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CNN Crossfire
Political Fallout From Schiavo Case
Aired March 24, 2005 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, the Reverend Al Sharpton; on the right, Robert Novak.
In the CROSSFIRE:
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The United States Supreme Court has denied the motion by the Schindlers to reinsert the feeding tube.
ANNOUNCER: Terri Schiavo's family has fought to keep her alive in the courts of law and in the court of public opinion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're in shock. They can't believe this happening. This is a very significant blow. And Terri's life hangs in the balance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's time for this activity to stop as we approach this Easter weekend and that Mrs. Schiavo be able to die in peace.
ANNOUNCER: How long will the political fight over Terri Schiavo last? And will there be a political price to pay for those who jump into the middle of this issue in a very public way?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, the Reverend Al Sharpton and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Options for the parents of Terri Schiavo are almost gone. She has had no food or water since her feeding tube was removed last Friday. And efforts to have it reinserted were rejected today by the Supreme Court and again by the Florida courts. There's at least one more hearing scheduled in a Tampa federal court at 6:00 p.m., a last- ditch appeal by Schiavo's parents emergency intervention.
I'm joined today by our guest co-host, the Reverend Al Sharpton, to look at the fallout, political and otherwise, of the Terri Schiavo case.
But, first, the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
The Senate Democratic whip, Dick Durbin of Illinois, visiting Iraq, said this -- quote -- "I believe what we're seeing here is good" -- end quote. Wait a minute. Nobody is more partisan than Dick Durbin. Was that really him sounding optimistic about Iraq or a Republican impersonator? Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, who has tried to be as partisan as Durbin since he became minority leader, made his first trip ever to Iraq and had this to say -- quote -- "I think there's a general feeling that people feel really good about what's going on" -- end quote.
Congratulations, Harry Reid and Dick Durbin. Good news in Iraq may be bad for Democratic politicians, but it's good for America.
(APPLAUSE)
AL SHARPTON, GUEST CO-HOST: Well, I think that, no matter what we do, you complain. Now, they say something that is...
NOVAK: I congratulated them.
SHARPTON: You congratulated them, but you did it in a way where you took a shot at them anyway. They're trying to put the best on a bad situation. We shouldn't have been there. You brought us there anyway. So now they're at least trying to give us some cheer.
NOVAK: Well, I give them credit. Rev, when I say anything nice about a Democrat, you ought to -- you ought to commend me for it, instead of saying I wasn't as nice as I could have been.
SHARPTON: Well, you weren't as nice as you could have been.
(BELL RINGING)
SHARPTON: And you always make sure they're thousands miles away before you say anything nice about them.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
SHARPTON: The recruitment banner, an Army of one, may not be as far from the truth as it once was. The U.S. Army is expected to fall short of the recruitment targets again in March and April. That would continue a trend that began in February, when active-duty recruiters missed the monthly goal for the first time in five years.
Even the Marines missed their recruitment work in January and February. Are you surprised? Unemployment is down and the Army seems to have lost its drive to lure rookie soldiers, even in communities where young people once saw military service as a viable career option. But, more importantly, would-be enlistees are not exactly energized by President Bush's foreign policy or his war in Iraq. Now, Pentagon officials do what authorities offer signing bonuses -- or now authorities are offering bonuses. I guess it figures, if you can't appeal to soldiers' patriotisms, you can always buy them off.
NOVAK: Reverend, I don't -- I don't think you want to give the impression that you think that those brave men and women fighting in Iraq are mercenaries or have been bought out. They're great patriots. They're fighting for your safety. They're fighting for my safety.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: And I think we ought to say that we ought to bless them, instead of saying that maybe they're being bought off.
(APPLAUSE)
SHARPTON: No, I said that the Pentagon is attempting to do that. I think our soldiers are fine. I think that the Pentagon and the recruiters are failing and they're failing for good reasons.
NOVAK: The new Democratic national chairman, Howard Dean, finished his red state tour in states George W. Bush carried, Kansas, Mississippi, Tennessee.
In seeking the presidential nomination last year, Dean was dismissive of people quoting scripture. But on his red tour, he quoted from the good book selective passages, like it is an easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. But he was the old Dean back in Washington, saying -- quote -- "We are never going to win by being a pale copy of the Republican Party" -- unquote.
I don't know whether Democrats are happy with Dr. Dean as national chairman, but, Al, Republicans certainly are.
(APPLAUSE)
SHARPTON: Well, I think that -- I think that saying that we can't act like a pale Republican Party and quoting that a rich man would have a hard time getting to heaven is really saying the same thing.
And in this Easter weekend, I think Reverend Dr. Dean is a good chairman in saying the right thing. I'm glad he's going to red state quoting the Bible, because it seems like you all get stuck on only one or two passages and forget the whole Bible.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, you know, you know, Al, when you have Dr. -- when you have Dr.Dean saying that, after you've taken all these lickings at the hands of the Republicans and we shouldn't try to be a little more moderate...
