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The Lead with Jake Tapper

New Details on Paris Terror Attacks; Terrorist Hit List; Report: Hebdo Terrorist Texted Market Gunman; Gunman Had Gang Past Became Radicalized; U.S. Fights ISIS Propaganda Machine

Aired February 17, 2015 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: The secret U.S. kill list of ISIS terrorists.

I'm Jake Tapper. This is THE LEAD.

The world lead. A State Department spokesman says the U.S. cannot kill its way out of the war with ISIS, but the U.S. has a classified list of ISIS commanders at the top of the terrorist food chain marked for death.

Plus, their acts of terror paralyzed Paris and killed 17 people -- now new details on how the terrorist gunmen coordinated the "Charlie Hebdo" slaughter and kosher market, kosher supermarket massacre over text messages and why they almost called off their deadly plot.

And the national lead, Boston running out of places to pile all the snow. But the messy monsoon of wintry weather has already killed six people. And with more folks sitting in the dark right now, emergency crews are scrambling to prevent the next potential casualties.

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We are going to begin today with our world lead. The U.S. names the ISIS commanders it wants dead or alive. CNN now reporting the U.S. government has a secret list of the ISIS leaders green-lit for kill or capture missions. Number one on the deadly agenda, Abu Bakr al- Baghdadi, the leader of ISIS. Government sources say this came from months of intelligence work, this list, and it's just the latest part of the U.S. effort to annihilate the terrorist group.

I want to go right to Barbara Starr live at the Pentagon.

Barbara, how did U.S. intelligence officials build this list, and will it reshape the coalition air campaign in any way?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, let's get to the air campaign question first, Jake.

You talk about it as a capture or kill list, but let's be clear. The U.S. isn't capturing anybody. The U.S. doesn't have troops on the ground. So, fundamentally, this is a kill list. These are the top ISIS operatives. This list has been in the works, something that top officials have been very aware of for months. But now we're learning more details about it, al-Baghdadi, the leader

of ISIS, number one on the list. It's about two dozen people. You will recall the Pentagon, the military has talked about killing some of the top leaders already. That's about a dozen or so people. But what they're doing is continuing to gather intelligence, add people to the list as other people come off the list from being killed in confirmed airstrikes.

One of the key things about this list, we are told, is they're not just focusing on who we think they may want to get, people like Jihadi John, the British-accented executioner who's been seen in so many of these violent beheadings videos. Yes, they want to get him. But the list focuses fundamentally on the top leadership, the ones who if they could be killed might fundamentally degrade ISIS' operational capability.

Now, however, another complication, as we have all reported and we have seen over the last several weeks, ISIS expanding to areas like Egypt, Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan. What about the ISIS leadership in those countries? Right now, the U.S. doesn't plan to expand its anti-ISIS war to these other countries, but they are going to keep watch very carefully because, again, they want to come back to the central question. Who is out there that, if they could target them, if they could kill that person, fundamentally would make ISIS a less strong organization, Jake?

TAPPER: All right, Barbara Starr at the Pentagon, thank you so much.

Overnight, U.S. and coalition forces struck ISIS targets in Syria and Iraq 14 more times, the Pentagon says. But in the past few days, the war on ISIS has jumped borders to a new front. Egypt sent its pilots to bomb the terrorists inside the country of Libya after ISIS posted video of Egyptian Christians getting beheaded on a Libyan beach.

Today, Egypt's president called for a United Nations resolution to intervene in Libya, saying -- quote -- "There is no other choice" -- unquote -- when it comes to battling ISIS.

Let's go to CNN international correspondent Ian Lee. He's in Al- Minya, Egypt.

Ian, Egypt wants to expand this war. Does that mean that we could see Egyptian troops on the ground in Libya?

IAN LEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, right now, Egypt seems to be content with an air war, striking ISIS targets in the country, but I did speak to a retired general, and I asked him, what would be the conditions where we could potentially see Egyptian troops on the ground? He said, if ISIS continues to expand and pushes up against the border with Egypt -- right now, they don't control the area along the Egyptian border.

They have had militants going toward there. But we haven't seen any cross-border attacks. He says that would be the trigger that we could see Egyptian troops at least creating a buffer zone in Libya to protect the Egyptian country, the Egyptian mainland. TAPPER: Ian, there were reports about more ISIS kidnappings in Egypt.

Do you have any new information about how many people might be in terrorists' hands right now, how many Egyptians?

LEE: Well, the exact number is unknown, but there are estimates that there could be as low as four to dozens of people who have been kidnapped.

We do know that there are still people in ISIS' hands, and this is going to be very dangerous because of Egypt's bombings of the country, of ISIS. Before, we saw them killing and beheading Christians. But now after this, there's threats that they could take Muslim Egyptians who are there too.

