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CNN Crossfire
Justice System in Jeopardy?
Aired March 14, 2005 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak.
In the CROSSFIRE: Are judges and our justice system in jeopardy? Back in custody now, police say defendant Brian Nichols grabbed a gun and went on a courthouse rampage after a deputy removed his cuffs to let him change clothes for court. The victims include a judge, a court reporter, a sheriff's deputy and, later, a federal law enforcement officer.
What is the best way to provide justice for defendants and maintain security for the courthouse workers who could become their targets?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
They went back to work at the Fulton County Courthouse in Atlanta today, 72 hours after a defendant in a rape case allegedly grabbed a deputy's gun and killed three people. The suspect, Brian Nichols, is also accused of killing an Immigrations and Customs Enforcement agent before he surrendered Saturday.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Nichols was out of his handcuffs, so he could change into civilian clothes in court, and police say he overpowered a female deputy, took her gun, and began his shooting rampage.
Now, of course, there's no left or right, conservative or liberal debate on this issue. So, instead, we thought we would talk to a former prosecutor and a former -- current defense lawyer to get two perspectives on how this might have happened and how we might prevent a similar shooting spree in the future.
But, first, we will begin today as we always do, with the best political briefing in television, the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert." A new report by the FBI and Homeland Security says al Qaeda terrorists want to use aircraft as weapons. You think? Three and a half years after 9/11, our planes and helicopters are still not secure and our ports, our chemical plants, our borders, our refineries all are still vulnerable. The Bush administration, which shamelessly rode to reelection on film of flag-draped bodies being dragged out of the rubble at ground zero, is not doing everything it can do to protect America.
Now, why is that? Well, they'd rather cut taxes for the rich. They put $41 billion into homeland security. Big whoop. They put $1 trillion dollars into the tax cuts for the rich. What, are they crazy? Do they think that, when we're all killed by terrorists, we'll somehow be happy that our children won't have to pay taxes on their inheritance?
NOVAK: You know, you are tenacious and dogged, if nothing else, Paul. You're still running the 2004 campaign, which -- I'll give you a scoop -- was won by George W. Bush.
That little piece of film you saw, there was only a few seconds of any bodies shown. Nobody could even notice with a naked eye. And I do believe it is stretching things to say that the tax cuts were responsible for al Qaeda. That is really stupid.
BEGALA: What I'm saying is, the first obligation of the government is to protect our country. Second obligation is to cut taxes.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: If there is some money left over, cut taxes, but protect us first. And they're not doing their job.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Howard Dean -- Howard Dean may be a great populist, but that does not mean he thinks what he did as governor of Vermont was the people's business.
The Vermont Supreme Court today heard arguments appealing a court ruling forcing open dozens of boxes of documents that Governor Dean has sealed. Liberals did not mind Dr. Dean's hypocrisy when he was running for president. This suit was brought by Thomas Fitton, president of a conservative organization, Judicial Watch , who said -- quote -- "Dean's political aspirations and his desire to prevent anything from ruining them are not sound arguments for secreting such an enormous quantity of government documents from the public" -- end quote.
How secret would he be -- will he be heading the Democratic Party today?
BEGALA: Now, this is painful for me. Judicial Watch often focuses on very frivolous lawsuits, and they file abusive lawsuits. And I like Governor Dean and support him. But this time, I think you're right, they're right and Dean is wrong, that he should open these records. I said so when he was a candidate. Governor Bush of Texas tried to hide his records as well. I thought it was wrong when Bush tried it. I think it's wrong when Governor Dean tries it. So I think you're right. We need more open government, so let's open up those files.
NOVAK: I'm not in the government and they can even look at my records, if they want.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: That would be...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: I'm just kidding, just kidding.
BEGALA: OK. Actually, I'd like to do -- no, but I think it's a valid point...
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: .. that people who are in the government ought to make their government records open to everybody.
Well, the stench surrounding Tom DeLay, the corrupt House Republican leader, grows worse each day. "TIME" magazine and "The Washington Post" today report that Delay's fellow Republicans are getting a little nervous. One of DeLay's luxury overseas junkets was paid for, indirectly, by gambling interests, including Indian tribes represented by a controversial lobbyist with close ties to DeLay.
The notion of the Republican leader jetting across the ocean courtesy of gambling interests probably doesn't sit well with religious conservatives. Focus on the Family, the conservative religious group founded by James Dobson, calls gambling morally bankrupt. Yet Dobson is strangely silent at DeLay's embrace by gambling interests.
Morally bankrupt, indeed, Mr. Dobson. DeLay has also potentially violated House rules by accepting a trip to South Korea from a registered foreign agent. In the 2006 elections, Republican congressmen are certain to be asked why they voted to be led by a morally bankrupt man like Tom DeLay.
