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The Lead with Jake Tapper

French Manhunt Continues; Intelligence Agencies Reevaluating Targets with Suspected Terror Links; Tracking Potential Terrorists; Interview with U.S. Congressman Peter King of New York

Aired January 08, 2015 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Manhunt. The Paris terrorists still on the loose, are police closing in on them?

I'm Jake Tapper. This is THE LEAD.

The world lead. Several people detained, but more than 24 hours after the terrorist rampage in Paris, the shooters are still on the loose. Now police say the shooters were spotted where they ditched their getaway car.

The killers now identified. One of them already did time for ties to terrorism, so how did French authorities lose track of him? And did the shooters learn to shoot so effectively in Syria or Iraq or Yemen?

And what about the 100 Americans who have gone to the battlefields overseas who may have the same training and twisted views and ability to pull off an attack like this here in the U.S.? Are we, is our government doing a better job keeping track of them?

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the lead. I'm Jake Tapper.

We are going to begin today with breaking news in our world lead and the still ongoing, still frenzied search for these two terrorists. Nearly 90,000 police officers have been deployed across France, many of them rummaging through rural villages north of Paris trying to apprehend the two, Cherif Kouachi and Said Kouachi, the men French authorities have identified as the terrorists who slaughtered 12 people in cold blood yesterday.

A gas station attendant in Villers-Cotterets, 55 miles north of Paris, says that he thinks the brothers held him up at gunpoint, stealing gas and food, before speeding away. Now police have set up a perimeter, a circle of checkpoints as they rush to box in these two fanatics before they can escape the country or add to their grisly body count.

These alleged murderers brandishing submachine guns stormed the offices of the satirical magazine "Charlie Hebdo" yesterday, shooting their way into an editorial meeting, summarily assassinating journalists, cartoonists, policemen, and others.

The attack has put all of France on guard. The country's terror level has been elevated, security teams standing watch at many possible other targets, newspapers or TV stations, malls, churches, mosques, transit centers. Today, France's interior minister said nine people linked to the

"Charlie Hebdo" shooting are in custody, but still not one international terrorist group has stepped forward to claim responsibility for the massacre. In the sprint to leave the scene, the killers were forced to abandon their getaway car, a Citroen C3. We learned today what they left behind helped French police figure out their identities.

CNN's Anderson Cooper is in the 11th District in Paris right by the "Charlie Hebdo" offices and the scene of yesterday's carnage.

Anderson, so this car the terrorists ditched while trying to escape, it's given police information to work off of?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: It has.

It's turned out to be crucial for law enforcement. What we know, according to government officials here, is that they found an identity card of Said Kouachi, the elder of the two brothers, 34-year-old Said Kouachi. Not much is actually -- there's really not much known about him publicly. A lot more is known about his younger brother, Cherif Kouachi, who's had conflicts with law enforcement, actually served time in jail while awaiting trial on charges of attempting to go to fight in Iraq back in 2005.

He was put on trial in 2008, given a three-year sentence, but because of the time he had already served, he was immediately released. Not a lot is known about either brother and their whereabouts over the last year or two, although at least one of them was said to be on the radar of French law enforcement. It's not clear at what tier level they were at.

Clearly, they don't seem to have been tier one suspects that would have granted them round-the-surveillance, but this identity card that reportedly has been found, that is what has led police to this manhunt, as you said, unprecedented level of a manhunt, some 88,000 troops, military forces, as well as police forces combing various towns in the north of France and elsewhere.

TAPPER: Anderson, you spoke with someone from the magazine, "Charlie Hebdo," who was at the scene about five minutes after the massacre happened. What did he have to tell you?

COOPER: Yes, Patrick Pelloux, he's now the spokesman for "Charlie Hebdo."

I went to the hospital where a number of the journalists who work for the magazine are now being treated. As you know, there were as many as 10, 10 to 11 people who were wounded in the attack, in addition to the 12 who were killed.

