues and he wants more to happen.
CARVILLE: Is he a liar?
TATE: But you know what? Within the political -- within the political world...
CARVILLE: Right. Right.
TATE: Within the political world here in Washington, George Bush has done an amazing job moving this thing forward.
Look, there's 10 agencies now, James, that have...
CARVILLE: Is David a liar?
TATE: Ten agencies now that have individuals in those agencies eliminating the roadblocks.
Before, if a group called, for example, the Metropolitan Council For Jewish Poverty had the name Jewish in its title, they couldn't get a grant. (CROSSTALK)
TATE: Now they can get a grant and try to make a difference in their lives. So, there was discrimination. This now levels...
CARVILLE: Is this man a liar?
TATE: No. He has a different...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Let me read what he said.
(CROSSTALK)
TATE: James, he has a different perspective on what happened.
But you cannot ignore the reality that $1.1 billion was spent.
CARVILLE: Right.
TATE: That this is -- that groups now that under the Clinton administration couldn't get a grant now can get a grant.
CARVILLE: So you're satisfied. OK. All right. I think that...
BUCHANAN: Jesse, you want to talk about another issue, but we're here to talk about faith-based initiatives. There's millions of organizations across this country that do terrific work because they're based on faith. They're very successful to change the spirit of somebody.
And that's how it's done, using faith. Do you not agree that, when there is a government program that is a secular program and there's an opportunity for money, taxpayer money, to be used on a faith-based, which is much more successful, that the president hasn't done the right thing to try to move some of this money away from secular to the faith, where money, taxpayers' money, is better used?
JACKSON: Bay, Bay, long before Mr. Bush said faith-based initiative, we got something called Section 8 housing built by many churches. But now he has raised the bar on eligibility for Section 8 housing and cut the budget for public housing.
So, if you cut public housing and cut public health services and cut Upward Bound and cut Pell Grants, that's far more than the value of these grants. It's just irrational to me and unfair to have a $5 billion commitment a month to Iraq and permanent tax cuts the top 10 percent and no plan to reinvest in those boats stuck at the bottom. That's fundamentally unfair.
TATE: And it's irrational.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
TATE: It's irrational, Reverend Jackson, to discriminate against religious organizations, which occurred for years until the Bush administrators came in, just because they had a faith component. They change people lives. They have a lower recidivism rate. And they're programs that work.
JACKSON: Well, we live on our faith, but we live under the law.
So, when Congressman Jesse Jr. asked the president last week, will you support voting rights extension 2007, he said, I don't know what you're talking about. So, if he will not voting rights extension, now he want to use black people's short life expectancy to justify privatizing Social Security, we're not all fools. We're not stupid. We know better. He's given us a hand, while, up his sleeves, there's something deceptive and wrong. And we all as Americans deserve better.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: And with that, we're going to have to take a quick break.
Next, could Senator Hillary Clinton be the next one to pick up on faith-based initiatives and run with them?
And did the antidepressant drug Zoloft cause a Southern South Carolina boy to kill his grandparents? Wolf Blitzer tells us what the jury said right after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, new fallout from that deadly bomb attack in Lebanon. There's an angry Bush administration protest. The U.S. ambassador to Syria is being called back to Washington.
A South Carolina jury rejects the so-called Zoloft defense; 15- year-old Christopher Pittman is sentenced to prison for his murder of his grandparents.
And a television interview turns into an ugly fight. We'll show you the pictures.
All those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
We haven't turned into a fight yet, but, anyway, we're on our way.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: George W. Bush picked a lot of support when he fashioned himself as a compassionate conservative, but it doesn't seem to have turned into results so far for his faith-based initiatives.
Still in the CROSSFIRE, Randy Tate, former executive director of the Christian Coalition, and the Reverend Jesse Jackson of the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition.
BUCHANAN: Jesse, I want to try one more time here. And I know you don't like a lot of the president's budget, but we're talking faith-based initiative here.
And it seems that Hillary Clinton understands it very clearly. She has endorsed it, supporting it now and talking about something. It appears that this could be some -- a major issue. Do you think that Democrats recognize that this country has an enormous number of votes that are religious based and that they might now pass a faith- based initiative for the president?
JACKSON: Well, an unfunded mandate is the whole of a doughnut. Faith-based initiative is a good idea, but unfunded, it's simply vapor.
Pell Grants is a good idea, but unfunded. Section 8 housing is a good idea, but unfunded. He shows his priorities. What does he give to the rich? Tax cuts. Offshore to avoid paying taxes. What does he give to his priorities? Five billion dollars a month in the choice of war in Iraq.
