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The Lead with Jake Tapper

U.S. Official: Airstrikes Attacking ISIS Oil Targets

Aired September 24, 2014 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS, FOUNDATION FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: They've been around for a while and even though the beheading is absolutely gruesome it's also not very strategic because frankly, the French probably would have paid them a lot of money to let him go, number one. And number two, this means they're going to be at the very top of the Algerian counterterrorism radar.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: That's right. The French are derided by U.S. officials for paying those ransoms. Fran Townsend, David Gartenstein- Ross. Thank you so much. Stay with us, if you would.

Coming up, the U.S. military calling the recent strikes against ISIS a success, but what exactly has been accomplished in terms of stopping the terrorist group or wounding it? We'll take a closer look at the reality on the ground next. Plus, he supported arming the Syrian rebels. But he admits these weapons could get into the hands of ISIS. So what then? We'll ask the ranking Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee coming up.

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TAPPER: Welcome back to "The Lead." I'm Jake Tapper continuing with our world lead. We are currently monitoring the skies over Iraq and Syria for any fresh airstrikes as President Obama chairs a meeting of the U.N. Security Council. Military commanders say U.S. Forces conducted five strikes overnight. For more on what targets have been struck and a little perspective on whether this campaign is working, let's bring in CNN's Tom Foreman. Tom, walk us through what we know about the targets hit so far.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Look at all of the areas that have been hit in just the past few days here, Jake. The strike over Khorasan is way over here, that other terror group, but the rest of this has all been aimed at ISIS and despite the talk about a coalition, almost all of this is the work of the U.S. military. Indeed, less than one out of every ten bombs or so is coming from coalition planes in very modest form, does modest efforts all focused over here on the eastern side of the country where the Syrian military is weak to nonexistent.

Still, in terms of the overall effort, look at this, ISIS has been pounded. This shows the frequency of bombings since early August and as you can see, hardly a day has passed that U.S. missiles have not fall own targets out there, Jake. TAPPER: So if we know how many bombs have been dropped, where -- and

we know where they've been hit, but reality check, what's been accomplished with these bombings? Have they been successful?

FOREMAN: Well, let's look at this other set of maps to get some perspective on this. Back in late July, if you take a look at this, this red land in here is what ISIS controlled. The yellow is where they had great influence. Since then, buildings have been attacked, equipment destroyed, ISIS fighters killed, but they're a flexible fighting force that is embedded in the civilian population, so now I want you to look very closely at this map today as I change it to where we stand right now. This is it before. This is it now. Virtually nothing changes, Jake. A couple of little lines move here and there. That's the difficulty.

TAPPER: Tom, how is that possible the military is the most advanced in the world using some of the most advanced weaponry. Why isn't that having more of an impact?

FOREMAN: Yeah, that's absolutely true. Not only that, but when you look at these weapons the Pentagon basically says that somewhere around 96 percent of everything being dropped from tomahawk cruise missiles, from the F-22 Raptor, from all of these planes, everything being dropped out there is a precision-guided munition meant to bring a lot of state-of-the-art power to bear on the enemy, but military analysts point out air power can only go so far when you go into a whole country like this and you're trying to root out, as I said, a flexible fighting force like ISIS especially when it's in the middle of a civilian population, add to that the complexity of operating in hostile airspace where the Syrian military could decide to weigh in at any point and you have the formula for that long, slow campaign the White House keeps talking about, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Tom Foreman, thank you so much.

Breaking news now, airstrikes have resumed in Syria. Let's bring in CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr. Barbara, what do you know?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake at this hour a senior U.S. official is confirming to CNN U.S. and coalition warplanes are back in the air over eastern Syria. This time they're attacking in a very remote area of eastern Syria at this hour. They're attacking ISIS oil installations. What we are told is there are a number of small, modular, if you will, oil refinery installations that ISIS uses to refine the oil. It smuggles the money. It earns itself about $2 million a day.

