Return to Transcripts main page

The Lead with Jake Tapper

WSJ: Govt Planes Spy on Cell Phone Calls; Ferguson Braces for Decision; Interview with State Department Spokeswoman Jen Psaki; Bin Laden Shooter; Putin's Ride

Aired November 14, 2014 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Kill shot. He says he fired the one that took out Osama bin Laden, and now he is here live to tell his story to you.

I'm Jake Tapper. This is THE LEAD.

The world lead, America's enemy number one snuffed out with a muzzle flash, his jihadist dreams painted over with a single red X. Now the former Navy SEAL who says he killed bin Laden talks about the operation, the aftermath, and more than three years later why he finally decided to reveal himself to the world.

And another diplomatic summit poised to become a cold war clash. Vladimir Putin heads ashore to tango with President Obama after parking a fleet of warships off Australia's coast.

Plus, the national lead Ferguson, Missouri, teetering on the edge, police bracing for riots, the community restless and worried as a grand jury inches closer to a decision. Will they indict the police officer who killed Michael Brown?

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

The former Navy SEAL who claims he shot and killed Osama bin Laden is here on THE LEAD and he will tell his story live.

But, first, some big developments on two major stories in our world lead, Vladimir Putin stepping off his plane and into the cool Australian air today, while just off the coast of Australia Russia has amassed a flotilla of destroyers, alarming the Australian government to the point that three Aussie ships are now monitoring the Russian ones. That's just the latest provocation by the Russian leader.

The government of Ukraine is now claiming five people, including a toddler, were killed by mortar fire from pro-Russian rebels as Russia continues to send troops and tanks into Eastern Ukraine. Meanwhile, the American military continues its campaign to kill terrorists inside Syria and Iraq.

The Pentagon today announcing that U.S.-led coalition forces unleashed a precision-guided arsenal on 20 separate targets inside Syria, including that al Qaeda offshoot that U.S. intelligence officials call the Khorasan group, the terrorists whom we're told are plotting the next attack on American or European airliners with highly concealable explosives.

CNN international correspondents Arwa Damon and Phil Black are both with us. Arwa's in Southern Turkey. Phil is in Ukraine.

Arwa, first to you. What's the latest in the coalition war against these groups?

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, despite those ongoing airstrikes and the fact that they are taking out ISIS targets, they're also having another effect, and that is to drive more fighters towards the terrorist organization, namely fighters from the al Qaeda-linked Nusra Front.

Now, ever since ISIS appeared in the Syrian battlefield, they have managed to either lure in fighters from al-Nusra, or quite simply recruit them, force them to join ISIS because they have taken over territory that they once formerly controlled.

This is, yes, an al Qaeda-linked entity, but it is one that used to fight against ISIS. And now we're seeing more of its fighters moving towards ISIS. We're also hearing various reports of in some areas at least something of an alliance being forged between the Nusra Front and ISIS to battle other Western-backed Syrian rebel groups.

That being said, this alliance does not necessarily extend to the top- tier leadership of Nusra Front or ISIS, but, at the end of the day, it is ISIS that is benefiting from all of this, because it is being able to, despite the fact that those coalition airstrikes are ongoing, recruit even more fighters, Jake.

TAPPER: Arwa Damon at the border between Turkey and Syria.

Phil Black is in Kharkiv, Ukraine.

Phil, what is the latest there?

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, the Ukrainian president, Petro Poroshenko, has told people not to panic about his government's belief that Russians, Russian soldiers are crossing the border in great numbers.

He says that's because the Ukrainian military has been preparing. He says it is ready to repel any new assault. It's pretty ambitious talk from the Ukrainian president, especially in the event of what they consider to be a likely scenario that is a new assault, an offensive by separatist forces involving significant assistance from Russian soldiers and their heavier, more sophisticated firepower.

They believe it is likely because they say that is what has happened through the year whenever the little green men have showed up here, that is, those unmarked Russian soldiers, heavily armed, looking very professional, changing the course of events in this battlefield, as they have done so, so many times.

Now, when it comes to that other perceived action of Russian assertiveness, some distance from where I'm standing, the Australian government says those warships that have been parked off its northeast coast, it doesn't think that they are something to worry about. It's trying to play down the concerns there because it notes that in the past it is not unusual for Russia to deploy warships to other big international supports attended by its leadership.

