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CNN Crossfire
Greatest President?
Aired February 18, 2005 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak.
In the CROSSFIRE: From the birth of a nation to the shadows of terrorism, rating the men at the top as we approach President's Day.
FRANKLIN DELANO ROOSEVELT, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon.
JOHN F. KENNEDY, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country.
RONALD REAGAN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.
ANNOUNCER: Americans make their pick for greatest U.S. president of all time. Who is it and does he deserve the title? If not, who does?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Monday is President's Day. And of the 43 presidents of the United States, whom do you think was the greatest? Well, a Gallup poll asked that very question of the American people just last week.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: We have the results today, and they may or may not surprise you.
First, however, the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
The biggest stars of last summer's Republican National Convention in New York City was Senator Zell Miller, conservative Democrat from Georgia, and the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth.
Democrat Miller was widely regarded as the best speaker at the Republican Convention as he tore the hide off his erstwhile compatriots. The Swift Boat Vets told the truth about the war record of Senator John Kerry.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Tonight, in Washington, Zell Miller and the vets meet at the annual CONSERVATIVE Political Action Conference, CPAC, the senator awarding them the Courage Under Fire Award. That's well deserved, though ex-Marine and full-time patriot Zell Miller could be the recipient, as well as the presenter.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, you know, Bob, have a long history with Zell Miller. I worked for him for years and years and years. I'm just curious. Did you think he was so courageous when he called John Kerry -- and I'm quoting Zell's words here -- a genuine American hero? That's what Zell called John Kerry.
NOVAK: Let me tell you something. The most important thing in life and politics is growth. And I even have some hope that, as you get a little older, a little mature, a little wiser, you may grow.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: I think the most important thing -- I think the most important thing is truth. And it was slimy and cowardly for those men to say that John Kerry did not earn his medals.
NOVAK: Oh, knock it off.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: He earned them. He bled for our country. And he deserves respect and honor for his service.
NOVAK: Knock it off.
BEGALA: Well, 54 years ago this month, Oliver Brown, with the help of the NAACP, sued the Topeka, Kansas, school board, claiming that the practice of segregating black and white school children was unconstitutional.
His case was ultimately joined by 200 other brave Americans from across the country. Many different states came together in a class- action lawsuit. And that class-action lawsuit changed America for the better. President Bush today signed into law one of the right-wing's fondest dreams, a severe crackdown on lawsuits like Mr. Brown's.
Class-action lawsuits have been a means by which ordinary consumers, seniors, minorities and others who lack the power and money of big corporations have joined together to seek justice. Mr. Bush likes to demonize trial lawyers. But the truth is, the lawyers will be just fine. It's consumers who get hammered.
NOVAK: You know, that's just silly, to say that this was an attempt to stop civil rights lawsuits.
This is a big lawyers' lobby. They get -- they go into these strange places, like Madison County, Illinois, to do lawsuits where they're going to get big verdicts. Parts of your state of Texas, they get them. And, actually, what it is, it's the biggest fund-raising special interest group of the Democratic Party are the trial lawyers.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: They killed an amendment to protect...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: What -- what in the world did Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton do to get such anger among -- among her -- one of her -- Hollywood producer and record company owner David Geffen to get him so mad at her? He's a billionaire, a pal of Bill Clinton, and a big Democratic contributor.
So what he said about Hillary last night in New York was remarkable -- quote -- "She can't win and she's an incredibly polarizing figure. And ambition is just not a good enough reason" -- end quote. But Senator Clinton is aiming at a much larger group than Hollywood billionaires. She's aiming at the criminal class. The bill she introduced yesterday would permit an estimated 4.7 million felons to vote. And, of course, most of these felons are Democrats.
BEGALA: But what about...
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: But what about -- what about George W. Bush, who has hired Elliott Abrams? Elliott Abrams is a convicted felon and he's at the top of George Bush's national security team. If a convicted felon can work for George Bush in the White House, why can't a convicted felon vote?
NOVAK: You're wrong. You're wrong.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: He's not a convicted felon.
BEGALA: Yes, he is.
NOVAK: The case was reversed.
BEGALA: He was pardoned.
NOVAK: It was reversed.
BEGALA: He still was convicted. It's a pardon.
NOVAK: He's not a felon. As a lawyer, you should know the difference between that.
BEGALA: He is a convicted felon.
Well, attorney general -- speaking of the law, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales is going after alleged pornographers in California. He might consider starting a little closer to home, say, in the White House press room. Bush aides gave James Guckert, AKA Jeff Gannon, a White House pass to the White House press room for two years, despite his ties to a Republican propaganda site and despite his apparent ties to gay, pornographic and escort services.
Perhaps he got those passes because he lobbed biased, conservative softballs at the president and at his spokesman. David Brock, the chief watchdog at Media Matters For America, has called on White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan to tighten up the rules for day passes.
