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CNN Crossfire
Schiavo Memo Controversy; Clinton's Pope Comments
Aired April 07, 2005 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak.
In the CROSSFIRE: A Republican senator comes clean about a controversial Capitol Hill memo on the Terri Schiavo case. He says the buck stops at his office. Will there be a political price to pay?
As the funeral mass for Pope John Paul II approaches, a former president predicts a mixed legacy for the late pontiff. Is he right on or out of line?
We know it and Vice President Dick Cheney knows it.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm not into funny.
(LAUGHTER)
ANNOUNCER: So why are so many people laughing? Could it be Mr. Cheney's plan for 2008?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Remember that memo in which Republicans in Congress said the tragedy of Terri Schiavo was a political plus for their party? It was so repugnant that some right-wingers even alleged that it might be a forgery planted by dastardly Democrat or perhaps the media. Well, today, we learned the memo was written by a senior Republican aide on Capitol Hill. And a lot of my conservative friends have a lot of egg on their faces.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Some guy in one senator's office who nobody ever heard of suddenly becomes a senior Republican aide. And he was fired yesterday, as soon as his boss found out he was the culprit. The Democrats must be hard up for issues. Maybe they are worried about losing the Catholic vote to the Republicans and about the good news now from political stabilization in Iraq.
We'll be all over the map with these issues, but, first, the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Bill Clinton flying to Rome aboard Air Force One said Pope John Paul II had a mixed legacy. What was mixed about it, Bubba? Well, Clinton gave the pope credit for defeating communism, but was unhappy with what he called a very conservative theological doctrine. He said -- quote -- "The number of Catholics increased by 250 million on his watch, but the number of priests didn't. He's like all of us. He may have a mixed legacy" -- unquote.
I guess Bill Clinton claims a mixed legacy himself, disgracing the presidency, but also creating a bubble economy. He did credit the pope for being consistently pro-life, against abortion and against capital punishment, while President Clinton was consistently pro- death, for abortion and the death penalty.
BEGALA: Let's talk about pro-death. The great apostle of the culture of death in America is George W. Bush. He executed Karla Faye Tucker. He executed great-grandmothers. The Holy Father begged him not to. He killed them anyway. Holy Father begged him not to go to war in Iraq. He did so anyway.
This president has been about the culture of death from the beginning to end. I prayed every day that he would listen to John Paul.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I continue to pray that he will listen to the leadership of John Paul, even after his death.
NOVAK: I thought I was talking about Bubba and not W., because...
BEGALA: I'm contrasting them.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: I thought I was saying that he was pro-death, because he was for abortion and the death penalty, your boss was.
BEGALA: And George W. Bush is for the war and for killing great- grandmothers and the retarded.
Thanks, George.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, anyway, speaking of our president, the 14th Amendment to the Constitution is clear. It says -- quote -- "The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions, shall not be questioned" -- unquote.
So, why was President Bush questioning the public debt issued to support pensions, in this case, Social Security? Here's our president in West Virginia this week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The office here in Parkersburg stores those IOUs. They're stacked in a filing cabinet. Imagine, the retirement security for future generations is sitting in a filing cabinet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: President Bill Clinton built an enormous surplus in the Social Security trust fund, a surplus that's invested in U.S. Treasury bonds, bonds which Mr. Bush now questions.
President Bush's attack on the bonds may well be a violation of the 14th Amendment. And it is a sad day when the president of the United States of America has such contempt for the Social Security trust fund and even the Constitution.
NOVAK: You know, you know, Paul, you have exceeded yourself in silliness today.
Two points. No. 1, those IOUs are not Treasury bonds. They are not negotiable.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: A Treasury bond has to be negotiable. That isn't.
Secondly, the 14th Amendment, you take out of context. This is to say that we could not pay off slaveholders in the South. Boy, oh boy, somebody has given you a real load of bull, my friend.
BEGALA: We should have -- we'll have a longer discussion about this when we continue. Go ahead, Bob.
NOVAK: The National Urban League, a prestigious African-American organization, held a reception in Washington last night. Democratic national chairman Howard Dean was not there, but Republican National Chairman Ken Mehlman was. A Dean spokesman says that Dean had a schedule conflict with the Radio and TV Correspondents Dinner.
But Republican Mehlman managed to make both events. Dr. Dean must be undercover. Haven't seen him on national TV since he became chairman, have you? He's dodging debates with Mehlman. It doesn't bother his adoring supporters, however. A new Pew Research survey disclosed, more than four out of five Dean activists call themselves liberals, compared to only 27 percent of all Democrats.
The world's oldest political party has got some leader, Paul. BEGALA: Well, actually, one former leader of the Republican Party once said 99 percent of politics is showing up. Good for Ken Mehlman for showing up.
It reminds me, though, that, when George W. Bush was governor of my state of Texas, he refused to show up for the funeral of James Byrd, a man who was lynched in his state of Texas. Political Republican leaders like Kay Bailey Hutchison, our senator, was there. Our governor refused to attend that funeral. Good for him for going to the pope's funeral. Bad for him not going to the funeral of James Byrd, one of his citizens, who was lynched in his own state.
NOVAK: I was talking...
BEGALA: That's more important than an Urban League political dinner, Bob.
NOVAK: I was talking about Howard Dean. How is it everything I say, you answer with an attack on George W. Bush?
