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CNN Crossfire

Discussion of Bolton Hearing; Congressman DeLay's Troubles Analyzed

Aired April 13, 2005 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left Paula Begala, on the right Robert Novak.

In the CROSSFIRE: in the halls of Congress today arguments over ethics, embattled House Majority Leader Tom DeLay wants Republicans to blame Democrats if they are asked about his problems. Is the ethics issue putting this leader in limbo?

And on the other side of the Capitol, Democrats are blasting Senate Republicans on the fight over the filibuster.

SEN. HARRY REID (D) NEVADA, MINORITY LEADER: This is arrogance and abuse of power. If the Republicans don't like the rules, change them.

ANNOUNCER: Republicans say the Democrats are abusing the rules to keep the president's judicial choices off the federal bench. Can both sides come to terms, or will the Senate go nuclear over the issue?

Today on CROSSFIRE. Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERT NOVAK, CROSSFIRE CO-HOST: Welcome to the CROSSFIRE.

How can you get any work done with vicious Democrats nipping at your heels? That's what faces House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, attacked for doing the same things his colleagues, both Republicans and Democrats, love to do. The Texas Congressman asks Senate Republicans to support him while he deals with the politics of personal destruction.

PAUL BEGALA, CROSSFIRE CO-HOST: Looking every inch a man in deep trouble, Mr. DeLay went hat in hand to those senators today and begged them to please try to blame the Democrats if the media asks about Mr. DeLay's ethics mess and whether it is keeping Congress from doing its job. But even Mr. DeLay's allies are beginning to say it's high time he came clean.

But, of course, asking Tom DeLay to come clean is like asking a pig to sing opera. It's just not going to happen.

Before we get to the -- here's the best little political briefing in television. The CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

NOVAK: Democrats practicing the politics of personal destruction, have another way to continue their poisonous art. The Senate Foreign Relations Committee delayed for a week voting on confirmation of John Bolton as U.S. ambassador to the United Nations.

Democrats want to question more State Department career officials who don't like Undersecretary of State Bolton. They really need more time to pressure liberal Republican Senator Lincoln Chafee -- not even the Democrats question Bolton's competency or integrity. His critics admit they don't like his personality. But what they really hate is his conservativism. And that's no reason to deny a confirmation.

BEGALA: No. I don't think that's why. Obviously, they don't support conservative ideas, but then they'd be against every Bush nominee, and they're not. They just confirmed Condoleezza Rice, outrageously.

The problem is there was testimony under oath from a conservative Republican high official in the State Department that Mr. Bolton bullied intelligence analysts to try to get the political result he wanted.

Now, how can he then go to the U.N. and report to the world on intelligence when we believe he has bullied intelligence analysts at the State Department.

NOVAK: The man who testified was not a conservative Republican. He was a person who gave political contributions, if you look it up, to Jane Harman and Charlie Rangel. I know him. He's an -- a career hack from Congress. So, you got your facts wrong as usual.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: Well, we'll debate that later when our guests come out. There is a reason, though, why my old friend Bob Casey Jr. is leading Pennsylvania Republican Senator Rick Santorum in the polls. Its is the hypocrisy stupid.

"Philadelphia Daily News'" intrepid columnist John Bear reported this week that Mr. Santorum, who piously appeared -- without invitation I may add -- at the hospice of Terri Schiavo, was secretly raising special interest campaign cash on the same trip.

In fact, Bear reports Santorum flew to Florida on a private luxury jet owned by Wal-Mart and then shook down special interests for a cool quarter of a million dollars. Pennsylvania Democrats today called on Santorum to give the money back.

With all due respect to my fellow Democrats, I have a better idea. Instead of returning the money to the fat cat lobbyists and the special interests he took it from, Santorum ought to give it to hospice care to help other families like the Schiavos who are going to be hurt by the cuts in Medicaid supported by none other than Slick Rick Santorum.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: You know -- you ran -- you ran Bob Casey's campaign before. And so you're a part of the whole Casey thing. Rick -- Mr. Casey has promised that he will continue to oppose President Bush's judges if he is -- yes, he has. He said he would oppose all those judges even though -- he is some pro-lifer if he was going to owe pros pro-life judges.