(BELL RINGING) NOVAK: The Republicans say, go to it, Doctor. Go to it.
SHARPTON: But it's an appropriate weekend. We may have gone down on Good Friday, but there will be a political resurrection. Don't worry about it, Mr. Novak.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
SHARPTON: It's been a busy day for me already.
Before driving over here to join my esteemed colleague across the table, I sat down with some of the movers and shakers at the Federal Communications Commission. The FCC needs to take a stand against entertainers who preach or even participate in acts of violence.
We at National Action Network asked the commission to institute a 90-day band on records and recording artists that engage in actual violent acts, not their lyrics, but engage in violent acts. We have been hearing far too long that many rappers and other performers are getting caught up in shoot-outs and other violence. It's a lot of publicity to sell music. That has to stop. The party that gave us a controversy around Janet Jackson's breast should do something about bloodshed in front of radio stations.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, I'll tell you something. I can't disagree with a thing you said. I commend you for what you are doing here.
And I will say this. You know, you were my choice for the Democratic presidential nomination. I thought that would guarantee you the nomination, but it didn't quite work out, did it?
SHARPTON: No, because many Democrats heard you. Every time you brought it up, I went down in the Democratic polls.
(LAUGHTER)
SHARPTON: But I hope to do the same for you sometime, Mr. Novak.
NOVAK: I'm not running for anything.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: But that's -- that's a -- that's a good fight you're making on -- on the entertainers.
SHARPTON: Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: The fight for Terri Schiavo's life has been both personal and political. Next, we'll debate the political fallout for those who played a very public role in this life-and-death battle. ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to CROSSFIRE at the George Washington University, call 202-994-8CNN or visit our Web site. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Barring something really remarkable, 41-year-old Terri Schiavo will, in all likelihood, die in a matter of day dies. Her parents' legal and legislative options are all but exhausted. There is one last-ditch appeal pending before a federal court in Tampa in less than an hour and a half from now.
We'll consider the fallout of the Schiavo case. Joining us today in the CROSSFIRE, Peter Fenn, a Democratic strategist, and the former Governor of Virginia Jim Gilmore. He's a former Republican national chairman, currently a partner with Kelley Drye & Warren LLP.
(APPLAUSE)
SHARPTON: Governor Gilmore, aside from being former national Republican chair, you were governor of Virginia. And you faced a very similar case to this. But do you really think this case should be dealt with at the level of the president of the United States and the Congress, regardless as to one's feelings? Do you think they should be intervening in a personal matter like this?
JAMES GILMORE (R), FORMER VIRGINIA GOVERNOR: Well, you know, Reverend, actually, the case in Virginia was an identical case. We had the exact same circumstances.
SHARPTON: The Finn case.
GILMORE: With the Finn case. We had handled it by filing a case in the -- in the Virginia courts and then having the Virginia Supreme Court review it. And that was the conclusion of it.
But I think that things have evolved since that time. I think there's now much more concern for people, much more for concern for the rights of the disabled than there used to be. And, as a result, I think you're seeing higher and higher attention at the highest levels of government. And I think that just continues the appropriate debate of the proper role of the rights of disabled in the circumstances like this.
SHARPTON: Well, I think, yes, a lot has changed. I think DeLay put it best. He thinks this is a political opportunity for conservatives to try to revive some kind of fledgling movement.
Don't you think that the combination of the Senate and the Congress and the president involved, given what DeLay has said, that it's becoming a transparent political move and this is no longer about this young lady? GILMORE: Well, in Virginia, in 1998, it became a total political football. The people on the left actually politicized it to the greatest extent that they possibly could. And that was really sad.
And, as a result of that, I don't think we learned an awful lot about where we should be heading as a society, about the rights of disabled people, about the differences between respirators and feeding tubes and that kind of situation and really the rights of family people to look after people like their daughter. Those things have never been discussed to the fullest extent the way that I think they are being now. And, at least, hopefully, that will be something good that will come out of this debate.
NOVAK: Peter Fenn, you know, there is about half of the Democrats who voted in the House of Representatives voted for the intervention. And one of those who voted was Congressman Elijah E. Cummings of Maryland. I think he's a very thoughtful gentleman. He happens to be an African-American. And I'd like you to read something he said.
He said: "When I'm dealing with an issue of life and death, I do everything in my power to leave politics at the door of the House chamber and vote according to my conscious and my Christian beliefs. I do resent the fact that some have tried to use this issue to get some type of political advantage" -- unquote.
You know, I know we're supposed to, on this program, be talking about the political fallout. But don't you think we'd be a lot better off, including you, Peter, to follow Elijah Cummings' example and try to leave politics at the door?