BEGALA: Because I don't like him.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: The president of the United States?
BEGALA: I don't like him.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, all right, just to support Bob, I'll get off of President Bush for a moment and get on to an unusual target.
Arkansas State University Mountain Home advertises itself as a school where students can develop what are called -- quote -- "critical thinking skills" -- unquote. So, why are they censoring a speaker? David Corn of "The Nation" is one of the most brilliant and progressive journalists of our time. He's also a fine speaker, as Fox News recognized when they hired him as an analyst.
When Mr. Corn was asked to speak at Arkansas State University Mountain Home, at a greatly reduced fee, I might add, he agreed. And then some weasel named Mick Spaulding, the vice chancellor for development, disinvited Mr. Corn. David was told he was dumped because his Web site, www.DavidCorn.com, advertised T-shirts with slogans like: "Don't blame me. I voted for Kerry."
Pretty tame stuff compared to Dick "Potty Mouth" Cheney, but apparently enough to get booted from Arkansas State University Mountain Home. You know, it's a school that doesn't get mentioned on CNN very often. And it's too bad the only time it does is to expose its censorship and close-mindedness. Incidentally, Mr. Spaulding's e- mail is MSpaulding@asumh.edu, MSpaulding@ -- well, you got it on the screen. Whatever. NOVAK: I would recommend to Mr. Spaulding that he reinvite Mr. Corn. I think everybody should...
BEGALA: Good for you.
NOVAK: These students should hear all points of view. But that...
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: The real problem with the universities, Paul, is that they don't invite conservatives. They have only left-wing speakers on campuses like Berkeley and Harvard. They don't let people like me tell them what the truth is about America.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, they should have you. They should.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: I have seen you speak a dozen times, two dozen times. You are great. They ought to have Novak and they ought to have David Corn.
NOVAK: And Paul Begala.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: The death of Pope John Paul II has dominated the news this week. But politicians are still having plenty of news. Next, the two worlds come together as former President Bill Clinton makes inappropriate comments about the pope that are triggering debate.
And, later, Vice President Dick Cheney, Mr. Comedian, talks about what he has planned for 2008.
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to CROSSFIRE at the George Washington University, call 202-994-8CNN or visit our Web site. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Now that the mystery of the controversial Capitol Hill memo regarding Terri Schiavo has been solved, will Republicans apologize for politicizing the tragedy and then trying to pin their sleazy memo on the Democrats? At the same time, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay is under siege. And a new poll shows President Bush in a little bit of trouble. Lots to talk about today and two good folks to talk about it with us. Joining us today in the CROSSFIRE, Jacobus -- she is a Republican consultant and former deputy communications director for the mighty Republican National Committee -- and Democratic strategist, a mighty man himself, Vic Kamber.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Mr. Kamber, they -- one of the unfortunate aspects of this -- of the pope's death, is, they let Bill Clinton out in public to talk to reporters. He was on Air Force One to Italy. And he had a lot to say about the pope, all of it stupid.
But listen to what -- I will just read you this one thing. He said: "There will be debates about him," that is, the pope, "but, on balance, he was a man of God. He was a consistent person. He did what he thought was right. That's about all you can ask of anybody" -- end quote. In other words, you know, he was a mediocre guy, but he tried. This was one of the great figures in history.
Who do you agree with, me or Bill Clinton?
VIC KAMBER, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, I don't agree with the way you read it. And I certainly don't agree with taking it out of context.
There's no question Bill Clinton admired and respected him. He questioned some. I mean, he said it. He said that some of the directions that the pope was overseeing were different than his views.
Listen, I love the pope. I'm a Christian and I'm a Protestant. I happen to not disagree -- I happen to disagree with many of the conservative positions of the Catholic Church, but you can't take away the Godliness or the wonderfulness of this pope.
NOVAK: Well, you don't...
KAMBER: And I don't think Bill Clinton tried to do that either.
NOVAK: I don't think you know anything about theology, Catholic theology, at least.
KAMBER: Be careful, Bob.
NOVAK: But...
KAMBER: Be careful on that. I do.
NOVAK: But I think you know a lot about politics. And let me just show you some figures. We're going to put them up on the board of what is happening with the white Catholic vote in America.
Bob Dole, running against Clinton in 96, got 41 percent. George W. Bush in 2000 got 52 percent; 2004, he got 56 percent. When you have Bill Clinton saying, well, the president -- the pope was wrong on a lot of stuff, but he tried, that figure is going to keep going up, isn't it?
KAMBER: No, no.
What you are looking at on that figure was in -- in the first race was an incumbent. When Dole got 41 percent, he was running against an incumbent. And the incumbent did well. When Bush ran the second time, the incumbent -- he did -- as an incumbent, did four points better. It was a 50/50 race basically the first time, 52-48 percent first time. And it will be that way consistently going forward.
BEGALA: Cheri, unlike Bob, I was actually there on two occasions when President Clinton met with the Holy Father. And the Holy Father was wonderfully warm and gracious, as I'm sure he was to the other presidents with whom he met.
But he took principled stands, the Holy Father did, many of them straight at right-wing Republicans. He spoke of -- and I'm quoting the Holy Father here -- "savage, unbridled capitalism." He came to America, to Missouri. I was there. And he said this -- and I'm quoting him -- "I appeal to the people of the United States to end the death penalty, which is cruel and unnecessary, even in the case of a person who has done great evil."
