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The Lead with Jake Tapper

Man Accused Of Killing Three Muslim Students; Stewart To Leave "Daily Show" Later This Year; Williams Suspended From NBC For Six Months

Aired February 11, 2015 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

In world news, the stakes are high, perhaps much higher than that of the fate of just one nation. Talks are beginning to try and end Russia's bloody incursion into neighboring Ukraine. The leaders of France, Germany, Ukraine and Russia are all there. Talks are ongoing at this hour.

The eastern part of Ukraine has been at war now for close to a year as, quote/unquote, "rebels" who of course are in no way backed by Russian President Vladimir Putin according to Russian president Vladimir Putin, have laid waste to much of the eastern part of the country, in addition, of course, to having already snatched Crimea. Despite an attempt at peace talks, both sides in the bloody war in eastern Ukraine seem to be stepping up the fight. We have seen some of the biggest blasts of the war in this week leading up to what is being called the Minsk summit.

Today, four people were killed, nine injured after two buses were hit by shelling and exploded.

Our Nick Paton Walsh is live for us in Donetsk.

Nick, civilians there are leaving in fear of attacks like this every day. What's it like on the ground right now?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, actually, there's a strange quiet in the center of Donetsk here. It was very different hours ago. We heard a lot of outgoing and incoming shelling. But as you mentioned, the day started extraordinarily badly. Rush hour here, in the very city center of Donetsk where that shell struck, two buses, the driver in fact killed in his own seat, still there.

We went towards the north, in that encircled city, Debaltseve, saw separatist artillery in action firing towards, actually extra strange piece of hardware too there, advanced, their defense system known the SA-15 Gopher, also with the separatist rebels. They do have remarkably good equipment for what many are saying in Russia is an indigenous force of Ukrainian militiamen here.

But all eyes on Minsk, whether or not those talks with slow down the violence here at all. Sergey Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, just quoted by RIA Novosti, Russian state media, suggesting that any signing of a document won't be today, will be tomorrow.

Well, that is already tomorrow now in Belarus, so it could be imminent. Nobody really knows. They are trying to read the body language of the world leaders, who is walking with who, who is standing next to who, but, really, as you say, so much riding on this, not just the fate of a small part of Eastern Ukraine, but, really, whether Europe and the West can curtail Vladimir Putin's ambitions and whether or not what we refer to as the previous European world order, European order, will be smashed by what's been happening here in Eastern Ukraine, Jake.

TAPPER: Nick Paton Walsh live in Ukraine, thank you, sir.

The politics lead. The campaign slogan, "Yes, we can," it was kind of his "Stairway to Heaven." And now President Obama's former message guru is out with a new book that claims candidate Obama may have been hiding something on his march to the White House. We will talk to David Axelrod about his biggest bombshell next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

Our politics lead today, President Obama finding himself facing questions that, for years, he hid from voters his personal support for same-sex marriage, while publicly claiming he opposed it. Of course, this is before his about-face when he said that he supported it.

What's surprising is the source of this charge. It's one of his closest advisers, David Axelrod, who has been one of the president's closest friends and advisers for years, helping to lead his groundbreaking campaign and serve as a senior adviser in the White House. Axelrod is out with a brand-new book titled "Believer: My Forty Years in Politics."

David, thanks so much for being here.

The book is a great read.

DAVID AXELROD, FORMER SENIOR WHITE HOUSE ADVISER: Thank you.

TAPPER: And I have to say the stuff -- the early politics stuff and the stuff about your days as a newspaperman and going through politics is fascinating. I'm going to stick to more current politics.

AXELROD: I'm not surprised by that.

(LAUGHTER)

TAPPER: But all that was really very, very riveting.

AXELROD: Thank you. Thank you, because I tried to write a book about my life and not just about contemporary politics.

TAPPER: Yes. I hope -- like you still have a few more years in you, I'm hoping. AXELROD: Well, we will see how this book does.

But, you know, the subhead on the book was supposed to be "How My Idealism Survived 40 Years in Politics."

And that's really what the story is about.

TAPPER: No, and it's fascinating. Starts off with you sitting watching JFK on a mailbox.

AXELROD: Yes.

TAPPER: But let's start with the same-sex marriage kerfuffle.

AXELROD: Yes. Yes. Yes.

I wouldn't characterize it quite the way...

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: You wouldn't kerfuffle? Of course not.

AXELROD: I would not call it a charge. And I wasn't really being what -- what it was is what he described in his own interview with BuzzFeed yesterday.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Well, that's what I want to ask you about.