U.S. and coalition warplanes now are attacking a number of sites, about a dozen targets we're told with precision weapons. I ask the question why aren't we seeing the oil fires and I am told we will see oil fires. The facilities are small. They do not believe there are civilians in the area because it is so remote, but this should become more visible in the coming hours. This from a senior administration official.

The Pentagon Press Secretary Rear Admiral John Kirby who we all know so well, has just at this hour put out a very brief, very non-descript statement saying, quote, "I can confirm that U.S. military and the Arab partner forces are undertaking additional strikes today against ISIL terrorists in Syria. Those operation are ongoing so we will not provide additional details at this time. The Pentagon expects to provide additional details in the coming hours that we have confirmed with a senior official, these attacks under way right now are against ISIS oil installations. Obviously, the U.S. is trying to cut off ISIS's supply of cash. Jake.

TAPPER: Barbara, stay right there. I want to bring in CNN's chief national security correspondent. Jim Sciutto who is at the United Nations. Jim, obviously, one of the reasons why U.S. officials and other Western officials have been so concerned about ISIS is because of this tremendous influx of money, which they get through many means, corruption, ransoms, but also $2 million estimated a day from oilfields in northern and mid-west Iraq as well as eastern Syria. If what we're hearing now is true that the U.S. is striking and the coalition is striking at some of these plants that is clearly intended to put a dent in their finances.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: No question. One of the group's greatest strengths, frankly, Jake, is that it has so many sources of funding from inside the country selling oil, also from inside the country and as you mentioned ransom. They've robbed some banks. But coming from outside the country, as well. Groups masquerading as charities that are funding -- that are sending both funding and fighters to ISIS and other terror groups in the region. So in effect today you see the Obama administration going after two sources of ISIS funding.

One now those oil installations with these air strikes, but two, earlier, when you saw the president before the U.N. Security Council, this new, law-binding, legally binding resolution requiring all of the U.N.'s member nations, more than 193 of them to act, to stop funding - and fighters getting to ISIS. It's a legally binding resolution. As you know, Jake, there are a lot of countries involved here and some of whom are punitively allies of the U.S. and Qatar included who have been accused of allowing that money to go to ISIS either directly or indirectly turning a blind eye. The president calling on those nations now to stop that. So, you see in effect going after it from both sides, ISIS from both sides today, from the air attacking those oil installations here at the U.N., legally from outside the country, stopping the many groups that get funding to it from other countries.

TAPPER: Let's go to Tom Foreman right now who is at the magic board and can give us an idea of the geography of this. Tom, my understanding is that right now ISIS controls is about 60 percent of Syria's oil production because of the oilfields in the east, then, of course, you have about 25,000 barrels a day coming from the Iraqi fields that ISIS controls in the north and mid-west. Show us exactly what we're talking about.

FOREMAN: Well, over here, this is the border down here between Iraq and Syria. This is the eastern area that they have to be talking about right now. And I do want to note something. If you go right up into this area, you get to the town of Raqqa, which is about a quarter million people and here, if you zoom in, Jake, you can see there are real oil facilities, big ones there and we have to understand that this area is under the control of ISIS you have to ask whether or not this which appears to be an oil facility from above, an oil refinery from above, whether or not this is involved in the long game here. They eventually move to bigger facilities like this as opposed to out there in the open countryside where as Barbara described, you might be talking about some sort of portable or smaller refinery facilities, Jake.

TAPPER: Barbara Starr, I want to ask you if you are getting any more specificity about where exactly these strikes are taking place and how big a campaign this is to go after these oil targets, whether it's fields, whether it's refineries and whether it's all of the above.

STARR: At this hour, what we are told is this remote area in eastern Syria. There is a place called Marqada which is one of the areas along with several other targets in this region where there are a number of these very small oil refineries that the U.S. and the coalition are hitting right now. A very well known to be an oil area in eastern Syria. I think that the U.S. is being very careful at this point to hit these smaller refineries. There is no interest, obviously, in causing an environmental disaster here. That would be very difficult for the U.S. to decide to do, but what you are seeing, Jake, is the U.S. military and the coalition hitting a very unique target set, a terrorist target set, hitting these oil installations to cut off their cash flow.