BEGALA: I talk to Bob a lot. He is a close friend. He has said he will take each judge on the merits. He has not pledged to oppose all judges

NOVAK: Well, as their spokesman said...

BEGALA: Spokesman -- I talked to Bob myself.

NOVAK: Can't Democrats learn anything? Once again in the House today Democrats followed teachings of Karl Marx in opposing efforts to make permanent the repeal of the estate tax, the death tax. Death tax makes it impossible for Americans to pass their wealth on to their children. The Democratic leaders argue that only rich people have to pay the ruinous tax.

Could it be that the Democratic Party has become the minority party in America because it wages a war against wealth in a country where ordinary citizens can become rich? The bill will pass the House today with a good chance to escape a Democratic filibuster in the Senate this year. And that will be a bad time for Karl Marx and the Democrats.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: This is at a time when our soldiers need more armor, when the budget is out of balance, Republicans want to give a tax cut to Paris Hilton. E.J. Dionne of "The Washington Post" points out that Paris Hilton is the person who benefits from this. People who don't work for their money.

If you work for your wealth, good for you. But if you just sit on your rear end, your lazy butt and inherit it, Republicans, you are their kind of guy. That's who they love. I prefer people who work.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: That is the height of demagoguery, Paul to say -- you are on the way -- to say that this deprives armor from the troops in the field. You know that very well that there is no correlation, the troops get all the support they need.

BEGALA: I wish that they did.

Anyway, the Center for American Progress has done it again. In the Center's newsletter called "The Progress Report," which I highly recommend to you at AmericanProgress.org, they note that the military appropriations bill passing in the Senate includes provisions, get this, on baseball stadiums -- not exactly the front lines of our national defense -- and restoring Mississippi's mineral rights, whatever that is.

So what? You might ask. Every big bill has its share of pork. And it's true. But what is astonishing about this military appropriations bill is what is not in it: $2 billion for additional veteran's healthcare funding. Republicans in the Senate have defeated an attempt by Washington Democrat Patty Murray to add the badly-need funding. Well God bless the Senate Democrats led by Harry Reid for trying to care for our veterans. But Republicans have a different approach.

They can find billions for Halliburton and trillions for tax cuts for the rich, even Paris Hilton at that, but they can't find enough money to treat our sick or wounded veterans. It's not fair. It's Republican.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: You know very well, Paul, that I'm against pork barrel spending. I've been very strongly against all kinds of pork barrel spending -- much of which is Democratic.

But also, the scam that Patty Murray and these people do is they vote against weapons and military budgets. You know they do, they have a long record of voting against the military and then they come out with these proposals for veterans just to get the political credit for it. There's plenty of money for the veterans. They don't need an amendment.

BEGALA: Well, there's an awful lot of veterans who think we need more money for medical care, but...

NOVAK: OK.

With all the talk of Republicans backing away from Tom DeLay, President Bush had breakfast with him this morning, a day after the House majority leader had lunch with Senate Republicans. And Tom DeLay sat down with reporters on the Hill this afternoon -- not the image of a man running from trouble.

Today, in the CROSSFIRE, two members of Congress join us from Capitol Hill. Charlie Rangel, Democrat from New York, and Dana Rohrbacher, a Republican from California.

BEGALA: Gentleman, it's good to see you again. Thank you for joining us. Taking time -- I know you've got votes on the Hill.

Congressman Rohrbacher, if I may start with you, I don't support much of what Newt Gingrich stands for, but he had some interesting comments. First off, I'll say he's a brilliant man. Your party would never have swept into power in 1994 without Speaker Gingrich's leadership. But here's what he says about your current Tom DeLay.

He said, "Mr. DeLay and his associates have to get everything out in the open. They've got to understand this is not something where fighting a delaying tactic does anything except to hurt his case."

Why won't Tom DeLay sit down under oath and disclose all of his sleazy ethical dealings?

REP. DANA ROHRBACHER, (R) CALIFORNIA: Well, first of all, let us note that Newt Gingrich knows exactly what the Democratic strategy is when you have an effective leader. They go after them in a very political and very personal way. Newt Gingrich was charged with 84 counts of tax -- totally unwarranted attacks against him in order to tie his hands when he was speaker. Now they are trying to do the same thing to Tom DeLay.

