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CNN Crossfire
Bolton Nomination Fight Heats Up; Scalia for Chief Justice?
Aired April 22, 2005 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville. On the right, Robert Novak.
In the CROSSFIRE, the battle over John Bolton.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He is the right man at the right time for this important assignment.
ANNOUNCER: But one behind the scenes player may not convinced. Did this former secretary of State have a role in stalling Bolton's nomination as next ambassador to the U.N?
Out of committee and on to the floor -- the names of two Bush judicial nominees return for another try at confirmation. Democrats vow to block a Senate vote. Is congress headed for a crippling show down?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Robert Novak.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
He's a bully and a blow hard and he's President Bush's choice to serve as U.S ambassador to the United Nations. The good news is, John Bolton's nomination is at a stand still. And it's because some Republicans, apparently including former Secretary of State Colin Powell have reservations about it.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: But five other ex-secretaries of State are all for the nominee. A smart, tough guy who is devoted his life to public service. They praised his knowledge, experience, dedication and drive as qualifying him for this important diplomatic post. Will President Bush get the man he wants?
But first, the best little political brief in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
A whipping boy of the far left-wing conspiracy is U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, who is depicted as a right-wing ideologue. But people got a chance to look at the real Scalia when he was one of three justices interviewed by Tim Russert last night. Showed in its entirety on C-SPAN today, and again Saturday night, it showed Justice Scalia to be charming, witty and very profound. He worries about the court imposing itself against the will of the people and is outraged by fellow justices depending on foreign court decisions. If President Bush has the nerve to nominate Nino Scalia as Chief Justice of the United States, would Democrats have the audacity to filibuster this national treasure?
CARVILLE: I'm sure he's a guy that gives good conversation, you know, probably has a nice guy to have a drink with. I just think he's a right-wing ideologue and he shouldn't be chief justice. But I'm sure he's a nice buy. Hey, Justice Scalia, how are you doing? Good to see you. Bye. Boom boom. I don't want him making decisions of me, but he's on the Supreme Court, so what the hell!
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: What do you think happened when -- between the time that the -- that the Senate voted 100-0 to confirm him for the seat on the court, and now you say he's just a right wing ideologue. Do you think he was on the court and he...
CARVILLE: I think they had the problem before, they probably just had to let him go through. I have no idea. I don't want him to be Chief Justice. But I am sure he's a guy that gives good conversation.
Oftentimes I have commented rather jokingly that the finger of God touched the shoulder of a young Cajun boy growing up in Louisiana and gave him the gift of prophesy. Well, that Cajun boy was me, and you recall I said during the Clinton impeachment fiasco that this was a payback for Nixon and an idiotic mistake. Stupid right wingers, foaming at mouth, making complete fools of themselves trying to disagreed with me.
Today, I was vindicated and proven right by none other than Henry Hyde, the outgoing Congressman who led the fight out against President Clinton. Not only did he say he couldn't deny it was payback for Nixon, he also would not say it was even the right thing to do.
I am humbled by my ability to see through the fog of right wing Washington idiocy. Thank you, Lord.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, I love to see a humbled James Carville. As a matter of fact, if you read what Henry Hyde actually said he said he didn't know. He wasn't sure.
He's an old man. And he's retiring. I have nothing but admiration for Henry Hyde. He's a great American, a great Catholic, a great Republican. But you see the thing is, not everybody is a big mouth like you, James who is always sure of himself.
CARVILLE: But not everybody with God's finger come touch on the shoulder and give him the gift of prophecy. And I've said that all this is now -- Congressman Hyde he is 81 -- saying you know what, it could be payback for Nixon. This could have been a mistake. Why didn't tell us before you put the whole country through this stupidity?
NOVAK: The country really suffered, didn't they.
CARVILLE: Sure did.
NOVAK: House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi has defied precedence by hounding her Republican counterpart Tom DeLay on ethics charges. So she is fair game for the current inquiry by Republicans. They ask for documentation to prove that a Washington lobbyist did not pay for a trip to Puerto Rico four years ago.
The Washington Times reports that Congressman Pelosi has refused to give up any documents on the trip, or indeed to even answer any questions about it.
How can she stone wall on her own ethics, when she is demanding Tom DeLay to give up every piece of paper he has from day one. That's easy. She's a liberal Democrat from San Francisco, and they enjoy special rules.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Now, wait. Now let me get this straight, because I didn't hear you say that it's unprecedented for a member of the minority party to go after a member of the majority party on ethics. You didn't say that did you?
NOVAK: I said...
CARVILE: Huh?
NOVAK: Do you want to hear what I said?
CARVILLE: Yeah, what did you say. Tell me what you said.
NOVAK: I said it's unprecedented for a minority leader to go after a majority leader on ethics.
CARVILLE: Oh, I see, I see, but Newt Gingrich never went after Jim Wright.
NOVAK: He wasn't a leader.
CARVILLE: Oh, whatever.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He was a Republican House member.