The other day, hitting buildings, but only a communications array to cut off their communications so they can't talk amongst themselves, so they can't pass orders back and forth, hitting staging areas not where ISIS operations may be underway, but hitting areas where they gather trucks, vehicles and personnel so they can get them before they cross the border into Iraq and try and gain more territory. It's this goal of the coalition to cut off ISIS's ability to fund itself, to weaponize, to get its people out in the field moving around. At least in Iraq they say that ISIS is already going to ground.

We'll see how fast they do that on the Syria side and how the U.S. will be able to continue to chase them down, but you know, keep in mind, against al Qaeda in Iraq or the Taliban in Afghanistan, we didn't see these kind of economic targets. This is something very different to cut off their cash flow.

TAPPER: Let's go to Fran Townsend, former Bush Homeland Security adviser and CNN contributor. Fran, you are getting some new information. What are you hearing?

FRAN TOWNSEND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: You know, Jake, it's interesting. We know there was a number of coalition partners that have participated in the initial airstrikes. Among those in the Arab world is the United Arab Emirates.

We are hearing and sources are starting to confirm although I must say the Emirates has not yet confirmed this that one of the pilots that participated in that first night of airstrikes was a female pilot. You know, I will tell you. The crown prince of the United Arab Emirates has been a huge supporter of women's rights and women's participation in their military.

It would be very significant that the UAE chose quite intentionally to include a female pilot against an Islamic extremist group like ISIS that treats women so badly that uses rape as a weapon of war, very significant especially in the Muslim world.

TAPPER: Joining us now, CNN military analyst, Lt. Col. Rick Francona. Colonel, what's your reaction to hearing about these targets, these apparently economic targets by going after oilfields that ISIS has been controlling and is getting reportedly up to $2 million a day for controlling this oil.

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, this is a smart thing to do for several reasons. One, it does hurt their economics and it follows what they hit on the first night, they hit their finance center.

So following up on that, they hit these oil refineries that provide a lot of this elicit oil. These installations are generally not in cities. They're out in the desert and usually remote. The likelihood of collateral damage and civilian casualties is minimized and given the hour, that's probably a good thing.

So I think these are good targets to hit, safer targets to hit and it will probably have a pretty immediate impact on this. Now all of those oil installations out in Syria generally sit between Raqqa and Qaaim and this is a good target set to go after.

TAPPER: Jim Sciutto, CNN chief national security correspondent outside the U.N. right now. This really shows, this strike going after ISIS oil targets, Jim, this really shows the breadth of this terrorist group. Why it is so feared even if two months ago nobody in the United States public had really heard of ISIS or ISIL. Why the U.S. government has been taking it so seriously especially of late?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: That's right. This group, ISIS is a group that has advantages and strengths that no other terror group has ever had in our experience. It is holding territory like an army. We're seeing that in both Iraq and Syria.

It has its own funding sources. Not just funding coming from outside of the country and usual suspects and false charity, et cetera, but it runs like a business. That's another advantage. So as you see, these air strikes play out.

The target set as the military calls them is going to be much broader than you would see in a typical campaign. They can't just go after machine guns mounted on the back of pickup trucks, et cetera. They have to go after their funding sources, oil installations.

In effect, Jake, you're watching an attack on a country here. Not just a terror group. It's the way you see an air campaign in the broader war against the country. You'd go after its economic assets as well as its military assets and think World War II bombing campaigns where you're bombing factories and ports, et cetera.

ISIS is such a formidable group that you can't any just after their training centers and command and control, et cetera. You have to go after their economy. They have their own economy. It really shows the breadth, the strength of this group.

TAPPER: Joining me now Senator Saxby Chambliss of Georgia. He is the ranking Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee. Senator, thanks for coming on today. First, I want to get your reaction to these new airstrikes apparently going after ISIS oil targets, refineries possibly oilfields, as well.

SEN. SAXBY CHAMBLISS (R), GEORGIA: These targets have been identified over the last several weeks. We've been flying ISR --

TAPPER: Surveillance.