He is obviously distraught. He is obviously incredibly worried about his friends. He is determined not to be silenced, determined that the magazine will not be silenced. He's also a medical doctor. He said he worked as a paramedic for 25 years. He arrived on the scene at magazine headquarters about five minutes

after the attack, he said. He said it was a scene of war unlike anything he has ever seen in his entire career as a doctor and even as a paramedic.

I asked him if he is fearful right now, and with tears in his eyes, he spoke not about himself, but about his determination to continue to work, to continue to put out this magazine. As you know, they're going to be putting out an edition of the magazine next Wednesday. They're going to print a million copies of it. A number of other publications in Paris have already reached out to help this magazine get up and running in the face of the attempt to silence it.

One of the things he said that really sort of stuck with me about the reason they want to continue is he said, "If we are silent, it would be like my friends had been murdered twice."

So, they are determined to get this magazine up and running again, and it seems like they're going to do it.

TAPPER: Anderson, obviously these two terrorists don't represent the five million to six million Muslims in France, but, in fact, one of the victims obviously from yesterday was a police officer who was Muslim. But there have been reprisals against mosques and other Muslim targets. What can you tell us about that?

COOPER: Yes.

According to local media reports, there have been two small explosions outside of Paris in different towns near mosques. Unclear at this point how they may be or may not be connected to the attack here at the "Charlie Hebdo" headquarters. Police are obviously investigating those, though frankly so much manpower right now is being put on this manhunt.

This is -- that is the number-one priority for law enforcement here right now, trying to find these two alleged terrorists who they are casting an incredibly wide net for, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Anderson Cooper in Paris, he will be back on the air on CNN later tonight for "A.C. 360." That's 8:00 p.m. Eastern. We will see you then. Thanks so much for the great reporting.

CNN's Atika Shubert is near the French village of Longpont, where police activity has been picking up all day.

Atika, there have been blockades, helicopters flying overhead, heavily armed teams making their way into that area. Are police certain that they're zeroing in on these two terror suspects right now?

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Police have made no comment on the operations inside, so they haven't confirmed that they are, in fact, zeroing in on those suspects.

All we know is that police presence has been building all day. You mentioned those helicopters. We saw them circling overhead. We also know that SWAT teams, heavily armed police, went down that road to Longpont, which is about four kilometers from here, and did house-to- house searches.

Having said that, just in the last few minutes, we saw a very large convoy actually leaving the area, up to 20 vehicles, including a rapid-response team and a vehicle for the SWAT team as well. So we don't know why they were leaving, whether that means the search there has ended or not, or whether that search has widened into the surrounding forest in this area.

Just to give you an idea, a very rural area here, lots of open field and farmhouses, but also a very large forest that's thousands of acres wide. That's going to take police a very long time to comb through, so it's quite possible that they are now widening the search to cover that very heavily wooded area, Jake.

TAPPER: That sounds challenging. Atika, Hamyd Mourad is the 18-year- old who French police initially identified as a possible suspect. He surrendered to police last night. Is it clear if he is still talking to authorities? Has he been arrested? Has he been released?

SHUBERT: Yes, there's a big question mark hanging over this particular suspect, Hamyd Mourad, 18 years old.

And the police now saying that he turned himself in once he saw his name on social media. And we actually contacted one of his classmates, someone who said he was his classmate in high school, said he was in school at the time of the attack. So it's not clear exactly what his connection is to the other two suspects or if he's still giving any further information to police.

But we do know that police have said he has turned himself in and was, so far as we know, answering their questions.

TAPPER: Atika Shubert in Longpont, France, thank you so much.

As police continue to hunt for the two terror suspects who remain at large, presumed armed and dangerous, investigators and intelligence officials are also trying to piece together more information about just who these men are.

CNN chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto is also in Paris.

Jim, what are your sources telling you about how these French citizens, these brothers became radicalized?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, the answer to that question, particularly for the younger brother, Cherif Kouachi, was that he was radicalized by the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003, and in particular, he told authorities, by the abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib a short time after the U.S. invasion.

But we're learning much more about what the French authorities knew before this attack. The sad fact is they knew about both of these brothers. They had had them under surveillance for some time before this attack. And one of them had served time in prison and been arrested more than once.

We also are now told the French justice minister telling Christiane Amanpour that one of them traveled to Yemen a number of years ago before this attack, all this happening before the deadly shooting in Paris just down the street behind me two days ago.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO (voice-over): As the manhunt continues for the attackers in the countryside outside of Paris, a clearer picture is emerging of the gunmen behind the masks.

Authorities have identified brothers Cherif Kouachi, 32 years old, and Said Kouachi as the chief suspects. The two left behind a getaway car, and inside a key clue, Said's I.D. card, the gunmen's first mistake.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): It was mistake, a single mistake.

SCIUTTO: Both brothers were known to French authorities and had been under police monitoring.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): As soon as the identity of suspect was known, where they might flee to, they were placed under surveillance.

SCIUTTO: Cherif, the younger of two brothers and a fan of rap music, was sentenced to three years in prison in 2008 for recruiting jihadis to fight in Iraq. And in 2005, he was arrested before traveling to Syria, from where he intended to travel to Iraq to fight against U.S. and coalition forces there.

Cherif's former lawyer claimed he was not an extremist.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): He was like a lot of young people. He just had a job that provided him money for an uninteresting lifestyle. When he got out of custody, he found a job, he got married, and when he arrived in court in 2008, he seemed to be getting back on the right path.

SCIUTTO: Much less is known about the elder Kouachi brother, Said, who had a lower profile.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Said Kouachi lived in Reims, was unemployed, and was never condemned or accused, but he appeared in the periphery of some of these investigations in which his brother Said was involved.

SCIUTTO: Today, we found the mosque where the two were radicalized torn down. A neighbor who lived in the same building described Said.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): He lived here for a year-and- a-half. He used to leave in the morning and we never saw him. But if he really did that, it's disgusting, because what we saw last night, truly, we cried. (END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: So why were these brothers taken off surveillance?

I spoke today with a former chief of France's counterterror service, and he said, in the simplest terms, and I'm quoting here, "There are too many of them, too few of us," too many suspected jihadis, too few in the police and the intelligence services to track them.

And he gave me a sense, Jake, of the numbers here. He says, for any one suspect, It takes three to as many as 20 agents to track them. You're talking 24/7, and in France alone, there are some 5,000 names on the list of suspected jihadis. You do the math there, you're talking about tens of thousands of security personnel necessary to track those people and that's just an impossible mathematics to make practical here.

He also told me that a particular problem is when these suspects go silent, when they're off the grid for a couple years. You can't keep up that surveillance and he says that's what happened with Cherif Kouachi and, of course, that allowed perhaps an opportunity for him to carry out the carnage they carried out yesterday just down the street from me here.

TAPPER: All right, Jim Sciutto, thank you so much.

CNN justice correspondent Pamela Brown's here with some breaking news.

Pam, intelligence agencies are working right now to see what they knew about these two individuals. What are they learning?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're actually learning that these two individuals had been on U.S. radar for years, Jake. In fact, they were in the database TIDE database, which is a database of suspected and known international terrorists. And they were on the U.S. no-fly list for a year.

So, right now, there is an evaluation process taking place. And sources say, so far, there haven't been any connections found between the Paris suspects and high-level targets living in the U.S.

And, of course, the big concern that is top of mind among law enforcement officials here at home is that what happened in Paris could happen here.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): Following back-to-back attacks in Paris, the FBI, DHS, and intelligence agencies in the U.S. are scrubbing their databases and evaluating high-priority targets living in the country.

DAVEED GARTENSTEIN-ROSS, TERRORISM EXPERT: The U.S. officials are going to be searching for any connection between these "Charlie Hebdo" attackers and Americans, any sort of secondary or tertiary connections between them. BROWN: The high-priority targets include Americans who are believed

to have returned to the U.S. after fighting in Syria. Sources tell CNN, out of the dozens of Americans who have returned from Syria, a percentage of those are believed to have fought with terrorists.

U.S. law enforcement and intelligence officials are evaluating what kind of impact the Paris attack may have on those individuals in the U.S. and whether they should take any action against these targets by contacting them directly, a move that would disrupt intelligence gathering but potentially stop an attack on U.S. soil.

GARTENSTEIN-ROSS: Since 9/11, there's been a shift in the U.S. paradigm to much more of a preemptive paradigm. They're not just trying to arrest people after crimes have been committed but they're looking to prevent attacks. And part of that is looking at possible connections and possible dangers when something like this occurs.

BROWN: U.S. officials tell CNN the Paris attacks highlight the multifaceted terrorism threat facing the U.S. from highly coordinated attacks to lone wolf attacks, driven in some measure by terrorist groups.

GARTENSTEIN-ROSS: Al Qaeda and the Islamic state have both been trying for some time to encourage them to strike while at the same time aiming for larger-scale attacks because lone wolves keep law enforcement on their feet, they waste resources of the enemy, they keep the enemy scared, they keep you in the headlines, while at the same time you can prepare to do something larger.

BROWN: Tonight, cities like New York City are stepping up security out of concern for copycat attacks.

SEN. SUSAN COLINS (R), MAINE: It reminds us that the terrorist threat is still very real for this country as well as for other Western nations.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And U.S. law enforcement officials say, so far, there's no new intelligence indicating active plotting in the U.S., but authorities are still waiting for more information on the subjects in Paris before really knowing anything definitive. Jake, that probably won't happen until they're in custody -- still very fluid and dynamic situation there.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Hopefully, they'll in custody.

BROWN: Yes.

TAPPER: Pamela Brown, thank you so much.

The younger brother spent time in jail for attempting to recruit jihadists. The older brother had been investigated for his connection to a prison break plot. So, if police in France knew about both of them and their possible connections to terrorism, why were they not being monitored more closely? That's next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We're going to continue with our world lead -- this manhunt for the terrorists allegedly responsible for the attack in Paris. Law enforcement is looking for two brothers who were on their radar well before the deadly rampage at the satirical magazine "Charlie Hebdo." In fact, one of these two men had spent jail in time for his ties to terrorism.

CNN's Tom Foreman joins me now.

Tom, obviously, hindsight is 20/20, but if these brother were such a concern, why were they not being more closely monitored?

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Jim Sciutto hinted at it a moment ago. In a sentence, there are a lot of potential terrorists in the world and only so many police.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(GUNFIRE)

FOREMAN (voice-over): Against the backdrop of those stunningly violent videos, here is French TV in a very different time.

That's Cherif Kouachi in a report about a youth group, long before 2008 when he was convicted of recruiting Muslims in Paris to go fight in Iraq, long before he trained with weapons in hopes of going to combat himself.

His older brother, Said, was also on police radar for potential ties to radical Islamic and possible terrorist activity. So, if those brothers are responsible for these attacks, why did authorities not see them coming?

RON HOSKO, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: Stopping a crime in advance can be extremely difficult.

FOREMAN: Ron Hosko is a former top official with the FBI. He says part of the problem is sheer volume. About 6 million Muslims live in France, more than in any other country in Western Europe. The vast number are law abiding.

But the community also contains pockets of economic and political unrest and criminal activity. Ands keeping an eye on one person amid all that is difficult.

HOSKO: You cannot surveil everybody. You cannot watch everybody's Facebook. You cannot watch everybody's Instagram, and from that divine who really is a bad actor and who is just venting.

FOREMAN: Physically following a suspect requiring vast resources, officers rotating around the clock. Video -- that's more useful for investigating the crime afterward than stopping it ahead of time. And then there is this -- even someone who might be inclined toward extremism does not always advertise it.

Cherif Kouachi's attorney: "I saw him change when he was in custody," he says, "but I didn't see an ounce of religious extremism. I just noticed that he was becoming more mature but less open minded."

And, of course, when people are plotting --

HOSKO: They're engaged in tactics to defeat surveillance, physical and technical. It makes it much more difficult for law enforcement to do its job.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOREMAN: All of that is why preventing an attack like this one is easier this theory than practice. Yes, maybe police will find an illegal gun dealer who could have tipped off authorities or maybe they'll find family or friends who knew something was coming or maybe they will find two men collectively acting like a lone wolf attacker. And we already know those people are very, very hard to catch.

TAPPER: All right, Tom Foreman, thanks so much.

Let's bring in Republican congressman from New York, Peter King. He's the former chairman and current member of the House Homeland Security Committee.

Congressman, thanks so much for joining us.

REP. PETER KING (R-NY), HOMELAND SECURITY CMTE.: You're welcome, Jake.

TAPPER: We now know these brothers were on the no fly list in the United States. What more the can you tell us what about the U.S. knew about them? Was there ever an international effort to track these guys?

KING: Jake, I'm not away if there was one. I've had several briefings and they're still trying to find out exactly what we knew and when we knew it, how much we exchanged information with the French, how much they exchanged with us, and how much of a profile these two brothers had.

TAPPER: No group has claimed responsibility publicly for the attack. Do you think that suggests the gunmen may have acted alone or what are you hearing from briefings about possible involvement of AQAP, that's al Qaeda in Yemen, or ISIS?

KING: Yes. It's too early to say whether or not they acted entirely on their own or they had directions from outside France. But I think -- again, my feeling right now is they were either affiliated with AQAP, or they were inspired by them, or had past connections with them.

TAPPER: At one point, these brothers were under surveillance. France has some 5,000 suspected jihadists on terror watch list. They admit, as you heard from our reports earlier, they don't have the manpower to track everyone all the time. I assume we face a similar situation here in the U.S.

KING: We do, but we do take it very seriously. We have the NSA, CIA, FBI, Joint Terrorism Task Force, and in New York, for instance, we have a thousand police doing nothing but working on counterterrorism. That's their entire job.

TAPPER: Let me ask you about that because you're quoted today telling Newsmax that the attack proves that the NYPD program, the surveillance of mosques that took place, was appropriate and justified.

But, Congressman, that surveillance program as I understand it as was reported by the "Associated Press", didn't produce a single lead. And beyond that to some of your critics, it might sound as though you're suggesting the correct response to this attack on freedom, the terrorist attack, is to attack a different freedom, religious freedom. How do you respond?

KING: Well, first of all, the "Associated Press" and "The New York Times" were totally disgrace in the way they attacked the NYPD. What you're talking about is the demographic unit, which was never intended to capture terrorists. What it was intended to do was scope out communities so that if something did occur, you would know where the trouble might be coming from. It was not to stop a plot but to know when there was rumors of one, talk of one, where you would know where to go and where not to go. The fact is, we've had a number of terror threats against New York or stopped because of the work of the NYPD as a whole collaborative effort within different units of the NYPD.

TAPPER: The deputy mayor of Paris said today, quote, "We may be facing a new wave of terrorism." He said it's probably not the end. But France is ready to face it and fight it.

Do you agree? Is France ready?

KING: I would hope they are. And they have a particular problem because of their colonial history in North Africa, because of the fact of being so close to Muslim countries, and the fact that so many of their citizens have left to go to fight in Syria and how they can make their way back up across the border right up into France.

And they have -- also unlike the United States, they have a very angry Muslim population. In our country, we don't have that. But you do have elements in France where the Muslims really feel cut off from general society. So, they have an additional problem than we would have.

TAPPER: Explain what you mean that the Muslims in Europe or in France are angrier than Muslims in the United States.

KING: Yes. I was talking about in France where they have not really been assimilated into society. You have areas like Marseilles and other areas of France which are almost referred to as no-go areas. We have nothing like that in the United States. Our Muslim community, except for a very small, small percentage, are very patriotic Americans, part of the American mainstream.

TAPPER: Congressman Peter King, thank you so much. Appreciate your coming on.

KING: Thank you, Jake.

TAPPER: Coming up next, we'll go back live to Paris for the latest on the manhunt for these two alleged terrorist who carried out that brutal attack in Paris. Are police closing in on them?

Plus, a former FBI counterterrorism agent will join me to explain the tactical moves being made right now in the dead of night in this forested area to find these two alleged terrorists.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)