PETER FENN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I will tell you, I think this is, no question, a personal tragedy. What I'm afraid of is, it's become a political tragedy.
In other words, what has happened is, this no longer about this girl or this family. This is now about politics. And, you know, the recent poll that just came out showed that 82 percent of Americans believe that the Congress and the president should not have intervened in this case. Two-thirds of conservatives and evangelicals feel that very same way. This is a personal question. It was a dispute within a family. We all don't know all the details. The courts have decided it.
Now it has become a political football.
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: The hundreds of cases, similar cases, are they going to be judged this way with Congress? I hope not.
NOVAK: You see, the point -- the point is that I expected that you would do this, because I've been on this with you for many, many times. And you completely ignore what Congressman Cummings..
(CROSSTALK) NOVAK: Just a minute. Let me talk. You completely ignore what Congressman Cummings said. You are talking about polls and politics, and this guy is up and Bush is up and Bush is down.
Congress...
FENN: I...
NOVAK: Just a minute. Then you'll get a chance.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Congressman Cummings wants to talk about this girl, but you want to talk about George Bush.
FENN: No. I said, look, everybody has their own personal feelings about this. This is a personal tragedy. I said that.
You know, some people come down on the side of the husband. Some come down on the side of the parents. But the whole point is, what is best for her? The husband thinks and believes that he has the best interests of her at heart. He says that she did not want to live this way, in a vegetative state. The parents want -- you know, they want -- they think they still have hope. Doctors say you don't have hope. But, you know, how do you know?
(CROSSTALK)
GILMORE: How would he know? But I would say this.
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: I was just going to say, the courts are the place to decide that, right, Governor? You shouldn't do it in the Congress, should you?
GILMORE: I think it's healthy at this point to think about at least two issues.
One is the difference between a respirator and a feeding tube. You know, everybody has to eat. And I would hate to see a situation where we get to the point where people feed themselves who can't feed themselves somehow are supposed to die or to die of dehydration or starvation. I think this is an issue that is worth discussing.
And the second is, why shouldn't we just let the spouse go ahead and move on to their productive life? And if family people, like the mother and father, want to look after this young woman and wanted to look after Hugh Finn, why shouldn't we have a situation like that?
SHARPTON: You know, Governor, what is interesting to me is...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: ... that I've heard a lot of right-wingers this week in the last several days say, if we err, let's err on the side of life. Well, why don't you take that position with the death penalty?
(APPLAUSE)
GILMORE: Because they're not the same. Because -- no.
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: But there can be error there.
GILMORE: No. No.
SHARPTON: And when there's a close call there, I don't hear the right wing saying, let's err on the side of life.
GILMORE: No. Don't talk about apples and oranges, completely different things.
SHARPTON: But if we are discussing fruit, we can talk about it.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
GILMORE: No. Listen, listen...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: We're talking about errors here.
GILMORE: No, no, let me say this. If you're talking about the criminal law, you're talking about people who have taken lives and then have to face the courts of justice.
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: No. But if there's a question that they haven't taken lives, why don't you err on the side of life? If you have someone on death row that we're not sure did the crime, why don't you err on the side of life?
(CROSSTALK)
GILMORE: Losing the issue of Finn and Schiavo, you now choose to change the subject.
SHARPTON: No. The subject -- no, the subject is...
GILMORE: But I'll be glad to talk about that, too.
(APPLAUSE)
SHARPTON: ... that those that have come in politically have tried to act like...
GILMORE: No. SHARPTON: ... well, we may or may not be wrong. We go with life. I'm saying, no, they may or may not want to play politics here. They're not trying to be right here.
(CROSSTALK)
GILMORE: Where is the court of law and trial to make sure we protect the rights of people like Terri Schiavo?
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: I think there's been several courts that have ruled here. And I think Jeb Bush is not satisfied with their ruling.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: All right. Mr. -- Mr. Fenn, I want -- I want to quote another congressman. This is a Republican, Joe Pitts of Pennsylvania.
He says: "We asked the courts to take a new look at Terri's case. And they obviously have not done this. Instead, they have abandoned her humanity over an issue of legality."
Now, I guess you're a -- I guess I always thought you were interested in humanity, but you're interested in legalisms, aren't you?
FENN: Well, I guess you're interested in interventionist judges, aren't you?
I mean, you know, this -- this whole point of -- we have a system in this country. If there's a dispute, it goes to a court. And when it goes to a court, they look at the facts. They have doctors. They make their decisions based upon the facts. And, for 15 years, this woman has been in a vegetative state . For seven years, they've been adjudicating this.
NOVAK: OK.
FENN: The judges have come down with ruling after ruling after ruling about it.
NOVAK: We are going to have -- we are going to have to take a break.
FENN: OK.
NOVAK: And when our guests return, is abuse -- abuse -- a factor in the Terri Schiavo case?
