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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Interview With New York Congressman Peter King; ISIS Leader Killed?; President Obama Visits Asia; Obama Arrives to Elaborate Show in China; Interview with Senator-Elect Thom Tillis of North Carolina

Aired November 10, 2014 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: How do you hunt one of the most dangerous men on the planet when you cannot even know for sure after you got him?

I'm Jake Tapper. This is THE LEAD.

The world lead. Is he dead or alive? U.S. airstrikes target the leader of is. He may have been killed. He may have been critically wounded. Maybe he was a little wounded, maybe not even that. With hardly any intelligence on the ground in Iraq, how can the U.S. know?

Also in world news, spectacular fireworks displays, elaborate theatrical performances, and President Obama dressed as if he's kind of on the "Star Trek" landing party. Either the Chinese really pulled out all the stops today or we're also having the same really weird dream.

And the national lead. Something called a bomb cyclone can't be a good thing. Frigid cold whips down into the U.S., as millions brace for an arctic blast. And it's not even Thanksgiving yet.

Good afternoon, everybody. Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We're going to begin with the world lead and a flurry of conflicting accounts on the fate of the evil mastermind behind the terrorist group ISIS. The coalition seems disturbingly underinformed, shall we say, about where its bombs are going and whom exactly they are or are not hitting.

What we know for sure is that the Pentagon says U.S. airstrikes took place targeting ISIS leaders near Mosul. But what's not been confirmed is whether the head of ISIS Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, survived those strikes or if he was even in that convoy to begin with.

And in lieu of any true intelligence gathering, most of the information trickling out has seem to have come from social media with reports of al-Baghdadi's death circulating on Twitter from unconfirmed or phony accounts. Iraq's minister of interior took to Facebook yesterday announcing that the leader had been severely wounded.

But that statement has not been backed up by Iraq's prime minister or Iraq's minister of defense.

Let's bring in CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr.

Barbara, what is the Pentagon saying about these airstrikes targeting ISIS leaders? What do we know?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, very little in the way of facts. Right now, U.S. military intelligence is looking at all the rumors and trying to sort it all out.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STARR (voice-over): Confusion about the fate of the elusive leader of ISIS. Iraqi TV broadcast a statement that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, head of ISIS, was wounded in an Iraqi airstrike on Saturday at the town of al-Qaim on the border with Syria. A senior U.S. intelligence tells CNN the Iraqis did have intelligence that he was in that border town.

U.S. officials now believe it's less likely Baghdadi was wounded or killed 250 miles away in Mosul, where coalition warplanes hit a convoy of 10 ISIS armed trucks. Rumors surfaced soon after that that Baghdadi was there. The U.S. said the strike targeted a meeting of ISIS leaders, but the outcome was unclear.

JEN PSAKI, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESWOMAN: We cannot confirm if ISIL leader Baghdadi was among those present.

STARR: The U.S. is now scouring phone intercepts, reports from locals on the ground, anything for intelligence confirming Baghdadi may have been killed or wounded. Even if the coalition wounded or killed him, the war against ISIS still is far from over.

BRIG. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: It will morph and new leaders will emerge. In fact, bear in mind that ISIS leadership originated from Saddam's military. These are very conventionally trained, very professional leaders.

STARR: President Obama says his decision to send 1,500 more troops to Iraq to train Iraqi forces is about getting them on the offense against ISIS.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Now what we need is ground troops, Iraqi ground troops that can start pushing them back.

STARR: But even some of the president's own Democrats skeptical the Iraqi government is up to the essential challenge of winning back Sunnis who have turned to ISIS out of distrust with Baghdad.

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D), CONNECTICUT: These 1,500 troops are ultimately just going to be a temporary Band-Aid if there isn't a fully inclusive government inside Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STARR: And if all that isn't enough, another marker today, Jake, 50 U.S. troops landed back in Anbar province west of Baghdad at Al Asad Air Base. They will work there trying to set up an operation for even more U.S. troops to go in as advisers, part of that effort to push ISIS back, part of the U.S. effort to help, but U.S. troops back on the ground in Anbar after leaving more than three years ago -- Jake.