Impertinent poor little Tom DeLay, lay off of Tom DeLay. The poor little baby.
(APPLAUSE) CARVILLE: Of all of the goofy things that goofy right wingers say in terms of sheer silliness, nothing can be more ludicrous than the idea that people think that George W. Bush is a better president than Bill Clinton was. In order to prove our point, we at Democracy Corps, an organization in which I'm one of the founders, asked the following question: Assuming that there were no term limits who would vote for in 2008, President Bush or President Clinton? The response, a staggering death blow to right-wingers everywhere.
The weak dollar, high deficit, suck up to you rich, spit down to the middle class, appease to ultra right wing preacher policies of this administration. It was a landslide. Clinton 53, Bush 43.
People recognized that the Clinton administration, yes, the Clinton administration did more for the prosperity of this country than any other in history.
NOVAK: You know your asking Democracy Corps in the next poll -- your next poll, James, which you ought to have is Abraham Lincoln against Bill Clinton, because it makes just about as much sense as that silly poll. Abraham Lincoln can't ever be president again, and Bill Clinton can't -- wait a minute -- wait, wait, hey, I'm talking! Bill Clinton can't ever...
CARVILLE: Sure. We can amend the constitution.
NOVAK: Will you let me talk instead of interrupting me. Bill Clinton can't ever be president again, so it's silly. What you ought to have is Hillary Clinton out there and see if the people want to have her as president.
CARVILLE: Oh, they do. We asked.
(CHEERING)
CARVILLE: She beat Jeb Bush by three. And we can amend the constitution. We might need him back out to dig us out of this ditch these boys have put us in.
Is John Bolton the right man for America's top diplomat at the United Nation? Apparently Bolton's former boss, Colin Powell, is one of the many who has doubted about that.
And what is this giant baked Alaska have to do with the president's energy plan? Find out later on CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: It's downright contentious on Capital Hill. The Democratic lynch mob fighting John Bolton's nomination as ambassador to the United Nations may be near to success. And two conservative judicial nominees, prevented from confirmation by Democratic filibusters, are going back to the Senate floor where they finally made face of showdown.
Joining us today in the CROSSFIRE, Democratic strategist Steve Elmendorf and Republican strategist Charlie Black.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Charlie, using Bob's term quote, "Democratic lynch mob" unquote, apparently got some support from unusual corner, former Bush secretary of State, probably the most popular Republican in the United States, Colin Powell who is reported in both the Washington Post and in the New York Times as making telephone calls to key Republican senators. Not very favorable to Mr. Bolton. What's the matter? You all can't keep your party in line here? Or there's some kind of problem out there, isn't it?
CHARLIE BLACK, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: That's funny, because CNN just reported that the senator's called Powell and he said some good things and maybe some less good things about John Bolton. But it's not playing that he trashed him.
(CROSSTALK)
BLACK: As Mr. Novak said, we have very distinguished former secretaries of State who have endorsed him.
John Bolton is the right man for the U.N. Now, if Democrats think the status quo at the U.N. is good, anti-American, anti-Israel, corruption, sex scandal, then let's send some milk toast up there to go along with the...
CARVILLE: Well, why does Senator Voinovich want to -- does he not know what he's doing either? He's not a Democrat. What's he -- he isn't Powell and Senator Chafee there -- like weak kneed (ph), French loving.
BLACK: Senator Voinovich said that some questions had been raised about John Bolton that he needed answers to. You know what, those questions are all phony charges. They'll be answered. And I suspect all of the Republican senators will vote for John Bolton. And he'll go to help perform the U.N., not send him up there to some go along, get along guy in some attorney's head.
NOVAK: Steven Elmendorf, another popular Republican with Democrats is John McCain. And John McCain is a strong supporter of John Bolton. Let's see what Senator McCain said the other day about him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, (R) ARIZONA: If a temper and an unorthodoxed management style were disqualifiers from government service, I would bet that a large number of people in Washington would be out of a job.
It's worth wondering no whether Mr. Bolton is a mild, gentile diplomat, we know he's not. But rather, whether he is a representative that we need at the United Nations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Isn't that an unanswerable argument?
STEVE ELMENDORF, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: You know, I think John McCain is a great guy, but as James said, the people who are raising questions about John Bolton are Republicans. Chuck Hagel, he is not exactly a liberal lefty, squishy guy, he's raising questions about him. The former ambassador to North Korea, Thomas Hubbard, raised questions about him. Carl Ford who worked for him at -- who is a Republican at State Department raised questions about him. His problem is that people in his own party have serious doubts about his ability to do this job.
NOVAK: Well, I'll put it a different way to you, Steve. You know, you didn't just fall off of the turnip truck and you could see...
CARVILLE: A little turnip boy there, huh?
ELMENDORF: I'm younger than you, Bob.
NOVAK: You could see, you could see that this is a coolly crafted attack engineered by Chris Dodd because -- because John Bolton is anti-Castro. Anybody who is tough on Castro runs into trouble with Chris Dodd who didn't even let the assistant secretary of State for Latin American affairs to take office. And if these Republicans are dumb enough to play into, they are act like Republicans.
