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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Interview With State Department Spokeswoman Jen Psaki; Crisis in Iraq; Alleged Benghazi Mastermind Caught; U.S. Deploying 275 Troops in Iraq; Twin Tornadoes Pummel Town

Aired June 17, 2014 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: So, great news about the capture of that suspected instigator of the Benghazi attacks. But why did it take so long to do that, when CNN found him and spoke with him more than a year ago?

I'm Jake Tapper. This is THE LEAD.

The world lead. He is a key suspect in the attacks on U.S. diplomatic posts in Benghazi, Libya. One year and nine months later, he is finally in U.S. government hands and he's going to be tried on U.S. soil. Is that the right call?

Also in world news, militants on the march -- a city fewer than 40 miles from Baghdad could be the next to fall. How soon could the terrorists with ISIS be in the capital of Iraq, and what's to stop them from killing everybody once they arrive?

And the politics lead. Benghazi, Iraq and who knows what else could come up during the town hall that Hillary Clinton will be holding live here on CNN in just minutes. We're inviting you to ask the questions.

Good afternoon, everyone.

We're live from the shrine to all things journalism, the Newseum here in Washington, D.C., where just an hour from now, former first lady, former Senator, former Secretary of State and possibly future presidential candidate Hillary Clinton will hold a live town hall moderated by our own Christiane Amanpour.

And you can only see it on CNN.

Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. Good afternoon.

So much happening today. We're covering it all this hour, two major stories in our world lead.

In Iraq, Islamist militants are leaving a trail of blood on their way to Baghdad. And, in Libya, U.S. forces finally captured a key suspect in the September 11, 2012, attacks on U.S. diplomatic posts in Benghazi, Libya, an incident that has, incidentally, dogged Clinton, who led the State Department at the time.

The suspect, Ahmed Abu Khattala, described by President Obama as one of the -- quote -- "masterminds" of the Benghazi attack, U.S. special forces working with the FBI finally caught him in Libya on Sunday. Officials tell CNN he is being held outside Libya right now, but he will not stay there.

A spokesperson for the National Security Council says Khattala will be move the to the U.S. in -- quote -- "the coming days." And Attorney General Eric Holder has vowed to try him here in the U.S. in American courts. That's a decision that is already generating controversy.

U.S. officials say he's being interrogated right now, before the transfer. The attacks on the U.S. Consulate in CIA annex in Benghazi killed four Americans, Ambassador Chris Stevens, information management officer Sean Smith, and CIA contractors and former Navy SEALs Glen Doherty and Tyrone Woods.

President Obama today hailed the capture of Khattala and said it should serve as a message for the rest of the world.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When Americans are attacked, no matter how long it takes, we will find those responsible and we will bring them to justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: In this case, it took more than 21 months after the attacks.

But, in May of 2013, more than a year ago, our own Arwa Damon was able to be track down Khattala in plain sight. He was kicking up his heels at a coffee shop in Benghazi. Here's some of their exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (through translator): Did anyone from the American and Libyan government get in touch with you?

AHMED ABU KHATTALA, SUSPECT (through translator): Never.

DAMON (through translator): Never?

KHATTALA (through translator): Never.

DAMON (through translator): No American official or Libyan official tried to contact you?

KHATTALA (through translator): Even the investigative team did not try to contact me.

DAMON (through translator): You're talking about the FBI team?

KHATTALA: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Well, let's talk about this long-waited capture for the Benghazi attacks with Jen Psaki, spokeswoman for the U.S. State Department.

JEN PSAKI, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESWOMAN: Hi, Jake.

TAPPER: Jen, good to see you as always.

I don't expect that you understood that. We were Chyroning it. But the short story there is that our own Arwa Damon found Abu Khattala in a coffee shop. He said he had not been contacted by any American investigators.

Now, earlier today, you were -- you called this irrelevant. But I'm not trying to be flip here. Why did it take long to get him if journalists were able to find him more than a year ago?

PSAKI: Jake, the factors that the president of the United States and the national security team look at when they're about to undertake operations like this one are, is it ready to go and is it prepared to succeed?