And Congresswoman Louise Slaughter has called on the Bush White House to come clean about its relationship with Gannon, Guckert, whoever he is, including, why was he given a press pass even before he claimed to be a reporter for the right-wing Talon News.
Just why was this man given a press pass, Bob? Do you have any idea?
NOVAK: I understand -- and this is shocking to me -- that anybody can walk in there and say that he is writing for the communist journal or the fascist bugle and, if he has a driver's license, a driver's license, he can get press credentials.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: That's a bad system.
BEGALA: Well, you're right about that.
Well, the Gallup poll asked Americans who they think the greatest American president ever was. We'll tell you what your fellow country men and women said in just a moment.
And then we'll ask two former aides to two former presidents where they think their man stacks up.
And, last night, former President Bill Clinton was the top gun at an event with Steven Spielberg and Tom Cruise. We'll tell you why later on CROSSFIRE.
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to CROSSFIRE at the George Washington University, call 202-994-8CNN or visit our Web site. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE) NOVAK: Who do you consider the greatest president ever to lead the United States? In this year's pre-President's Day Gallup poll, America's 40th president, Ronald Reagan, was the top voter...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: With 20 percent.
No. 2, with 15 percent -- you can't win them all -- was Democrat Bill Clinton, our most recent past president. Cry in your beard, George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. Those are the guys America thinks are the best.
Joining us in the CROSSFIRE to talk about Oval Office occupants past and present, Ron Klain, Democratic strategist who served as an adviser to President Clinton, and Republican strategist Frank Donatelli, who served as White House political director during the Reagan administration.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Good to see you both again.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Frank, it's good to see you again.
FRANK DONATELLI, FORMER REAGAN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Thank you, Paul. Good to see you.
BEGALA: As you could hear from the audience, as you can see from this poll, your old boss Ronald Reagan has an enormous number of admirers. Here's how the poll came out in entirety, at least the first several tier of presidents.
First, Ronald Reagan at 20 percent, Bill Clinton at 15, then Abraham Lincoln. Seems kind of odd, even as a Clinton guy, to see President Clinton ahead of Lincoln, or Ronald Reagan ahead of Lincoln for that matter, but then FDR and JFK. Way down, though, in the single digits is George W. Bush, tied with another George W., Washington, which, again, seems sort of odd to me.
And so, you know what I did? I looked at the Gallup press release on this. And they split out the partisans. Democrats love Clinton. Republicans love Reagan. That makes sense to me. So they only looked at independents. Now, here's what independents -- strikingly different.
Abraham Lincoln is first, which I think is sensible, FDR second, a great choice, JFK third, Bill Clinton fourth, Ronald Reagan fifth, Washington sixth, Jimmy Carter seventh, Thomas Jefferson eight, Teddy Roosevelt nine, Richard Nixon 10, Harry Truman 11, and George W. Bush 12.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: You really stink if you're way behind Nixon, don't you? George Bush is in a lot of trouble, isn't he?
(LAUGHTER)
DONATELLI: No, I don't think so at all.
First of all, it's great that so many young people in your audience are for Ronald Reagan. And they were barely alive...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: I think that is -- that's a wonderful thing.
DONATELLI: They were barely alive when he was president.
But, look, as George W. Bush is concerned, he still is in the White House, only four years into his presidency. I agree that much still needs to be written about his presidential years. I think, though, that he's in excellent shape maybe to be one of our great presidents. It's just premature.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Ron, Ron Klain, I have a little trouble associating Bill Clinton and greatest president in the history of the country together. And I'm not sure -- I can't remember anything very good that he did. But what I...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: But what I -- but something -- something bad that he said kind of disqualifies him. And let's listen to the most famous quote that people remember Bill Clinton for.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM J. CLINTON, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: All you have got to say is, "I did not" and everybody knows what it is. That's a disqualifier, isn't it?
RON KLAIN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Look, obviously, even I, as a Clinton loyal and Clinton partisan, think that Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson are probably better presidents than Bill Clinton.
But I think what's outstanding about this list is it shows, notwithstanding how recent in the past that was and the controversy around that, Americans, Democrats, Republicans, even independents rate Bill Clinton very highly for the success he had as our president in terms of balancing the budget, bringing prosperity, bringing peace, bringing security, welfare reform.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
KLAIN: Bob, if you've forgotten that stuff, you've got...
NOVAK: Reducing taxes? I paid higher taxes with him.
KLAIN: Reducing crime, making this country a better place, making this country a safer place.
Bill Clinton had a tremendous record of achievement. It's no surprise that he does very, very well. And, as Paul says, I think the real news here is that our current president is three notches below -- is three notches below Richard Nixon on this list.
NOVAK: He just got reelected.