Of that 84, 83 of them were just dropped outright, and only one, which is whether he should have taught a class at a university and declared it an educational rather than a political function was the only thing that there was any question about.

Now, the Democrats know they don't have any agenda other than their left-wing agenda and they have to attack Tom DeLay personally.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Congressman Rangel, I would like you to listen something one of your colleagues, Todd Tiahrt, a Republican from Kansas, said the other day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TODD TIAHRT, (R) KANSAS: Tom DeLay did nothing wrong. There's no evidence of any breaking of the House rules, no evidence of breaking any of the laws of this land, or of the laws of Texas. There is no evidence.

What this is, is a political smear campaign made by an organization, a political party, that is void of ideas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Congressman Rangel, can you give us any idea of breaking of House rules? Breaking of national laws? Breaking of the laws of Texas? One example of Congressman DeLay doing any of those things?

REP. CHARLES RANGEL, (D) NEW YORK: You know, God forbid if these allegations were ever made against me in anything. And I would be saying, prove it. You know, if someone has done this to your reputation, you wouldn't say prove it, you don't have proof. The truth of the matter is, whether you're Democrat or Republican, we hold ourselves to a higher standard, at least we should, than the general public. And I don't really think you have to be indicted to say that you don't have an obligation to come forward, and not just attack those people who made the allegations, but to show that you have done nothing wrong.

You know, this isn't just a cancer in the side of the Republicans in the House, because most of them, the majority, they really don't care. They are not sensitive to accusations. But, it's a really a charge against the entire Congress, if not the government. So I don't care whether you are a Democrat or Republican, when these very serious accusations are made, you don't attack the accuser, you just prove, as Dana said, if the majority whip was as forthcoming as Dana is, then he would be convincing.

TIAHRT: He's the majority leader now, Charlie.

BEGALA: We are going to have to take a break. I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr. Novak, but Congressman Rangel, Congressman Tiahrt, keep your seat.

When we come back we'll ask our guests more about the continuing ethics controversy surrounding Tom DeLay. We may even get to the potential of nuclear war on Capitol Hill. Nuclear war of a metaphorical sort that is. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(INTERRUPTED BY LIVE EVENT)

END

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired April 13, 2005 - 16:30:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left Paula Begala, on the right Robert Novak.

In the CROSSFIRE: in the halls of Congress today arguments over ethics, embattled House Majority Leader Tom DeLay wants Republicans to blame Democrats if they are asked about his problems. Is the ethics issue putting this leader in limbo?

And on the other side of the Capitol, Democrats are blasting Senate Republicans on the fight over the filibuster.

SEN. HARRY REID (D) NEVADA, MINORITY LEADER: This is arrogance and abuse of power. If the Republicans don't like the rules, change them.

ANNOUNCER: Republicans say the Democrats are abusing the rules to keep the president's judicial choices off the federal bench. Can both sides come to terms, or will the Senate go nuclear over the issue?

Today on CROSSFIRE. Live from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERT NOVAK, CROSSFIRE CO-HOST: Welcome to the CROSSFIRE.

How can you get any work done with vicious Democrats nipping at your heels? That's what faces House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, attacked for doing the same things his colleagues, both Republicans and Democrats, love to do. The Texas Congressman asks Senate Republicans to support him while he deals with the politics of personal destruction.

PAUL BEGALA, CROSSFIRE CO-HOST: Looking every inch a man in deep trouble, Mr. DeLay went hat in hand to those senators today and begged them to please try to blame the Democrats if the media asks about Mr. DeLay's ethics mess and whether it is keeping Congress from doing its job. But even Mr. DeLay's allies are beginning to say it's high time he came clean.

But, of course, asking Tom DeLay to come clean is like asking a pig to sing opera. It's just not going to happen.

Before we get to the -- here's the best little political briefing in television. The CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

NOVAK: Democrats practicing the politics of personal destruction, have another way to continue their poisonous art. The Senate Foreign Relations Committee delayed for a week voting on confirmation of John Bolton as U.S. ambassador to the United Nations.

Democrats want to question more State Department career officials who don't like Undersecretary of State Bolton. They really need more time to pressure liberal Republican Senator Lincoln Chafee -- not even the Democrats question Bolton's competency or integrity. His critics admit they don't like his personality. But what they really hate is his conservativism. And that's no reason to deny a confirmation.