And, just ahead, victims describe their experiences as a fellow student went on a shooting rampage earlier this week.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello. I'm Miles O'Brien at the CNN Center in Atlanta.
Coming up at the top of the hour, Wolf Blitzer continues his Persian Gulf tour. Today, he'll report on operations at the Iraqi port city Umm Qasr.
The Supreme Court refuses again to hear the Terri Schiavo case. We'll meet members of a New York family who say they went through a similar ordeal.
And a teenager wounded in the Minnesota school shooting says Jeff Weise had a mean face during the attack.
All those stories and much more just moments away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: At 6:00 p.m., a federal judge in Tampa is expected to hear a request to review evidence rejected by a state court in one more push to have Terri Schiavo's feeding tube restored. Florida Governor Jeb Bush is said to be searching for a way to intervene.
As we wait to see the outcome of these 11th-hour efforts, we consider the repercussions. Our guests are Democratic strategist Peter Fenn and the former Governor of Virginia Jim Gilmore.
Reverend Sharpton.
SHARPTON: Governor Gilmore, you yourself, it was said when you felt members of the left had politicized an identical case to this one when you were governor of Virginia, the Finn case. Are you sad now to see DeLay and others on the right politicize this case to the degree it has been politicized?
GILMORE: Yes. I don't think this issue should be politicized by anyone, then or now and anywhere ever.
But what I -- I want to come back to a point that you made a little while ago. I'm not suggesting, Reverend, that we second-guess the courts on this at all, either on a death penalty case or on this case. What I am suggesting, though, is that, as we look ahead in the future, that we learn something from these cases. And we ask ourselves, where does this take us in terms of the rights of disabled people?
I think Governor Bush and certainly, in my case, we cared a lot about people who can't after for themselves and the most helpless. And I think that we wanted to have the matter go before a court to be reviewed. So I think the question is...
SHARPTON: So you don't think Governor Bush should ask for custody, then, tonight?
GILMORE: I think that Governor Bush is doing everything he can do to make sure that people who can't take care of themselves are protected. That's what I think he's doing. NOVAK: Peter, Peter, the -- the adviser to the Schindler family, Brother O'Donnell had something remarkable to say. And I'd like you to take a listen to it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL O'DONNELL, SCHINDLER FAMILY ADVISER: Mary and Bob Schindler have to stand by and watch the abuser continue to abuse and murder their daughter. This is America. Please, someone help Terri and help this family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: The abuser they're talking about is her husband, who has a common law wife who has borne him two children. I can't understand how so many people are saying the sanctity of marriage is involved when this person has abandoned her.
FENN: Well, I -- I think this is a terrible difficult personal situation. For five years, she was in a vegetative state. Yes, I guess he has a relationship with another woman that started about 10 years ago.
NOVAK: She bore him two children. That's a strong relationship. And he lives with her.
FENN: I -- I -- I understand that. And I'm not going to be a judge over anybody on this.
I think questioning the motives of the husband, questioning the motives of the parents doesn't get us anywhere. I mean, I think what you have is, as I said -- and I'll say it again -- is a personal tragedy on all fronts.
NOVAK: Why...
FENN: I think the problem is that, for -- for -- for that gentleman to accuse him of being an abuser, I think that's over the line. I think that is over the line.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Why are -- I want to ask you a question I have been asking all week, quickly. Why are liberals so anxious for this woman to die?
FENN: I -- that's not the issue. I'm not anxious for the woman to die. I'm not anxious for anybody to die.
NOVAK: I'm sorry. We're out of -- I'm glad you -- I'm glad you aren't. We're out of time, though.
Peter Fenn, thank you.
Governor Gilmore.
Next, we'll find out how the politicians who run Washington, D.C., are playing politics -- Can you believe it? -- with the opening day of the baseball season.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Major League Baseball returns to the nation's capital next month, after a 34-year road trip.
With the debut of the Washington Nationals at RFK Stadium, you would expect President Bush to toss the first pitch, right? Mayor Anthony Williams has asked him. But the D.C. City Council is considering a resolution to restrict first-pitch honors only to advocates of district voting rights in Congress, such as D.C. Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton.
I heard about this measure from Delegate Norton yesterday when she joined us here on CROSSFIRE. I wonder if the D.C. vote advocates really think that insulting the president of the United States helps their cause.
SHARPTON: Well, I think that, clearly, he's already taken his position. I think, for him to want to throw out the ball at the opening game is like a man denouncing a woman and then saying, let me give you away at your wedding.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, I happen to live in the District of Columbia. I'm against D.C. voting rights, so I want him to throw out the first ball.
SHARPTON: Well, I think you and him want to reconsider your position. And someone that believes...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Well, you're a New Yorker. I'm from...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: From the left, I've Reverend Al Sharpton. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the left -- from the right, from the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
And "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
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Aired March 24, 2005 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, the Reverend Al Sharpton; on the right, Robert Novak.