TAPPER: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon, thank you.

So how big a deal would it be if al-Baghdadi were wounded or killed? Joining me from New York is Republican Congressman Peter King, former chair of the Homeland Security Committee and a member of the House Select Committee on Intelligence.

Congressman King, good to see you as always.

REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK: Thank you, Jake.

TAPPER: At this point, what on-the-ground intelligence do we have on this airstrike that may or may not have taken out the ISIS leader?

KING: Jake, we have very little intelligence at all in Iraq.

That's one of the hazards, one of the results of taking all our troops out in 2011. That pretty much effectively ended both defense intelligence, central intelligence. We have virtually no intelligence on the ground at all.

So I think what we're going to be looking for now is what you pick up in social media, what we can get from any sources we may have in the -- anywhere in that area. But it's going to be difficult. We don't have the intelligence assets that we had prior to our troops being withdrawn.

TAPPER: If Baghdadi has been wounded or killed, how much, in your estimation, would that affect the day-to-day operations of ISIS? Wasn't someone else just take his place?

KING: Well, he has deputies, Turkmani and Anbari. They are deputies of his and they could probably stand in.

But the fact is, I think it would be a significant short-term effect to have such an outspoken leader as this, a dynamic leader as this taken out. I think, in the short-term, it would create an opening for us to take advantage of it. It also could have a demoralizing impact on ISIS.

But, again, that would probably last just a few weeks or so. But it would give us a window of opportunity and it would also show people in the area that ISIS is not invulnerable, that the U.S. can get anyone it goes after, just like we got bin Laden. So, it would be both psychological and also I think a short-term tactical victory.

TAPPER: The U.S. has been sending troops and officials from the CIA and others to Iraq for a few months now. Do you find it at all troubling that we still know so little about what's going on, on the ground there? This is Iraq we're talking about, not Syria.

KING: Yes, but, again, in Iraq, we pulled all our troops outs and we're talking about areas now that ISIS has taken over.

And they have land mass both in Syria and Iraq larger than the size of Great Britain. So, no, this is unfortunately a necessary result from what -- President Obama's policy of withdrawing all our troops. Yes, we have a small number now in the country. That's not going to be anywhere near enough to get the intelligence that we need either to carry out prospective airstrikes or to find out, again, what the dimensions of ISIS are.

TAPPER: What have you heard about why President Obama is doubling down in terms of the number of U.S. troops in Iraq? I have heard that it's because of this need for more human intelligence. I have also heard it's speculated by a general that it's because the U.S. once again overestimated the strength of the Iraqi military. What's your understanding of why there are going to be 3,000 U.S. troops in Iraq soon?

KING: My estimate is that it's all of the above. I think the president was wrong in the first place to say he wasn't going to put forces on the ground. There's no way that airstrikes were ever going to be effective against ISIS.

Again, they have such a large land mass. They have 25,000 to 30,000 fighters and we're talking about maybe five or 10 airstrikes a day? Those are just again isolated attacks that are not going to -- yes, they can slow ISIS down in certain areas like in Northern Syria.

But the fact is, even there, we're seeing great inroads being made by ISIS. And in Iraq, it's slowing them down around somewhat around Mosul. But having said that, I think the president was wrong to make this pledge in the beginning not to put troops on the ground. He's realizing we do need them, I think, to be embedded with the Iraqi troops to provide training and coordination. We also need them to carry out special operations and we need them also to be spotters for the air attacks.

TAPPER: But President Obama has increased the number of troops there to be doing a lot of the things you just mentioned. Is there anything that you think U.S. forces need to be doing that they aren't currently doing or are about to do?

KING: I think we're going to need a greater amount of troops.

I don't see how 3,000 is going to be enough for all that he's talking about doing. If we are -- again, once the president gets a strategy -- he hasn't really come up with any strategy that's consistent. First, he said that there was no strategy. Then he said we're going to degrade and destroy.