ELMENDORF: Well, Democrats are united on the subject. But if you -- I didn't just fall off of the turnip truck. You are pick up the New York Times and the Washing Post this morning, two major newspapers, both had stories on the front page saying the that former secretary of State had concerns about this guy.
NOVAK: You think they are objective on the Bolton case?
ELMENDORF: I wonder how the Colin Powell story got started.
CARVILLE: Let me tell you what I am worried about here, Charlie. Is President Bush's ambassador, South Korea ambassador, Hubbard, his excellency said that Bolton -- that his testimony was at best a misinterpretation of misperception. That's diplomatic for he's a liar.
Does it bother you that we're sending somebody who has lied before a Senate committee up to represent the United States before the U.N and the world? Don't you think that the United States deserves better than some -- somebody that can't get their testimony straight? Wouldn't it be better if we sent someone who was was truthful to New York?
BLACK: I don't who know this guy is, but I do know -- I do know that if John Bolton even came close lying before a Senate committee, your Democratic buddies would have already proved it. They can't, because he didn't.
CARVILLE: They don't call this guy -- this guy is your -- is a Bush administration's ambassador to South Korea. That is a key diplomatic post.
BLACK: He's some foreign service officer who probably thinks the U.N.'s fine just like it is. Doesn't need to be reformed and shaken up. We're going to shake up and reform the U.N.
CARVILLE: He's your ambassador. Shouldn't he tell the truth?
NOVAK: Don't you know this is a fight between -- it has nothing to do with his management style -- between conservatives and the swishy folk at the State Department, the foreign service officers. Isn't this what it is about?
ELMENDORF: I think it's a fight between the squishy people in your party, Bob who are not supporting this guy. The Republicans on the committee -- he didn't get out of the committee, because George Voinovich was deeply disturbed by the testimony that he heard that day.
NOVAK: Well, well -- wait a minute, wait a minute.
(CROSSTALK)
BLACK: ...once they have the vote, he'll get out of the committee.
NOVAK: Guys, we have to take a break. And when we come back, President Bush's battle to get his judge's approved moves forward in the Senate. We'll debate the showdown next.
And just ahead, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on a plea deal for the only man to be charged in the U.S. for the conspiracy behind the 9/11 attacks.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Coming up at the top of the hour, 9/11 suspect Zacarias Moussaoui pleads guilty, and could face the death penalty. Why his lawyers tried to stop him? We are standing by for a news conference -- the attorney general.
Tornadoes are among nature's most destructive forces. We'll talk to someone who makes a point of trying to get close to them.
And critics say hip hop has been sending the wrong message to young people. But are hip hop artists changing their tune?
Those stories, much more only minutes away on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS. Now back to CROSSFIRE.
CARVILLE: Here we go again, next up, Senate floor for two controversial Appellate court nominees, Judges Priscilla Owen, and Janice Roger Brown, cleared the Senate Judiciary Committee, yesterday for a second go around. Will the make it this time or is the Senate headed for a gun fight at Ok Coral.
Our guest today a Republican strategist Charlie Black and Democratic strategy Steve Elmendorf.
NOVAK: Steve, they're not going to go again on this -- just going through this farce of not giving 60 to stop a filibuster. That is going to be a movement, a motion in parliamentary maneuver that's been used by Democrats many times in the past to try to get majority rule. And it all depends on the ruling by the president in the Senate. President of the Senate is a guy named Dick Cheney, and he revealed today how he's going to vote in make that ruling. Lets listen to him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If the Senate majority decides to move forward, and if the issue is presented to me in my elected office as president of the Senate and presiding officer, I will support bringing those nominations to the floor for an up-or- down vote.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: This is a majority vote. They have 51 votes. That's going to confirm those judge, isn't it.
STEVE ELMENDORF, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: It's really -- it's really unfortunate that after 200 years of the constitutional government we've had, the Republicans are so drunk their power, are so into abusing their power, that they're going to change the precedent because they can't get their nominee. We have given George Bush 95 percent of the people he's nominate for the courts. We have given him more Appellate Court judges than Ronald Reagan got, than Bill Clinton got, than George Bush Sr. And because they hey can't get a couple of their judges on, they want to change 200 years of American history. That's the way the Senate operates.
NOVAK: Steve -- you didn't read my -- you didn't read my (INAUDIBLE) week. Because Bob Bird uses this procedure of overriding the rules by majority vote four occasion, four occasions. Stopped one filibuster on natural gas on legislation, not just the judge. How do you explain -- that's been done many a times.
ELMENDORF: You know, this is a -- this is -- I think it's unprecedented, Bob. I disagree with you.
CHARLIE BLACK, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: OK. It's unprecedented for Democrats to filibuster judges. That's an unwritten rule in the Senate, but the rules have changed. It's the Democrats that have changed...
ELMENDORF: Republicans filibuster Abe Fortas. Bob was there.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: They never filibustered by Abe Fortas.