In the CROSSFIRE:
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The United States Supreme Court has denied the motion by the Schindlers to reinsert the feeding tube.
ANNOUNCER: Terri Schiavo's family has fought to keep her alive in the courts of law and in the court of public opinion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're in shock. They can't believe this happening. This is a very significant blow. And Terri's life hangs in the balance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's time for this activity to stop as we approach this Easter weekend and that Mrs. Schiavo be able to die in peace.
ANNOUNCER: How long will the political fight over Terri Schiavo last? And will there be a political price to pay for those who jump into the middle of this issue in a very public way?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, the Reverend Al Sharpton and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Options for the parents of Terri Schiavo are almost gone. She has had no food or water since her feeding tube was removed last Friday. And efforts to have it reinserted were rejected today by the Supreme Court and again by the Florida courts. There's at least one more hearing scheduled in a Tampa federal court at 6:00 p.m., a last- ditch appeal by Schiavo's parents emergency intervention.
I'm joined today by our guest co-host, the Reverend Al Sharpton, to look at the fallout, political and otherwise, of the Terri Schiavo case.
But, first, the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
The Senate Democratic whip, Dick Durbin of Illinois, visiting Iraq, said this -- quote -- "I believe what we're seeing here is good" -- end quote. Wait a minute. Nobody is more partisan than Dick Durbin. Was that really him sounding optimistic about Iraq or a Republican impersonator? Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, who has tried to be as partisan as Durbin since he became minority leader, made his first trip ever to Iraq and had this to say -- quote -- "I think there's a general feeling that people feel really good about what's going on" -- end quote.
Congratulations, Harry Reid and Dick Durbin. Good news in Iraq may be bad for Democratic politicians, but it's good for America.
(APPLAUSE)
AL SHARPTON, GUEST CO-HOST: Well, I think that, no matter what we do, you complain. Now, they say something that is...
NOVAK: I congratulated them.
SHARPTON: You congratulated them, but you did it in a way where you took a shot at them anyway. They're trying to put the best on a bad situation. We shouldn't have been there. You brought us there anyway. So now they're at least trying to give us some cheer.
NOVAK: Well, I give them credit. Rev, when I say anything nice about a Democrat, you ought to -- you ought to commend me for it, instead of saying I wasn't as nice as I could have been.
SHARPTON: Well, you weren't as nice as you could have been.
(BELL RINGING)
SHARPTON: And you always make sure they're thousands miles away before you say anything nice about them.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
SHARPTON: The recruitment banner, an Army of one, may not be as far from the truth as it once was. The U.S. Army is expected to fall short of the recruitment targets again in March and April. That would continue a trend that began in February, when active-duty recruiters missed the monthly goal for the first time in five years.
Even the Marines missed their recruitment work in January and February. Are you surprised? Unemployment is down and the Army seems to have lost its drive to lure rookie soldiers, even in communities where young people once saw military service as a viable career option. But, more importantly, would-be enlistees are not exactly energized by President Bush's foreign policy or his war in Iraq. Now, Pentagon officials do what authorities offer signing bonuses -- or now authorities are offering bonuses. I guess it figures, if you can't appeal to soldiers' patriotisms, you can always buy them off.
NOVAK: Reverend, I don't -- I don't think you want to give the impression that you think that those brave men and women fighting in Iraq are mercenaries or have been bought out. They're great patriots. They're fighting for your safety. They're fighting for my safety.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: And I think we ought to say that we ought to bless them, instead of saying that maybe they're being bought off.
(APPLAUSE)
SHARPTON: No, I said that the Pentagon is attempting to do that. I think our soldiers are fine. I think that the Pentagon and the recruiters are failing and they're failing for good reasons.
NOVAK: The new Democratic national chairman, Howard Dean, finished his red state tour in states George W. Bush carried, Kansas, Mississippi, Tennessee.
In seeking the presidential nomination last year, Dean was dismissive of people quoting scripture. But on his red tour, he quoted from the good book selective passages, like it is an easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. But he was the old Dean back in Washington, saying -- quote -- "We are never going to win by being a pale copy of the Republican Party" -- unquote.
I don't know whether Democrats are happy with Dr. Dean as national chairman, but, Al, Republicans certainly are.
(APPLAUSE)
SHARPTON: Well, I think that -- I think that saying that we can't act like a pale Republican Party and quoting that a rich man would have a hard time getting to heaven is really saying the same thing.
And in this Easter weekend, I think Reverend Dr. Dean is a good chairman in saying the right thing. I'm glad he's going to red state quoting the Bible, because it seems like you all get stuck on only one or two passages and forget the whole Bible.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, you know, you know, Al, when you have Dr. -- when you have Dr.Dean saying that, after you've taken all these lickings at the hands of the Republicans and we shouldn't try to be a little more moderate...