And what we're looking at here is this individual has now been detained, and it was a successful operation. We know there's ample precedent for journalists interviewing terrorists or other individuals. But there are a range of factors the United States government has to look at before taking action.

TAPPER: Can you give us an idea of what those factors are? Did you have to get the permission of the government of Libya? Did -- I mean, what kind of factors are you talking about?

PSAKI: Well, the Libyan government obviously has been well aware of our desire in tracking down and holding those who are responsible for the terrible attacks on September 11 accountable.

That's what we have done in this case. But this was a U.S.-run operation, a unilateral operation run by the United States, but, again, we wanted to make sure this would have a successful outcome to the degree possible. We did and we have.

TAPPER: Jen, we're told that Khattala will be moved to the U.S. in the coming days. Presumably, when he arrives here, he will be read his Miranda rights. He will be told he has the right to remain silent, the right to the an attorney.

I assume that we are getting as much intelligence, the U.S. government is getting as much intelligence from him before that have transfer is made. Why then transfer him in the coming days? Why not get as much as we -- as the U.S. government can over the next few weeks or months?

PSAKI: Well, without getting into details here, Jake, we make every effort to the obtain as much actionable interrogation as we can in these cases.

These operations and this component of it is run by the Department of Justice, and they are taking every step necessary to ensure he's brought to justice.

TAPPER: Right.

Their priority right now is prosecuting him. But, obviously, there's an intelligence prerogative as well to find out as much as can be found. And I'm saying, why not delay the Justice Department part of this until that -- until as much intelligence has been gleaned as possible?

We were told by the National Security Council earlier today that the transfer is going to take place in the coming days. That might seem rather quick in terms of intelligence-gathering.

PSAKI: Well, we weigh a range of factors, and including being able to obtain actionable intelligence, as all of these decisions are made. But, you know, our effort here and our focus here is also holding him accountable for his involvement in the terrible attacks from September 11.

TAPPER: I want to turn to Iraq in the few minutes we have left.

Mosul fell more than a week ago -- or a week ago today, I believe, Tikrit fell last Wednesday. Baqubah is in danger of falling today. Just moments ago in Brazil, Vice President Joe Biden said -- quote -- "Urgent assistance is clearly required for Iraq."

What more information does President Obama need before a decision is made?

PSAKI: Well, Jake, obviously, the president doesn't make decisions lightly. We have been increasing our assistance. He's considering a range of options. No decision has been made.

But what we're looking at is the need for a comprehensive approach, which involves, first and foremost, the Iraqi government. No outside government, not the United States, not any country, can make this situation better for them. So, we will weigh a range of factors and we will give the president room to make his decision.

TAPPER: Secretary of State Kerry, your boss, it was an open secret that he wanted more aggressive, more airstrikes I guess is the correct term against ISIS -- I'm sorry -- against the Syrian government in last year's debate. But would that not have potentially helped ISIS, which is now gaining ground?

Isn't this also confusing that any airstrike might have huge blowback potential in a way that we can't even predict?

PSAKI: Well, Jake, as the president and the national security team consider options on the table, they consider all the factors. There's no question here that the overflow of violence from Syria is a huge contributing factor, if not the factor, to what we're seeing in Iraq now.

We have increased what -- the assistance we're giving and what we're doing for the opposition in Syria, and, obviously, we have increased what we're doing in Iraq as well. But we weigh all of the factors here. And one of the reasons we're focused on a comprehensive approach is because we feel the political component here, the need for more inclusivity, the need to turn back from a sectarian way of governing, is how we will see a long-term success in Iraq.

TAPPER: Jen Psaki, thank you so much.

PSAKI: Thank you, Jake.

TAPPER: When we come back: another bloody assault under way on a major Iraqi city, as terrorists close in on their final target, Baghdad. Our own Anderson Cooper is inside the capital. We will go live to Anderson next.

Plus, the reason I'm here at the Newseum today, CNN's exclusive town hall with Hillary Clinton, where she will answer your questions. We're just minutes away from the start of that event. Stay with us.

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TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD.