CHAMBLISS: Yes. Targets that would cause the least amount of collateral damage, but yet seek to really do damage to the infrastructure of ISIL and in all probability, the attacks at the Pentagon is now confirming we're against these portable refineries or these movable refineries that are small in nature.

But they are pretty significant and again, it's smart to keep them in their pocketbook where they have been successful thus far. So I suspect that's probably what the Pentagon will ultimately confirm and I think that's the right thing to do.

TAPPER: Senator, what in addition to the money that ISIS has been able to bring in, reportedly $2 million a day from controlling these oilfields and also several millions from ransoms and kidnappings. What are the other reasons why the world is so terrified and why leaders are so concerned about ISIS? What makes them different from any other terrorist group?

CHAMBLISS: Well, they're an off-shoot of al Qaeda, but frankly, the leader, Baghdadi was actually kicked out of al Qaeda because he was too extreme for the leadership in al Qaeda. So we've seen the viciousness of the group and we heard, as Fran talked earlier, the way they rye to intimidate individuals, groups as well as leadership of countries and they will continue to do that.

We don't react in the right way. ISIL is a terrorist group just like al Qaeda, Al Shabaab and Boko Haram and all of these groups that are being talked about, but the fact is they operate under a different M.O. than any of those groups.

And that M.O. is we're going to be the nastiest guys around and don't get in our way. That's why I think it's important that we take them head-on, we hit their infrastructure and we hit their logistic centers and we hit depos.

Those are the types of structures that have been identified over the last few weeks and we'll continue to go after.

TAPPER: Senator, stay with us for one second. I am told Barbara Starr at the Pentagon has some new information and I just want to go to her. Barbara, what can you tell us?

STARR: Well, Jake, we're getting a few more details here. What we're looking at is U.S. and coalition aircraft including aircraft from the United Arab Emirates hitting about a dozen targets in eastern Syria in a very remote area. We are told these remote targets and these oil refineries, if you will, are east and south of Raqqa.

Raqqa, of course, being the strong hold of the ISIS leadership. These are small, modular refineries, we are told, way out in the desert and not near civilian populations. The calculation that we talked about a minute ago that ISIS is earning itself about $2 million a day from this illegal and criminal oil smuggling operation.

They're refining, we are told about 300 to 500 barrels a day. Relatively speaking in the oil market, that is a very small amount, of course. It doesn't impact oil prices on the market as you and I would know it around the world, but it is impacting the oil business in that area.

And a lot of people out there have been very, very upset about ISIS, aside from their criminal enterprise and terrorism activity, their economic activity. Basically, this is money stolen from legitimate oil business in the region.

So again, what we are getting to is the U.S. and the coalition and the Arab nations, many of them oil producers and oil refiners in their own rights. Now really prosecuting the campaign against ISIS economic targets and against their oil business and this is really the next step.

The U.S. knew about these targets and I want to point that out. They didn't get to them in that very first round. It's not be that they just discovered them.

This was known to be out there and this is a set of targets that the U.S. and the coalition wanted to get to. They couldn't get to everything on the first night, but they've gotten to it now.

TAPPER: Joining us on the phone right now is Lt. General Mark Hertling, the CNN military analyst. General, tell us what you think the significance is of the coalition going after these apparently portable oil refineries that ISIS has been using as part of their influx of millions of dollars?

LT. GENERAL MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST (via telephone): Jake, a couple of things. First, I compliment both Barbara and Colonel Francona because they were on target. When I was in Northern Iraq, it was also an area of emphasis for us because al Qaeda at the time was stealing oil from the refinery and intimidating the truck drivers and using the stolen oil to fund their operations.

When you are talking about a group like ISIS in Syria having their own refineries, you would see that this is certainly part of a strategic offensive air campaign. You not only have to stop this money flow, which is significant as Barbara just pointed out. But it's also them attempting to establish part of their infrastructure. So that's really the objective of ISIS is to establish their own state in the areas of Syria and Iraq and any time you hit the infrastructure that prevent them from doing that, it's a good thing.

