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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Interview with Senator John McCain; Bowe Bergdahl Controversy

Aired June 05, 2014 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Extraordinary new details about the night Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl disappeared and about his possible attempts to get away.

I'm Jake Tapper. This is THE LEAD.

The world lead. Fresh claims that Sergeant Bergdahl was spotted in an Afghan village, possibly on a hallucinogenic drug, before the Taliban grabbed him. And not only that, but new reports that he may have tried to escape not once, but at least twice.

The money lead. Losing jobs for negligence linked to at least 13 people losing their lives, General Motors now admitting to a -- quote -- "pattern of incompetence and neglect." But is that any comfort for the victims' families?

And the politics lead. President Obama and Russian President Vladimir Putin, they will break bread in France this evening. And they will talk about Ukraine, just not with each other or in the same room.

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We will begin with the world lead.

It has been something of a challenge piecing together the events leading up to the capture of newly freed American captive Bowe Bergdahl, thanks in no small part to the military's clampdown on information from that night and the following weeks.

But now CNN has uncovered some remarkable new claims from local Afghan officials, not just about Bergdahl's capture, but about his actions in the moments beforehand.

Our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr joins us now.

Barbara, explain. What are these local villagers telling us?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, I think it's important what you just said. They are claims. We can not independently verify any of this.

But a local Afghan security official who was on duty when -- in the area when Bergdahl was captured is telling CNN Bergdahl apparently wandered into a village. The Afghan villagers tried to tell him, apparently, it was too dangerous, he shouldn't be there, that he should return to his base. But they had language difficulties. Nobody understood each other.

There is also report that he was on hallucinogenic drugs. We want to say again that we have not been able to confirm that. But apparently what did happen is that at some point, of course, the Taliban in the area grabbed him and took him into captivity.

This is part of the narrative, and it is very difficult now to piece together exactly what happened.

TAPPER: And, Barbara, what have you learned about Bergdahl's actions while being held by the Taliban over the previous five years?

STARR: Actually, a U.S. official is now telling me that they do have information that Bergdahl may -- may have tried to escape at least twice during his five years in captivity.

The reason this official is caveating that with a may, they have some information, some intelligence about this, but they really need to talk to Bowe Bergdahl and get from him the direct details of what happened. A lot of this, Jake, awaits talking to Bowe Bergdahl directly.

TAPPER: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon, thank you so much.

These are -- these new claims are emerging after senators got a closed-door look at that proof of live video of Bergdahl, which apparently showed the captive in such a state, the White House decided to cut a deal immediately to swap the sergeant for five mid- to high- ranking Taliban imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay.

They did so, of course, without notifying Congress, as required by law. Senator Angus King, independent of Maine, tells CNN that in the briefing last night, he and his fellow senators were told that U.S. intelligence indicated that if anything about the swap became public before it went down, Bergdahl would have been killed.

President Obama in Belgium today said the political uproar over Bergdahl's release does not make him waver in the slightest about whether the swap was the right thing to do.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm never surprised by controversies that are whipped up in Washington. We do not leave anybody wearing the American uniform behind.

We had a prisoner of war whose health had deteriorated. And we were deeply concerned about it and we saw an opportunity and we seized it. And I have no apologies for that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: After that private briefing and the screening of that proof of life video, the senators, most of whom I think it's fair to say are not medical doctors, they emerged with widely ranging takes on what they saw. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. SAXBY CHAMBLISS (R), GEORGIA: I don't think from a health standpoint, there was any issue.

SEN. ANGUS KING (I), MAINE: He looked terrible. And I think that video should be released at some point.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D), WEST VIRGINIA: That did not sell me at all. The proof of life was basically five months ago, December. At that time, he was impaired. That is not the person that was released here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The tape in question is one of two proof of live videos released of Bergdahl recently, neither of which has been made public yet.

Very few Americans can relate to the experience of enduring five years as a prisoner of war.

Senator John McCain is a noble exception, but he also happens to be one of the leading Republicans criticizing the deal that the White House cut with the Taliban to get Bergdahl home in exchange for five Guantanamo Bay detainees.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: And Senator John McCain, Republican from Arizona and ranking member on the Senate Armed Services Committee, joins me now.

Senator, I know you want to talk about this.

In February, you had some comments to Anderson Cooper about this case. And I want to run those and get your response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Would you oppose the idea of some form of negotiations or prisoner exchange? I know back in 2012, you called the idea of even negotiating with the Taliban bizarre, highly questionable.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Well, at that time, the proposal was that they would release Taliban, some of them really hard-core, particularly five really hard-core Taliban leaders, as a confidence- building measure.