AXELROD: Yes, go ahead.

TAPPER: So you wrote that: I had no doubt that support for same-sex marriage was his heartfelt belief, but because of the politics, he opposed it, while being humane talking about civil unions and the rest.

The president telling BuzzFeed in a new interview -- quote -- "I think the notion that somehow I was always in favor of marriage, per se, for same-sex couples isn't quite accurate."

Did you get it wrong? Is he trying to fuzz it a little?

AXELROD: Well, if you go on in that interview, what he said was, I had my personal view and then I had my public position.

TAPPER: Which is exactly what you said.

AXELROD: Exactly.

TAPPER: He wasn't really disputing it.

AXELROD: No.

And he was frustrated, and he said he was frustrated, but he understood that the market -- what the market would bear. My point is this is not uncommon in history. Great leaders often work in that way. He had a goal and he worked his way to that goal. And most people I think in the gay and lesbian community would say there hasn't been a president who has been more accomplished in terms of breaking down these barriers. So I think he found his way there.

TAPPER: Yes. Sure.

Something else you wrote that I found was fascinating, because he does seem so cool and aloof and disdainful of Washington, disdainful of the media in a lot of respects. You write...

AXELROD: Except you, Jake.

(LAUGHTER)

TAPPER: I don't know about that.

So, you wrote -- you write -- it's about a 2006 memo that you sent to then Senator Obama in preparing for his presidential race. You were worried he couldn't take a punch. You said: "You care far too much what is written and said about you. You don't relish the combat when it becomes personal and nasty. When the largely irrelevant Alan Keyes" -- that was his opponent in the Senate race -- "attacked you, you flinched."

Do you think he still has that problem?

AXELROD: No. I think campaigns are proving grounds. He was involved in the longest and toughest nominating fight in history against a very formidable opponent. And I learned a lot about him. I think he learned a lot about himself, because he took a lot of punches and he kept on going.

And what I learned about him was that when those punches came and when we had downturns, he was as resilient as anybody.

TAPPER: He learned to blow it off?

(CROSSTALK)

AXELROD: He was calm and focused and pushing us forward when things went badly. And that was a great leadership quality that I didn't know until I saw him in action.

And that's the thing about presidential politics. You are tested along the way. And he passed the test.

TAPPER: The interesting thing about the same-sex marriage, revelation of his actual feelings, is that there's a scene that you write about, and it had been written about before, but not in this much detail, first-hand detail.

In 2012, he's sitting there with senior advisers talking about the things that he felt he had been insufficiently forthright, that's your language, about with voters, same-sex marriage, some other issues, immigration reform. AXELROD: Right.

TAPPER: One of them was President Obama said, again, this is your language, that he had been pulling his punches with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, for fear of antagonizing some elements of the American Jewish community.

Do you think that the fight we are seeing right now between Netanyahu and Obama is partly -- obviously, Netanyahu and Boehner have their roles as well -- but partly as a result of this second-term Obama Bulworth, wanting to do what he wants to do?

AXELROD: I think that they clearly had a strained relationship because the president had a view of pushing this peace process forward, and he felt both sides have been difficult in that regard.

I think what's happening right now is largely a consequence of the election in Israel. And I think President Netanyahu saw advantage -- Prime Minister Netanyahu saw advantage in his race, which is two weeks after he visits Washington, or is scheduled to, in terms of stirring up this controversy over the Iranian negotiations.

TAPPER: You don't think, though, he's been freed to be a little bit more...

AXELROD: The president?

TAPPER: Yes.

AXELROD: Oh, I think he's having the time of his life right now.

I think he feels very much unrestrained in terms of speaking to all these issues. But I don't think that's the provocation that led us to where we are now.

TAPPER: No, but do you think it's playing a role, though?

AXELROD: No. I think that this was propagated by Netanyahu and Boehner for their politics.

TAPPER: OK.

In that same 2006 memo that you wrote to then candidate Obama, you wrote about Hillary Clinton. And, of course, at this time, she was going to be your opponent in the Democratic primaries. You wrote that she was not a -- quote -- "healing figure" and that "when she tries to moderate her image, she risks looking like an opportunist."

She is almost assuredly going to be the Democratic presidential nominee. What would you advise her to do to overcome this issue that she's not a healing figure?

AXELROD: First of all, I think part of it is the times are different. She's in a different place, the times are different, the political environment is different. I think the most important thing for her is, I saw her in 2007 as a

poor candidate because she was so cautious, shrouded in this veil of inevitability. Once she lost the Iowa caucuses, she became a different candidate, much less guarded, much more willing to connect with people in a visceral way, much more revealing of herself, much more of an advocate.