BLACK: No, that's not true. Not true. Abe Fortas didn't have 51 votes. NOVAK: That's correct.
BLACK: These great judges have a majority of the vote.
CARVILLE: This Republican Congress and this administration, this is what they've spent their time. They appeal to Paris Hilton tax cut, OK? The Paris Hilton tax cut. they Want to give Paris Hilton. They spent their time on ANWAR, appeasing all companies. They -- 1:00 in the morning they appease these right wings preachers with the Schiavo bill. They appease these credit card companies and banks with some bankruptcy bill. And now fighting the most important thing to you guys, just seeing it. We got to get these two right wing judges in there. Now, OK. All right. When are the shoe clerks going to get in this poker game. I mean, when are we going to do something about gas prices...
NOVAK: Are you a shoe clerk?
CARVILLE: Healthcare cost, declining income. When we are going to do something about the fact that our military is stretched to no end? That our deficit is out of control, that we have trade imbalances, that we have...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: When do the shoe clerks get into the poker game.
BLACK: The shoe clerks benefit from the legal reform that has passed Congress this year. They benefit from the bankruptcy reform.
CARVILLE: Oh yes, they do?
BLACK: They benefit from the energy bill, which the House just passed.
CARVILLE: ANWR.
BLACK: And we'll see if we can get it though the Senate if there's not a Democratic filibuster. By the way, the two judges you're talking about, these two women judges are well qualified, and they have bipartisan support in their respected states.
CARVILLE: What do they do...
(CROSSTALK)
BLACK: ... Democrats in their states that have endorsed them.
CARVILLE: Let me -- let me ask you a question, from right wing preachers to given Exxon more -- do you know how much money the oil companies made, do you think they need a tax cut? Or you think -- or you think people down there need help with health insurance? Do you think people out there need to do something about (INAUDIBLE).
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: DO you think Exxon needs another tax cut.
BLACK: Do you understand the law of supply and demand?
CARVILLE: Right, I understand it.
BLACK: That you get more supply of energy, the prices will go down.
(CROSSTALK)
BLACK: ... we'll have lower gas prices.
CARVILLE: And yes, and their doing nothing about it.
NOVAK: The Democratic spin is -- this Congress hasn't done anything. I've been around a long time and I have never seen this much done this early. Let me just show you the bills that have passed the House. Bankruptcy bill, death tax repeal, class action reform, real I.D. Act, continuity in Congress, the budget, the energy bill, Iraq supplemental job training. Well, they have been working hard, you just don't like what they...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Wait a minute! Hey!
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Let me ask you a question.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Where is the Paris Hilton tax cut.
NOVAK: You just -- you just don't -- you just don't like the things they have done, isn't that correct?
ELMENDORF: Well, you look at what they've done. What does that energy bill do about gas prices? What does the (INAUDIBLE) billions of dollars in tax breaks in that energy bill, Bob, that George Bush was against. They have tax breaks that George Bush was against, that's unbelievable.
(CROSSTALK)
ELMENDORF: They're more right wing than him.
NOVAK: What would you do about...
CARVILLE: I'd repeal the estate tax and cut the gas tax.
NOVAK: What would you do about gasoline prices? You don't' have any solutions to gasoline prices.
CARVILLE: Have the estate tax and cut the gas tax. How about that? Put a tax on estates over 7 million dollars and cut the gas tax.
NOVAK: That's hurt -- that hurts...
ELMENDORF: How about one.
NOVAK: That hurts the Carville children. Does your wife...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... on seven million...
(CROSSTALK)
BLACK: Cutting the tax won't increase the supply. The energy bill...
(CROSSTALK)
BLACK: Hey, and the energy bill increases nuclear power and other kind of sources to lower the price.
NOVAK: We're out -- we're out of time. Charlie Black, thank you very much.
BLACK: Thank you, Bob.
NOVAK: Steve Elmendorf, thank you.
ELMENDORF: Thank you.
NOVAK: Just ahead, liberals cook up yet another half-baked idea. They served up a giant baked Alaska on Capitol Hill. I will try to explain why when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: Ben & Jerry's gave us a really big scoop today. The tree huggers at the ice cream maker popped this giant baked Alaska, weighing almost half a ton at the U.S. Capitol. The big sticky display was to demonstrating that their flaming mad about the Congressional approval of oiling drilling in Alaska Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. The gargantuan dessert was concocted of cake, marshmallow cream, and 360 scoops of Ben & Jerry's Fossil Fuel ice cream. Protesters battle cry was, don't bake Alaska. How creative. I thought environments were supposed to be all about conservation. This was just a big gooey waste for nothing.
CARVILLE: That probably tastes -- taste good. From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I am Robert Novak. Join us again next, time for another edition of CROSSFIRE. I'll be back tomorrow at 7:00 Eastern with the "CAPITOL GANG." We'll debate the fight over Tom DeLay. WOLF BLITZER REPORTS starts right now.