And he begged, begged President Bush not to launch this unjust war in Iraq. Wasn't the Holy Father right about all three of those and wasn't George W. Bush wrong?
CHERI JACOBUS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, I think -- I think the important point here is that the Holy Father disagreed with the U.S., different presidents and political parties, on a number of different things. And I don't think that this is an appropriate time.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Who was right? I think the Holy Father was right.
JACOBUS: No, I'm not going to break it down.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: What? No, Bob just asked Vic if he agreed with Novak or Clinton. I'm asking you, do you agree with the Holy Father or President Bush? I agree with the Holy Father. He was right on all three.
JACOBUS: Well, look, I agree with the Catholic Church on a number of things. I agree with the Republican Party, obviously, on a number of things.
What I do think is really wrong and in very poor taste is for former President Clinton to come forward and talk about a legacy, as if this is a political person who was elected to office, you know, the way that he was. And I think it makes a caricature of Bill Clinton and almost a joke, because we know that he's been so obsessed with his own -- quote -- "legacy," his own political legacy.
BEGALA: He was asked. He was asked the question. And he said...
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: No, I think it was...
BEGALA: I'm going to defend my old boss. He was asked a question.
JACOBUS: It was in poor taste. And I think...
BEGALA: Was it poor taste for President Bush to say almost the same thing, when he said, well, he was a man of peace and he didn't like war, but I did?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I wish I had the tape. The guy made a fool of himself talking about the pope's legacy.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: I think some of the things -- I think some of the things that Bill Clinton said were in poor taste. And I think it's a fine line between talking about the works of a man and his life when he was pope or anybody else and going and talking about in political terms the way that he talks about his own political legacy. This is Bill Clinton. That's all he cares about.
BEGALA: Let me get this straight. When Clinton talks about his disagreements with the pope, that's in poor taste. When Mr. Bush talks about his disagreements with the pope, it's keen. It's neato.
JACOBUS: No. No.
BEGALA: It's great. Come on.
NOVAK: All right.
JACOBUS: What I'm talking about is the fact that Bill Clinton is comparing himself in many ways to the pope, saying he's just like all of us with our legacy.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: You know what? The pope was not like Bill Clinton.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: The other subject going on is this attack by the media, by the liberals, by the Democrats, by Paul Begala on the House majority leader, Tom DeLay. And it just -- and leading the attack has been the House Democratic leader, Nancy Pelosi.
And I just want to read you a quote by the chairman of the Appropriations Committee, Jerry Lewis of California, a moderate Republican. And he said: "Nancy has two years to get the majority. She knows this is her only shot." I mean, let's -- let's -- you and I can sometimes be candid. Let's just pretend the micro -- the cameras are not on. Isn't this a -- that's all this is about. This is an attempt to try to get the majority in the House by this campaign of smear and character assassination against Tom DeLay, isn't it?
KAMBER: Tom DeLay has done nothing wrong, you are saying, Bob.
NOVAK: Yes. That's right.
KAMBER: Tom DeLay is this innocent, virtuous thing. And -- and the reason we're leaving Dennis Hastert alone and every other Republican alone is because they are all evil and Tom DeLay is the one guy we're going to knock down. Tom DeLay has done some things that are questionable. He changed the...
NOVAK: Questionable?
KAMBER: He's changed the Ethics Committee's ruling. We can't even have a good, decent Ethics Committee who can investigate this process.
NOVAK: You think -- you think -- you...
KAMBER: I don't know that he's guilty of anything.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Have you done some things that are questionable?
KAMBER: And if there's a committee -- sure, I have. I certainly have.
NOVAK: Well, I don't attack you.
KAMBER: But, Bob, I'm not in the U.S. Congress.
NOVAK: Thank God.
KAMBER: And I -- you are right. You wouldn't like my votes, certainly wouldn't.
There should be an Ethics Committee. They should be able to look at Tom DeLay. They should be able to investigate and come up with a decision. Tom DeLay has changed the rules not to allow that to happen.
BEGALA: Cheri, tell me how particularly religious conservatives, principled people in the Republican Party, an important part of your coalition, are going to view the specter of the House majority leader getting on luxury junkets paid by gambling interests and scum lobbyists. How do you think principled, ethical Christians view that? JACOBUS: Well, I think Republican or Democrat, none of us like scum lobbyists. And I'm sure...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Tom DeLay loves them. He flies all the around the world with them. Ho, ho, ho, he loves them. He's their best friend. He's playing golf with them.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: We'll let you be the guy. Go out there, decide who is scum and who isn't. So you can start...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I will be glad to. Jack Abramoff, he's scum. I'll name his name.
JACOBUS: Is he the only one? You got any on your side? You know, what have you got?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, he's the first. He's the one who is financing DeLay's trips around the world.
JACOBUS: Here's the thing. Here's the thing.
Bottom line, bottom line, Paul, this is a witch-hunt because Tom DeLay is a very effective leader. He's been charged with no crime. The lawyers in -- when you look "The Washington Post" article...
BEGALA: And that's our standard.
JACOBUS: He hasn't broken any laws.
BEGALA: Not in prison. Lead my party.
JACOBUS: He hasn't done anything wrong. So, what you guys are doing, you have got MoveOn.org out there. And you are trying to give the appearance of some big scandal. And even the lawyers said he didn't do anything wrong. There's no there there, Paul, and you guys just don't have anything else to hang your hat on.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, we shall see.