(BELL RINGING) NOVAK: The Republicans say, go to it, Doctor. Go to it.
SHARPTON: But it's an appropriate weekend. We may have gone down on Good Friday, but there will be a political resurrection. Don't worry about it, Mr. Novak.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
SHARPTON: It's been a busy day for me already.
Before driving over here to join my esteemed colleague across the table, I sat down with some of the movers and shakers at the Federal Communications Commission. The FCC needs to take a stand against entertainers who preach or even participate in acts of violence.
We at National Action Network asked the commission to institute a 90-day band on records and recording artists that engage in actual violent acts, not their lyrics, but engage in violent acts. We have been hearing far too long that many rappers and other performers are getting caught up in shoot-outs and other violence. It's a lot of publicity to sell music. That has to stop. The party that gave us a controversy around Janet Jackson's breast should do something about bloodshed in front of radio stations.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, I'll tell you something. I can't disagree with a thing you said. I commend you for what you are doing here.
And I will say this. You know, you were my choice for the Democratic presidential nomination. I thought that would guarantee you the nomination, but it didn't quite work out, did it?
SHARPTON: No, because many Democrats heard you. Every time you brought it up, I went down in the Democratic polls.
(LAUGHTER)
SHARPTON: But I hope to do the same for you sometime, Mr. Novak.
NOVAK: I'm not running for anything.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: But that's -- that's a -- that's a good fight you're making on -- on the entertainers.
SHARPTON: Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: The fight for Terri Schiavo's life has been both personal and political. Next, we'll debate the political fallout for those who played a very public role in this life-and-death battle. ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to CROSSFIRE at the George Washington University, call 202-994-8CNN or visit our Web site. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Barring something really remarkable, 41-year-old Terri Schiavo will, in all likelihood, die in a matter of day dies. Her parents' legal and legislative options are all but exhausted. There is one last-ditch appeal pending before a federal court in Tampa in less than an hour and a half from now.
We'll consider the fallout of the Schiavo case. Joining us today in the CROSSFIRE, Peter Fenn, a Democratic strategist, and the former Governor of Virginia Jim Gilmore. He's a former Republican national chairman, currently a partner with Kelley Drye & Warren LLP.
(APPLAUSE)
SHARPTON: Governor Gilmore, aside from being former national Republican chair, you were governor of Virginia. And you faced a very similar case to this. But do you really think this case should be dealt with at the level of the president of the United States and the Congress, regardless as to one's feelings? Do you think they should be intervening in a personal matter like this?
JAMES GILMORE (R), FORMER VIRGINIA GOVERNOR: Well, you know, Reverend, actually, the case in Virginia was an identical case. We had the exact same circumstances.
SHARPTON: The Finn case.
GILMORE: With the Finn case. We had handled it by filing a case in the -- in the Virginia courts and then having the Virginia Supreme Court review it. And that was the conclusion of it.
But I think that things have evolved since that time. I think there's now much more concern for people, much more for concern for the rights of the disabled than there used to be. And, as a result, I think you're seeing higher and higher attention at the highest levels of government. And I think that just continues the appropriate debate of the proper role of the rights of disabled in the circumstances like this.
SHARPTON: Well, I think, yes, a lot has changed. I think DeLay put it best. He thinks this is a political opportunity for conservatives to try to revive some kind of fledgling movement.
Don't you think that the combination of the Senate and the Congress and the president involved, given what DeLay has said, that it's becoming a transparent political move and this is no longer about this young lady? GILMORE: Well, in Virginia, in 1998, it became a total political football. The people on the left actually politicized it to the greatest extent that they possibly could. And that was really sad.
And, as a result of that, I don't think we learned an awful lot about where we should be heading as a society, about the rights of disabled people, about the differences between respirators and feeding tubes and that kind of situation and really the rights of family people to look after people like their daughter. Those things have never been discussed to the fullest extent the way that I think they are being now. And, at least, hopefully, that will be something good that will come out of this debate.
NOVAK: Peter Fenn, you know, there is about half of the Democrats who voted in the House of Representatives voted for the intervention. And one of those who voted was Congressman Elijah E. Cummings of Maryland. I think he's a very thoughtful gentleman. He happens to be an African-American. And I'd like you to read something he said.
He said: "When I'm dealing with an issue of life and death, I do everything in my power to leave politics at the door of the House chamber and vote according to my conscious and my Christian beliefs. I do resent the fact that some have tried to use this issue to get some type of political advantage" -- unquote.
You know, I know we're supposed to, on this program, be talking about the political fallout. But don't you think we'd be a lot better off, including you, Peter, to follow Elijah Cummings' example and try to leave politics at the door?
PETER FENN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I will tell you, I think this is, no question, a personal tragedy. What I'm afraid of is, it's become a political tragedy.
