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CNN Crossfire

Bush's European Trip Discussed; Senate Judicial Nominee Stalemate Debated

Aired May 09, 2005 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: on the left, the Reverend Al Sharpton. On the right, Robert Novak. In the CROSSFIRE, the Senate goes back to work after a week-long break. Can they solve the fight over judicial nominees? The attorney general says the controversy is keeping qualified people off the bench.

ALBERTO GONZALES, ATTORNEY GENERAL: My position is that they are entitled to an up or down vote within a reasonable period of time and that time, in my judgment, has passed. That's my position.

ANNOUNCER: And at least one senator wants the president to step in to help find a solution to the problem.

SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D) NEW YORK: You know, we're right on the edge of one of the most important moments in the history of the Republic.

ANNOUNCER: Can the Senate come to terms, or will the filibuster fight bring business to a halt on Capitol Hill? Today on CROSSFIRE.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Live, from the George Washington University, Al Sharpton and Robert Novak.

ROBERT NOVAK, ON THE RIGHT: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. There's no solution in sight to the effort of Senate Republicans to get Democrats to permit a vote on the president's judicial nominees. Until now, no appellate court nominees over the last hundred years had been barred from going ton bench because of a filibuster. The Republicans want to stop filibusters on judges.

REV. AL SHARPTON, ON THE LEFT: That would deprive the minority of a voice, an -- in the important Democratic process, changing years of Senate tradition, and ignores the fact that the Senate has confirmed more than 200 judges nominated by this president. Before we get into that issue, here's the first political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

President Bush is on the fourth stop of his European trip, visiting Georgia, a former Soviet satellite. He used the trip to voice his displeasure over recent steps Russia has taken away from democracy and back towards its Soviet past. Russian President Vladimir Putin hit back reminding President Bush, the 2000 election had been decided by the Supreme Court, and he says, the Russian electorate system is worse -- is better because the people there, the voters, choose the president and elect their president. In America, we elect the electors that in fact elect the president.

Putin's right about that, two things. In the course of our democracy, we do have the Supreme Court chose Bush in 2000 and we should get rid of the electoral college and let the people directly choose their president.

NOVAK: Reverend Al, I'm surprised that you are quoting an old KGB man as your source on what is democratic and what's not democratic. But, let me praise the president on this trip for saying some truth. He says that when the war ended 60 years ago, they had 50 more years of dictatorship in eastern Europe under the Soviet dictators, and that -- he said, frankly. that Franklin Roosevelt gave away Europe to the communists.

SHARPTON: I'm not quoting a KGB man. I'm quoting the founding fathers and others that said a democracy for the people and by the people. The people should choose the president, not the electoral college.

NOVAK: OK. It's in the Constitution, the electoral college.

To launch another run for president, John Kerry has to reinvent himself. No, he can't really turn himself into a conservative, but he's apparently noticed that successful candidates for president were governors from states far from Washington: Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush. Now, it's too late for John Kerry to become governor of Wyoming, but thanks to Rich Klein of "The Boston Globe," we learned Kerry has a new theme: get angry at Washington.

Yes, Long John is playing the outsider, the blue-blood, ivy- leaguer who spent the last 21 years in Washington. I guess John Kerry thinks that the American people are dumb enough to buy that.

SHARPTON: Well, I think it's ironic that you would list George W. Bush as an outsider. His father was a vice president. His father was the head of the CIA. He's the only farmer I know, and rancher I know, with no livestock on his ranch. I mean, if George Bush can play that, I don't see why John Kerry is definitely not the outsider in a Washington of today.

NOVAK: Because George W. grew up in Texas in the oil business. He was born in Texas. He was -- worked there. John Kerry is an upper-class Yankee.

SHARPTON: I'm still trying to find where Texas, Connecticut is. He's more Connecticut than Texas.

NOVAK: He's more Texas -- and that's what he showed in the last election.

SHARPTON: I'm the first to admit that men of God can also have strong political views, but the North Carolina pastor who said the people who voted for John Kerry needed to leave their church was out of line. His actions were illegal and immoral. The pastor, through his lawyer, later said there was a great misunderstanding and he didn't really expel those from the church who had voted for Kerry. A former church deacon however, says he doesn't accept that, and says that he was told by the church clerk that he was terminated because of his support for Kerry.