When we come back, the Terri Schiavo memo controversy. Do Republicans owe Democrats an apology? Of course they do. That's the wrong question. The right question is, when will they have the guts to offer it?
And another arthritis painkiller is being pulled off the shelves. "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" will tell us right after the break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, the last will and testament of Pope John Paul II is released, what it tells us about his innermost thoughts.
The arthritis drug Bextra is pulled off the market amid deep concerns about potentially deadly side effects. Will other drugs be next?
And what's it like to be an undercover agent inside a violent biker gang?
All those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Democrats are still trying to play politics with the Terri Schiavo case. And our guests today, Democratic strategist -- strategist Vic Kamber and Republican consultant Cheri Jacobus, president of Capitol Strategies. She's a former deputy communications director for the Republican National Committee.
BEGALA: Cheri, let me show our audience what was in this slimy memo that the Republicans wrote about Terri Schiavo.
As she lay dying, this is what the Republicans were telling their supporters: "The pro-life base will be excited that the Senate is debating this important issue. This is a great political issue and a tough issue for Democrats."
Now, that is as low as it gets, I thought, until I saw that they started blaming Democrats for this. Let me name names. "The Weekly Standard" blamed Democrats, Fred Barnes. I admire "The Weekly Standard" and read it. I like Fred Barnes and read his columns. Senator Robert Bennett of Utah, a decent man, he blamed Democrats as well.
Shouldn't these good people apologize to my party for slandering them?
JACOBUS: Well, a couple of things. I think there have been apologies that have gone throughout the day that I've seen from various groups.
BEGALA: Who has apologized? Mel Martinez took responsibility. He's a stand-up guy. I admire him, but...
JACOBUS: Well, here's the thing. First of all, you can't really call that a GOP memo, when it was one staffer who gave it to his senator boss. I think that the apologies have come. And I think when you start demanding...
BEGALA: From whom? Name one.
JACOBUS: I have seen them from the conservative end and on some of the blogs. And I think you'll see more of them, Paul.
But let's not take this too far. The news reports and what the Democrats were saying and the reason -- one reason, I think, that a lot of people thought it could be the Democrats is because of Rather- gate and that memo.
BEGALA: Democrats didn't do that.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: You know, that there were Democrat operatives and the fact that, you know, this is the week that we see Sandy Berger, Clinton's former NSC chairman, pleading guilty to stuffing documents down his pants.
BEGALA: Did somebody say Sandy Berger?
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: But my point being is, this was a Republican staffer, a freshman senator. And it was sent to a Democrat senator, not Republicans and not by Republican aides.
NOVAK: This whole thing is so silly that Paul is doing. I'm not even going to dignify it by commenting on it.
But there was a very interesting editorial in today's "Washington Post," not a great defender of the Bush administration. It's about the selection of a president of the Republic of Iraq. It said: "Iraqis once again have defied their skeptics and taken an important step towards stabilizing their country under representative government."
Do you cheer the good news from Iraq? Or do you say, damn it, it's another good thing for Bush?
KAMBER: No, Bob, it's wonderful. And forget Bush. It's wonderful for Iraq and it's wonderful for the Iraqi people. It's a shame it's three months after an election that it's taken. It's a shame that we're still in Iraq.
NOVAK: Shame?
KAMBER: It's a shame that we're still in Iraq losing lives. And the administration is bragging, gee, it's less lives now than it was three months ago. We're still losing lives.
NOVAK: All right.
KAMBER: We're still having people injured.
NOVAK: I would like to answer you, but we're out of time.
Vic Kamber, thank you very much.
KAMBER: My pleasure, Bob.
NOVAK: Cheri Jacobus, thank you.
Vice President Dick Cheney talked to reporters last night about his plans for 2008. I'll show you what he said right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Vice President Dick Cheney isn't exactly known for his funny side, but he trotted it out pretty successfully last night. Cheney subbed for President Bush at the annual Radio and TV Correspondents Dinner in Washington, declaring that he does not plan to run for president in '08. Or does he?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY: I'm certain the Republican Party will do just fine in that election. We have a lot of terrific candidates out there. And just to prove my confidence in the field, I have agreed to lead the search committee to pick the next nominee.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: In case you forgot, Cheney headed George Bush's vice presidential search committee. And he searched so hard, he found himself.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: I do hope the vice president will reconsider. I want Dick Cheney to run for president, because, well, three words: President Hillary Clinton. Dick Cheney runs, Hillary wins. Run, Dick, run.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: I would -- I hope -- I agree with you. I'd like to see him run, because I would like to see Dick Cheney president. I think he would be a great president of the United States.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Let's have him run against Hillary. Wouldn't you like to see Cheney run against Hillary?
NOVAK: He would beat her, too. BEGALA: You would bet on Cheney?
NOVAK: Yes.
BEGALA: I would bet on Hillary. I would be a happier man.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: From the left, I am Paul Begala.
We remind you that CNN's live coverage of the funeral for Pope John Paul II begins at 3:00 a.m. Eastern Friday. That's 3:00 a.m. Brew the coffee. It will be worth watching.
That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: I'll see you in front of the TV set.
BEGALA: I will be there.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
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Aired April 7, 2005 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak.