KLAIN: I mean, I'm sorry.
But you know what? The truth is, it's no surprise. I think, if you're the president of the United States and you try to undue the kind of respect around the world we had under President Kennedy, under the prosperity of Bill Clinton, under the Social Security system of FDR, it's no surprise. You're going to be far down on that list.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: And, in fact, Frank, I do think -- I do think the contrast between our current conservative president and your former boss Ronald Reagan, also a conservative president, serves Reagan well and serves Bush poorly.
Let me give you an example. One of the probably the greatest day of tragedy of the Reagan presidency was the day the Challenger blew up, live on national television. School children all across the country were watching it live. And I am sure you recall how President Reagan handled it. Let me show you a piece of videotape of Ronald Reagan that day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REAGAN: I want to say something to the schoolchildren of America who were watching the live coverage of the shuttle's takeoff. I know it's hard to understand, but, sometimes, painful things like this happen. It's all part of the process of exploration and discovery.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Now, obviously, I didn't agree with President Reagan's political agenda, but that is strength, courage, resolve, really what a president ought to be.
Let me contrast that with President George W. Bush on the great day of tragedy in his presidency on 9/11, when he, too, happened to be with schoolchildren.
Here's President Bush.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: Ladies and gentlemen, this is a difficult moment for America. I, unfortunately, will be going back to Washington after my remarks. Secretary Rod Paige and the lieutenant governor will take the podium and discuss education. I do want to thank the folks here at Booker Elementary School for their hospitality.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: He's weak. He's wobbly. He's stammering. What a difference.
DONATELLI: Well, what you didn't show there is the speech that President Bush gave about a week later.
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, it took him a week to get his breath. Thank goodness there were scriptwriters.
DONATELLI: It was a terrific speech. It was a terrific speech.
BEGALA: In about nine days. It took about nine day. He got his foot and he gave a very good -- he read a very good speech.
DONATELLI: One of the best speeches ever.
BEGALA: That other men wrote for him to the Congress.
DONATELLI: OK.
BEGALA: My question is, why, under fire, was Reagan so strong and steady and Bush so weak and wobbly?
DONATELLI: I think there are a number of similarities between President Reagan, who was my president, of course, and President Bush. Both of them faced a clear challenge. Both of them had clear goals.
BEGALA: And one wet his pants and the other stood strong.
(APPLAUSE)
DONATELLI: Both of them had clear goals. President Bush is doing a great job dealing with the war on terror. That's his great challenge. Reagan's great challenge was the fight against communism.
With all due respect to Ron, unlike President Clinton, both of them have boldness and fortitude. Clinton believed in triangulation, which meant a little from here, a little from there. And it's a muddle in the final analysis.
KLAIN: You know... DONATELLI: Both Reagan and Bush have clear, decisive leadership.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Ron, we used President Clinton's most famous words: "I did not have sex with that woman."
Let me give you the five most, six most famous words of Ronald Reagan. Let's just put them up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REAGAN: Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Now, that -- that's historic, isn't it? It isn't like having a little tax bill or a little something here? That's something we can remember and be proud of, isn't it?
KLAIN: Look, even as a partisan Democrat, I take nothing away from Ronald Reagan's leadership and his stalwartness against communism. He is, I think, should be on this list of one of the great presidents.
My point, though, is this. Bill Clinton also should also be on that list for leading this country at a very difficult time, achieving prosperity, getting us out of years of debt, including, let's face it, a lot of debt our friend Ronald Reagan built up on this country.
NOVAK: OK.
KLAIN: Balancing the budget, getting this country to grow through the 1990s and be strong in the next century.
NOVAK: We've got to take a...
KLAIN: And Clinton belongs on that list, too, for those reasons.
NOVAK: We have got to take a break.
And when we come back, we'll ask a real good question. We won't ask Paul, though. Is George W. Bush underrated?
And just ahead, the latest on why religious sites are being targeted in Iraq this weekend.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Judy Woodruff, reporting from Washington. Coming up at the top of the hour, a very bloody day in Iraq. Observers say it's an attempt to exploit religious tensions on the eve of a holiday.
Photos show a tunnel under construction in Iran. Is it evidence of a nuclear weapons program?
And Blockbuster says it abolished late fees. Now it is accused of fraud.
All those stories and much more just minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
BEGALA: Thank you, Judy. We look forward to your report at the top of the hour.
Meanwhile, here on CROSSFIRE, we're talking about former presidents and greatness. Twenty percent of Americans have told a new Gallup poll that Ronald Reagan was the greatest of America's 43 presidents.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Bill Clinton was close behind in second place, with 15 percent. But our current president, George W. Bush, didn't even make the top five. And among independents, he's a pathetic 12th, trailing Richard Nixon.
Our guests today, Republican strategist Frank Donatelli and Democratic strategist Ron Klain.