What this pastor did was illegal because he violated the first amendment rights to members of that church and it's immoral because he hasn't upheld his oath as a pastor to respect the views of his members.

NOVAK: Reverend, I have to agree with you, that a reverend has no business telling people in the flock how they have to vote. But let me say this: I've been in a lot of African-American churches north and south and, boy, are they political. You will agree with me, won't you?

SHARPTON: But there's a difference between being political and then throwing somebody out of the church because they disagree with your politics. You have the right to express your views. You do not have the right to enforce them, saying you are not a member of the church if you don't agree me.

NOVAK: We probably agree on that. It will make you unhappy to degree with me, but that's true.

Detroit's ethically-challenged mayor Kwame Kilpatrick wants a two percent tax on fast food. That's over and above the six percent tax on restaurant meals in Detroit. Since Detroit last year was ranked America's fattest city, this looks like a fat tax to make Detroiters eat more healthful food, but it isn't. Detroiters are to pay an extra nickel on a Big Mac because the city is $300 million in the budget hole and needs revenue. The mayor helped dig that hole, charging $210,000 on his city credit card in less than three years, including over a thousand dollars at Sweet Georgia Browns. Now, won't Detroiters be happy to fund Mayor Kilpatrick's lifestyle?

SHARPTON: Again, I think you can argue back and forth whether or not he was doing legitimate business for the city. He did bring business to the city. But, you know, if he was proposing a tax cut for the wealthiest in Detroit, you would make him a Republican.

NOVAK: Absolutely. I like tax cuts. I don't like tax increases. But how can you sit here and say that putting a nickel on a Big Mac, doesn't hurt you, doesn't hurt me, but it hurts ordinary people who can't afford that nickel.

SHARPTON: Again, I think that if that is the case then he'd make a great Republican if he's only hurting ordinary people. I happen to think what he's trying to do is deal with the deficit and he's dealing with it in an innovative way.

NOVAK: Well, he ought to pay his own bills to Sweet Georgia Browns, too. It's been four long years since Democrats in the Senate have been blocking President Bush's judicial nominees. The whole issue may be coming to a head in the U.S. Senate very soon. We'll debate filibusters and the nuclear -- or I call it the constitutional -- option with two key U.S. senators.

And President Bush trades in his pickup for a Russian carpool. Boy, we'll have that big story behind these pictures later on CROSSFIRE.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

5.9.05

GUESTS: Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchinson, Sen. Charles Schumer

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. All Republicans want is an up-or-down vote on judicial nominees. Are Democrats willing to let the Senate grind to a halt rather than permit majority rule? In the CROSSFIRE today, two senators join us from Capitol Hill: Charles Schumer, Democrat of New York, Kay Bailey Hutchinson, Republican from Texas.

Reverend Al?

SHARPTON: Senator Hutchinson, usually when there are extreme statements made by Democrats, Democrats are called on to denounce those statements. Recently, Pat Robertson said that "Looking over the course of the last 100 years, I think the gradual erosion of consensus that has held the country today is probably more serious than a few bearded terrorists who fly into buildings." Wouldn't you think that is an extreme statement? And would you denounce him and call on other Republican leaders to denounce such an extreme statement?

SEN. KAY BAILEY HUTCHINSON (R), TEXAS: Reverend Sharpton, I am not familiar with what was said or the context in which it was said. I think all of us agree that it is very important for us to prosecute the war on terror. But, also, I think it is very important that President Bush get his nominees through in the Circuit Courts. And frankly, Reverend Sharpton, President Bush has had fewer of his Circuit Court nominees confirmed than any judge in the history of America. And I think that is a major constitutional issue.

SHARPTON: But you wouldn't compare the Democrats questioning and using Senate types of strategies to deal with these judges, you wouldn't compare that as on the same level of terrorists flying planes into buildings killing innocent Americans, would you?