And mind you, Egypt has hundreds of thousands of people in Libya. There are many of them there laborers, working jobs there. Egypt urges them to leave, but it will be difficult to evacuate all of those people.

TAPPER: Ian Lee in Al-Minya, Egypt, thank you so much.

While more countries rally around the goal of destroying the terrorists of ISIS, when it comes to paying ransoms to the terrorist groups for the hostages they hold, there are very visible fractures in the coalition.

And CNN chief security national correspondent Jim Sciutto has some new reporting on this rift.

Jim, what can you tell us?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Jake, this is a real disagreement among the closest Western allies. I spoke to a senior British diplomat who described in her words frank discussions between the U.K., who like the U.S. forbids ransoms, and close allies some do pay. And as they do, they fuel a $40 million business for ISIS alone.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO (voice-over): ISIS has asked the families of Kayla Mueller and other hostages for millions of dollars in cash. The U.S. and its allies, united in the air campaign against ISIS, but divided on the crucial question of whether to pay these ransoms.

British and American officials tell CNN they have strong disagreements with some of their closest allies on ransoms. The U.S. and U.K. both consider paying ransoms a form of terror financing, a position that the U.K. makes -- quote -- "frankly," a senior British diplomat tells CNN, to allies who do pay.

On the other side, friendly nations such as France, Italy and Turkey all have been accused of paying large ransoms to ISIS, al Qaeda and other groups, something one former FBI international hostage negotiator says may not be the worst idea. CHRIS VOSS, FORMER FBI HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR: If you put a small amount

of money in their hands, then you get the opportunity to find out all about how they spend money and who they're doing business with. Money is actually remarkably easy to trace.

SCIUTTO: But a State Department spokesman tells CNN kidnapping for ransom is financing a wide array of terrorist groups, including ISIS and al Qaeda and its various affiliates. It's a point the president also emphasized, though he acknowledged the difficulty of telling the victims' families.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's as tough as anything that I do, having a conversation with parents who understandably want by any means necessary for their children to be safe. And we will do everything we can, short of providing an incentive.

SCIUTTO: To date, it's estimated that ISIS alone has earned nearly $40 million from ransoms and the going price for a single Western hostage has now risen above $6 million per person. The mother of slain hostage James Foley said that when the Foleys raised the idea of paying ransom for their son, U.S. officials emphatically warned them away.

DIANE FOLEY, MOTHER OF JAMES FOLEY: We were told we could not raise ransom, that it was illegal, we might be prosecuted.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Countries who do pay say they have an equal legal obligation to protect the lives of their citizens. Another pressure point I'm told by the senior British diplomat is that the timeline on negotiations is collapsing, Jake, hostages now sometimes killed within 24 hours of initial demand being made, far different from the 1980s, for instance, when hostages held by certain groups for years.

That's time to negotiate. There may not be time to negotiate. But the real issue here is a disagreement among allies as to whether paying makes the problem worse. The U.K. and U.S. in lockstep, saying they believe it does.

TAPPER: It's an excruciating dilemma.

Jim Sciutto in Washington, thank you so much.

Our other major world story today, new details on the Paris terrorist attacks and the connection between Amedy Coulibaly and two brothers who attacked the "Charlie Hebdo" headquarters. Investigative sources are now telling a French newspaper that the three terrorists communicated just an hour before the Paris attacks began. Plus, the plot was nearly called off in the final hours.

All the details they have learned from the terrorists' cell phones -- coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

There's some breaking news today on the investigation into the terrorist attacks in France. We have already suspected that the "Charlie Hebdo" terrorists coordinated with the man who would kill a police woman and then attack a kosher supermarket in Paris two days later.

Now comes the proof, text messages sent an hour before the massacre at the magazine offices and a face-to-face meeting on the eve of the attack.

CNN's Deborah Feyerick has been working her sources on this.

Deb, what's the latest?

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, we know that the two men were friends. We know that they were involved in an earlier plot together.

We also know that they were inspired by the same hard-core al Qaeda mentor. Now we now that -- through these texts -- that there was a direct physical link to these men, that it creates a timeline of the attacks and suggested the friends both intended to coordinate the attacks both on the magazine and the Jewish market.

Now, investigators speaking to "Le Monde" says that Cherif Kouachi sent a text to Amedy Coulibaly an hour before the brothers entered that magazine and started that massacre on January 7. The text was sent by Cherif Kouachi to one of 13 phones belonging to his friend.