NOVAK: You know, Ron, I think Paul will use any occasion to attack our president, President George W. Bush.
BEGALA: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: But let's look -- let's look at him at his best, when America was staggering and it needed leadership, and he gave it. Let's listen to him on September 14, 2001.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: I can hear you. The rest of the world hears you. And the people and the people...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BUSH: And the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: That was a good performance, wasn't it?
KLAIN: Oh, I think -- I think -- I think that was an exceptional performance. I think his speech before a joint session of Congress was an exceptional performance.
It's what happened since then that has been the problem. And it's why he's so down on this list, so down on the list not only among Democrats, but among independents, 12th, 13th, wherever he is on this list, because of his performance as president. That was a great moment, but why don't we run the tape of him saying mission accomplished before 1,000 more Americans were killed in Iraq?
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: He never said anything about...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Never said it. Never said it. He never said that.
KLAIN: Why don't we run the tape of him sitting in front of a banner that the White House...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: He never said that.
KLAIN: OK?
(CROSSTALK)
KLAIN: Why don't we run the tape of him standing up there saying he wants to undue Social Security?
Look, the problem is...
NOVAK: He never said he's going to undue Social...
(CROSSTALK)
KLAIN: The problem is that President Bush has a record of failure.
NOVAK: He didn't say that.
KLAIN: And that's why it's no surprise he's so far down on this list.
NOVAK: That's how he got reelected. That's how he got reelected by 3.5 million votes. KLAIN: He's a good politician, a bad president.
BEGALA: Frank, your old boss Ronald Reagan, beloved particularly in Eastern Europe, former communist world. You can go there and see people who still revere Ronald Reagan. If you go to Asia, Africa, Latin America, you see Americans who revere Bill Clinton and John Kennedy, great Democratic presidents.
All around the world, George W. Bush is loathed. And let me show you the difference. This is what a real leader looks like leading the world.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Here's my old boss Bill Clinton helping to bring peace to the Middle East. He did more to bring peace to that troubled region than any American president, when he brought the Israeli prime minister, Rabin, the Palestinian Authority leader, Arafat, and got them to shake hands. No one even knew that they would do it until that moment.
And that was an image that went around the world. America never been more respected in the world than when Bill Clinton was working toward peace. How did we go slide so far so fast under George W. Bush, where now the whole world hates us?
DONATELLI: First of all, under Clinton and under Reagan, they had plenty of detractors. It's only revisionist history now to think they didn't.
But, I believe, Paul, the day will come when people all throughout the Middle East and especially Iraq will look to George W. Bush as their liberator, much as the East, the old Eastern Bloc looks at...
BEGALA: We will be greeted as liberators. It will just take a while.
DONATELLI: ... Ronald Reagan as their -- as his liberator.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Did I, did I, did I miss something or did Bill Clinton, did his last failed attempt to get peace result in the second intifada and all the bloodshed that we have had? Am I wrong? Did I miss something?
KLAIN: Well, I think what you might have missed, Bob, was when this president took his eye off the ball of the Middle East for the first year of his presidency, the situation got worse, that we're still digging out from that hole.
NOVAK: He didn't inherent the second intifada?
KLAIN: Bill Clinton, Bill Clinton, Bill Clinton brought peace to the Middle East. He brought peace to Northern Ireland. NOVAK: OK.
KLAIN: He brought peace all over this world because he stayed engage and he fought for peace.
NOVAK: Ron Klain, Frank Donatelli, thank you very much, gentlemen.
BEGALA: Thank you.
DONATELLI: Thank you, Paul.
NOVAK: Just ahead, Bill Clinton was hanging out with his Hollywood friends again last night. What else? We'll tell you why right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, speaking of former presidents, Bill Clinton and George H.W. Bush are beginning to act a little like the superhero former presidents in Robert Smigel's "Saturday Night Live" cartoons, without the naughty parts, of course. The dynamic duo is bound for Thailand on a goodwill mission to areas hit hard by December's South Asia tsunami.
And, last night, before taking off on this relief effort, Mr. Clinton was in Los Angeles to receive an award for his good works. Director Steven Spielberg presented the former president with the Ambassadors for Humanity Award. The event was hosted by actor Tom Cruise for the Shoah Foundation, which was established by Spielberg in 1994 with the goals of promoting tolerance, cultural understanding and mutual respect. So, congratulations, Mr. President.
NOVAK: Paul, do you think, on the way to Thailand, the old President Bush will ask Clinton why he told so many lies about him in 1992?
BEGALA: He told the truth about him and he gave him hell. And that's why Clinton won.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Bush had -- had not done a very good. And we got a new president.
From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak.
Join me tomorrow at 2:30 p.m. Eastern for "THE NOVAK ZONE." My guest will be the great actor and former Senator Fred Thompson.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired February 18, 2005 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak.