In world news, getting closer to the doorsteps of Baghdad. Militants with a terrorist group, the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, known as ISIS, they are now fighting for the control of the city of Baqubah, less than 40 miles from Baghdad.

You know how close Fort Worth is to Dallas? That's roughly how close these murderous extremists are to the capital of Iraq.

Our own Anderson Cooper, host of "A.C. 360," joins us now live from Baghdad.

Anderson, we know the security has been beefed up around the U.S. Embassy there. What other preparations are you seeing? Is there a sense of fear over these approaching militants?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: There's certainly a lot of concern, certainly a lot of uncertainty.

I was driving around the city earlier today. And, I mean, it is -- there's security everywhere in this city. As you know -- you have been here plenty of times -- there's security here always. But I have never seen it like this. Every block or so, there are military, there are police on streets. There are checkpoints. They're pulling over vehicles asking young men to get out of vehicles, looking at -- checking papers.

We had our papers checked multiple times just driving several blocks in the city. So, there's a real sense of concern about what is happening, as you said, less than 40 miles from the gates of Baghdad.

TAPPER: Anderson, Iraqi security forces outnumber ISIS fighters 100

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN'S "ANDERSON COOPER 360" HOST: There are checkpoints pulling over vehicles, asking young men to get out of vehicles, looking at -- checking papers. We had our papers checked multiple times driving several blocks in the city.

So, there's a real sense of concern about what is happening. As you said, less than 40 miles from the gates of Baghdad.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Anderson, Iraqi security forces outnumber ISIS fighters 100 to one. How is ISIS beneath them?

COOPER: Yes. I mean, that is -- that's the million dollar question. I talked to Dexter Filkins who's on your show the other day as well. He said he believed it was a question of morale among Iraqi forces.

There's also a real question of leadership. Just today on Iraqi television, Nouri al Maliki has said he's fired four top military commanders because they deserted their post. There's a lot of concern about quality of some of the leadership in the Iraqi military, how they got their positions and their abilities on the battlefield.

And as you know, when -- you know, that filters down and troops don't have confidence in leadership, they don't have confidence on the battlefield. A lot of these ISIS fighters are hardened. They've been fighting for years now in Syria. They're trained and they've come back here.

And also in a lot of areas, it's Sunni dominated areas in Mosul and elsewhere that -- you know, it's not just ISIS fighters. There are other Sunni groups involved here and they're able to use the local population and have the support of the local population at this point in ways that the Shia government fighters don't.

TAPPER: And, Anderson, tell us about the violence in Baghdad today. Was this at all related to this crisis with is?

COOPER: Yes. I mean, six bombs went off in Baghdad today. Five of them were roadside bombs, one, a car bomb in Sadr City. Obviously, a huge concern. I mean, that's one of the stunning things, Jake, with all the security layers here in the city and all these checkpoints, the fact six bombs were able to go off today, a dozen people at least, according to Iraqi police, were killed, dozens of others were injured.

It's just a sign of how tense things here are and that it's not just a question of militia fighters on the outskirts of Baghdad, but it's people, terrorists organized groups who are already in the capital and able to carry out actions.

TAPPER: Anderson Cooper in Baghdad, thank you, my friend. Stay safe.

We've just heard the latest out of Iraq, now to break do you know how the U.S. should proceed is Ambassador Richard Haass, president of the Council on Foreign Relations and, of course, author of the book "War of Necessity, War of Choice: A Memoir of Two Iraq Wars."

Richard, great to see you as always.

Let's start with the report issued today by the progressive think tank, the Center for American Progress. They're saying that the U.S. should prepare for measures including possible air strikes. This group CAP, the Center for American Progress, they have a very close relationship with the White House. It's almost a revolving door in terms of people working there and working at the White House.

Do you think this is reading the tea leaves, an indication of where the president is heading?

RICHARD HAASS, PRESIDENT, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Look, at some point we're likely to do airstrikes. The real question is, what's the context? Imagine this was just another terrorist group, I'm talking about ISIS operating in some no-man's land either in Syria or Iraq. That's the sort of thing we do airstrikes or drone strikes or even Special Forces missions against. We probably do that, Jake, in what, 10, 15, 20 countries.