HUTCHINSON: I think the war on terror certainly is the most overriding issue that we have in Congress today, and certainly for the president. We're all tuned in to that. But I also believe that our constitutional balance of power is at stake and the president getting an up-or-down vote on his nominees for the Circuit Court bench. And he's lost almost 30 percent of his nominees. And that's just not right. We ought to be able to talk about them. We want to be able to work with the Democrats to give them a chance to raise their concerns. But I happen to know that Priscilla Owen, who was nominated four years ago today -- four years ago today, is one of the most qualified people that has ever been put forward. She has the unanimous well qualified rating, the highest given by the American Bar Association. She's been endorsed by two of the Democrats who served on the supreme court with her. She just has bipartisan support where people know her best, in Texas. And I think she deserved a vote after really taking a lot of hits that are unwarranted for four years by the United States Senate.

NOVAK: Senator Schumer, there was a story in the "Roll Call" newspaper on Capitol Hill this morning by reporter Paul Kane (ph) on a deal that's being cut, brokered by Republican Trent Lott and Democrat Ben Nelson. And the way I read it, they would take three of the president's judges who have been filibusters and throw them down the pit -- that's the pound of flesh -- and the four other judges would be confirmed. But what was the interesting thing is that all future nominations, these six Democrats who are agreeing to this, would agree to vote for cloture to end filibuster except in, quote, in extreme circumstances. What do you think of deal, sir?

SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: Well, obviously it depends on a bunch of different things. First, I don't think the six Democrats have agreed to anything, as best I have talked about, nor have the six Republicans who are negotiating. There are discussions going on. I think there's a real feeling, let's try to avoid this nuclear option because it would dramatically change the way the Senate functions and end checks and balances. But the whole idea of this is, what is an extreme circumstance? Is a judge nominee who thinks, for instance, that the New Deal is a socialist revolution and doesn't believe in any zoning laws or any child labor laws, that they are all unconstitutional, is that extreme?

So it depends how you define extreme. I believe that of the 215 judges, the 10 that we've blocked are very extreme in different ways.

NOVAK: Senators, you think --

SCHUMER: And so it depends how you define extreme.

NOVAK: I want to ask you how you define it. Do you define Antonin Scalia, U.S. Supreme Court justice, who was confirmed by a unanimous vote of the U.S. Senate several years ago, could be appointed chief justice by -- nominated for chief justice by President Bush, do you consider him extreme?

SCHUMER: Well, on some issues, he is extreme and on others he isn't. But the whole point is, there has to be some balance in the courts. I've always felt that, for instance, a Supreme Court with one Scalia and one Brennan, it would be a very interesting and good Supreme Court. A Supreme Court with five Scalias or five Brennans, one at the far right, one at the far left, would not be a good Supreme Court -- and that's because, Bob, judges should make law -- should interpret law, not make it. And when you get idealogues, people who are so passionate that they are right and everyone else is wrong and they tend to be at the extremes, you get judges who want to make law.

SHARPTON: Senator Hutchinson, isn't it true though that Republicans have used their options to deal with blocking judges -- not voting them out of committee, even one Supreme Court justice was stalled. Really does the Republicans have the moral authority to now talk about Democrats not exercising an option when, in fact, historically that has happened under Bill Clinton and others where judges were blocked even in committee?

HUTCHINSON: Well, Reverend Sharpton, of course, the committee always operates by a majority rule. That is what happens in committees. And legislation is blocked in committees all the time. But then you are able to have an amendment process on the floor that allows you to have the will of the Senate. The problem here is that we have not had a majority rule in the Senate on these Circuit Court judges. One-third, almost one-third of the Circuit Court judges have been blocked. And that's the major source of judges just below the office of the Supreme Court.

SHARPTON: Well, haven't Republicans blocked judges?

SCHUMER: reverend, let me chime in here, though.

NOVAK: Okay, we have to -- no, we'll have to take a break.

SCHUMER: In the Judiciary Committee -- sorry, we're getting a lot of feedback on the ear pieces here. I couldn't hear you, Bob.

NOVAK: We're going to have to take a break, Senator.

Next, is it appropriate to call the president of the United States a loser? We'll tell you which party leader doesn't seem to think so. And Wolf Blitzer will have the latest on a major U.S. military offensive in the Anbar region of Iraq, just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

5.6.09

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Coming up at the top of the hour -- a major U.S. military offensive underway right now in Iraq near the Syrian border. U.S. military officials say scores of insurgents already have been killed.