NOVAK: Boy, you have made it clear that all of this is a coolly calculated plot to destroy Tom DeLay and it has nothing to do with morality. It has a lot to do with politics, because you can't forgive him for redistricting in Texas and a legitimate fair basis in getting rid of the Democratic gerrymander.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Well, we can debate that. We'll have lots of shows about Tom DeLay. NOVAK: She is the hottest political article in Washington, eclipsing even Hillary Rodham Clinton. That is Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. She may clear her intent on "Meet the Press" yesterday when Tim Russert pressed her. In fact, she sounded like the no-man on the television commercial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "MEET THE PRESS")
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: I don't want to run for president of the United States.
TIM RUSSERT, HOST: I will not run?
RICE: I do not intend to run for -- no, I will not run for president of the United States. How is that? I don't know how many different ways to say no in this town.
RUSSERT: Period. Period.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: I believe her, but it's the nation's loss. She showed up for last Saturday night's Gridiron Club Dinner in Washington wearing a spectacular red dress. I predict no Republican prospect will enter the '08 campaign dressed that way.
BEGALA: She ought to wear a scarlet letter of F. for fibber, fabricator.
NOVAK: Oh.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Teller of falsehoods. She is not a woman who tells the truth, Bob. She misled this country into that war. She's unworthy of the White House. She's unworthy of the State Department. She should tell the truth. I hope she's telling the truth she won't run, but I don't believe anything she says. When her lips move, that's when she's telling a falsehood.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You're making another political mistake. She is a very popular person. Get off of her. Attack Tom DeLay, but don't attack Condoleezza Rice. People are proud of her. And they like her. And you look bad when you attack her.
(BELL RINGING)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: She should tell the truth.
NOVAK: What can be done to make sure America's judges in the courthouses where they serve are safe and secure? Friday's rampage in an Atlanta courthouse has renewed the debate. Next, we'll ask two of America's premier attorneys what they think.
And, later, being president means, sometimes, you have to serve as entertainer in chief. We'll share some of President Bush's after- dinner material ahead on CROSSFIRE.
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to CROSSFIRE at the George Washington University, call 202-994-8CNN or visit our Web site. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back.
When former college linebacker Brian Nichols was on his way to court in Atlanta on Friday, he was being guarded by a single female deputy, a petite grandmother at that, even though he had already been accused of trying to bring weapons into court. So, do authorities take enough precautions in America's courthouses?
Today in our broadcast back here in Washington, former U.S. attorney Joe diGenova and, joining us from New York, criminal defense attorney Ron Kuby.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Gentlemen, good to see you.
JOE DIGENOVA, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Good to be here.
NOVAK: Mr. Kuby, Mr. Kuby, why not just have all prisoners accused of violent crimes shackled when they're being taken from one place to another in a courthouse?
RON KUBY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Usually, that's the case when you're being transported from one place to another. And that was the case here, too.
What had happened was, they brought him back. This single female deputy brought him back to a holding cell, where he was going to change clothes. Usually, the protocol is, if you have a single armed deputy, that person is never in contact with an unhandcuffed prisoner. So, instead of putting him in the cell, locking the door and having him stick his hands out from behind the bars, where you uncuff him, he changes into clothes, and you repeat the process to bring him out, apparently, the security cameras showed that she uncuffed one hand with the jail door still open.
And he was able to overpower her and seize her gun. And we know the rest. But, usually, they are chained and shackled from going from point A to point B.
NOVAK: From what you know of this situation, would you say that the protocol was violated or the protocol was inadequate? KUBY: Well, I don't know what the protocol was, but what was done was grossly inadequate and it wouldn't happen to most courthouses around the country. Here in New York City, you never have a single unarmed deputy in charge of an unhandcuffed prisoner at any point in the transportation process, and especially not one who tried to bring a weapon into court, had martial arts experience. He could have taken her at any point. He was waiting for time to do it.
It happened to be when he was changing his clothes, but it could have happened when he was in the bathroom or some other time. Just a total disaster.
BEGALA: It's amazing.
Joe, first, good to see you again.
DIGENOVA: Good to see you, Paul.
BEGALA: Under tragic circumstances, but thank you for making yourself available.
DIGENOVA: Sure.
BEGALA: In the federal system, are all violent defendants shackled?
DIGENOVA: They are always shackled, both hands and feet, when they are being moved from any facility or within any facility. What...
BEGALA: Including a courtroom? Because there was a concern. In this very case, the judge who was murdered, tragically, in fact had been concerned about a prejudicial effect of this potential violent man...
DIGENOVA: Yes.
BEGALA: .,.. being shackled in his courtroom.
DIGENOVA: It is -- it is -- it is within the sound discretion of a judge to require that a person be shackled in court.
The issue then arises, what about when they're in front of a jury? And will that prejudice the jury? The judge still has it within his or her discretion to maintain the shackles. They try to cover them up with clothing and other things. Interestingly enough, there's a case pending in the Supreme Court right -- right now out of Missouri, Deck (ph) vs. Missouri -- and this is really fascinating -- where the question of whether or not a prisoner could be shackled in a Missouri courtroom during trial.
During the oral argument, six of the nine justices were very, very dismissive of the safety concerns of the judge in the Missouri case.
BEGALA: They were more concerned about the prejudicial effects? DIGENOVA: Yes.
BEGALA: And making the guy look guilty.
DIGENOVA: Yes. And it is going to be very interesting to see how that case was argued on -- at the beginning of the term. It has not been decided yet.
They may decide that they are not going to decide that case this term. But let me just tell you something. What happened in Atlanta was not only a breakdown of the system. That is a troubled sheriff's department. They've had problems in Atlanta with the sheriff's department. They had a former FBI director running the department for a while. That woman was alone with that prisoner under these circumstances is absolutely outrageous.
It never should have happened. They would have -- if they had followed proper protocol, there would be no dead people in this incident in Atlanta today.
NOVAK: Mr. Kuby, you're a defense attorney. What do you think of the argument that the jury is -- it's prejudicial if the jury sees a shackled prisoner?
KUBY: Well, it's an argument that a bunch of unelected judges made back in 1660, when the judges of Old Bailey resolved that prisoners should have their irons removed when they were before the bar, even when accused of heinous crimes.
It's been a part of our judicial lifeblood for 345 years, with remarkably few incidents. And, obviously, to see a defendant sitting there in the dock, clanking around in chains and shackles and handcuffs, obviously has a prejudicial effect. That's why it's not done. But that issue has nothing to do with the tragedy in Atlanta.
NOVAK: I want to read you a quote from the senior superior court judge in Atlanta, Philip Etheridge. And I'm sure you will agree with it, but I am going to read it anyway. "You can't be lackadaisical when it comes to security. You have to get it right each time, because it only takes one time. There is no way that anyone could have thought Cynthia Hall would have been able to handle a situation with Brian Nichols, no bloody way."
Is there any -- anything you disagree with in that?
KUBY: Not -- not -- not a single word. It was just a tragedy waiting to happen.
Nichols chose that opportunity to overpower her. But any other opportunity he had, he would have used. She was no match for him physically. There wasn't another deputy present. She had a gun, which she never should of had if she was by herself. And it was just a total breakdown in security 101. Wouldn't happen in most places and probably won't happen again down there.
BEGALA: Well, now, Joe, on the other side of it, aren't shackles sometimes abused? Let me show you some footage, rather famous footage, from a case. This is a woman, not a man, not accused of a violent crime, not accused of any crime. This is Susan McDougal, who simply refused, in her words, to tell lies for Ken Starr. She didn't want to testify before Ken Starr's grand jury looking into Bill Clinton's sex life.
For this, Ken Starr throws her in shackles in front of God and everyone.
DIGENOVA: Actually...
BEGALA: Now, that is an abuse, isn't it? This woman was no threat to anyone.
DIGENOVA: No. No. That's not...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: She was a threat?
DIGENOVA: No. That's not. Actually, that is required by Federal Bureau Prisons policy, not -- not by Ken Starr. What happens is, any time you transport a prisoner, for the very reason of what happened in Atlanta, no matter what...
(CROSSTALK)
DIGENOVA: No matter what the...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: She wasn't accused of a violent crime, Joe. She wasn't accused of any crime.
DIGENOVA: No matter what...
BEGALA: She just didn't want to testify for Ken Starr, which was I think wise.
DIGENOVA: No matter what the prisoner is charged with, when they are transported, they must be handcuffed and they must have the leg irons to prevent running and to prevent assaults on law enforcement officers. It has nothing to do with the nature of the crime.
Now, once somebody is inside of a courthouse, the decision about how to treat them when you're transporting them from one place to another is dominated totally by security and by the nature of the individual and the nature of the crime that they're charged with. Once they're outside of a building, everybody is in handcuffs and leg irons, everybody.
BEGALA: All right, Joe, hang on just a second .
And, Ron Kuby keep your seat.
We're going to come back in just a moment. When we return, we'll have more from our guests on securing America's courthouses. Plus, a former hostage tells her story. Wolf Blitzer will have the latest on that right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Coming up at the top of the hour, the aftermath of the Atlanta courthouse shootings. We'll hear from the former hostage who told police where to find Brian Nichols.
Another anti-Syria rally in Lebanon, this one the biggest one so far.
And 3 1/2 years after the 9/11 attacks, a new federal government reports says aviation remains a likely terrorist target here in the United States.
All those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: Brian Nichols could face a host of charges for the crimes he's accused of committing before giving up to the police. Are the opportunities for jailbreaks too tempting because of lax security?
Still in the CROSSFIRE, from New York, criminal defense attorney Ron Kuby and, here in Washington, former U.S. attorney Joe diGenova.
BEGALA: Joe, during the commercial break, you were telling me the cell in which the deputy was overpowered was under video surveillance?
DIGENOVA: Yes. And, in fact, almost all the areas were. And the assault on her was not seen because the person who was supposed to be sitting at the monitor watching it was not there.
I understand from later -- latest reports that two people were not at their monitors watching this. If they had just been at their monitors, they certainly wouldn't have been able to prevent the assault on her, but they would have been able to warn other people in the courthouse and cut him off.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Sealed the area and protect the judge and the court reporter.
DIGENOVA: It's really -- what happened down there was a complete breakdown in the tradecraft of courthouse security.
NOVAK: Ron Kuby, what do you think of having a lockbox in a courtroom or in the courthouse, where all weapons of all the people are locked up, so this sort of thing can't happen?
KUBY: Well, you know, in New York, where we have thousands of incredibly dangerous prisoners every day, there is a security protocol that is followed and that it works as long as it's followed.
The holding cells are adjacent to the courtrooms themselves. So, the prisoner is brought from the holding cell into the courtroom. He is still in handcuffs. He's told to sit down. The cuffs are removed in the presence of armed court security officers, two, three, sometimes four of them, depending on the level of danger. And there are remarkably few incidents and no incidents like this one, with somebody seizing a firearm, simply because of the proximity of many people.
That seems to work very, very well. It's hard to take this particular tragedy, where so many people screwed up so badly, and to metamorphose it into a larger issue about courthouse security, just because what happened in Atlanta was so unique and there were so many different points at which it could have been stopped and it should have been stopped.
BEGALA: Well, Joe, let me ask you about guns in the -- in the courthouse. As a -- as a government official, I've taken tours of prisons, fortunately, not yet ever had to serve any time there, but there are no guns allowed. The guards don't have guns. There are -- as Bob suggested, there is a room. It's locked away in case, God forbid, there is a riot.
But "The Atlanta Constitution" wrote about this today. And here's what they say: "To prevent a defendant from grabbing a weapon, many jurisdictions don't allow law enforcement officials to take guns into court, although some jurisdictions outfit inmates with electrified belts that can deliver disabling shock, which is a probably a good idea, for controlling violence-prone defendants."
Should they have just banned guns from that courtroom, that courthouse building?
DIGENOVA: I certainly wouldn't have any problem with that. It's very difficult to get a weapon into a courthouse, as you certainly can't get a weapon into a federal courthouse. You would have never seen an incident like this in a federal courthouse. I wouldn't be against banning all weapons and having even the security officers in the courtroom...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: But the marshals -- I'm sorry to interrupt you -- but the marshals accompanying federal prisoners are not armed, the way that this deputy in Atlanta was armed?
DIGENOVA: Sometimes, they are. They usually are armed.
But the prisoners are shackled in such a way that they cannot move and grab a weapon. It just doesn't happen in the federal system because of the way people are moved. But the federal system works very well with people being armed for the very reason that Ron gave. In New York, in the state court system, they have a protocol that's almost identical to what the U.S. Marshals use.
What happened in Atlanta would never have happened in a federal courthouse. It could not happen because...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: So this is -- this will have to be the last word. We're almost out of time. So this is an aberration? This is not part of a wider pattern and people should not overreact...
(CROSSTALK)
DIGENOVA: Absolutely. This was -- this was the worst set of all the circumstances happening at the same time in the same place.
NOVAK: That will have to be the last word.
DIGENOVA: Thank you very much.
NOVAK: Joe diGenova, thank you very much.
DIGENOVA: Thank you. Thank you.
NOVAK: Ron Kuby in New York, thank you so much.
DIGENOVA: Thanks, guys.
NOVAK: Comedy and politics, sometimes, it's a pretty natural mix. We'll share one of President Bush's best lines from the weekend's Gridiron Club Dinner just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: The 120th Gridiron Club Dinner was held in Washington Saturday night. Wearing white ties and tails, journalists poke fun at the powerful. But presidents, who are often the targets of humor at the annual dinner, go out for a few laughs, too.
President Bush offered his hopes for a full recovery from surgery by former President Clinton. Mr. Bush said: "Clinton woke up after the operation surrounded by his loved ones, Hillary, Chelsea and my father."
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Yes, Clinton and the first President Bush have become soul mates. And nothing ever surprises in politics.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: That was gracious and witty.
The president singed a little when he said he had a plan to remove Korean dictator Kim Jong Il from office, first pressure Kim to call an election and then, second, send John Kerry's adviser Bob Shrum to run the campaign for Kim Jong Il.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: That was -- that was a little rough, but, you know, you get to do that when you win. So, congratulations, Mr. President.
From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
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Aired March 14, 2005 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak.
In the CROSSFIRE: Are judges and our justice system in jeopardy? Back in custody now, police say defendant Brian Nichols grabbed a gun and went on a courthouse rampage after a deputy removed his cuffs to let him change clothes for court. The victims include a judge, a court reporter, a sheriff's deputy and, later, a federal law enforcement officer.
What is the best way to provide justice for defendants and maintain security for the courthouse workers who could become their targets?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
They went back to work at the Fulton County Courthouse in Atlanta today, 72 hours after a defendant in a rape case allegedly grabbed a deputy's gun and killed three people. The suspect, Brian Nichols, is also accused of killing an Immigrations and Customs Enforcement agent before he surrendered Saturday.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Nichols was out of his handcuffs, so he could change into civilian clothes in court, and police say he overpowered a female deputy, took her gun, and began his shooting rampage.
Now, of course, there's no left or right, conservative or liberal debate on this issue. So, instead, we thought we would talk to a former prosecutor and a former -- current defense lawyer to get two perspectives on how this might have happened and how we might prevent a similar shooting spree in the future.
But, first, we will begin today as we always do, with the best political briefing in television, the CROSSFIRE "Political Alert." A new report by the FBI and Homeland Security says al Qaeda terrorists want to use aircraft as weapons. You think? Three and a half years after 9/11, our planes and helicopters are still not secure and our ports, our chemical plants, our borders, our refineries all are still vulnerable. The Bush administration, which shamelessly rode to reelection on film of flag-draped bodies being dragged out of the rubble at ground zero, is not doing everything it can do to protect America.
Now, why is that? Well, they'd rather cut taxes for the rich. They put $41 billion into homeland security. Big whoop. They put $1 trillion dollars into the tax cuts for the rich. What, are they crazy? Do they think that, when we're all killed by terrorists, we'll somehow be happy that our children won't have to pay taxes on their inheritance?
NOVAK: You know, you are tenacious and dogged, if nothing else, Paul. You're still running the 2004 campaign, which -- I'll give you a scoop -- was won by George W. Bush.
That little piece of film you saw, there was only a few seconds of any bodies shown. Nobody could even notice with a naked eye. And I do believe it is stretching things to say that the tax cuts were responsible for al Qaeda. That is really stupid.
BEGALA: What I'm saying is, the first obligation of the government is to protect our country. Second obligation is to cut taxes.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: If there is some money left over, cut taxes, but protect us first. And they're not doing their job.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Howard Dean -- Howard Dean may be a great populist, but that does not mean he thinks what he did as governor of Vermont was the people's business.
The Vermont Supreme Court today heard arguments appealing a court ruling forcing open dozens of boxes of documents that Governor Dean has sealed. Liberals did not mind Dr. Dean's hypocrisy when he was running for president. This suit was brought by Thomas Fitton, president of a conservative organization, Judicial Watch , who said -- quote -- "Dean's political aspirations and his desire to prevent anything from ruining them are not sound arguments for secreting such an enormous quantity of government documents from the public" -- end quote.
How secret would he be -- will he be heading the Democratic Party today?
BEGALA: Now, this is painful for me. Judicial Watch often focuses on very frivolous lawsuits, and they file abusive lawsuits. And I like Governor Dean and support him. But this time, I think you're right, they're right and Dean is wrong, that he should open these records. I said so when he was a candidate. Governor Bush of Texas tried to hide his records as well. I thought it was wrong when Bush tried it. I think it's wrong when Governor Dean tries it. So I think you're right. We need more open government, so let's open up those files.
NOVAK: I'm not in the government and they can even look at my records, if they want.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: That would be...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: I'm just kidding, just kidding.
BEGALA: OK. Actually, I'd like to do -- no, but I think it's a valid point...
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: .. that people who are in the government ought to make their government records open to everybody.
Well, the stench surrounding Tom DeLay, the corrupt House Republican leader, grows worse each day. "TIME" magazine and "The Washington Post" today report that Delay's fellow Republicans are getting a little nervous. One of DeLay's luxury overseas junkets was paid for, indirectly, by gambling interests, including Indian tribes represented by a controversial lobbyist with close ties to DeLay.
The notion of the Republican leader jetting across the ocean courtesy of gambling interests probably doesn't sit well with religious conservatives. Focus on the Family, the conservative religious group founded by James Dobson, calls gambling morally bankrupt. Yet Dobson is strangely silent at DeLay's embrace by gambling interests.
Morally bankrupt, indeed, Mr. Dobson. DeLay has also potentially violated House rules by accepting a trip to South Korea from a registered foreign agent. In the 2006 elections, Republican congressmen are certain to be asked why they voted to be led by a morally bankrupt man like Tom DeLay.
NOVAK: Boy, you have made it clear that all of this is a coolly calculated plot to destroy Tom DeLay and it has nothing to do with morality. It has a lot to do with politics, because you can't forgive him for redistricting in Texas and a legitimate fair basis in getting rid of the Democratic gerrymander.
(BELL RINGING)
BEGALA: Well, we can debate that. We'll have lots of shows about Tom DeLay. NOVAK: She is the hottest political article in Washington, eclipsing even Hillary Rodham Clinton. That is Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. She may clear her intent on "Meet the Press" yesterday when Tim Russert pressed her. In fact, she sounded like the no-man on the television commercial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "MEET THE PRESS")
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: I don't want to run for president of the United States.
TIM RUSSERT, HOST: I will not run?
RICE: I do not intend to run for -- no, I will not run for president of the United States. How is that? I don't know how many different ways to say no in this town.
RUSSERT: Period. Period.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: I believe her, but it's the nation's loss. She showed up for last Saturday night's Gridiron Club Dinner in Washington wearing a spectacular red dress. I predict no Republican prospect will enter the '08 campaign dressed that way.
BEGALA: She ought to wear a scarlet letter of F. for fibber, fabricator.
NOVAK: Oh.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Teller of falsehoods. She is not a woman who tells the truth, Bob. She misled this country into that war. She's unworthy of the White House. She's unworthy of the State Department. She should tell the truth. I hope she's telling the truth she won't run, but I don't believe anything she says. When her lips move, that's when she's telling a falsehood.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: You're making another political mistake. She is a very popular person. Get off of her. Attack Tom DeLay, but don't attack Condoleezza Rice. People are proud of her. And they like her. And you look bad when you attack her.
(BELL RINGING)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: She should tell the truth.
NOVAK: What can be done to make sure America's judges in the courthouses where they serve are safe and secure? Friday's rampage in an Atlanta courthouse has renewed the debate. Next, we'll ask two of America's premier attorneys what they think.
And, later, being president means, sometimes, you have to serve as entertainer in chief. We'll share some of President Bush's after- dinner material ahead on CROSSFIRE.
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to CROSSFIRE at the George Washington University, call 202-994-8CNN or visit our Web site. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
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BEGALA: Welcome back.
When former college linebacker Brian Nichols was on his way to court in Atlanta on Friday, he was being guarded by a single female deputy, a petite grandmother at that, even though he had already been accused of trying to bring weapons into court. So, do authorities take enough precautions in America's courthouses?
Today in our broadcast back here in Washington, former U.S. attorney Joe diGenova and, joining us from New York, criminal defense attorney Ron Kuby.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Gentlemen, good to see you.
JOE DIGENOVA, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Good to be here.
NOVAK: Mr. Kuby, Mr. Kuby, why not just have all prisoners accused of violent crimes shackled when they're being taken from one place to another in a courthouse?
RON KUBY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Usually, that's the case when you're being transported from one place to another. And that was the case here, too.
What had happened was, they brought him back. This single female deputy brought him back to a holding cell, where he was going to change clothes. Usually, the protocol is, if you have a single armed deputy, that person is never in contact with an unhandcuffed prisoner. So, instead of putting him in the cell, locking the door and having him stick his hands out from behind the bars, where you uncuff him, he changes into clothes, and you repeat the process to bring him out, apparently, the security cameras showed that she uncuffed one hand with the jail door still open.
And he was able to overpower her and seize her gun. And we know the rest. But, usually, they are chained and shackled from going from point A to point B.
NOVAK: From what you know of this situation, would you say that the protocol was violated or the protocol was inadequate? KUBY: Well, I don't know what the protocol was, but what was done was grossly inadequate and it wouldn't happen to most courthouses around the country. Here in New York City, you never have a single unarmed deputy in charge of an unhandcuffed prisoner at any point in the transportation process, and especially not one who tried to bring a weapon into court, had martial arts experience. He could have taken her at any point. He was waiting for time to do it.
It happened to be when he was changing his clothes, but it could have happened when he was in the bathroom or some other time. Just a total disaster.
BEGALA: It's amazing.
Joe, first, good to see you again.
DIGENOVA: Good to see you, Paul.
BEGALA: Under tragic circumstances, but thank you for making yourself available.
DIGENOVA: Sure.
BEGALA: In the federal system, are all violent defendants shackled?
DIGENOVA: They are always shackled, both hands and feet, when they are being moved from any facility or within any facility. What...
BEGALA: Including a courtroom? Because there was a concern. In this very case, the judge who was murdered, tragically, in fact had been concerned about a prejudicial effect of this potential violent man...
DIGENOVA: Yes.
BEGALA: .,.. being shackled in his courtroom.
DIGENOVA: It is -- it is -- it is within the sound discretion of a judge to require that a person be shackled in court.