So, the Australian government is saying it doesn't think this is something to worry about, but it is keeping a very close eye on them, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Phil Black and Arwa Damon, thank you both so much. Stay safe to both of you.

For how the U.S. is responding to these dueling threats, I want to go to State Department spokeswoman Jennifer Psaki.

Jen, good to see you, as always.

JEN PSAKI, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESWOMAN: Hi, Jake. Good to see you.

TAPPER: Russia has been flying bombers very close to U.S. shores. You said yesterday that -- yesterday, you described these flights as unwarranted. I don't mean to be glib about it, but I honestly use stronger language when my kids misbehave. Is that really the level where U.S. concern is on this?

PSAKI: Well, Jake, I think what I was getting at yesterday is that we don't see there being exactly a threat in these areas where they have announced they're going to have these planes flying.

However, as long as they're abiding by international law, then, you know, this is something that they may do and that's OK. But, you know, what we're looking at here is aggressive actions across the board, but most focus -- our biggest focus is on Ukraine and what they're doing there.

TAPPER: Exactly. As you say and as you know, Russia's getting more aggressive, in the air, by sea, obviously on land. There's evidence that U.S. and Western sanctions are impacting the Russian economy, but, obviously, Putin is only getting more aggressive.

Yet, he's still at the G20, he's still at most international summits. Do you think maybe it's time to get tougher diplomatically and also perhaps to provide lethal aid to the Ukrainian soldiers?

PSAKI: Well, on the first front, I think the world is a complicated place. And with Russia, I will take the P5-plus-one negotiations on it with Iran.

We're working in lockstep with Russia on that, as we are with other countries, and they have been working closely on that with us for months now. It doesn't mean that not just the United States, but many in the international community don't have ongoing concerns about what they're doing in Ukraine, including recent actions over the past couple of weeks, but we have put the financial sanctions in place because we feel that if we can squeeze them economically, they're going to have to make a choice about whether they care more about their people and the economy that's impacting their people or they care about their own aspirations for expansion.

TAPPER: What about lethal aid to the Ukrainian soldiers? Obviously, Russia has been sending in tanks and troops into Eastern Ukraine.

PSAKI: That's right.

And the Ukrainians have been -- have made a range of requests. We have had a range of discussions about them -- with them about these requests. We continue to consider them. I don't have anything new to update you on, unfortunately, at this point in time, though.

TAPPER: Let's turn to Syria. Does the Obama administration believe that ISIS and al-Nusra are going to work together to fight the U.S. and the coalition?

PSAKI: Well, Jake, you're referencing I think reports from the last 24 hours about a meeting that they have purportedly had just a couple of days ago. We don't have confirmation of that, but I think it's important to remind people that they have had meetings or tried to work together at lower levels in the past.

Some have fallen apart. Some have stayed together. At this point in time, we haven't seen kind of an overarching coordination between the organizations.

TAPPER: General Martin Dempsey, as I'm sure you know, he testified that he still might recommend ground troops, U.S. ground troops in Mosul, Iraq. Does Secretary Kerry think that might be a good idea?

PSAKI: Well, Chairman Dempsey also said in his testimony, Jake, that he had not made that recommendation, that he did not think it was going to come to a point to have a large military U.S. presence.

So, we will see what happens. Obviously, he had an ongoing, a dialogue with Congress, and that's often what happens when people high up testify. The secretary believes, like the president does, that we certainly are not going to, we don't need to have U.S. ground troops there. We're not going to return to what we experienced several years ago, but we do need to continue to do more and more to boost up the Iraqi security forces.

TAPPER: Let's turn to Iran and the negotiations there to try to get them to stop what the U.S. believes is a nuclear weapons program. Secretary Kerry, your boss, has been working to get that nuclear deal done almost since he began.

Do you think there will be an accord with Iran before the November 24 deadline?

PSAKI: Well, that's the deadline. That's what we're working on. It's the final stages of this. That's often when the tough discussions, the tough decisions are made, and we're certainly hopeful that will be the case, but we're working toward that.