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Aired April 22, 2005 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville. On the right, Robert Novak.
In the CROSSFIRE, the battle over John Bolton.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He is the right man at the right time for this important assignment.
ANNOUNCER: But one behind the scenes player may not convinced. Did this former secretary of State have a role in stalling Bolton's nomination as next ambassador to the U.N?
Out of committee and on to the floor -- the names of two Bush judicial nominees return for another try at confirmation. Democrats vow to block a Senate vote. Is congress headed for a crippling show down?
Today on CROSSFIRE.
Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Robert Novak.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE.
He's a bully and a blow hard and he's President Bush's choice to serve as U.S ambassador to the United Nations. The good news is, John Bolton's nomination is at a stand still. And it's because some Republicans, apparently including former Secretary of State Colin Powell have reservations about it.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: But five other ex-secretaries of State are all for the nominee. A smart, tough guy who is devoted his life to public service. They praised his knowledge, experience, dedication and drive as qualifying him for this important diplomatic post. Will President Bush get the man he wants?
But first, the best little political brief in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
A whipping boy of the far left-wing conspiracy is U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, who is depicted as a right-wing ideologue. But people got a chance to look at the real Scalia when he was one of three justices interviewed by Tim Russert last night. Showed in its entirety on C-SPAN today, and again Saturday night, it showed Justice Scalia to be charming, witty and very profound. He worries about the court imposing itself against the will of the people and is outraged by fellow justices depending on foreign court decisions. If President Bush has the nerve to nominate Nino Scalia as Chief Justice of the United States, would Democrats have the audacity to filibuster this national treasure?
CARVILLE: I'm sure he's a guy that gives good conversation, you know, probably has a nice guy to have a drink with. I just think he's a right-wing ideologue and he shouldn't be chief justice. But I'm sure he's a nice buy. Hey, Justice Scalia, how are you doing? Good to see you. Bye. Boom boom. I don't want him making decisions of me, but he's on the Supreme Court, so what the hell!
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: What do you think happened when -- between the time that the -- that the Senate voted 100-0 to confirm him for the seat on the court, and now you say he's just a right wing ideologue. Do you think he was on the court and he...
CARVILLE: I think they had the problem before, they probably just had to let him go through. I have no idea. I don't want him to be Chief Justice. But I am sure he's a guy that gives good conversation.
Oftentimes I have commented rather jokingly that the finger of God touched the shoulder of a young Cajun boy growing up in Louisiana and gave him the gift of prophesy. Well, that Cajun boy was me, and you recall I said during the Clinton impeachment fiasco that this was a payback for Nixon and an idiotic mistake. Stupid right wingers, foaming at mouth, making complete fools of themselves trying to disagreed with me.
Today, I was vindicated and proven right by none other than Henry Hyde, the outgoing Congressman who led the fight out against President Clinton. Not only did he say he couldn't deny it was payback for Nixon, he also would not say it was even the right thing to do.
I am humbled by my ability to see through the fog of right wing Washington idiocy. Thank you, Lord.
(APPLAUSE)
NOVAK: Well, I love to see a humbled James Carville. As a matter of fact, if you read what Henry Hyde actually said he said he didn't know. He wasn't sure.
He's an old man. And he's retiring. I have nothing but admiration for Henry Hyde. He's a great American, a great Catholic, a great Republican. But you see the thing is, not everybody is a big mouth like you, James who is always sure of himself.
CARVILLE: But not everybody with God's finger come touch on the shoulder and give him the gift of prophecy. And I've said that all this is now -- Congressman Hyde he is 81 -- saying you know what, it could be payback for Nixon. This could have been a mistake. Why didn't tell us before you put the whole country through this stupidity?
NOVAK: The country really suffered, didn't they.
CARVILLE: Sure did.
NOVAK: House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi has defied precedence by hounding her Republican counterpart Tom DeLay on ethics charges. So she is fair game for the current inquiry by Republicans. They ask for documentation to prove that a Washington lobbyist did not pay for a trip to Puerto Rico four years ago.
The Washington Times reports that Congressman Pelosi has refused to give up any documents on the trip, or indeed to even answer any questions about it.
How can she stone wall on her own ethics, when she is demanding Tom DeLay to give up every piece of paper he has from day one. That's easy. She's a liberal Democrat from San Francisco, and they enjoy special rules.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Now, wait. Now let me get this straight, because I didn't hear you say that it's unprecedented for a member of the minority party to go after a member of the majority party on ethics. You didn't say that did you?
NOVAK: I said...
CARVILE: Huh?
NOVAK: Do you want to hear what I said?
CARVILLE: Yeah, what did you say. Tell me what you said.
NOVAK: I said it's unprecedented for a minority leader to go after a majority leader on ethics.
CARVILLE: Oh, I see, I see, but Newt Gingrich never went after Jim Wright.
NOVAK: He wasn't a leader.
CARVILLE: Oh, whatever.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: He was a Republican House member.
Impertinent poor little Tom DeLay, lay off of Tom DeLay. The poor little baby.