Is sexual orientation a choice or is it determined by biology? Results of a new medical research study about to be released only minutes from now. We'll have an exclusive interview with the study's author.

And 60 years after the end of World War II, we'll talk with a veteran who had to make an agonizing choice. All those stories and much more only minutes away on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS. Now back to "CROSSFIRE."

NOVAK: Welcome back to "CROSSFIRE" and our debate over whether the Senate can find its way out of its filibuster fight on judges. Still in the "CROSSFIRE" joining us from Capitol Hill, New York Democratic Senator Charles Schumer and Texas Republican Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison.

SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D) NEW YORK: Hey, Bob?

NOVAK: Yes? Go ahead.

SCHUMER: I was making the point that the 60 judges who didn't -- who were blocked under Clinton -- it wasn't, as Kay said, majority rule. They didn't get a vote in committee at all. And what happens is that because the Republicans were in charge of the judiciary committee they just didn't bring them up for a vote. There are different circumstances now. You don't have a Democratic president and a Republican controlled Senate which you did then.

But the same idea that the party that didn't control the presidency had some say in determining who the judges were still governs. Now, I know the Republicans get up and say, well, it's a filibuster. Blocking 60 judges and not giving them a vote was also unprecedented and it had the same effect, which is the party who didn't control the presidency but had some clout in the Senate controlled or had some say in what was happening.

NOVAK: Just quickly, Senator Schumer, your leader, minority leader, Senator Harry Reid, Democrat of Nevada, talking to some high school kids a couple days ago, said, "The man's father, former President Bush, is a wonderful human being. I think this guy is a loser. I think President Bush is doing a bad job." Do you think that the Democratic leader of the Senate, talking to high school kids, ought to call the president of the United States a loser?

SCHUMER: Let me say this, Harry Reid is a plain-spoken guy. He sort of a Harry Truman-type guy. He says what he thinks. He doesn't talk in politician-ese. What he was referring to there was not the president as a human being. He was talking about the deficit and how bad the deficit was and how the policies were a loser. Now, he called Karl Rove and explained what he meant.

But I would much rather have a plain-spoken-type guy being our leader than somebody who speaks in, you know, the Washington-ese blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

SHARPTON: Senator Hutchison, talking about plain-spoken, can you honestly say that the 60 judges that were stopped under Bill Clinton's presidency from coming out of committee, did they get an up and down vote. Everyone is saying in the right wing or the Republicans give these people an up or down vote. Did they get an up or down vote the 60 judicial nominees denied under the Clinton administration?

SEN. KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON (R) TEXAS: Reverend Sharpton, I don't think anyone in the Senate -- at least 99 percent of the Senate -- is not even talking about the committee process on District judges because the fact is senators make one recommendation to the president. They don't make several, they make one. So they virtually choose District judges. But what we are talking about is Circuit Court judges where you have several states represented. And the committee process has always worked. Maybe there have been complaints here or there, but no president in the history of the United States has lost almost a third of the Circuit Court judges. This is one step below the Supreme Court...

NOVAK: I'm afraid that's going to have to be the last word.

HUTCHISON: ...for the constitution to work. The constitution envisions 51 votes, not...

NOVAK: Thank you very much, Senator Hutchison. Thank you. And thank you.

SHARPTON: Senator, you can't filibuster on this shop.

NOVAK: Coming up, two of the world's most powerful leaders go for a joyride.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: In Russia, President Putin let President Bush get behind the wheel of his 1956 Volga. Mr. Bush warned the assembled media to, quote, "be careful, he's giving me a driving lesson," end quote. After some consultations about how to put a classic Soviet car into gear, the two leaders took a spin around the ground of Putin's residence. The car ran more smoothly during the ride than the American's efforts to instruct the Russian in democracy.

SHARPTON: Well, what I want to know is, how much the gas cost and who paid for it in the car. Maybe we can get a few tips from them over there that they can give Mr. Bush on how to deal with oil prices.

NOVAK: I'll give you a tip -- neither one of those guys paid for it, I guarantee.

SHARPTON: That's what I was afraid of.

From the left, I'm Al Sharpton. That's it for "CROSSFIRE."

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of "CROSSFIRE."