Now he's saying he wants to isolate ISIS in Iraq, even though he had said last month that he was also going to go into Syria. I think until we get a coordinated strategy, it's hard to give an exact number that we need. But I think it's definitely going to be more than 3,000.

TAPPER: All right, Republican Congressman Peter King, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

KING: Jake, thank you.

TAPPER: It looked as though it could have been a scene out of the new "Hunger Games" movie, an over-the-top display complete with fireworks and music and synchronized dancing, even a virtual red carpet for cars, except this wasn't a Hollywood production. It was the welcoming ceremony for world leaders in Beijing, the great lengths that the country went to, to impress. That's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

Continuing with some world news, President Obama kicked off his trip to Asia today, first stop, Beijing, where attendees of an international summit there were greeted with a display that would make Las Vegas blush. The events included this photo of world leaders looking like something out of a magazine spreads. Who wore it best?

I know. I know. It's a tradition at these things. Less typical was the fanfare, as Beijing didn't seem to hold anything back.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER (voice-over): Today, Beijing rolled out its neon-bright welcome mat for President Obama and the other world leaders meeting in Beijing, a spectacular display and one that was a bit odd -- the carefully choreographed dancers, the precise laser lights, the matching outfits.

The last time we saw a public display quite like this was frankly in "The Hunger Games".

This is the bright and shiny face China wants the world to see. But it takes a lot of work to get here.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is wonderful to be back in China. And I'm grateful for the Chinese people's extraordinary hospitality.

TAPPER: Before President Obama's arrival, Chinese officials announced a six-day public holiday for central and city government employees which lasts until the summit is over. They will, of course, have to make up those days, working weekends after Obama is long gone.

Thus, gone went the crowds, farewell to the smog and the traffic. They disappeared, though, of course, there are worse ways people disappear in China. Here the crowds were replaced by heightened security and odd/even license plate traffic ban and even electric buses.

It's all reminiscent of the glamorous makeover the city underwent before its dazzling debut as the host of the 2008 Summer Olympics, 17,000 people worked then to build the innovative Bird's Nest stadium. Inside the summit today, China is setting out to upend its drab communist image with an unprecedented show of national pride and international sophistication.

But even that did not stop the president from telling China, they have to go beyond the surface to clean up their city. OBAMA: Steady sustainable growth requires a planet where citizens can

breathe clean air.

TAPPER: Today, President Obama still smarting from his American election night thumping was greeted warmly by Chinese President Xi Jinping.

Tomorrow, after yet another welcome ceremony, the two will have a private dinner to hash out the countries faced, beyond the glittery surface.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: Coming up, it was a hard-fought race that ended up being the most expensive Senate race in world history. More than $100 million spent. But was all that money worth it? We'll ask Senator-elect Thom Tillis next.

Plus, it's a reunion that not even money can buy. The unbelievable offer Led Zeppelin frontman Robert Plant ripped up even after the rest of the band signed on.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

The politics lead now. It may have been less than one week ago, but those 2014 midterm elections seem like ancient history, frankly. Buzz already in the air surrounding the potential 2016 presidential candidates. Will Mitt Romney run? Could there be a dynasty face-off with another Clinton v. Bush fight for the White House?

This weekend, former President George W. Bush weighed in on the possibility of his little brother, Jeb, throwing his hat into the ring.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT: I think it's 50/50. He and I are very close. On the other hand, he's not here knocking on my door agonizing about the decision. He knows exactly -- the ramifications on family, for example. He's seen his dad and his brother go through the presidency. I would give it a toss-up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Can the Republican Party keep the momentum going heading into 2016?

Joining me now, the man who clinched the Senate majority for Republicans last week, winning the most expensive Senate race in world history, North Carolina Senator-elect Thom Tillis.

Senator, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate it and congratulations.

SENATOR-ELECT THOM TILLIS (R), NORTH CAROLINA: Thanks for having me.

TAPPER: So, Senator-elect, Jeb Bush endorsed you in your Senate campaign. Care to return the favor if he decides to run?