BEGALA: No. I don't think that's why. Obviously, they don't support conservative ideas, but then they'd be against every Bush nominee, and they're not. They just confirmed Condoleezza Rice, outrageously.

The problem is there was testimony under oath from a conservative Republican high official in the State Department that Mr. Bolton bullied intelligence analysts to try to get the political result he wanted.

Now, how can he then go to the U.N. and report to the world on intelligence when we believe he has bullied intelligence analysts at the State Department.

NOVAK: The man who testified was not a conservative Republican. He was a person who gave political contributions, if you look it up, to Jane Harman and Charlie Rangel. I know him. He's an -- a career hack from Congress. So, you got your facts wrong as usual.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: Well, we'll debate that later when our guests come out. There is a reason, though, why my old friend Bob Casey Jr. is leading Pennsylvania Republican Senator Rick Santorum in the polls. Its is the hypocrisy stupid.

"Philadelphia Daily News'" intrepid columnist John Bear reported this week that Mr. Santorum, who piously appeared -- without invitation I may add -- at the hospice of Terri Schiavo, was secretly raising special interest campaign cash on the same trip.

In fact, Bear reports Santorum flew to Florida on a private luxury jet owned by Wal-Mart and then shook down special interests for a cool quarter of a million dollars. Pennsylvania Democrats today called on Santorum to give the money back.

With all due respect to my fellow Democrats, I have a better idea. Instead of returning the money to the fat cat lobbyists and the special interests he took it from, Santorum ought to give it to hospice care to help other families like the Schiavos who are going to be hurt by the cuts in Medicaid supported by none other than Slick Rick Santorum.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: You know -- you ran -- you ran Bob Casey's campaign before. And so you're a part of the whole Casey thing. Rick -- Mr. Casey has promised that he will continue to oppose President Bush's judges if he is -- yes, he has. He said he would oppose all those judges even though -- he is some pro-lifer if he was going to owe pros pro-life judges.

BEGALA: I talk to Bob a lot. He is a close friend. He has said he will take each judge on the merits. He has not pledged to oppose all judges

NOVAK: Well, as their spokesman said...

BEGALA: Spokesman -- I talked to Bob myself.

NOVAK: Can't Democrats learn anything? Once again in the House today Democrats followed teachings of Karl Marx in opposing efforts to make permanent the repeal of the estate tax, the death tax. Death tax makes it impossible for Americans to pass their wealth on to their children. The Democratic leaders argue that only rich people have to pay the ruinous tax.

Could it be that the Democratic Party has become the minority party in America because it wages a war against wealth in a country where ordinary citizens can become rich? The bill will pass the House today with a good chance to escape a Democratic filibuster in the Senate this year. And that will be a bad time for Karl Marx and the Democrats.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: This is at a time when our soldiers need more armor, when the budget is out of balance, Republicans want to give a tax cut to Paris Hilton. E.J. Dionne of "The Washington Post" points out that Paris Hilton is the person who benefits from this. People who don't work for their money.

If you work for your wealth, good for you. But if you just sit on your rear end, your lazy butt and inherit it, Republicans, you are their kind of guy. That's who they love. I prefer people who work.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: That is the height of demagoguery, Paul to say -- you are on the way -- to say that this deprives armor from the troops in the field. You know that very well that there is no correlation, the troops get all the support they need.

BEGALA: I wish that they did.

Anyway, the Center for American Progress has done it again. In the Center's newsletter called "The Progress Report," which I highly recommend to you at AmericanProgress.org, they note that the military appropriations bill passing in the Senate includes provisions, get this, on baseball stadiums -- not exactly the front lines of our national defense -- and restoring Mississippi's mineral rights, whatever that is.

So what? You might ask. Every big bill has its share of pork. And it's true. But what is astonishing about this military appropriations bill is what is not in it: $2 billion for additional veteran's healthcare funding. Republicans in the Senate have defeated an attempt by Washington Democrat Patty Murray to add the badly-need funding. Well God bless the Senate Democrats led by Harry Reid for trying to care for our veterans. But Republicans have a different approach.