The economy piece of this is a significant part and they're using that money not only to fund their operations, but to pay their fighters and to pay the Jihadis and in Turkey, in Syria and places they're coming into. So this is part of the overall campaign, the strategic objective to stopping the economy of this state.

TAPPER: I want to bring back Senator Saxby Chambliss, ranking Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee. Senator, one thing I'm wondering as we're sitting here watching these strikes. Some of the oil targets that are controlled by ISIS, but certainly there are many more.

How long do you think this war is going to go on? You have access to top-secret, classified information. You have an idea of how strong ISIS truly is. Do you think that we're going to be covering these airstrikes and airstrikes like this in months, in years? How long?

CHAMBLISS: Well, airstrikes can do a significant amount of damage. We're all very aware of that, but airstrikes are not going to win this conflict. Ultimately, they're going to have to be boots on the ground and if you notice the president danced around that very carefully today.

He said from the beginning that there will be no U.S. boots on the ground, but the fact of the matter is we've got about 1,700 boots on the ground in Iraq right now in an advisory capacity.

But the one thing he didn't say is who is going on provide those boots? And that's, frankly, I think, the next step. I'm very confident that the administration is having success in talking to our Arab friends who have joined this fight.

I think it's pretty amazing that the administration has been able on get the coalition they have of the Arab neighbors to join us from the standpoint of the airstrikes.

Now the next move is we have to have those Arab neighbors join in by providing boots on the ground to root these folks out and who knows, Jake? This thing could last months and months, conceivably it could last years, but this is not going to be an easy fight.

Senator Saxby Chambliss of Georgia, thank you so much. Let's bring back former Obama White House press secretary, Jay Carney, and "Weekly Standard" editor, Bill Kristol who have been joining us for this hour as this breaking news has erupted.

Jay, you heard Senator Chambliss say there need to be boots on the ground and hopefully Arab allies. I spoke with the former Jordanian foreign minister yesterday. He said there is no appetite among the Arab allies to have any boots on the ground. Marco Rubio has told me yesterday, a Republican senator from Florida,

the president is going have to tell the American people we need U.S. boots on the ground, U.S. combat troops on the ground.

JAY CARNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think the fact that our Arab coalition allies are reluctant to put boots on the ground is true. I think if you had surveyed them a few weeks ago they were reluctant to engage in airstrikes, which they are now doing under U.S. leadership and that's a positive development as the senator was saying.

I think that the president's careful language today was a good thing. I think that we need to be a little more clear about what U.S. troop presence we're talking about, advisers, special operators and it's not zero boots on the ground.

What he has conveyed and what he means is we're not anything to invade and occupy either Iraq or Syria, but I think it's absolutely the case that that doesn't mean there won't be any Americans on the ground -- Bill.

BILL KRISTOL, FOUNDER, "THE WEEKLY STANDARD": Two months ago we couldn't get involved in Iraq ever. One month ago, we certainly can't get involved in Syria, now we're bombing at least some ISIS assets if Syria. It may degrade ISIS a little and they control Raqqa and Syria, and we need to destroy this organization, I think and that will mean a real war not just some air war against oil.

TAPPER: I'm happy he's doing what he's doing.

CARNEY: You won't see a land invasion again in Iraq and a massive occupation under this president. Ultimately, the army that was trained up by the United States military, by General Petraeus and others has to do that job.

KRISTOL: With advisers embedded.

CARNEY: I don't -- I don't -- I don't disagree with that at all.

KRISTOL: That's what everyone's calling for.

CARNEY: But that's different from the idea of an invasion and occupation for sustained on --

KRISTOL: He's going to get dragged into eventually sending in the 20,000 troops to destroy ISIS.

CARNEY: What is true is the Iraqi army is more capable than we saw earlier this year. What they need is quality leadership.

TAPPER: All right, Jay Carney, Bill Kristol, thank you so much. Thanks to all our guests this hour. Thanks to our viewers around the world for watching.

That's it for THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. I'll turn you over to Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM" live from the United Nations in New York and will continue with CNN's coverage, new airstrikes in Syria -- Wolf.