Return to Transcripts main page

The Lead with Jake Tapper

Whistleblower: Trump Tried to Get Ukraine to Interfere in Election, and White House Tried to Cover It Up; Acting Spy Chief Says Whistleblower Did the Right Thing; Sources: Trump Compares Whistleblower's Sources to Spies, Makes Reference to Executions Like the Old Days; John Dean Reacts to Whistleblower Complaint. Aired 3:30- 4p ET

Aired September 26, 2019 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

REP. JASON CROW (D-CO): -- addressing kitchen table issues. And we're going to continue to do that. But at the same time we also have a role to make sure that we're maintaining checks and balances. And the people of my community respect that and they want me to uphold my duty.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Do you think that what will no doubt be an incredible contentious partisan process -- we've already seen it happen this week -- will make any success in legislation on those issues you just talked about? Health care, immigration, gun laws impossible. In other words, the Republicans won't work with you in the House. The Republicans won't work with you in the Senate. President Trump won't look at any legislation? Might that be, even though I'm not disputing that you think you're doing the right thing, might that also be a result of this?

CROW: Well, you know, I hope that's not the case and I'm going to fight very hard to make sure that it's not. Just by way of example, yesterday when all of this was really blowing up, I attended my small business committee hearing. The committee level is where the work gets done in Washington. And we passed four small business bills unanimously in that committee.

You know, so there are areas of Congress that work and I'm going to continue to focus on finding ways to work with my colleagues on the other side of the aisle to deliver for my community. I think we can do that and I'm going to work really hard to make sure that we can continue to deliver for folks. But we also fulfill our duty to keep the country safe.

TAPPER: Democratic Congressman Jason Crow of Colorado, thank you for your time, sir. Good to see you.

CROW: Thank you. Good to be on.

TAPPER: Coming, moments ago, we just saw the acting director of national intelligence, he was leaving his testimony. He went behind closed doors and met with the Senate Intelligence Committee. That was after a long day of answering questions in front of the cameras for the House Intelligence Committee. We heard from Maguire earlier today. He said he believed that the whistleblower who came forward acting in good faith. Of course, now the question is, will any of the people named in the whistleblower complaint, be subpoenaed to testify before Congress? Our legal experts will weigh in on who they want to hear from next.

[10:05:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: And we're back with our special coverage on "THE LEAD."

A number of people named in the whistleblower complaint that was released today could now find themselves potentially on a subpoena witness list. Aside from President Trump and the Ukrainian President, the whistleblower specifically names Rudy Giuliani and Attorney General William Barr, U.S. special representative for Ukraine negotiations, Kurt Volker and others who are not specifically named but were on the call.

I want to bring in two CNN legal analysts to get their perspective on the whistleblower's allegations. We have with this former federal prosecutor Laura Coates and Carrie Cordero, who was counsel to the U.S. assistant Attorney General. Laura, let me just start with you. Is it really possible that we could see Giuliani or even Attorney General Barr called before Congress?

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's absolutely possible. Because they have explicitly been named in this function not in a tertiary tangential relationship but actually saying, these two may have been on notice. They may have been complicit in some activity or had some information that goes beyond the scope of the actual complaint. And that's all ripe and fodder for having an investigation.

Which remember, we're hearing an investigatory function. It's not yet and discussion about a trial. It's about trying to get information and going outside the four corners of the actual complaint.

What we're missing here as well is the inspector general of the intelligence community, what is it about his own personal investigation that made him believe it was both urgent and credible? Is there more information that should actually be higher on a list in a subpoena or voluntary capacity? But they absolutely should be somebody whose game for at least at the very least an inquiry as to what they knew when and especially William Barr. He is the Attorney General. If anyone can profess ignorance of the law, it's not him.

TAPPER: And Carrie, some really surprising news earlier today. President Trump behind closed doors -- according to two sources, reported by "The New York Times", the "L.A. Times" and CNN -- described the whistleblower sources, the people in this administration who talked to the whistleblower. As quote, close to a spy, and then he made this kind of long rambling comment about how in the good old days' spies would be dealt with differently. I imagine that's an allusion to the days of Rosenberg's and the like when spies were executed. Would that qualify as witness intimidation?

CARRIE CORDERO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's just -- I mean, first of all for Presidential behavior, it's disgraceful. He is supposed to be leading the executive branch and these are people who are serving their country in public service and working on national security matters. So it's just -- it's disgraceful. It potentially is obstructive behavior, because he is intimidating people who are going to be or could be witnesses in front of a Congressional investigation and in addition to what other investigations might come out of all of this as the facts unravel. So I think it is potentially obstructive behavior as well. And it's important to note this whistleblower followed the law. I mean, this person did everything that they could --

TAPPER: According to Maguire, the acting director of national intelligence, he followed the law.