WOLF BLITZER REPORTS starts right now.

END

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Aired May 9, 2005 - 16:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: on the left, the Reverend Al Sharpton. On the right, Robert Novak. In the CROSSFIRE, the Senate goes back to work after a week-long break. Can they solve the fight over judicial nominees? The attorney general says the controversy is keeping qualified people off the bench.

ALBERTO GONZALES, ATTORNEY GENERAL: My position is that they are entitled to an up or down vote within a reasonable period of time and that time, in my judgment, has passed. That's my position.

ANNOUNCER: And at least one senator wants the president to step in to help find a solution to the problem.

SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D) NEW YORK: You know, we're right on the edge of one of the most important moments in the history of the Republic.

ANNOUNCER: Can the Senate come to terms, or will the filibuster fight bring business to a halt on Capitol Hill? Today on CROSSFIRE.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Live, from the George Washington University, Al Sharpton and Robert Novak.

ROBERT NOVAK, ON THE RIGHT: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. There's no solution in sight to the effort of Senate Republicans to get Democrats to permit a vote on the president's judicial nominees. Until now, no appellate court nominees over the last hundred years had been barred from going ton bench because of a filibuster. The Republicans want to stop filibusters on judges.

REV. AL SHARPTON, ON THE LEFT: That would deprive the minority of a voice, an -- in the important Democratic process, changing years of Senate tradition, and ignores the fact that the Senate has confirmed more than 200 judges nominated by this president. Before we get into that issue, here's the first political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."

President Bush is on the fourth stop of his European trip, visiting Georgia, a former Soviet satellite. He used the trip to voice his displeasure over recent steps Russia has taken away from democracy and back towards its Soviet past. Russian President Vladimir Putin hit back reminding President Bush, the 2000 election had been decided by the Supreme Court, and he says, the Russian electorate system is worse -- is better because the people there, the voters, choose the president and elect their president. In America, we elect the electors that in fact elect the president.

Putin's right about that, two things. In the course of our democracy, we do have the Supreme Court chose Bush in 2000 and we should get rid of the electoral college and let the people directly choose their president.

NOVAK: Reverend Al, I'm surprised that you are quoting an old KGB man as your source on what is democratic and what's not democratic. But, let me praise the president on this trip for saying some truth. He says that when the war ended 60 years ago, they had 50 more years of dictatorship in eastern Europe under the Soviet dictators, and that -- he said, frankly. that Franklin Roosevelt gave away Europe to the communists.

SHARPTON: I'm not quoting a KGB man. I'm quoting the founding fathers and others that said a democracy for the people and by the people. The people should choose the president, not the electoral college.

NOVAK: OK. It's in the Constitution, the electoral college.

To launch another run for president, John Kerry has to reinvent himself. No, he can't really turn himself into a conservative, but he's apparently noticed that successful candidates for president were governors from states far from Washington: Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush. Now, it's too late for John Kerry to become governor of Wyoming, but thanks to Rich Klein of "The Boston Globe," we learned Kerry has a new theme: get angry at Washington.

Yes, Long John is playing the outsider, the blue-blood, ivy- leaguer who spent the last 21 years in Washington. I guess John Kerry thinks that the American people are dumb enough to buy that.

SHARPTON: Well, I think it's ironic that you would list George W. Bush as an outsider. His father was a vice president. His father was the head of the CIA. He's the only farmer I know, and rancher I know, with no livestock on his ranch. I mean, if George Bush can play that, I don't see why John Kerry is definitely not the outsider in a Washington of today.

NOVAK: Because George W. grew up in Texas in the oil business. He was born in Texas. He was -- worked there. John Kerry is an upper-class Yankee.

SHARPTON: I'm still trying to find where Texas, Connecticut is. He's more Connecticut than Texas.

NOVAK: He's more Texas -- and that's what he showed in the last election.

SHARPTON: I'm the first to admit that men of God can also have strong political views, but the North Carolina pastor who said the people who voted for John Kerry needed to leave their church was out of line. His actions were illegal and immoral. The pastor, through his lawyer, later said there was a great misunderstanding and he didn't really expel those from the church who had voted for Kerry. A former church deacon however, says he doesn't accept that, and says that he was told by the church clerk that he was terminated because of his support for Kerry.