In other words, what has happened is, this no longer about this girl or this family. This is now about politics. And, you know, the recent poll that just came out showed that 82 percent of Americans believe that the Congress and the president should not have intervened in this case. Two-thirds of conservatives and evangelicals feel that very same way. This is a personal question. It was a dispute within a family. We all don't know all the details. The courts have decided it.
Now it has become a political football.
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: The hundreds of cases, similar cases, are they going to be judged this way with Congress? I hope not.
NOVAK: You see, the point -- the point is that I expected that you would do this, because I've been on this with you for many, many times. And you completely ignore what Congressman Cummings..
(CROSSTALK) NOVAK: Just a minute. Let me talk. You completely ignore what Congressman Cummings said. You are talking about polls and politics, and this guy is up and Bush is up and Bush is down.
Congress...
FENN: I...
NOVAK: Just a minute. Then you'll get a chance.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Congressman Cummings wants to talk about this girl, but you want to talk about George Bush.
FENN: No. I said, look, everybody has their own personal feelings about this. This is a personal tragedy. I said that.
You know, some people come down on the side of the husband. Some come down on the side of the parents. But the whole point is, what is best for her? The husband thinks and believes that he has the best interests of her at heart. He says that she did not want to live this way, in a vegetative state. The parents want -- you know, they want -- they think they still have hope. Doctors say you don't have hope. But, you know, how do you know?
(CROSSTALK)
GILMORE: How would he know? But I would say this.
(CROSSTALK)
FENN: I was just going to say, the courts are the place to decide that, right, Governor? You shouldn't do it in the Congress, should you?
GILMORE: I think it's healthy at this point to think about at least two issues.
One is the difference between a respirator and a feeding tube. You know, everybody has to eat. And I would hate to see a situation where we get to the point where people feed themselves who can't feed themselves somehow are supposed to die or to die of dehydration or starvation. I think this is an issue that is worth discussing.
And the second is, why shouldn't we just let the spouse go ahead and move on to their productive life? And if family people, like the mother and father, want to look after this young woman and wanted to look after Hugh Finn, why shouldn't we have a situation like that?
SHARPTON: You know, Governor, what is interesting to me is...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: ... that I've heard a lot of right-wingers this week in the last several days say, if we err, let's err on the side of life. Well, why don't you take that position with the death penalty?
(APPLAUSE)
GILMORE: Because they're not the same. Because -- no.
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: But there can be error there.
GILMORE: No. No.
SHARPTON: And when there's a close call there, I don't hear the right wing saying, let's err on the side of life.
GILMORE: No. Don't talk about apples and oranges, completely different things.
SHARPTON: But if we are discussing fruit, we can talk about it.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
GILMORE: No. Listen, listen...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: We're talking about errors here.
GILMORE: No, no, let me say this. If you're talking about the criminal law, you're talking about people who have taken lives and then have to face the courts of justice.
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: No. But if there's a question that they haven't taken lives, why don't you err on the side of life? If you have someone on death row that we're not sure did the crime, why don't you err on the side of life?
(CROSSTALK)
GILMORE: Losing the issue of Finn and Schiavo, you now choose to change the subject.
SHARPTON: No. The subject -- no, the subject is...
GILMORE: But I'll be glad to talk about that, too.
(APPLAUSE)
SHARPTON: ... that those that have come in politically have tried to act like...
GILMORE: No. SHARPTON: ... well, we may or may not be wrong. We go with life. I'm saying, no, they may or may not want to play politics here. They're not trying to be right here.
(CROSSTALK)
GILMORE: Where is the court of law and trial to make sure we protect the rights of people like Terri Schiavo?
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: I think there's been several courts that have ruled here. And I think Jeb Bush is not satisfied with their ruling.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: All right. Mr. -- Mr. Fenn, I want -- I want to quote another congressman. This is a Republican, Joe Pitts of Pennsylvania.
He says: "We asked the courts to take a new look at Terri's case. And they obviously have not done this. Instead, they have abandoned her humanity over an issue of legality."
Now, I guess you're a -- I guess I always thought you were interested in humanity, but you're interested in legalisms, aren't you?
FENN: Well, I guess you're interested in interventionist judges, aren't you?
I mean, you know, this -- this whole point of -- we have a system in this country. If there's a dispute, it goes to a court. And when it goes to a court, they look at the facts. They have doctors. They make their decisions based upon the facts. And, for 15 years, this woman has been in a vegetative state . For seven years, they've been adjudicating this.
NOVAK: OK.
FENN: The judges have come down with ruling after ruling after ruling about it.
NOVAK: We are going to have -- we are going to have to take a break.
FENN: OK.
NOVAK: And when our guests return, is abuse -- abuse -- a factor in the Terri Schiavo case?