The issue then arises, what about when they're in front of a jury? And will that prejudice the jury? The judge still has it within his or her discretion to maintain the shackles. They try to cover them up with clothing and other things. Interestingly enough, there's a case pending in the Supreme Court right -- right now out of Missouri, Deck (ph) vs. Missouri -- and this is really fascinating -- where the question of whether or not a prisoner could be shackled in a Missouri courtroom during trial.
During the oral argument, six of the nine justices were very, very dismissive of the safety concerns of the judge in the Missouri case.
BEGALA: They were more concerned about the prejudicial effects? DIGENOVA: Yes.
BEGALA: And making the guy look guilty.
DIGENOVA: Yes. And it is going to be very interesting to see how that case was argued on -- at the beginning of the term. It has not been decided yet.
They may decide that they are not going to decide that case this term. But let me just tell you something. What happened in Atlanta was not only a breakdown of the system. That is a troubled sheriff's department. They've had problems in Atlanta with the sheriff's department. They had a former FBI director running the department for a while. That woman was alone with that prisoner under these circumstances is absolutely outrageous.
It never should have happened. They would have -- if they had followed proper protocol, there would be no dead people in this incident in Atlanta today.
NOVAK: Mr. Kuby, you're a defense attorney. What do you think of the argument that the jury is -- it's prejudicial if the jury sees a shackled prisoner?
KUBY: Well, it's an argument that a bunch of unelected judges made back in 1660, when the judges of Old Bailey resolved that prisoners should have their irons removed when they were before the bar, even when accused of heinous crimes.
It's been a part of our judicial lifeblood for 345 years, with remarkably few incidents. And, obviously, to see a defendant sitting there in the dock, clanking around in chains and shackles and handcuffs, obviously has a prejudicial effect. That's why it's not done. But that issue has nothing to do with the tragedy in Atlanta.
NOVAK: I want to read you a quote from the senior superior court judge in Atlanta, Philip Etheridge. And I'm sure you will agree with it, but I am going to read it anyway. "You can't be lackadaisical when it comes to security. You have to get it right each time, because it only takes one time. There is no way that anyone could have thought Cynthia Hall would have been able to handle a situation with Brian Nichols, no bloody way."
Is there any -- anything you disagree with in that?
KUBY: Not -- not -- not a single word. It was just a tragedy waiting to happen.
Nichols chose that opportunity to overpower her. But any other opportunity he had, he would have used. She was no match for him physically. There wasn't another deputy present. She had a gun, which she never should of had if she was by herself. And it was just a total breakdown in security 101. Wouldn't happen in most places and probably won't happen again down there.
BEGALA: Well, now, Joe, on the other side of it, aren't shackles sometimes abused? Let me show you some footage, rather famous footage, from a case. This is a woman, not a man, not accused of a violent crime, not accused of any crime. This is Susan McDougal, who simply refused, in her words, to tell lies for Ken Starr. She didn't want to testify before Ken Starr's grand jury looking into Bill Clinton's sex life.
For this, Ken Starr throws her in shackles in front of God and everyone.
DIGENOVA: Actually...
BEGALA: Now, that is an abuse, isn't it? This woman was no threat to anyone.
DIGENOVA: No. No. That's not...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: She was a threat?
DIGENOVA: No. That's not. Actually, that is required by Federal Bureau Prisons policy, not -- not by Ken Starr. What happens is, any time you transport a prisoner, for the very reason of what happened in Atlanta, no matter what...
(CROSSTALK)
DIGENOVA: No matter what the...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: She wasn't accused of a violent crime, Joe. She wasn't accused of any crime.
DIGENOVA: No matter what...
BEGALA: She just didn't want to testify for Ken Starr, which was I think wise.
DIGENOVA: No matter what the prisoner is charged with, when they are transported, they must be handcuffed and they must have the leg irons to prevent running and to prevent assaults on law enforcement officers. It has nothing to do with the nature of the crime.
Now, once somebody is inside of a courthouse, the decision about how to treat them when you're transporting them from one place to another is dominated totally by security and by the nature of the individual and the nature of the crime that they're charged with. Once they're outside of a building, everybody is in handcuffs and leg irons, everybody.
BEGALA: All right, Joe, hang on just a second .
And, Ron Kuby keep your seat.
We're going to come back in just a moment. When we return, we'll have more from our guests on securing America's courthouses. Plus, a former hostage tells her story. Wolf Blitzer will have the latest on that right after the break.
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WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Coming up at the top of the hour, the aftermath of the Atlanta courthouse shootings. We'll hear from the former hostage who told police where to find Brian Nichols.
Another anti-Syria rally in Lebanon, this one the biggest one so far.
And 3 1/2 years after the 9/11 attacks, a new federal government reports says aviation remains a likely terrorist target here in the United States.
All those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: Brian Nichols could face a host of charges for the crimes he's accused of committing before giving up to the police. Are the opportunities for jailbreaks too tempting because of lax security?