In the CROSSFIRE: A Republican senator comes clean about a controversial Capitol Hill memo on the Terri Schiavo case. He says the buck stops at his office. Will there be a political price to pay?
As the funeral mass for Pope John Paul II approaches, a former president predicts a mixed legacy for the late pontiff. Is he right on or out of line?
We know it and Vice President Dick Cheney knows it.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm not into funny.
(LAUGHTER)
ANNOUNCER: So why are so many people laughing? Could it be Mr. Cheney's plan for 2008?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.
(APPLAUSE)
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Hello, everybody. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
Remember that memo in which Republicans in Congress said the tragedy of Terri Schiavo was a political plus for their party? It was so repugnant that some right-wingers even alleged that it might be a forgery planted by dastardly Democrat or perhaps the media. Well, today, we learned the memo was written by a senior Republican aide on Capitol Hill. And a lot of my conservative friends have a lot of egg on their faces.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Some guy in one senator's office who nobody ever heard of suddenly becomes a senior Republican aide. And he was fired yesterday, as soon as his boss found out he was the culprit. The Democrats must be hard up for issues. Maybe they are worried about losing the Catholic vote to the Republicans and about the good news now from political stabilization in Iraq.
We'll be all over the map with these issues, but, first, the best little political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
Bill Clinton flying to Rome aboard Air Force One said Pope John Paul II had a mixed legacy. What was mixed about it, Bubba? Well, Clinton gave the pope credit for defeating communism, but was unhappy with what he called a very conservative theological doctrine. He said -- quote -- "The number of Catholics increased by 250 million on his watch, but the number of priests didn't. He's like all of us. He may have a mixed legacy" -- unquote.
I guess Bill Clinton claims a mixed legacy himself, disgracing the presidency, but also creating a bubble economy. He did credit the pope for being consistently pro-life, against abortion and against capital punishment, while President Clinton was consistently pro- death, for abortion and the death penalty.
BEGALA: Let's talk about pro-death. The great apostle of the culture of death in America is George W. Bush. He executed Karla Faye Tucker. He executed great-grandmothers. The Holy Father begged him not to. He killed them anyway. Holy Father begged him not to go to war in Iraq. He did so anyway.
This president has been about the culture of death from the beginning to end. I prayed every day that he would listen to John Paul.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I continue to pray that he will listen to the leadership of John Paul, even after his death.
NOVAK: I thought I was talking about Bubba and not W., because...
BEGALA: I'm contrasting them.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: I thought I was saying that he was pro-death, because he was for abortion and the death penalty, your boss was.
BEGALA: And George W. Bush is for the war and for killing great- grandmothers and the retarded.
Thanks, George.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, anyway, speaking of our president, the 14th Amendment to the Constitution is clear. It says -- quote -- "The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions, shall not be questioned" -- unquote.
So, why was President Bush questioning the public debt issued to support pensions, in this case, Social Security? Here's our president in West Virginia this week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The office here in Parkersburg stores those IOUs. They're stacked in a filing cabinet. Imagine, the retirement security for future generations is sitting in a filing cabinet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: President Bill Clinton built an enormous surplus in the Social Security trust fund, a surplus that's invested in U.S. Treasury bonds, bonds which Mr. Bush now questions.
President Bush's attack on the bonds may well be a violation of the 14th Amendment. And it is a sad day when the president of the United States of America has such contempt for the Social Security trust fund and even the Constitution.
NOVAK: You know, you know, Paul, you have exceeded yourself in silliness today.
Two points. No. 1, those IOUs are not Treasury bonds. They are not negotiable.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: A Treasury bond has to be negotiable. That isn't.
Secondly, the 14th Amendment, you take out of context. This is to say that we could not pay off slaveholders in the South. Boy, oh boy, somebody has given you a real load of bull, my friend.
BEGALA: We should have -- we'll have a longer discussion about this when we continue. Go ahead, Bob.
NOVAK: The National Urban League, a prestigious African-American organization, held a reception in Washington last night. Democratic national chairman Howard Dean was not there, but Republican National Chairman Ken Mehlman was. A Dean spokesman says that Dean had a schedule conflict with the Radio and TV Correspondents Dinner.
But Republican Mehlman managed to make both events. Dr. Dean must be undercover. Haven't seen him on national TV since he became chairman, have you? He's dodging debates with Mehlman. It doesn't bother his adoring supporters, however. A new Pew Research survey disclosed, more than four out of five Dean activists call themselves liberals, compared to only 27 percent of all Democrats.
The world's oldest political party has got some leader, Paul. BEGALA: Well, actually, one former leader of the Republican Party once said 99 percent of politics is showing up. Good for Ken Mehlman for showing up.
It reminds me, though, that, when George W. Bush was governor of my state of Texas, he refused to show up for the funeral of James Byrd, a man who was lynched in his state of Texas. Political Republican leaders like Kay Bailey Hutchison, our senator, was there. Our governor refused to attend that funeral. Good for him for going to the pope's funeral. Bad for him not going to the funeral of James Byrd, one of his citizens, who was lynched in his own state.
NOVAK: I was talking...
BEGALA: That's more important than an Urban League political dinner, Bob.
NOVAK: I was talking about Howard Dean. How is it everything I say, you answer with an attack on George W. Bush?
BEGALA: Because I don't like him.
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: The president of the United States?