Now this idea is for an exchange of prisoners for our American fighting man. I would be inclined to support such a thing, depending on a lot on of the details.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, you sound supportive, inclined to support such a thing depending on some of the details. MCCAIN: Yes. And the details are outrageous.

The details are that they went to Qatar, where the Taliban has an office, and in a year, they are going to be out. And the deal is -- it's -- like any other agreement, it's -- as I said, it's in the details.

And so for -- I mean, it's just totally unacceptable. These people would be back in the fight. Our troops will still be there. And I -- it's like any other -- I support a lot of agreements. I support an agreement with Iran on nuclear situation.

But I certainly would want to know the details. And right now, the details I know are not any good. The details, as I found out here, were unacceptable.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: So, if given this choice, if you were in the White House or if they had come to you and given you the decision and said, we're concerned about Bergdahl, this is our chance, five Taliban for him, you would say no?

MCCAIN: Absolutely I wouldn't -- first of all, before I consider it and who those Taliban were, these are people that were selected by the Taliban, not by the United States, to start with.

Second of all, they are the highest-ranking people. Third of all, they were judged to be such a risk that they shouldn't be released. And, fourth of all, they are released into Qatar, where they are free to travel and plot, and also after a year, there's no doubt in my mind they will reenter the fight. That's why Leon Panetta said what he said, that he opposed it.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: But, Senator, presumably, this was the best deal they could get. You're saying that if you...

(CROSSTALK)

MCCAIN: That's like saying -- that's like saying a nuclear deal with Iran is the best deal they can get. It has to be a deal that preserves American security. This does not.

TAPPER: So he would still be in Pakistan or Afghanistan or wherever he was?

MCCAIN: I'm afraid that that's the case, because our first obligation is not to put the lives of American fighting men and women at risk by having these people return to the fight.

There's a clear record of these people having returned to the fight, and in leadership positions, because it's a badge of honor to have been in Guantanamo. These are -- these are also war criminals. A couple of them were

accused of killing thousands of Shiite Muslims. These are the ones that used to take the women into the soccer stadium in Kabul and hang them from the goalposts. I would certainly not want to release anyone that would pose a risk of further threat to the United States of America.

TAPPER: But, Senator, they are not going to free members who are members of Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. It's going to be bad guys that are released in exchange for an American.

MCCAIN: There's all kinds of people. This is the top leadership selected by the Taliban.

There is a huge difference, Jake. Look, this is just an attack by the Obamaphiles. Look, I would never agree to such a thing. And I said I would have to know -- depending a lot of the details, depending on the details.

TAPPER: OK.

MCCAIN: And then I went on and said again after asked, I obviously would have to know the details. OK?

TAPPER: Got it.

MCCAIN: The details are unacceptable.

And for anyone to accuse me therefore of saying I would support any -- any prisoner swap under any circumstances is lying.

TAPPER: Let's move on.

MCCAIN: Yes.

TAPPER: You saw the tape last night, the proof of life tape. How did Bergdahl look in that tape to you, and why do you think so many senators have different opinions on his health?

MCCAIN: Well, I can't -- I'm not that -- I don't have that kind of expertise.

I do know that Dr. Coburn -- well, I shouldn't say. I -- why don't you ask Dr. Coburn what his view of it is, because he's a qualified medical doctor, and he observed it, rather than me?

I would -- that -- also, I understand that video was taken back in January. That's a long time since then has elapsed. So...

TAPPER: But what was your take -- what was your take on it?

MCCAIN: Well, I think he looked a little strange to me.

It was hard to tell. It was very brief. He was -- it was up close. I don't expect anybody who's being held in prison to look like they are in great shape, to tell you the truth, Jake. TAPPER: As a former prisoner of war -- and I'm not comparing you

and Sergeant Bergdahl, obviously very different situations, very different captivities -- but as a former prisoner of war, did you see anything in his eyes, either in the proof of life or in his release, that you could relate to, that you could understand, just because you're one of the few people who has this kind of -- unfortunately, you have this kind of expertise?

MCCAIN: I recall a couple of times that prisoners who were in Hanoi were taken out before the media and they didn't look very good. It's a tough experience.

My heart goes out to him. I wanted him home. I didn't want to risk the lives and don't want to risk the lives of Americans. I would never agree with that.

You know, this line about the sailor falling off the ship, look, the captain of the ship's responsibility is to make sure that they win the battle and first take care of everybody, and then you take care of those who are left behind. This battle is still going on. The president may be leaving, but the Taliban aren't.

TAPPER: Senator John McCain, Republican, Arizona, Senate Armed Services Committee, former Vietnam POW, we thank you for your expertise, your thoughts, and, of course, as always, we thank you for your service, sir.

MCCAIN: Thank you, Jake.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: Coming up, as questions continue to be asked about the deal leading to Bergdahl's release, we're just now hearing about his current mental state, new details on why he has not yet spoken with his parents and what he's telling doctors coming up next.

Plus, you can kick the man out, but you cannot keep him out of the spotlight -- how Vladimir Putin's latest antics and sexist comments are stealing the show ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to the LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper where we are going to stay in our world lead.

They are explosive allegations, to say the least, made on this very show this week that Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl may have been actively seeking a dialogue allegation with the Taliban before his capture. Former army sergeant Evan Buetow who was Bergdahl's team leader, first told the show earlier this week, that his squad found out about Bergdahl's desire to talk to the enemy through radio interceptions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EVAN BUETOW, BERGDAHL'S FORMER TEAM LEADER: I was standing up to the radio when they heard that there's an American in a village called (INAUDIBLE). He is looking for someone who speaks English so he can talk to the Taliban and I heard it straight from the interpreter's lips as he heard it over the radio.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Buetow's claims were then backed up on THE LEAD by the man who led Bergdahl's squad, former army staff sergeant Justin Gerleye.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUSTIN GERLEYE, BOWE BERGDAHL'S FORMER SQUAD LEADER: I was standing there with Evan when those communications came across. As far as what exactly was said and I don't want to really say it, you know, quote it. But there was talk that he was running around looking for somebody who spoke English and wanted to seek out the Taliban.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Could that person had been someone else, someone other than Bergdahl? Well, Gerley says no, there was no one else to meet that description. There is a similar report in the army war logs leaked to Wikileaks.

Here's part of that. Quote, "traffic indicates that an American soldier is talking and is looking for someone who speaks English," end quote. The war log, however, mentioned it is nothing about the soldier seeking the Taliban. Though the war logs are not 100 percent comprehensive.

Buetow says the war logs left at out. It was incomplete, for whatever reason. And he and others reported the information to higher ups and to investigators.

So, if Bergdahl really was trying to communicate with the Taliban, does that mean he had necessarily some kind of nefarious intent? Well, no. According to one former government official involved in the case who says the account of Buetow and Gerley, quote "tracks with other indicators of a sort of messy antic mission on the part of Bergdahl's part to stop the violence and perhaps help broker an understanding with a local Taliban," end quote.

Just one form of speculation. None of that is still necessary excuse anything, but Bergdahl's intent is certainly significant.

I want to get some more insight into the mental state of Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl with former navy psychiatrist Dr. Paul Reagan who has helped countless veterans.

Doctor Reagan, thanks for joining us. This idea that Bergdahl may have been reaching out to make peace, you were involved in a case in 1983 with some parallels to that. Describe it for us.

DR. PAUL REAGAN, FORMER NAVY PSYCHIATRIST: Yes. There are some interesting parallels. This was a young man not that much younger than Sergeant Bergdahl who left his post in Japan. He was a tank officer. He flew with his own money to Pakistan, made it to northern Pakistan and was heading there in an effort, in a delusion that he had, a grandiose delusion that he was going to help unite the Afghan rebels in their fight against the Russians.

He, fortunately, did not do that and ended up back in Washington, D.C., and I examined him at the national naval medical center and you talk about the messiah complex and bipolar, which is what this young man suffered from, bipolar disorder with a manic, grandiose delusion, are one of the underpinnings that sometimes can cause this messiah complex. Other things can be schizophrenia, certain personality -- narcissistic personality traits. So there are variety of different things that can cause it.

TAPPER: And Dr. Reagan, would that square at all with what we're hearing now from this local Afghan official, about Bergdahl appearing to be in some sort of a hallucinogenic state when he came into the village of Yayak (ph) Ville?

REAGAN: Well, what's interesting there is a very highly -- somebody who had a lot of thoughts about joining the army and had thought that he maybe was being called to a higher power, for him to leave and look for somebody certainly is someone who may have had a messiah complex.

The idea that the hallucinogens, I can't put together. Certainly people who suffer trauma can be very detached and look detached from their environment. That's a peculiar description. And I don't think we have enough facts to really put that in this context yet.