The bigger question is whether we would do airstrikes somehow in concert with an Iranian-backed government in Baghdad. And I think that's a much more complicated and more controversial issue. But counterterrorist strikes, why not?

TAPPER: Last week on THE LEAD, you said that if you were advising President Obama, you would be very careful about direct military support. Obviously, that was last week. That was a lifetime ago. Do you still think that? Is it possible to handle the situation without direct military support?

HAASS: I think so, because what you're going to have already is massive Iranian support for the Maliki government, so-called Shia volunteers will flock to Baghdad and the outskirts. So, what you're seeing is essentially the dismantlement of Iraq. And I do think with Iranian backing, the government which is very much in the service of Iran and is very sensitive, if you will, to sectarian issues will probably survive. The Kurds have gone their own way in the north. You have this no-man's land in the northwest, which will be this kind of counter-terrorism zone.

So I would limit -- at the moment, I would limit U.S. efforts to going after them as if they were a terrorist group anywhere else.

TAPPER: The U.S. public has gotten a nasty lesson in the concept of blowback in the last 15 years. One of the things that we're hearing here a lot in Washington, D.C., and I'm sure you're hearing a lot too at the Council on Foreign Relations is the idea if we do not act, if the United States does not do the military strikes, the blowback could be that ISIS gains strength and ISIS fighters come to the U.S., start attacking the U.S. homeland.

What's the blowback if the U.S. does strike? What are the risks on that side? HAASS: Well, if we do do strikes, hopefully we would do them to

weaken ISIS in Syria. That's the reason that I argued for doing strikes in Syria when Mr. Assad didn't do things with -- didn't give up his chemical weapons. We should be arming the non-radical opposition in Syria, which by the way, we give ISIS a flank to worry about back in Syria.

But we're going to having blowback either way, Jake. What you put your finger on the fact that these guys are going to Syria or Iraq. This is now, if you will, the new Afghanistan. This is their graduate school. We've got to assume these people are going to return to Europe, elsewhere in the Middle East or the United States, with some skills and with even more radicalism. I think we have to gird ourselves for that. And that's probably going to happen now whether we do air strikes or drone strikes or not.

TAPPER: It's been pointed out, of course, that the war in Iraq there were no Islamic militants in Iraq when the war started in 2003. The kind that we're talking about now in ISIS, and there's no small irony to that. But we've seen a lot of former Bush officials talking about the controversy and the chaos in Iraq. Former deputy defense secretary Paul Wolfowitz was on MSNBC earlier saying that stopping ISIS was, quote, "about preventing another 9/11."

I know that you believe that there is a potential terrorist threat from the ISIS if they succeed in taking Iraq and if they succeed in thriving in Syria. But is that overstating is the case, do you think, another 9/11?

HAASS: That's a worst possible case. But these guys are setting up shop in Syria and parts of Iraq. They're not unique, by the way. You've probably got a dozen countries in Africa and the Middle East where the central governments are unable or unwilling to police their own territory.

We've got to assume that some of these individuals will get on airplanes and some of them will get through our security and police systems. That's just -- that's what life is like. But that doesn't necessarily argue for specific action.

Also, I think it's important to realize that what we've done is set in motion in the Middle East over the years a set of policies where we help destroy existing authorities, and we've helped create vacuums where groups like this now are able to gain traction and pose a threat. We've also created a situation, say, in Iraq where a country like Iran has a lot more influence than it did. It ought to make us very cautious in the future.

We've got to play chess and not checkers in thinking through the strategic consequences of what it is we're prepared to do as bad as things are, what the Middle East teaches us is the need to be careful because things can get worse.

TAPPER: Indeed. Richard Haass, author of "War of Necessity, War of Choice: A Memoir of Two Wars", president of the Council on Foreign Relations -- thank you so much as always. Coming up, a direct hit. Two massive tornadoes ripping through one

town. We are on the ground in Nebraska where one resident tells us she hid in a bank vault as the building crumbled around her. That story, next.

Plus, we're getting closer to the start of CNN's exclusive town hall with Hillary Clinton. Nothing is off-limits as she answers your questions. That's coming right up.

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