Our political directors will be headed back there next week. The secretary will be headed back there at some point next week, and we're going to be pressing to the finish line here, Jake.

TAPPER: You know there's a move in Congress to block it. Republican Senator Mark Kirk warns that Iran will use a weak deal as cover to get nuclear weapons.

PSAKI: Well, we certainly disagree with that.

Obviously, members of Congress can propose and can state what they like publicly, but we believe this is the best chance we have to prevent Iran from acquiring a nuclear weapon, and we would encourage any member to wait for the final details. Don't give a grade to the thesis paper based solely on the headline. Look at the content and see what you think at that point.

TAPPER: All right, Jen Psaki, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

PSAKI: Thank you, Jake.

TAPPER: Moving now to our national lead, the next time you look up and see a small plane flying above, you might want to hang up your phone, because federal law enforcement is now using planes in sting operations to catch criminals, and innocent bystanders could be spied on, too. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

You ever have a strong cell phone signal, but you still can't seem to make the call? Our national lead may just explain why.

A new report from "The Wall Street Journal" claims the government uses small planes to spy on cell phone calls in this country. How, exactly? Well, Cessna planes flying over neighborhoods nationwide are apparently loaded with devices called dirtboxes. They serve as fake cell phone towers to pick up your signal, and according to the "Journal" report, the planes are looking for criminals.

But are law-abiding cell-phone-using Americans getting spied on as well?

CNN justice correspondent Pamela Brown has been working the phones on the story all day.

Pamela, the government is not denying this report, right?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: No, they're not denying or confirming it. They're basically just saying that everything they do having to -- dealing with investigative methods is lawful.

So, they're emphasizing that, and we've known, Jake, for a long time, law enforcement has used controversial equipment for years that simulates cell towers in order to locate a criminal, but now we are learning that the U.S. marshal's service uses equipment that has a capability to pull cell phone data from an entire city, according to the "The Wall Street Journal." (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): They're considered cell phone towers in the sky, hidden inside small Cessna planes operated by the U.S. Marshal's Service. "The Wall Street Journal" says the devices known as "dirt boxes" are supposed to pinpoint the location of criminals, but there's a catch.

DEVLIN BARRETT, WALL STREET JOURNAL: The system is designed to pick up a ton of data, because it's looking for a needle in a haystack. But to find that needle, it has to actually, for a brief period of time, look at every other piece of hay in that stack.

BROWN: The planes fly with special equipment that mimic cell towers and scans thousands of phones. When it finds a target's phone, the equipment locks on and uses the information to find a suspect's location.

CHRIS SOGHOIAN, ACLU: The advantage of the drone, airplane or helicopter is that they can just search a much larger area much faster, and thus, necessarily get information about a huge number of innocent people.

BROWN: The device is similar to this commonly used cell site simulator known as the "Stingray". Government officials say it's intended to be used with a defined, legally authorized purpose in serious violent crimes. CNN has learned that the technology was used in the capture of El Chapo Guzman, the former head a notorious Sinaloa cartel and one of the most wanted men in the world.

SOGHOIAN: This is a military technology originally designed for the intelligence community and Special Forces that has trickled down bit by bit to law enforcement, and eventually, the state and local law enforcement agencies, too.

BROWN: In a statement, the Department of Justice would not confirm the existence of the technology but says any investigative techniques which the marshal's service uses are for the apprehension of wanted individuals and not to conduct domestic surveillance or intelligence- gathering.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And the Department of Justice official also says the marshal's service does not maintain any databases for the purposes of retaining cell phone information of the general public. It's unclear, though, how quickly their data is deleted.

TAPPER: Yes, and, of course, the government would never misuse data. But, Pamela, I do have a question. When it comes to these planes taking off and targeting, do they do it on their own? Does a judge have to sign off? Is there a warrant? What's involved?

BROWN: Well, there's supposed to be a court order or a warrant. I've been speaking to law enforcement officials and they're talking about this other equipment, the Stingray we mentioned in the piece. And that before using that, you're supposed to have a court order. A judge is supposed to sign off on saying, yes, you can do this, you can collect the data.

But the big question is and something we don't know the answer to, is how transparent law enforcement is with the judge about this equipment. In other words, how much data it's collecting, when the data is deleted, all of that.