That's the person she needs to be to win the election. She needs to project a vision of where she wants to take the country. You have to have a -- your rationale has to lead your candidacy. It didn't in 2008. If she does it this time, I think she can be a very formidable candidate.

TAPPER: Lastly, which Republican do you think poses the biggest threat to Democrats in 2016?

AXELROD: Well, I have said that I think if Governor Bush can navigate his way through the Republican primary process, and not compromise his position on immigration reform and some of the other positions he's taken, he will be a very, very formidable candidate.

But I think that's a big if, because the party -- the center of gravity in the party has been so far to the right that the notion of getting through that process without having to compromise and make Faustian bargains I think is very remote.

TAPPER: The book is "Believer: My Forty Years in Politics."

It really is a very riveting and warm read. You really get a sense of you.

(CROSSTALK)

AXELROD: Thanks. I so appreciate it.

TAPPER: I recommend it to everyone out there, any political junkie especially. But even if you're not a political junkie, it's a good read.

David Axelrod, thanks so much for being here.

AXELROD: Always good to be with you.

TAPPER: We appreciate it.

Coming up on THE LEAD: three Muslim students shot to death near one of the most well-known campuses in the country -- why police say the suspect's Facebook page may reveal his real motive.

Plus, he's pointed out the absurdity of every presidential election since Florida, Florida, Florida in 2000. What are we going to do in 2016 without Jon Stewart making fun of us here at CNN?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. In other national news, a gruesome triple murder in Chapel Hill, North Carolina has become a story generating international concern and outrage.

Police say 46-year-old Craig Steven Hicks shot three students to death in an apartment Tuesday afternoon. All three were Muslims. Two of them were newlyweds.

The crime is horrific enough, but it has been compounded by the growing dispute between police and the victims' families who claim they were murdered because of their Islamic faith. The wife of the accused shooter denied that allegation earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAREN HICKS, WIFE OF ACCUSED: I can't say with my absolute belief that this incident had nothing to do with religion or victims' faith, but in fact was related to the long-standing parking disputes that my husband had with the neighbors.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: As if any of that makes sense. I want to go right to CNN national correspondent, Suzanne Malveaux, who is live in Chapel Hill with the latest. Suzanne, what have people in the neighborhood been telling you about why they think this happened?

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, Jake, it's really interesting because you understand why this is an international story when you talk to the community here because I talked to the friends of the victims and they are convinced that there is something more behind this.

I want to show you just a parking dispute. You still have the vehicles that in the driveways. They are above the condominium of the alleged suspect.

People are debating whether or not this is something of a hate crime or if this is simply a matter of neighbors against neighbors, but it is tragic, it is bizarre and it is unsolved.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX (voice-over): Chilling 911 calls describe a horrifying scene.

UNIDENTIFIED CALLER: I heard about eight shots go off in an apartment. I don't know the number. Then there was nothing. Then I heard about three more shots go off.

MALVEAUX: Three Muslim students shot dead near the campus of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Tuesday night. Chapel Hill Police say they are investigating the possibility the shooting was a hate crime, targeting the three students for their Muslim faith.

The preliminary investigation says the incident began as a dispute over parking, but angry family members insist this had nothing to do with a parking spot. A family spokesperson says the suspect had threatened the victims before. SUZANNE BARAKAT, DEAH BARAKAT'S SISTER: We ask that the authorities investigate these senseless and heinous murders as a hate crime.

MALVEAUX: But his wife has come out saying this has nothing to do with religion.

HICKS: I can't say with my absolute belief that this incident had nothing to do with religion or victims' faith.

MALVEAUX: The alleged shooter, 46-year-old Craig Steven Hicks, turned himself in last night and is being held without bond on three counts of first degree murder.

Hicks, who claims he is an Atheist, allegedly posted anti-religious statements on his Facebook page writing quote, "When it comes to insults, your religion started this, not me. If your religion kept its big mouth shut, so would I."

CNN could not independently confirm the authenticity of the post or his Facebook page. The victims, a 23-year-old dentistry student, Deah Shaddy Barakat, his 21-year-old wife of just over a month, Yusor Mohammad, and her 19-year-old sister, Rozan Mohammad Abu-Salha.

Barakat was a second year student at the UNC School of Dentistry who was raising money on a fundraising site to provide dental care to Syrian refugees in Turkey.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever felt helpless about the situation in Syria and felt like you can't anything about it?