In the CROSSFIRE: From the birth of a nation to the shadows of terrorism, rating the men at the top as we approach President's Day.
FRANKLIN DELANO ROOSEVELT, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon.
JOHN F. KENNEDY, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country.
RONALD REAGAN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.
ANNOUNCER: Americans make their pick for greatest U.S. president of all time. Who is it and does he deserve the title? If not, who does?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Monday is President's Day. And of the 43 presidents of the United States, whom do you think was the greatest? Well, a Gallup poll asked that very question of the American people just last week.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: We have the results today, and they may or may not surprise you.
First, however, the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
The biggest stars of last summer's Republican National Convention in New York City was Senator Zell Miller, conservative Democrat from Georgia, and the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth.
Democrat Miller was widely regarded as the best speaker at the Republican Convention as he tore the hide off his erstwhile compatriots. The Swift Boat Vets told the truth about the war record of Senator John Kerry.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Tonight, in Washington, Zell Miller and the vets meet at the annual CONSERVATIVE Political Action Conference, CPAC, the senator awarding them the Courage Under Fire Award. That's well deserved, though ex-Marine and full-time patriot Zell Miller could be the recipient, as well as the presenter.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, you know, Bob, have a long history with Zell Miller. I worked for him for years and years and years. I'm just curious. Did you think he was so courageous when he called John Kerry -- and I'm quoting Zell's words here -- a genuine American hero? That's what Zell called John Kerry.
NOVAK: Let me tell you something. The most important thing in life and politics is growth. And I even have some hope that, as you get a little older, a little mature, a little wiser, you may grow.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: I think the most important thing -- I think the most important thing is truth. And it was slimy and cowardly for those men to say that John Kerry did not earn his medals.
NOVAK: Oh, knock it off.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: He earned them. He bled for our country. And he deserves respect and honor for his service.
NOVAK: Knock it off.
BEGALA: Well, 54 years ago this month, Oliver Brown, with the help of the NAACP, sued the Topeka, Kansas, school board, claiming that the practice of segregating black and white school children was unconstitutional.
His case was ultimately joined by 200 other brave Americans from across the country. Many different states came together in a class- action lawsuit. And that class-action lawsuit changed America for the better. President Bush today signed into law one of the right-wing's fondest dreams, a severe crackdown on lawsuits like Mr. Brown's.
Class-action lawsuits have been a means by which ordinary consumers, seniors, minorities and others who lack the power and money of big corporations have joined together to seek justice. Mr. Bush likes to demonize trial lawyers. But the truth is, the lawyers will be just fine. It's consumers who get hammered.
NOVAK: You know, that's just silly, to say that this was an attempt to stop civil rights lawsuits.
This is a big lawyers' lobby. They get -- they go into these strange places, like Madison County, Illinois, to do lawsuits where they're going to get big verdicts. Parts of your state of Texas, they get them. And, actually, what it is, it's the biggest fund-raising special interest group of the Democratic Party are the trial lawyers.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: They killed an amendment to protect...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: What -- what in the world did Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton do to get such anger among -- among her -- one of her -- Hollywood producer and record company owner David Geffen to get him so mad at her? He's a billionaire, a pal of Bill Clinton, and a big Democratic contributor.
So what he said about Hillary last night in New York was remarkable -- quote -- "She can't win and she's an incredibly polarizing figure. And ambition is just not a good enough reason" -- end quote. But Senator Clinton is aiming at a much larger group than Hollywood billionaires. She's aiming at the criminal class. The bill she introduced yesterday would permit an estimated 4.7 million felons to vote. And, of course, most of these felons are Democrats.
BEGALA: But what about...
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: But what about -- what about George W. Bush, who has hired Elliott Abrams? Elliott Abrams is a convicted felon and he's at the top of George Bush's national security team. If a convicted felon can work for George Bush in the White House, why can't a convicted felon vote?
NOVAK: You're wrong. You're wrong.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: He's not a convicted felon.
BEGALA: Yes, he is.
NOVAK: The case was reversed.
BEGALA: He was pardoned.
NOVAK: It was reversed.
BEGALA: He still was convicted. It's a pardon.
NOVAK: He's not a felon. As a lawyer, you should know the difference between that.
BEGALA: He is a convicted felon.
Well, attorney general -- speaking of the law, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales is going after alleged pornographers in California. He might consider starting a little closer to home, say, in the White House press room. Bush aides gave James Guckert, AKA Jeff Gannon, a White House pass to the White House press room for two years, despite his ties to a Republican propaganda site and despite his apparent ties to gay, pornographic and escort services.
Perhaps he got those passes because he lobbed biased, conservative softballs at the president and at his spokesman. David Brock, the chief watchdog at Media Matters For America, has called on White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan to tighten up the rules for day passes.