TILLIS: You know, there's a lot of good candidates or a lot of potential candidates that are thinking about it. Governor Bush is a very impressive leader. He had a great reputation down in Florida. A number of other people being talked about have to make those decisions. And then, we'll figure out where to go from there.

TAPPER: As soon as you're sworn in, maybe even before, one of the first issues you have to deal with is immigration. A year ago at the Bush library, Jeb Bush said many who come to America illegally do so as an act of love for their children and should be treated differently, he suggested, than those who overstay their visas.

Do you agree with that?

TILLIS: Well, I think that what we need to do is stay focused on exactly what we talked about during the campaign. First and foremost, seal the border, then talk about what you do once you've stabilized the growth of the population. And I think -- I'll take Governor Bush's comments at face value. I think it makes sense. I think Republicans need to have a tone that we set that will convince everybody that immigration reform is necessary. But it starts with sealing the border.

TAPPER: Speaking of tones, there's a lot of debate here in Washington, D.C. about what exactly last Tuesday's election meant.

Do you think that you were elected to stop President Obama and his agenda or do you think you were elected to reach across the aisle and find common ground?

TILLIS: I think I was elected to produce results. I believe that the American people are tired of Congress not functioning. I think that still top of mine more than any issue is jobs and the economy, getting regulatory changes in place to take burdens off of businesses, getting tax policies that make sense, make it more likely that business will invest and grow jobs.

That's what American people want to see. They're just tired of seeing bills come from the House and die in the Senate. They want to see results. We owe it to the American bill not to go up there and be a different brand of inaction. We need to produce results and we need to do it quickly.

It's the smartest thing we can do to lay the groundwork for 2016.

TAPPER: Speaking of regulations and taxes, let's talk about Obamacare, which you talked about a lot on the campaign trail. You've said one of the Senate goals moving forward should be to repeal it. A video recently surfaced of Jonathan Gruber from MIT, who's one of the architects of Obamacare, I want you to listen to what he said about how the bill was passed and get your reaction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN GRUBER, MASSACHUSETTS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY: If you had a law which said healthy people are going to pay in -- if you made it explicit that healthy people pay in and sick people get money, it would not have passed, OK? Just like how people -- transparent -- lack of transparency is a huge advantage. And basically, you know, call it the stupidity of the American voter or whatever. But basically that was really, really critical to getting the thing to pass.

And, you know, it's the second best argument. Look, I wish Mark was right, we could make it all transparent. But I'd rather have this law than not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Senator-elect, your response?

TILLIS: Well, that sounds like the means justifies the ends -- or the ends justify the means, I'm sorry.

That is exactly what the American people are tired of. They want transparency. They want to be treated with respect. We did a lot of very difficult bills since I've been speaker of the house. Some of them were controversial on both sides of the ideological spectrum. But we took the time to explain it to people and not do this sort of bob and weave.

If the American people really knew the effects of Obamacare, the Affordable Care Act, I don't think it would have passed. What may have happened is a sustainable bill. What we have now is a bill that either must be repealed or substantially replaced.

TAPPER: You won the most expensive Senate race in history. Looking back, more than $100 million -- does that embarrass you? Are you proud of it? What's your feeling about it?

TILLIS: Well, we're not surprised by it. As late as July of last year, as early as July of last year, we estimated that it would be somewhere between $70 million and $90 million. Much of that was spent by my opponent and her supporters.

But it's just a testament to the fact that North Carolina is a swing state, voted for Obama in 2008, for Romney in 2012. It will continue to be a state that will be very expensive in part because of its importance in deciding elections, Senate and national elections. But it's also just a large state now. It's the ninth most populous. We have very expensive media markets. So, there are a variety of reasons why it was the most expensive state.

TAPPER: Senator-elect Thom Tillis, thank you and congratulations again.

TILLIS: Thank you, Jake.

TAPPER: In world news, he is a ruthless dictator who reportedly murdered members of his own family. But this weekend, Kim Jong-un got a personal letter from President Obama. Was it what the president said that convinced the North Korean leader to release two American prisoners? That's coming up.

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