Coulibaly, a day later, shot a policewoman and went on to storm that Jewish market, killing several people as well as taking the rest hostage. Before any of that, we're now being told through the text messages that the two friends met sometime between midnight and 1:00 a.m., the attack plan was discussed at that time and there was consideration according to investigators speaking to "Le Monde" that the attack be delayed because the elder Kouachi brother Said had some sort of stomach flu. The men decided to go ahead with the attacks anyway and, of course, everyone knows the outcome there.

But it shows that, even though the Kouachi brothers were acting on behalf of al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, Coulibaly was acting on behalf of ISIS. So, it suggests that the friends decided to coordinate the attacks, even though it does not appear right now of any evidence that the two terror organizations, even though they share an ideology were coordinating at that level.

TAPPER: And the larger significance of this I suppose for law enforcement is that these homegrown terrorists don't have to be getting commands or orders from the al Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula or ISIS to coordinate attacks in a way. We haven't seen this before.

FEYERICK: And it also shows an interesting cross-pollination between the two groups. That even though al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula allegedly financed the Kouachi brothers, they seem to have turned around, discussed it with Coulibaly and he decided that he was going to do a similar attack but instead on his own in the name of ISIS. He was even during the attack trying to download some of the video that he had shot to get it out to other sources. And we know that the Kouachi brothers were in touch with authorities during the attack itself.

So, very interesting use of cell phones and communication, but it really shows that the terror organizations, they will -- they don't need a hierarchy as you suggest.

TAPPER: It's chilling information. Deb Feyerick, thank you so much.

There are also new developments in the investigation into the deadly terrorist attacks in Denmark over the weekend. Today, we're learning that the gunman who swore his allegiance to ISIS on what is apparently his Facebook page, he grew up in a hardcore gang culture but then turned to radicalism after he was kicked out of the gang for being too erratic.

CNN's Pamela Brown is now live for us in Copenhagen.

Pamela, you just spoke with an imam who worked at the suspect's prison. Tell us more.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. This is the prison where the suspects were just released from two weeks ago. The imam would not say whether he worked directly with the suspect El-Hussein. But he did say that he's noticed ISIS has influenced inmates there. He says, while radicalization is not widespread, the inmates here in Denmark watch a lot of television, they are influenced by ISIS and they would often go to him and ask him questions about ISIS.

It's interesting in light of the fact we know the suspect in this case pledged his allegiance to ISIS just before the shooting here a few days ago.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But when we --

(GUNFIRE)

BROWN (voice-over): Copenhagen shooter Omar Abdel Hamid El-Hussein used an automatic weapon in his attack, heard here in audio obtained by the BBC. The M-95 like this is a powerful weapon often used by Danish military.

THOMS RATHSACK, FORMER DANISH SPECIAL FORCES: It takes quite a lot of effort to fire, 25, 30 rounds in a row against a target, in order to kill people. So, he used -- my impression is that he was very calm.

BROWN: Danish officials say it's not believed El-Hussein trained with terrorist organization overseas, but just prior to the attack, it appears he swore allegiance to ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, on the shooter's Facebook page. After killing filmmaker Finn Norgaard, wounding three officers, a

Danish prosecutor says two of El-Hussein's associates provided him a place to hide, and a new shirt and another weapon before continuing his attacks to this Jewish synagogue. The two men have been charged.

It's believed El-Hussein was radicalized while serving time in this Copenhagen prison, after he was convicted of a violent crime. In a psychological profile in prison, El-Hussein describes himself as a positive, open, and social person who was calm of temperament.

The report found no suspicion of mental illness. He was released from prison two weeks ago according to officials.

MAGNES VANTHORPE, SWEDISH NATIONAL DEFENSE COALITION: They felt that he was more of a gang member than he was a violent extremist. And they did not keep track of him after he was released.

BROWN: Investigators are looking to see if El-Hussein may have been inspired by the terrorists in Paris who left 15 dead.

The FBI's head of counterterrorism Michael Steinbach recently told CNN copycat attacks are a major concern for U.S. officials as well.

MICHAEL STEINBACH, FBI: They want to conduct an attack just to make the news like their -- like the folks they saw on TV. They may be at one level of intent, but community events or world events at least through their eyes spurs them on to mobilize to conduct an attack.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And we know that right now U.S. authorities are working with Danish authorities scouring the social media, web sites of the suspect, his telephone records, trying to find out if he had any connection with Americans. We're told at this point, there's no nexus to the U.S.

But also, Jake, authorities in the U.S. want to learn from this and try to glean information so they can prevent a similar attack in the homeland -- Jake.

TAPPER: Pamela Brown, thank you so much.

When we come back, how do you battle a terrorist group that is so skilled at propaganda? The Obama administration has admitted it's been a struggle, but they now say that they believe they can by targeting certain communities in the U.S. with information. That new plan, next.