So, how informed is the judge when signing off on something like this? That's the big question.

TAPPER: Lots of potential problems. Pamela Brown, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Coming up, a city on edge and bracing for the worse. Now, police in Ferguson, Missouri, are saying that some local residents are inciting violence with their cell phones. Huh? That's next.

Plus, he says he was the Navy SEAL who took out bin Laden and now he's here to share every part of that mission, including the look on bin Laden's face when he knew his time was up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

More national news today: the entire country is watching and waiting to see what will happen in Ferguson, Missouri. The St. Louis suburb and surrounding areas are planning for the worst, possible all-out riots in response to the grand jury's decision to indict or not to indict Officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of Michael Brown. A panel will decide as early as next week.

The killing of the unarmed black teen by the white police officer has sparked protests since the innocent happened back in august. Police are encouraging people to stock up on food and supplies in case demonstrations turn violent and they cannot leave their homes. Even schools are making plans. Leaders are asking the grand jury to announce its decision when classes are not in session.

Whatever happens, technology will help people around the world see it unfold.

CNN correspondent Sara Sidner has spent the last two months in Ferguson. She joins us live.

Sara, tell us how technology's playing into all this.

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, it's really interesting to see what's happening here. There are now at least seven people that are using the technology called live stream or live streaming. You just download it on to your phone.

And they're at every single protest. And sometimes, they're at some of the other events that are going on that have to do with the situation here in Ferguson. And there are thousands of people who are watching them on a daily basis.

So, while the people here, the residents, the police, the pastors, everyone is preparing, so are the live streamers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER (voice-over): Another night of protests where tensions rise. But in Ferguson, Missouri, it's all being sent out to the world via new media.

See all those lights? Those are live streamers. They use cell phones and Internet hotspot and streaming software to show live pictures to online viewers around the world.

CHRISTOPHER GAGNE, ARGUS STREAMING NEWS: You know, before this started, I didn't even know about it.

SIDNER: Christopher Gagne has made a business out of it. He was one of the first to do it here.

GAGNE: Several of those nights, our feeds would have up to 60,000, 80,000 people watching.

SIDNER: He and his partner's live stream got the world's attention with these images.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police department to turn off all the cameras.

SIDNER: They didn't and were live when --

(SHOTS)

SIDNER: -- police used tear gas and rubber bullets.

GAGNE: I got hit with a rubber bullet in the back and then a canister in the head of tear gas. And I was able to film the entire thing. I didn't stop.

SIDNER: They were also there when some of the protesters turned violent. The number of live streamers is increasing. For some, the goal is to give people an uncut, real time look at the action for hours without much narration. Others share their opinions constantly. And a couple use inflammatory language.

BASSEM MASRI, LIVE STREAMING: Please, get the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) out of our neighborhood!

SIDNER: That's the voice of Bassem Masri. He's become popular because of the way he and a few others speak to police and traditional media. Some protesters and police even call him dangerous.

(on camera): Some of the language you use, you know, get the "F" out of here. Do you understand the reaction, like the human reaction?

MASRI: Of course. But at the same time, you're dealing with people that have been oppressed in their lifetimes for years, and they have never had a chance to vent their anger. This is the way we speak in the streets. So, it's kind of hard for us to filter ourselves when our emotions are running sky high.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER: And just to give you some idea of what the frustration is on the part of the live streamers and some of the protesters. Some of them are saying, look, we've been protesting for more than 90 days now, and for the most part, they have been peaceful protests.

Yes, they're loud. Yes, sometimes coarse words are used. Yes, sometimes they're in the face of both the police, and we certainly were faced with them at one point. But they say, look, most of the time, we are doing peaceful protesting, and they do not like it when they say many people just focus in on those few days where there was looting and there was rioting -- Jake.

TAPPER: The revolution will be live-streamed, as it were. Sara Sidner live for us in Ferguson, Missouri -- Sara, thank you.

Now back to our world lead and the former Navy SEAL who says he is the one who took out Osama bin Laden. It's the story many have waited three years to hear, about the moment America's enemy number one took his last breath and why taking him alive was not an option. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)