(APPLAUSE) CARVILLE: Of all of the goofy things that goofy right wingers say in terms of sheer silliness, nothing can be more ludicrous than the idea that people think that George W. Bush is a better president than Bill Clinton was. In order to prove our point, we at Democracy Corps, an organization in which I'm one of the founders, asked the following question: Assuming that there were no term limits who would vote for in 2008, President Bush or President Clinton? The response, a staggering death blow to right-wingers everywhere.
The weak dollar, high deficit, suck up to you rich, spit down to the middle class, appease to ultra right wing preacher policies of this administration. It was a landslide. Clinton 53, Bush 43.
People recognized that the Clinton administration, yes, the Clinton administration did more for the prosperity of this country than any other in history.
NOVAK: You know your asking Democracy Corps in the next poll -- your next poll, James, which you ought to have is Abraham Lincoln against Bill Clinton, because it makes just about as much sense as that silly poll. Abraham Lincoln can't ever be president again, and Bill Clinton can't -- wait a minute -- wait, wait, hey, I'm talking! Bill Clinton can't ever...
CARVILLE: Sure. We can amend the constitution.
NOVAK: Will you let me talk instead of interrupting me. Bill Clinton can't ever be president again, so it's silly. What you ought to have is Hillary Clinton out there and see if the people want to have her as president.
CARVILLE: Oh, they do. We asked.
(CHEERING)
CARVILLE: She beat Jeb Bush by three. And we can amend the constitution. We might need him back out to dig us out of this ditch these boys have put us in.
Is John Bolton the right man for America's top diplomat at the United Nation? Apparently Bolton's former boss, Colin Powell, is one of the many who has doubted about that.
And what is this giant baked Alaska have to do with the president's energy plan? Find out later on CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: It's downright contentious on Capital Hill. The Democratic lynch mob fighting John Bolton's nomination as ambassador to the United Nations may be near to success. And two conservative judicial nominees, prevented from confirmation by Democratic filibusters, are going back to the Senate floor where they finally made face of showdown.
Joining us today in the CROSSFIRE, Democratic strategist Steve Elmendorf and Republican strategist Charlie Black.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Charlie, using Bob's term quote, "Democratic lynch mob" unquote, apparently got some support from unusual corner, former Bush secretary of State, probably the most popular Republican in the United States, Colin Powell who is reported in both the Washington Post and in the New York Times as making telephone calls to key Republican senators. Not very favorable to Mr. Bolton. What's the matter? You all can't keep your party in line here? Or there's some kind of problem out there, isn't it?
CHARLIE BLACK, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: That's funny, because CNN just reported that the senator's called Powell and he said some good things and maybe some less good things about John Bolton. But it's not playing that he trashed him.
(CROSSTALK)
BLACK: As Mr. Novak said, we have very distinguished former secretaries of State who have endorsed him.
John Bolton is the right man for the U.N. Now, if Democrats think the status quo at the U.N. is good, anti-American, anti-Israel, corruption, sex scandal, then let's send some milk toast up there to go along with the...
CARVILLE: Well, why does Senator Voinovich want to -- does he not know what he's doing either? He's not a Democrat. What's he -- he isn't Powell and Senator Chafee there -- like weak kneed (ph), French loving.
BLACK: Senator Voinovich said that some questions had been raised about John Bolton that he needed answers to. You know what, those questions are all phony charges. They'll be answered. And I suspect all of the Republican senators will vote for John Bolton. And he'll go to help perform the U.N., not send him up there to some go along, get along guy in some attorney's head.
NOVAK: Steven Elmendorf, another popular Republican with Democrats is John McCain. And John McCain is a strong supporter of John Bolton. Let's see what Senator McCain said the other day about him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, (R) ARIZONA: If a temper and an unorthodoxed management style were disqualifiers from government service, I would bet that a large number of people in Washington would be out of a job.
It's worth wondering no whether Mr. Bolton is a mild, gentile diplomat, we know he's not. But rather, whether he is a representative that we need at the United Nations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Isn't that an unanswerable argument?
STEVE ELMENDORF, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: You know, I think John McCain is a great guy, but as James said, the people who are raising questions about John Bolton are Republicans. Chuck Hagel, he is not exactly a liberal lefty, squishy guy, he's raising questions about him. The former ambassador to North Korea, Thomas Hubbard, raised questions about him. Carl Ford who worked for him at -- who is a Republican at State Department raised questions about him. His problem is that people in his own party have serious doubts about his ability to do this job.
NOVAK: Well, I'll put it a different way to you, Steve. You know, you didn't just fall off of the turnip truck and you could see...
CARVILLE: A little turnip boy there, huh?
ELMENDORF: I'm younger than you, Bob.
NOVAK: You could see, you could see that this is a coolly crafted attack engineered by Chris Dodd because -- because John Bolton is anti-Castro. Anybody who is tough on Castro runs into trouble with Chris Dodd who didn't even let the assistant secretary of State for Latin American affairs to take office. And if these Republicans are dumb enough to play into, they are act like Republicans.