Still in the CROSSFIRE, from New York, criminal defense attorney Ron Kuby and, here in Washington, former U.S. attorney Joe diGenova.
BEGALA: Joe, during the commercial break, you were telling me the cell in which the deputy was overpowered was under video surveillance?
DIGENOVA: Yes. And, in fact, almost all the areas were. And the assault on her was not seen because the person who was supposed to be sitting at the monitor watching it was not there.
I understand from later -- latest reports that two people were not at their monitors watching this. If they had just been at their monitors, they certainly wouldn't have been able to prevent the assault on her, but they would have been able to warn other people in the courthouse and cut him off.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Sealed the area and protect the judge and the court reporter.
DIGENOVA: It's really -- what happened down there was a complete breakdown in the tradecraft of courthouse security.
NOVAK: Ron Kuby, what do you think of having a lockbox in a courtroom or in the courthouse, where all weapons of all the people are locked up, so this sort of thing can't happen?
KUBY: Well, you know, in New York, where we have thousands of incredibly dangerous prisoners every day, there is a security protocol that is followed and that it works as long as it's followed.
The holding cells are adjacent to the courtrooms themselves. So, the prisoner is brought from the holding cell into the courtroom. He is still in handcuffs. He's told to sit down. The cuffs are removed in the presence of armed court security officers, two, three, sometimes four of them, depending on the level of danger. And there are remarkably few incidents and no incidents like this one, with somebody seizing a firearm, simply because of the proximity of many people.
That seems to work very, very well. It's hard to take this particular tragedy, where so many people screwed up so badly, and to metamorphose it into a larger issue about courthouse security, just because what happened in Atlanta was so unique and there were so many different points at which it could have been stopped and it should have been stopped.
BEGALA: Well, Joe, let me ask you about guns in the -- in the courthouse. As a -- as a government official, I've taken tours of prisons, fortunately, not yet ever had to serve any time there, but there are no guns allowed. The guards don't have guns. There are -- as Bob suggested, there is a room. It's locked away in case, God forbid, there is a riot.
But "The Atlanta Constitution" wrote about this today. And here's what they say: "To prevent a defendant from grabbing a weapon, many jurisdictions don't allow law enforcement officials to take guns into court, although some jurisdictions outfit inmates with electrified belts that can deliver disabling shock, which is a probably a good idea, for controlling violence-prone defendants."
Should they have just banned guns from that courtroom, that courthouse building?
DIGENOVA: I certainly wouldn't have any problem with that. It's very difficult to get a weapon into a courthouse, as you certainly can't get a weapon into a federal courthouse. You would have never seen an incident like this in a federal courthouse. I wouldn't be against banning all weapons and having even the security officers in the courtroom...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: But the marshals -- I'm sorry to interrupt you -- but the marshals accompanying federal prisoners are not armed, the way that this deputy in Atlanta was armed?
DIGENOVA: Sometimes, they are. They usually are armed.
But the prisoners are shackled in such a way that they cannot move and grab a weapon. It just doesn't happen in the federal system because of the way people are moved. But the federal system works very well with people being armed for the very reason that Ron gave. In New York, in the state court system, they have a protocol that's almost identical to what the U.S. Marshals use.
What happened in Atlanta would never have happened in a federal courthouse. It could not happen because...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: So this is -- this will have to be the last word. We're almost out of time. So this is an aberration? This is not part of a wider pattern and people should not overreact...
(CROSSTALK)
DIGENOVA: Absolutely. This was -- this was the worst set of all the circumstances happening at the same time in the same place.
NOVAK: That will have to be the last word.
DIGENOVA: Thank you very much.
NOVAK: Joe diGenova, thank you very much.
DIGENOVA: Thank you. Thank you.
NOVAK: Ron Kuby in New York, thank you so much.
DIGENOVA: Thanks, guys.
NOVAK: Comedy and politics, sometimes, it's a pretty natural mix. We'll share one of President Bush's best lines from the weekend's Gridiron Club Dinner just ahead.
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NOVAK: The 120th Gridiron Club Dinner was held in Washington Saturday night. Wearing white ties and tails, journalists poke fun at the powerful. But presidents, who are often the targets of humor at the annual dinner, go out for a few laughs, too.
President Bush offered his hopes for a full recovery from surgery by former President Clinton. Mr. Bush said: "Clinton woke up after the operation surrounded by his loved ones, Hillary, Chelsea and my father."
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: Yes, Clinton and the first President Bush have become soul mates. And nothing ever surprises in politics.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: That was gracious and witty.
The president singed a little when he said he had a plan to remove Korean dictator Kim Jong Il from office, first pressure Kim to call an election and then, second, send John Kerry's adviser Bob Shrum to run the campaign for Kim Jong Il.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: That was -- that was a little rough, but, you know, you get to do that when you win. So, congratulations, Mr. President.
From the left, I am Paul Begala. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
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