And, just ahead, victims describe their experiences as a fellow student went on a shooting rampage earlier this week.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello. I'm Miles O'Brien at the CNN Center in Atlanta.
Coming up at the top of the hour, Wolf Blitzer continues his Persian Gulf tour. Today, he'll report on operations at the Iraqi port city Umm Qasr.
The Supreme Court refuses again to hear the Terri Schiavo case. We'll meet members of a New York family who say they went through a similar ordeal.
And a teenager wounded in the Minnesota school shooting says Jeff Weise had a mean face during the attack.
All those stories and much more just moments away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: At 6:00 p.m., a federal judge in Tampa is expected to hear a request to review evidence rejected by a state court in one more push to have Terri Schiavo's feeding tube restored. Florida Governor Jeb Bush is said to be searching for a way to intervene.
As we wait to see the outcome of these 11th-hour efforts, we consider the repercussions. Our guests are Democratic strategist Peter Fenn and the former Governor of Virginia Jim Gilmore.
Reverend Sharpton.
SHARPTON: Governor Gilmore, you yourself, it was said when you felt members of the left had politicized an identical case to this one when you were governor of Virginia, the Finn case. Are you sad now to see DeLay and others on the right politicize this case to the degree it has been politicized?
GILMORE: Yes. I don't think this issue should be politicized by anyone, then or now and anywhere ever.
But what I -- I want to come back to a point that you made a little while ago. I'm not suggesting, Reverend, that we second-guess the courts on this at all, either on a death penalty case or on this case. What I am suggesting, though, is that, as we look ahead in the future, that we learn something from these cases. And we ask ourselves, where does this take us in terms of the rights of disabled people?
I think Governor Bush and certainly, in my case, we cared a lot about people who can't after for themselves and the most helpless. And I think that we wanted to have the matter go before a court to be reviewed. So I think the question is...
SHARPTON: So you don't think Governor Bush should ask for custody, then, tonight?
GILMORE: I think that Governor Bush is doing everything he can do to make sure that people who can't take care of themselves are protected. That's what I think he's doing. NOVAK: Peter, Peter, the -- the adviser to the Schindler family, Brother O'Donnell had something remarkable to say. And I'd like you to take a listen to it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL O'DONNELL, SCHINDLER FAMILY ADVISER: Mary and Bob Schindler have to stand by and watch the abuser continue to abuse and murder their daughter. This is America. Please, someone help Terri and help this family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: The abuser they're talking about is her husband, who has a common law wife who has borne him two children. I can't understand how so many people are saying the sanctity of marriage is involved when this person has abandoned her.
FENN: Well, I -- I think this is a terrible difficult personal situation. For five years, she was in a vegetative state. Yes, I guess he has a relationship with another woman that started about 10 years ago.
NOVAK: She bore him two children. That's a strong relationship. And he lives with her.
FENN: I -- I -- I understand that. And I'm not going to be a judge over anybody on this.
I think questioning the motives of the husband, questioning the motives of the parents doesn't get us anywhere. I mean, I think what you have is, as I said -- and I'll say it again -- is a personal tragedy on all fronts.
NOVAK: Why...
FENN: I think the problem is that, for -- for -- for that gentleman to accuse him of being an abuser, I think that's over the line. I think that is over the line.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Why are -- I want to ask you a question I have been asking all week, quickly. Why are liberals so anxious for this woman to die?
FENN: I -- that's not the issue. I'm not anxious for the woman to die. I'm not anxious for anybody to die.
NOVAK: I'm sorry. We're out of -- I'm glad you -- I'm glad you aren't. We're out of time, though.
Peter Fenn, thank you.
Governor Gilmore.
Next, we'll find out how the politicians who run Washington, D.C., are playing politics -- Can you believe it? -- with the opening day of the baseball season.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Major League Baseball returns to the nation's capital next month, after a 34-year road trip.
With the debut of the Washington Nationals at RFK Stadium, you would expect President Bush to toss the first pitch, right? Mayor Anthony Williams has asked him. But the D.C. City Council is considering a resolution to restrict first-pitch honors only to advocates of district voting rights in Congress, such as D.C. Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton.
I heard about this measure from Delegate Norton yesterday when she joined us here on CROSSFIRE. I wonder if the D.C. vote advocates really think that insulting the president of the United States helps their cause.
SHARPTON: Well, I think that, clearly, he's already taken his position. I think, for him to want to throw out the ball at the opening game is like a man denouncing a woman and then saying, let me give you away at your wedding.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, I happen to live in the District of Columbia. I'm against D.C. voting rights, so I want him to throw out the first ball.
SHARPTON: Well, I think you and him want to reconsider your position. And someone that believes...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Well, you're a New Yorker. I'm from...
(CROSSTALK)
SHARPTON: From the left, I've Reverend Al Sharpton. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the left -- from the right, from the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
And "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
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