ELMENDORF: Well, Democrats are united on the subject. But if you -- I didn't just fall off of the turnip truck. You are pick up the New York Times and the Washing Post this morning, two major newspapers, both had stories on the front page saying the that former secretary of State had concerns about this guy.
NOVAK: You think they are objective on the Bolton case?
ELMENDORF: I wonder how the Colin Powell story got started.
CARVILLE: Let me tell you what I am worried about here, Charlie. Is President Bush's ambassador, South Korea ambassador, Hubbard, his excellency said that Bolton -- that his testimony was at best a misinterpretation of misperception. That's diplomatic for he's a liar.
Does it bother you that we're sending somebody who has lied before a Senate committee up to represent the United States before the U.N and the world? Don't you think that the United States deserves better than some -- somebody that can't get their testimony straight? Wouldn't it be better if we sent someone who was was truthful to New York?
BLACK: I don't who know this guy is, but I do know -- I do know that if John Bolton even came close lying before a Senate committee, your Democratic buddies would have already proved it. They can't, because he didn't.
CARVILLE: They don't call this guy -- this guy is your -- is a Bush administration's ambassador to South Korea. That is a key diplomatic post.
BLACK: He's some foreign service officer who probably thinks the U.N.'s fine just like it is. Doesn't need to be reformed and shaken up. We're going to shake up and reform the U.N.
CARVILLE: He's your ambassador. Shouldn't he tell the truth?
NOVAK: Don't you know this is a fight between -- it has nothing to do with his management style -- between conservatives and the swishy folk at the State Department, the foreign service officers. Isn't this what it is about?
ELMENDORF: I think it's a fight between the squishy people in your party, Bob who are not supporting this guy. The Republicans on the committee -- he didn't get out of the committee, because George Voinovich was deeply disturbed by the testimony that he heard that day.
NOVAK: Well, well -- wait a minute, wait a minute.
(CROSSTALK)
BLACK: ...once they have the vote, he'll get out of the committee.
NOVAK: Guys, we have to take a break. And when we come back, President Bush's battle to get his judge's approved moves forward in the Senate. We'll debate the showdown next.
And just ahead, Wolf Blitzer has the latest on a plea deal for the only man to be charged in the U.S. for the conspiracy behind the 9/11 attacks.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Coming up at the top of the hour, 9/11 suspect Zacarias Moussaoui pleads guilty, and could face the death penalty. Why his lawyers tried to stop him? We are standing by for a news conference -- the attorney general.
Tornadoes are among nature's most destructive forces. We'll talk to someone who makes a point of trying to get close to them.
And critics say hip hop has been sending the wrong message to young people. But are hip hop artists changing their tune?
Those stories, much more only minutes away on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS. Now back to CROSSFIRE.
CARVILLE: Here we go again, next up, Senate floor for two controversial Appellate court nominees, Judges Priscilla Owen, and Janice Roger Brown, cleared the Senate Judiciary Committee, yesterday for a second go around. Will the make it this time or is the Senate headed for a gun fight at Ok Coral.
Our guest today a Republican strategist Charlie Black and Democratic strategy Steve Elmendorf.
NOVAK: Steve, they're not going to go again on this -- just going through this farce of not giving 60 to stop a filibuster. That is going to be a movement, a motion in parliamentary maneuver that's been used by Democrats many times in the past to try to get majority rule. And it all depends on the ruling by the president in the Senate. President of the Senate is a guy named Dick Cheney, and he revealed today how he's going to vote in make that ruling. Lets listen to him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If the Senate majority decides to move forward, and if the issue is presented to me in my elected office as president of the Senate and presiding officer, I will support bringing those nominations to the floor for an up-or- down vote.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: This is a majority vote. They have 51 votes. That's going to confirm those judge, isn't it.
STEVE ELMENDORF, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: It's really -- it's really unfortunate that after 200 years of the constitutional government we've had, the Republicans are so drunk their power, are so into abusing their power, that they're going to change the precedent because they can't get their nominee. We have given George Bush 95 percent of the people he's nominate for the courts. We have given him more Appellate Court judges than Ronald Reagan got, than Bill Clinton got, than George Bush Sr. And because they hey can't get a couple of their judges on, they want to change 200 years of American history. That's the way the Senate operates.
NOVAK: Steve -- you didn't read my -- you didn't read my (INAUDIBLE) week. Because Bob Bird uses this procedure of overriding the rules by majority vote four occasion, four occasions. Stopped one filibuster on natural gas on legislation, not just the judge. How do you explain -- that's been done many a times.
ELMENDORF: You know, this is a -- this is -- I think it's unprecedented, Bob. I disagree with you.
CHARLIE BLACK, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: OK. It's unprecedented for Democrats to filibuster judges. That's an unwritten rule in the Senate, but the rules have changed. It's the Democrats that have changed...