BUCHANAN: But what about Democrats? Are they going to pick this one up and run with it? Hillary obviously is.
JACKSON: Well, I would think that Democrats need to focus on something more fundamental, A, the right to vote being extended, B, a plan to incentivize, reinvest in America and put America back to work.
That is the faith-based I could see, a commitment to stop exporting capital and exporting jobs and importing cheap labor and cheap products. Let's put America back to work. That would be a great expression of faith and substance working together.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Congressman, we all remember religious conservatives, some of them saying that there were biblical roots in the president's tax cuts for the wealthy.
I'm wondering, in your mind, could you conjure up any doctrinal support, any biblical sayings that would support the president's desire to the cut inspections to, say, the blood supply or the food supply or something like that?
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: Did Jesus -- is there any kind of way we can maybe go back and see that Jesus would have favored cutting inspections of blood supply?
(LAUGHTER) (APPLAUSE)
TATE: Well -- well, James, on the issue, which is the issue of the day, of helping people in need, Jesus said to love your neighbor as you love yourself.
CARVILLE: Right.
TATE: That's the most important thing that we can be doing.
And I think this program that the president has put out there enables grassroots organizations.
CARVILLE: Right.
TATE: It drills down -- little organizations and nonprofits at the local level that never had a chance prior to the president, under Bill Clinton for eight years, never had a chance, now have a chance to help and help children in need, at-risk children, gangs.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Is there biblical support for tax cuts for the wealthy? Do you think Jesus would be for this tax cut?
TATE: I'm not one of the people that say...
CARVILLE: I'm just trying to find out if he agrees with...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I didn't know.
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: He said pay your money...
(CROSSTALK)
TATE: He said render under Caesar what was due Caesar, James.
CARVILLE: OK.
BUCHANAN: Jesse, do you want to get into this discussion?
JACKSON: Well, Mr. Bush thinks he is Caesar.
(LAUGHTER)
JACKSON: But let me submit to you, he operates as a rich young ruler, giving benefits top down. He comes from mansion down, not manger up. He does not support programs for working poor people.
TATE: I mean, that's simply not true. We just had an election where, you know, the voters spoke in large numbers. People of religious faith, particularly evangelicals, voted overwhelmingly for this president, close to 70, 80 percent. They understand he is a person of faith. But he's also inclusive. And people understand that. And I think he's someone who is making a difference on these issues.
(CROSSTALK)
BUCHANAN: And he's trying to move money...
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: Many of those people saw...
(CROSSTALK)
BUCHANAN: Well use taxpayers' money, is what he's trying to do.
(APPLAUSE)
BUCHANAN: We have got to thank you both for being with us.
(CROSSTALK)
TATE: You bet.
BUCHANAN: Jesse, great to have you with us again.
JACKSON: Thank you.
BUCHANAN: Next, though, what are two things that make James Carville a very happy man?
And I hope it's clean, James.
Find out right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: This is a good time of year for a lot of folks. It's not quite spring, but there are still a lot of things going on to make people happy.
Valentine's Day, of course, was yesterday. And today, good news for Washington baseball fans. Washington National pitchers and catchers reported to spring training in Florida today. It's the first time in 24 years that Major League players are getting ready to play for a D.C. team. Opening day is only 48 days away.
The other pre-spring rite is also happening. "Sports Illustrated"'s swimsuit issue is on the newsstand. It features Carolyn Murphy, a blue-eyed blonde from Florida, on the cover. And they estimate one in five American adults will read the issue, me being one of them, or at least take a look. (LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: So there's enough to keep us busy until spring.
And, you know, the good news is, is, this is the first American in six years that's making that cover. And my friend Terry McDonell, who is the editor of "Sports Illustrated," better invite me down to the shoot next year, wherever they go.
(LAUGHTER)
BUCHANAN: They get racier and racier, James. What's the purpose? Why can't they have nice, tasteful bathing beauties? What's the problem?
CARVILLE: Very tasteful in a swimming suit. Women wear...
(CROSSTALK)
BUCHANAN: It's racier than ever. It's a race to the bottom.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... swimming suit. It's nice, tasteful. You know what? We like it. One in five Americans are voting for that.
BUCHANAN: Fine. A race to the bottom. "Sports Illustrated" has joined the race.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: They've been there. I love "Sports Illustrated."
From the left, I'm James Carville. Good night for CROSSFIRE.
BUCHANAN: That's it for CROSSFIRE. From the right, I'm Bay Buchanan. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
Wolf Blitzer joins us -- "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
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