CORDERO: Exactly. Accord to what he testified today. So this person, this whistleblower followed the law. The individuals who are working in the national security council or the White House or wherever it was that many of them. So over half a dozen provided information to this whistleblower indicates that there were many people in the White House concerned, gravely concerned, with the information that they were seeing taking place.

COATES: You know, the President's comments are exactly why you have a Whistleblower Protection Act. Because it's not just about being singled out for trying to tell the American people and ring the bell, essentially on use of power.

[10:10:03]

Think about a corporation in play who has a consumer issue instead. You protect because we have a vested interest and understanding whether somebody is abiding by the law or whether there's going to be some risks in the national security or otherwise. When the President comes out says, I'm going to essentially ridicule and try to treat you perhaps with executing somebody who actually was trying to prevent a monarchy, separation of powers issue, could actually mean something.

That is a signal to you that this President fundamentally misunderstands, first of all, how hot the water he is currently bathing in. And number two, that this is all about abuse of power. Why would you react to somebody accusing you of abuse of power by saying, well, I'm going to condemn anybody who points out abuse of power? It's completely unethical and nonsensical and yet here's where we are.

TAPPER: And I'm sure that Attorney General Barr knows how un-fond of Attorney General Sessions' decision to recuse himself from the Russia investigation President Trump is?

COATES: Sure.

TAPPER: But I have to say, and I'm a layman, I'm not a lawyer, but he's all over the whistleblower complaint. And he does not seem to have recused himself, at least as far as we've been told, from any of this. The Justice Department, the office of legal counsel, making decisions, weighing in. Wouldn't it just be standard ethical procedure, he's mentioned in this, I'm recusing myself, I'm having nothing to do with it? The deputy's in charge?

CORDERO: You know, they really would need to do an analysis within the Justice Department as to whether or not there's a matter that's before him that would require his recusal. I don't think we have enough information yet to know how involved or whether he was involved in the issuing of the OLC opinion. I think there's an argument that would OLC issue an opinion on this without consulting with him. You know probably is unlikely, but we don't know for sure. The wise thing for him to do would be to consult with the Justice Department lawyers, because he's mentioned in this complaint. But it's a little -- I mean, this is -- acting DNI Maguire is correct that this is an unusual case.

TAPPER: Yes.

CORDERO: And so this is not just like your everyday investigation.

TAPPER: This is binding? I mean, if he asks the Justice Department ethics lawyers what they thought, wouldn't that be a binding decision?

CORDERO: No, he can take their advice or not take their advice. I mean, there is some discretion that's provided to him.

TAPPER: All right, Laura Coates and Carrie Cordero, thanks so much for your expertise. We really appreciate it.

He was the former White House counsel who warned of a cancer on Richard Nixon's presidency. Does John Dean think that there is any John Dean in the Trump administration? Somebody who might issue the next warning. He joins me next.

[10:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN DEAN, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: I began by telling the President that there was a cancer growing on the presidency and if the cancer was not removed the President himself would be killed by it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: That was former White House counsel to President Richard Nixon, John Dean. Who famously testified before Congress that President Nixon knew about the Watergate cover-up. Testimony widely considered to be the testimony that took down Nixon ultimately. John Dean joins me now. Thanks so much for joining us, Mr. Dean. If you were President Trump's counsel right now, what would you advise him?

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, actually today I'd have an obligation to go in, White House counsel, his client is the office of the President, not the person to occupy, the office. So Pat Cipollone should be going in there and doing what I tried to do in an hour and 50-minute conversation. Where I tried to take the President through every problem, he confronted with the Watergate cover-up and sell him on hoping he would bring his fist down on the table and say this has got to end. He did exactly the opposite, Jake. This is the morning I think I first met Richard Nixon, actually.

TAPPER: Based on the facts of what we know now, not the speculation, but just the facts of the whistleblower complaint, which, you know, it's not, has not been 100 percent corroborated. We don't know what to be fact. It might be credible but we don't know it to be fact. Based on released transcript, do you think that there is a cancer growing on the Trump presidency?

DEAN: I think there is very much a cancer growing on this presidency. There's a malignancy that has spread, that is spreading. We have a President who doesn't seem to even care if this is happening. He has broken every norm that we know of, that are the traditional guardrails for the presidency. He just doesn't seem to care about tradition. I don't think he has any knowledge of the presidency, Jake. He has no historical background.