ELMENDORF: Republicans filibuster Abe Fortas. Bob was there.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: They never filibustered by Abe Fortas.
BLACK: No, that's not true. Not true. Abe Fortas didn't have 51 votes. NOVAK: That's correct.
BLACK: These great judges have a majority of the vote.
CARVILLE: This Republican Congress and this administration, this is what they've spent their time. They appeal to Paris Hilton tax cut, OK? The Paris Hilton tax cut. they Want to give Paris Hilton. They spent their time on ANWAR, appeasing all companies. They -- 1:00 in the morning they appease these right wings preachers with the Schiavo bill. They appease these credit card companies and banks with some bankruptcy bill. And now fighting the most important thing to you guys, just seeing it. We got to get these two right wing judges in there. Now, OK. All right. When are the shoe clerks going to get in this poker game. I mean, when are we going to do something about gas prices...
NOVAK: Are you a shoe clerk?
CARVILLE: Healthcare cost, declining income. When we are going to do something about the fact that our military is stretched to no end? That our deficit is out of control, that we have trade imbalances, that we have...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: When do the shoe clerks get into the poker game.
BLACK: The shoe clerks benefit from the legal reform that has passed Congress this year. They benefit from the bankruptcy reform.
CARVILLE: Oh yes, they do?
BLACK: They benefit from the energy bill, which the House just passed.
CARVILLE: ANWR.
BLACK: And we'll see if we can get it though the Senate if there's not a Democratic filibuster. By the way, the two judges you're talking about, these two women judges are well qualified, and they have bipartisan support in their respected states.
CARVILLE: What do they do...
(CROSSTALK)
BLACK: ... Democrats in their states that have endorsed them.
CARVILLE: Let me -- let me ask you a question, from right wing preachers to given Exxon more -- do you know how much money the oil companies made, do you think they need a tax cut? Or you think -- or you think people down there need help with health insurance? Do you think people out there need to do something about (INAUDIBLE).
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: DO you think Exxon needs another tax cut.
BLACK: Do you understand the law of supply and demand?
CARVILLE: Right, I understand it.
BLACK: That you get more supply of energy, the prices will go down.
(CROSSTALK)
BLACK: ... we'll have lower gas prices.
CARVILLE: And yes, and their doing nothing about it.
NOVAK: The Democratic spin is -- this Congress hasn't done anything. I've been around a long time and I have never seen this much done this early. Let me just show you the bills that have passed the House. Bankruptcy bill, death tax repeal, class action reform, real I.D. Act, continuity in Congress, the budget, the energy bill, Iraq supplemental job training. Well, they have been working hard, you just don't like what they...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Wait a minute! Hey!
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Let me ask you a question.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Where is the Paris Hilton tax cut.
NOVAK: You just -- you just don't -- you just don't like the things they have done, isn't that correct?
ELMENDORF: Well, you look at what they've done. What does that energy bill do about gas prices? What does the (INAUDIBLE) billions of dollars in tax breaks in that energy bill, Bob, that George Bush was against. They have tax breaks that George Bush was against, that's unbelievable.
(CROSSTALK)
ELMENDORF: They're more right wing than him.
NOVAK: What would you do about...
CARVILLE: I'd repeal the estate tax and cut the gas tax.
NOVAK: What would you do about gasoline prices? You don't' have any solutions to gasoline prices.
CARVILLE: Have the estate tax and cut the gas tax. How about that? Put a tax on estates over 7 million dollars and cut the gas tax.
NOVAK: That's hurt -- that hurts...
ELMENDORF: How about one.
NOVAK: That hurts the Carville children. Does your wife...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... on seven million...
(CROSSTALK)
BLACK: Cutting the tax won't increase the supply. The energy bill...
(CROSSTALK)
BLACK: Hey, and the energy bill increases nuclear power and other kind of sources to lower the price.
NOVAK: We're out -- we're out of time. Charlie Black, thank you very much.
BLACK: Thank you, Bob.
NOVAK: Steve Elmendorf, thank you.
ELMENDORF: Thank you.
NOVAK: Just ahead, liberals cook up yet another half-baked idea. They served up a giant baked Alaska on Capitol Hill. I will try to explain why when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: Ben & Jerry's gave us a really big scoop today. The tree huggers at the ice cream maker popped this giant baked Alaska, weighing almost half a ton at the U.S. Capitol. The big sticky display was to demonstrating that their flaming mad about the Congressional approval of oiling drilling in Alaska Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. The gargantuan dessert was concocted of cake, marshmallow cream, and 360 scoops of Ben & Jerry's Fossil Fuel ice cream. Protesters battle cry was, don't bake Alaska. How creative. I thought environments were supposed to be all about conservation. This was just a big gooey waste for nothing.
CARVILLE: That probably tastes -- taste good. From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I am Robert Novak. Join us again next, time for another edition of CROSSFIRE. I'll be back tomorrow at 7:00 Eastern with the "CAPITOL GANG." We'll debate the fight over Tom DeLay. WOLF BLITZER REPORTS starts right now.
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