BEGALA: I don't like him.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, all right, just to support Bob, I'll get off of President Bush for a moment and get on to an unusual target.
Arkansas State University Mountain Home advertises itself as a school where students can develop what are called -- quote -- "critical thinking skills" -- unquote. So, why are they censoring a speaker? David Corn of "The Nation" is one of the most brilliant and progressive journalists of our time. He's also a fine speaker, as Fox News recognized when they hired him as an analyst.
When Mr. Corn was asked to speak at Arkansas State University Mountain Home, at a greatly reduced fee, I might add, he agreed. And then some weasel named Mick Spaulding, the vice chancellor for development, disinvited Mr. Corn. David was told he was dumped because his Web site, www.DavidCorn.com, advertised T-shirts with slogans like: "Don't blame me. I voted for Kerry."
Pretty tame stuff compared to Dick "Potty Mouth" Cheney, but apparently enough to get booted from Arkansas State University Mountain Home. You know, it's a school that doesn't get mentioned on CNN very often. And it's too bad the only time it does is to expose its censorship and close-mindedness. Incidentally, Mr. Spaulding's e- mail is MSpaulding@asumh.edu, MSpaulding@ -- well, you got it on the screen. Whatever. NOVAK: I would recommend to Mr. Spaulding that he reinvite Mr. Corn. I think everybody should...
BEGALA: Good for you.
NOVAK: These students should hear all points of view. But that...
(BELL RINGING)
NOVAK: The real problem with the universities, Paul, is that they don't invite conservatives. They have only left-wing speakers on campuses like Berkeley and Harvard. They don't let people like me tell them what the truth is about America.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: Well, they should have you. They should.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: I have seen you speak a dozen times, two dozen times. You are great. They ought to have Novak and they ought to have David Corn.
NOVAK: And Paul Begala.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: The death of Pope John Paul II has dominated the news this week. But politicians are still having plenty of news. Next, the two worlds come together as former President Bill Clinton makes inappropriate comments about the pope that are triggering debate.
And, later, Vice President Dick Cheney, Mr. Comedian, talks about what he has planned for 2008.
(APPLAUSE)
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to CROSSFIRE at the George Washington University, call 202-994-8CNN or visit our Web site. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Now that the mystery of the controversial Capitol Hill memo regarding Terri Schiavo has been solved, will Republicans apologize for politicizing the tragedy and then trying to pin their sleazy memo on the Democrats? At the same time, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay is under siege. And a new poll shows President Bush in a little bit of trouble. Lots to talk about today and two good folks to talk about it with us. Joining us today in the CROSSFIRE, Jacobus -- she is a Republican consultant and former deputy communications director for the mighty Republican National Committee -- and Democratic strategist, a mighty man himself, Vic Kamber.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Mr. Kamber, they -- one of the unfortunate aspects of this -- of the pope's death, is, they let Bill Clinton out in public to talk to reporters. He was on Air Force One to Italy. And he had a lot to say about the pope, all of it stupid.
But listen to what -- I will just read you this one thing. He said: "There will be debates about him," that is, the pope, "but, on balance, he was a man of God. He was a consistent person. He did what he thought was right. That's about all you can ask of anybody" -- end quote. In other words, you know, he was a mediocre guy, but he tried. This was one of the great figures in history.
Who do you agree with, me or Bill Clinton?
VIC KAMBER, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, I don't agree with the way you read it. And I certainly don't agree with taking it out of context.
There's no question Bill Clinton admired and respected him. He questioned some. I mean, he said it. He said that some of the directions that the pope was overseeing were different than his views.
Listen, I love the pope. I'm a Christian and I'm a Protestant. I happen to not disagree -- I happen to disagree with many of the conservative positions of the Catholic Church, but you can't take away the Godliness or the wonderfulness of this pope.
NOVAK: Well, you don't...
KAMBER: And I don't think Bill Clinton tried to do that either.
NOVAK: I don't think you know anything about theology, Catholic theology, at least.
KAMBER: Be careful, Bob.
NOVAK: But...
KAMBER: Be careful on that. I do.
NOVAK: But I think you know a lot about politics. And let me just show you some figures. We're going to put them up on the board of what is happening with the white Catholic vote in America.
Bob Dole, running against Clinton in 96, got 41 percent. George W. Bush in 2000 got 52 percent; 2004, he got 56 percent. When you have Bill Clinton saying, well, the president -- the pope was wrong on a lot of stuff, but he tried, that figure is going to keep going up, isn't it?
KAMBER: No, no.
What you are looking at on that figure was in -- in the first race was an incumbent. When Dole got 41 percent, he was running against an incumbent. And the incumbent did well. When Bush ran the second time, the incumbent -- he did -- as an incumbent, did four points better. It was a 50/50 race basically the first time, 52-48 percent first time. And it will be that way consistently going forward.
BEGALA: Cheri, unlike Bob, I was actually there on two occasions when President Clinton met with the Holy Father. And the Holy Father was wonderfully warm and gracious, as I'm sure he was to the other presidents with whom he met.
But he took principled stands, the Holy Father did, many of them straight at right-wing Republicans. He spoke of -- and I'm quoting the Holy Father here -- "savage, unbridled capitalism." He came to America, to Missouri. I was there. And he said this -- and I'm quoting him -- "I appeal to the people of the United States to end the death penalty, which is cruel and unnecessary, even in the case of a person who has done great evil."