So he just plows ahead as if he were still in the real estate business and doing deals with people that he is not really in a position to do those kind of deals today. He has laws he has to obey. He has a constitution he operates under.

[10:20:00]

He doesn't seem to appreciate any of this or care to put himself in a circle of people who will advise him what he should and shouldn't do.

TAPPER: You tweeted yesterday before the whistleblower complaint was released. Quote, Giuliani is not Trump's private lawyer -- Trump pays him nothing -- rather Rudy is a lawyer who has become Trump's co- conspirator. They're using the attorney/client privilege to hide criminal behavior but it can't be used for that purpose. Sad day that lawyers back at core of scandal.

Based on what you now have seen in the whistleblower complaint, can Giuliani use attorney/client privilege to not answer questions?

DEAN: No. There's no way. We have -- there's also a crime fraud exception that does not allow an attorney to hide behind that and have the conversations privilege. But just basically the arrangement is not that of an attorney/client. I haven't checked all the pleadings but the few I didn't see -- I didn't see Rudy's name on any of them. He's not filing documents. He is a friend of the President who is using this cover. I don't think Rudy's even practicing law. I don't even know if his law license is active. So I don't think there is any privilege here. Although the president certainly has a privilege with private attorneys. He does not have a privilege however with his White House counsel. Another reason that he may have concern about who he's dealing with in the White House.

TAPPER: What was your response when you heard "The New York Times" reporting, which CNN and the "L.A. Times" have also confirmed? The "L.A. Times" has a recording of it -- of President Trump talking about how those in his administration who provided information to this whistleblower were close to a spy and in the old days, spies would be dealt with differently, which seems to be a clear illusion to execution.

DEAN: Well, you know, again it shows how uninformed he is about the process. The people who get on to the National Security Council. And this is clearly not his staff but the National Security Council staff that's involved in all of this. You can tell from the written documents and the knowledge levels and the way they approach these issues.

And they have been so closely vetted that there is no way one of them could be a spy. These people have had to fill out forms that are massive and take a long time to form out -- fill out. It's standard operating procedure. It's the form that Trump's children had trouble filling out and didn't fill all the blanks in. These are not spies. These are people who are offended by his abuse of the process.

TAPPER: I think you're referring to Jared Kushner, his son-in-law there. John Dean, thank you so much for your time.

DEAN: Yes.

TAPPER: Really appreciate it.

Did today change House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's plan for an impeachment inquiry? While the acting Director of National Intelligence was testifying, she was talking about her plans. Stay with us.

[10:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

T(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): This is a cover-up. This is a cover-up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi not mincing words. Using strong language against President Trump and White House aides as Democrats in House move forward with an impeachment inquiry. This comes as House Republicans leadership calls the inquiry, quote, reckless and irresponsible. Let's go now to CNN Sunlen Serfaty, live for us on Capitol Hill. Sunlen, if the Speaker is making the case for impeachment now, how is she going to do that?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well Speaker Pelosi today, Jake, making it very clear that the House Intelligence Committee is going to be the one to take the lead here, take over the reins in this impeachment inquiry. And it's going to be very narrowly focused on this whistleblower's complaint. She said other six committees who were already investigating President Trump, they'll continue to do so, but this topic now is the main focus. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): IMPEACHMENT. This is the President of the United States that had a conversation with a leader in another country. Never before has a President had to put forth their conversation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERFATY: And there was Kevin McCarthy, the House Republican leader there. And that gives you the indication, Jake, about how the President's defenders and allies are coming to his defense on Capitol Hill today. We have seen very, very few cracks in that Republican armor, so to speak. Most notably Republican Mike Turner and the committee today said that conversation is not OK but very few Republican criticisms otherwise -- Jake.

TAPPER: And it does seem as though, Sunlen, a lot of the House Republicans are sticking with the President, but Senate Republicans not necessarily any different.

SERFATY: That's right. And we have seen very few Republicans be critical at all, most notably Senator Mitt Romney and Senator Ben Sasse who both have said in recent days that these -- the whistleblower's complaint is very troubling, but that's as far as they would go.

TAPPER: All right, Sunlen Serfaty on Capitol Hill, thank you.

TAPPER: Welcome to a special edition of "THE LEAD." the White House in crisis. I'm Jake Tapper.

In less time than what would be your typical school day, today we've seen allegations from an intelligence community whistleblower that the President of the United States, according to the whistleblower, abused his power by leaning on a foreign leader to investigate Trump's political rival.

[16:00:00]