What this pastor did was illegal because he violated the first amendment rights to members of that church and it's immoral because he hasn't upheld his oath as a pastor to respect the views of his members.

NOVAK: Reverend, I have to agree with you, that a reverend has no business telling people in the flock how they have to vote. But let me say this: I've been in a lot of African-American churches north and south and, boy, are they political. You will agree with me, won't you?

SHARPTON: But there's a difference between being political and then throwing somebody out of the church because they disagree with your politics. You have the right to express your views. You do not have the right to enforce them, saying you are not a member of the church if you don't agree me.

NOVAK: We probably agree on that. It will make you unhappy to degree with me, but that's true.

Detroit's ethically-challenged mayor Kwame Kilpatrick wants a two percent tax on fast food. That's over and above the six percent tax on restaurant meals in Detroit. Since Detroit last year was ranked America's fattest city, this looks like a fat tax to make Detroiters eat more healthful food, but it isn't. Detroiters are to pay an extra nickel on a Big Mac because the city is $300 million in the budget hole and needs revenue. The mayor helped dig that hole, charging $210,000 on his city credit card in less than three years, including over a thousand dollars at Sweet Georgia Browns. Now, won't Detroiters be happy to fund Mayor Kilpatrick's lifestyle?

SHARPTON: Again, I think you can argue back and forth whether or not he was doing legitimate business for the city. He did bring business to the city. But, you know, if he was proposing a tax cut for the wealthiest in Detroit, you would make him a Republican.

NOVAK: Absolutely. I like tax cuts. I don't like tax increases. But how can you sit here and say that putting a nickel on a Big Mac, doesn't hurt you, doesn't hurt me, but it hurts ordinary people who can't afford that nickel.

SHARPTON: Again, I think that if that is the case then he'd make a great Republican if he's only hurting ordinary people. I happen to think what he's trying to do is deal with the deficit and he's dealing with it in an innovative way.

NOVAK: Well, he ought to pay his own bills to Sweet Georgia Browns, too. It's been four long years since Democrats in the Senate have been blocking President Bush's judicial nominees. The whole issue may be coming to a head in the U.S. Senate very soon. We'll debate filibusters and the nuclear -- or I call it the constitutional -- option with two key U.S. senators.

And President Bush trades in his pickup for a Russian carpool. Boy, we'll have that big story behind these pictures later on CROSSFIRE.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

5.9.05

GUESTS: Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchinson, Sen. Charles Schumer

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. All Republicans want is an up-or-down vote on judicial nominees. Are Democrats willing to let the Senate grind to a halt rather than permit majority rule? In the CROSSFIRE today, two senators join us from Capitol Hill: Charles Schumer, Democrat of New York, Kay Bailey Hutchinson, Republican from Texas.

Reverend Al?

SHARPTON: Senator Hutchinson, usually when there are extreme statements made by Democrats, Democrats are called on to denounce those statements. Recently, Pat Robertson said that "Looking over the course of the last 100 years, I think the gradual erosion of consensus that has held the country today is probably more serious than a few bearded terrorists who fly into buildings." Wouldn't you think that is an extreme statement? And would you denounce him and call on other Republican leaders to denounce such an extreme statement?

SEN. KAY BAILEY HUTCHINSON (R), TEXAS: Reverend Sharpton, I am not familiar with what was said or the context in which it was said. I think all of us agree that it is very important for us to prosecute the war on terror. But, also, I think it is very important that President Bush get his nominees through in the Circuit Courts. And frankly, Reverend Sharpton, President Bush has had fewer of his Circuit Court nominees confirmed than any judge in the history of America. And I think that is a major constitutional issue.

SHARPTON: But you wouldn't compare the Democrats questioning and using Senate types of strategies to deal with these judges, you wouldn't compare that as on the same level of terrorists flying planes into buildings killing innocent Americans, would you?

HUTCHINSON: I think the war on terror certainly is the most overriding issue that we have in Congress today, and certainly for the president. We're all tuned in to that. But I also believe that our constitutional balance of power is at stake and the president getting an up-or-down vote on his nominees for the Circuit Court bench. And he's lost almost 30 percent of his nominees. And that's just not right. We ought to be able to talk about them. We want to be able to work with the Democrats to give them a chance to raise their concerns. But I happen to know that Priscilla Owen, who was nominated four years ago today -- four years ago today, is one of the most qualified people that has ever been put forward. She has the unanimous well qualified rating, the highest given by the American Bar Association. She's been endorsed by two of the Democrats who served on the supreme court with her. She just has bipartisan support where people know her best, in Texas. And I think she deserved a vote after really taking a lot of hits that are unwarranted for four years by the United States Senate.

NOVAK: Senator Schumer, there was a story in the "Roll Call" newspaper on Capitol Hill this morning by reporter Paul Kane (ph) on a deal that's being cut, brokered by Republican Trent Lott and Democrat Ben Nelson. And the way I read it, they would take three of the president's judges who have been filibusters and throw them down the pit -- that's the pound of flesh -- and the four other judges would be confirmed. But what was the interesting thing is that all future nominations, these six Democrats who are agreeing to this, would agree to vote for cloture to end filibuster except in, quote, in extreme circumstances. What do you think of deal, sir?

SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: Well, obviously it depends on a bunch of different things. First, I don't think the six Democrats have agreed to anything, as best I have talked about, nor have the six Republicans who are negotiating. There are discussions going on. I think there's a real feeling, let's try to avoid this nuclear option because it would dramatically change the way the Senate functions and end checks and balances. But the whole idea of this is, what is an extreme circumstance? Is a judge nominee who thinks, for instance, that the New Deal is a socialist revolution and doesn't believe in any zoning laws or any child labor laws, that they are all unconstitutional, is that extreme?

So it depends how you define extreme. I believe that of the 215 judges, the 10 that we've blocked are very extreme in different ways.

NOVAK: Senators, you think --

SCHUMER: And so it depends how you define extreme.

NOVAK: I want to ask you how you define it. Do you define Antonin Scalia, U.S. Supreme Court justice, who was confirmed by a unanimous vote of the U.S. Senate several years ago, could be appointed chief justice by -- nominated for chief justice by President Bush, do you consider him extreme?

SCHUMER: Well, on some issues, he is extreme and on others he isn't. But the whole point is, there has to be some balance in the courts. I've always felt that, for instance, a Supreme Court with one Scalia and one Brennan, it would be a very interesting and good Supreme Court. A Supreme Court with five Scalias or five Brennans, one at the far right, one at the far left, would not be a good Supreme Court -- and that's because, Bob, judges should make law -- should interpret law, not make it. And when you get idealogues, people who are so passionate that they are right and everyone else is wrong and they tend to be at the extremes, you get judges who want to make law.

SHARPTON: Senator Hutchinson, isn't it true though that Republicans have used their options to deal with blocking judges -- not voting them out of committee, even one Supreme Court justice was stalled. Really does the Republicans have the moral authority to now talk about Democrats not exercising an option when, in fact, historically that has happened under Bill Clinton and others where judges were blocked even in committee?

HUTCHINSON: Well, Reverend Sharpton, of course, the committee always operates by a majority rule. That is what happens in committees. And legislation is blocked in committees all the time. But then you are able to have an amendment process on the floor that allows you to have the will of the Senate. The problem here is that we have not had a majority rule in the Senate on these Circuit Court judges. One-third, almost one-third of the Circuit Court judges have been blocked. And that's the major source of judges just below the office of the Supreme Court.

SHARPTON: Well, haven't Republicans blocked judges?

SCHUMER: reverend, let me chime in here, though.

NOVAK: Okay, we have to -- no, we'll have to take a break.

SCHUMER: In the Judiciary Committee -- sorry, we're getting a lot of feedback on the ear pieces here. I couldn't hear you, Bob.

NOVAK: We're going to have to take a break, Senator.

Next, is it appropriate to call the president of the United States a loser? We'll tell you which party leader doesn't seem to think so. And Wolf Blitzer will have the latest on a major U.S. military offensive in the Anbar region of Iraq, just ahead.

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5.6.09

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WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Coming up at the top of the hour -- a major U.S. military offensive underway right now in Iraq near the Syrian border. U.S. military officials say scores of insurgents already have been killed.

Is sexual orientation a choice or is it determined by biology? Results of a new medical research study about to be released only minutes from now. We'll have an exclusive interview with the study's author.

And 60 years after the end of World War II, we'll talk with a veteran who had to make an agonizing choice. All those stories and much more only minutes away on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS. Now back to "CROSSFIRE."

NOVAK: Welcome back to "CROSSFIRE" and our debate over whether the Senate can find its way out of its filibuster fight on judges. Still in the "CROSSFIRE" joining us from Capitol Hill, New York Democratic Senator Charles Schumer and Texas Republican Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison.

SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D) NEW YORK: Hey, Bob?

NOVAK: Yes? Go ahead.

SCHUMER: I was making the point that the 60 judges who didn't -- who were blocked under Clinton -- it wasn't, as Kay said, majority rule. They didn't get a vote in committee at all. And what happens is that because the Republicans were in charge of the judiciary committee they just didn't bring them up for a vote. There are different circumstances now. You don't have a Democratic president and a Republican controlled Senate which you did then.

But the same idea that the party that didn't control the presidency had some say in determining who the judges were still governs. Now, I know the Republicans get up and say, well, it's a filibuster. Blocking 60 judges and not giving them a vote was also unprecedented and it had the same effect, which is the party who didn't control the presidency but had some clout in the Senate controlled or had some say in what was happening.

NOVAK: Just quickly, Senator Schumer, your leader, minority leader, Senator Harry Reid, Democrat of Nevada, talking to some high school kids a couple days ago, said, "The man's father, former President Bush, is a wonderful human being. I think this guy is a loser. I think President Bush is doing a bad job." Do you think that the Democratic leader of the Senate, talking to high school kids, ought to call the president of the United States a loser?

SCHUMER: Let me say this, Harry Reid is a plain-spoken guy. He sort of a Harry Truman-type guy. He says what he thinks. He doesn't talk in politician-ese. What he was referring to there was not the president as a human being. He was talking about the deficit and how bad the deficit was and how the policies were a loser. Now, he called Karl Rove and explained what he meant.

But I would much rather have a plain-spoken-type guy being our leader than somebody who speaks in, you know, the Washington-ese blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

SHARPTON: Senator Hutchison, talking about plain-spoken, can you honestly say that the 60 judges that were stopped under Bill Clinton's presidency from coming out of committee, did they get an up and down vote. Everyone is saying in the right wing or the Republicans give these people an up or down vote. Did they get an up or down vote the 60 judicial nominees denied under the Clinton administration?

SEN. KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON (R) TEXAS: Reverend Sharpton, I don't think anyone in the Senate -- at least 99 percent of the Senate -- is not even talking about the committee process on District judges because the fact is senators make one recommendation to the president. They don't make several, they make one. So they virtually choose District judges. But what we are talking about is Circuit Court judges where you have several states represented. And the committee process has always worked. Maybe there have been complaints here or there, but no president in the history of the United States has lost almost a third of the Circuit Court judges. This is one step below the Supreme Court...

NOVAK: I'm afraid that's going to have to be the last word.

HUTCHISON: ...for the constitution to work. The constitution envisions 51 votes, not...

NOVAK: Thank you very much, Senator Hutchison. Thank you. And thank you.

SHARPTON: Senator, you can't filibuster on this shop.

NOVAK: Coming up, two of the world's most powerful leaders go for a joyride.

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NOVAK: In Russia, President Putin let President Bush get behind the wheel of his 1956 Volga. Mr. Bush warned the assembled media to, quote, "be careful, he's giving me a driving lesson," end quote. After some consultations about how to put a classic Soviet car into gear, the two leaders took a spin around the ground of Putin's residence. The car ran more smoothly during the ride than the American's efforts to instruct the Russian in democracy.

SHARPTON: Well, what I want to know is, how much the gas cost and who paid for it in the car. Maybe we can get a few tips from them over there that they can give Mr. Bush on how to deal with oil prices.

NOVAK: I'll give you a tip -- neither one of those guys paid for it, I guarantee.

SHARPTON: That's what I was afraid of.

From the left, I'm Al Sharpton. That's it for "CROSSFIRE."

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of "CROSSFIRE."

WOLF BLITZER REPORTS starts right now.

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