They can find billions for Halliburton and trillions for tax cuts for the rich, even Paris Hilton at that, but they can't find enough money to treat our sick or wounded veterans. It's not fair. It's Republican.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: You know very well, Paul, that I'm against pork barrel spending. I've been very strongly against all kinds of pork barrel spending -- much of which is Democratic.

But also, the scam that Patty Murray and these people do is they vote against weapons and military budgets. You know they do, they have a long record of voting against the military and then they come out with these proposals for veterans just to get the political credit for it. There's plenty of money for the veterans. They don't need an amendment.

BEGALA: Well, there's an awful lot of veterans who think we need more money for medical care, but...

NOVAK: OK.

With all the talk of Republicans backing away from Tom DeLay, President Bush had breakfast with him this morning, a day after the House majority leader had lunch with Senate Republicans. And Tom DeLay sat down with reporters on the Hill this afternoon -- not the image of a man running from trouble.

Today, in the CROSSFIRE, two members of Congress join us from Capitol Hill. Charlie Rangel, Democrat from New York, and Dana Rohrbacher, a Republican from California.

BEGALA: Gentleman, it's good to see you again. Thank you for joining us. Taking time -- I know you've got votes on the Hill.

Congressman Rohrbacher, if I may start with you, I don't support much of what Newt Gingrich stands for, but he had some interesting comments. First off, I'll say he's a brilliant man. Your party would never have swept into power in 1994 without Speaker Gingrich's leadership. But here's what he says about your current Tom DeLay.

He said, "Mr. DeLay and his associates have to get everything out in the open. They've got to understand this is not something where fighting a delaying tactic does anything except to hurt his case."

Why won't Tom DeLay sit down under oath and disclose all of his sleazy ethical dealings?

REP. DANA ROHRBACHER, (R) CALIFORNIA: Well, first of all, let us note that Newt Gingrich knows exactly what the Democratic strategy is when you have an effective leader. They go after them in a very political and very personal way. Newt Gingrich was charged with 84 counts of tax -- totally unwarranted attacks against him in order to tie his hands when he was speaker. Now they are trying to do the same thing to Tom DeLay.

Of that 84, 83 of them were just dropped outright, and only one, which is whether he should have taught a class at a university and declared it an educational rather than a political function was the only thing that there was any question about.

Now, the Democrats know they don't have any agenda other than their left-wing agenda and they have to attack Tom DeLay personally.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Congressman Rangel, I would like you to listen something one of your colleagues, Todd Tiahrt, a Republican from Kansas, said the other day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TODD TIAHRT, (R) KANSAS: Tom DeLay did nothing wrong. There's no evidence of any breaking of the House rules, no evidence of breaking any of the laws of this land, or of the laws of Texas. There is no evidence.

What this is, is a political smear campaign made by an organization, a political party, that is void of ideas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Congressman Rangel, can you give us any idea of breaking of House rules? Breaking of national laws? Breaking of the laws of Texas? One example of Congressman DeLay doing any of those things?

REP. CHARLES RANGEL, (D) NEW YORK: You know, God forbid if these allegations were ever made against me in anything. And I would be saying, prove it. You know, if someone has done this to your reputation, you wouldn't say prove it, you don't have proof. The truth of the matter is, whether you're Democrat or Republican, we hold ourselves to a higher standard, at least we should, than the general public. And I don't really think you have to be indicted to say that you don't have an obligation to come forward, and not just attack those people who made the allegations, but to show that you have done nothing wrong.

You know, this isn't just a cancer in the side of the Republicans in the House, because most of them, the majority, they really don't care. They are not sensitive to accusations. But, it's a really a charge against the entire Congress, if not the government. So I don't care whether you are a Democrat or Republican, when these very serious accusations are made, you don't attack the accuser, you just prove, as Dana said, if the majority whip was as forthcoming as Dana is, then he would be convincing.

TIAHRT: He's the majority leader now, Charlie.

BEGALA: We are going to have to take a break. I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr. Novak, but Congressman Rangel, Congressman Tiahrt, keep your seat.

When we come back we'll ask our guests more about the continuing ethics controversy surrounding Tom DeLay. We may even get to the potential of nuclear war on Capitol Hill. Nuclear war of a metaphorical sort that is. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(INTERRUPTED BY LIVE EVENT)

END

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com