And he begged, begged President Bush not to launch this unjust war in Iraq. Wasn't the Holy Father right about all three of those and wasn't George W. Bush wrong?
CHERI JACOBUS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, I think -- I think the important point here is that the Holy Father disagreed with the U.S., different presidents and political parties, on a number of different things. And I don't think that this is an appropriate time.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Who was right? I think the Holy Father was right.
JACOBUS: No, I'm not going to break it down.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: What? No, Bob just asked Vic if he agreed with Novak or Clinton. I'm asking you, do you agree with the Holy Father or President Bush? I agree with the Holy Father. He was right on all three.
JACOBUS: Well, look, I agree with the Catholic Church on a number of things. I agree with the Republican Party, obviously, on a number of things.
What I do think is really wrong and in very poor taste is for former President Clinton to come forward and talk about a legacy, as if this is a political person who was elected to office, you know, the way that he was. And I think it makes a caricature of Bill Clinton and almost a joke, because we know that he's been so obsessed with his own -- quote -- "legacy," his own political legacy.
BEGALA: He was asked. He was asked the question. And he said...
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: No, I think it was...
BEGALA: I'm going to defend my old boss. He was asked a question.
JACOBUS: It was in poor taste. And I think...
BEGALA: Was it poor taste for President Bush to say almost the same thing, when he said, well, he was a man of peace and he didn't like war, but I did?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I wish I had the tape. The guy made a fool of himself talking about the pope's legacy.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: I think some of the things -- I think some of the things that Bill Clinton said were in poor taste. And I think it's a fine line between talking about the works of a man and his life when he was pope or anybody else and going and talking about in political terms the way that he talks about his own political legacy. This is Bill Clinton. That's all he cares about.
BEGALA: Let me get this straight. When Clinton talks about his disagreements with the pope, that's in poor taste. When Mr. Bush talks about his disagreements with the pope, it's keen. It's neato.
JACOBUS: No. No.
BEGALA: It's great. Come on.
NOVAK: All right.
JACOBUS: What I'm talking about is the fact that Bill Clinton is comparing himself in many ways to the pope, saying he's just like all of us with our legacy.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: You know what? The pope was not like Bill Clinton.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: The other subject going on is this attack by the media, by the liberals, by the Democrats, by Paul Begala on the House majority leader, Tom DeLay. And it just -- and leading the attack has been the House Democratic leader, Nancy Pelosi.
And I just want to read you a quote by the chairman of the Appropriations Committee, Jerry Lewis of California, a moderate Republican. And he said: "Nancy has two years to get the majority. She knows this is her only shot." I mean, let's -- let's -- you and I can sometimes be candid. Let's just pretend the micro -- the cameras are not on. Isn't this a -- that's all this is about. This is an attempt to try to get the majority in the House by this campaign of smear and character assassination against Tom DeLay, isn't it?
KAMBER: Tom DeLay has done nothing wrong, you are saying, Bob.
NOVAK: Yes. That's right.
KAMBER: Tom DeLay is this innocent, virtuous thing. And -- and the reason we're leaving Dennis Hastert alone and every other Republican alone is because they are all evil and Tom DeLay is the one guy we're going to knock down. Tom DeLay has done some things that are questionable. He changed the...
NOVAK: Questionable?
KAMBER: He's changed the Ethics Committee's ruling. We can't even have a good, decent Ethics Committee who can investigate this process.
NOVAK: You think -- you think -- you...
KAMBER: I don't know that he's guilty of anything.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Have you done some things that are questionable?
KAMBER: And if there's a committee -- sure, I have. I certainly have.
NOVAK: Well, I don't attack you.
KAMBER: But, Bob, I'm not in the U.S. Congress.
NOVAK: Thank God.
KAMBER: And I -- you are right. You wouldn't like my votes, certainly wouldn't.
There should be an Ethics Committee. They should be able to look at Tom DeLay. They should be able to investigate and come up with a decision. Tom DeLay has changed the rules not to allow that to happen.
BEGALA: Cheri, tell me how particularly religious conservatives, principled people in the Republican Party, an important part of your coalition, are going to view the specter of the House majority leader getting on luxury junkets paid by gambling interests and scum lobbyists. How do you think principled, ethical Christians view that? JACOBUS: Well, I think Republican or Democrat, none of us like scum lobbyists. And I'm sure...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Tom DeLay loves them. He flies all the around the world with them. Ho, ho, ho, he loves them. He's their best friend. He's playing golf with them.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: We'll let you be the guy. Go out there, decide who is scum and who isn't. So you can start...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I will be glad to. Jack Abramoff, he's scum. I'll name his name.
JACOBUS: Is he the only one? You got any on your side? You know, what have you got?
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, he's the first. He's the one who is financing DeLay's trips around the world.
JACOBUS: Here's the thing. Here's the thing.
Bottom line, bottom line, Paul, this is a witch-hunt because Tom DeLay is a very effective leader. He's been charged with no crime. The lawyers in -- when you look "The Washington Post" article...
BEGALA: And that's our standard.
JACOBUS: He hasn't broken any laws.
BEGALA: Not in prison. Lead my party.
JACOBUS: He hasn't done anything wrong. So, what you guys are doing, you have got MoveOn.org out there. And you are trying to give the appearance of some big scandal. And even the lawyers said he didn't do anything wrong. There's no there there, Paul, and you guys just don't have anything else to hang your hat on.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Well, we shall see.
When we come back, the Terri Schiavo memo controversy. Do Republicans owe Democrats an apology? Of course they do. That's the wrong question. The right question is, when will they have the guts to offer it?
And another arthritis painkiller is being pulled off the shelves. "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" will tell us right after the break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, the last will and testament of Pope John Paul II is released, what it tells us about his innermost thoughts.
The arthritis drug Bextra is pulled off the market amid deep concerns about potentially deadly side effects. Will other drugs be next?
And what's it like to be an undercover agent inside a violent biker gang?
All those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
Democrats are still trying to play politics with the Terri Schiavo case. And our guests today, Democratic strategist -- strategist Vic Kamber and Republican consultant Cheri Jacobus, president of Capitol Strategies. She's a former deputy communications director for the Republican National Committee.
BEGALA: Cheri, let me show our audience what was in this slimy memo that the Republicans wrote about Terri Schiavo.
As she lay dying, this is what the Republicans were telling their supporters: "The pro-life base will be excited that the Senate is debating this important issue. This is a great political issue and a tough issue for Democrats."
Now, that is as low as it gets, I thought, until I saw that they started blaming Democrats for this. Let me name names. "The Weekly Standard" blamed Democrats, Fred Barnes. I admire "The Weekly Standard" and read it. I like Fred Barnes and read his columns. Senator Robert Bennett of Utah, a decent man, he blamed Democrats as well.
Shouldn't these good people apologize to my party for slandering them?
JACOBUS: Well, a couple of things. I think there have been apologies that have gone throughout the day that I've seen from various groups.
BEGALA: Who has apologized? Mel Martinez took responsibility. He's a stand-up guy. I admire him, but...
JACOBUS: Well, here's the thing. First of all, you can't really call that a GOP memo, when it was one staffer who gave it to his senator boss. I think that the apologies have come. And I think when you start demanding...
BEGALA: From whom? Name one.
JACOBUS: I have seen them from the conservative end and on some of the blogs. And I think you'll see more of them, Paul.
But let's not take this too far. The news reports and what the Democrats were saying and the reason -- one reason, I think, that a lot of people thought it could be the Democrats is because of Rather- gate and that memo.
BEGALA: Democrats didn't do that.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: You know, that there were Democrat operatives and the fact that, you know, this is the week that we see Sandy Berger, Clinton's former NSC chairman, pleading guilty to stuffing documents down his pants.
BEGALA: Did somebody say Sandy Berger?
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: But my point being is, this was a Republican staffer, a freshman senator. And it was sent to a Democrat senator, not Republicans and not by Republican aides.
NOVAK: This whole thing is so silly that Paul is doing. I'm not even going to dignify it by commenting on it.
But there was a very interesting editorial in today's "Washington Post," not a great defender of the Bush administration. It's about the selection of a president of the Republic of Iraq. It said: "Iraqis once again have defied their skeptics and taken an important step towards stabilizing their country under representative government."
Do you cheer the good news from Iraq? Or do you say, damn it, it's another good thing for Bush?
KAMBER: No, Bob, it's wonderful. And forget Bush. It's wonderful for Iraq and it's wonderful for the Iraqi people. It's a shame it's three months after an election that it's taken. It's a shame that we're still in Iraq.
NOVAK: Shame?
KAMBER: It's a shame that we're still in Iraq losing lives. And the administration is bragging, gee, it's less lives now than it was three months ago. We're still losing lives.
NOVAK: All right.
KAMBER: We're still having people injured.
NOVAK: I would like to answer you, but we're out of time.
Vic Kamber, thank you very much.
KAMBER: My pleasure, Bob.
NOVAK: Cheri Jacobus, thank you.
Vice President Dick Cheney talked to reporters last night about his plans for 2008. I'll show you what he said right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Vice President Dick Cheney isn't exactly known for his funny side, but he trotted it out pretty successfully last night. Cheney subbed for President Bush at the annual Radio and TV Correspondents Dinner in Washington, declaring that he does not plan to run for president in '08. Or does he?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY: I'm certain the Republican Party will do just fine in that election. We have a lot of terrific candidates out there. And just to prove my confidence in the field, I have agreed to lead the search committee to pick the next nominee.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: In case you forgot, Cheney headed George Bush's vice presidential search committee. And he searched so hard, he found himself.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: I do hope the vice president will reconsider. I want Dick Cheney to run for president, because, well, three words: President Hillary Clinton. Dick Cheney runs, Hillary wins. Run, Dick, run.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: I would -- I hope -- I agree with you. I'd like to see him run, because I would like to see Dick Cheney president. I think he would be a great president of the United States.
(APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: Let's have him run against Hillary. Wouldn't you like to see Cheney run against Hillary?
NOVAK: He would beat her, too. BEGALA: You would bet on Cheney?
NOVAK: Yes.
BEGALA: I would bet on Hillary. I would be a happier man.
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: From the left, I am Paul Begala.
We remind you that CNN's live coverage of the funeral for Pope John Paul II begins at 3:00 a.m. Eastern Friday. That's 3:00 a.m. Brew the coffee. It will be worth watching.
That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: I'll see you in front of the TV set.
BEGALA: I will be there.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
"WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" starts right now.
(APPLAUSE)
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