Plus, Nashville hit with its worse ice storm in 20 years. States of emergency issued across the South and the Northeast, digging out from yet another storm, believe it or not. That's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back to THE LEAD. I'm Jake Tapper.

We're going to continue in our world lead, the battle to defeat and destroy ISIS, and the ISIS battle again the West.

President Obama insisting the coalition's military campaign is going well and saying ISIS will lose. But there is another war that the administration is worried about losing, and that is the fight for the hearts and minds of would-be jihadists, mainly in cyberspace.

The ISIS propaganda machine producing up to 90,000 tweets a day, not to mention those slickly produced, those sickening videos, and a call to fight a holy war that, however twisted, is bringing in thousands of recruits from the West.

CNN's Jim Acosta is live at the White House where the administration is trying to counter all of that with a summit today on violence extremism -- Jim.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Jake.

And the White House countering violent extremism summit is just getting under way. And there's already controversy. Critics are even pouncing on the summit's name and wondering where the references to radical Islam.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA (voice-over): With the ISIS cancer spreading quickly to Denmark where gunman's rampage was allegedly inspired by the Islamic State and to Libya, where Egyptian Christians were beheaded, the White House is scrambling to counter a potent terrorist message.

JOSEPH BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We need answers that go beyond a military answer. We need answers that go beyond force.

ACOSTA: Vice President Joe Biden opened up this week's summit on countering violent extremism, talking with U.S. city leaders about the root causes of radicalism with the U.S.-led coalition carrying out air strikes on ISIS, the summit's goals are aimed at the home front, identifying vulnerable communities, brainstorming ways to counter extremist propaganda and sharing the techniques globally.

While it's not singling out ISIS, the Obama administration is ramping up efforts to combat the group on social media, adding staffers to the State Department Center for Strategic Counterterrorism Communications, a U.S. propaganda outfit spreading the campaign "Think Again, Turn Away" on Facebook and Twitter.

And on YouTube, with videos boasting about the U.S. coalition.

President Obama told CNN he wants to win Muslim hearts and minds.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's very important for us to align ourselves with the 99.9 percent of Muslims who are looking for the same thing we're looking for, order, peace, prosperity. And so, you know, I don't quibble with labels.

ACOSTA: But Texas Republican Senator Ted Cruz complains the name of the summit doesn't even mention the word "Islam."

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: The words "radical Islamic terrorism" do not come out of the president's mouth. The word "jihad" does not come out of the president's mouth. And that is dangerous.

ACOSTA: Attorney General Eric Holder says critics are missing the point.

ERIC HOLDER, ATTORNEY GENERAL: We're having this conversation about words as opposed to what our actions ought to be? This is a difficult problem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA: And just before this summit kicked off, senior administration officials were asked why they avoid the term "Islamic extremism." And in the words of one official, this official said, we'll call them terrorists. You call them what you want -- Jake.

TAPPER: Jim Acosta at the White House, thanks.

Let's talk more about the fight against Islamic radicals or terrorists or whatever you want to call them.

CNN national security commentator, Mike Rogers, the former chair of the House Intelligence Committee, joins us now, along with Farah Pandith, a former special representative to Muslim communities for the U.S. State Department.

Both of you, thanks for joining me.

Congressman, let me start with you -- is this really something that can be combated with information -- with an information campaign? I mean, it seems to me that if you want to cut off the head of an innocent aid worker or journalist in the name of any god, there's only so much a public service announcement from Beyonce can do to stop you.

MIKE ROGERS, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY COMMENTATOR: Well, that's certainly right, Jake. In this case, we can I think effectively put together a propaganda, a counter propaganda campaign, but we should do it under those guises. Just like we did in World War II and Vietnam and other places. But it needs to be more aggressive and more pointed to the people they're trying to recruit.

Remember, they're seducing kids, younger kids, to take this step to violent jihad. What is that process? There are ways you can on that continuum from just a worshipper to a jihadist, there's a continuum that you can disrupt along the way. But it has to be on a two-front war. That's where I think the president is missing.

You have to have a propaganda campaign focused, you also have to have engagement militarily to make sure that the organizations that are doing the recruiting don't look and appear like they're winning and are able to I think attract the kind of fighters that they are.

TAPPER: Farah, help us understand why are so many thousands of young Muslims from the West, not to mention from the Middle East, joining ISIS in Iraq and Syria? What is the appeal?

FARAH PANDITH, FORMER SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE TO MUSLIM COMMUNITIES: So, you know, this idea of the narrative of an "us" and "them" that extremists have been using over the past many years manifests itself in a lot of different ways.