And Congresswoman Louise Slaughter has called on the Bush White House to come clean about its relationship with Gannon, Guckert, whoever he is, including, why was he given a press pass even before he claimed to be a reporter for the right-wing Talon News.
Just why was this man given a press pass, Bob? Do you have any idea?
NOVAK: I understand -- and this is shocking to me -- that anybody can walk in there and say that he is writing for the communist journal or the fascist bugle and, if he has a driver's license, a driver's license, he can get press credentials.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: That's a bad system.
BEGALA: Well, you're right about that.
Well, the Gallup poll asked Americans who they think the greatest American president ever was. We'll tell you what your fellow country men and women said in just a moment.
And then we'll ask two former aides to two former presidents where they think their man stacks up.
And, last night, former President Bill Clinton was the top gun at an event with Steven Spielberg and Tom Cruise. We'll tell you why later on CROSSFIRE.
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to CROSSFIRE at the George Washington University, call 202-994-8CNN or visit our Web site. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE) NOVAK: Who do you consider the greatest president ever to lead the United States? In this year's pre-President's Day Gallup poll, America's 40th president, Ronald Reagan, was the top voter...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: With 20 percent.
No. 2, with 15 percent -- you can't win them all -- was Democrat Bill Clinton, our most recent past president. Cry in your beard, George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. Those are the guys America thinks are the best.
Joining us in the CROSSFIRE to talk about Oval Office occupants past and present, Ron Klain, Democratic strategist who served as an adviser to President Clinton, and Republican strategist Frank Donatelli, who served as White House political director during the Reagan administration.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Good to see you both again.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Frank, it's good to see you again.
FRANK DONATELLI, FORMER REAGAN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Thank you, Paul. Good to see you.
BEGALA: As you could hear from the audience, as you can see from this poll, your old boss Ronald Reagan has an enormous number of admirers. Here's how the poll came out in entirety, at least the first several tier of presidents.
First, Ronald Reagan at 20 percent, Bill Clinton at 15, then Abraham Lincoln. Seems kind of odd, even as a Clinton guy, to see President Clinton ahead of Lincoln, or Ronald Reagan ahead of Lincoln for that matter, but then FDR and JFK. Way down, though, in the single digits is George W. Bush, tied with another George W., Washington, which, again, seems sort of odd to me.
And so, you know what I did? I looked at the Gallup press release on this. And they split out the partisans. Democrats love Clinton. Republicans love Reagan. That makes sense to me. So they only looked at independents. Now, here's what independents -- strikingly different.
Abraham Lincoln is first, which I think is sensible, FDR second, a great choice, JFK third, Bill Clinton fourth, Ronald Reagan fifth, Washington sixth, Jimmy Carter seventh, Thomas Jefferson eight, Teddy Roosevelt nine, Richard Nixon 10, Harry Truman 11, and George W. Bush 12.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: You really stink if you're way behind Nixon, don't you? George Bush is in a lot of trouble, isn't he?
(LAUGHTER)
DONATELLI: No, I don't think so at all.
First of all, it's great that so many young people in your audience are for Ronald Reagan. And they were barely alive...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: I think that is -- that's a wonderful thing.
DONATELLI: They were barely alive when he was president.
But, look, as George W. Bush is concerned, he still is in the White House, only four years into his presidency. I agree that much still needs to be written about his presidential years. I think, though, that he's in excellent shape maybe to be one of our great presidents. It's just premature.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Ron, Ron Klain, I have a little trouble associating Bill Clinton and greatest president in the history of the country together. And I'm not sure -- I can't remember anything very good that he did. But what I...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: But what I -- but something -- something bad that he said kind of disqualifies him. And let's listen to the most famous quote that people remember Bill Clinton for.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM J. CLINTON, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: All you have got to say is, "I did not" and everybody knows what it is. That's a disqualifier, isn't it?
RON KLAIN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Look, obviously, even I, as a Clinton loyal and Clinton partisan, think that Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson are probably better presidents than Bill Clinton.
But I think what's outstanding about this list is it shows, notwithstanding how recent in the past that was and the controversy around that, Americans, Democrats, Republicans, even independents rate Bill Clinton very highly for the success he had as our president in terms of balancing the budget, bringing prosperity, bringing peace, bringing security, welfare reform.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
KLAIN: Bob, if you've forgotten that stuff, you've got...
NOVAK: Reducing taxes? I paid higher taxes with him.
KLAIN: Reducing crime, making this country a better place, making this country a safer place.
Bill Clinton had a tremendous record of achievement. It's no surprise that he does very, very well. And, as Paul says, I think the real news here is that our current president is three notches below -- is three notches below Richard Nixon on this list.
NOVAK: He just got reelected.
KLAIN: I mean, I'm sorry.
But you know what? The truth is, it's no surprise. I think, if you're the president of the United States and you try to undue the kind of respect around the world we had under President Kennedy, under the prosperity of Bill Clinton, under the Social Security system of FDR, it's no surprise. You're going to be far down on that list.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: And, in fact, Frank, I do think -- I do think the contrast between our current conservative president and your former boss Ronald Reagan, also a conservative president, serves Reagan well and serves Bush poorly.
Let me give you an example. One of the probably the greatest day of tragedy of the Reagan presidency was the day the Challenger blew up, live on national television. School children all across the country were watching it live. And I am sure you recall how President Reagan handled it. Let me show you a piece of videotape of Ronald Reagan that day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REAGAN: I want to say something to the schoolchildren of America who were watching the live coverage of the shuttle's takeoff. I know it's hard to understand, but, sometimes, painful things like this happen. It's all part of the process of exploration and discovery.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Now, obviously, I didn't agree with President Reagan's political agenda, but that is strength, courage, resolve, really what a president ought to be.
Let me contrast that with President George W. Bush on the great day of tragedy in his presidency on 9/11, when he, too, happened to be with schoolchildren.
Here's President Bush.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: Ladies and gentlemen, this is a difficult moment for America. I, unfortunately, will be going back to Washington after my remarks. Secretary Rod Paige and the lieutenant governor will take the podium and discuss education. I do want to thank the folks here at Booker Elementary School for their hospitality.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: He's weak. He's wobbly. He's stammering. What a difference.
DONATELLI: Well, what you didn't show there is the speech that President Bush gave about a week later.
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, it took him a week to get his breath. Thank goodness there were scriptwriters.
DONATELLI: It was a terrific speech. It was a terrific speech.
BEGALA: In about nine days. It took about nine day. He got his foot and he gave a very good -- he read a very good speech.
DONATELLI: One of the best speeches ever.
BEGALA: That other men wrote for him to the Congress.
DONATELLI: OK.
BEGALA: My question is, why, under fire, was Reagan so strong and steady and Bush so weak and wobbly?
DONATELLI: I think there are a number of similarities between President Reagan, who was my president, of course, and President Bush. Both of them faced a clear challenge. Both of them had clear goals.
BEGALA: And one wet his pants and the other stood strong.
(APPLAUSE)
DONATELLI: Both of them had clear goals. President Bush is doing a great job dealing with the war on terror. That's his great challenge. Reagan's great challenge was the fight against communism.
With all due respect to Ron, unlike President Clinton, both of them have boldness and fortitude. Clinton believed in triangulation, which meant a little from here, a little from there. And it's a muddle in the final analysis.
KLAIN: You know... DONATELLI: Both Reagan and Bush have clear, decisive leadership.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Ron, we used President Clinton's most famous words: "I did not have sex with that woman."
Let me give you the five most, six most famous words of Ronald Reagan. Let's just put them up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REAGAN: Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Now, that -- that's historic, isn't it? It isn't like having a little tax bill or a little something here? That's something we can remember and be proud of, isn't it?
KLAIN: Look, even as a partisan Democrat, I take nothing away from Ronald Reagan's leadership and his stalwartness against communism. He is, I think, should be on this list of one of the great presidents.
My point, though, is this. Bill Clinton also should also be on that list for leading this country at a very difficult time, achieving prosperity, getting us out of years of debt, including, let's face it, a lot of debt our friend Ronald Reagan built up on this country.
NOVAK: OK.
KLAIN: Balancing the budget, getting this country to grow through the 1990s and be strong in the next century.
NOVAK: We've got to take a...
KLAIN: And Clinton belongs on that list, too, for those reasons.
NOVAK: We have got to take a break.
And when we come back, we'll ask a real good question. We won't ask Paul, though. Is George W. Bush underrated?
And just ahead, the latest on why religious sites are being targeted in Iraq this weekend.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Judy Woodruff, reporting from Washington. Coming up at the top of the hour, a very bloody day in Iraq. Observers say it's an attempt to exploit religious tensions on the eve of a holiday.
Photos show a tunnel under construction in Iran. Is it evidence of a nuclear weapons program?
And Blockbuster says it abolished late fees. Now it is accused of fraud.
All those stories and much more just minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
BEGALA: Thank you, Judy. We look forward to your report at the top of the hour.
Meanwhile, here on CROSSFIRE, we're talking about former presidents and greatness. Twenty percent of Americans have told a new Gallup poll that Ronald Reagan was the greatest of America's 43 presidents.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Bill Clinton was close behind in second place, with 15 percent. But our current president, George W. Bush, didn't even make the top five. And among independents, he's a pathetic 12th, trailing Richard Nixon.
Our guests today, Republican strategist Frank Donatelli and Democratic strategist Ron Klain.
NOVAK: You know, Ron, I think Paul will use any occasion to attack our president, President George W. Bush.
BEGALA: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: But let's look -- let's look at him at his best, when America was staggering and it needed leadership, and he gave it. Let's listen to him on September 14, 2001.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: I can hear you. The rest of the world hears you. And the people and the people...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BUSH: And the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: That was a good performance, wasn't it?
KLAIN: Oh, I think -- I think -- I think that was an exceptional performance. I think his speech before a joint session of Congress was an exceptional performance.
It's what happened since then that has been the problem. And it's why he's so down on this list, so down on the list not only among Democrats, but among independents, 12th, 13th, wherever he is on this list, because of his performance as president. That was a great moment, but why don't we run the tape of him saying mission accomplished before 1,000 more Americans were killed in Iraq?
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: He never said anything about...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Never said it. Never said it. He never said that.
KLAIN: Why don't we run the tape of him sitting in front of a banner that the White House...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: He never said that.
KLAIN: OK?
(CROSSTALK)
KLAIN: Why don't we run the tape of him standing up there saying he wants to undue Social Security?
Look, the problem is...
NOVAK: He never said he's going to undue Social...
(CROSSTALK)
KLAIN: The problem is that President Bush has a record of failure.
NOVAK: He didn't say that.
KLAIN: And that's why it's no surprise he's so far down on this list.
NOVAK: That's how he got reelected. That's how he got reelected by 3.5 million votes. KLAIN: He's a good politician, a bad president.
BEGALA: Frank, your old boss Ronald Reagan, beloved particularly in Eastern Europe, former communist world. You can go there and see people who still revere Ronald Reagan. If you go to Asia, Africa, Latin America, you see Americans who revere Bill Clinton and John Kennedy, great Democratic presidents.
All around the world, George W. Bush is loathed. And let me show you the difference. This is what a real leader looks like leading the world.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Here's my old boss Bill Clinton helping to bring peace to the Middle East. He did more to bring peace to that troubled region than any American president, when he brought the Israeli prime minister, Rabin, the Palestinian Authority leader, Arafat, and got them to shake hands. No one even knew that they would do it until that moment.
And that was an image that went around the world. America never been more respected in the world than when Bill Clinton was working toward peace. How did we go slide so far so fast under George W. Bush, where now the whole world hates us?
DONATELLI: First of all, under Clinton and under Reagan, they had plenty of detractors. It's only revisionist history now to think they didn't.
But, I believe, Paul, the day will come when people all throughout the Middle East and especially Iraq will look to George W. Bush as their liberator, much as the East, the old Eastern Bloc looks at...
BEGALA: We will be greeted as liberators. It will just take a while.
DONATELLI: ... Ronald Reagan as their -- as his liberator.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Did I, did I, did I miss something or did Bill Clinton, did his last failed attempt to get peace result in the second intifada and all the bloodshed that we have had? Am I wrong? Did I miss something?
KLAIN: Well, I think what you might have missed, Bob, was when this president took his eye off the ball of the Middle East for the first year of his presidency, the situation got worse, that we're still digging out from that hole.
NOVAK: He didn't inherent the second intifada?
KLAIN: Bill Clinton, Bill Clinton, Bill Clinton brought peace to the Middle East. He brought peace to Northern Ireland. NOVAK: OK.
KLAIN: He brought peace all over this world because he stayed engage and he fought for peace.
NOVAK: Ron Klain, Frank Donatelli, thank you very much, gentlemen.
BEGALA: Thank you.
DONATELLI: Thank you, Paul.
NOVAK: Just ahead, Bill Clinton was hanging out with his Hollywood friends again last night. What else? We'll tell you why right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, speaking of former presidents, Bill Clinton and George H.W. Bush are beginning to act a little like the superhero former presidents in Robert Smigel's "Saturday Night Live" cartoons, without the naughty parts, of course. The dynamic duo is bound for Thailand on a goodwill mission to areas hit hard by December's South Asia tsunami.
And, last night, before taking off on this relief effort, Mr. Clinton was in Los Angeles to receive an award for his good works. Director Steven Spielberg presented the former president with the Ambassadors for Humanity Award. The event was hosted by actor Tom Cruise for the Shoah Foundation, which was established by Spielberg in 1994 with the goals of promoting tolerance, cultural understanding and mutual respect. So, congratulations, Mr. President.
NOVAK: Paul, do you think, on the way to Thailand, the old President Bush will ask Clinton why he told so many lies about him in 1992?
BEGALA: He told the truth about him and he gave him hell. And that's why Clinton won.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Bush had -- had not done a very good. And we got a new president.
From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak.
Join me tomorrow at 2:30 p.m. Eastern for "THE NOVAK ZONE." My guest will be the great actor and former Senator Fred Thompson.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
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