TAPPER: Let's turn to Bergdahl's current mental state three days ago as senior defense official confirmed to CNN that Bergdahl was having trouble speaking English after being held five years in captivity. Today, a Pentagon spokesman says that he's conversing in English. What's happening to him right now?

REAGAN: Well, I think that clearly we don't know what those five years were like. He was really the subject of coercion, he was very isolated. So this is an individual who is in a very fragile state, very regressed. Regressed would suggest assuming a more immature, reverting to a more immature, psychological state.

Now, I don't think to the point where he couldn't speech English. People who are very discontrolled, very emotionally fragile, have lost their ability to modulate their own emotions, then emotions can flood and they can have impaired cognition.

Also, as you, yourself, know, it's a very stark environment over there and to come back, there is going to be going from sensory under load to sensory overload.

TAPPER: Yes. In the situation like this, doctor, and quickly if you could, when do you decide -- when does the medical practitioner or army decide to reintroduce someone like this to his family?

REAGAN: Well, that's a clinical judgment. Everybody who is, clearly the army is very good at this, who they are reintegrating, decompressing progresses at a different rate so the clinicians on hand can make the decision when he can tolerate that. TAPPER: Dr. Paul Reagan, thank you so much. We appreciate it.

REAGAN: Thank you.

TAPPER: When we come back, 13 deaths. That's the number General Motors has vehemently stood by since admitting to a deadly issue with the ignition switch it vehicles. So, why is GM now suggesting the number could be higher?

Plus, he has got the result, but his tactics have raised some questions. Coming up, my interview with Chicago mayor Rahm Emanuel on his latest proposal to curb violence in the city of Chicago.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD, the money lead now.

General Motors is accepting responsibility for faulty ignition switches that led to the deaths of at least 13 people. CEO Mary Barra today announced the company had given 15 employees pink slips for their handling of the issues. Still, she said GM investigation found no evidence about conspiracy to cover up the facts GM's investigation. No evidence of conspiracy.

GM has already recalled nearly 16 million vehicles this year. And Barra warned more recalls are likely in the near future. For his part, senator Harry Reid told the goggle of reports today, it may be worth Congress getting involved whether to see if GM made a cold, calculated tradeoff, between safety and posts (ph).

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. HARRY REID (D-NY), MAJORITY LEADER: They were fired and they want to put him in jail now?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Poppy Harlow is in the room for the GM press conference earlier. She joining me now.

Poppy, GM said this morning that the ignition switch problem only killed 13 people, only, but by midday they had already changed their tune. Why the sudden shift?

POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, Jake, they are official sticking right now with that 13 number, but they are using a very narrow definition of who they are counting, frankly. They are only counting those frontal act crashes where airbag didn't deploy. They are not counting side impact crashes. They are not counting frankly people who died in the back seat in the same crash. But they also said that they have hired this attorney Ken Feinberg to dole out victim compensation. And they told me after the press conference that if he comes up with a different number of those they should be compensated, GM official number may change, but still though, they are only counting those frontal crashes. And, frankly, we really want to know why. Listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Is that doing the right thing, to not count someone, say, sitting in the back seat or someone who was in a side impact crash or are you saying that that number may go up if you determined that those people died as a result of the ignition switch?

DAN AMMANN, PRESIDENT, GENERAL MOTORS: The rules and eligibility criteria of the compensation program are being determined and seen independently by Ken Feinberg. It will be his determination as to what the rules are, what the eligibility criteria are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: So bottom line, Jake, we'll see the number, though, officially is 13 and a lot of families are very mad because their loved ones are not counted on that list.

TAPPER: So Poppy, GM is saying there is no cover-up. I checked it out. We did our own investigation. No cover-up.

HARLOW: Right.

TAPPER: I'm sure, we will all take them at their word. But the flip side of that is, if they are not evil, then they are incompetent?

HARLOW: Yes. And they said that themselves. I mean, the words that CEO Mary Barra used this morning quoting "incompetence and neglect" over an 11-year period with this company knew there was a deadly defect in their cars and it went pretty high. She did say that didn't go to the highest level. But we know it went pretty high. I mean, they lay off 15 people. More than half, we're told, are executive level or higher. But apparently it didn't get up high enough to have something done about it. Keep in mind, the department of justice is still doing their criminal probe and Congress is still investigating. So, this is not just the end of the story.

TAPPER: Quickly, Poppy, if you would, that fund that Feinberg is going to be administering. How soon can the families of these 13 victims expect to see money and how much money are we talking?

HARLOW: We don't know how much. They didn't give the number today.