MALVEAUX: Yusor Mohammad, a newly wed, was planning to attend dental school at the UNC in the fall and Abu-Salha was a student at North Carolina State University in Raleigh according to the school. All three were shot in the head, sources told a CNN affiliate. We spoke with a close friend of all three victims.

ASAM RAHMAN, FRIEND OF THE VICTIMS: I would often get annoyed because he was so like -- so loving, so embracing you and everything. His hugs were like a choke hold, but he was just a beautiful guy.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: And the friends that I spoke to there of the slain victims, they say they have never been targeted as a Muslim community. They feel they lived in a community that is loving and supportive but still, Jake, the family of those slain victims are very much suspicious -- Jake.

TAPPER: We will know more in the days ahead as the investigation goes on. Suzanne Malveaux, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Two tremendous vacancies behind the anchor desks, one at the pinnacle of network news and the other at the throne of news mockery. So what's next for Brian Williams? What's next for Jon Stewart? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. Time now for the Pop Culture Lead, the thing about this, you had Letterman and Colbert and Ferguson, Dianne Sawyer, Barbara Walters, it was already a sea change.

But after last night, I mean, you can call it a full on TV tidal wave. Within hours we learned that both Jon Stewart and Brian Williams will not be behind their respective anchor desks for very different reasons.

Let's bring in Bill Carter, the author of "The War For Late Night and Much, Much Else." Bill, good to see you. Jon Stewart announcing his plans to leave "The Daily Show" last night. Here is him hinting at just what he might do when he leaves the anchor desk. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JON STEWART, HOST, "THE DAILY SHOW": I don't have any specific plans. I got a lot of ideas, got a lot of things in my head. I'm going to have dinner on a school night with my family, who I have heard from multiple sources are lovely people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So once he kibitzes with the wife and kids, what's next for Stewart? What do you think he's really going to do?

BILL CARTER, AUTHOR, "THE WAR FOR LATE NIGHT": I think that's really up in the air. Obviously, he took a break to do a film, which he wrote and directed and he may feel that's a skill he wants to explore. I think Jon is a big talent and I think he will find something really interesting.

I think his main thing is he wants to move on and have another act in his career, which by the way is very rare in late night. Most of the time you get a late night show, that's your career ender.

TAPPER: Who do you think is going to replace him?

CARTER: Well, I don't really know and I think it's really up in the air. The name I'm going to throw out is Amy Schumer, who does a show on Comedy Central. I think she's really funny and really, really talented and I think it's time for a woman.

That's why I'm suggesting her although I think really, what this job requires is kind of a different skill set, not just a comedian, but somebody who has a real point of view.

TAPPER: Stewart in one of his most famous and probably emotional monologues after 9/11, he said TV is nothing if not redundant. Obviously very different circumstances, very different tone but this show has existed for nearly two decades. Do you think it can work without him?

CARTER: Yes, look, "The Tonight Show" continued. "The Daily Show" is a format this network has an enormous amount invested in. It was a show before Jon. It will be hard to replace him, really hard.

I really feel for the person who tries. It's an amazingly difficult task. But it's so important to the network. They will get behind somebody and it will continue.

TAPPER: Shifting to the other major media story, NBC barring Brian Williams from the anchor desk for the next six months. Do you think there's anything he could have done differently in the last couple weeks that could have prevented NBC News and Comcast from taking this step?

CARTER: My initial feeling was the night that it broke, he should have come on the air and said instead of whatever, you know, explanation or excuse he made, should have come on and said this was a terrible thing mistake I made and really over the top.

And I don't know how I lost control of this story and I really have to just ask your forgiveness and I will never do it again and been abject that way. Maybe that would have killed some of the attacks, journalism Jihad directed against him. I think as they found out more things, maybe it wouldn't have made any difference. I don't know.

TAPPER: Do you think he will come back?

CARTER: I can't say now. I think they will try to bring him back or they wouldn't have done it this way. We'll have to see how things play out. Stories change. Things always are unexpected, as you can tell in the last 24 hours.

TAPPER: Do you think Lester Holt can deliver the ratings that Brian did?

CARTER: I don't know if he can deliver the ratings, but I know Lester can do a really good job. That's a good choice for them. Get a guy in there who can do a really solid job.

TAPPER: Well, we certainly wish him the best and we wish you the best as well. Bill Carter, thank you so much for joining me.

That's it for THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper. Turning you over to Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM."